This transcript appears to be from the **White Bear Lake City Council** meeting held on **December 13, 2022**. Based on the context of the dialogue and the officials serving at that time, I have added the speaker names. Please note that timestamps are approximate markers to denote speaker transitions, as the original text did not include them. *** **[00:00:00] Mayor Dan Rouser:** I'm not sure sure but this could be a small blessings all right let's call the meeting to order will the clerk please note those in attendance be noted thank you will you please join me in the Pledge of Allegiance. **[00:00:15] Group:** I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. **[00:00:30] Mayor Dan Rouser:** All right let's jump right into item 2B I trust everyone's had a chance to read the minutes from the city council work session on November 22nd if so I'd entertain a motion to prove the minutes. **[00:00:40] Councilmember:** Move to approve. **[00:00:41] Councilmember:** Second. **[00:00:42] Mayor Dan Rouser:** I have a motion a second all those in favor say aye. (Aye) any opposed motion carries the minutes are approved item 2B minutes of the regular city council meeting on November 22nd 2022 I'd entertain a motion approve the minutes. **[00:00:55] Councilmember:** Second. **[00:00:56] Mayor Dan Rouser:** I have a motion a second all those in favor of approving the minute say aye. (Aye) any opposed motion carries minutes are approved item three adoption of the agenda are there any changes to the agenda that anyone has seeing none I'd entertain a motion to adopt the agenda. **[00:01:10] Councilmember:** So moved. **[00:01:11] Mayor Dan Rouser:** All right promotion a second all those in favor of adopting the agenda say aye. (Aye) any opposed motion carries we have an agenda item four consent agenda I would entertain a motion to approve the consent agenda. **[00:01:25] Councilmember:** Move to approve. **[00:01:26] Councilmember:** Second. **[00:01:27] Mayor Dan Rouser:** We have a motion a second all those in favor say aye. (Aye) any opposed motion carries the consent agenda is adopted all right item five visitors and presentations we have a resolution accepting the County Road Corridor development initiative County Road E Coalition. Ms. Shimek? **[00:01:45] Tracy Shimek (Housing & Economic Development):** Mayor members of council um I would like to introduce Gretchen Nichols from LISC she was the project manager for the County Road E presentation she's going to give us a brief overview of the process as well as run us through some of the recommendations from the report. Gretchen? **[00:02:00] Gretchen Nichols (LISC):** Thank you so much hello mayor and Council how are you this evening my name again is Gretchen Nichols I'm with the local initiatives support Corporation we are a national community development financial institution and we have had the honor of supporting the city of White Bear Lake and of Gem Lake and Vadnais Heights in a community engagement process along County Road County Road E Corridor to create an action plan. We've got some slides okay um just to just to orient you this project was initiated a while back before COVID actually the intent was to try to gather the three communities together to have a conversation about what it is the community would like to see happen for the corridor and we held off proceeding because we really thought it was the most effective to do a process like this where we could interact in person um and to have the opportunities to really engage people and think through a variety of their thoughts and ideas um wait a minute hang on who's doing the slides that's way too fast [Laughter]. So um we had the opportunity through this work um we set out to co-create a more cohesive and connected Corridor working to create greater impact through collaboration among the three cities and the county so again it was a very robust initiative and took a lot of players to really generate the sense of what was important and necessary um the action plan that we set out to create had both the near near term medium-term and long-term strategies to provide a broader sense of of each of the ways in which the corridor could be supported some of the ideas can't all be done right away so trying to kind of implement things over a period of time um so I'll go to the next one sorry first day there we go. A big focus of this process was on some key opportunity sites we asked each of the cities to identify a small number of sites that they thought was at the ready for redevelopment and so this became a large focus of our conversations in terms of understanding what could those opportunity sites be and try to explore some scenarios and ideas of what might be a good fit for these locations let's just quickly sorry Tracy the sites in White Bear Lake were located at the Bellaire and County Road E intersection they were the five sites that are currently kind of in play um again the goal of the process was to create a Community Driven Vision that transforms County Road E into a place that Fosters a sense of community and connects people to economic opportunities. We worked with a whole project team that helped us really refine the objectives of the process to really gain the perspective of the community and their needs and improving the understanding of what's viable attracting investment to the corridor to maintain and improve its vitality and to improve the quality of life for the County Roadie residents we also acknowledge that the cities have all have recently accomplished a comprehensive plan so we wanted to make sure we were aligning with some of those principles and values. Next. The process involves six workshops one of them was kind of a three-part series we initially brought people together to gather their information about what they wanted to see what were some of the things they were concerned about what are the things they thought would be improvements and so we built a kind of a analysis of the values that people had about the corridor from there we moved to a block exercise which was an Interactive game of sorts where the sites that were opportunity sites identified people would try to build a development scenario on them and then we'd run that scenario through a financial tool to see how far off of a financial process project you had so help them kind of explore variations and try to think through different ways that the sites could be used with different types of uses. The third session or of the series was a developer panel we brought in a panel of experts both in real estate and in place making to try to think offer their reactions to what the community had tried to create and then offer some of their thoughts and ideas about what to consider and how they would approach some of the sites and finally um we worked with the community to adopt a set of recommendations that was composed of all of the information that we had gathered through the process so again we wanted to be sure that we were aligning with all of the governmental partners and Community stakeholders in the along the corridor so we created a project team and this project team was really overseeing the process responding and getting reacting to the information that was coming through and they were kind of the Arbiters of what what was the direction of what we were where we were going was anything kind of out of bounds for some of their interests but they were very important as a an advisor as a director guide for the process in understanding what was possible. We also had some really wonderful conversations about how to work together and and the county was extremely enthusiastic about this collaborative effort they see this as a wonderful platform for them to really dig in more um more comprehensively among this area and really think through kind of how all of the pieces fit together then we had a community Advisory Group this was composed of members that each City recommended to help us think through Outreach how do we get as many people involved in the process how do we make sure that we're getting enough of the different types of voices and interests participating in the process and they were very important as kind of again a foil or a vetting to to try to see are we does this align to a lot of their understandings of community needs and interests I really want to say thank you to the staff they were amazing to work with and helped us like you know we it was just a phenomenal partnership and just really appreciated all that they helped along with the process we bring through this through this methodology a a team technical team that helps with the facilitation we had an expert around land use and planning we had a transportation planning consultant and then just the different players that help us with the block exercise and try to really engage the community in deep ways and then this is just a quick list of the developer panel that we had for the third Workshop. So through the process we're always listening and trying to identify some of the themes that emerged through the conversation it was a very um we had over 100 people participating in multiple sessions so it was a nice you know number of people that were interested in this conversation they really offered a lot of perspectives and and uh versions of kind of what they thought was really important but there was a lot of alignment I think people really had a strong sense of the importance of this Corridor that each Community has kind of a unique personality or character and we didn't want to disturb that but we also wanted to create a more cohesive um theme or thread through the quarter so that it had more of a meaningful experience and and really reflected the players along the corridor and it was an inviting place for people from outside. I'm not going to go into too much detail because there's a lot of information here so I'm really doing a very high level overview for now hopefully you'll have the chance to read more of the report the block exercise again was a really fun way for people to pretend they're a developer and try their hand at creating a scenario for each of these sites it's a really helpful way to um really think about what's what's a what would be a really good way of form formatting a footprint what would be the types of uses how could this area be improved to really add value to the area and and be create more vitality and and interesting places so there was a lot of different ideas it was really fun to see all of the versions that people had and it's a very engaging exercise. For White Bear Lake we had these four Parcels five parcels and they are as you know fairly small so you have a limited kind of set of options about what you can probably fit onto these sites uh how do they fit together how can they complement each other what's the possibilities of some of these opportunities and not that we reach consensus but it was a good exercise for people to think through what would they do on the site what would happen if we tried this here you know and and it was the the way it's facilitated is you're hearing from your neighbors too as to what their thoughts are so it's a really interesting and integrated conversation they also wanted to recognize that the site A that is owned by the by the city is a key site in terms of having more influence about what you know what you think would be helpful for that site and whether it might be um valuable to also try to acquire an adjacent site to make it a larger parcel for something even bigger. So we had a very um a very great panel there was a lot of different expertise on the panel from small residential to multi-family commercial uses industrial and then this creative Place making consultant they really helped kind of talk through the different geographies and sites and opportunities and and reflect some of their kind of knowledge around the markets what kinds of businesses would be likely to be attracted to these area to this area what were some of the things to think about as you're trying to recruit or attract investors into the area they also wanted to give some recommendations around utilizing programming and activities to help create a sense of place and start to create a more of a personality or a set of of themes I guess that would help kind of see how people imagine or think about the corridor in different kinds of ways so it was a it was a really great and also the the participants were bringing a lot of interesting insights about what what they thought was possible it was a really fun exchange between the community and the Developers. So the culmination of all of this work is to summarize what we heard and what we heard was affirmed by the participants at the final workshop so the objective of this process is to get consensus on the final recommendations in other words what we're giving you here is what everybody could live with that may not have been their top priority but they thought this was reflected the conversation that they felt was a positive thing to for purposes of this action plan so the three top objectives were to pursue a corridor improvements that meet multiple objectives including slowing traffic improving safety supporting bike and pedestrian movement building a cohesive and attractive Corridor identity and improving the area to attract high quality housing and business development the second is attracting high quality development to the identified opportunity sites and clearly it's hard to really um anticipate when a site will be moved forward for development but these are the sites that are kind of focused for our purposes um and how how they can enhance the community by providing additional housing and local business options and special places and amenities. So one of the key um uh challenges I guess for the corridor is the divide that Highway 61 creates it's kind of an awkward and ex you know area of transition transaction between the East-West pedestrians bike is kind of a confusing area and so is there some way of transforming this area in in ways that can create more of an asset and a Gateway that enhances a safety connectivity and place making so that's just a challenge that maybe Ramsey County will be helpful with as well but that was just kind of lifted out as one of the largest complications I guess along the corridor. So in regards to the near-term strategies there are they're organized in different categories so one is the first is around fostering a sense of place and purpose um the the ideas that emerged here was the formation of a coalition among the three cities that would take this work and and find ways to keep moving it Forward what how to build bring in the right Partners how to really strategize or develop a work plan around the recommendation so that you can bring as much of the ideas and suggestions to life um so this working group can be also a format for creating programming and events and activities to help enhance the personality of the corridor they could help curate or work with developers to incorporate privately owned public spaces and from the larger project sites that might come through they can help coordinate streetscape elements look for opportunities for family-friendly family friendly programming and events and aligning um it was also recommended that the cities work to align the zoning regulations in each jurisdiction because that alignment needs to be in place to um with the with the comprehensive plan to accomplish these recommendations so it's just a way of um setting out kind of some initial steps and stages offering a format by which they can move forward with