[0:00] Molly Lewis: practices based on the research evidence we have school-based mental health services with an embedded model so we see ourselves as more than just a clinic sitting inside of a school but really being in relationship with the schools making sure that we're serving the whole school even if the therapists have a certain number of kids on their case load that they're providing support to teachers and meeting and IOP meetings and meeting with Administration and providing training and other support all the time so we make sure that there's time for that in the infrastructure and we're in four school districts um white be Lake Roseville Mounds View and now St Anthony in New Brighton then we have our adolescent day treatment program actually known as the Nets program it's been around for a very long time our day treatment program provides more intensive care to adolescents uh both [0:45] Molly Lewis: middle school and high schoolers that are struggling to be able to make the gains they need to within their schools and so they're in half dayare with us every day and then the other half of the day they receive um educational services so we're they're typically with us longterm really about a year and day treatment services are the services that are most threatened right now there's a lot of day treatment programs closing and that's because they're really hard to make work financially because the reimbursement rates are very low and what's heartbreaking about that is that this is the only level of care that allows youth to stay in their home and stay in their Community the next options are either outpatient which is often not enough one time a week for an hour or uh residential or being impatient at a hospital so so this sort of long-term [1:31] Molly Lewis: intensive support is really unique we're working really hard to be able to keep it afloat at NFS and then our community services program we have our youth diversion program which we've had around Forever This is where we have youth that are referred to due to offenses such as theft drug use Etc the youth that come to this program don't have to have been charged they have to engaged in offense and the goal is to work with them as early as possible when they're vaping in the bathroom and and a teacher catches them rather than when there is necessarily criminal engagement because we want to be preventing more serious um more serious criminal conduct um we have a restorative practice model it's an alternative to the traditional justice system and we work both with youth and [2:17] Molly Lewis: their families to kind of get underneath what's going on provide case management referrals uh we do seminars that are educational we'll do you know drug testing if needed um they often end up writing apology letters there's all those pieces is uh to the program and then our community connections program which is pretty new and we've now been able to expand so we're really excited about this this program was initially provided just to youth in our diversion program but we've seen such incredible Community need we've now been able to expand that to anybody and so this program was created by the youth in our programs they said we really need a place to perceive a brighter future and we would need some educational and employment support we need to you know figure out what a budget is and learn some life skills so they do all of the [3:02] Molly Lewis: stuff in the community um they go volunteer they meet with a mentor and do an interview about a job they're interested in they create a budget so they can try and understand what actually costs to live um in our communities and so we've had almost 100% attendance at every single one of our groups for this program and Adolescence don't don't do that they don't consistantly show up you know on time with investment anywhere it's just because of how you know how they created what it is that they're using so we're doing those groups at least every quarter and trying to increase the frequency of those and then our community advocacy program you know we work with White Bear Lake and for other law enforcement agencies to co-create Public Safety the goal of this program is really to take those repeated contacts with law enforcement and provide care outside of the scope of law enforcement by doing case management [3:48] Molly Lewis: working on really a range of issues homelessness um uh neighbor disputes getting people reconnected to mental health support I mean there's really a range so as I said we've had this year of really getting stabilized and orienting to the Future I'm really proud of the work that the organization has done of the support that our community has shown for us to get reentered and reoriented and so we have the new brand Mission Vision Values and our strategic plan we've launched play Therapy Services um really deepening the quality of the services that we're providing at the organization we've expanded school-based Mental Health and added Ardon Hills as a municipal partner we've launched Community connections within the whole [4:34] Molly Lewis: community so all things I've shared already um we've also done a bunch of investing in our physical location the building had um needed a little bit of love so we've been doing a lot of those things some big things like a new Chiller and some other things like you know facelift sort of stuff with our um paint and carpet and those kinds of things um we reopened our White Bear Lake Clinic location full-time and we re renovated the whole Space to be trauma informed so for those of you that got a chance to see that it's really now in the walls and we also developed a very robust internship program which we're very excited about as part of the pathways to make sure that folks get into the field and stay so we have um a new program called the steps program that also provide stipend specifically to um students of color that would otherwise maybe not be um as well [5:21] Molly Lewis: supported while they're trying to do an unpaid internship so where are we headed so we are going to continue to expand the size of a clinic based therapy team we've hired 17 therapists in the last 12 months which is incredible or 18 months um and we intend to continue to fill up that white be Lake space to therapists that we have a lot of services to offer we're adding group therapy services because we're more able to serve a greater number of people with fewer resources and groups and then we're really excited to announce that we're launching Domestic and Sexual Violence services so we received a big Grant from the office of Justice programs crime victim services to support us launching this program we're going to have two Advocates that'll be a part of the team with the community advocate so the three of them will be a team together one will be focused on General crime with adults [6:08] Molly Lewis: one will be focused on youth all different forms of you know domestic sexual violence and general crime and another one will be adult focused just Domestic and Sexual Violence so um we're really excited to continue to partner with White Bear Lake and to take those referrals help F folks get connected to the services they need navigate the legal system and then get stabilized and passed off hopefully to our Therapy Program where we're going to have two specialized therapists working with youth and adults um on these issues so that that is what I've got I'm open to questions [6:45] Mayor Dan Danieki: thank you very much for that report and I'll extend a heartfelt thank you for all the good work that you do in the community it's an important resource and we're happy to have you in the community council do we have any questions for Miss Lewis [6:57] Council Member Bill Walsh: Dello council member thank you at some point since we had two of our council members as past board members of the organization if there's any insights that they can share i' certainly welcome hearing that but it's not required um so I appreciated the programmatic updates what are your financial strategies I um didn't see a mention of so how do we ensure the sustainability of the organization going forward and I don't have a single bone to pick with any of the program things I want them to be around What can you tell us about that [7:34] Molly Lewis: yeah so one of the things the major challenge we've had is that um NFS had not rec contracted with commercial or State Insurance uh since the late 90s and so our insurance contracts were severely depressed compared to our peers [7:45] Molly Lewis: and Rec Contracting with insurance companies is very difficult because they don't reply to your emails or calls because that will mean that they have to pay more so we spent uh about nine months trying really hard to get reach outs to the insurance companies and that puts that depresses everything within the organization depresses salaries it you know it there's a trickle down effect of that and insurance already doesn't reur at rates that are sustainable so after about nine months of not having a success sending you working with an attorney sending lots of emails and phone calls um and no one getting back to us at all um we ended up Contracting with a company that does this specifically and renegotiates uh with the insurance companies last spring and I am very happy to report that has been extremely successful um apparently [8:31] Molly Lewis: that's what it took and so we've been able to renegotiate with three of the four major commercial insurance companies that we work with we've been able to make sure that all the rates we're getting from the U Minnesota Department of Human Services are accurate because we were being underpaid in some ways because of some administrative errors and um and we're and that's going to kind of make I think the biggest difference in terms of our long-term sustainability is that we need to at least be paid equal to our peers for the specialized work that we're doing so we're working on on negotiating with the final insurance company and then we'll just need to kind of keep at this annually to make sure that they keep pushing um right now there isn't parity Mental Health Providers are not paid based off of their level of education at similar rates to Medical providers even with the same education [9:17] Molly Lewis: so we've got some work to do in terms of the parity side to make sure that our systems can be sustainable but it's looking it's looking up for sure so I'd say that's the the major thing I would say the other couple things are we've done a bunch of investing in our uh development program and specifically working on bringing in individual donors we're restarting our leadership lunch in this spring I hope all of you will join and investing in making sure that you know our community sees the work that we're doing and where possible can join us and supporting it and then the third piece is the organization has underinvested in um in grant writing and getting community and umu community and corporate Foundation giving which is really good giving because it's unrestricted you can put it wherever the [10:03] Molly Lewis: programs need it um often the reporting requirements are not as onerous as Government contracts are and it's often year-over-year funding so we've been really successful we've almost tripled the amount of grant funding we've gotten in the last 18 months and that will just get better so so I think we're we're getting there um I think the other piece is owning the building we've had to do some work to make sure that we're actually investing in the building as a business and I think that is um uh been really successful [10:44] Council Member Bill Walsh: the um so I noted about the Adolescent day uh day treatment program when I think about the costs inflicted on families as well as on society when um young people are not do are not given the opportunity to get whole MH all right um that's massive it's a not just a a social cost and a personal cost it's a financial cost you mentioned that you um were having some challenges around financing that can you say more and what's how do you how do you think about what it takes to sustainably um provide that service and assist people who have that need um and how are you dealing with that challenge what can you tell us [11:34] Molly Lewis: yeah so there's a lot of layers to that I mean the first is um much of the ways in which we're able to to Bill or not bill for those services are based off of Statute and so very simple things like there is a statute that says that we can't bill if the client is 7 minutes late and that means that we can't bill a whole hour out of their 3 hours of time and most of the clients are on disability transport and so they're not arriving necessarily on time it's not their fault it's not their parents fault and then often the transport isn't showing up to pick them up until an hour or two hours after the programming is over so we're watching them and that's unpaid time for the program so there are things like that that I'm working um with nami I'm working with Minnesota DHS to advocate [12:21] Molly Lewis: for statutory changes because those things are part of why programs are closing it used to be 16 minutes now it's or 15 or 16 minutes then they dropped it down to 7 16 or 15 or 16 is is much more feasible right um also just the reimbursement rates in general are very low for all group group services and group services are much better use of of uh dollars and so that's part of the other piece and then I would say within the actual programming part of what we're doing is really trying to to tighten up our processes so that we can make sure that we have the right number of clients and the right number of seats and the right number of staff to ensure that we're maximizing uh the revenue that we get in the door and our mission the number of [13:07] Molly Lewis: clients that we're able to serve but the in the structure of those programs what what the statutes say how all of that is set up is extremely restrictive and uh that's one of the major barriers that we have is that we have to see some legislative policy changes to be able to to really make it possible for those programs to break even and that's all we're trying to do is get to a place where we can break even so what does success with that program look like and what how do you monitor it's a new program so I'm not expecting but what kinds of U um what kinds of changes in the world should be different if you achieve success so with the clients the way that we see success is their I mean first and foremost [13:53] Molly Lewis: reducing the symptoms that they're coming in with increasing their functioning in a variety of settings for them to be be able to be in mainstream schools with other kids and be able to regulate um their responses to things that happen in their environment and then we see big picture I mean that kind of building blocks of a healthy Society a big part of this is we see the work that we do with youth as preventative so they can you know engage in education they engage in the workforce they can be productive members of society that those things and um and that those things you know especially defined by the youth are the way that they want to be successful and so we really see the work we're doing as as facilitating that as not just planting the seeds but really helping give the youth the skills they need to be successful in those different [14:39] Molly Lewis: environments [14:40] Council Member Bill Walsh: okay so this colleagues I would note that we sometimes have our own legislative agendas and there may be some Allied organizations that we might want to consider co uh co championing uh as part of that my last question so as you look around the Northeast Metro the region you serve perhaps particularly Whitebear Lake um your office tier you have people here regularly what's happening with the whole issue of mental health among our residents uh in this region or in this city and what are the trends and where do we have Reason for Hope should we be on edge and despairing what's uh um [15:25] Molly Lewis: yeah should we have our own generalized anxiety so I would want to be able to report that things were significantly better than what I reported last year but we're still in the midst of kind of pulling out of the effects of the pandemic with particularly with youth so the the two major themes that we continuing to be challenged by first is that we're seeing much greater Acuity CL uh youth clients are coming in with much higher symptoms much longer symptoms and much more deterioration uh than we would like um and there are not a lot of safety net mental health organizations anymore a lot of them have closed so part of what we're dealing with is that there are private practices and group practices [16:11] Molly Lewis: but in those environments the providers can decide uh who to serve and who to not serve and the trickle down impact of that is that nonprofit mental health organizations like NFS we serve everybody and so we often end up get being the safety net and getting the the most severe cases that have gone the longest without the level of care that they need and so we have long weight lists we have you know we've been able to with the hiring keep up with our weight list this year which I'm really proud to report um it's never it's not gotten as long as it was when I started which was almost six months of a wait now we have on average maybe two to four weeks um depending on if we've just onboarded someone sometimes less so we've done a lot to be able to provide [16:57] Molly Lewis: responsive care so that's very hopeful and I think that that's that's true across a lot of um settings I would say the other challenge is that we still have a depleted Workforce and not enough people going into school to get the education and then the ler they need to provide care so part of the work that we're doing at NFS is is a lot of like mentoring and informational interviews and going into schools and talking with high schoolers about mental health as an option so they can start mapping so maybe six years from now we're in better shape um and then I would say the other trend is that we're just still seeing a great deal of social isolation a lot of the ways in which people coped with the pandemic you know that coping has has not changed and so um and that affects [17:42] Molly Lewis: people's mental health symptoms across a variety of different mental health concerns so the more ways that we can get people out in in community and finding people that have shared interests it doesn't necessarily have to be formalized Mental Health Services but the better that is for people's ongoing mental health thank you yeah [18:01] Mayor Dan Danieki: Council any final questions? [18:03] Council Member Bill Walsh: council member W I'll I'll um to to follow on that just as a former board member um I like what I'm hearing I like the the one of the challenges for nyf always has been focused it's and I I bring I brought guests to the leadership luncheon and they walk away and say well what do that they do what do you guys do and so I I saw in the first part of the for presentation a lot more focus and I think that's key and uh we do a lot of things for a lot of different [18:29] Council Member Bill Walsh: populations are we the you know diversion program are we for youth well we have we have you know family counseling too available so focus is always the key and then then the last slide you're growing into another whole area well okay we lost Focus there but I like the area so I'm not going to say it's bad but that's kind of my observation I think there's more focus and I I appreciate that [18:50] Molly Lewis: we see it as within the umbrella of our of our trauma inform Services the specialization Domestic and Sexual Violence rather than as an extension of new program progamming but that is really true about NFS over the years has been kind of this well we're just we're responsive we're just going to do whatever somebody needs and we're not going to necessarily have a plan for how we're going to sustain funding for that particular focus and so we've had a lot of programs that have started and [19:15] Molly Lewis: stopped over the years and we really really don't want to do that we really want to be able to be very firm about what we can do and what we can sustain financially long term so thank you for that feedback [19:26] Mayor Dan Danieki: very good Council any final questions? [19:28] Council Member Dan Jones: I don't have a final question uh thank you Mr Mayor I don't have a final question but just again congratulations you continue to do a great job it's always interesting to come to a board meeting because she's like on top of it knows everything and it's like wow I wow things that I wouldn't have expected any CEO to know about and you have got it all down and not only is it down it that eyes are dotted and tees are crossed and so as a board member it's really nice to you know when you when you offer your opinion I know that it's well thought out and and what we're presented with is always something that's very thorough so [20:00] Council Member Dan Jones: I think you've it's clear you've been running the organization that same way and I know that we benefit here at the city so thank you [20:06] Mayor Dan Danieki: very good thank you thank you you like to all right Council I'd entertain a motion to approve the resolution authorizing execution of both the social services agreement and Community Advocate Services agreement so moved motion to Second any further discussion seeing none all those in favor say I I any opposed motion carries resolution is approved all right excuse me item 5B we've got a presentation from some familiar faces come on [Music] up [20:43] Doug Bean: hello Council I uh Doug bean I live in wer Lake I was on the council for uh a few years you council member Jones when I started the council 14 years ago you were one of the most senior people on the council at that time right right now you are the most senior person on the council I want to thank you for your uh guidance and advice um throughout my uh tenure and I very much appreciated it I appreciated the effort and the work you put in uh for the citizens of wer Lake and the job that you did was phenomenal in my in my opinion and I just wanted to take this opportunity to uh come here and give you my my best regards and thank you very much and I had a two-hour presentation but I [21:31] Doug Bean: decided to cut it down to yeah all right thank you for letting me speak [21:33] Council Member Heidi Hughes: um I wrote mine down because I didn't want to forget anything but I do want to thank Dan for his service to White Bear Lake you've represented ward 3 for 16 years and as Doug said when we came on you were our senior Statesman that's what I would would say Dan is our senior Statesman and uh you know and you helped Mr edberg and Mr Bean and I when we showed up it was good to have somebody here that had sort of been broken in and knew the rules so it helped um you've always been fair with people you've been direct and sometimes blunt but you will [22:19] Council Member Heidi Hughes: own the blunt when you've been blunt you own it so but you've done a great job and you and your lovely wife Sally have raised three amazing young women that are all now on their gone off to their own lives and doing their own things and they're amazing amazing people but I want people to know he's a talented illustrator remember the no Bear Hugs signs and t-shirts Etc that was Mr Jones and my favorite is the bear on the water tower when you see that bear that's Dan's work too um my favorite story though is I I hope you remember this one night we were having a discussion and a lady in the audience C Shout out so do any of you people even live in the city and we all just were stunned we and then all of a sudden Here [23:06] Council Member Heidi Hughes: Comes This quiet voice Mr Jones goes yeah it's kind of a requirement and then we all burst out laughing but I mean I mean it's just it's it's just been an amazing journey I thank you for everything you've done I thank you it was a privilege and a pleasure to serve with you I thank you for your leadership and most importantly for your friendship good luck my friend friend thank you madam we are leaving now maybe we'll see you next week I'm sure there's cake somewhere police sure [23:43] Mayor Dan Danieki: and I'll note of course we'll have more of a formal presentation uh at our next council meeting but I wanted to wanted to oblige those that wanted to speak nothing but good things all right very good okay let's jump jum into item 6A the 2024 final budget tax levy and truth and Taxation hearing Miss Crawford whenever you're ready [24:08] Lindsey Crawford: thank you um mayor members of the council um so we have a robust uh presentation tonight um and some slides so um I'm going to present the 2024 general fund and other operating budgets as well as the 2024 tax levy and 2023 revised general fund budget um after the presentation the city council will hold the truth and Taxation hearing um and finally um the city council will then adopt the budgets and the tax levy so at the September 12 city council meeting the preliminary budget and tax [24:40] Lindsey Crawford: levy were um when they were presented we talked about what it takes to build a budget and I'd like to just summarize that a little bit tonight so maintaining a vibrant uh healthy Community is a bit like a sailboat uh it takes um all parts uh to make a sailboat move as it should and without each of those parts the boat Won't Sail as well as it could um each component is better able to serve its function because of the other parts that work with it the city has many departments and divisions that help make our community vibrant and a desirable place to live work and visit those departments can be compared to a sailing vessel um that moves steadily and safely forward but in order for that vessel to um move forward on course and ensure it [25:27] Lindsey Crawford: can weather the storms that cross its path it's important to invest in the maintenance of each piece to ensure the Integrity of the whole boat um in this case each piece um on the left side of the screen uh represents the department uh a department in the city so as we approach um the budget cycle each year we take a holistic look at the organization or our vessel and balance how we uh divide our resources between each department to ensure that uh thorough uh careful planning and excuse me to ensure that through careful planning and investment each piece is properly maintained um and to better serve the city as a whole so it's with that lens that the finance department department heads and uh and I [26:14] Lindsey Crawford: put together the annual budget analysis and recommendations um so this is our budget timeline each year staff spends the entire year monitoring the existing years's budget as well as preparing and drafting the next year's budget um the dates that are in bold are the steps in the process that the city council is involved in we'll finish it on the next slide and throughout the year um the the public is invited to engage with the city our elected officials and staff through many different ways um for example public meetings such as tonight um phone and email news and events [26:59] Lindsey Crawford: newsletters and more Public Notices email subscriptions and um our social media sites um just like every year staff followed uh specific budget um commitments when creating the 202 2024 budget and they include supporting a public safety model that is oriented to being proactive preventative and prepared while meeting Staffing support and facility needs maintaining a 10 year Capital Improvement plan 10-year financial management plan maintaining a fund balance of not less than 35% of the next year's budgeted operating expenditures and gradually eliminating Reliance on LGA to support uh operating um [27:45] Lindsey Crawford: items so um after this presentation there will be a truth and Taxation hearing and the purpose of a TNT hearing is to provide a summary of the next year's operating budget which we call our general fund explain property tax implications of the budget and allow for citizen comment so moving in excuse me moving into right into the 2024 general fund budget when looking at significant Revenue changes for next year uh we are looking at a uh decrease in building permit revenues now that all School District permits have been issued or projects are completed um interest Revenue new estimates for the year are an extrapolation of uh allocated earnings [28:31] Lindsey Crawford: based on the average cash balance as of uh June 30th and reduction in the payment management fund transfer to for uh of support for the engineering operations previously embedded in the payment management fund when we look at significant expenditure changes um uh they include ambulance operations is moving from an Enterprise fund to the general fund um as you just heard Insurance uh companies um do not reimburse at the rate that it takes to cover that service the addition of two full-time firefighter paramedics the addition of one facility maintenance technician position um Emerald Ash Bor diseased and dying tree removal program um which [29:18] Lindsey Crawford: would be ongoing for the next 7 to 8 years uh salary adjustments per the classification and Compensation Plan and adopted labor agreements which all include benefit factors and a cost of living adjustment of 3% critical incident Appropriations and an increase in miscellaneous technology cost and contract cleaning services other items of note um in the 2024 General budget include um their Public Safety facility Debt Service so the city issued debt um in order to provide funding for the public safety facility renovation and Expansion Project um our arpa um receipts of covid Aid plan uh Co federal aid during the pandemic years's sustained operations [30:05] Lindsey Crawford: and held property tax tax levies at a lower level the federal aid has concluded now um which Returns the burden of budget support to both tax and non-t tax revenues and a local government Aid the 2023 legislative session produced an LGA program formula adjustment and funding increase so as a result um the city's LGA allotment to the city increased by about $467,000 staff recognizes and the council acknowledges that you know while things um are stable now this is not always may not always be the case at the state level so in the future it may require a higher tax levy um should the sustainability of that go [30:53] Lindsey Crawford: away so when we look at a property tax levy why right why why do we have a property tax levy property tax levies support operations in the city's General funds revenues and expenditures within the budget impact the general funds fund balance it is essential that cities maintain adequate levels to their fund balance to mitigate risks of Revenue shortfalls or unanticipated expenditures and ensure Financial stability um the city of wiper Lake analyzes our fund balance in ways the state auditor the first one is the state auditor recommends that cities keep a minimum of five months operating costs uh on hand and accessible to cover [31:40] Lindsey Crawford: on anticipated costs the second is tracking the fund balance to ensure funds are available to pay claims in the first half of each year since the city receives uh its first dispersement of property taxes um tax payments in and state aid in June or July of each year the 2024 budget meets both of those standards and the general fund is financially stable uh the city council adopted a preliminary tax levy at their September 12 meeting so once a preliminary Levy is set it may be reduced before final adoption however it may not be increased so therefore uh council members did request staff further [32:26] Lindsey Crawford: analyze upcoming budgetary needs to find any potential reductions before the final um tax levy is adopted which will be tonight so you'll see on the screen that we started with um an increase of 22.55% through additional analysis um we got that down to 20.8 2% and with one final um uh analysis we uh now have that down to 20.57% um uh so that reflects a 15.04% uh increase uh for operations with 4.67% of that increase for ambulance [33:13] Lindsey Crawford: services and 5.53% of that increase is due to the public safety facility Debt Service um so therefore as I said um this year's total tax levy reflects a 20.57% um increase over the previous year's Levy and the tax capacity rate for that Levy is 27.2 63% so when we take it when we take a look at property taxes um where do they go several entities assess taxes to properties for every property tax dollar paid approximately 18 cents is collected by the city of Whitebear Lake the remainder is then divied up uh among uh [33:58] Lindsey Crawford: Ramsay and Washington counties the school district and other agencies which include various Watershed districts and the Metropolitan Council so when we pull out the city's portion of that that 18 cents if you will and we take a look at where does the city spend your property tax dollars um the median home value for 2024 is $312,000 which is approximately a 1.96% value increase and that Val uh homes properties are valued by the county assess County auditor access assessor I'm sorry the city does not assign property values to properties in 2024 a median valued home [34:43] Lindsey Crawford: would pay $825 180 for the entire year in city taxes and for that price the property owner receives exceptional quality of life in Whitebear Lake including 27 uh 24/7 police response 24/7 fire and Emergency Medical Response Street Maintenance sweeping lighting snow plowing Parks access and recreation activities election activities access to City Publications as well as access to elected officials and City staff um here is a comparison of our Revenue collection per capita with comparable cities this includes the 2024 levies um some [35:30] Lindsey Crawford: cities are still adopting their levies so this is these numbers are subject to change um you'll see that