some of these ideas. Next the other recommendations are organized within some larger categories around safety this was a big theme throughout the process connectivity and strengthening and convenience and comfortable areas for walking biking and other mobilities around along the corridor and finally at the activation of sites there's a lot of content in here so I'm not going to go through the details but again observing near-term medium-term and long-term strategies were the focus and the format of this report so it's boring to listen to the consultant tell you about this but I we have invited a couple of the people who were involved with this work and took a great leadership role in it also Ryan's here too so I invite him as well but if you would come up and share some of your Reflections about the process and um hi this is Joy Erickson um who was on our Advisory Group and Jan Johnson who was on our pilot project team so thank you guys for offering your thoughts. **[00:15:20] Joy Erickson (Visitor):** All right thanks you guys um I was around in I grew up in Mahtomedi on the other end of the County Road Corridor and and remember when all my friends worked at Ken and Karen spur and the Bellaire Corridor when it was vibrant and Bellaire and County Road E and um I own uh the Erickson real estate Joy Erickson real estate team on County Road E but I lived in Vadnais for 11 years and 10 years in White Bear and have clients all over the place and I just would really love to see this really redeveloped so I was around when we were trying to work on this the last time on County Roadie in Bellaire and the process has just been amazing in my opinion the staff and the um the group that's the Consultants they've just done an excellent job and hearing people out and I just remember kind of the you know protesting that happened before and it was just like a very different experience to hear everybody out and hear what could happen and the developers being able to hear what the community would like and I just feel confident that they're going to be able to figure out something for white bear Vadnais and Gem Lake and I just love the working together that happened during the Coalition and hopefully that'll just be able to continue so that we have a diverse um you know business living Corridor with good place making and I think it was a good attention to detail throughout the whole process so thank you guys for listening. **[00:16:45] Jan Johnson (Visitor):** Good evening mayor and Council it has been an excellent experience just to be part of this because I also as Joy says I've been I've got the business at 2481 County Road E near the Bellaire corner so you know I just have to reference Bellaire and County Roadie and people know what I'm talking about so I I think for me the important thing was the opportunity for community members to be heard and this whole project did an excellent job of pulling people together at the Block exercise 40 to 50 people and there was just chatter chatter chatter in the building now whether their suggestions are going to be realistic but it was the idea that I think they felt a part of it and they felt heard and the goal that I'm hoping is that this just movement continues and that this just doesn't get filed in a drawer and just looked at in five years oh yeah we did all that work so we really do need to have some focus on continuing to move forward with this um you know I think Joy alluded to it you know the first meeting where it was just introduced and that was at Century College it was disappointing for me as a member of this community for 30 some years 40 years um to to hear the distrust or the that negativism and I there just isn't room for that we just have to be moving in a positive direction and there has to be Trust of our of the citizens of White Bear and our business owners with the city and all and I just believe this is just was a great first step in moving things forward so thank you. **[00:18:25] Ryan McKilligan (Element Design Build):** Jim good evening uh Council my name is Ryan McKilligan I'm the lead project manager for a company called Element Design Build we're a small team of developers and Builders here in the Twin Cities and we found out about the lot at 2502 County Road E early on in this in this process to get community involvement in the corridor action plan and just really appreciated the way it was going and the fact that all this community input was getting collected that would maybe help facilitate us basically knowing kind of what the rules were for potentially developing that particular site at 2502 County Roadie so Jason and Tracy and Gretchen's team have been awesome in in facilitating the discussion and helping to sort of basically make the whole process of developing this this uh well that lot in particular but the entire Corridor less opaque more transparent so that we could at least figure out what do we need to do to come alongside the city and um and their team and trying to come up with as much as we possibly can something that really benefits the the community as a whole so um you'll probably be hearing more from us um with with our process and trying to develop a 2502 County Road either but we're really excited about the plans we've got started and appreciate you guys time thank you. **[00:19:50] Tracy Shimek:** um just to finish out the presentation here the next steps for this process after this evening as Gretchen will be presenting to the Vadnais Heights City Council on January 17th and she's working with council member Ben Johnson from Gem Lake to set up a date to present for the Gem Lake City Council as well and just contact information for the project team from the city of White Bear Lake and Gretchen and with that we'll conclude with our staff recommendations the staff recommendations is to accept the report and authorize the resolution as presented in the council meeting packet what staff is requesting in that is authorization to continue authorization to explore the possibility of forming a coalition to continue the progress and the momentum that has been started throughout this process perhaps not all of the specific recommendations may end up being feasible but we think that there are a lot of great possibilities in this report that would be better if we worked together with the project partners on this including Gem Lake and Vadnais Heights and also just the momentum that we built in building those relationships between the three Corridor cities was it was very admirable and it came from a lot of places um I've talked to a number of different people and they they said that it's rare to form a coalition of this extent of of multiple cities that are sharing a corridor to come up with a plan working together so our request this evening is not that you authorize the formation of a coalition but the you authorized us to work with our fellow cities to consider what that might look like any sort of proposal for a coalition would be brought back to council for your input. **[00:21:20] Mayor Dan Rouser:** Thank you and thank you for everyone for who reported on this well I'll just tell you my initial thoughts at first it sounds like you guys have done a lot of great work and a lot of kind of initial Spade work which is kind of half the battle is just getting the ball rolling um I'm open to all kinds of possibilities I think there's not really a lot of disagreement that what is in its current form is far from the highest and best use of all those Parcels of land as it pertains to White Bear's property and the Bellaire and County Road E Corridor what is very high on my list of priorities is the people that immediately live around there what their thoughts are what they have to say and it sounds like you guys have gone out of your way to engage those folks and will continue to do so as as we move the ball down the field so I applaud you on that and I will just reiterate again that's going to be important to me I want to hear from those those residents they might not always like what our plans are but I think it's important that they weigh in and have a say in what's going on right in their backyard and with that I will turn it over the council I'm sure there's comments and questions on this so Council councilmember Jones. **[00:22:25] Councilmember Bill Jones:** Thank you Mr. Mayor so yeah I will applaud the committee to led by Ms. Nichols thank you very much for the job that you did I was only able to attend one but reading the minutes so two things to the council because I won't be here to finish this up my last year is next year I'm done start something now do something simple and we talked about it it could be way-finding signs that coordinate throughout the course something simple something that's inexpensive as an example there's got to be something that says this is the first step to not let this go on a shelf go in a file that that something's coming that's my two cents on this the other two cents to our residents is when you read through this thought well thought out I was trying to say well what else and I think a lot of people have done this what else is around to look at what other what is comparison and it's hard because you want to say White Bear Avenue you want to say other they're just not the same Highway 96 but where I came across was Mr. Lindahl's neck of the woods old stomping grounds where you look at Excelsior and Highway 7 how they flow into each other ironically into West Lake into Minneapolis you look at parts and components and I don't want people to say oh you know you guys know my favorite torches and pitchforks with Highway 7 St. Louis Park but if we had a little bit of the flavor and you look along those corridors and chunks pieces that's what I see because I think the community needs to know that we want to attract top level developers just like the report says but also we want to slow the traffic down we want to do traffic coming we want walkability we want Mobility well guess what you can't have everything so that's the other piece is going forward we're not going to get everything Community somebody's not going to like something and traffic by the way is a good thing because without it you're not going to have anybody interested in moving in or redeveloping so that's my two cents thank you Mr. Mayor. **[00:24:20] Councilmember Kevin Walsh:** Thank you I just have a little technical question I've always thought of the County Road E in Bellaire has four Parcels now there's five in this proposal can someone just I can't find it in the report I'm sure it's in your summer our description of C the the corners could you explain what what does that mean is it's split now we've always talked about it as four or now it's well it's four corners yeah but the southwest corner has got two parties so what's what am I looking at in this overhead map of what's there now on parcel C anyway the new ice cream shop coffee shop is at D right so then behind it is C southwest corner just below that is currently used being used as a manufacturing slash storage slash land distribution well it's got some other stuff too but yes okay I'll drive by. **[00:25:05] Jason Lindahl (Community Development Director):** Mayor members of the council sorry just the map went out to you on the screen here now quickly there's a there's a distinct parcel at every corner but then as councilman Edberg mentioned there's actually a second parcel that's part of the discussion um that it is directly south of the corner parcel in the South and West corner so that makes up the one two three four five Parcels that are part of this uh the section that was talked about for County for White Bear Lake. **[00:25:35] Councilmember Kevin Walsh:** Thanks and just just for just discussion wise just reaction wise I'm trying to imagine the corridor concept and it's it's you're talking about Highway 61 as a break point which which I guess it is but really there's that there's a stretch of homes that sort of they're not going to do anything with that they're going to be homes you know along you know as we move into White Bear from from Highway 61 into high school or the gonna be the middle school but but uh I mean did you guys talk a lot I mean was that come up in terms of we're going to try and build an identity to a corridor you've got you know opportunity here and you've got opportunity here and you got a couple spots along the way but then there's this kind of stretch of homes so is it how was that a discussion I mean I guess that's my reaction it's like how do we build a corridor there I don't know what the solution is but I just got that's an observation I'll just throw out there. **[00:26:30] Tracy Shimek:** As an observation mayor members of console I that was a topic of conversation I believe that's where some of the interest and traffic calming measures comes from is developing a place where people feel safe to cross the street stay safe for the kids to cross the street if they're going to the middle school I think accomplishing an identity over a corridor that that is as lengthy as that is certainly a marketing challenge one that I think that we could handle and it would be done in different flavors for different places certainly the Vadnais Heights area where where there's Target and Walmart and it's much more retail has a different flavor than um County Road E and White Bear Avenue has a different flavor than County Roadie and Bellaire and so I that is part of what merits further discussion is is how do you accomplish a sense of identity how do you create a corridor that is a place where people want to go and be and not just drive through was one of the things that was mentioned one of the the sentiments that was mentioned was people were looking for places to be and with the recognition that this is a unique Corridor in that it transitions from residential to retail to residential to commercial to residential to Industrial along numerous portions. **[00:27:50] Jason Lindahl:** and mayor members of the council I think Tracy gave a great kind of overall kind of corridor a response to your question I would just add maybe quickly even more specifically to White Bear Lake is when projects come through I think your question is really focusing on how do we provide context sensitive here Redevelopment opportunities how do we make sure the new things that coming in are relating well and fitting in the context of the neighborhood and I can tell you that staff in general is going to be looking very closely at our zoning standards and and and projects that come through to hear that feedback from the community and look for ways to make sure that projects come forward to be part of and fit into their surrounding neighborhoods and not just be a new thing in that in in White Bear Lake. **[00:28:40] Councilmember Steven Edberg:** Thank you Mr. Mayor so I'd like to begin by saying that I really appreciated the process that was used I attended all sessions I found that the process was well organized meetings were engaging welcoming that folks genuinely had an opportunity to participate actively yes we listened to some we talked among ourselves we listened some more we talked somewhere it was it was just a good overall process folks pretty much hung in for all of the sessions and I think that everything that both Tracy and Ms. Nichols have spoken about in terms of the engagement I think was successful so I think we did receive a broad-based set of perspectives from folks living in all three communities um could it have been a thousand I suppose maybe could have been 500 we had we had over a hundred and I think