wiper lake has a greater population than some of these cities yet a smaller tax levy and so this means that our per capita Revenue collection is at the bottom of the list at $540 okay um then this uh shows 5 years of Levy his history for comparable cities including estimated Levy increases for 2024 white be Lake remains right at the bottom with where we have historically been with our comparable cities although we are beginning to catch up our 2024 Levy increase is still less than what [36:16] Lindsey Crawford: New Brighton was last year and less than Shore views in 2020 in addition to the general fund we have several other budgets at funds that um do not have an impact on the tax levy excuse me and being that the city council will adopt those budgets as well I did want to um just show what those other funds are and some projects um for 2024 so we have water surface water arpa municip building um just to note you'll see that City Hall window replacement is listed twice it's supposed to be listed twice as it's two funds that are paying for that next slide um we also have Park Improvement [37:02] Lindsey Crawford: fund pavement management fund Economic Development and the sewer fund other um funds that are not identified on this slide include the refug fund Marina forfeiture sports center community reinvestment license bureau and Pioneer Manor um and there's not significant items of note in those 2024 budgets so I did not list them here the 24 budget um that presented tonight includes the addition of a Communications specialist um which would be effective halfway through the year that position will assist the city in meeting the Public's expectations related to transparent communication provide crisis and critical incident Communications relieve existing staff [37:48] Lindsey Crawford: pressure many are in the room today um in providing quality and informative content in addition to their regular responsibilities coordinate website updates create bi the biannual newsletter engage with Community stakeholders as well as represent the city um and by attending Community special events uh lastly the the fund that does not have an impact on the tax levy is our equipment acquisition fund um and some of the um notable replacement items um all of these items are replacement for Fleet for next year are called out on on the screen here so see we're looking at four police squads one fire uh two streets one Parks um police squad [38:35] Lindsey Crawford: equipment Replacements fire SCBA um filling Compressor replacement the ambulance replacement maintenance equipment replacements for streets and parks activities um Public Safety facility Fitness room equipment replacement and uh as well as um earmarking for finance software replacement so when we take a look at the 2023 revised General budget um the city council adopted the 2023 general fund budget with a planned deficit of about $670,000 um which was made possible due to the use of the unrestricted Surplus cash in the general fund fund balance the 2023 revised budget [39:21] Lindsey Crawford: eliminates the need to use the Surplus due to various position vacan in multiple departments and higher year-to date revenues in some accounts the as of now the preliminary revised budget anticipates a surplus of $76,900 we were able to provide to provide and is not sustainable um the last two slides in the presentation includes several property tax assistant programs provided by the state and counties all those programs um that are listed in the next two slides um generally are available each year and we have links and phone numbers and we can share these out um I realize that you can't capture all of that right now so when we look at our recommendations for tonight staff recommends the city council hold the truth and Taxation hearing and subsequently adopt the attached resolutions as presented um which are adopting the 24 budget 23 revised budget and the 2023 tax levy for [40:42] Lindsey Crawford: taxes collectible in 24 as well as committing fund balances for specific purposes so with that um staff uh can stand for any questions [40:54] Mayor Dan Danieki: thank you thank you Miss Crawford before we get to questions why don't we jump right into the public hearing we'll hold the truth and Taxation hearing now I have two names on the list any one who would like to speak now is the opportunity to come forward to the mic please state your name and address for the record um I'm going to start with Andrea mcke we'll say Andre M if you can come forward I apologize if I pronounced your last name incorrectly [41:27] Andrea Mcke: mck m c ke name and address I moved into Whitebear Lake August of 2020 at that time my property Texas can you state your address for the record thank 257 Homewood place and I'm a little confused by all of this that you went through all your numbers my property taxes were 3600 my husband died 8 years ago so it's me I'm a senior in 2022 you increased them by 37.8% that amount was 4780 property taxes per year then you increased at [42:13] Andrea Mcke: 6.4% so last year I paid $5,100 and you're tell and what were you saying $825 a year are you are you serious I am complaining about your overzealous spending of my money I have gas electricity utilities property taxes insurances on homes cars there's inflation gas prices I mean you must have a home children that you have to spend money you're spending my money I have to budget so should you and what did you say about the $825 for property taxes that is so understated now I went to the Ramsey County forum also because this is getting out of touch I don't think I'm going to be living in White Bear Lake you are driving me out and I am a senior I think it's unfair I don't like people spending my money the way you are you you talk about uh other [43:50] Andrea Mcke: levies you know I have a budget that I have to live by you must also be held accountable and within a budget you can't just buy whatever this uh gigantic school levy referendum 326 million seriously we needed that I mean really 326 million who's paying for that me I'm paying for that I'm not happy I feel like you guys need to uh take some responsibility and think of the seniors the disabled thank you [44:33] Mayor Dan Danieki: thank you the next name on my list is Bev Bev F we'll say I'll leave it to you to pronounce it please just state your name correctly since I couldn't uh and your address for the record that would be great thank you [44:48] Beverly Farer: no worries my name is Beverly Farer I live at 3470 rolling View Court and I want to share that I appreciate and respect what the city of Whitebear Lake provides for my taxes I'm not here to complain about that I do appreciate it but I wanted to share a couple of numbers with you and explain my confusion that was largely resolved in the presentation but that results in me making a different comment so in the statement my taxable [45:24] Beverly Farer: market value goes up 4.5% not surprising overall all the different taxes that I'll be paying are going up 7.86% of that 7.86% directly involved in the city of White Bear Lake it's a 20% jump and that correlates greatly to what you were presenting before so I understand that I'm not different than most anybody else so I'm good with that I appreciate that that solves one question but I would share that I don't know that that's sustainable coming back next year if it's another 20% 3 four five years of that it taxes have doubled and folks will get riled up pretty quickly I did attend the Ramsey [46:10] Beverly Farer: County public hearing and folks were one word would be very upset another would be becoming irrational in how they were presenting things because they're so upset I don't want that in White Bear Lake ever so I would share that I appreciate what you do with the taxes that we pay the work is good primarily mostly I would say that I'm a little concerned that a couple of years ago our culde Act was Mill and overlay and it seemed to crack quite quickly from what the work that was done and then it was crack filled but the crack filling wasn't particularly impressive if you Google my name you will find that I have quite a bit of experience in that area and it's a little concerning to me [46:56] Beverly Farer: so I don't need a response I appreciate you'll look into it as you can but I I would just bring that forward as a concern if I noticed it and I know other people on my culdesac noticed it without my commentary it's probably a bigger thing that you're not hearing about so just sharing thank you for your work it's very appreciated [47:19] Mayor Dan Danieki: thank you I appreciate your comments and feedback those are the only two names that I have on my list but anyone else who would like to speak now is your opportunity please come forward state your name and address for the record and you shall be heard seeing none I will close the public hearing and bring it back to the [47:44] Mayor Dan Danieki: Council all right Council what what would we like to do with this [47:47] Council Member Dan Jones: council member Jones well there's a lot of things out there and I guess addressing miss mck's this I'm assuming miss mcke you were reading your Total Property Tax Bill of $5,100 total total that's all that's total oh I pay the toal yep of that about $918 was the cities of what we levied on your property and you say I'm a senior well part of what's being raised a huge cost and and that has been a large cost and this is what I've had to [48:32] Council Member Dan Jones: it's been difficult to explain these large increases that have happened are not fun for us they're not fun for staff but there has been a significant change in Health Care Ambulance costs when I first came on to the council we had about 2500 runs ambulance runs 16 years years ago with a paid on call meaning part-time volunteer staff that's not sustainable we don't have volunteer paramedics anymore they're not there this year we had over 5,000 runs most of our residents are like you [49:17] Council Member Dan Jones: like my mother who lives in the city are seniors are on fixed incomes and as city manager pointed out those ambulance runs we get reimbursed correct me someone if I'm wrong 20 to 35% of what it costs to send an ambulance for seniors so if I wanted to be a non-community person I should be saying you should be paying me I have been supporting senior health care for the last 28 years because I I if I get an ambulance I have to pay it and the city will get reimbursed for that cost every every senior and it's not your fault I'm not getting mad at you miss McGee those rates have not [50:03] Council Member Dan Jones: increased in 16 years so every if the if the ambulance costs $1,000 we only get back $300 to the city that cost has to go back to the rest of the taxpayers meaning me someone who is not of Social Security age that does not receive Medicare and we have a lot of seniors thank goodness in our community because it's seniors like you that make our community what it is I'm not just saying that so with that said it's it's a huge cost to this budget now moving away from that all of the costs of inflation that homeowners have gone through we go through it doesn't just jump over it just doesn't stop at what you're paying [50:49] Council Member Dan Jones: at the grocery store or we're paying for cement or services or people or health care for our employees or keeping up and this budget I I hope it's you know if I was here next year I would hope that it was and I know that that's all your hopes too we've discussed this that it's like this is the last big one but I I look around and where we're at at tax per capita per resident I look at that chart and I'm not picking on sh view but I'm I'm looking at sheview as one of our neighbors and one of our they don't have a downtown they do not have a police department and they do not have a fire department they do not have a license bureau that may or may not come out of this budget to be honest I can't remember right now it doesn't thank you city [51:34] Council Member Dan Jones: manager but I can tell you her part of her all the salary that goes in that license of Bureau affects the total cost of how our city runs and those I I don't know how sheview can even spend more money than we do and they do I'd like to ask them where where where why are you spending so much for the services that you get we have a lake we've added trails and these have been done at at what residents have requested and I I look at it and go I agree yeah this school I don't even want to address because that's that's not within our purview I will say on a sidebar we had a 80-year-old high school that felt like it was 160 and it was [52:21] Council Member Dan Jones: costing us residents not moving here that's a problem so when you are ready to sell I think you want someone to buy your home we need a good school district I would also ask how much money we have saved in the last 30 years we've had incredibly low taxes too much in my opinion too low for too long we missed the boat and we've had to play catchup in a lot of areas and hopefully this is the second year and I don't think it's going to be 20 20% next year I don't think it's going to be probably if I'm guessing it's going to be north of 10 for sure but we've got some things to do so I'm I'm comfortable with what's been proposed well no I'm [53:09] Council Member Dan Jones: uncomfortable with the number but it's something I have to pay these taxes every single one of us has to pay these charges but I I am I don't see how City staff can come up with a skinny budget with the services that we want and I would say okay it's easy to criticize I hope there's some understanding but I I would just say what don't you want and I look at this big budget increase along with public safety building 5% of that increase is loan with that it really comes down to this budget is about Public Safety it's not about what else are we doing it's too big of a chunk of our overall increase thank you Mr Mayor [53:56] Andrea Mcke: can I say something? [53:57] Mayor Dan Danieki: sure but if you'd like to please step up to the podium [54:06] Andrea Mcke: so you're telling me that $5,200 for property taxes last year is reasonable I didn't see that on your graphs or your amounts along with your 8 $812 was it there where are all the who is paying $5,200 a year and this is fair I think that maybe you should relook and maybe we have to do without some things I would like a really nice leather furniture in my living room okay and you do without you have a priority list of what you would like to do and what you can afford you don't put it on the backs of [54:52] Andrea Mcke: your seniors I'm not sure you understand that seniors have unlimited funds they are limited in their funds they're living on Social Security and now I don't have my notes with me but next 2024 I think it's 3.49 but it's never that it's always going to be more it's always a little more than that I think it's 6.7% I'm not sure uh what do you have to say about the 37.8% increase in 2022 now was that reasonable and what did you spend the money on that time and I'm talking to all of you I just I just wish you would budget prioritize and be held accountable instead of saying oh you think this is fair I don't think it's fair and I'm not the only person I think that you need to be held accountable yes the sa safety is a priority ambulances are a priority well I guess we have to do without something else that's how you have to work it instead of just increasing so NE you're almost doubling my property taxes in like four years do you realize that [56:19] Mayor Dan Danieki: I want to clarify something can Jason can you go to the slide that does the breakdown for what the net property taxes and and I I'm not [56:26] Mayor Dan Danieki: trying to get argument I want I really because this is a point of contention that that when I get calls I get emails there's an aha moment that residents go oh because that's how we defend what this budget is you hit the pyra it's the py graph that shows okay the sentence so let's use your example for a second hang on let's use your example for a second when when you are cessed at a rate of $5,100 what we're saying is we're getting 18 cents of those dollars we had zero say over what Ramsey County did that's not us that's the second biggest piece of the pie already talked to that we had zero say over the Independent School District that's not us that's the biggest piece of the pie so what what council member Jones is saying and how I [57:12] Mayor Dan Danieki: can sit here and defend this budget although there'll be some nuances is we are we are effectively the smallest entity in terms of how many dollars we're collecting of that 5100 and for that we are providing for very very expensive Services of which our costs are going up of which we are hammering staff left and right because we need to pay them working salary otherwise the firefighters the police officers and the paramedics are going to go elsewhere so while I can appreciate that these are big numbers and you've got a budget like everyone else does I'd rather I'd rather take the heat in a meeting like this than next year take the Heat and saying I call 911 and the firefighters don't show up the police don't show up the paramedics don't show up it took 20 minutes and someone went into cardiac arres and we didn't have these essential [57:58] Mayor Dan Danieki: services so I'm hearing everything you're saying and and I think it's fair and this is really helpful for us because it's what allows all of us to take things really really seriously when we look at a huge number like 20% because yeah it's a big number and we go through line by line and say what can we cut I said the same phrase last year I'll say it again if there were a marble fountain in this budget that we could cut we would cut it but the decisions we're making are should we not hire a firefighter well our chief is saying I need another firefighter in order to provide essential Services should we not buy an ambulance and when when we have the department saying we need an ambulance these are the decisions that we're making so again points are all well taken there is no real fluff there [58:43] Mayor Dan Danieki: may be a couple things that probably aren't fluff but you can pick at the edges that if you sit here long enough this council's probably going to debate as the night goes on but I think this it's really important for for you and for all the other residents to understand when you say $320 million for a project without get for the school district without even getting into the merits of whether or not that's a good idea just know that that wasn't us and those tax dollars that you're being assessed wasn't our decision and they're certainly not going to our bank accounts to to pay for firefighters or roads or sewers or any of that fair yes [59:28] Andrea Mcke: thank you [59:29] Lindsey Crawford: Miss go ahead M mck if you would like we can help look at your tax statement to help you further understand that if you'd like so [59:33] Andrea Mcke: okay [59:34] Council Member Dan Jones: Mr Mayor can I just one more Point since the pie CH is up sure so Mr edberg this number when we were early on in our days in the council was 16 cents if my memory was correct and so the use of our dollars of what we have to spend is part of the overall piece of the pie and that 18 cents really means 18% we were 16% in 208 maybe even less 16 16 cents we're now we're 18% and that's a 12% increase of your total tax homeowner tax budget I I would argue 12% divided by [1:00:19] Council Member Dan Jones: the last 16 years specifically the last five years is a a pretty good value for what our residents have paid and at the end of the day I would say you're not going to find a better value Miss mcke if you move to any other community with your three-bedroom two bath house on Homewood place you will pay more you will pay more [1:00:41] Council Member Edberg: council member edberg thank you Mr Mayor so to add two other they may not make anybody happy that's totally get I get it two other factors that haven't been mentioned yet for 10 years that [1:01:08] Council Member Edberg: from 2008 to 2018 this Council had Z increases in our Levy that's the way it was we held that for 10 years we held it too long and so since 2018 we've been playing ketchup but we can show you the actual dollars levied per year by the city of Whitebear lake so frugality is a is part and parcel of what's here but that only lasts so long there Comes A Time so for example the other item that hasn't been mentioned we are going to pay a whole bunch of money for interest and for expenses on building a new public safety building next door [1:01:55] Council Member Edberg: that is going it replaces the last facility that we had that was 60 years old could no longer accommodate the nature and size of the um firefighting equipment that we have the doors were too small um a whole variety of things Mr angram could give us a whole litany um the point is that there is nobody from the city that is sitting neither volunteer nor paid staff that's calling residents of the city would you please call 911 and ask for an ambulance at your house nonetheless those numbers keep going up and up and folks expect I think reasonably so that they will receive a response and trained qualified [1:02:42] Council Member Edberg: people at their doorstep in a reasonable period of time right now that's under 7 minutes so um those are the kinds of decisions that we wrestle with we had five Council meetings and work study sessions this uh this year going over all of those issues trying to find how do we reduce how do we can we postpone can we delay can we leverage in some way that creates some Synergy those conversations have been held in good faith by people who are asking many of the same kinds of questions and with the concerns that you have and this is what we can come up with so For Better or Worse your $5,000 bill we [1:03:28] Council Member Edberg: get $18 cents that's $900 which is you might have a home that's valued slightly higher than the median um 825 that uh the city manager talked about but that's your paying us 900 bucks for the entire scope of services that the City offers and that's we're doing the best we can and I'm sorry if that's not enough [1:03:52] Council Member Bill Walsh: any other thoughts or council member Walsh well Mr Mayor for purpose of discussion I think we should move the resolution I might have a couple of amendments and I got to have something to amend so we need to get it on the floor so I'll move the first resolution in the packet which is resolution adopting the 2024 budget and revising the 2023 budget do I have a second second I have [1:04:15] Mayor Dan Danieki: a second further discussion on this? [1:04:17] Council Member Bill Walsh: council member wall so just um I I I would well I'll just do one at a time um for let me say let me start by saying this um I appreciate the work of Staff because when we left this at the preliminary hearing in September the number was 22 point something so without without us doing anything at the dice here staff has worked hard to get it down to [1:04:53] Council Member Bill Walsh: 20.57% in front of us today is already down from where we were in September that's a victory that's that's an effort people should appreciate that I appreciate that as a councilman as a as a taxpayer um I'm going to I'm going to just do an amendment um doesn't affect the 2057 number because of the way it's funded but I'm not sold on the communications director position in this budget it's not paid for in the general fund but it is in I I believe it's covered in this in this in this um um resolution so I think it's appropriate place to make the amendment so my Amendment would be just just just to it's a no-o for me on the communications position in 2024 um I think that's the easiest way to demend it is simply say no on that position I have some ideas on what we can do I don't think we need to put [1:05:39] Council Member Bill Walsh: those in the amendment necessarily um staff's been making a case for this position it's a new position a Communications I would to call it communications director it's a communication specialist which I appreciate too in my when this started the discussion I had this as a communications director the the need is and the and the request is for a communication specialist which is the right level um I'm not sold and and I I think just especially this year on this position with the increase that we're facing um and I I just go through some reasons I mean this are we going to discuss or are we going to get a second oh I'm sorry thank you thank you that's I'd like to amend that yeah hopefully I have a second not the amendment still I think he was still giving it a little context you're right he's absolutely [1:06:24] Mayor Dan Danieki: right we we have a motion to amend I don't want to put words in your mouth the the motion is to strike the inclusion of the communication specialist from the budget is that a fair characterization do I have a second on that second I have a motion a second further discussion as to the amendment to strike the communication specialist continue [1:06:45] Council Member Bill Walsh: thank you so much because that that was that was out of order um um now I lost my train of thought but that's my fault uh you were on a yeah it's so it's a it's a here's the thing with the communications director position it's a it's a staff position that doesn't answer a 911 call that doesn't go out on a fire call that doesn't fix a street so it's getting us away from core services that we do as a city and and the the chart I like the [1:07:11] Council Member Bill Walsh: chart we've got it on the in the presentation about where we stand as a city and a per capita tax Capac tax I ask and we're low but this is how we join all the other cities so we're crossing a line with this job and I I want to just kind of wait as long as we can in wiper Lake to cross this line and we start adding positions that are not fighting fires responding to 911 or fixing streets um and and it's a line we can cross there was a letter to the editor in the in the white press a week or two ago it was from a vness Heights resident complaining about vness Heights but it kind of summed up kind where they gentleman was complaining or woman I can't remember who it was complaining about the budget and out of control and they're hiring a recreation Specialist or something for the parks and I thought ha see there it goes this this is where we're headed this is why vness Heights is higher in their taxes than we are [1:07:57] Council Member Bill Walsh: because they have these jobs that start growing like communication specialist and Recreation specialist and things like that so I'm just not ready to go there yet and I think we should we should take the time to we can spend the 2024 working on maybe a different funding source for the job and and we have this this um Comcast cable Grant and deal um that is worth looking into we've talked about it before other cities have gone this rout out where we have we can use that that Comcast franchise fee Grant to to handle Communications and we'd have to we'd have to make some huge changes it's not something you can do overnight it's something we can spend 2024 talking about if if the if this amendment passes um and do it that way or we could consider a different model I think if we're going to grow into something like [1:08:43] Council Member Bill Walsh: a communication specialist we could we could look at a contract for service to get it started we could contract with a PR firm to handle crisis Communications to handle to support the staff on a retainer basis could be a lot cheaper we do this in many other areas in the in the city budget there are lots of fees in here for consultants for this kind of thing uh that might be a better model uh to go and the last thing I'll say about it that the thing I don't like about this proposal is the way it's funded and and you say well it doesn't affect the the general fund it doesn't affect our Levy because it's it's going to be in this first six months it's going to be taken out of the water fund I think or sewer I can't both sewer and water and see we've done so much work you know getting the budget more transparent and I see a communication staff as as [1:09:28] Council Member Bill Walsh: a when or if we hire a communication staff that's a that's a main function upstairs near you the city in the city office serving everybody in the city paid for in the general fund transparent not I mean yes they're going to serve all these different places and you can you can say well we're going to get a little money there because they're going to handle crisis Communications for when a water main breaks and that's going to be a lot of their job so we're going to use their fund but but it just it's going the wrong direction on transparency if we're going to have somebody do this let's just pay for it and then yeah what they do is going to affect all parts of the city budget as as most of our salaries do so don't really love the way that it's funded uh the proposal for the first year then I if it's funded you know this year if my Amendment fails then when we're in this position next year a year from now we'll have to figure out a more permanent [1:10:14] Council Member Bill Walsh: solution to that funding it's I would argue then it being the general fund but now we're saying okay now we're growing our general fund now that Lev is going bigger with with these kind of positions that don't like I said answer a 911 call so that's my case that's my [1:10:28] Mayor Dan Danieki: Can I help you with the the last um part so Carrie help me correct me if I'm wrong the water sewer those funds would provide a transfer in to a general fund to help fund it that's it would be shown in the general fund but the other funds would make a transfer into the general fund to offset their portion of that employee so that's that's what we mean by it's paid for by water sewer Etc so I just want to clarify that yeah okay I understand that [1:11:01] Council Member Bill Walsh: yeah [1:11:02] Mayor Dan Danieki: Any further discussion as to the amendment to strike the communication specialist? [1:11:05] Council Member Edberg: council member edberg thank you Mr Mayor so Mr Walsh I'm I'm listening to your arguments I think you actually undercut your own argument you start by suggesting that it's not a core function but you ended by suggesting that it is a service that goes out to the entire community and fine we can we can debate fineries I actually am I share the sense that I'm not on board with filling that in the way that it is provided in the budget right now rather than remove it from the budget I would suggest we adopt the budget as [1:11:46] Council Member Edberg: presented but we remove the authority of the man city manager to fill that position until we've had more coun discussion on Alternatives such that if we get to the point where we find a different model we find consensus around a different approach the resources are there and if we can't it goes unspent and we uh have built in a portion of the of the uh of the year it's not a levy issue so it's not going to affect the levy can deal with it as a budget issue alone so I'm not satisfied that we have exactly the right model with exactly the right purposes I think it is there's a piece of that that is a legitimate public [1:12:32] Council Member Edberg: function I'm I'm not really concerned about the transparency issue but I do want to get the model right and I'm not sure that uh we have that at this point in time so um if you might be open to considering an alternative I would support that [1:12:49] Council Member Dan Jones: council member Jones I'm not in favor of the amendment I mean I think [1:13:08] Council Member Dan Jones: uh one of the most important things for me is that we have a staff that has sharpened their pencil and brought down a tough budget $200,000 We Trust our staff we believe our staff but not on this issue I want to know why you don't trust our staff and believe our staff on this issue and they're telling us we need this when we have our police chief we have our fire chief we have the department heads saying that we need this position and we're overdue on this position I mean just the the memorandum that that our city manager put out I I I mean I'd love to read it word for word [1:13:55] Council Member Dan Jones: actually I wouldn't post on Instagram um but to say yeah I mean it's Instagram it's the running joke it's much more than that anybody who's done that job knows of that any business I mean I question how many businesses that employ 120 full-time 20 part-time don't have a person that does this not to mention 25,000 residents that want to communicate better we've talked about communic beor we've talked about putting out more newsletters you know maybe possibly go to three we need it just keeps adding on people want to communicate differently people are demanding they're demanding they just don't want a newsletter they just don't want a website they just [1:14:42] Council Member Dan Jones: don't like I said before bill in our meeting my daughter owns a home she's a full-blown adult and has a Instagram account for her dog don't do but that's how they want to communicate folks this is the beginning we can't get behind we have our city staff saying don't get behind we're losing Effectiveness we're asking our top management the most expensive people on the payroll to do this part of their job when is it in their job description is it no I so it's like it's not even it's outside of their job duties per what her Memo said and to read the [1:15:31] Council Member Dan Jones: list of what would be impacted from Administration to Sports Center to finance license bureau Public Works engineering community development police fire okay that's every Department pretty much if we can make those departments for this cost I think it's actually a being more efficient being more effective with the folks that are managing our city managing your most of the people that live in Residence that's your biggest financial asset that you will ever buy and I think this will help keep that you're a good investment in that um [1:16:17] Council Member Dan Jones: looking at what the requirements are what the minimum qualifications are yeah this person will be very helpful in in doing what they do it's more than a website I mean just looking at our website today just I shouldn't say it but our website is not ADA Compliant it needs to be she doesn't want me to say that out loud but why isn't it why isn't our website ADA Compliant and it should be it's the law oh because we don't have the person to do it I want to know that and you know at the end of the day you're saying well this person isn't they're not making ambulance runs they're not putting out fires they're not building streets well [1:17:03] Council Member Dan Jones: neither do Parks neither do Trails neither do flowers in downtown or fancy lights or decorative stones in Highway 61 none of those things do that yet all of those things make it a better place to live and having a good communications director and and Bill I understand what you're saying it's like you're not ready there and I I would say listen discuss more the city manager you know how to how to fund it how to craft it commit to it you guys can do whatever you want and I get it and I get it's a tough year um I'd like to know how much time the city manager spent on communicating [1:17:50] Council Member Dan Jones: our vision on a video for this bu budget how much time did she spend on that how much time did she spend on her report which all buy it is part of her responsibility and what she should do but that that position could have said I'll gather this portion I'll gather this portion I'll go talk to Community Development I'll go talk to engineering I'll go talk to public works that's what I see this position being and I think that's what it says in the memo I think it's a really important position but I I can understand saying okay put it on I like what Mr edberg is proposing don't take it away craft it some more and again everybody you talk about other the [1:18:37] Council Member Dan Jones: growth I get that I I totally get that you're not wrong in that Mr Walsh as far as exponential growth but there's also exponential growth on what our residents want at one time in history we thought dirt roads will be just us great at one time in history we said the water from the ground is okay and then it wasn't and I think I'm I'm tired and Mr edberg brought it up brought it up earlier I'm tired of seeing our city always behind and I'm really tired of seeing our staff always paying that price first and this is the one time I think that we can affect make our staff's jobs more efficient I can we can make our [1:19:24] Council Member Dan Jones: staff better and we can deliver a service to What the residents want thank you Mr Mayor thank you [1:19:30] Mayor Dan Danieki: any other thoughts on this? [1:19:33] Council Member Heidi Hughes: council member use yeah I guess I just have a couple comments on that um I mean at one time in history we used to drive on dirt roads I mean the communicating is being done it's not like it isn't being done right now so it's it's really not a very good I don't think analogy um it just is being done by a whole bunch of people who want to do other things with their time and my biggest problem with it is having worked in organizations that had a commun person Communications person even a communications director um they still relied on my input for the portion of the newsletter that was in my purview they still relied on me doing my section [1:20:10] Council Member Heidi Hughes: of the job me I I wrote the Facebook update I wrote the email that was going to go out I wrote every single memo that this person was then going to redraft and make pretty in a um in a newsletter format so what we're basically so in some ways it's like we're we're employing a graphics designer and I don't you know it's a city it's a government it's not a business I'm not trying to sell anybody on what the city does so that they you know get upset and you know come back in here and say I wish this newsletter looked prettier um so that portion of it doesn't really float my boat in terms of what what we spend money on here and I guess you know I get that would come out of the water um and the sewer funds but in in my view you know taxpayer funds you know in some [1:20:58] Council Member Heidi Hughes: ways are fungible I recognize that water and sewer are paid for by a whole bunch of different groups of people not just from the city of white bear but you know all we're doing is spreading it around we're just taking it out of your pocket in this direction and out of the pocket in that direction and then meeting it somewhere in the middle when we do the transfer of funds so it's still taxpayer dollars regardless of how we actually get it here um I I don't want to undercut City staff you've asked for it and I get it um and I don't know what you do all day long and I don't want to I mean I do but I don't I don't want to do it um so I I respect that and I respect your comment on well you know they're asking for this all the people are asking for it and I guess my struggle is well we're asking for a lot of things and at some point we do have to say you know you can't we can't have all of it because then you [1:21:44] Council Member Heidi Hughes: end up with even larger increases and you know this isn't necessarily loow hanging fruit but is it one you can say maybe we just put it off for one more year maybe maybe we just put it off for one more year what happens if there's no communication specialist the ambulance still goes out the street still gets fixed um people still find out about the watermain break maybe it's 15 minutes later or half an hour later but I'm I'm not sure that um I'm not sure that rises to the level of having to fix it right now so I guess I'm a bit struggling um i'd be I think more inclined to support Mr Ed Burg's um method of uh giving the staff I guess just a little bit more time [1:22:31] Council Member Heidi Hughes: to make this um make their case I know you did a you did a beautiful job with the memo but my struggle still is just we're not a business we it it doesn't matter how pretty the newsletter is if somebody wants to read it they should read it even if it's in you know a bullet point font and if they're and if they're not going to read it how pretty do we have to make it in order to incentivize a taxpayer to read the document about what their taxes are paying for um so that's my struggle it's not that it isn't valuable it's just that is it valuable enough and and I don't I don't know [1:23:14] Mayor Dan Danieki: all right couple comments I have on this then you can go ahead you go first but so it seems there's two things there's one is there a need and then two do we have the appetite to pay for it in a a budget year that we're already at 20% plus increase I'm a lot more sold on there is some need I don't I'm not fully as far as council member Jones when when you say that people are demanding this some are right some might be looking for an update to a water main Brak on social media but from from my seat as representing the whole city I'm not getting calls or emails or complaints saying you're not communicating to me I didn't know that this was when the Vault cleanup was and I didn't know that there was a water m break and I didn't know that this was the non-emergency police number whatever it might be so is there a need yeah I I mean what I take the most serious is in Miss Crawford's memo [1:24:04] Mayor Dan Danieki: saying here are all the different department heads that support it and here is what they're doing uh extra above and beyond and how it's taking away from their core functions I take that very seriously because that means we can get a lot of bang for our buck and saying we're alleviating a lot of things from your plate so my my thought right now is I think we eventually do get there to some sort of communication special specialist I'm very intrigued about different ways to pay for it with shifting Sands with the cable commission and what that's going to look like um and and different ways of doing it so I mean I would be inclined to say I like council member edberg approach of let's not let's not just Nix it completely but let's put a pin in it and have some further discussion because I think I ultimately can be sold on massaging this [1:24:51] Mayor Dan Danieki: a little bit and how we pay for it and and getting a little further in terms of what it looks like but the short term of we're going to pay for it from water we're going to pay for it from sewer I don't it's I'm with council member Hughes it's still taxpayer dollars we're still growing government we're still adding a position that year over year over year we're going to have to pay for and that's fine if there's a need for the position um but I'm not quite there yet to say let's let's go for it so um I appreciate everyone's everyone's comments and I really do appreciate Miss Crawford's uh effort in putting together a very well-written memo that articulates what the need is and I trust that she sought the input of all the different department heads in the city um I think I think we'll ultimately get there maybe it happens tonight I don't know um but those are my those are my thoughts on [1:25:37] Mayor Dan Danieki: this [1:25:38] Council Member Bill Walsh: council member Walsh did you have some followup? [1:25:40] Council Member Bill Walsh: well thank you Mr Mayor well first I I I reject I reject the idea that I don't trust staff it's not a trust issue that's the wrong word our job is though is to question these things our job is to and we have questioned it extensively and I've on my own questioned it um we're not a rubber stamp okay we're not rubber stamps so trust staff sure but we're not going to rubber stamp everything they bring to us because that's what they want they don't run the city we run the city we're in charge we are the board we have to represent the taxpayers so we're not going to be rubber stamps on this I I didn't I didn't try to undercut my argument uh council member edberg I I what I meant to say was just the function the function is going to be of a communication specialist will be will be housed upstairs near all the other staff so this they're not going to be out at the water plant you know that's [1:26:24] Council Member Bill Walsh: my in my mind we we pay for it with water and sewer that's not really what they are they're not going to be hanging out at the water plant and we call them in for something they're going to be upstairs with the rest of the the key staff members I didn't I I didn't mean to speak to the need in that way just the the form and how they would work I don't I don't love your idea because it's it's it's it's very reminds me of the other position that we're funding this year that I don't think it was mentioned much we're adding a maintenance person and uh again staff brought that to us it's a need we don't have a maintenance person general maintenance person for all these buildings that we we own um it's kind of similar to that I and I was convinced on that one I think that's a that one was that that the case was made I'm I'm convinced we need that position filled that's a new position I brought up the [1:27:09] Council Member Bill Walsh: idea well we have all these we all these services in in each of the different budgets we have a line item for Building Maintenance and surely we could find some Savings in those build building maintenance line items um over the year because we're going to have a person doing this preventative maintenance so can't we just take the money out of there can't we well we could and we probably will have the money but we're going to leave it here we're going to take it from the taxpayers and leave it in the city budget until we really know and that's kind of what I feel like we're doing here well we'll leave it in the budget we'll leave here tonight with a Communications person's funded but we reserve the right to talk about it again so I'm not thrilled with it but uh it's a reasonable it's a reasonable idea it's a reasonable Amendment uh so I'd be I think I think and listening to my colleagues and the mayor foolish not to accept accept the [1:27:56] Council Member Bill Walsh: Overture uh as an amendment because honestly I I don't love it because the money is getting spent just like the maintenance new person is getting spent and no none of those maintenance Lems were lowered to help pay for it hopefully we'll have savings next year so the money is going to get spent I'm happy with the amendment idea from council member AG if the council would would go that direction that that allows us the chance to talk about it further and if we want to pull the trigger we pull the trigger the the mechanics of that I just don't well hang on just to clarify so one I don't think the money does get spent I think what what the nature of councilman bredberg suggestion would be is we're we're we're going to we're going to allow the possibility of spending that money subject to a future vote of us saying okay we're really going to spend the money so so I don't think it's a for conclusion to in terms [1:28:41] Mayor Dan Danieki: of how we do it I would I would prefer to have a straight up or down vote on what the the the motion to to to strike this and then if there's a second amendment that someone has that's a different suggestion I think that's the cleanest way to to approach that I'm seeing a a head nod from our City attorney in the affirmative so we'll go with that uh council member Edward [1:29:05] Council Member Edberg: thank you Mr Mayor so I was going to suggest that we do indeed hold that up and down if it passes that's a decision if it doesn't I will offer an alternative and we can decide whether that's an acceptable alternative as well the one thing that I want to pick at and it always comes up at at taxation hearings I'm going to this is going to sound obnoxious and I'm going to poke at you Mr Walsh we don't represent taxpayers we represent [1:29:27] Council Member Edberg: citizens our status to participate in our society is based on our citizenship not on the status of whether or not we pay taxes so just a a reminder that the people we care about are all the people who are citizens of our community that's enough I'm just going to take M mayor while I'm here and and I get where the Direction I love this by the way this is what should be happening excuse me but I still want it all just let you know but I'm not like Mr Walsh I'm not I'm kind of an idiot but this this this Communications person when I'm no longer here when's your last day right now this is [1:30:15] Council Member Dan Jones: it things and and I will put this maybe I am biased Mr Mayor of the position that I hold now that I am employed but I've also seen how many times the city interacts with not only one service organization but I look at what Main Street Chamber of Commerce and all the other servus organizations how they interact with the city of Whitebear Lake and that person would be that lead Point Market Fest I mean think think when we when you make your decision next year which is great think about that that's important not only to I mean even goes back to you know Economic Development agency who's at that table [1:31:02] Council Member Dan Jones: who do they want who it's not the same position but it's similar to do we want our city manager at that table using their time for that so that's I just don't want that aspect of that to be lost when you guys make your consideration next year thank you Mr May [1:31:21] Mayor Dan Danieki: Fair enough all right we have a motion a second before us to strike the communication specialist from the budget I will'll call for the vote now all those in favor of striking the communication specialist from the budget say I I I all those opposed no uh by a vote of three to2 the communication specialist position is Struck from the [1:31:48] Council Member Bill Walsh: budget uh Mr Mayor m oh go I have I have another amendment this one this is this is um just just this does what would affect the levy the the 20.57% and just looking at just I appreciate like I said earlier the the work staff did to get it down I just think it's it's still a very very large increase and in in this amendment I I well I'll just tell you what the amendment is I I think we should we could wait a year on the emerald ashb uh start um and the reason I I've offered this as Amendment it really is the only thing reasonably left um in the proposal and I I would defend the rest of the proposal um oh sorry I should amend that and maybe get a second before I go too [1:32:34] Council Member Bill Walsh: far as as I did earlier so my Amendment would be to to delay the emerald ashb I think it's $150,000 in the budget in 2024 for one year or actually just strike it because whether we do it next year is is a decision we make next year I guess but I'll second [1:33:02] Mayor Dan Danieki: I have a motion to second any further discussion on that council member Jones [1:33:07] Council Member Dan Jones: can I please with that budget say that again with that 150,000 what part of that is like prevent like there's trees dying right now that need to come down [1:33:14] Mayor Dan Danieki: all right so hang on maybe I misspoke why don't we do this since council member Walsh offered the amendment let's give him a chance to to articulate further why he's bringing that if you unless you are felt you a fair opportunity [1:33:23] Council Member Bill Walsh: but I was just getting started I mean go ahead if you don't mind Council Jones go ahead the only the I'm just going to say the reason I I think the I think the tax increase is too high uh we heard a little bit of people at tax truth and Taxation meeting um vo that I've heard it more this year than any other year been on the council about the size of this Levy and all the other economic pressures going on and all the other parts of that Levy the the school district piece the Ramsey County piece um affecting people so so when you look at this budget you say right what are we going to cut um I I do agree and I've said this before there's not a lot of fat in this budget there's not a lot of fluff there's not a lot of things you can point at and say that you know we could we could get we could do without the the big increases in this budget [1:34:06] Council Member Bill Walsh: we've talked about we've we are we are um getting our staff salaries in line we're on a we're on a multi-year journey to do that it's painful uh for taxpayers it's it's you know it's it's a two-part process where we're catching them up and giving them raises to to to kind of keep them caught up um that's a big part of this increase this year we are building a new building next door everybody can see that you can actually see it so you should understand that that's going to have a lot of debt service and it begins now that's a big part of this budget um we are adding firefighters two more this year there's a few more years of this uh left before we're done it's a decision we've collectively made kind of been made for us with the with with the fact that we kind of have to go fulltime [1:34:52] Council Member Bill Walsh: but we've made this decision to go down this path and it's I'm not going to move to strike one or two of the firefighters we got lucky last year maybe the year before paid for with federal arpa funds uh that just put off the pain until this year you seen that okay so the only thing left really to try to ease the pain on the on this this increase is the emerald ashbo money now um you know it's $150,000 in 2024 maybe I'm catching the body language from the down the other end of the Das that maybe cutting all of that is a mistake uh so maybe there's another number that that's more appropriate if we could make a budget impact um to lower the levy but not um cause emergencies um so I'm open to another number if there's a more reasonable number to propose uh but I [1:35:38] Council Member Bill Walsh: think we should make one more cut tonight um at this table to show an effort to the citizens that uh that we are trying to keep this low and and this and this honestly this this is um this is a delay somebody somebody can't you just put things off well we can and we've done that a lot and we so this is a delay it's not going to mean we're not going to do it eventually but but this year with this I don't believe we'll be back to 20% next year I believe we'll be more in line with other years um certainly hope that's the case and we'll work towards that but so uh let's delay this uh uh this tree issue for for one year that's that's the amendment I'm open to discussion on the amount if there's a better number um [1:36:23] Mayor Dan Danieki: Council M Jones if you have comments I'm inclined to say uh it might be helpful if we had City staff maybe help illustrate what it is we're doing here that'll help inform the council so Mr Copy if maybe if you could shed some light on just what this money is to be spent on and what it is is part of part of a broader kind of multi-year approach to tackling this issue [1:36:45] Paul Copy: mayor members of the council um I believe EAB started well the program generally started in 2018 with a tree inventory um showing that we have just over 2,000 uh trees within the public right away in our public uh active Park areas not including The Preserve type area so we have you know roughly 2,000 uh ash trees uh We've City staff over the uh last 5 years or so have uh used about 25 or so thousand per year to treat some of the specimen trees um at council's uh um direction to um try to see how long we can forgo this the big issue um the last two or so years we have seen a huge decline in in uh those trees um the trees that we've been treating have been more of the specimen trees um trying to again prolong or kind of delay this whole whole problem um now we are seeing a huge decline even in private property trees so each one of our residents are homeowners we're getting complaints from you know uh neighbors things like that you know my neighbor's tree is dying it's going to fall in my house those kind of things um [1:37:57] Paul Copy: and we are having um trouble keeping up with inspections um tagging um you know our ordinance say that um homeowner shall remove upon you know the death of that tree when we can't even keep track of our own um that being said uh we have also applied for some uh grant money um that we're still waiting a here on um some of that requires our own um contributions our in in kind match to do some of the things that the grants do not allow us to cover such as restoration um certain other things so and then kind of the longer term maintenance so that being said if we get this Grant and we don't have the money we can't fulfill the terms of that Grant [1:38:43] Paul Copy: as well so those are the big issues that Public Works are tree inspectors are seeing throughout the community um we took a pause um you know we had our uh Council Workshop earlier earlier this year to discuss this to look at over the winter um part of that tree um you know the Grant application is actually fulfilling you know what council directed staff as taking ownership and responsibility for those uh trees in our boulevards those properties that we own control um not a the split and kind of um inconsistencies that our own ordinance as so um that is part of the grant um language that we wrote um so that we if we are successful with this grant that is part of it is to take [1:39:29] Paul Copy: ownership and responsibility for those trees um and part of this money that was budgeted would be to help fulfill that um any uh uh responsibilities under the grant money so so [1:39:41] Mayor Dan Danieki: thank you that was helpful I just want to drill down even further this money that we're allocating in this budget we're going to be removed removing emerald ash trees that are infected with this or ones that aren't I want to know physically what what work is being done [1:39:55] Paul Copy: um great great question uh mayor members of the council uh as far as uh the proposal um for the city money U we would always Envision you know obviously that removal to get rid of that immediate Hazard the dead tree um but at the same time um these grants [1:40:16] Paul Copy: require that uh trees be also be replaced so it goes above them beyond that um the trees that we um not only take down we also replace so at the tuna of you know approximately $1,000 each to remove a tree um another $2 to $300 to replace a tree plus restoration which none of the grants cover uh we start getting up into that neighborhood of you know up to $1,500 per tree you know times 2,000 you know so we're looking at a big price tag over a short period of time time um the estimation of our city force or city parks department who are you know certified tree inspectors that are out there monitoring um the issue um you know Miss Crawford said you know seven eight years uh we're going to be at the tail end of that we're going to be taking a lot of dead trees down we're we're behind the eightball right now there's more than what we can keep up with um City staff tried to our parks and and public work staff tried to keep up uh we moving we could our own trees uh curon ordinance say certain Boulevard trees are split between the city and the homeowner so again a huge cost and and burden on on our on our residents in that respect so um yeah so ultimately it would be the removal uh removal of the stump replacement um you know reforestation of our boulevards uh restoration of the area that we take the tree out uh removal disposal of that uh [1:41:49] Paul Copy: wood um can't just be brought anywhere it's got to be disposable properly um chipped up um and you know not too further um um progress that infestation of EAB so covers the whole gamut [1:42:01] Mayor Dan Danieki: yeah so the end game in this infestation is all asht trees in the cities are in the city are eventually going to go and that's true of every city right so it's just a matter of when do we start which we haven't really we've just kind of treated and sort of picked at the edges so far this budget proposal is the first step forward in saying we're actually going to start on that multi-year process of correcting this issue at least with the the trees that the city of White Bear Lake is responsible for true statement? [1:42:31] Paul Copy: correct [1:42:37] Mayor Dan Danieki: okay so then for the council then it just becomes a question of when do we want to do that I think this is I would hope is likely ripe for maybe some State funding because this is a this is a big expensive issue and it weren't the city of wiper isn't unique to it and there's lots and lots of private property owners that that um are going to incur a large cost so my thought would be as much as I appreciate council member Walsh's effort to to curtail the budget maybe we don't spend the full full amount this year because um it is a high tax levy increase but um I think spending some money and beginning this process is probably important because the writing's on the wall the the infestation is here and eventually these trees got to go I'd rather I'd rather be proactive and I'll [1:43:22] Mayor Dan Danieki: defer to the city engineer and whether we're at that critical mass yet I don't want to see limbs falling on roads uh or trees falling down cuz that's just a whole another problem in and of itself so let's let's get them when we know that they're infested but structurally still intact enough that they're not a public safety issue so on that note can you Aline a little bit on as this INF infestation takes over on a tree I assume at some point it does become a public safety issue in terms of the the level of degradation of the tree is that correct [1:43:53] Paul Copy: uh mayor members of the council that is correct um so one thing to note is with ash trees is they tend to one especially with the EAB dive extremely quickly um the uh the emerald ash b as you might be aware um eat the you know kind of the inner layers of the tree um and really I hate to say overnight but very quickly uh kill that tree and ash trees are very susceptible to limbs um becoming very brittle and falling in a uh very short period of time unlike maybe an oak or Maple where you know even in my own yard I have you know some dead oak trees and it's been 10 years and I haven't lost a branch um uh ases tend to get brittle very quickly and within a several years um you know branches start falling and those are the complaints that we get from you know adjacent Property Owners uh um you know again our ordinances are are somewhat am ambiguous and hard to understand for residents that they are so we get a lot of calls from residents about Boulevard trees and it's tough to say well we're going to leave the boulevard tree for now but you have to take the Dead Ash tree in your yard because ordinance says you have to take your as down upon notification so some of those kind of things that we're staff has been difficult uh communicating to to Residents um and then um just the uh yeah the fact that we are actually kind of um behind the eightball on this one we are probably a couple years behind the where we really should have started you know kind of mass taking trees down uh we really tried to keep up at you know as directed by Council and and trying to be a little bit conservative to keep up with the staff that we have and um you know treating and things like that I think we're at a point now where you know we're probably a couple two three years into you know kind of mass die off [1:46:11] Mayor Dan Danieki: it's helpful all right [1:46:12] Council Member Edberg: council member edberg thank you Mr Copy how many uh so of the proposed budget um Levy portion how many of those dollars would be necessary would we have to come up with if we zeroed this out and then subsequently got the grant State Grant what's what's the match component of the 150 and what portion of the um funding is necessary for the renewed two-year treatment um because we've been treating uh some trees the specimen trees for to protect them that seems to be an effective measure at least I'm still hearing that that's effective but it has to be renewed every two years what's our what portion of the uh um Levy about it uh would be required to maintain L levels of vaccination if you will [1:47:04] Paul Copy: uh mayor mayor members of the council so uh to date over the last about five years we've been spending between 25 and $30,000 to treat the trees that price obviously keeps going up so we started you know probably closer to 20 when we first started 5 years ago we're up to about $30,000 to treat those um trees um and I forgive me I don't have the exact number but it's about 600 total trees if I recall correctly so about 300 every other year um that we've been treating um so uh again like you said it's an alternating cycle so every other year we keep treating roughly 300 trees um so of that said if we continue treating just to kind of help prolong um the uh um kind of that process um the additional um money that we put towards it uh was to help uh if we get this grant money um so the two grants that we applied for were $500,000 each um we heard one for sure that we are not getting um we're still waiting to here on the second Grant um so again it's roughly $500,000 um of the kind of total estimated we're looking at about a $3 million removal and replacement program um that being said um roughly about 2 million of it is the removal cost and roughly uh 1 million would be kind of the replacement restoration uh that component um until we get actual bids um those are our best guest working with local Tre contractors uh um landscapers uh stump grinders people like that to get cost as close as we could to submit for these grants um what else can I tell you um what's the match amount on 500,000 um so of the match there's there's not technically a match but there are components that of that program that are not covered so um the the things that staff knows is not covered is the the restoration so once we go in we grind that stump the hauling away of the of the material the um the restoration the soing the seating of people's yards is not covered um likewise uh in talking with contractors the most efficient way to do this is uh to come in and do you know a mass you know block by block so that's the most cost effective shut a street down cut all the ases down haul them away and move them up so that's the most cost effective there's going to be some uh based on the grants where we have to replace one for one there are areas in town that we have that we know uh in in some of the uh you recall the water Gremlin tree planting program the free trees that we got there's a lot of areas that we go in and we cannot replace so those would be ineligible for um the grant money so we might come into a neighborhood or whatnot we say well let's skip that street because we know we have a sewer m or a water M under that Boulevard we can't plant trees um they'd be over the utilities they'd be you know under overhead power lines things like that they might have started that way years ago but uh we would not in today's uh you know U best judgment put them back in those areas so uh removal of those trees might not be covered so it's cover those gaps where we know that we can't get uh um we can't count that specific removal for funding and then likewise the uh all the restoration of those areas that we would do the actual removals [1:50:54] Council Member Edberg: last thing i' just not is that I have received a number of uh unsolicited comments from from citizens the storm this past summer affected not just Elms excuse me oh U ashes but uh drive up 61 and uh by Goose Lake and take a look at the dead Willows and all of the other that are part of the experience entering our city um our neighborhoods this is a big deal and it's not yeah we can monetize it um there was a time 1961 when we were a tree City USA or whatever that's worth it's like trees are important