that was just totally fine um and good good engagement and so that was the product of really good Outreach so thanks to the to the team and everybody in the planning process it was it was a well done project second thing I'd like to note is that um I sensed really good sense of collaboration among the three communities that's not always a common thing maybe we think that that happens naturally and easily Ms. Erickson I'm not quite sure what we would have done had we had to engage with Mahtomedi we might have a different conversation there um I'm not bringing them in either um but we had but the staff that participated really did a good job of uh of interacting all were uh active in presentation or in in engagement and delivery uh and you could sense that they were on a similar page so even though they had different development needs different uh scale of opportunities etc etc um uh the the the synergy was genuinely a good thing and um I for no other reason um but that to continue the synergy I think we want we want to adopt the uh the resolution because it continues forward with engagement with our neighbors in a way that's useful to us and useful to the uh to the corridor so that's my second thing I think the third thing that I'd like to mention is that okay so we got multiple next possible steps um like lots of them you've you've seen two or three pages worth of relatively small type um grouped in the near Mid and long term um and I think a part of a part of our challenge as figuring out which which is first what's the resource what are the priorities and of those that we might want which ones add to synergy so that one plus one might give us two and a half or three God forbid four um so I think along those lines I'm going to actually I'm going to be obnoxious and push our staff all right fine if we say we're going to give you the opportunity to keep talking that's good what in your professional opinions where would you start putting chips on the table what are some of those initiatives short medium or long or topic areas that you say hey at least for White Bear Lake recognizing we have to talk with our neighbors where are those places that we want to invest some good time and energy um so I'm I'm totally fine and saying yes go and talk but I actually am interested in getting to pass that into the okay what can we do in in aligned way even do you have any ideas and if I promise we don't hold you to them if we said you got an opportunity what are those things that speak out to you um mayor members of the council maybe I should just as a point of clarification would you like us to respond as we go or do you want to take questions and then kind of respond at the end? **[00:32:30] Mayor Dan Rouser:** We can take questions as we go. **[00:32:31] Tracy Shimek:** Do you want to start? Mayor members of council I think my top two priorities um you know given free reign um would be working on The Branding and establishing an identity working on a marketing you know working together with a coalition to come up with a marketing campaign something similar to what Main Street does for downtown I think that marketing having up to tourism marketing background I think that that goes a long way in creating an economic vitality and attracting people to the corridor it also shows that we're invested in the corridor to anybody who wants to come in and invest in the corridor with their own private funds secondly I do think it's time to explore what we do with parcel A and um I I think that there's opportunity there for us to help bring some energy to that intersection Beanery certainly already brought some energy but I think that needs to continue and so what we do with parcel A I think becomes an important question and topic we should consider um bringing to the forefront sooner than later thank you. **[00:33:45] Jason Lindahl:** Mayor members of the council I would pretty much echo Tracy's comments I I think obviously the the question before you tonight is authorizing staff to talk about a coalition I think trying to form some structure for how that group who's in that group and how it could operate is very important a very important foundational step to anything um but then I would also agree that the the probably the first step in the in the discussion amongst that Coalition is how do we form an identity for this Corridor given the fact that it's spanning three communities and you know as councilmember Walsh brought up tonight very different land uses and very different settings throughout those communities so I would say that that is really the foundational step the first couple foundational steps that are probably the most important and certainly we would be coming back to the council to consult on how those things would impact specifically White Bear Lake as we go forward. **[00:34:55] Councilmember Steven Edberg:** Councilmember Edberg if I might continue but if you want to feel please do that so I can I'll hold my so I got questions two others and then I'll so thank you for that that was unstaged and and unrehearsed so I appreciate uh you handled I agree it makes sense to me one other area that I would hold up that was news to me and that I spent a little time thinking about is the whole issue of transportation so and and particularly as it pertains to how County Road E is laid out as its name implies it is a county road it's not under our explicit or sole jurisdiction we share jurisdiction with a whole bunch of other places and yet we have at least three different kinds of Road segments a number of lanes etc etc um in my portion of County Roadie I consistently receive concerns about the walkability and the safety of Crossing County Roadie and the absence of some of the opportunities for moving north to south or back and forth we addressed a piece of that a few years ago when I was early on in the council I remember Mr. Jones advocated for a pedestrian is that a dentist Mr. Jones and we ended up inserting a safe a safe Crossing space that I think has served well numerous times the crossing at Cranbrook or between Cranbrook and Abba has has come up as well and so um I would add this whole issue of how do we work together with our public works with the uh with the county with others on street and Road improvements alignment traffic calming etc etc to make this a more accessible and a sense of it being safer and I think that for me that is up in my upper level but I'm happy to let the having said that I'm happy to let the professionals do their thing and come back with with some assessment but we need I think to be thinking very intentionally about how people move along that corridor. In part that takes me to my last bucket so this was a great experience and exercise in community engagement about what the community might see as being acceptable options that's going to come however with some tensions because the community unless parcel A the city-owned property on northeast corner unless the city does something the community isn't going to develop anything the community will live with something that a developer brings to any of those sites along the corridor and so my first point is there's going to be tensions along around what is a developer's vision versus what is the community's vision and we should not assume that the two are going to nicely neatly overlap um I don't think that that's the realistic way that the world works most days maybe maybe once a while but anyway so be aware of tension I think there's a second issue that popped up in that conversation that's the tension between business settings and housing settings those were the two primary kind of potential uses for the parcels that were identified um there was substantial Community interest in in some of the one or more of those Corners being places of small business oh wouldn't it be great if all right yes it would be great if however those businesses have to be vital and viable and not all of the folks that uh all not all of the ideas that were articulated as business possibilities struck me as being accessibly viable that didn't take into consideration other alternatives already available that's business world that's competition so how do we think about those viable options that complement or are reasonable competitors for space in the corridor and that takes me to my last little sub point I actually am conflicted I'm not sure so Ms. Shimek you talked about a place where folks want to be Mr. Jones did as well so corner there that draws a lot more activity that's one option I think a second option is does the community simply want a quiet place that does not draw traffic but that is quite unblighted so that's a very different vision for what that corner might look like does it need to be a destination ought it be just quiet and unblighted all right I don't know we've got lots more time for conversation on that but we got lots of good input and I think there's some tangible and meaty things that we could what could do and I think we should turn our staff loose to pursuit of us. **[00:39:55] Mayor Dan Rouser:** Yeah so here's my thought on this it seems to me that the trick with this Corridor is you got four corners that there's not a lot going on and it's a question of who wants to go first and be the one to build something and then if it's a success then suddenly the other property values go up and people want to build it I don't have claimed to have the answer for that it sounds like some kind of marketing strategy where you're packaging it is more than one and the city maybe can play that role um or we can sell people on the broader the broader picture than just one um the the the thing that I guess for lack of a better term troubles me is as councilmember Walsh alluded to a corridor it's I mean when I think of a corridor I think of a lot of businesses in a row this is in either direction it's upset as we've talked about by housing and industrial and different things so it's not going to be a mile stretch of just all these different businesses so um so I don't know I don't know what the end game is councilmember Edberg mentioned maybe it's just something that's a little bit more sleepy but not blighted it doesn't have to be this huge development I'm kind of open to whatever because it's pretty grim there right now so you know as I said during my campaign and as I've said at the council many times I'm not a big fan of dense housing but at the end of the day if that's what the people in the neighborhood are going to support and they think it's a good idea then I'm not going to stand their way that's my biggest concern is the people that are around that area they move there and it's been relatively quiet it's not this big attraction which isn't to say that that's a bad thing but that's the the biggest concern that I have is the people that drive through there every day and their their kids play around that area they walk by there they're driving by so again I'll reiterate what I said that's the number one priority so as we continue to go forward let's keep engaging the people in the community the business at this process right now resolution which is basically talking to other suburbs other adjacent cities that have other areas that they want to develop I don't see any harm in that I don't know what the end solution is but let's continue to talk if this is sort of a you go first and then it'll attract other people then it makes sense to be part of a kind of a cohesive strategy I I don't know if some of those other Parcels are sufficiently close to this that that actually does attract it but I'll keep an open mind with that so I see no reason not to at least support this resolution and and keep the ball moving forward let's continue to have conversations and brainstorm ideas engage the the people in the community and see what comes of it anyone else on the council have questions or comments if not we've got a resolution before us I'd entertain a motion to approve the resolution. **[00:43:00] Councilmember:** So moved. **[00:43:01] Councilmember:** Second. **[00:43:02] Mayor Dan Rouser:** I have a motion a second any further discussion seeing none all those in favor say aye. (Aye) any opposed the motion passes and the resolution is adopted. **[00:43:10] Jason Lindahl:** Mayor if I may just quickly again to thank everyone who worked on this in Gretchen but mostly um and everyone who showed up and councilmember Edberg with our staff Tracy put a lot of work into this over many years um and has done a wonderful job on it so thank you Tracy for your work thank you. **[00:43:30] Mayor Dan Rouser:** All right let's jump into item 6A in the 2023 final budget tax levy and truth and taxation here. Ms. Crawford? **[00:43:40] Lindy Crawford (City Manager):** Thank you mayor members of the council if I can flip slides here quickly. Okay so just uh to kick off the presentation I wanted to start with an overview of the budget timeline and the work that we've done this year um in on the 2023 budget so on the slides the dates that are in bold are steps in the process this that the city council has been involved in so far so every January through February staff reviews and updates the capital Improvement plan or as I'll say from now on the CIP and then the finance director and I review that in March the finance director updates the financial management plan and analyzes the year-to-date results for the prior year. On April 19th we did have a work session with the city council to discuss the CIP financial management plan and any departments meaning funds that needed additional discussion based on prior year year results from June through August department heads prepare their budgets and submit it for review by myself and the finance director Finance director and I complete the preliminary budget for tax supported funds and then August 16th the city council had another work session to discuss tax levy recommendations to support the general fund and Debt Service funds. August through September the finance director and myself finalized the preliminary budget and then September 13th the city council adopted the preliminary Levy and established the truth and taxation hearing date and September through October the finance director and I complete the 2023 preliminary budgets and special Revenue funds Enterprise funds and set a and prepare a draft fee schedule. On October 18th the work session was held again with the city council to discuss the budgets for those funds and the fee schedule the November 21st on November 21st the budget document was distributed to the city council to the mayor and city council for final review which leads us to tonight where we will have our truth and taxation hearing the city council will adopt the tax levy the revised 2022 budget the 2023 budget and the 2023 fee schedule so what I'm getting at is what we're talking about tonight is a year-long process that gets us to here and we'll start all over next year for 2024. So we'll hold the truth and taxation hearing tonight or the TNT hearing and I just wanted to share the purpose of that purpose of the hearing we're required by Statute to hold that it's to provide a summary of the general fund budget to explain property tax implications of the budget and allow for citizen comments other areas of public engagement prior to the truth and taxation hearing can all be found on our website or on our social media site sites so we have public meetings obviously staff is always available for questions and comments we have newsletters that go out public notices you can sign up for email subscriptions and then our social media sites so the city