they're not taxpayers though I'm not sure they're citizens either [1:51:41] Council Member Dan Jones: council member Jones so my biggest concern is I don't think 150 is enough because I think we'll spend that taking down the ones that are already dead as I walk my block and a half to Sunrise and do the loop around to Birch and come back on my mcnight I count 15 dead trees half of which were not dead last year they weren't dead and they're on the boulevard they're in city right away what are we going to do about those they're dead and 50 Grand isn't going to touch that cuz I can't believe my neighborhood's any different than anywhere else where they planted Emerald [1:51:56] Council Member Dan Jones: Ash boore so I I think it's going to be emergency fund usage because I this is Cedar Avenue this is mcnight these are roads that are traveled and at least two or three including the one in my front yard if if it falls the right direction it's falling on my house and I'm not being dramatic it's the these are 60-year-old they're big Ash ash trees and and that's not the only one so that that's my big concern is what is the city doing about these trees that are dead there are no they're dead what are we doing about them they're on the boulevard do something about it fix it that's what I'm being told and it's like well we got to have money thank you Mr mayor [1:53:14] Council Member Bill Walsh: council member Walsh uh well thank you Mr Mayor I I um after listening to Mr Copy uh discussed the Grant I don't want to screw up the Grant I think that'd be foolish uh if we have we're in store for $500,000 Grant and we need some money to uh keep up with that you know in terms of the restoration and the planting on the side um I think I think the taking the whole 150,000 is not necessary not prudent um so if if I don't know the procedure if I can just change my Amendment amend my Amendment change the number to 75 instead of 150 that leaves half of the money in there by the way no one's arguing that that [1:53:31] Council Member Bill Walsh: it's not a good idea this is not this is not an argument on the merits of the proposal it's just on the the timing and the balancing for for this year's uh tax hit so there's no there's no I agree with all of the need um so I don't know if the seconder needs to agree but uh but I'd go from 15 50 to 75,000 uh this year and then we'll just kick into it as we go [1:53:57] Mayor Dan Danieki: what the fer City attorney on how how best to handle this if you can just withdraw your Amendment and bring another one what would you suggest? [1:54:05] City Attorney: yeah as long as the council is okay with understanding it's 75 uh not 150 procedurally it's better to have a a separate amendment to amend the number but um it's council's choice and how formal you want to be [1:54:17] Mayor Dan Danieki: I like formality so um so there should be a motion to amend then the amendment? yes okay so a motion to amend the amendment uh [1:54:26] Council Member Bill Walsh: move my I'll move to amend my amendment to to 75,000 instead of the whole 150,000 [1:54:33] Mayor Dan Danieki: do have a second? second any further discussion on that? [1:54:38] Council Member Bill Walsh: council member Jones can I please with that budget say that again with that 150,000 what part of that is like prevent like there's trees dying right now that need to come down [1:54:47] Mayor Dan Danieki: all right so hang on maybe I misspoke why don't we do this since council member Walsh offered the amendment let's give him a chance to to articulate further why he's bringing that if you unless you are felt you a fair opportunity [1:54:58] Council Member Bill Walsh: but I was just getting started I mean go ahead if you don't mind Council Jones go ahead the only the I'm just going to say the reason I I think the I think the tax increase is too high uh we heard a little bit of people at tax truth and Taxation meeting um vo that I've heard it more this year than any other year been on the council about the size of this Levy and all the other economic pressures going on and all the other parts of that Levy the the school district piece the Ramsey County piece um affecting people so so when you look at this budget you say right what are we going to cut um I I do agree and I've said this before there's not a lot of fat in this budget there's not a lot of fluff there's not a lot of things you can point at and say that you know we could we could get we could do without the the big increases in this budget [1:55:30] Council Member Bill Walsh: we've talked about we've we are we are um getting our staff salaries in line we're on a we're on a multi-year journey to do that it's painful uh for taxpayers it's it's you know it's it's a two-part process where we're catching them up and giving them raises to to to kind of keep them caught up um that's a big part of this increase this year we are building a new building next door everybody can see that you can actually see it so you should understand that that's going to have a lot of debt service and it begins now that's a big part of this budget um we are adding firefighters two more this year there's a few more years of this uh left before we're done it's a decision we've collectively made kind of been made for us with the with with the fact that we kind of have to go fulltime [1:56:10] Council Member Bill Walsh: but we've made this decision to go down this path and it's I'm not going to move to strike one or two of the firefighters we got lucky last year maybe the year before paid for with federal arpa funds uh that just put off the pain until this year you seen that okay so the only thing left really to try to ease the pain on the on this this increase is the emerald ashbo money now um you know it's $150,000 in 2024 maybe I'm catching the body language from the down the other end of the Das that maybe cutting all of that is a mistake uh so maybe there's another number that that's more appropriate if we could make a budget impact um to lower the levy but not um cause emergencies um so I'm open to another number if there's a more reasonable number to propose uh but I think we should make one more cut tonight um at this table to show an effort to the citizens that uh that we are trying to keep this low and and this and this honestly this this is um this is a delay somebody somebody can't you just put things off well we can and we've done that a lot and we so this is a delay it's not going to mean we're not going to do it eventually but but this year with this I don't believe we'll be back to 20% next year I believe we'll be more in line with other years um certainly hope that's the case and we'll work towards that but so uh let's delay this uh uh this tree issue for for one year that's that's the amendment I'm open to discussion on the amount if there's a better number um [1:57:30] Mayor Dan Danieki: Council M Jones if you have comments I'm inclined to say uh it might be helpful if we had City staff maybe help illustrate what it is we're doing here that'll help inform the council so Mr Copy if maybe if you could shed some light on just what this money is to be spent on and what it is is part of part of a broader kind of multi-year approach to tackling this issue [1:57:45] Paul Copy: mayor members of the council um I believe EAB started well the program generally started in 2018 with a tree inventory um showing that we have just over 2,000 uh trees within the public right away in our public uh active Park areas not including The Preserve type area so we have you know roughly 2,000 uh ash trees uh We've City staff over the uh last 5 years or so have uh used about 25 or so thousand per year to treat some of the specimen trees um at council's uh um direction to um try to see how long we can forgo this the big issue um the last two or so years we have seen a huge decline in in uh those trees um the trees that we've been treating have been more of the specimen trees um trying to again prolong or kind of delay this whole whole problem um now we are seeing a huge decline even in private property trees so each one of our residents are homeowners we're getting complaints from you know uh neighbors things like that you know my neighbor's tree is dying it's going to fall in my house those kind of things um [1:58:15] Paul Copy: and we are having um trouble keeping up with inspections um tagging um you know our ordinance say that um homeowner shall remove upon you know the death of that tree when we can't even keep track of our own um that being said uh we have also applied for some uh grant money um that we're still waiting a here on um some of that requires our own um contributions our in in kind match to do some of the things that the grants do not allow us to cover such as restoration um certain other things so and then kind of the longer term maintenance so that being said if we get this Grant and we don't have the money we can't fulfill the terms of that Grant [1:58:43] Paul Copy: as well so those are the big issues that Public Works are tree inspectors are seeing throughout the community um we took a pause um you know we had our uh Council Workshop earlier earlier this year to discuss this to look at over the winter um part of that tree um you know the Grant application is actually fulfilling you know what council directed staff as taking ownership and responsibility for those uh trees in our boulevards those properties that we own control um not a the split and kind of um inconsistencies that our own ordinance as so um that is part of the grant um language that we wrote um so that we if we are successful with this grant that is part of it is to take [1:59:15] Paul Copy: ownership and responsibility for those trees um and part of this money that was budgeted would be to help fulfill that um any uh uh responsibilities under the grant money so so [1:59:25] Mayor Dan Danieki: thank you that was helpful I just want to drill down even further this money that we're allocating in this budget we're going to be removed removing emerald ash trees that are infected with this or ones that aren't I want to know physically what what work is being done [1:59:35] Paul Copy: um great great question uh mayor members of the council uh as far as uh the proposal um for the city money U we would always Envision you know obviously that removal to get rid of that immediate Hazard the dead tree um but at the same time um these grants [1:59:45] Paul Copy: require that uh trees be also be replaced so it goes above them beyond that um the trees that we um not only take down we also replace so at the tuna of you know approximately $1,000 each to remove a tree um another $2 to $300 to replace a tree plus restoration which none of the grants cover uh we start getting up into that neighborhood of you know up to $1,500 per tree you know times 2,000 you know so we're looking at a big price tag over a short period of time time um the estimation of our city force or city parks department who are you know certified tree inspectors that are out there monitoring um the issue um you know Miss Crawford said you know seven eight years uh we're going to be at the tail end of that we're going to be taking a lot of dead trees down we're we're behind the eightball right now there's more than what we can keep up with um City staff tried to our parks and and public work staff tried to keep up uh we moving we could our own trees uh curon ordinance say certain Boulevard trees are split between the city and the homeowner so again a huge cost and and burden on on our on our residents in that respect so um yeah so ultimately it would be the removal uh removal of the stump replacement um you know reforestation of our boulevards uh restoration of the area that we take the tree out uh removal disposal of that uh [2:00:15] Paul Copy: wood um can't just be brought anywhere it's got to be disposable properly um chipped up um and you know not too further um um progress that infestation of EAB so covers the whole gamut [2:00:25] Mayor Dan Danieki: yeah so the end game in this infestation is all asht trees in the cities are in the city are eventually going to go and that's true of every city right so it's just a matter of when do we start which we haven't really we've just kind of treated and sort of picked at the edges so far this budget proposal is the first step forward in saying we're actually going to start on that multi-year process of correcting this issue at least with the the trees that the city of White Bear Lake is responsible for true statement? [2:00:45] Paul Copy: correct [2:00:50] Mayor Dan Danieki: okay so then for the council then it just becomes a question of when do we want to do that I think this is I would hope is likely ripe for maybe some State funding because this is a this is a big expensive issue and it weren't the city of wiper isn't unique to it and there's lots and lots of private property owners that that um are going to incur a large cost so my thought would be as much as I appreciate council member Walsh's effort to to curtail the budget maybe we don't spend the full full amount this year because um it is a high tax levy increase but um I think spending some money and beginning this process is probably important because the writing's on the wall the the infestation is here and eventually these trees got to go I'd rather I'd rather be proactive and I'll [2:01:25] Mayor Dan Danieki: defer to the city engineer and whether we're at that critical mass yet I don't want to see limbs falling on roads uh or trees falling down cuz that's just a whole another problem in and of itself so let's let's get them when we know that they're infested but structurally still intact enough that they're not a public safety issue so on that note can you Aline a little bit on as this INF infestation takes over on a tree I assume at some point it does become a public safety issue in terms of the the level of degradation of the tree is that correct [2:01:53] Paul Copy: uh mayor members of the council that is correct um so one thing to note is with ash trees is they tend to one especially with the EAB dive extremely quickly um the uh the emerald ash b as you might be aware um eat the you know kind of the inner layers of the tree um and really I hate to say overnight but very quickly uh kill that tree and ash trees are very susceptible to limbs um becoming very brittle and falling in a uh very short period of time unlike maybe an oak or Maple where you know even in my own yard I have you know some dead oak trees and it's been 10 years and I haven't lost a branch um uh ases tend to get brittle very quickly and within a several years um you know branches start falling and those are the complaints that we get from you know adjacent Property Owners uh um you know again our ordinances are are somewhat am ambiguous and hard to understand for residents that they are so we get a lot of calls from residents about Boulevard trees and it's tough to say well we're going to leave the boulevard tree for now but you have to take the Dead Ash tree in your yard because ordinance says you have to take your as down upon notification so some of those kind of things that we're staff has been difficult uh communicating to to Residents um and then um just the uh yeah the fact that we are actually kind of um behind the eightball on this one we are probably a couple years behind the where we really should have started you know kind of mass taking trees down uh we really tried to keep up at you know as directed by Council and and trying to be a little bit conservative to keep up with the staff that we have and um you know treating and things like that I think we're at a point now where you know we're probably a couple two three years into you know kind of mass die off [2:02:15] Mayor Dan Danieki: it's helpful all right [2:02:20] Council Member Edberg: council member edberg thank you Mr Copy how many uh so of the proposed budget um Levy portion how many of those dollars would be necessary would we have to come up with if we zeroed this out and then subsequently got the grant State Grant what's what's the match component of the 150 and what portion of the um funding is necessary for the renewed two-year treatment um because we've been treating uh some trees the specimen trees for to protect them that seems to be an effective measure at least I'm still hearing that that's effective but it has to be renewed every two years what's our what portion of the uh um Levy about it uh would be required to maintain L levels of vaccination if you will [2:02:35] Paul Copy: uh mayor mayor members of the council so uh to date over the last about five years we've been spending between 25 and $30,000 to treat the trees that price obviously keeps going up so we started you know probably closer to 20 when we first started 5 years ago we're up to about $30,000 to treat those um trees um and I forgive me I don't have the exact number but it's about 600 total trees if I recall correctly so about 300 every other year um that we've been treating um so uh again like you said it's an alternating cycle so every other year we keep treating roughly 300 trees um so of that said if we continue treating just to kind of help prolong um the uh um kind of that process um the additional um money that we put towards it uh was to help uh if we get this grant money um so the two grants that we applied for were $500,000 each um we heard one for sure that we are not getting um we're still waiting to here on the second Grant um so again it's roughly $500,000 um of the kind of total estimated we're looking at about a $3 million removal and replacement program um that being said um roughly about 2 million of it is the removal cost and roughly uh 1 million would be kind of the replacement restoration uh that component um until we get actual bids um those are our best guest working with local Tre contractors uh um landscapers uh stump grinders people like that to get cost as close as we could to submit for these grants um what else can I tell you um what's the match amount on 500,000 um so of the match there's there's not technically a match but there are components that of that program that are not covered so um the the things that staff knows is not covered is the the restoration so once we go in we grind that stump the hauling away of the of the material the um the restoration the soing the seating of people's yards is not covered um likewise uh in talking with contractors the most efficient way to do this is uh to come in and do you know a mass you know block by block so that's the most cost effective shut a street down cut all the ases down haul them away and move them up so that's the most cost effective there's going to be some uh based on the grants where we have to replace one for one there are areas in town that we have that we know uh in in some of the uh you recall the water Gremlin tree planting program the free trees that we got there's a lot of areas that we go in and we cannot replace so those would be ineligible for um the grant money so we might come into a neighborhood or whatnot we say well let's skip that street because we know we have a sewer m or a water M under that Boulevard we can't plant trees um they'd be over the utilities they'd be you know under overhead power lines things like that they might have started that way years ago but uh we would not in today's uh you know U best judgment put them back in those areas so uh removal of those trees might not be covered so it's cover those gaps where we know that we can't get uh um we can't count that specific removal for funding and then likewise the uh all the restoration of those areas that we would do the actual removals [2:02:48] Lindsey Crawford: last thing i' just not is that I have received a number of uh unsolicited comments from from citizens the storm this past summer affected not just Elms excuse me oh U ashes but uh drive up 61 and uh by Goose Lake and take a look at the dead Willows and all of the other that are part of the experience entering our city um our neighborhoods this is a big deal and it's not yeah we can monetize it um there was a time 1961 when we were a tree City USA or whatever that's worth it's like trees are important they're not taxpayers though I'm not sure they're citizens either [2:03:00] Council Member Dan Jones: council member Jones so my biggest concern is I don't think 150 is enough because I think we'll spend that taking down the ones that are already dead as I walk my block and a half to Sunrise and do the loop around to Birch and come back on my mcnight I count 15 dead trees half of which were not dead last year they weren't dead and they're on the boulevard they're in city right away what are we going to do about those they're dead and 50 Grand isn't going to touch that cuz I can't believe my neighborhood's any different than anywhere else where they planted Emerald Ash boore so I I think it's going to be emergency fund usage because I this is Cedar Avenue this is mcnight these are roads that are traveled and at least two or three including the one in my front yard if if it falls the right direction it's falling on my house and I'm not being dramatic it's the these are 60-year-old they're big Ash ash trees and and that's not the only one so that that's my big concern is what is the city doing about these trees that are dead there are no they're dead what are we doing about them they're on the boulevard do something about it fix it that's what I'm being told and it's like well we got to have money thank you Mr mayor [2:03:15] Council Member Bill Walsh: council member Walsh uh well thank you Mr Mayor I I um after listening to Mr Copy uh discussed the Grant I don't want to screw up the Grant I think that'd be foolish uh if we have we're in store for $500,000 Grant and we need some money to uh keep up with that you know in terms of the restoration and the planting on the side um I think I think the taking the whole 150,000 is not necessary not prudent um so if if I don't know the procedure if I can just change my Amendment amend my Amendment change the number to 75 instead of 150 that leaves half of the money in there by the way no one's arguing that that it's not a good idea this is not this is not an argument on the merits of the proposal it's just on the the timing and the balancing for for this year's uh tax hit so there's no there's no I agree with all of the need um so I don't know if the seconder needs to agree but uh but I'd go from 15 50 to 75,000 uh this year and then we'll just kick into it as we go [2:03:30] Mayor Dan Danieki: what the fer City attorney on how how best to handle this if you can just withdraw your Amendment and bring another one what would you suggest? [2:03:35] City Attorney: yeah as long as the council is okay with understanding it's 75 uh not 150 procedurally it's better to have a a separate amendment to amend the number but um it's council's choice and how formal you want to be [2:03:40] Mayor Dan Danieki: I like formality so um so there should be a motion to amend then the amendment? yes okay so a motion to amend the amendment uh move my I'll move to amend my amendment to to 75,000 instead of the whole 150,000 do have a second? second any further discussion on that? [2:03:45] Council Member Heidi Hughes: council member Jones can I please with that budget say that again with that 150,000 what part of that is like prevent like there's trees dying right now that need to come down [2:03:50] Mayor Dan Danieki: all right so hang on maybe I misspoke why don't we do this since council member Walsh offered the amendment let's give him a chance to to articulate further why he's bringing that if you unless you are felt you a fair opportunity but I was just getting started I mean go ahead if you don't mind Council Jones go ahead the only the I'm just going to say the reason I I think the I think the tax increase is too high uh we heard a little bit of people at tax truth and Taxation meeting um vo that I've heard it more this year than any other year been on the council about the size of this Levy and all the other economic pressures going on and all the other parts of that Levy the the school district piece the Ramsey County piece um affecting people so so when you look at this budget you say right what are we going to cut um I I do agree and I've said this before there's not a lot of fat in this budget there's not a lot of fluff there's not a lot of things you can point at and say that you know we could we could get we could do without the the big increases in this budget [2:04:10] Council Member Bill Walsh: we've talked about we've we are we are um getting our staff salaries in line we're on a we're on a multi-year journey to do that it's painful uh for taxpayers it's it's you know it's it's a two-part process where we're catching them up and giving them raises to to to kind of keep them caught up um that's a big part of this increase this year we are building a new building next door everybody can see that you can actually see it so you should understand that that's going to have a lot of debt service and it begins now that's a big part of this budget um we are adding firefighters two more this year there's a few more years of this uh left before we're done it's a decision we've collectively made kind of been made for us with the with with the fact that we kind of have to go fulltime but we've made this decision to go down this path and it's I'm not going to move to strike one or two of the firefighters we got lucky last year maybe the year before paid for with federal arpa funds uh that just put off the pain until this year you seen that okay so the only thing left really to try to ease the pain on the on this this increase is the emerald ashbo money now um you know it's $150,000 in 2024 maybe I'm catching the body language from the down the other end of the Das that maybe cutting all of that is a mistake uh so maybe there's another number that that's more appropriate if we could make a budget impact um to lower the levy but not um cause emergencies um so I'm open to another number if there's a more reasonable number to propose uh but I think we should make one more cut tonight um at this table to show an effort to the citizens that uh that we are trying to keep this low and and this and this honestly this this is um this is a delay somebody somebody can't you just put things off well we can and we've done that a lot and we so this is a delay it's not going to mean we'not going to do it eventually but but this year with this I don't believe we'll be back to 20% next year I believe we'll be more in line with other years um certainly hope that's the case and we'll work towards that but so uh let's delay this uh uh this tree issue for for one year that's that's the amendment I'm open to discussion on the amount if there's a better number um Council M Jones if you have comments I'm inclined to say uh it might be helpful if we had City staff maybe help illustrate what it is we're doing here that'll help inform the council so Mr Copy if maybe if you could shed some light on just what this money is to be spent on and what it is is part of part of a broader kind of multi-year approach to tackling this issue [2:04:30] Paul Copy: mayor members of the council um I believe EAB started well the program generally started in 2018 with a tree inventory um showing that we have just over 2,000 uh trees within the public right away in our public uh active Park areas not including The Preserve type area so we have you know roughly 2,000 uh ash trees uh We've City staff over the uh last 5 years or so have uh used about 25 or so thousand per year to treat some of the specimen trees um at council's uh um direction to um try to see how long we can forgo this the big issue um the last two or so years we have seen a huge decline in in uh those trees um the trees that we've been treating have been more of the specimen trees um trying to again prolong or kind of delay this whole whole problem um now we are seeing a huge decline even in private property trees so each one of our residents are homeowners we're getting complaints from you know uh neighbors things like that you know my neighbor's tree is dying it's going to fall in my house those kind of things um [2:04:45] Paul Copy: and we are having um trouble keeping up with inspections um tagging um you know our ordinance say that um homeowner shall remove upon you know the death of that tree when we can't even keep track of our own um that being said uh we have also applied for some uh grant money um that we're still waiting a here on um some of that requires our own um contributions our in in kind match to do some of the things that the grants do not allow us to cover such as restoration um certain other things so and then kind of the longer term maintenance so that being said if we get this Grant and we don't have the money we can't fulfill the terms of that Grant as well so those are the big issues that Public Works are tree inspectors are seeing throughout the community um we took a pause um you know we had our uh Council Workshop earlier earlier this year to discuss this to look at over the winter um part of that tree um you know the Grant application is actually fulfilling you know what council directed staff as taking ownership and responsibility for those uh trees in our boulevards those properties that we own control um not a the split and kind of um inconsistencies that our own ordinance as so um that is part of the grant um language that we wrote um so that we if we are successful with this grant that is part of it is to take ownership and responsibility for those trees um and part of this money that was budgeted would be to help fulfill that um any uh uh responsibilities under the grant money so so [2:04:55] Mayor Dan Danieki: thank you that was helpful I just want to drill down even further this money that we're allocating in this budget we're going to be removed removing emerald ash trees that are infected with this or ones that aren't I want to know physically what what work is being done [2:05:00] Paul Copy: um great great question uh mayor members of the council uh as far as uh the proposal um for the city money U we would always Envision you know obviously that removal to get rid of that immediate Hazard the dead tree um but at the same time um these grants require that uh trees be also be replaced so it goes above them beyond that um the trees that we um not only take down we also replace so at the tuna of you know approximately $1,000 each to remove a tree um another $2 to $300 to replace a tree plus restoration which none of the grants cover uh we start getting up into that neighborhood of you know up to $1,500 per tree you know times 2,000 you know so we're looking at a big price tag over a short period of time time um the estimation of our city force or city parks department who are you know certified tree inspectors that are out there monitoring um the issue um you know Miss Crawford said you know seven eight years uh we're going to be at the tail end of that we're going to be taking a lot of dead trees down we're we're behind the eightball right now there's more than what we can keep up with um City staff tried to our parks and and public work staff tried to keep up uh we moving we could our own trees uh curon ordinance say certain Boulevard trees are split between the city and the homeowner so again a huge cost and and burden on on our on our residents in that respect so um yeah so ultimately it would be the removal uh removal of the stump replacement um you know reforestation of our boulevards uh restoration of the area that we take the tree out uh removal disposal of that uh wood um can't just be brought anywhere it's got to be disposable properly um chipped up um and you know not too further um um progress that infestation of EAB so covers the whole gamut [2:05:05] Mayor Dan Danieki: yeah so the end game in this infestation is all asht trees in the cities are in the city are eventually going to go and that's true of every city right so it's just a matter of when do we start which we haven't really we've just kind of treated and sort of picked at the edges so far this budget proposal is the first step forward in saying we're actually going to start on that multi-year process of correcting this issue at least with the the trees that the city of White Bear Lake is responsible for true statement? correct okay so then for the council then it just becomes a question of when do we want to do that I think this is I would hope is likely ripe for maybe some State funding because this is a this is a big expensive issue and it weren't the city of wiper isn't unique to it and there's lots and lots of private property owners that that um are going to incur a large cost so my thought would be as much as I appreciate council member Walsh's effort to to curtail the budget maybe we don't spend the full full amount this year because um it is a high tax levy increase but um I think spending some money and beginning this process is probably important because the writing's on the wall the the infestation is here and eventually these trees got to go I'd rather I'd rather be proactive and I'll defer to the city engineer and whether we're at that critical mass yet I don't want to see limbs falling on roads uh or trees falling down cuz that's just a whole another problem in and of itself so let's let's get them when we know that they're infested but structurally still intact enough that they're not a public safety issue so on that note can you Aline a little bit on as this INF infestation takes over on a tree I assume at some point it does become a public safety issue in terms of the the level of degradation of the tree is that correct [2:05:10] Paul Copy: uh mayor members of the council that is correct um so one thing to note is with ash trees is they tend to one especially with the EAB dive extremely quickly um the uh the emerald ash b as you might be aware um eat the you know kind of the inner layers of the tree um and really I hate to say overnight but very quickly uh kill that tree and ash trees are very susceptible to limbs um becoming very brittle and falling in a uh very short period of time unlike maybe an oak or Maple where you know