followed specific budget commitments when creating the 2023 budget and so I just wanted to go over go over those so they include supporting a public safety model that is oriented to being proactive preventative and prepared while meeting Staffing support and facility needs gradually eliminate reliance on LGA local government aid as the state's distribution formula reduces the city's annual amount received maintain a 10-year CIP to ensure funding is available for future projects and capital replacements maintain a 10-year financial management plan and maintain a fund balance that is not less than 35 percent of the subsequent years budgeted operating expenditures. So I'm going to get into the 2023 budget the general fund budget and so significant Revenue changes and again the general fund budget expenditures and revenues are in the packet the city council did receive the entire budget in November but significant Revenue changes for next year are unavoidable decrease in building permit revenues interest revenues that are not budgeted due to the uncertainty in the market transfer from the construction front fund to decrease the support of the engineering operations per previous Council direction unavoidable reduction of the city's fiscal disparities contribution to the pool by 2.7 percent and the distribution by 7.6 percent in an unavoidable decrease of approximately five hundred six thousand dollars of LGA again as previously stated that the city will be planning for annual decreases of approximately 250 000 in the next few years until that amount received is zero. Let me get into significant expenditure changes we have a salary adjustments per the pay plan which was adopted by the city council in September an unavoidable increase in utilities and fuel costs just like everybody else is feeling an increase in health insurance benefits addition of two full-time firefighter and firefighters paramedics which is the plan we've been following for the last few years removal of two positions previously funded one in finance and one in engineering replacement of playground equipment sand in three different parks improve Mental Health Services for Public Safety employees which was adopted by the city council in September an increase in miscellaneous technology costs and contract cleaning services. When we look at our 2023 CIP it does not have an effect on the tax levy but I do just like to call that out so what 2023 purchases will be we will have four police squads one Parks vehicle and one building department vehicle police squad equipment and body worn cameras routine technology upgrades and or replacements and fire rescue boat. So when we get to the tax levy so this year's proposed general fund tax levy reflects a 12.48 percent or just over 1 million dollar increase for operations and 2.45 for the street Improvement Debt Service for the 2022 Recon Street reconstruction project staff is certainly grateful as City councils made the decision to move forward on the much needed Public Safety facility to fund that project we will be issuing debt to cover most of those expenditures which will add 8.28 percent or 669 thousand dollar increase to the debt service levy in 2023 so therefore this year's total tax levy reflects a 23.21 percent or one million eight hundred seventy five thousand dollar increase over the previous year's levy we will be using unrestricted Surplus cash from the general fund balance and the amount of six hundred seventy thousand dollars twenty six hundred seventy twenty six hundred seventy twenty one dollars to offset the tax levy increase meaning that that tax levy could be increased further but we are budgeting to use some fund balance. The tax capacity rate related to this Levy is 24.448 percent the state auditor recommends that cities keep a minimum of five months of operating costs for 42 percent on hand and accessible to cover unanticipated costs the fund balance projected for December 31 2022 covers 45 percent of the 2023 expenditures which meets the recommended recommendation and complies with Council policy requiring the fund balance to be again not below 35 percent of expenditures anticipated for the following year. So where does your tax dollar go in White Bear Lake so each tax dollar is divided between several organizations for so for every one dollar the city of White Bear Lake receives 18 cents of that dollar the school district receives 39 cents the county receives 36 cents and other taxing agencies such as Met Council and mosquito control district etc receives seven cents so when we break that down even further on the following slide of that 18 cents rather of that dollar let's break it down to the city's budget so where do your city property taxes go so the median home value for taxes payable in 2023 is 306 thousand one hundred dollars that's a 17.6 percent increase from the previous year and that home values are set by the by the county auditor not by the city so that's a significant increase in itself. In 2023 a median home value would pay 724.64 for the year in city taxes so for that price that property owner receives an exceptional quality of life in White Bear Lake and receives 24/7 police and fire response street maintenance sweeping lighting snow plowing parks access and recreation activities election activities access to City publications and access to elected and elected officials and City staff. The table on the screen before you is a comparison of Revenue collection per capita with comparable cities and we showed this in September as well these are preliminary levies they may not all have been adopted at this point so I do want to call that out but White Bear Lake has a larger population than some of those cities and is at the bottom of the list so per capita that's 450 dollars further this chart shows five years of Levy history for comparable cities including the preliminary levy increases for 2023 so there we have 2019 through 2023 White Bear Lake is circled on that table we remain right at the bottom with where we have historically been with comparable cities with with that proposed Levy increase so again we're proposing the lowest levy increase of these cities for 2023 and if you follow that line across I know it's difficult to see but the White Bear Lake 2023 levy is is the is really relatively the same as New Brighton's 2020 levy. When we talk about the 2022 revised budget so now shifting gears to this current year anticipated revenues exceed the adopted budget estimates by 598,278 dollars and activities providing additional revenues or franchise fees you know non-business permit fees fire relief aid and Park rental fees also expenditures in the revised budget reflect a 341,202 dollar increase in budget expenditures after factoring out 323,485 transfer to the municipal building fund and those changes come from the vehicle and equipment fuel natural gas embedded Mental Health Services fire relief aid which is an amount equal to the payment received from the state electric costs for contracted street lighting through Xcel Energy. Just before before the mayor opens the public hearing tonight the final two slides here of the presentation include several property tax assistance programs provided by the state and the county I know it's difficult to read and we can share these with anyone you may want them but all these programs listed are generally available every year and links and phone numbers are provided if anyone wants to learn more about property tax assistance you can just show the next slide too thank you staff does recommend that the city council hold the truth and taxation hearing and then subsequently adopt the attached resolutions as presented these these resolutions are consistent with what you have adopted in previous budget years and with that I can stand for questions or I can wait if you want to do the public hearing first thank you. **[00:57:30] Mayor Dan Rouser:** Thank you Ms. Crawford at this time in being a public hearing I will open it up for the truth in taxation hearing I have a list in front of me with two names on it and both were speakers from the previous item on our agenda regarding the County Road E Corridor so I don't have any names on my list but this is your opportunity if you'd like to speak to this issue and the budget please step up state your name and your address and you can be heard. Seeing none I will close the truth in taxation hearing bring it back to the council I have a few comments and I'm not going to say anything that already hasn't already been said in past Council meetings for those that are in the audience or listening at home this is not something that came out of thin air this is something that's been we've been working on for months as Ms. Crawford alluded to and Council has spent hours on this going back and forth and winnowing it down to what we think is an acceptable budget. I want to thank Ms. Crawford for the breakdown of what your property taxes go towards as a percentage of what goes towards the City versus the county with the school district because I think that frames the issue pretty nicely when you you know own a home and you say geez my taxes are 3,500 bucks or four thousand dollars for the year you go geez what's the city spending all that money on and then you then you realize oh the city gets a small fraction of that and with that small fraction they're able to provide incredible services like police and fire and ambulance patch the roads and salt the roads and plow and have nice parks and all that good stuff that we've come to enjoy and appreciate in White Bear. I like seeing us at or near the bottom and we are at the bottom the way I look at that is someone who ran a campaign on let's hold the line on taxes and be exceptionally frugal I look at that and I say that's good however when you're at the bottom long enough at some point you become too frugal and city services in the city starts to deteriorate I don't think we're there but I think we're at kind of coming up on that precipice where we do need to put our money's money where our mouth is and make sure that we're we're taxing appropriately so that we can continue to provide these these essential services long into the future. One big thing that accounts for that increase is the public safety building which was started before my tenure on the council and I when learning about it and being educated on it fully support and this council did that is a huge expenditure that is not something that the city does every year or every 10 years or every couple of decades this is a 50 to 70 year project that was long overdue and it needed to happen so when you see 23 percent that kind of makes your eyes water but when you break it down and put it into context there there are improvements that were long overdue the public safety building being one. The other big thing is and this is this is something that members of the council really has to rely on staff for their judgment and expertise when the city manager and the chief of police and the fire chief tells us we're not competitive with our salaries and our compensation packages and we're losing the best people to other cities it's our job to take note of that and say well if we want the best police officers if we want the best firefighters we need to be competitive and it was told to us that we're not being competitive and hence we had a compensate class and compensation study that brings us more in line with market rate we are by no means making this adjustment and becoming the best paid City in the Metro but we're at least falling in the middle of the pack so that we're competitive and that's an important and important factor to look at. The other thing is local government aid which being a new mayor this being my first year literally understanding that it became clear to me that local government aid is something that cities get hooked on and it's kind of a it's kind of a downward spiral you get trapped in this system of relying on local government aid and then the better you do the more your local government aid goes down so I for one can't wait until this phases out over the next couple years and I never want to get hooked on it again because it's relying on something that is sort of ephemeral it seems artificial so that was a big factor in why we needed to increase the tax levy because we simply have less money and that will continue for the next year or two until that phases out to zero and then it'll be incumbent upon us to say all right we have to live within our means we're not going to get that let's budget accordingly so that's that's something I think is is worth noting. So having said all that I support our budget I support our tax levy I think as I said a couple City Council meetings ago there is no marble fountain that the city can cut we run a lean budget a tight budget if there were a marble fountain or some wishlist thing that we could cut I'd be the first to say guys we got to cut that but there just isn't this is the cost of providing essential city services that we've come to know and expect in White Bear so I support this budget I support the tax levy and with that I will open it up to council for their comments discussions and questions councilmember Jones. **[01:03:55] Councilmember Bill Jones:** thank you Mr. Mayor I agree with everything you said um but I do again I want to thank city manager Crawford and finance manager kinsvatter thank you as well as the entire staff for always sharpening the pencils um but there's three things that I see going on one of which is the lack of funding Mr. Edberg Steve to a certain I mean with with the LGA and that's what triggered me off the LGA going away which I don't disagree it's a weird thing it should go away but that's a billion and a half dollars we've seen two million go away in 12 years from the interest rates how have we managed to do this and I look at the pie chart and see that 18 cents and what's funny is that 10 years ago I think it was 16 cents you know it it's been always somewhere around there so how much has our property taxes per percentage right gone up is always well we're still that piece of the pie but the percentage overall has gone up because we've experienced you know the taxpayers our residents who experience a good thing rapid escalation of property unheard of escalation of property values we benefit from that so do they until you're buying a house after you sell the house that's always fun but the public safety aspect and what we've had to done what's changed over the years and it is Public Safety when you start off with 3,500 is for if I start off as 15 years ago 3,500 runs now we're up to almost 5,000. man I mean how do we do that and our age our community is aging in place that's a good thing people want to stay here that's a good thing um maybe not for everybody my mother closed circuit yeah [Laughter]. But really is and to be able to continue that we're working on the Capital Improvements the road reconstruction the mill and overlay and maintenance these are big huge dollar chunks and we've been able to maintain it so that's about as much as I want to reverberate what you've already said and the last thing is we still sit well well below that per capita rate now I wonder you know I know Mr. Walsh you want to run out and say well I want to go double it because we can still be less than that that's not funny to you because you know well I'm just looking at that chart that pie chart can we bring that back up or not the pie chart the graph comparing the cities that one I mean that just dumbfounds me that we're having the increase that we're having and that that we're still comparing along that level what is it we're not not delivering what is it that we're not getting and continue to support our staff we need to continue to put our staff it's like what is our job our job I think overall is managing our residents largest financial asset which is your home for most of us we want that to maintain value that's our job in a nutshell it really is make our community nice that makes your home nice makes it more valuable so this is a huge one that's why I'm going on and on about this this is massive and I recognize that but it is needed it is wanted not wanted it is needed we need to do this thank you Mr. Mayor. **[01:07:30] Councilmember Kevin Walsh:** Well thank you Mr. Mayor just to pick up where councilman Jones left off the list of cities there they are doing things we are not doing and and so um I I'm I'm happy about that and I'm happy he's my stronger but but I'm satisfied with that it says what the level service were provided we're sticking to the basics a lot of those other cities you could you could do some quick googly and figure out what's going on in those cities they have libraries they have Economic Development corporations they have zoos maybe not zoos on this list but some some across the state that get a lot of local government aid have zoos and airports and you know Ms. Crawford you at an airport I think the last City you're at right? **[01:08:20] Lindy Crawford:** If I may this is only tax levy supported these are this is not a total... **[01:08:25] Councilmember Kevin Walsh:** I understand but that all gets into what what cities are doing that's that's beyond you know that's that's funded so so that's a good thing that's I'm I'm trying to be positive a couple couple of questions is there any cares act money left in here I mean we talked about using some of the carry forward or some of the cash that we have to offset the tax levy increase which I'm in favor of I'm happy we're doing that is that just just for for accountability or transparency is there any remnants of cares act money in the in the bank that we're kind of using today? **[01:09:10] Lindy Crawford:** Mr. Mayor members of the council there is cares money that is it's been budgeted for and that's laid out in the budget for it so there were expenditures that we made in 2022 and then we have some planned for 2023 and 2024. um in 2023 the um that's mostly one-time purchase when we had talked about using that cares money we didn't want to apply it to a lot of um I shouldn't say we didn't the council had not wanted to apply it to ongoing expenditures so the really focused on one-time expenditures there were some assistance that was helping some funds but there are some one-time expenditures so that you didn't create a program that had ongoing expenditures once the money right had run out but they were still seeing some remnants... **[01:09:55] Councilmember Kevin Walsh:** I just just for transparency sake we're still seeing some remnants of that uh quite a bit of funding we got from the federal government essentially through the state from the cares act correct. I have a a small question but it's but I didn't notice it until now and we're going to do several resolutions tonight so i mean if you'll indulge me just on uh the resolution on um volunteer and employee recognition uh there's something I never I didn't notice this before but so employee recognition there's two things going on maybe they're related no more annual banquet for firefighters that was 3,500 dollars um and then Employee Appreciation lunch went from one thousand to eight thousand is it is it simple math we're going to do everybody together and that kind of gets in there and then the whole thing's going up a little bit is that the answer? **[01:10:45] Lindy Crawford:** Yes that is exactly the answer. **[01:10:47] Councilmember Kevin Walsh:** Okay thanks just just noticed that and then just one um one one I'll call it a talking point I think it's a talking point that we we're using tonight from significant Revenue changes um this one I don't I don't understand I don't think it fits let's say you know do the Sesame Street one of these things doesn't belong and that's the unavoidable decrease in permit revenues I just am I I'm trying to understand how that how that would be a an unpredictable I mean we knew this the school went out for a levy they they got of you know hundreds of millions of dollars in new construction going on we knew that would be a an increase but very temporarily and then it would go back so I don't see that belonging on this list of like oh we're we're missing out our revenue is down well of course our revenue is down that was a huge project but it came and went we knew it was going to come and go obviously we there's a lot of work so we got the revenue to handle the work there should be less work obviously with that project gone so that I don't know if that belongs on the list of like unavoidable decrease to permit revenues that's just a little this little thing that that I noticed I'll just leave it at that I mean I don't think you know I get the other ones the LGA the and then obviously the expenditures everyone's talked about them already um um you know we're supporting these things as we go so it's hard not to vote yesterday because this today is the vote that funds the things that we've been kind of supporting especially the the capital investment in the in the public safety building so that's all I have thanks. **[01:12:40] Councilmember Steven Edberg:** Thank you Mr. Mayor so member Walsh I think there's a difference between unavoidable and unpredictable you were complaining about it being not predictable the unavoidable is it's the fact of life the projects are done so I think there's some nomenclature that actually does make sense in that context and we can leave it at that. My observation looking at the multi-city chart all of the decisions in every one of those other communities were made in exactly the same way that our community makes decisions citizens elect peers to represent their interests to make decisions about the things that are important in those communities as it pertains to what they support with their local levels their decisions are just as legitimate as ours for those communities unless we want to start saying our process is the only process that's legitimate in Golden Valley or wherever else and I don't think any of us want to do that so my observation would be every Community has its own culture it has its own sense of priorities it reflects those through a democratic process there are positives and there are negatives to every one of them like the mayor I too say that um that being the lowest and taking too much pride in being the lowest is also a trap that there that that mindset prevents communities sometimes from thinking wisely from thinking long term and sometimes not so every one of those represents what's unique and good and important and maybe unavoidable maybe unpredictable in those communities I think we would be wise to spend some time thinking about what is our culture what does it what does a mentality of low what are the positives and what are the not so positives of that and to reflect on that over time I'll I will support the resolution this evening and I think the overall thrust of what we're doing seems to be in tune with this community. **[01:14:50] Councilmember Heidi Hughes:** Mayor as a new council member it's really exciting to come here and vote on a 23 percent tax increase especially when everybody's getting their home property values reassessed it's really exciting but as I look at kind of the layout I you know I don't do a lot of City budgets this is my first one and so when I look at it I kind of look at it a little bit differently we've got a 12 percent increase here for our operations um of the 23 12 percent is going to be for operations and eight percent is going to be for a much needed Public Safety project and I kind of hope people go and check it out um I've been asked a couple of times why are we even doing it and um you know so we can get a new fire truck so we can get people who want to do the job so we can fight fires I don't want to give the impression that we can't do any of these things but um I think when I call 911 I expect someone to respond adequately and in order to continue providing great service that's what this building is about it's about protecting our staff it's also about protecting the infrastructure we're buying we've got cop cars idling on the road and um I just think that's a it's a great project but so almost half of this increase is due to a singular building of the remaining half a bunch of it is because we're not going to get funds from the state anymore which isn't something we can do anything about and then the remaining half ends up being about a six percent increase across the line and so I look at it myself and I realize nobody here is going to look at it like that I look at this as a six percent increase then because I don't think I don't think the public building counts it clearly does but when I look at just the increase overall that's what we're doing and um a huge chunk with that is a couple of new firefighters and a salary increase to staff that hasn't happened for five years it's time we completed a class and comp study was 1988 okay so it's been a long time and I think it's hard to ask people to come do a job where they don't get paid adequately so when people who haven't asked me ask me about what this increase is it's very easy for me to say a good chunk of it's a building and I can't wait for you to go tour it another chunk of it is is money we're losing from the state that we can't do anything about and while I agree with your sentiment about it if they wanted to keep sending us money I'd take it in fact if we could figure out another way to go back and ask them for some there's a 17.6 billion dollar surplus and they're probably going to increase and if we could have 16 million of that I'm all for it so I I get your sentiment like it's hard to Budget on this kind of stuff but I'd still like to ask for it because that's also all of our taxpayer dollars and and so then the rest of it you know while there are some other things in there ends up being salary increases much needed salary increase that I think are easy to defend so it really kind of inches to be sitting here talking about this huge tax increase but um you know when you talk about the specific stuff it's very it's very easy and so that's why I'll be supporting it. **[01:18:15] Mayor Dan Rouser:** A couple follow-up comments the LGA let me let me clarify a little bit because you're right if the state wants to send us money we'll take it they're dysfunctional enough they've got a 17 billion dollar surplus let's take some of it I look at the LGA as if it shows up you don't rely on it for operating expenses you don't budget for it you use it as a okay we got a million bucks what somewhere what's where's the place we need to spend a million dollars that does never occur in costs or do we put it in the bank to save for a building that we know we're gonna have to buy but when you rely on it as part of your operating expenses then you are beholden to it use a simple analogy you're a salesman that has a base salary and then once a year you get a commission well you shouldn't rely on your commission to make your mortgage payment you live off of your base salary and then if you get your commission great but that's not what you rely on month in and month out to run your budget so so if we treat it like a windfall which I think we should if and when it comes back then fine we'll take it but I think the city has relied on it as just bankable funding and then when it goes away it puts us all in a real pickle. And then to councilmember Edberg yeah I understand your point with this comparison the reason I like this comparison and I understand where you're coming from that every city's got a little bit different priorities they're different but I look at it as this is helpful to me because these are comparable cities in population in geographic scope and then I look at this and I say well geez I'll put our cops up against any one of those cities so I'll put our firefighters up against any one of those cities or maybe not our city manager but we've got some work to do there public works paramedics go down the line right so if if our essential services are every bit as good then this means we're simply doing it better than other cities and I don't mean to disparage any other cities I just don't work for any of those so that means we're doing it better so if City staff and the Chiefs are telling me in order for us to continue to do it well yeah we gotta we gotta up our tax levy and I'll buy the buy it's still way less and we're doing it way more efficient than all of our comparable cities it means we're doing our jobs so it gives some context to a 23 percent increase if we were on the other end it'd be a whole different story I'd say boy there's got to be some waste in the budget we have to cut but by definition statistically speaking this city has been doing it well and even with a pretty significant action increase if we're still the lowest we're continuing to do it pretty well so to me what is the White Bear way the White Bear ways to do things pretty darn frugal right but still provide essential city services and and that's what we're continuing to do so having said all that unless there's other comments councilmember Edberg I figured that would prompt a rebuttal from you so please go. **[01:21:40] Councilmember Steven Edberg:** Actually I don't want to rebut I want to reinforce though um there's a reason why our salaries are way below average there's a reason why it took us 70 years to get a new building it's a culture of frugality that can be taken to extremes and we are now coming to a reckoning of where that part of our culture takes us it's a healthy conversation that we're having and I'm totally fine with that but it's a culture of there's never a time to spend money okay that is not a useful framing for what we need so I'm I'm agreeing with you in the sense of and I'm just pointing out this is where the downside of that culture takes us the upside of that is that it does bring about efficiency a high commitment to quality service there are many many things that our staff does remarkably well I'll leave with just one other factoid so on that sample home that Ms. Crawford shared with us I'm going to round off the numbers because I can do them in my head so about 700 bucks a year in city taxes on that home all right about 50 percent our Public Safety expenditures police and fire that means about 350 360 bucks a year is spent on public services or a citizen in a home in this community spends a buck a day to have the privilege of 24/7 police and fire and we operate that really well our our both our police and fire departments are highly respected for a buck a day a house that's pretty damn good anyway a factoid thank you. **[01:23:30] Mayor Dan Rouser:** All right any other comments if not I've got about five resolutions here that we got to walk through so I will start with the first resolution resolution adopting the 2023 budget and revising the 2022 budget do I have a motion to approve that. **[01:23:45] Councilmember:** So moved. **[01:23:46] Councilmember:** Second. **[01:23:47] Mayor Dan Rouser:** I have a motion a second any further discussion seeing none all those in favor say aye. (Aye) any opposed the resolution motion passes the resolution is adopted item number