even in my own yard I have you know some dead oak trees and it's been 10 years and I haven't lost a branch um uh ases tend to get brittle very quickly and within a several years um you know branches start falling and those are the complaints that we get from you know adjacent Property Owners uh um you know again our ordinances are are somewhat am ambiguous and hard to understand for residents that they are so we get a lot of calls from residents about Boulevard trees and it's tough to say well we're going to leave the boulevard tree for now but you have to take the Dead Ash tree in your yard because ordinance says you have to take your as down upon notification so some of those kind of things that we're staff has been difficult uh communicating to to Residents um and then um just the uh yeah the fact that we are actually kind of um behind the eightball on this one we are probably a couple years behind the where we really should have started you know kind of mass taking trees down uh we really tried to keep up at you know as directed by Council and and trying to be a little bit conservative to keep up with the staff that we have and um you know treating and things like that I think we're at a point now where you know we're probably a couple two three years into you know kind of mass die off [2:05:15] Mayor Dan Danieki: it's helpful all right council member edberg thank you Mr Copy how many uh so of the proposed budget um Levy portion how many of those dollars would be necessary would we have to come up with if we zeroed this out and then subsequently got the grant State Grant what's what's the match component of the 150 and what portion of the um funding is necessary for the renewed two-year treatment um because we've been treating uh some trees the specimen trees for to protect them that seems to be an effective measure at least I'm still hearing that that's effective but it has to be renewed every two years what's our what portion of the uh um Levy about it uh would be required to maintain L levels of vaccination if you will [2:05:20] Paul Copy: uh mayor mayor members of the council so uh to date over the last about five years we've been spending between 25 and $30,000 to treat the trees that price obviously keeps going up so we started you know probably closer to 20 when we first started 5 years ago we're up to about $30,000 to treat those um trees um and I forgive me I don't have the exact number but it's about 600 total trees if I recall correctly so about 300 every other year um that we've been treating um so uh again like you said it's an alternating cycle so every other year we keep treating roughly 300 trees um so of that said if we continue treating just to kind of help prolong um the uh um kind of that process um the additional um money that we put towards it uh was to help uh if we get this grant money um so the two grants that we applied for were $500,000 each um we heard one for sure that we are not getting um we're still waiting to here on the second Grant um so again it's roughly $500,000 um of the kind of total estimated we'looking at about a $3 million removal and replacement program um that being said um roughly about 2 million of it is the removal cost and roughly uh 1 million would be kind of the replacement restoration uh that component um until we get actual bids um those are our best guest working with local Tre contractors uh um landscapers uh stump grinders people like that to get cost as close as we could to submit for these grants um what else can I tell you um what's the match amount on 500,000 um so of the match there's there's not technically a match but there are components that of that program that are not covered so um the the things that staff knows is not covered is the the restoration so once we go in we grind that stump the hauling away of the of the material the um the restoration the soing the seating of people's yards is not covered um likewise uh in talking with contractors the most efficient way to do this is uh to come in and do you know a mass you know block by block so that's the most cost effective shut a street down cut all the ases down haul them away and move them up so that's the most cost effective there's going to be some uh based on the grants where we have to replace one for one there are areas in town that we have that we know uh in in some of the uh you recall the water Gremlin tree planting program the free trees that we got there's a lot of areas that we go in and we cannot replace so those would be ineligible for um the grant money so we might come into a neighborhood or whatnot we say well let's skip that street because we know we have a sewer m or a water M under that Boulevard we can't plant trees um they'd be over the utilities they'd be you know under overhead power lines things like that they might have started that way years ago but uh we would not in today's uh you know U best judgment put them back in those areas so uh removal of those trees might not be covered so it's cover those gaps where we know that we can't get uh um we can't count that specific removal for funding and then likewise the uh all the restoration of those areas that we would do the actual removals last thing i' just not is that I have received a number of uh unsolicited comments from from citizens the storm this past summer affected not just Elms excuse me oh U ashes but uh drive up 61 and uh by Goose Lake and take a look at the dead Willows and all of the other that are part of the experience entering our city um our neighborhoods this is a big deal and it's not yeah we can monetize it um there was a time 1961 when we were a tree City USA or whatever that's worth it's like trees are important they'not taxpayers though I'm not sure they're citizens either council member Jones so my biggest concern is I don't think 150 is enough because I think we'll spend that taking down the ones that are already dead as I walk my block and a half to Sunrise and do the loop around to Birch and come back on my mcnight I count 15 dead trees half of which were not dead last year they weren't dead and they're on the boulevard they're in city right away what are we going to do about those they're dead and 50 Grand isn't going to touch that cuz I can't believe my neighborhood's any different than anywhere else where they planted Emerald Ash boore so I I think it's going to be emergency fund usage because I this is Cedar Avenue this is mcnight these are roads that are traveled and at least two or three including the one in my front yard if if it falls the right direction it's falling on my house and I'm not being dramatic it's the these are 60-year-old they're big Ash ash trees and and that's not the only one so that that's my big concern is what is the city doing about these trees that are dead there are no they're dead what are we doing about them they're on the boulevard do something about it fix it that's what I'm being told and it's like well we got to have money thank you Mr mayor council member Walsh uh well thank you Mr Mayor I I um after listening to Mr Copy uh discussed the Grant I don't want to screw up the Grant I think that'd be foolish uh if we have we're in store for $500,000 Grant and we need some money to uh keep up with that you know in terms of the restoration and the planting on the side um I think I think the taking the whole 150,000 is not necessary not prudent um so if if I don't know the procedure if I can just change my Amendment amend my Amendment change the number to 75 instead of 150 that leaves half of the money in there by the way no one's arguing that that it's not a good idea this is not this is not an argument on the merits of the proposal it's just on the the timing and the balancing for for this year's uh tax hit so there's no there's no I agree with all of the need um so I don't know if the seconder needs to agree but uh but I'd go from 15 50 to 75,000 uh this year and then we'll just kick into it as we go what the fer City attorney on how how best to handle this if you can just withdraw your Amendment and bring another one what would you suggest? yeah as long as the council is okay with understanding it's 75 uh not 150 procedurally it's better to have a a separate amendment to amend the number but um it's council's choice and how formal you want to be I like formality so um so there should be a motion to amend then the amendment? yes okay so a motion to amend the amendment uh move my I'll move to amend my amendment to to 75,000 instead of the whole 150,000 do have a second? second any further discussion on that? council member Jones can I please with that budget say that again with that 150,000 what part of that is like prevent like there's trees dying right now that need to come down all right so hang on maybe I misspoke why don't we do this since council member Walsh offered the amendment let's give him a chance to to articulate further why he's bringing that if you unless you are felt you a fair opportunity but I was just getting started I mean go ahead if you don't mind Council Jones go ahead the only the I'm just going to say the reason I I think the I think the tax increase is too high uh we heard a little bit of people at tax truth and Taxation meeting um vo that I've heard it more this year than any other year been on the council about the size of this Levy and all the other economic pressures going on and all the other parts of that Levy the the school district piece the Ramsey County piece um affecting people so so when you look at this budget you say right what are we going to cut um I I do agree and I've said this before there's not a lot of fat in this budget there's not a lot of fluff there's not a lot of things you can point at and say that you know we could we could get we could do without the the big increases in this budget [2:05:30] Paul Copy: we've talked about we've we are we are um getting our staff salaries in line we're on a we're on a multi-year journey to do that it's painful uh for taxpayers it's it's you know it's it's a two-part process where we're catching them up and giving them raises to to to kind of keep them caught up um that's a big part of this increase this year we are building a new building next door everybody can see that you can actually see it so you should understand that that's going to have a lot of debt service and it begins now that's a big part of this budget um we are adding firefighters two more this year there's a few more years of this uh left before we're done it's a decision we've collectively made kind of been made for us with the with with the fact that we kind of have to go fulltime but we've made this decision to go down this path and it's I'm not going to move to strike one or two of the firefighters we got lucky last year maybe the year before paid for with federal arpa funds uh that just put off the pain until this year you seen that okay so the only thing left really to try to ease the pain on the on this this increase is the emerald ashbo money now um you know it's $150,000 in 2024 maybe I'm catching the body language from the down the other end of the Das that maybe cutting all of that is a mistake uh so maybe there's another number that that's more appropriate if we could make a budget impact um to lower the levy but not um cause emergencies um so I'm open to another number if there's a more reasonable number to propose uh but I think we should make one more cut tonight um at this table to show an effort to the citizens that uh that we are trying to keep this low and and this and this honestly this this is um this is a delay somebody somebody can't you just put things off well we can and we've done that a lot and we so this is a delay it's not going to mean we'not going to do it eventually but but this year with this I don't believe we'll be back to 20% next year I believe we'll be more in line with other years um certainly hope that's the case and we'll work towards that but so uh let's delay this uh uh this tree issue for for one year that's that's the amendment I'm open to discussion on the amount if there's a better number um Council M Jones if you have comments I'm inclined to say uh it might be helpful if we had City staff maybe help illustrate what it is we're doing here that'll help inform the council so Mr Copy if maybe if you could shed some light on just what this money is to be spent on and what it is is part of part of a broader kind of multi-year approach to tackling this issue mayor members of the council um I believe EAB started well the program generally started in 2018 with a tree inventory um showing that we have just over 2,000 uh trees within the public right away in our public uh active Park areas not including The Preserve type area so we have you know roughly 2,000 uh ash trees uh We've City staff over the uh last 5 years or so have uh used about 25 or so thousand per year to treat some of the specimen trees um at council's uh um direction to um try to see how long we can forgo this the big issue um the last two or so years we have seen a huge decline in in uh those trees um the trees that we've been treating have been more of the specimen trees um trying to again prolong or kind of delay this whole whole problem um now we are seeing a huge decline even in private property trees so each one of our residents are homeowners we're getting complaints from you know uh neighbors things like that you know my neighbor's tree is dying it's going to fall in my house those kind of things um and we are having um trouble keeping up with inspections um tagging um you know our ordinance say that um homeowner shall remove upon you know the death of that tree when we can't even keep track of our own um that being said uh we have also applied for some uh grant money um that we're still waiting a here on um some of that requires our own um contributions our in in kind match to do some of the things that the grants do not allow us to cover such as restoration um certain other things so and then kind of the longer term maintenance so that being said if we get this Grant and we don't have the money we can't fulfill the terms of that Grant as well so those are the big issues that Public Works are tree inspectors are seeing throughout the community um we took a pause um you know we had our uh Council Workshop earlier earlier this year to discuss this to look at over the winter um part of that tree um you know the Grant application is actually fulfilling you know what council directed staff as taking ownership and responsibility for those uh trees in our boulevards those properties that we own control um not a the split and kind of um inconsistencies that our own ordinance as so um that is part of the grant um language that we wrote um so that we if we are successful with this grant that is part of it is to take ownership and responsibility for those trees um and part of this money that was budgeted would be to help fulfill that um any uh uh responsibilities under the grant money so so thank you that was helpful I just want to drill down even further this money that we're allocating in this budget we're going to be removed removing emerald ash trees that are infected with this or ones that aren't I want to know physically what what work is being done um great great question uh mayor members of the council uh as far as uh the proposal um for the city money U we would always Envision you know obviously that removal to get rid of that immediate Hazard the dead tree um but at the same time um these grants require that uh trees be also be replaced so it goes above them beyond that um the trees that we um not only take down we also replace so at the tuna of you know approximately $1,000 each to remove a tree um another $2 to $300 to replace a tree plus restoration which none of the grants cover uh we start getting up into that neighborhood of you know up to $1,500 per tree you know times 2,000 you know so we're looking at a big price tag over a short period of time time um the estimation of our city force or city parks department who are you know certified tree inspectors that are out there monitoring um the issue um you know Miss Crawford said you know seven eight years uh we're going to be at the tail end of that we're going to be taking a lot of dead trees down we're we're behind the eightball right now there's more than what we can keep up with um City staff tried to our parks and and public work staff tried to keep up uh we moving we could our own trees uh curon ordinance say certain Boulevard trees are split between the city and the homeowner so again a huge cost and and burden on on our on our residents in that respect so um yeah so ultimately it would be the removal uh removal of the stump replacement um you know reforestation of our boulevards uh restoration of the area that we take the tree out uh removal disposal of that uh wood um can't just be brought anywhere it's got to be disposable properly um chipped up um and you know not too further um um progress that infestation of EAB so covers the whole gamut yeah so the end game in this infestation is all asht trees in the cities are in the city are eventually going to go and that's true of every city right so it's just a matter of when do we start which we haven't really we've just kind of treated and sort of picked at the edges so far this budget proposal is the first step forward in saying we're actually going to start on that multi-year process of correcting this issue at least with the the trees that the city of White Bear Lake is responsible for true statement? correct okay so then for the council then it just becomes a question of when do we want to do that I think this is I would hope is likely ripe for maybe some State funding because this is a this is a big expensive issue and it weren the city of wiper isn't unique to it and there's lots and lots of private property owners that that um are going to incur a large cost so my thought would be as much as I appreciate council member Walsh's effort to to curtail the budget maybe we don't spend the full full amount this year because um it is a high tax levy increase but um I think spending some money and beginning this process is probably important because the writing's on the wall the the infestation is here and eventually these trees got to go I'd rather I'd rather be proactive and I'll defer to the city engineer and whether we're at that critical mass yet I don't want to see limbs falling on roads uh or trees falling down cuz that's just a whole another problem in and of itself so let's let's get them when we know that they're infested but structurally still intact enough that they're not a public safety issue so on that note can you Aline a little bit on as this INF infestation takes over on a tree I assume at some point it does become a public safety issue in terms of the the level of degradation of the tree is that correct uh mayor members of the council that is correct um so one thing to note is with ash trees is they tend to one especially with the EAB dive extremely quickly um the uh the emerald ash b as you might be aware um eat the you know kind of the inner layers of the tree um and really I hate to say overnight but very quickly uh kill that tree and ash trees are very susceptible to limbs um becoming very brittle and falling in a uh very short period of time unlike maybe an oak or Maple where you know even in my own yard I have you know some dead oak trees and it's been 10 years and I haven't lost a branch um uh ases tend to get brittle very quickly and within a several years um you know branches start falling and those are the complaints that we get from you know adjacent Property Owners uh um you know again our ordinances are are somewhat am ambiguous and hard to understand for residents that they are so we get a lot of calls from residents about Boulevard trees and it's tough to say well we're going to leave the boulevard tree for now but you have to take the Dead Ash tree in your yard because ordinance says you have to take your as down upon notification so some of those kind of things that we're staff has been difficult uh communicating to to Residents um and then um just the uh yeah the fact that we are actually kind of um behind the eightball on this one we are probably a couple years behind the where we really should have started you know kind of mass taking trees down uh we really tried to keep up at you know as directed by Council and and trying to be a little bit conservative to keep up with the staff that we have and um you know treating and things like that I think we're at a point now where you know we're probably a couple two three years into you know kind of mass die off it's helpful all right council member edberg thank you Mr Copy how many uh so of the proposed budget um Levy portion how many of those dollars would be necessary would we have to come up with if we zeroed this out and then subsequently got the grant State Grant what's what's the match component of the 150 and what portion of the um funding is necessary for the renewed two-year treatment um because we've been treating uh some trees the specimen trees for to protect them that seems to be an effective measure at least I'm still hearing that that's effective but it has to be renewed every two years what's our what portion of the uh um Levy about it uh would be required to maintain L levels of vaccination if you will uh mayor mayor members of the council so uh to date over the last about five years we've been spending between 25 and $30,000 to treat the trees that price obviously keeps going up so we started you know probably closer to 20 when we first started 5 years ago we're up to about $30,000 to treat those um trees um and I forgive me I don't have the exact number but it's about 600 total trees if I recall correctly so about 300 every other year um that we've been treating um so uh again like you said it's an alternating cycle so every other year we keep treating roughly 300 trees um so of that said if we continue treating just to kind of help prolong um the uh um kind of that process um the additional um money that we put towards it uh was to help uh if we get this grant money um so the two grants that we applied for were $500,000 each um we heard one for sure that we are not getting um we're still waiting to here on the second Grant um so again it's roughly $500,000 um of the kind of total estimated we'looking at about a $3 million removal and replacement program um that being said um roughly about 2 million of it is the removal cost and roughly uh 1 million would be kind of the replacement restoration uh that component um until we get actual bids um those are our best guest working with local Tre contractors uh um landscapers uh stump grinders people like that to get cost as close as we could to submit for these grants um what else can I tell you um what's the match amount on 500,000 um so of the match there's there's not technically a match but there are components that of that program that are not covered so um the the things that staff knows is not covered is the the restoration so once we go in we grind that stump the hauling away of the of the material the um the restoration the soing the seating of people's yards is not covered um likewise uh in talking with contractors the most efficient way to do this is uh to come in and do you know a mass you know block by block so that's the most cost effective shut a street down cut all the ases down haul them away and move them up so that's the most cost effective there's going to be some uh based on the grants where we have to replace one for one there are areas in town that we have that we know uh in in some of the uh you recall the water Gremlin tree planting program the free trees that we got there's a lot of areas that we go in and we cannot replace so those would be ineligible for um the grant money so we might come into a neighborhood or whatnot we say well let's skip that street because we know we have a sewer m or a water M under that Boulevard we can't plant trees um they'd be over the utilities they'd be you know under overhead power lines things like that they might have started that way years ago but uh we would not in today's uh you know U best judgment put them back in those areas so uh removal of those trees might not be covered so it's cover those gaps where we know that we can't get uh um we can't count that specific removal for funding and then likewise the uh all the restoration of those areas that we would do the actual removals last thing i' just not is that I have received a number of uh unsolicited comments from from citizens the storm this past summer affected not just Elms excuse me oh U ashes but uh drive up 61 and uh by Goose Lake and take a look at the dead Willows and all of the other that are part of the experience entering our city um our neighborhoods this is a big deal and it's not yeah we can monetize it um there was a time 1961 when we were a tree City USA or whatever that's worth it's like trees are important they'not taxpayers though I'm not sure they're citizens either council member Jones so my biggest concern is I don't think 150 is enough because I think we'll spend that taking down the ones that are already dead as I walk my block and a half to Sunrise and do the loop around to Birch and come back on my mcnight I count 15 dead trees half of which were not dead last year they weren't dead and they're on the boulevard they're in city right away what are we going to do about those they're dead and 50 Grand isn't going to touch that cuz I can't believe my neighborhood's any different than anywhere else where they planted Emerald Ash boore so I I think it's going to be emergency fund usage because I this is Cedar Avenue this is mcnight these are roads that are traveled and at least two or three including the one in my front yard if if it falls the right direction it's falling on my house and I'm not being dramatic it's the these are 60-year-old they're big Ash ash trees and and that's not the only one so that that's my big concern is what is the city doing about these trees that are dead there are no they're dead what are we doing about them they're on the boulevard do something about it fix it that's what I'm being told and it's like well we got to have money thank you Mr mayor council member Walsh uh well thank you Mr Mayor I I um after listening to Mr Copy uh discussed the Grant I don't want to screw up the Grant I think that'd be foolish uh if we have we're in store for $500,000 Grant and we need some money to uh keep up with that you know in terms of the restoration and the planting on the side um I think I think the taking the whole 150,000 is not necessary not prudent um so if if I don't know the procedure if I can just change my Amendment amend my Amendment change the number to 75 instead of 150 that leaves half of the money in there by the way no one's arguing that that it's not a good idea this is not this is not an argument on the merits of the proposal it's just on the the timing and the balancing for for this year's uh tax hit so there's no there's no I agree with all of the need um so I don't know if the seconder needs to agree but uh but I'd go from 15 50 to 75,000 uh this year and then we'll just kick into it as we go what the fer City attorney on how how best to handle this if you can just withdraw your Amendment and bring another one what would you suggest? yeah as long as the council is okay with understanding it's 75 uh not 150 procedurally it's better to have a a separate amendment to amend the number but um it's council's choice and how formal you want to be I like formality so um so there should be a motion to amend then the amendment? yes okay so a motion to amend the amendment uh move my I'll move to amend my amendment to to 75,000 instead of the whole 150,000 do have a second? second any further discussion on that? council member Jones can I please with that budget say that again with that 150,000 what part of that is like prevent like there's trees dying right now that need to come down all right so hang on maybe I misspoke why don't we do this since council member Walsh offered the amendment let's give him a chance to to articulate further why he's bringing that if you unless you are felt you a fair opportunity but I was just getting started I mean go ahead if you don't mind Council Jones go ahead the only the I'm just going to say the reason I I think the I think the tax increase is too high uh we heard a little bit of people at tax truth and Taxation meeting um vo that I've heard it more this year than any other year been on the council about the size of this Levy and all the other economic pressures going on and all the other parts of that Levy the the school district piece the Ramsey County piece um affecting people so so when you look at this budget you say right what are we going to cut um I I do agree and I've said this before there's not a lot of fat in this budget there's not a lot of fluff there's not a lot of things you can point at and say that you know we could we could get we could do without the the big increases in this budget we've talked about we've we are we are um getting our staff salaries in line we're on a we're on a multi-year journey to do that it's painful uh for taxpayers it's it's you know it's it's a two-part process where we're catching them up and giving them raises to to to kind of keep them caught up um that's a big part of this increase this year we are building a new building next door everybody can see that you can actually see it so you should understand that that's going to have a lot of debt service and it begins now that's a big part of this budget um we are adding firefighters two more this year there's a few more years of this uh left before we're done it's a decision we've collectively made kind of been made for us with the with with the fact that we kind of have to go fulltime but we've made this decision to go down this path and it's I'm not going to move to strike one or two of the firefighters we got lucky last year maybe the year before paid for with federal arpa funds uh that just put off the pain until this year you seen that okay so the only thing left really to try to ease the pain on the on this this increase is the emerald ashbo money now um you know it's $150,000 in 2024 maybe I'm catching the body language from the down the other end of the Das that maybe cutting all of that is a mistake uh so maybe there's another number that that's more appropriate if we could make a budget impact um to lower the levy but not um cause emergencies um so I'm open to another number if there's a more reasonable number to propose uh but I think we should make one more cut tonight um at this table to show an effort to the citizens that uh that we are trying to keep this low and and this and this honestly this this is um this is a delay somebody somebody can't you just put things off well we can and we've done that a lot and we so this is a delay it's not going to mean we'not going to do it eventually but but this year with this I don't believe we'll be back to 20% next year I believe we'll be more in line with other years um certainly hope that's the case and we'll work towards that but so uh let's delay this uh uh this tree issue for for one year that's that's the amendment I'm open to discussion on the amount if there's a better number um Council M Jones if you have comments I'm inclined to say uh it might be helpful if we had City staff maybe help illustrate what it is we're doing here that'll help inform the council so Mr Copy if maybe if you could shed some light on just what this money is to be spent on and what it is is part of part of a broader kind of multi-year approach to tackling this issue mayor members of the council um I believe EAB started well the program generally started in 2018 with a tree inventory um showing that we have just over 2,000 uh trees within the public right away in our public uh active Park areas not including The Preserve type area so we have you know roughly 2,000 uh ash trees uh We've City staff over the uh last 5 years or so have uh used about 25 or so thousand per year to treat some of the specimen trees um at council's uh um direction to um try to see how long we can forgo this the big issue um the last two or so years we have seen a huge decline in in uh those trees um the trees that we've been treating have been more of the specimen trees um trying to again prolong or kind of delay this whole whole problem um now we are seeing a huge decline even in private property trees so each one of our residents are homeowners we're getting complaints from you know uh neighbors things like that you know my neighbor's tree is dying it's going to fall in my house those kind of things um and we are having um trouble keeping up with inspections um tagging um you know our ordinance say that um homeowner shall remove upon you know the death of that tree when we can't even keep track of our own um that being said uh we have also applied for some uh grant money um that we're still waiting a here on um some of that requires our own um contributions our in in kind match to do some of the things that the grants do not allow us to cover such as restoration um certain other things so and then kind of the longer term maintenance so that being said if we get this Grant and we don't have the money we can't fulfill the terms of that Grant as well so those are the big issues that Public Works are tree inspectors are seeing throughout the community um we took a pause um you know we had our uh Council Workshop earlier earlier this year to discuss this to look at over the winter um part of that tree um you know the Grant application is actually fulfilling you know what council directed staff as taking ownership and responsibility for those uh trees in our boulevards those properties that we own control um not a the split and kind of um inconsistencies that our own ordinance as so um that is part of the grant um language that we wrote um so that we if we are successful with this grant that is part of it is to take ownership and responsibility for those trees um and part of this money that was budgeted would be to help fulfill that um any uh uh responsibilities under the grant money so so thank