two resolution adopting the 2022 tax levy for taxes collectible in 2023 I'd entertain a motion. **[01:24:05] Councilmember:** So moved. **[01:24:06] Councilmember:** Second. **[01:24:07] Mayor Dan Rouser:** We have a motion a second all any further discussion all those in favor say aye. (Aye) any opposed motion carries item number three resolution committing fund balances for specific purposes do I have a motion to approve that. **[01:24:20] Councilmember:** So moved. **[01:24:21] Councilmember:** Second. **[01:24:22] Mayor Dan Rouser:** I have motion a second any further discussion seeing none all those in favor say aye. (Aye) any opposed motion carries resolution passes item four resolution authorizing contributions toward volunteer and employee recognition do I have a motion to approve that resolution. **[01:24:40] Councilmember:** Motion. **[01:24:41] Councilmember:** Second. **[01:24:42] Mayor Dan Rouser:** Any further discussion seeing none all those in favor say aye. (Aye) any opposed motion carries resolution passes lastly item five resolution authorizing and acknowledging contributions and involvement in promoting business and cultural activities do I have a motion to approve that. **[01:25:00] Councilmember:** Motion. **[01:25:01] Councilmember:** Second. **[01:25:02] Mayor Dan Rouser:** Any further discussion seeing none all those in favor say aye. (Aye) many opposed motion carries the resolution passes all right it brings us to item seven unfinished business second reading and public hearing of an ordinance adopting the 2023 fee schedule. Ms. Crawford? **[01:25:20] Lindy Crawford:** Thank you mayor members of the council so as the mayor just said this is the second reading of the fee schedule ordinance for 2023 I did go into great depth in this in the first reading I can do that again the only thing that has changed in the fee schedule which is in your packet is an increase for passports from fifteen dollars to 17 that is in line with other areas that we have researched that's the only change that has been made since the November 22nd council meeting so I can either present the staff report as I did or I can stand for questions whatever you prefer. **[01:25:55] Mayor Dan Rouser:** I think we got a pretty comprehensive rundown in the last council meeting council do we have any questions for Ms. Crawford or discussion on this? (Silence) I'm sorry it's a public hearing second reading public hearing I will open it up to the public hearing anybody want to speak to this issue going once going twice I'll now close the public hearing I have a motion a second any further discussion seeing none all those in favor say aye. (Aye) any opposed so motion carries resolution passes or the I'm sorry the ordinance that was a motion to adopt the ordinance now we're going to get to the resolution okay I'd entertain a motion adopt the resolution. **[01:26:45] Councilmember:** Motion. **[01:26:46] Councilmember:** Second. **[01:26:47] Mayor Dan Rouser:** I have a motion a second any further discussion all those in favor say aye. (Aye) any opposed the resolution is passed. **[01:26:55] Lindy Crawford:** Before we move on mayor I'd just like to express my gratitude thank you to mayor and the city council for your support um on the budget and the fee schedule this was a big one it was my first one here in White Bear Lake next week marks a year here so um appreciate all the support thank you. **[01:27:15] Mayor Dan Rouser:** Thank you for the good work next year I guess I've worked all right item eight new business resolution approving an amendment to the revenue note Northeast residence Inc project series 2017 and a master Amendment agreement. Ms. Kinsvater? **[01:27:30] Kerri Kinsvater (Finance Director):** Yes mayor members of the council this Revenue note is part of a conduit debt issue that was done by the city in 2017. before I get into the actual part of just discussing what needs to be done for this I thought I'd take a couple minutes just to kind of talk about conduit debt so with conduit debt the city has the ability to issue debt in its name to provide Capital financing for a third party that is not part of the city's financial reporting structure so the city of White Bear Lake for the conduit debt issues that we have they're primarily for non-profit organizations that can't issue debt and so by us letting them issue the debt with our name on it it helps them be able to qualify for tax-exempt rates we have multiple outstanding issues of conduit debts and the key points to remember when there is the conduit debt when we go through this process that the debt does not constitute a general or moral obligation of the city the debt is not secured by or payable by any of the property or assets that are owned by the city the debt is not secured by any taxing power of the city and the debt is not subject to any debt limitations that are imposed on the city so our name is on it and name only and when we issue these the non-profit organizations that have been issuing this debt they pay us there's a fee that goes with so we get money from them to help them be able to issue these debt processes. So for tonight we're looking at the revenue note bonds that were issued on May 24 2017. the original agreement amount was five million 665 thousand dollars and this was issued for Northeast residents Incorporated they used that money to refinance supervised living facilities for development developmentally disabled persons at multiple locations finance the acquisition renovation and equipment of a new facility for office space and client services and to pay the costs of the issuance of the bonds so there are amendments that need to be made for this note the borrower the first amendment that we need to do is update the borrower's name Northeast residents is merging with Hammer residents Incorporated and the new entity will be known as Hammer residents Incorporated as of January 1st 2023 so the amendment would update the name and change it from the Northeast residences to the Hammer residents the Second Amendment the note needs to reference a change in how the interest is calculated the original note uses the London interbank offered rate which is known as the LIBOR rate to calculate the interest however the LIBOR rate is being phased out and so the new note will calculate interest using the five-year treasury constant maturity index on that interest calculation the note will continue to be secured solely by the revenues derived from the loan agreement and from other security provided by the new borrower which would be the hammer residence and since this is an amendment to the note in the master agreement and not a new issue there's no impact on our ability to issue Bonds in a calendar year for 2022 and will not affect any other Bond issues. With that staff recommends the city council adopt the attached resolution amending the conduit debt Revenue note previously issued for Northeast residents Incorporated that will now be known as Hammer residences Incorporated as of January 1st 2023 and revise the interest rate index for the note we do have Bond attorney Julie Eddington with us tonight if there are any questions that we have regarding this issue. **[01:31:30] Mayor Dan Rouser:** Thank you Ms. Kinsvater so let me just see if I have this correct this is basically a formality pursuant to a buy sell and there's no real exposure for the city in doing this? **[01:31:40] Kerri Kinsvater:** Mr. Mayor and members of the council that is correct. **[01:31:42] Mayor Dan Rouser:** Okay Council any questions from Ms. Kinsvater or Miss Eddington? Seeing none I'd entertain a motion to approve the resolution. **[01:31:50] Councilmember:** So moved. **[01:31:51] Councilmember:** Second. **[01:31:52] Mayor Dan Rouser:** I have a motion a second any further discussion seeing none all those in favor say aye. (Aye) any opposed motion carries resolution passes. **[01:32:00] Councilmember Steven Edberg:** Mr. Mayor thank you Miss Eddington for sticking around appreciate that yes um so Northeast residents maintains their headquarters in our in our city and at some point as a follow-up could the city manager give us an update on the impact of the merger changes in officing employment whatever might be might be useful for us to know I'm not opposed I'm just purely it I'm just curious. **[01:32:25] Lindy Crawford:** Yes I can do that. **[01:32:27] Mayor Dan Rouser:** Very good item 8B resolution ordering the abatement of hazardous property and public nuisance located at 2239 Carlisle Court and I believe Mr. Lindahl is taking this please proceed. **[01:32:40] Jason Lindahl:** Council as you've mentioned the item before you tonight is consideration of a resolution ordering the abatement of a hazardous property in public nuisance at the property you just mentioned 2239 Carlisle Court there is significant detail in the staff report and attachments that's been provided to the council prior to the meeting staff would just summarize a few highlights of the history and engagement from a staff's perspective and then open it up for questions from other staff including the city's building official who is here in the audience and also the City Attorney and their firm that helped draft many of the documents that are before you tonight. I would also just also let the council know that the homeowner is in the audience tonight and while her name might not be on the list that was provided to you to speak she is indicated verbally to staff that she'd like the opportunity to address the council she's also indicated to staff that she does have a fairly hard timeline deadline for herself tonight so I'll try to be brief and then let get to the discussion. Just to summarize the information in your staff report you'll notice that back on May 19th staff began this process by responding to a complaint of concern from a fellow neighbor and resident about a large hole in this in the property that we're talking about tonight at that point City staff contacted the owner and made some initial determinations that conditions at the property could potentially be unhealthy and tried to connect the homeowner with other services and options that may be able to help that homeowner with a other places to live at the time just a few days later on May 25th staff worked to get an administrative search warrant and was allowed inside the home with the owner present and took a look at the conditions again and was was able to determine that their initial concerns were confirmed that it was on unhealthy on unsafe conditions for the property building official Ben Agan did take a closer look at from the inside of the property of the hole that was actually in the roof and noted that it likely had been there for a number of years and had it caused extensive damage throughout the house including water damage throughout the house collapse of certain sheetrock and ceiling materials noticed that there was no functioning plumbing in the house and that there was considerable debris in the house as well based on those findings they made a determination that the property was unfit at that time for human habitation. Again a few days later the building official issued a on excuse me on June 8th the building official issued a formal notice of the violations as it related specifically to city code and the housing code that particular notice included a 120-day timeline to comply with those with that notice and inform the owner of the appeal process that is actually built into the code at that point since June 8th staff has been had conversations with both the homeowner and and Ramsey County that they are in contact with each other with some potential funds to assist the homeowner and some of these repairs and conditions on the property however at this point none of those funds have been secured and again it's those sources of funding is from the city it's not from the city it's from the county so we're not directly involved in the administration or determining if those funds would or could be awarded. You'll note in your staff report that the homeowner is also secured a few bids related to some of the items that would need to be repaired but the staff just would highlight for you that those bids addressed kind of additional initial repair of the roof and or clean out cleaning out of the property but don't address the other conditions that the building official has noticed namely the plumbing or the the potential electrical or repairs of sheetrock and water damage and that kind of thing. I think it's also important to note for the council tonight that included in your packet was a copy of the letter that was sent directly to the homeowner about this item being on the council's agenda for tonight and both and the building official you know verbally talked to the homeowner about this and which is evidence of her presence at the meeting here tonight copy of that letter was also sent to the mortgagee and the mortgager on this property which is a U.S. Bank. And so really the item before you is based on the staff's concern of the ongoing situation and then and how to address how to potentially move forward given the conditions and the timeline that that has happened to date so that is why staff has given put before you tonight a resolution considering in order for abatement that timeline the specific order that's included in your packet again was drafted by the City Attorney and their firm and they can answer specific legal questions about it but I would just highlight for you that basically what this does is it starts a new clock ticking us and the way the order is framed currently it starts a 60-day clock and at the end of that timeline should the court even approve the order that would give the city the potential authority to mitigate the circumstances the conditions on the property so with that I would stand for questions and note that again the city attorney's here to talk specifics about the legal side of things and building official Ben Agan is here to talk about any of the specifics of the interaction with staff up to this date specifically with the homeowner or any of the more details of the building or housing codes that you may have questions about. **[01:38:15] Mayor Dan Rouser:** Right thank you Mr. Lindahl. Mr. Agan do you have anything to add at this time or do you want to just be on standby for questions? **[01:38:20] Ben Agan (Building Official):** Um no I don't have anything more to add but I'm here to answer any questions you might have. **[01:38:25] Mayor Dan Rouser:** Very good and Ms. Remus it sounds like you're in the audience please step forward we'd like to hear from you. **[01:38:35] Nan Remus (Homeowner):** Hand them to the clerk um and I do have a hard deadline to get back to where I'm staying so I'll try to be quick and I would have my Chanel suit on and heels but I'm in a homeless shelter so this is homeless chic. Good evening members of the council mayor public my name is Nan Remus and I am here this evening because the city council as you addressed is considering adopting a resolution ordering an abatement of my home of 52 years ah what they are describing as a hazardous property and public nuisance and I strongly urge this city to set aside such an abatement order as I have diligently and with literal Blood Sweat and Tears worked to put together the funds through digitized stocks from my father's estate which was worth over sixty thousand dollars which I have addressed with Ben Agan what was supposed to be twenty five thousand dollars and which is coming um through Ramsey County and I have just found out tonight there's an additional possible thirty thousand dollars through other programs that Portia Jackson has addressed through something called slipstream um which is also through Ramsey County so that's supplemental information I haven't been able to download yet but I did have extensive conversations with slipstream today um and I've also put together a plan to resolve this matter with a group of contractors under Ryan construction probably the best construction firm in the state who are willing to do the work essentially pro bono plus any payment for me for parts so um basically there is a plan to resolve this matter I believe to everyone you know all interested parties satisfaction. First I'd like to tell you something about myself so you know who I am and my ties to White Bear I have lived and my White Bear Lake home since 1970. again for 52 years my beloved parents now passed Herbert and Rojean Remus gave me this home through inheritance and uh they wanted me to have this home very much my father was had a valuation engineering for the Burlington Northern Railroad and transferred here with the company when it moved its headquarters from St. Paul to St. Paul. He led to golf primarily at Manitou Ridge ball and the Chicago Bears he also loved me and he left his beloved house to me my mother Rojean was a lifelong homemaker whose selflessly raised a family was an earth mother to all who needed her fiercely proud of her Swedish heritage and a season ticket holder with my father to her favorite team the Minnesota Vikings so Vikings and Bears games were always a major event at our house and the Metrodome from my parents. Oh sure sure I just got over out of the hospital for five days so pardon me for my voice much better thank you I apologize. As for me I was born in Chicago in 1962 and moved to White Bear with my parents in 1970. I went to Lakers Elementary School where I began many years of dance classes have jazz in ballet which I excelled in and loved Sunrise Middle School where the phys Ed teachers insisted that I teach all the boys to dance and Mariner High School now White Bear South Campus and subsequently I went to Lakewood Community College in El Century College where I graduated with honors and then transferred to the University of Minnesota where I received a four-year BABS baccalaureate degree and a paralegal certificate separately and yes continued all my dancing skills at the U of M the Oz Rupert's Cafe First Avenue and had wonderful times in Minnesota. While at the U of M I got an internship with the Attorney General's office in the Criminal Division I was very motivated to pursue criminal law especially after investigating a case where there was where a man tried to murder his wife with a tire iron she was in an incredibly brave woman and the perpetrator was successfully prosecuted because of this fulfilling experience I became a white-collar crime investigator I accepted jobs and insurance investigator with the Minnesota Department of Commerce for 14 years also doing some securities investigation work and many of my cases involved successful prosecutions including a white-collar crime case featured on Eyewitness News and many were widows or bilked from their life savings by select manipulative insurance and securities agents these women were in some cases reduced to eating dog food to survive while these agents were living high on the hog in Minnetonka no offense to anyone from Minnetonka. I was proud to have brought these cases to prosecution and I am so proud and always will be I have tried to help people my entire life even now in the hellish homeless circumstances I am now surviving in where I live in fear for my life every day where shootings occur in front of the shelter one block to the left rapes one walk to the right and rampant daily view of drug and use and prostitution I have been injured repeatedly unhospitalized several times including a concussion from people who are on drugs because of my displacement now I need to help myself I need my home back the same home that I lived in when I subsequently went to law school at William Mitchell College of Law graduating magna laude while concurrently maintaining my full-time job at the Minnesota Department of Commerce I subsequently clerked and worked at Fay Green Bunsen for seven and a half years specializing in employee benefits law. Subsequently my parents became terminally ill and I was the primary caretaker for both of them my mother who was and will always be my closest and dearest friend contracted Alzheimer's disease or had many strokes in the brain excuse me the doctors never conclusively agreed on which it was when my father got sick it was much more specific he had prostate cancer I got him and my mother all the help I possibly could but he died in my arms at Regions Hospital on October 25th 2011. the day after his 80th birthday the immeasurable scar of losing my parents under such awful circumstances will never heal I could not save them but I can save their now my house that again I emphasize I've lived in for 52 years. During my father's progressive prostate cancer we suffered water damage to our home on the main level of our house we immediately called White Bear Plumbing our long-term plumber which recommended a company called Stop to dry out the house tear out the cabinets flooring drywall etc all Stop did was the tear out and dry out. Stop dumped all of the contents of the cabinets onto the floors of her home took most of the Allstate Insurance money that my father never filed to claim on until then uh they basically through a low ball offer that should have been three times the estimate according to Preferred kitchens of White Bear Lake scammed my father and left then Stop you know calling all together prior to this I helped my father choose cabinetry and flooring with a custom cabinet maker I kept the teak like cabinet prototype and called the cabinet maker after Stop stopped responding the cabinet maker's reply was ma'am Stop picked up the prototype but never placed the order I learned that Stop's license was revoked by the Attorney General's office and that they filed bankruptcy in Florida. At this point my father's prostate cancer got progressively worse I got him to a urologist to perform prostate surgery where he recovered in a Transitional Care Facility was recovering and I immediately hired another contractor named Applewood construction with my own money and the small amount of Allstate money that was left they finished the kitchen but did a slap dash job and just like Stop never cleaned anything or put back into the cabinets as required by the All-State estimate the items that were dumped on the floor by Stop. Sadly just as I got the house repairs finished my father passed away. Years later I did try to get a new roof onto the house but all the local and major roofers who I contacted were booked approximately 2018 I drove by a house a few blocks away on Cedar Avenue in White Bear and saw a contractor putting roof on an angled corner house he had all the proper paperwork in the window and the roofing work looked good from my vantage point I asked him to come to my home and look at the roof he agreed after walking on my roof with his son and looking at it he found no holes or other damage then he put sealant on tacked on the apron that my father had placed around the chimney he opted to put a new roof on my home for fifteen thousand dollars and I agreed his only request was that I got a permit because he was busy on Cedar Avenue he said I've never had to obtain a contracting permit before but somewhat suspect I arrived here at City Hall explained the situation and was told that contractors usually pull permits I explained that he claimed that he was busy and I was there at his request subsequently asking if they would check his licensing status your clerks could not find him in the system I then called the state of Minnesota for roofer licensing I learned that this gentleman had been a licensed worker for approximately 30 years but stopped accumulating his continuing education requirements in 2008. I subsequently spoke with his kind contractor about this who told me that because of the 2008 economic crash he was unable to afford his continuing education requirements but that his permit from White Bear Lake and related documents were legitimate I obviously declined his repeated offers to do business with me all of this brings us to where we are now my water damaged home which I have the money again through my father's digitized stocks they were NSP stocks now Xcel Energy worth over sixty thousand dollars and contractors to fix it so through Ryan construction and again they've offered to work pro bono plus you know parts and I can clearly afford that. All I need is time four months to be exact the head of my excellent contracting team Dan Doherty who couldn't be here tonight has laid out the following time parameters for fixing my home January removal of cars and garbage to have it ready for workable conditions along with a temporary roof wrap to stop any moisture from entering my home to February a license permit an electrician plumber excuse me an electrician he knows who make the necessary repairs to my home three March a roofer will install a new roof he thought if he would have known me earlier he would have just come out and done it himself after 52 years living in this house in White Bear Lake which means so much to me I think that it is more than reasonable that the council gave me four months laid out in this plan to not do so is simply punitive and given what I've been through and endured at the Dorothy Day Center since being displaced from my home I think I've been punished enough it's the holidays let's please be compassionate and generous then there is the law the city wants to claim the property is hazardous my excellent contractor who is arguably the best contracting firm in the state who inspected the home unequivocally states that it is structurally sound and simply needs cleanup and repairs to be in compliance which he and his colleagues can do he actually told me again that he could do it himself thus the house is structurally stable not a fire hazard with trash removal and not a hazard to Public Safety especially when it is being repaired by these excellent contractors. In an information brief drafted by the Minnesota House of Representatives which I've passed out as exhibit A updated in July of 2015 addressing Minnesota's public and private nuisance laws it clearly sets forth how an owner can avoid an abatement order by quote entering into an abatement plan with a prosecuting attorney that may also independently abate the nuisance without entering into a formal plan for abatement the nuisance activity must be abated which I'm attempting to or the plan entered into that's what I'd like a plan with excuse me pardon me within 30 days of her sheet of notice from the prosecuting attorney to prevent the issuance of enforcement of an order this law is set forth in Minnesota statute 617.82 I'm certain the city of White Bear Lake does not want to spend its money on an abatement I want to spend my money on fixing my house you have the power to make that happen therefore I am asking you to set aside the abatement order and give me the proper extension of time four months to resolve this matter so we can all get on with our lives and I can live in peace thank you. **[01:52:45] Mayor Dan Rouser:** Thank you Ms. Remus thank you I'm going to offer a few comments and then I'll open up the council favorite questions for either Mr. Lindahl or Mr. Agan so Ms. Remus first of all this is a first for me and it might be a first for a lot on the council this is not something that the city of White Bear Lake does often from what I gather and I'll tell you personally this is a very tough situation to be in this is not an easy thing to threaten to take someone's home and you have my sympathy it sounds like you've fallen on some hard times and had a a rough go about it with some contractors um suffering some losses in your family and um so you know for that you have my condolences. I think we're all on this Council human beings I also look at what our role is in this situation and I think you can appreciate this as an attorney so from one attorney to another I see our role as not the last stop for you but really the last stop is what a district court judge will ultimately decide from the city of White Bear Lake standpoint I think we need to look at the health and safety of the property in its current form and it has been deemed by our building official and others that it is unsanitary it is unhealthy it is unsafe and that then creates a risk for us as a city your neighbors the general public so that's what I view it through and in reading through this material and quite frankly seeing some of the pictures of the current state of your home not being a contractor but being a layperson with this it looks it looks pretty bad it looks to be at a state of disrepair so hang on Ms. Remus I'm going to finish you can step up here but so so um so here's how I see us in this process. I think given the unhealthy and unsafe condition that it creates it would be a miscarriage of justice for our duty to the citizens to not say this rises to the level that warrants an abatement and condemnation of this property or at least from our role to say we want to put this in the hands of a district court judge to make a determination and if in fact you do have a four-month plan then I would encourage you to as I'm sure you will if this Council does move forward to make that case to the judge who will have the power to give you 60 days four months six months and I want to make it clear I hope that this ends successfully if this does if this if the council does ultimately move this and pass it I hope you get a district court judge that wants to work with you and that after the end of it we can all sit down and say the house is repaired it's in good working order nobody wants at the city to go forward with this but we do have a responsibility and a duty to gather the facts look at in its current form and act accordingly and I think moving forward with this and passing this resolution is the appropriate course of action at this time so I will urge the council to pass this resolution as a non-voting person but just looking at this from the standpoint of an attorney and what our role is in the process and the fact that there is another stop point for Ms. Remus and I think a district court judge should ultimately making this determination and not this body but I think it is appropriate to move it forward. So with that I will open it up to the council and questions for for staff if there are any councilmember Walsh. **[01:56:45] Councilmember Kevin Walsh:** yeah um Mr. Agan have there been any comments by neighbors in terms of did they notice it from the outside is this a nuisance factor to them? I'm curious if this is a singular issue for one individual person or if this is something that affects many people. **[01:57:05] Ben Agan:** no other calls the initial call I believe came from a different party okay okay. **[01:57:10] Councilmember Kevin Walsh:** um and I guess um maybe you seem to love your house and as I was listening to your story it sounds like it kind of began with a kitchen problem almost 12 years ago and and uh slid into more interior problems until you have a roof problem kind of around 2018. **[01:57:30] Nan Remus:** well I think there was a misdiagnosis they said initially a pipe broke but I think it was truly a roof problem and and I guess... **[01:57:35] Councilmember Kevin