you that was helpful I just want to drill down even further this money that we're allocating in this budget we're going to be removed removing emerald ash trees that are infected with this or ones that aren't I want to know physically what what work is being done um great great question uh mayor members of the council uh as far as uh the proposal um for the city money U we would always Envision you know obviously that removal to get rid of that immediate Hazard the dead tree um but at the same time um these grants require that uh trees be also be replaced so it goes above them beyond that um the trees that we um not only take down we also replace so at the tuna of you know approximately $1,000 each to remove a tree um another $2 to $300 to replace a tree plus restoration which none of the grants cover uh we start getting up into that neighborhood of you know up to $1,500 per tree you know times 2,000 you know so we're looking at a big price tag over a short period of time time um the estimation of our city force or city parks department who are you know certified tree inspectors that are out there monitoring um the issue um you know Miss Crawford said you know seven eight years uh we're going to be at the tail end of that we're going to be taking a lot of dead trees down we're we're behind the eightball right now there's more than what we can keep up with um City staff tried to our parks and and public work staff tried to keep up uh we moving we could our own trees uh curon ordinance say certain Boulevard trees are split between the city and the homeowner so again a huge cost and and burden on on our on our residents in that respect so um yeah so ultimately it would be the removal uh removal of the stump replacement um you know reforestation of our boulevards uh restoration of the area that we take the tree out uh removal disposal of that uh wood um can't just be brought anywhere it's got to be disposable properly um chipped up um and you know not too further um um progress that infestation of EAB so covers the whole gamut yeah so the end game in this infestation is all asht trees in the cities are in the city are eventually going to go and that's true of every city right so it's just a matter of when do we start which we haven't really we've just kind of treated and sort of picked at the edges so far this budget proposal is the first step forward in saying we're actually going to start on that multi-year process of correcting this issue at least with the the trees that the city of White Bear Lake is responsible for true statement? correct okay so then for the council then it just becomes a question of when do we want to do that I think this is I would hope is likely ripe for maybe some State funding because this is a this is a big expensive issue and it weren the city of wiper isn't unique to it and there's lots and lots of private property owners that that um are going to incur a large cost so my thought would be as much as I appreciate council member Walsh's effort to to curtail the budget maybe we don't spend the full full amount this year because um it is a high tax levy increase but um I think spending some money and beginning this process is probably important because the writing's on the wall the the infestation is here and eventually these trees got to go I'd rather I'd rather be proactive and I'll defer to the city engineer and whether we're at that critical mass yet I don't want to see limbs falling on roads uh or trees falling down cuz that's just a whole another problem in and of itself so let's let's get them when we know that they're infested but structurally still intact enough that they're not a public safety issue so on that note can you Aline a little bit on as this INF infestation takes over on a tree I assume at some point it does become a public safety issue in terms of the the level of degradation of the tree is that correct uh mayor members of the council that is correct um so one thing to note is with ash trees is they tend to one especially with the EAB dive extremely quickly um the uh the emerald ash b as you might be aware um eat the you know kind of the inner layers of the tree um and really I hate to say overnight but very quickly uh kill that tree and ash trees are very susceptible to limbs um becoming very brittle and falling in a uh very short period of time unlike maybe an oak or Maple where you know even in my own yard I have you know some dead oak trees and it's been 10 years and I haven't lost a branch um uh ases tend to get brittle very quickly and within a several years um you know branches start falling and those are the complaints that we get from you know adjacent Property Owners uh um you know again our ordinances are are somewhat am ambiguous and hard to understand for residents that they are so we get a lot of calls from residents about Boulevard trees and it's tough to say well we're going to leave the boulevard tree for now but you have to take the Dead Ash tree in your yard because ordinance says you have to take your as down upon notification so some of those kind of things that we're staff has been difficult uh communicating to to Residents um and then um just the uh yeah the fact that we are actually kind of um behind the eightball on this one we are probably a couple years behind the where we really should have started you know kind of mass taking trees down uh we really tried to keep up at you know as directed by Council and and trying to be a little bit conservative to keep up with the staff that we have and um you know treating and things like that I think we're at a point now where you know we're probably a couple two three years into you know kind of mass die off it's helpful all right council member edberg thank you Mr Copy how many uh so of the proposed budget um Levy portion how many of those dollars would be necessary would we have to come up with if we zeroed this out and then subsequently got the grant State Grant what's what's the match component of the 150 and what portion of the um funding is necessary for the renewed two-year treatment um because we've been treating uh some trees the specimen trees for to protect them that seems to be an effective measure at least I'm still hearing that that's effective but it has to be renewed every two years what's our what portion of the uh um Levy about it uh would be required to maintain L levels of vaccination if you will uh mayor mayor members of the council so uh to date over the last about five years we've been spending between 25 and $30,000 to treat the trees that price obviously keeps going up so we started you know probably closer to 20 when we first started 5 years ago we're up to about $30,000 to treat those um trees um and I forgive me I don't have the exact number but it's about 600 total trees if I recall correctly so about 300 every other year um that we've been treating um so uh again like you said it's an alternating cycle so every other year we keep treating roughly 300 trees um so of that said if we continue treating just to kind of help prolong um the uh um kind of that process um the additional um money that we put towards it uh was to help uh if we get this grant money um so the two grants that we applied for were $500,000 each um we heard one for sure that we are not getting um we're still waiting to here on the second Grant um so again it's roughly $500,000 um of the kind of total estimated we'looking at about a $3 million removal and replacement program um that being said um roughly about 2 million of it is the removal cost and roughly uh 1 million would be kind of the replacement restoration uh that component um until we get actual bids um those are our best guest working with local Tre contractors uh um landscapers uh stump grinders people like that to get cost as close as we could to submit for these grants um what else can I tell you um what's the match amount on 500,000 um so of the match there's there's not technically a match but there are components that of that program that are not covered so um the the things that staff knows is not covered is the the restoration so once we go in we grind that stump the hauling away of the of the material the um the restoration the soing the seating of people's yards is not covered um likewise uh in talking with contractors the most efficient way to do this is uh to come in and do you know a mass you know block by block so that's the most cost effective shut a street down cut all the ases down haul them away and move them up so that's the most cost effective there's going to be some uh based on the grants where we have to replace one for one there are areas in town that we have that we know uh in in some of the uh you recall the water Gremlin tree planting program the free trees that we got there's a lot of areas that we go in and we cannot replace so those would be ineligible for um the grant money so we might come into a neighborhood or whatnot we say well let's skip that street because we know we have a sewer m or a water M under that Boulevard we can't plant trees um they'd be over the utilities they'd be you know under overhead power lines things like that they might have started that way years ago but uh we would not in today's uh you know U best judgment put them back in those areas so uh removal of those trees might not be covered so it's cover those gaps where we know that we can't get uh um we can't count that specific removal for funding and then likewise the uh all the restoration of those areas that we would do the actual removals last thing i' just not is that I have received a number of uh unsolicited comments from from citizens the storm this past summer affected not just Elms excuse me oh U ashes but uh drive up 61 and uh by Goose Lake and take a look at the dead Willows and all of the other that are part of the experience entering our city um our neighborhoods this is a big deal and it's not yeah we can monetize it um there was a time 1961 when we were a tree City USA or whatever that's worth it's like trees are important they'not taxpayers though I'm not sure they're citizens either council member Jones so my biggest concern is I don't think 150 is enough because I think we'll spend that taking down the ones that are already dead as I walk my block and a half to Sunrise and do the loop around to Birch and come back on my mcnight I count 15 dead trees half of which were not dead last year they weren't dead and they're on the boulevard they're in city right away what are we going to do about those they're dead and 50 Grand isn't going to touch that cuz I can't believe my neighborhood's any different than anywhere else where they planted Emerald Ash boore so I I think it's going to be emergency fund usage because I this is Cedar Avenue this is mcnight these are roads that are traveled and at least two or three including the one in my front yard if if it falls the right direction it's falling on my house and I'm not being dramatic it's the these are 60-year-old they're big Ash ash trees and and that's not the only one so that that's my big concern is what is the city doing about these trees that are dead there are no they're dead what are we doing about them they're on the boulevard do something about it fix it that's what I'm being told and it's like well we got to have money thank you Mr mayor council member Walsh uh well thank you Mr Mayor I I um after listening to Mr Copy uh discussed the Grant I don't want to screw up the Grant I think thatd be foolish uh if we have we're in store for $500,000 Grant and we need some money to uh keep up with that you know in terms of the restoration and the planting on the side um I think I think the taking the whole 150,000 is not necessary not prudent um so if if I don't know the procedure if I can just change my Amendment amend my Amendment change the number to 75 instead of 150 that leaves half of the money in there by the way no one's arguing that that it's not a good idea this is not this is not an argument on the merits of the proposal it's just on the the timing and the balancing for for this year's uh tax hit so there's no there's no I agree with all of the need um so I don't know if the seconder needs to agree but uh but I'd go from 15 50 to 75,000 uh this year and then we'll just kick into it as we go what the fer City attorney on how how best to handle this if you can just withdraw your Amendment and bring another one what would you suggest? yeah as long as the council is okay with understanding it's 75 uh not 150 procedurally it's better to have a a separate amendment to amend the number but um it's council's choice and how formal you want to be I like formality so um so there should be a motion to amend then the amendment? yes okay so a motion to amend the amendment uh move my I'll move to amend my amendment to to 75,000 instead of the whole 150,000 do have a second? second any further discussion on that? council member Jones can I please with that budget say that again with that 150,000 what part of that is like prevent like there's trees dying right now that need to come down all right so hang on maybe I misspoke why don't we do this since council member Walsh offered the amendment let's give him a chance to to articulate further why he's bringing that if you unless you are felt you a fair opportunity but I was just getting started I mean go ahead if you don't mind Council Jones go ahead the only the I'm just going to say the reason I I think the I think the tax increase is too high uh we heard a little bit of people at tax truth and Taxation meeting um vo that I've heard it more this year than any other year been on the council about the size of this Levy and all the other economic pressures going on and all the other parts of that Levy the the school district piece the Ramsey County piece um affecting people so so when you look at this budget you say right what are we going to cut um I I do agree and I've said this before there's not a lot of fat in this budget there's not a lot of fluff there's not a lot of things you can point at and say that you know we could we could get we could do without the the big increases in this budget we've talked about we've we are we are um getting our staff salaries in line we're on a we're on a multi-year journey to do that it's painful uh for taxpayers it's it's you know it's it's a two-part process where we're catching them up and giving them raises to to to kind of keep them caught up um that's a big part of this increase this year we are building a new building next door everybody can see that you can actually see it so you should understand that that's going to have a lot of debt service and it begins now that's a big part of this budget um we are adding firefighters two more this year there's a few more years of this uh left before we're done it's a decision we've collectively made kind of been made for us with the with with the fact that we kind of have to go fulltime but we've made this decision to go down this path and it's I'm not going to move to strike one or two of the firefighters we got lucky last year maybe the year before paid for with federal arpa funds uh that just put off the pain until this year you seen that okay so the only thing left really to try to ease the pain on the on this this increase is the emerald ashbo money now um you know it's $150,000 in 2024 maybe I'm catching the body language from the down the other end of the Das that maybe cutting all of that is a mistake uh so maybe there's another number that that's more appropriate if we could make a budget impact um to lower the levy but not um cause emergencies um so I'm open to another number if there's a more reasonable number to propose uh but I think we should make one more cut tonight um at this table to show an effort to the citizens that uh that we are trying to keep this low and and this and this honestly this this is um this is a delay somebody somebody can't you just put things off well we can and we've done that a lot and we so this is a delay it's not going to mean we'not going to do it eventually but but this year with this I don't believe we'll be back to 20% next year I believe we'll be more in line with other years um certainly hope that's the case and we'll work towards that but so uh let's delay this uh uh this tree issue for for one year that's that's the amendment I'm open to discussion on the amount if there's a better number um Council M Jones if you have comments I'm inclined to say uh it might be helpful if we had City staff maybe help illustrate what it is we're doing here that'll help inform the council so Mr Copy if maybe if you could shed some light on just what this money is to be spent on and what it is is part of part of a broader kind of multi-year approach to tackling this issue mayor members of the council um I believe EAB started well the program generally started in 2018 with a tree inventory um showing that we have just over 2,000 uh trees within the public right away in our public uh active Park areas not including The Preserve type area so we have you know roughly 2,000 uh ash trees uh We've City staff over the uh last 5 years or so have uh used about 25 or so thousand per year to treat some of the specimen trees um at council's uh um direction to um try to see how long we can forgo this the big issue um the last two or so years we have seen a huge decline in in uh those trees um the trees that we've been treating have been more of the specimen trees um trying to again prolong or kind of delay this whole whole problem um now we are seeing a huge decline even in private property trees so each one of our residents are homeowners we're getting complaints from you know uh neighbors things like that you know my neighbor's tree is dying it's going to fall in my house those kind of things um and we are having um trouble keeping up with inspections um tagging um you know our ordinance say that um homeowner shall remove upon you know the death of that tree when we can't even keep track of our own um that being said uh we have also applied for some uh grant money um that we're still waiting a here on um some of that requires our own um contributions our in in kind match to do some of the things that the grants do not allow us to cover such as restoration um certain other things so and then kind of the longer term maintenance so that being said if we get this Grant and we don't have the money we can't fulfill the terms of that Grant as well so those are the big issues that Public Works are tree inspectors are seeing throughout the community um we took a pause um you know we had our uh Council Workshop earlier earlier this year to discuss this to look at over the winter um part of that tree um you know the Grant application is actually fulfilling you know what council directed staff as taking ownership and responsibility for those uh trees in our boulevards those properties that we own control um not a the split and kind of um inconsistencies that our own ordinance as so um that is part of the grant um language that we wrote um so that we if we are successful with this grant that is part of it is to take ownership and responsibility for those trees um and part of this money that was budgeted would be to help fulfill that um any uh uh responsibilities under the grant money so so thank you that was helpful I just want to drill down even further this money that we're allocating in this budget we're going to be removed removing emerald ash trees that are infected with this or ones that aren't I want to know physically what what work is being done um great great question uh mayor members of the council uh as far as uh the proposal um for the city money U we would always Envision you know obviously that removal to get rid of that immediate Hazard the dead tree um but at the same time um these grants require that uh trees be also be replaced so it goes above them beyond that um the trees that we um not only take down we also replace so at the tuna of you know approximately $1,000 each to remove a tree um another $2 to $300 to replace a tree plus restoration which none of the grants cover uh we start getting up into that neighborhood of you know up to $1,500 per tree you know times 2,000 you know so we're looking at a big price tag over a short period of time time um the estimation of our city force or city parks department who are you know certified tree inspectors that are out there monitoring um the issue um you know Miss Crawford said you know seven eight years uh we're going to be at the tail end of that we're going to be taking a lot of dead trees down we're we're behind the eightball right now there's more than what we can keep up with um City staff tried to our parks and and public work staff tried to keep up uh we moving we could our own trees uh curon ordinance say certain Boulevard trees are split between the city and the homeowner so again a huge cost and and burden on on our on our residents in that respect so um yeah so ultimately it would be the removal uh removal of the stump replacement um you know reforestation of our boulevards uh restoration of the area that we take the tree out uh removal disposal of that uh wood um can't just be brought anywhere it's got to be disposable properly um chipped up um and you know not too further um um progress that infestation of EAB so covers the whole gamut yeah so the end game in this infestation is all asht trees in the cities are in the city are eventually going to go and that's true of every city right so it's just a matter of when do we start which we haven't really we've just kind of treated and sort of picked at the edges so far this budget proposal is the first step forward in saying we're actually going to start on that multi-year process of correcting this issue at least with the the trees that the city of White Bear Lake is responsible for true statement? correct okay so then for the council then it just becomes a question of when do we want to do that I think this is I would hope is likely ripe for maybe some State funding because this is a this is a big expensive issue and it weren the city of wiper isn't unique to it and there's lots and lots of private property owners that that um are going to incur a large cost so my thought would be as much as I appreciate council member Walsh's effort to to curtail the budget maybe we don't spend the full full amount this year because um it is a high tax levy increase but um I think spending some money and beginning this process is probably important because the writing's on the wall the the infestation is here and eventually these trees got to go I'd rather I'd rather be proactive and I'll defer to the city engineer and whether we're at that critical mass yet I don't want to see limbs falling on roads uh or trees falling down cuz that's just a whole another problem in and of itself so let's let's get them when we know that they're infested but structurally still intact enough that they'not a public safety issue so on that note can you Aline a little bit on as this INF infestation takes over on a tree I assume at some point it does become a public safety issue in terms of the the level of degradation of the tree is that correct uh mayor members of the council that is correct um so one thing to note is with ash trees is they tend to one especially with the EAB dive extremely quickly um the uh the emerald ash b as you might be aware um eat the you know kind of the inner layers of the tree um and really I hate to say overnight but very quickly uh kill that tree and ash trees are very susceptible to limbs um becoming very brittle and falling in a uh very short period of time unlike maybe an oak or Maple where you know even in my own yard I have you know some dead oak trees and it's been 10 years and I haven't lost a branch um uh ases tend to get brittle very quickly and within a several years um you know branches start falling and those are the complaints that we get from you know adjacent Property Owners uh um you know again our ordinances are are somewhat am ambiguous and hard to understand for residents that they are so we get a lot of calls from residents about Boulevard trees and it's tough to say well we're going to leave the boulevard tree for now but you have to take the Dead Ash tree in your yard because ordinance says you have to take your as down upon notification so some of those kind of things that we're staff has been difficult uh communicating to to Residents um and then um just the uh yeah the fact that we are actually kind of um behind the eightball on this one we are probably a couple years behind the where we really should have started you know kind of mass taking trees down uh we really tried to keep up at you know as directed by Council and and trying to be a little bit conservative to keep up with the staff that we have and um you know treating and things like that I think we're at a point now where you know we're probably a couple two three years into you know kind of mass die off it's helpful all right council member edberg thank you Mr Copy how many uh so of the proposed budget um Levy portion how many of those dollars would be necessary would we have to come up with if we zeroed this out and then subsequently got the grant State Grant what's what's the match component of the 150 and what portion of the um funding is necessary for the renewed two-year treatment um because we've been treating uh some trees the specimen trees for to protect them that seems to be an effective measure at least I'm still hearing that that's effective but it has to be renewed every two years what's our what portion of the uh um Levy about it uh would be required to maintain L levels of vaccination if you will uh mayor mayor members of the council so uh to date over the last about five years we've been spending between 25 and $30,000 to treat the trees that price obviously keeps going up so we started you know probably closer to 20 when we first started 5 years ago we're up to about $30,000 to treat those um trees um and I forgive me I don't have the exact number but it's about 600 total trees if I recall correctly so about 300 every other year um that we've been treating um so uh again like you said it's an alternating cycle so every other year we keep treating roughly 300 trees um so of that said if we continue treating just to kind of help prolong um the uh um kind of that process um the additional um money that we put towards it uh was to help uh if we get this grant money um so the two grants that we applied for were $500,000 each um we heard one for sure that we are not getting um we're still waiting to here on the second Grant um so again it's roughly $500,000 um of the kind of total estimated we'looking at about a $3 million removal and replacement program um that being said um roughly about 2 million of it is the removal cost and roughly uh 1 million would be kind of the replacement restoration uh that component um until we get actual bids um those are our best guest working with local Tre contractors uh um landscapers uh stump grinders people like that to get cost as close as we could to submit for these grants um what else can I tell you um what's the match amount on 500,000 um so of the match there's not technically a match but there are components that of that program that are not covered so um the the things that staff knows is not covered is the the restoration so once we go in we grind that stump the hauling away of the of the material the um the restoration the soing the seating of people's yards is not covered um likewise uh in talking with contractors the most efficient way to do this is uh to come in and do you know a mass you know block by block so that's the most cost effective shut a street down cut all the ases down haul them away and move them up so that's the most cost effective there's going to be some uh based on the grants where we have to replace one for one there are areas in town that we have that we know uh in in some of the uh you recall the water Gremlin tree planting program the free trees that we got there's a lot of areas that we go in and we cannot replace so those would be ineligible for um the grant money so we might come into a neighborhood or whatnot we say well let' skip that street because we know we have a sewer m or a water M under that Boulevard we can't plant trees um they'd be over the utilities they'd be you know under overhead power lines things like that they might have started that way years ago but uh we would not in today's uh you know U best judgment put them back in those areas so uh removal of those trees might not be covered so it's cover those gaps where we know that we can't get uh um we can't count that specific removal for funding and then likewise the uh all the restoration of those areas that we would do the actual removals last thing i' just not is that I have received a number of uh unsolicited comments from from citizens the storm this past summer affected not just Elms excuse me oh U ashes but uh drive up 61 and uh by Goose Lake and take a look at the dead Willows and all of the other that are part of the experience entering our city um our neighborhoods this is a big deal and it's not yeah we can monetize it um there was a time 1961 when we were a tree City USA or whatever that's worth it's like trees are important they'not taxpayers though I'm not sure they're citizens either council member Jones so my biggest concern is I don't think 150 is enough because I think we'll spend that taking down the ones that are already dead as I walk my block and a half to Sunrise and do the loop around to Birch and come back on my mcnight I count 15 dead trees half of which were not dead last year they weren't dead and they're on the boulevard they're in city right away what are we going to do about those they're dead and 50 Grand isn't going to touch that cuz I can't believe my neighborhood's any different than anywhere else where they planted Emerald Ash boore so I I think it's going to be emergency fund usage because I this is Cedar Avenue this is mcnight these are roads that are traveled and at least two or three including the one in my front yard if if it falls the right direction it's falling on my house and I'm not being dramatic it's the these are 60-year-old they're big Ash ash trees and and that's not the only one so that that's my big concern is what is the city doing about these trees that are dead there are no they're dead what are we doing about them they're on the boulevard do something about it fix it that's what I'm being told and it's like well we got to have money thank you Mr mayor council member Walsh uh well thank you Mr Mayor I I um after listening to Mr Copy uh discussed the Grant I don't want to screw up the Grant I think thatd be foolish uh if we have we're in store for $500,000 Grant and we need some money to uh keep up with that you know in terms of the restoration and the planting on the side um I think I think the taking the whole 150,000 is not necessary not prudent um so if if I don't know the procedure if I can just change my Amendment amend my Amendment change the number to 75 instead of 150 that leaves half of the money in there by the way no one's arguing that that it's not a good idea this is not this is not an argument on the merits of the proposal it's just on the the timing and the balancing for for this year's uh tax hit so there's no there's no I agree with all of the need um so I don't know if the seconder needs to agree but uh but I'd go from 15 50 to 75,000 uh this year and then we'll just kick into it as we go what the fer City attorney on how how best to handle this if you can just withdraw your Amendment and bring another one what would you suggest? yeah as long as the council is okay with understanding it's 75 uh not 150 procedurally it's better to have a a separate amendment to amend the number but um it's council's choice and how formal you want to be I like formality so um so there should be a motion to amend then the amendment? yes okay so a motion to amend the amendment uh move my I'll move to amend my amendment to to 75,000 instead of the whole 150,000 do have a second? second any further discussion on that? council member Jones can I please with that budget say that again with that 150,000 what part of that is like prevent like there's trees dying right now that need to come down all right so hang on maybe I misspoke why don't we do this since council member Walsh offered the amendment let's give him a chance to to articulate further why he's bringing that if you unless you are felt you a fair opportunity but I was just getting started I mean go ahead if you don't mind Council Jones go ahead the only the I'm just going to say the reason I I think the I think the tax increase is too high uh we heard a little bit of people at tax truth and Taxation meeting um vo that I've heard it more this year than any other year been on the council about the size of this Levy and all the other economic pressures going on and all the other parts of that Levy the the school district piece the Ramsey County piece um affecting people so so when you look at this budget you say right what are we going to cut um I I do agree and I've said this before there's not a lot of fat in this budget there's not a lot of fluff there's not a lot of things you can point at and say that you know we could we could get we could do without the the big increases in this budget we've talked about we've we are we are um getting our staff salaries in line we're on a we're on a multi-year journey to do that it's painful uh for taxpayers it's it's you know it's it's a two-part process where we're catching them up and giving them raises to to to kind of keep them caught up um that's a big part of this increase this year we are building a new building next door everybody can see that you can actually see it so you should understand that that's going to have a lot of debt service and it begins now that's a big part of this budget um we are adding firefighters two more this year there's a few more years of this uh left before we're done it's a decision we've collectively made kind of been made for us with the with with the fact that we kind of have to go fulltime but we've made this decision to go down this path and it's I'm not going to move to strike one or two of the firefighters we got lucky last year maybe the year before paid for with federal arpa funds uh that just put off the pain until this year you seen that okay so the only thing left really to try to ease the pain on the on this this increase is the emerald ashbo money now um you know it's $150,000 in 2024 maybe I'm catching the body language from the down the other end of the Das that maybe cutting all of that is a mistake uh so maybe there's another number that that's more appropriate if we could make a budget impact um to lower the levy but not um cause emergencies um so I'm open to another number if there's a more reasonable number to propose uh but I think we should make one more cut tonight um at this table to show an effort to the citizens that uh that we are trying to keep this low and and this and this honestly this this is um this is a delay somebody somebody can't you just put things off well we can and we've done that a lot and we so this is a delay it's not going to mean we'not going to do it eventually but but this year with this I don't believe we'll be back to 20% next year I believe we'll be more in line with other years um certainly hope that's the case and we'll work towards that but so uh let's delay this uh uh this tree issue for for one year that's that's the amendment I'm open to discussion on the amount if there's a better number um Council M Jones if you have comments I'm inclined to say uh it might be helpful if we had City staff maybe help illustrate what it is we're doing here that'll help inform the council so Mr Copy if maybe if you could shed some light on just what this money is to be spent on and what it is is part of part of a broader kind of multi-year approach to tackling this issue mayor members of the council um I believe EAB started well the program generally started in 2018 with a tree inventory um showing that we have just over 2,000 uh trees within the public right away in our public uh active Park areas not including The Preserve type area so we have you know roughly 2,000 uh ash trees uh We've City staff over the uh last 5 years or so have uh used about 25 or so thousand per year to treat some of the specimen trees um at council's uh um direction to um try to see how long we can forgo this the big issue um the last two or so years we have seen a huge decline in in uh those trees um the trees that we've been treating have been more of the specimen trees um trying to again prolong or kind of delay this whole whole problem um now we are seeing a huge decline even in private property trees so each one of our residents are homeowners we're getting complaints from you know uh neighbors things like that you know my neighbor's tree is dying it's going to fall in my house those kind of things um and we are having um trouble keeping up with inspections um tagging um you know our ordinance say that um homeowner shall remove upon you know the death of that tree when we can't even keep track of our own um that being said uh we have also applied for some uh grant money um that we're still waiting a here on um some of that requires our own um contributions our in in kind match to do some of the things that the grants do not allow us to cover such as restoration um certain other things so and then kind of the longer term maintenance so that being said if we get this Grant and we don't have the money we can't fulfill the terms of that Grant as well so those are the big issues that Public Works are tree inspectors are seeing throughout the community um we took a pause um you know we had our uh Council Workshop earlier earlier this year to discuss this to look at over the winter um part of that tree um you know the Grant application is actually fulfilling you know what council directed staff as taking ownership and responsibility for those uh trees in our boulevards those properties that we own control um not a the split and kind of um inconsistencies that our own ordinance as so um that is part of the grant um language that we wrote um so that we if we are successful with this grant that is part of it is to take ownership and responsibility for those trees um and part of this money that was budgeted would be to help fulfill that um any uh uh responsibilities under the grant money so so thank you that was helpful I just want to drill down even further this money that we're allocating in this budget we're going to be removed removing emerald ash trees that are infected with this or ones that aren't I want to know physically what what work is being done um great great question uh mayor members of the council uh as far as uh the proposal um for the city money U we would always Envision you know obviously that removal to get rid of that immediate Hazard the dead tree um but at the same time um these grants require that uh trees be also be replaced so it goes above them beyond that um the trees that we um not only take down we also replace so at the tuna of you know approximately $1,000 each to remove a tree um another $2 to $300 to replace a tree plus restoration which none of the grants cover uh we start getting up into that neighborhood of you know up to $1,500 per tree you know times 2,000 you know so we're looking at a big price tag over a short period of time time um the estimation of our city force or city parks department who are you know certified tree inspectors that are out there monitoring um the issue um you know Miss Crawford said you know seven eight years uh we're going to be at the tail end of that we're going to be taking a lot of dead trees down we're we're behind the eightball right now there's more than what we can keep up with um City staff tried to our parks and and public work staff tried to keep up uh we moving we could our own trees uh curon ordinance say certain Boulevard trees are split between the city and the homeowner so again a huge cost and and burden on on our on our residents in that respect so um yeah so ultimately it would be the removal uh removal of the stump replacement um you know reforestation of our boulevards uh restoration of the area that we take the tree out uh removal disposal of that uh wood um can't just be brought anywhere it's got to be disposable properly um chipped up um and you know not too further um um progress that infestation of EAB so covers the whole gamut yeah so the end game in this infestation is all asht trees in the cities are in the city are eventually going to go and that's true of every city right so it's just a matter of when do we start which we haven't really we've just kind of treated and sort of picked at the edges so far this budget proposal is the first step forward in saying we're actually going to start on that multi-year process of correcting this issue at least with the the trees that the city of White Bear Lake is responsible for true statement? correct okay so then for the council then it just becomes a question of when do we want to do that I think this is I would hope is likely ripe for maybe some State funding because this is a this is a big expensive issue and it weren the city of wiper isn't unique to it and there's lots and lots of private property owners that that um are going to incur a large cost so my thought would be as much as I appreciate council member Walsh's effort to to curtail the budget maybe we don't spend the full full amount this year because um it is a high tax levy increase but um I think spending some money and beginning this process is probably important because the writing's on the wall the the infestation is here and eventually these trees got to go I'd rather I'd rather be proactive and I'll defer to the city engineer and whether we're at that critical mass yet I don't want to see limbs falling on roads uh or trees falling down cuz that's just a whole another problem in and of itself so let's let's get them when we know that they're infested but structurally still intact enough that they'not a public safety issue so on that note can you Aline a little bit on as this INF infestation takes over on a tree I assume at some point it does become a public safety issue in terms of the the level of degradation of the tree is that correct uh mayor members of the council that is correct um so one thing to note is with ash trees is they tend to one especially with the EAB dive extremely quickly um the uh the emerald ash b as you might be aware um eat the you know kind of the inner layers of the tree um and really I hate to say overnight but very quickly uh kill that tree and ash trees are very susceptible to limbs um becoming very brittle and falling in a uh very short period of time unlike maybe an oak or Maple where you know even in my own yard I have you know some dead oak trees and it's been 10 years and I haven't lost a branch um uh ases tend to get brittle very quickly and within a several years um you know branches start falling and those are the complaints that we get from you know adjacent Property Owners uh um you know again our ordinances are are somewhat am ambiguous and hard to understand for residents that they are so we get a lot of calls from residents about Boulevard trees and it's tough to say well we're going to leave the boulevard tree for now but you have to take the Dead Ash tree in your yard because ordinance says you have to take your as down upon notification so some of those kind of things that we're staff has been difficult uh communicating to to Residents um and then um just the uh yeah the fact that we are actually kind of um behind the eightball on this one we are probably a couple years behind the where we really should have started you know kind of mass taking trees down uh we really tried to keep up at you know as directed by Council and and trying to be a little bit conservative to keep up with the staff that we have and um you know treating and things like that I think we're at a point now where you know we're probably a couple two three years into you know kind of mass die off it's helpful all right council member edberg thank you Mr Copy how many uh so of the proposed budget um Levy portion how many of those dollars would be necessary would we have to come up with if we zeroed this out and then subsequently got the grant State Grant what's what's the match component of the 150 and what portion of the um funding is necessary for the renewed two-year treatment um because we've been treating uh some trees the specimen trees for to protect them that seems to be an effective measure at least I'm still hearing that that's effective but it has to be renewed every two years what's our what portion of the uh um Levy about it uh would be required to maintain L levels of vaccination if you will uh mayor mayor members of the council so uh to date over the last about five years we've been spending between 25 and $30,000 to treat the trees that price obviously keeps going up so we started you know probably closer to 20 when we first started 5 years ago we're up to about $30,000 to treat those um trees um and I forgive me I don't have the exact number but it's about 600 total trees if I recall correctly so about 300 every other year um that we've been treating um so uh again like you said it's an alternating cycle so every other year we keep treating roughly 300 trees um so of that said if we continue treating just to kind of help prolong um the uh um kind of that process um the additional um money that we put towards it uh was to help uh if we get this grant money um so the two grants that we applied for were $500,000 each um we heard one for sure that we are not getting um we're still waiting to here on the second Grant um so again it's roughly $500,000 um of the kind of total estimated we'looking at about a $3 million removal and replacement program um that being said um roughly about 2 million of it is the removal cost and roughly uh 1 million would be kind of the replacement restoration uh that component um until we get actual bids um those are our best guest working with local Tree contractors uh um landscapers uh stump grinders people like that to get cost as close as we could to submit for these grants um what else can I tell you um what's the match amount on 500,000 um so of the match there's not technically a match but there are components that of that program that are not covered so um the the things that staff knows is not covered is the the restoration so once we go in we grind that stump the hauling away of the of the material the um the restoration the soing the seating of people's yards is not covered um likewise uh in talking with contractors the most efficient way to do this is uh to come in and do you know a mass you know block by block so that's the most cost effective shut a street down cut all the ases down haul them away and move them up so that's the most cost effective there's going to be some uh based on the grants where we have to replace one for one there are areas in town that we have that we know uh in in some of the uh you recall the water Gremlin tree planting program the free trees that we got there's a lot of areas that we go in and we cannot replace so those would be ineligible for um the grant money so we might come into a neighborhood or whatnot we say well let'skip that street because we know we have a sewer m or a water M under that Boulevard we can't plant trees um they'd be over the utilities they'd be you know under overhead power lines things like that they might have started that way years ago but uh we would not in today's uh you know U best judgment put them back in those areas so uh removal of those trees might not be covered so it's cover those gaps where we know that we can't get uh um we can't count that specific removal for funding and then likewise the uh all the restoration of those areas that we would do the actual removals last thing i' just not is that I have received a number of uh unsolicited comments from from citizens the storm this past summer affected not just Elms excuse me oh U ashes but uh drive up 61 and uh by Goose Lake and take a look at the dead Willows and all of the other that are part of the experience entering our city um our neighborhoods this is a big deal and it's not yeah we can monetize it um there was a time 1961 when we were a tree City USA or whatever that's worth it's like trees are important they'not taxpayers though I'm not sure they're citizens either council member Jones so my biggest concern is I don't think 150 is enough because I think we'll spend that taking down the ones that are already dead as I walk my block and a half to Sunrise and do the loop around to Birch and come back on my mcnight I count 15 dead trees half of which were not dead last year they weren't dead and they're on the boulevard they're in city right away what are we going to do about those they're dead and 50 Grand isn't going to touch that cuz I can't believe my neighborhood's any different than anywhere else where they planted Emerald Ash boore so I I think it's going to be emergency fund usage because I this is Cedar Avenue this is mcnight these are roads that are traveled and at least two or three including the one in my front yard if if it falls the right direction it's falling on my house and I'm not being dramatic it's the these are 60-year-old they're big Ash ash trees and and that's not the only one so that that's my big concern is what is the city doing about these trees that are dead there are no they're dead what are we doing about them they're on the boulevard do something about it fix it that's what I'm being told and it's like well we got to have money thank you Mr mayor council member Walsh uh well thank you Mr Mayor I I um after listening to Mr Copy uh discussed the Grant I don't want to screw up the Grant I think thatd be foolish uh if we have we're in store for $500,000 Grant and we need some money to uh keep up with that you know in terms of the restoration and the planting on the side um I think I think the taking the whole 150,000 is not necessary not prudent um so if if I don't know the procedure if I can just change my Amendment amend my Amendment change the number to 75 instead of 150 that leaves half of the money in there by the way no one's arguing that that it's not a good idea this is not this is not an argument on the merits of the proposal it's just on the the timing and the balancing for for this year's uh tax hit so there's no there's no I agree with all of the need um so I don't know if the seconder needs to agree but uh but I'd go from 15 50 to 75,000 uh this year and then we'll just kick into it as we go what the fer City attorney on how how best to handle this if you can just withdraw your Amendment and bring another one what would you suggest? yeah as long as the council is okay with understanding it's 75 uh not 150 procedurally it's better to have a a separate amendment to amend the number but um it's council's choice and how formal you want to be I like formality so um so there should be a motion to amend then the amendment? yes okay so a motion to amend the amendment uh move my I'll move to amend my amendment to to 75,000 instead of the whole 150,000 do have a second? second any further discussion on that? council member Jones can I please with that budget say that again with that 150,000 what part of that is like prevent like there's trees dying right now that need to come down all right so hang on maybe I misspoke why don't we do this since council member Walsh offered the amendment let's give him a chance to to articulate further why he's bringing that if you unless you are felt you a fair opportunity but I was just getting started I mean go ahead if you don't mind Council Jones go ahead the only the I'm just going to say the reason I I think the I think the tax increase is too high uh we heard a little bit of people at tax truth and Taxation meeting um vo that I'heard it more this year than any other year been on the council about the size of this Levy and all the other economic pressures going on and all the other parts of that Levy the the school district piece the Ramsey County piece um affecting people so so when you look at this budget you say right what are we going to cut um I I do agree and I've said this before there's not a lot of fat in this budget there's not a lot of fluff there's not a lot of things you can point at and say that you know we could we could get we could do without the the big increases in this budget we've talked about we've we are we are um getting our staff salaries in line we're on a we're on a multi-year journey to do that it's painful uh for taxpayers it's it's you know it's it's a two-part process where we're catching them up and giving them raises to to to kind of keep them caught up um that's a big part of this increase this year we are building a new building next door everybody can see that you can actually see it so you should understand that that's going to have a lot of debt service and it begins now that's a big part of this budget um we are adding firefighters two more this year there's a few more years of this uh left before we're done it's a decision we've collectively made kind of been made for us with the with with the fact that we kind of have to go fulltime but we've made this decision to go down this path and it's I'm not going to move to strike one or two of the firefighters we got lucky last year maybe the year before paid for with federal arpa funds uh that just put off the pain until this year you seen that okay so the only thing left really to try to ease the pain on the on this this increase is the emerald ashbo money now um you know it's $150,000 in 2024 maybe I'm catching the body language from the down the other end of the Das that maybe cutting all of that is a mistake uh so maybe there's another number that that's more appropriate if we could make a budget impact um to lower the levy but not um cause emergencies um so I'm open to another number if there's a more reasonable number to propose uh but I think we should make one more cut tonight um at this table to show an effort to the citizens that uh that we are trying to keep this low and and this and this honestly this this is um this is a delay somebody somebody can't you just put things off well we can and we've done that a lot and we so this is a delay it's not going to mean we'not going to do it eventually but but this year with this I don't believe we'll be back to 20% next year I believe we'll be more in line with other years um certainly hope that's the case and we'll work towards that but so uh let's delay this uh uh this tree issue for for one year that's that's the amendment I'm open to discussion on the amount if there's a better number um Council M Jones if you have comments I'm inclined to say uh it might be helpful if we had City staff maybe help illustrate what it is we're doing here that'll help inform the council so Mr Copy if maybe if you could shed some light on just what this money is to be spent on and what it is is part of part of a broader kind of multi-year approach to tackling this issue mayor members of the council um I believe EAB started well the program generally started in 2018 with a tree inventory um showing that we have just over 2,000 uh trees within the public right away in our public uh active Park areas not including The Preserve type area so we have you know roughly 2,000 uh ash trees uh We've City staff over the uh last 5 years or so have uh used about 25 or so thousand per year to treat some of the specimen trees um at council's uh um direction to um try to see how long we can forgo this the big issue um the last two or so years we have seen a huge decline in in uh those trees um the trees that we've been treating have been more of the specimen trees um trying to again prolong or kind of delay this whole whole problem um now we are seeing a huge decline even in private property trees so each one of our residents are homeowners we're getting complaints from you know uh neighbors things like that you know my neighbor's tree is dying it's going to fall in my house those kind of things um and we are having um trouble keeping up with inspections um tagging um you know our ordinance say that um homeowner shall remove upon you know the death of that tree when we can't even keep track of our own um that being said uh we have also applied for some uh grant money um that we're still waiting a here on um some of that requires our own um contributions our in in kind match to do some of the things that the grants do not allow us to cover such as restoration um certain other things so and then kind of the longer term maintenance so that being said if we get this Grant and we don't have the money we can't fulfill the terms of that Grant as well so those are the big issues that Public Works are tree inspectors are seeing throughout the community um we took a pause um you know we had our uh Council Workshop earlier earlier this year to discuss this to look at over the winter um part of that tree um you know the Grant application is actually fulfilling you know what council directed staff as taking ownership and responsibility for those uh trees in our boulevards those properties that we own control um not a the split and kind of um inconsistencies that our own ordinance as so um that is part of the grant um language that we wrote um so that we if we are successful with this grant that is part of it is to take ownership and responsibility for those trees um and part of this money that was budgeted would be to help fulfill that um any uh uh responsibilities under the grant money so so thank you that was helpful I just want to drill down even further this money that we're allocating in this budget we're going to be removed removing emerald ash trees that are infected with this or ones that aren't I want to know physically what what work is being done um great great question uh mayor members of the council uh as far as uh the proposal um for the city money U we would always Envision you know obviously that removal to get rid of that immediate Hazard the dead tree um but at the same time um these grants require that uh trees be also be replaced so it goes above them beyond that um the trees that we um not only take down we also replace so at the tuna of you know approximately $1,000 each to remove a tree um another $2 to $300 to replace a tree plus restoration which none of the grants cover uh we start getting up into that neighborhood of you know up to $1,500 per tree you know times 2,000 you know so we're looking at a big price tag over a short period of time time um the estimation of our city force or city parks department who are you know certified tree inspectors that are out there monitoring um the issue um you know Miss Crawford said you know seven eight years uh we're going to be at the tail end of that we're going to be taking a lot of dead trees down we're we're behind the eightball right now there's more than what we can keep up with um City staff tried to our parks and and public work staff tried to keep up uh we moving we could our own trees uh curon ordinance say certain Boulevard trees are split between the city and the homeowner so again a huge cost and and burden on on our on our residents in that respect so um yeah so ultimately it would be the removal uh removal of the stump replacement um you know reforestation of our boulevards uh restoration of the area that we take the tree out uh removal disposal of that uh wood um can't just be brought anywhere it's got to be disposable properly um chipped up um and you know not too further um um progress that infestation of EAB so covers the whole gamut yeah so the end game in this infestation is all asht trees in the cities are in the city are eventually going to go and that's true of every city right so it's just a matter of when do we start which we haven't really we've just kind of treated and sort of picked at the edges so far this budget proposal is the first step forward in saying we'actually going to start on that multi-year process of correcting this issue at least with the the trees that the city of White Bear Lake is responsible for true statement? correct okay so then for the council then it just becomes a question of when do we want to do that I think this is I would hope is likely ripe for maybe some State funding because this is a this is a big expensive issue and it weren the city of wiper isn't unique to it and there's lots and lots of private property owners that that um are going to incur a large cost so my thought would be as much as I appreciate council member Walsh's effort to to curtail the budget maybe we don't spend the full full amount this year because um it is a high tax levy increase but um I think spending some money and beginning this process is probably important because the writing's on the wall the the infestation is here and eventually these trees got to go I'd rather I'd rather be proactive and I'll defer to the city engineer and whether we're at that critical mass yet I don't want to see limbs falling on roads uh or trees falling down cuz that's just a whole another problem in and of itself so let's let's get them when we know that they're infested but structurally still intact enough that they'not a public safety issue so on that note can you Aline a little bit on as this INF infestation takes over on a tree I assume at some point it does become a public safety issue in terms of the the level of degradation of the tree is that correct uh mayor members of the council that is correct um so one thing to note is with ash trees is they tend to one especially with the EAB dive extremely quickly um the uh the emerald ash b as you might be aware um eat the you know kind of the inner layers of the tree um and really I hate to say overnight but very quickly uh kill that tree and ash trees are very susceptible to limbs um becoming very brittle and falling in a uh very short period of time unlike maybe an oak or Maple where you know even in my own yard I have you know some dead oak trees and it's been 10 years and I haven't lost a branch um uh ases tend to get brittle very quickly and within a several years um you know branches start falling and those are the complaints that we get from you know adjacent Property Owners uh um you know again our ordinances are are somewhat am ambiguous and hard to understand for residents that they are so we get a lot of calls from residents about Boulevard trees and it's tough to say well we're going to leave the boulevard tree for now but you have to take the Dead Ash tree in your yard because ordinance says you have to take your as down upon notification so some of those kind of things that we're staff has been difficult uh communicating to to Residents um and then um just the uh yeah the fact that we are actually kind of um behind the eightball on this one we are probably a couple years behind the where we really should have started you know kind of mass taking trees down uh we really tried to keep up at you know as directed by Council and and trying to be a little bit conservative to keep up with the staff that we have and um you know treating and things like that I think we're at a point now where you know we're probably a couple two three years into you know kind of mass die off it's helpful all right council member edberg thank you Mr Copy how many uh so of the proposed budget um Levy portion how many of those dollars would be necessary would we have to come up with if we zeroed this out and then subsequently got the grant State Grant what's what's the match component of the 150 and what portion of the um funding is necessary for the renewed two-year treatment um because we've been treating uh some trees the specimen trees for to protect them that seems to be an effective measure at least I'm still hearing that that's effective but it has to be renewed every two years what's our what portion of the uh um Levy about it uh would be required to maintain L levels of vaccination if you will uh mayor mayor members of the council so uh to date over the last about five years we've been spending between 25 and $30,000 to treat the trees that price obviously keeps going up so we started you know probably closer to 20 when we first started 5 years ago we're up to about $30,000 to treat those um trees um and I forgive me I don't have the exact number but it's about 600 total trees if I recall correctly so about 300 every other year um that we've been treating um so uh again like you said it's an alternating cycle so every other year we keep treating roughly 300 trees um so of that said if we continue treating just to kind of help prolong um the uh um kind of that process um the additional um money that we put towards it uh was to help uh if we get this grant money um so the two grants that we applied for were $500,000 each um we heard one for sure that we are not getting um we're still waiting to here on the second Grant um so again it's roughly $500,000 um of the kind of total estimated we'looking at about a $3 million removal and replacement program um that being said um roughly about 2 million of it is the removal cost and roughly uh 1 million would be kind of the replacement restoration uh that component um until we get actual bids um those are our best guest working with local Tree contractors uh um landscapers uh stump grinders people like that to get cost as close as we could to submit for these grants um what else can I tell you um what's the match amount on 500,000 um so of the match there's not technically a match but there are components that of that program that are not covered so um the the things that staff knows is not covered is the the restoration so once we go in we grind that stump the hauling away of the of the material the um the restoration the soing the seating of people's yards is not covered um likewise uh in talking with contractors the most efficient way to do this is uh to come in and do you know a mass you know block by block so that's the most cost effective shut a street down cut all the ases down haul them away and move them up so that's the most cost effective there's going to be some uh based on the grants where we have to replace one for one there are areas in town that we have that we know uh in in some of the uh you recall the water Gremlin tree planting program the free trees that we got there's a lot of areas that we go in and we cannot replace so those would be ineligible for um the grant money so we might come into a neighborhood or whatnot we say well let'skip that street because we know we have a sewer m or a water M under that Boulevard we can't plant trees um they'd be over the utilities they'd be you know under overhead power lines things like that they might have started that way years ago but uh we would not in today's uh you know U best judgment put them back in those areas so uh removal of those trees might not be covered so it's cover those gaps where we know that we can't get uh um we can't count that specific removal for funding and then likewise the uh all the restoration of those areas that we would do the actual removals last thing i' just not is that I have received a number of uh unsolicited comments from from citizens the storm this past summer affected not just Elms excuse me oh U ashes but uh drive up 61 and uh by Goose Lake and take a look at the dead Willows and all of the other that are part of the experience entering our city um our neighborhoods this is a big deal and it's not yeah we can monetize it um there was a time 1961 when we were a tree City USA or whatever that's worth it's like trees are important they'not taxpayers though I'm not sure they're citizens either council member Jones so my biggest concern is I don't think 150 is enough because I think we'll spend that taking down the ones that are already dead as I walk my block and a half to Sunrise and do the loop around to Birch and come back on my mcnight I count 15 dead trees half of which were not dead last year they weren't dead and they're on the boulevard they're in city right away what are we going to do about those they're dead and 50 Grand isn't going to touch that cuz I can't believe my neighborhood's any different than anywhere else where they planted Emerald Ash boore so I I think it's going to be emergency fund usage because I this is Cedar Avenue this is mcnight these are roads that are traveled and at least two or three including the one in my front yard if if it falls the right direction it's falling on my house and I'm not being dramatic it's the these are 60-year-old they're big Ash ash trees and and that's not the only one so that that's my big concern is what is the city doing about these trees that are dead there are no they're dead what are we doing about them they're on the boulevard do something about it fix it that's what I'm being told and it's like well we got to have money thank you Mr mayor council member Walsh uh well thank you Mr Mayor I I um after listening to Mr Copy uh discussed the Grant I don't want to screw up the Grant I think thatd be foolish uh if we have we're in store for $500,000 Grant and we need some money to uh keep up with that you know in terms of the restoration and the planting on the side um I think I think the taking the whole 150,000 is not necessary not prudent um so if if I don't know the procedure if I can just change my Amendment amend my Amendment change the number to 75 instead of 150 that leaves half of the money in there by the way no one's arguing that that it's not a good idea this is not this is not an argument on the merits of the proposal it's just on the the timing and the balancing for for this year's uh tax hit so there's no there's no I agree with all of the need um so I don't know if the seconder needs to agree but uh but I'd go from 15 50 to 75,000 uh this year and then we'll just kick into it as we go what the fer City attorney on how how best to handle this if you can just withdraw your Amendment and bring another one what would you suggest? yeah as long as the council is okay with understanding it's 75 uh not 150 procedurally it's better to have a a separate amendment to amend the number but um it's council's choice and how formal you want to be I like formality so um so there should be a motion to amend then the amendment? yes okay so a motion to amend the amendment uh move my I'll move to amend my amendment to to 75,000 instead of the whole 150,000 do have a second? second any further discussion on that? council member Jones can I please with that budget say that again with that 150,000 what part of that is like prevent like there's trees dying right now that need to come down all right so hang on maybe I misspoke why don't we do this since council member Walsh offered the amendment let's give him a chance to to articulate further why he's bringing that if you unless you are felt you a fair opportunity but I was just getting started I mean go ahead if you don't mind Council Jones go ahead the only the I'm just going to say the reason I I think the I think the tax increase is too high uh we heard a little bit of people at tax truth and Taxation meeting um vo that I'heard it more this year than any other year been on the council about the size of this Levy and all the other economic pressures going on and all the other parts of that Levy the the school district piece the Ramsey County piece um affecting people so so when you look at this budget you say right what are we going to cut um I I do agree and I've said this before there's not a lot of fat in this budget there's not a lot of fluff there's not a lot of things you can point at and say that you know we could we could get we could do without the the big increases in this budget we've talked about we've we are we are um getting our staff salaries in line we're on a we're on a multi-year journey to do that it's painful uh for taxpayers it's it's you know it's it's a two-part process where we're catching them up and giving them raises to to to kind of keep them caught up um that's a big part of this increase this year we are building a new building next door everybody can see that you can actually see it so you should understand that that's going to have a lot of debt service and it begins now that's a big part of this budget um we are adding firefighters two more this year there's a few more years of this uh left before we're done it's a decision we've collectively made kind of been made for us with the with with the fact that we kind of have to go fulltime but we've made this decision to go down this path and it's I'm not going to move to strike one or two of the firefighters we got lucky last year maybe the year before paid for with federal arpa funds uh that just put off the pain until this year you seen that okay so the only thing left really to try to ease the pain on the on this this increase is the emerald ashbo money now um you know it's $150,000 in 2024 maybe I'm catching the body language from the down the other end of the Das that maybe cutting all of that is a mistake uh so maybe there's another number that that's more appropriate if we could make a budget impact um to lower the levy but not um cause emergencies um so I'm open to another number if there's a more reasonable number to propose uh but I think we should make one more cut tonight um at this table to show an effort to the citizens that uh that we are trying to keep this low and and this and this honestly this this is um this is a delay somebody somebody can't you just put things off well we can and we've done that a lot and we so this is a delay it's not going to mean we'not going to do it eventually but but this year with this I don't believe we'll be back to 20% next year I believe we'll be more in line with other years um certainly hope that's the case and we'll work towards that but so uh let's delay this uh uh this tree issue for for one year that's that's the amendment I'm open to discussion on the amount if there's a better number um Council M Jones if you have comments I'm inclined to say uh it might be helpful if we had City staff maybe help illustrate what it is we're doing here that'll help inform the council so Mr Copy if maybe if you could shed some light on just what this money is to be spent on and what it is is part of part of a broader kind of multi-year approach to tackling this issue mayor members of the council um I believe EAB started well the program generally started in 2018 with a tree inventory um showing that we have just over 2,000 uh trees within the public right away in our public uh active Park areas not including The Preserve type area so we have you know roughly 2,000 uh ash trees uh We've City staff over the uh last 5 years or so have uh used about 25 or so thousand per year to treat some of the specimen trees um at council's uh um direction to um try to see how long we can forgo this the big issue um the last two or so years we have seen a huge decline in in uh those trees um the trees that we've been treating have been more of the specimen trees um trying to again prolong or kind of delay this whole whole problem um now we are seeing a huge decline even in private property trees so each one of our residents are homeowners we're getting complaints from you know uh neighbors things like that you know my neighbor's tree is dying it's going to fall in my house those kind of things um and we are having um trouble keeping up with inspections um tagging um you know our ordinance say that um homeowner shall remove upon you know the death of that tree when we can't even keep track of our own um that being said uh we have also applied for some uh grant money um that we're still waiting a here on um some of that requires our own um contributions our in in kind match to do some of the things that the grants do not allow us to cover such as restoration um certain other things so and then kind of the longer term maintenance so that being said if we get this Grant and we don't have the money we can't fulfill the terms of that Grant as well so those are the big issues that Public Works are tree inspectors are seeing throughout the community um we took a pause um you know we had our uh Council Workshop earlier earlier this year to discuss this to look at over the winter um part of that tree um you know the Grant application is actually fulfilling you know what council directed staff as taking ownership and responsibility for those uh trees in our boulevards those properties that we own control um not a the split and kind of um inconsistencies that our own ordinance as so um that is part of the grant um language that we wrote um so that we if we are successful with this grant that is part of it is to take ownership and responsibility for those trees um and part of this money that was budgeted would be to help fulfill that um any uh uh responsibilities under the grant money so so thank you that was helpful I just want to drill down even further this money that we're allocating in this budget we're going to be removed removing emerald ash trees that are infected with this or ones that aren't I want to know physically what what work is being done um great great question uh mayor members of the council uh as far as uh the proposal um for the city money U we would always Envision you know obviously that removal to get rid of that immediate Hazard the dead tree um but at the same time um these grants require that uh trees be also be replaced so it goes above them beyond that um the trees that we um not only take down we also replace so at the tuna of you know approximately $1,000 each to remove a tree um another $2 to $300 to replace a tree plus restoration which none of the grants cover uh we start getting up into that neighborhood of you know up to $1,500 per tree you know times 2,000 you know so we're looking at a big price tag over a short period of time time um the estimation of our city force or city parks department who are you know certified tree inspectors that are out there monitoring um the issue um you know Miss Crawford said you know seven eight years uh we're going to be at the tail end of that we're going to be taking a lot of dead trees down we're we're behind the eightball right now there's more than what we can keep up with um City staff tried to our parks and and public work staff tried to keep up uh we moving we could our own trees uh curon ordinance say certain Boulevard trees are split between the city and the homeowner so again a huge cost and and burden on on our on our residents in that respect so um yeah so ultimately it would be the removal uh removal of the stump replacement um you know reforestation of our boulevards uh restoration of the area that we take the tree out uh removal disposal of that uh wood um can't just be brought anywhere it's got to be disposable properly um chipped up um and you know not too further um um progress that infestation of EAB so covers the whole gamut yeah so the end game in this infestation is all asht trees in the cities are in the city are eventually going to go and that's true of every city right so it's just a matter of when do we start which we haven't really we'just kind of treated and sort of picked at the edges so far this budget proposal is the first step forward in saying we'actually going to start on that multi-year process of correcting this issue at least with the the trees that the city of White Bear Lake is responsible for true statement? correct okay so then for the council then it just becomes a question of when do we want to do that I think this is I would hope is likely ripe for maybe some State funding because this is a this is a big expensive issue and it weren the city of wiper isn't unique to it and there's lots and lots of private property owners that that um are going to incur a large cost so my thought would be as much as I appreciate council member Walsh's effort to to curtail the budget maybe we don't spend the full full amount this year because um it is a high tax levy increase but um I think spending some money and beginning this process is probably important because the writing's on the wall the the infestation is here and eventually these trees got to go I'd rather I'd rather be proactive and I'll defer to the city engineer and whether we're at that critical mass yet I don't want to see limbs falling on roads uh or trees falling down cuz that's just a whole another problem in and of itself so let's let's get them when we know that they're infested but structurally still intact enough that they'not a public safety issue so on that note can you Aline a little bit on as this INF infestation takes over on a tree I assume at some point it does become a public safety issue in terms of the the level of degradation of the tree is that correct uh mayor members of the council that is correct um so one thing to note is with ash trees is they tend to one especially with the EAB dive extremely quickly um the uh the emerald ash b as you might be aware um eat the you know kind of the inner layers of the tree um and really I hate to say overnight but very quickly uh kill that tree and ash trees are very susceptible to limbs um becoming very brittle and falling in a uh very short period of time unlike maybe an oak or Maple where you know even in my own yard I have you know some dead oak trees and it's been 10 years and I haven't lost a branch um uh ases tend to get brittle very quickly and within a several years um you know branches start falling and those are the complaints that we get from you know adjacent Property Owners uh um you know again our ordinances are are somewhat am ambiguous and hard to understand for residents that they are so we get a lot of calls from residents about Boulevard trees and it's tough to say well we're going to leave the boulevard tree for now but you have to take the Dead Ash tree in your yard because ordinance says you have to take your as down upon notification so some of those kind of things that we're staff has been difficult uh communicating to to Residents um and then um just the uh yeah the fact that we are actually kind of um behind the eightball on this one we are probably a couple years behind the where we really should have started you know kind of mass taking trees down uh we really tried to keep up at you know as directed by Council and and trying to be a little bit conservative to keep up with the staff that we have and um you know treating and things like that I think we're at a point now where you know we're probably a couple two three years into you know kind of mass die off it's helpful all right council member edberg thank you Mr Copy how many uh so of the proposed budget um Levy portion how many of those dollars would be necessary would we have to come up with if we zeroed this out and then subsequently got the grant State Grant what's what's the match component of the 150 and what portion of the um funding is necessary for the renewed two-year treatment um because we've been treating uh some trees the specimen trees for to protect them that seems to be an effective measure at least I'm still hearing that that's effective but it has to be renewed every two years what's our what portion of the uh um Levy about it uh would be required to maintain L levels of vaccination if you will uh mayor mayor members of the council so uh to date over the last about five years we've been spending between 25 and $30,000 to treat the trees that price obviously keeps going up so we started you know probably closer to 20 when we first started 5 years ago we're up to about $30,000 to treat those um trees um and I forgive me I don't have the exact number but it's about 600 total trees if I recall correctly so about 300 every other year um that we've been treating um so uh again like you said it's an alternating cycle so every other year we keep treating roughly 300 trees um so of that said if we continue treating just to kind of help prolong um the uh um kind of that process um the additional um money that we put towards it uh was to help uh if we get this grant money um so the two grants that we applied for were $500,000 each um we heard one for sure that we are not getting um we're still waiting to here on the second Grant um so again it's roughly $500,000 um of the kind of total estimated we'looking at about a $3 million removal and replacement program um that being said um roughly about 2 million of it is the removal cost and roughly uh 1 million would be kind of the replacement restoration uh that component um until we get actual bids um those are our best guest working with local Tree contractors uh um landscapers uh stump grinders people like that to get cost as close as we could to submit for these grants um what else can I tell you um what's the match amount on 500,000 um so of the match there's not technically a match but there are components that of that program that are not covered so um the the things that staff knows is not covered is the the restoration so once we go in we grind that stump the hauling away of the of the material the um the restoration the soing the seating of people's yards is not covered um likewise uh in talking with contractors the most efficient way to do this is uh to come in and do you know a mass you know block by block so that's the most cost effective shut a street down cut all the ases down haul them away and move them up so that's the most cost effective there's going to be some uh based on the grants where we have to replace one for one there are areas in town that we have that we know uh in in some of the uh you recall the water Gremlin tree planting program the free trees that we got there's a lot of areas that we go in and we cannot replace so those would be ineligible for um the grant money so we might come into a neighborhood or whatnot we say well let'skip that street because we know we have a sewer m or a water M under that Boulevard we can't plant trees um they'd be over the utilities they'd be you know under overhead power lines things like that they might have started that way years ago but uh we would not in today's uh you know U best judgment put them back in those areas so uh removal of those trees might not be covered so it's cover those gaps where we know that we can't get uh um we can't count that specific removal for funding and then likewise the uh all the restoration of those areas that we would do the actual removals last thing i' just not is that I have received a number of uh unsolicited comments from from citizens the storm this past summer affected not just Elms excuse me oh U ashes but uh drive up 61 and uh by Goose Lake and take a look at the dead Willows and all of the other that are part of the experience entering our city um our neighborhoods this is a big deal and it's not yeah we can monetize it um there was a time 1961 when we were a tree City USA or whatever that's worth it's like trees are important they'not taxpayers though I'm not sure they're citizens either council member Jones so my biggest concern is I don't think 150 is enough because I think we'll spend that taking down the ones that are already dead as I walk my block and a half to Sunrise and do the loop around to Birch and come back on my mcnight I count 15 dead trees half of which were not dead last year they weren't dead and they're on the boulevard they're in city right away what are we going to do about those they're dead and 50 Grand isn't going to touch that cuz I can't believe my neighborhood's any different than anywhere else where they planted Emerald Ash boore so I I think it's going to be emergency fund usage because I this is Cedar Avenue this is mcnight these are roads that are traveled and at least two or three including the one in my front yard if if it falls the right direction it's falling on my house and I'm not being dramatic it's the these are 60-year-old they're big Ash ash trees and and that's not the only one so that that's my big concern is what is the city doing about these trees that are dead there are no they're dead what are we doing about them they're on the boulevard do something about it fix it that's what I'm being told and it's like well we got to have money thank you Mr mayor council member Walsh uh well thank you Mr Mayor I I um after listening to Mr Copy uh discussed the Grant I don't want to screw up the Grant I think thatd be foolish uh if we have we're in store for $500,000 Grant and we need some money to uh keep up with that you know in terms of the restoration and the planting on the side um I think I think the taking the whole 150,000 is not necessary not prudent um so if if I don't know the procedure if I can just change my Amendment amend my Amendment change the number to 75 instead of 150 that leaves half of the money in there by the way no one's arguing that that it's not a good idea this is not this is not an argument on the merits of the proposal it's just on the the timing and the balancing for for this year's uh tax hit so there's no there's no I agree with all of the need um so I don't know if the seconder needs to agree but uh but I'd go from 15 50 to 75,000 uh this year and then we'll just kick into it as we go what the fer City attorney on how how best to handle this if you can just withdraw your Amendment and bring another one what would you suggest? yeah as long as the council is okay with understanding it's 75 uh not 150 procedurally it's better to have a a separate amendment to amend the number but um it's council's choice and how formal you want to be I like formality so um so there should be a motion to amend then the amendment? yes okay so a motion to amend the amendment uh move my I'll move to amend my amendment to to 75,000 instead of the whole 150,000 do have a second? second any further discussion on that? council member Jones can I please with that budget say that again with that 150,000 what part of that is like prevent like there's trees dying right now that need to come down all right so hang on maybe I misspoke why don't we do this since council member Walsh offered the amendment let's give him a chance to to articulate further why he's bringing that if you unless you are felt you a fair opportunity but I was just getting started I mean go ahead if you don't mind Council Jones go ahead the only the I'm just going to say the reason I I think the I think the tax increase is too high uh we heard a little bit of people at tax truth and Taxation meeting um vo that I'heard it more this year than any other year been on the council about the size of this Levy and all the other economic pressures going on and all the other parts of that Levy the the school district piece the Ramsey County piece um affecting people so so when you look at this budget you say right what are we going to cut um I I do agree and I've said this before there's not a lot of fat in this budget there's not a lot of fluff there's not a lot of things you can point at and say that you know we could we could get we could do without the the big increases in this budget we've talked about we've we are we are um getting our staff salaries in line we're on a we're on a multi-year journey to do that it's painful uh for taxpayers it's it's you know it's it's a two-part process where we're catching them up and giving them raises to to to kind of keep them caught up um that's a big part of this increase this year we are building a new building next door everybody can see that you can actually see it so you should understand that that's going to have a lot of debt service and it begins now that's a big part of this budget um we are adding firefighters two more this year there's a few more years of this uh left before we're done it's a decision we've collectively made kind of been made for us with the with with the fact that we kind of have to go fulltime but we've made this decision to go down this path and it's I'm not going to move to strike one or two of the firefighters we got lucky last year maybe the year before paid for with federal arpa funds uh that just put off the pain until this year you seen that okay so the only thing left really to try to ease the pain on the on this this increase is the emerald ashbo money now um you know it's $150,000 in 2024 maybe I'm catching the body language from the down the other end of the Das that maybe cutting all of that is a mistake uh so maybe there's another number that that's more appropriate if we could make a budget impact um to lower the levy but not um cause emergencies um so I'm open to another number if there's a more reasonable number to propose uh but I think we should make one more cut tonight um at this table to show an effort to the citizens that uh that we are trying to keep this low and and this and this honestly this this is um this is a delay somebody somebody can't you just put things off well we can and we've done that a lot and we so this is a delay it's not going to mean we'not going to do it eventually but but this year with this I don't believe we'll be back to 20% next year I believe we'll be more in line with other years um certainly hope that's the case and we'll work towards that but so uh let's delay this uh uh this tree issue for for one year that's that's the amendment I'm open to discussion on the amount if there's a better number um Council M Jones if you have comments I'm inclined to say uh it might be helpful if we had City staff maybe help illustrate what it is we're doing here that'll help inform the council so Mr Copy if maybe if you could shed some light on just what this money is to be spent on and what it is is part of part of a broader kind of multi-year approach to tackling this issue mayor members of the council um I believe EAB started well the program generally started in 2018 with a tree inventory um showing that we have just over 2,000 uh trees within the public right away in our public uh active Park areas not including The Preserve type area so we have you know roughly 2,000 uh ash trees uh We've City staff over the uh last 5 years or so have uh used about 25 or so thousand per year to treat some of the specimen trees um at council's uh um direction to um try to see how long we can forgo this the big issue um the last two or so years we have seen a huge decline in in uh those trees um the trees that we've been treating have been more of the specimen trees um trying to again prolong or kind of delay this whole whole problem um now we are seeing a huge decline even in private property trees so each one of our residents are homeowners we're getting complaints from you know uh neighbors things like that you know my neighbor's tree is dying it's going to fall in my house those kind of things um and we are having um trouble keeping up with inspections um tagging um you know our ordinance say that um homeowner shall remove upon you know the death of that tree when we can't even keep track of our own um that being said uh we have also applied for some uh grant money um that we're still waiting a here on um some of that requires our own um contributions our in in kind match to do some of the things that the grants do not allow us to cover such as restoration um certain other things so and then kind of the longer term maintenance so that being said if we get this Grant and we don't have the money we can't fulfill the terms of that Grant as well so those are the big issues that Public Works are tree inspectors are seeing throughout the community um we took a pause um you know we had our uh Council Workshop earlier earlier this year to discuss this to look at over the winter um part of that tree um you know the Grant application is actually fulfilling you know what council directed staff as taking ownership and responsibility for those uh trees in our boulevards those properties that we own control um not a the split and kind of um inconsistencies that our own ordinance as so um that is part of the grant um language that we wrote um so that we if we are successful with this grant that is part of it is to take ownership and responsibility for those trees um and part of this money that was budgeted would be to help fulfill that um any uh uh responsibilities under the grant money so so thank you that was helpful I just want to drill down even further this money that we're allocating in this budget we're going to be removed removing emerald ash trees that are infected with this or ones that aren't I want to know physically what what work is being done um great great question uh mayor members of the council uh as far as uh the proposal um for the city money U we would always Envision you know obviously that removal to get rid of that immediate Hazard the dead tree um but at the same time um these grants require that uh trees be also be replaced so it goes above them beyond that um the trees that we um not only take down we also replace so at the tuna of you know approximately $1,000 each to remove a tree um another $2 to $300 to replace a tree plus restoration which none of the grants cover uh we start getting up into that neighborhood of you know up to $1,500 per tree you know times 2,000 you know so we're looking at a big price tag over a short period of time time um the estimation of our city force or city parks department who are you know certified tree inspectors that are out there monitoring um the issue um you know Miss Crawford said you know seven eight years uh we're going to be at the tail end of that we're going to be taking a lot of dead trees down we're we're behind the eightball right now there's more than what we can keep up with um City staff tried to our parks and and public work staff tried to keep up uh we moving we could our own trees uh curon ordinance say certain Boulevard trees are split between the city and the homeowner so again a huge cost and and burden on on our on our residents in that respect so um yeah so ultimately it would be the removal uh removal of the stump replacement um you know reforestation of our boulevards uh restoration of the area that we take the tree out uh removal disposal of that uh wood um can't just be brought anywhere it's got to be disposable properly um chipped up um and you know not too further um um progress that infestation of EAB so covers the whole gamut yeah so the end game in this infestation is all asht trees in the cities are in the city are eventually going to go and that's true of every city right so it's just a matter of when do we start which we haven't really we'just kind of treated and sort of picked at the edges so far this budget proposal is the first step forward in saying we'actually going to start on that multi-year process of correcting this issue at least with the the trees that the city of White Bear Lake is responsible for true statement? correct okay so then for the council then it just becomes a question of when do we want to do that I think this is I would hope is likely ripe for maybe some State funding because this is a this is a big expensive issue and it weren the city of wiper isn't unique to it and there's lots and lots of private property owners that that um are going to incur a large cost so my thought would be as much as I appreciate council member Walsh's effort to to curtail the budget maybe we don't spend the full full amount this year because um it is a high tax levy increase but um I think spending some money and beginning this process is probably important because the writing's on the wall the the infestation is here and eventually these trees got to go I'd rather I'd rather be proactive and I'll defer to the city engineer and whether we'at that critical mass yet I don't want to see limbs falling on roads uh or trees falling down cuz that's just a whole another problem in and of itself so let's let's get them when we know that they're infested but structurally still intact enough that they'not a public safety issue so on that note can you Aline a little bit on as this INF infestation takes over on a tree I assume at some point it does become a public safety issue in terms of the the level of degradation of the tree is that correct uh mayor members of the council that is correct um so one thing to note is with ash trees is they tend to one especially with the EAB dive extremely quickly um the uh the emerald ash b as you might be aware um eat the you know kind of the inner layers of the tree um and really I hate to say overnight but very quickly uh kill that tree and ash trees are very susceptible to limbs um becoming very brittle and falling in a uh very short period of time unlike maybe an oak or Maple where you know even in my own yard I have you know some dead oak trees and it's been 10 years and I haven't lost a branch um uh ases tend to get brittle very quickly and within a several years um you know branches start falling and those are the complaints that we get from you know adjacent Property Owners uh um you know again our ordinances are are somewhat am ambiguous and hard to understand for residents that they are so we get a lot of calls from residents about Boulevard trees and it's tough to say well we're going to leave the boulevard tree for now but you have to take the Dead Ash tree in your yard because ordinance says you have to take your as down upon notification so some of those kind of things that we're staff has been difficult uh communicating to to Residents um and then um just the uh yeah the fact that we are actually kind of um behind the eightball on this one we are probably a couple years behind the where we really should have started you know kind of mass taking trees down uh we really tried to keep up at you know as directed by Council and and trying to be a little bit conservative to keep up with the staff that we have and um you know treating and things like that I think we're at a point now where you know we're probably a couple two three years into you know kind of mass die off it's helpful all right council member edberg thank you Mr Copy how many uh so of the proposed budget um Levy portion how many of those dollars would be necessary would we have to come up with if we zeroed this out and then subsequently got the grant State Grant what's what's the match component of the 150 and what portion of the um funding is necessary for the renewed two-year treatment um because we've been treating uh some trees the specimen trees for to protect them that seems to be an effective measure at least I'm still hearing that that's effective but it has to be renewed every two years what's our what portion of the uh um Levy about it uh would be required to maintain L levels of vaccination if you will uh mayor mayor members of the