Walsh:** were you were you living in it at that point and it was not it wasn't it rise to the level of problematic for you that some of these things needed to get fixed or what was the... **[01:57:45] Nan Remus:** yeah no they were fixed ultimately as I said I had one bad contractor right all with my father right was caretaking him and then I hired another contractor who rectified it right so and then obviously there was water collecting the roof I didn't know about and things were exacerbated so I hope does that answer your question in some ways. **[01:58:05] Councilmember Kevin Walsh:** my I don't want to take your house thank you thank you I don't but but the other thing is I want you to you live in a place that you should that that you that you are proud to be living in and it sounds like you've had some problems going forward and there's a little bit of how it is there a process for us to help you do that because we can't do that. **[01:58:30] Nan Remus:** no and I and going back to the mayor's point if that's something the district court can offer in terms of a handshake and I don't know how these things work I I mean I'm not trying to put words in your mouth I just it would be um my end goal here is to get your house fixed and I don't know until that happens since it hasn't happened for a decade well so that's my... **[01:58:55] Mayor Dan Rouser:** yeah no hang on for one second Ms. Remus perhaps it'd be helpful for our City Attorney to maybe lay out the process a little bit so that everyone's going and fully informed of how this will work. **[01:59:05] City Attorney:** Mr. Mayor and Council just briefly uh there are a number of different code provisions and state statute that intersects here and so the way our office typically handles these is to go under the hazardous building statute because it prescribes a an abatement process that gets you to a resolution of this of these sorts of situations obviously the the overall goal here here is exactly that let's get the fix the house fixed up to code. Um you know we're sitting from City's involvement you know roughly six months in it hasn't been fixed what the order does and this is based on the statute if you adopt this this evening this then gets served on on the homeowner the way it's drafted right now there'd be a 60-day period in which to correct the violations if the corrections are not completed within the 60-day period then we can move forward with filing that with the district court there's a 20-day opportunity to respond then it goes to district court the court then reviews it either because there was a response or in in default if there was no response in either case the court reviews the situation provides another date by which the the issues need to be corrected and then if that date comes and goes then the city is authorized to go in and correct so we're not really taking anything just to be clear we're not condemning the property we're abating it through in this case it would probably be raising of of the home but that would be a decision that would be made through the district court process so that's so this is not a 60-day something magic happens 60 days is filing it with the court if it's not corrected by then and so then there would still be a process that would occur after that and likely another opportunity beyond that for additional corrections again the city doesn't want to step into this if you don't have to it's just when nothing else has worked then and at some point the city steps in and corrects the situation. **[02:01:05] Nan Remus:** may I say I was displaced from my house so I obviously clean it up even though when I was there because I was out for three days then they brought me back because they said it was safer for me to stay in my basement and then three weeks later they took me out again so the same people so it was very disconcerting thank you here's our lives under... **[02:01:25] Mayor Dan Rouser:** me to cut you off are there any other questions for Ms. Remus on the council? Councilmember Jones. **[02:01:30] Councilmember Bill Jones:** yes thank you Mr. Mayor so I do have a couple questions so you stated that you have you have some funds from the Ramsey County grant program even though the letter that where I'm sitting in front of me is as eligible you have since secured that? **[02:01:45] Nan Remus:** well yes um and Ben will agree to this we were told by a gentleman named Curtis Bennett with Ramsey County that I got the 25,000 from them we just found out yesterday from Portia Jackson with Ramsey County that I got the five thousand dollar cap money secured but the twenty thousand dollars um I was assured I would definitely get today but that's a separate distinct application they kept switching the application dates and I did fill out an application for this with Portia Jackson in her office in the Ramsey County Courthouse but um for some reason she miscommunicated with Curtis Bennett and he told Ben and I I had the 25,000 dollars so okay thank you that's so there's your answer but I I was assured today I still I will get that money but regardless I have the stock money from my father um and that's over sixty thousand dollars but notwithstanding that these people from Ryan construction out of the goodness of their heart and I just met them otherwise I would have had them in earlier obviously it they're willing to do this basically free except for you know parts which I can clearly afford but I just met these people a few months ago at the shelter so I I you know again I that's why you know this is new information and I would have done this much sooner but I all I'm asking for is a chance any money I have now would be eaten up through litigation and all I want to put all my money toward my house all I'm asking for is four months that's it. **[02:03:30] Councilmember Bill Jones:** another question Mr. Mayor you say you got your home through inheritance I did but yet it was only legally registered with the county in the last few months? **[02:03:40] Nan Remus:** no what happened was when my father when my father lost my mother obviously he was very devastated as we all were and he didn't take her her name off the title and my probate lawyer was supposed to take care of all this she didn't so I I had to and I did thank goodness I am a lawyer I did get her name off the title and then my father's name and had it retitled to me so I did all that um myself this summer and got as I said grant money I went through that process and went through the process of doing the stock sale and transfer and I'm dealing with the third party administrator for Xcel Energy again these pre-digitized stocks were started as NSP and they've been extremely difficult I had to get probate documents all certified copies death certificates all the banking information with medallion stamps I walked down to their office in Mendota height or cab down there actually handed it to them started to cry handing the death certificates because I was very close to my parents didn't want to look at them the woman who took the documents said they were pristine everything was done perfectly and I should have the money in a week then um when I I didn't I got a letter a week later may I just say this they said I understand we need an affidavit from your mother I said my mother is dead. **[02:05:00] Mayor Dan Rouser:** Are there any other questions actually I want to exercise... Mrs. Remus I understand that but it's like here's my point. Yes we've been I've been through this oh not personally on the council this has happened and I personally watched a person in your position throw away roughly sixty thousand dollars in trying to attempt and I'm looking at your house no I'm not a professional contractor and I appreciate you getting trying to get kitchen cabinets but it's like you were rearranging the Titanic the chairs on the Titanic the cabinets didn't matter you had a six foot hole in your roof and there's no way that that could have just happened at 2018 to do the amount of damage that has come through. And I bring up the cabinets reason because I've been in the cabinetry business for a long long time I've been around contractors to ignore the plumbing to ignore the electrical to ignore something that is not fit for human habitation it's not I trust that gentleman over there Mr. Engen as far as he is primarily as well as I am concerned about your health and well-being I've walked personally walked by your house when this issue came back up and said what does it look like and I agree with it that it really doesn't from the curb you would walk by it you'd never notice it for that matter you live right next door to someone who knows what they're doing okay no idea. My point is the inside of that house the facilities I don't want to ask questions and I will not ask questions but they can't be done right now we need to put you on a clock we need to have that clock for your own safety you can't go back in there it's not fit there's no facilities to do to live to be well that's that's where I'm saying I'm not abating this house right I'm I'm not taking it away I'm saying we need to get this to a district court to get you to the point where you are going to be legally required to continue to do what you're already doing which thank you thank you for doing this I appreciate my father died in 2020. I was close to him I bought his house on 2181 Cedar Avenue I went to the same schools you did exactly the same schools you did but I can't let you go back into that house because I care more about you than you wanting to be in that house and that's not safe if you can fix it up I'm just cautioning you I've seen this happened where someone spent sixty thousand dollars and didn't make it they couldn't raise the it wasn't and I'm sorry I honestly don't trust your judgment of contractors you're not telling you didn't tell me a really good now hearing Ryan I trust that name okay so hopefully I just I am very cautious about you throwing away this money because we watched I know that you didn't make it we watched this happen same thing sixty thousand dollars and it all went for naught they couldn't fix it they couldn't get it done. **[02:08:15] Nan Remus:** well maybe don't strike me dead this man actually walked through the house he saw the pictures he's seen everything and he told me that he can do it and he's been a contractor for I believe 30 years and he's excellent as I understand it and you know I want to try you know you can't win if you don't play kind of thing I appreciate your concern. **[02:08:40] Mayor Dan Rouser:** sorry Ms. Remus I don't mean to cut you off but I I think we've got a full a full picture of the contractors that you have lined up and we you know wish you the best with that are there any other questions for Ms. Remus before the council just brings it back for deliberation or a vote on this? I don't see any thank you Ms. Remus I appreciate it. **[02:09:00] Nan Remus:** so I do have to leave soon but... **[02:09:02] Mayor Dan Rouser:** understood I would entertain a motion to approve the resolution. **[02:09:05] Councilmember Steven Edberg:** thank you Mr. Mayor so I don't have a question for Ms. Remus I have a conversation with the council so we are sitting at the middle of December 60 days puts us in the middle of February is that re okay I get the we want to get on a clock right there is a good faith on the other side 60 days to do roof repairs at this time of year it does not strike me as reasonable but I get what we're trying to do what what what's workable? **[02:09:40] Mayor Dan Rouser:** here's how I see this with with due respect to the 60 days and the time of year this is most recently a six-month Saga but goes back years and years beyond that and I am confident that if we put a 60-day timeline on it as a mechanism to hold Ms. Remus accountable and again I wish you the best I hope you're successful at this but at this point I think the city needs to draw a line in the sand and say we're going to move forward with this 60 days the court will then have an opportunity to say guys it's mid-February she couldn't do it in 60 days I'm going to give her 120 and that's fine that's up to the court to do but at the end of the day quite frankly I'm not confident that 120 days we'll get this done I think I think we're sitting here expecting a different result which is years in the making and I hope I'm wrong but at this point I think you have to make a decision and say we need to pull the levers that the city has to pull in the interest of health and safety in what is a years years old issue at this point so I think 60 days is reasonable and if I'm wrong a district court judge won't be shy about saying I'm going to give you 120 days after the 60 days that assumes we get into court on the 61st day which the City Attorney can correct me if I'm wrong but it's probably not likely so let's be realistic about the timeline it's 60 days and then it goes to the courts and then there's a time to make a decision so I'm I'm I don't share your concern about 60 days not being long enough. I'm sorry Ms. Remus we're deliberating right now um I think I've given you a fair opportunity to speak and I'm glad you're here to convey your arguments so that's that's where I stand on the 60 days. councilmember Walsh. **[02:11:35] Councilmember Kevin Walsh:** well thank you Mr. Mayor that's that's for me that's kind of the decision is as I've been listening and looking at the 60 days in the resolution in front of us or the order in front of us um I could go one of two ways in my head we could we could stick to what's written here and do the 60 days and then let the court proceedings go I agree I think it's gonna be impossible to get into court right away obviously in day 61 so that builds in some automatic extra time right there as possible then it's in the hands of a judge and then I'm a little uncomfortable to say that I mean so you we're sort of saying we're like we're letting our Ramsey County district court judge make this decision. The other alternative is to is to do the 120 right here in the resolution give her the four months they give you know and it yes it's still a res it's still I agree that we need to do something we need to start another clock I understand years in the making six months in the making this is this is this is real this is a real clock with consequences at the end of it a path that gets us gets us through it that hasn't happened until now and I get why it hasn't and that's the process so I don't know I'm I'm sort of torn between moving the 60 to 120 and making a deal with our resident for the four months that she's asked for and then the process goes and you know with an end in sight because it will go through the process one way or the other I I could be convinced that the 60 is adequate because it's probably another 60 built in afterwards so but it's not really me making that deal with her then it's it's me making it half the deal and hoping the rest of the deal comes through either by a court clerk scheduling something or a district judge giving her more time so I I don't know I'm I'm torn I'm arguing with myself here I mean I could argue easily that the 60 days is fair and if if if we take her at her word and and there's an honest effort and a real effort to fix it when she shows up in court after 60 days she'll have progress to report and the judge I can't imagine a judge saying not saying keep going get it done they're no the court doesn't want to take the house nobody wants the house in the system everybody wants the homeowner to succeed so I could argue for the 60 days because I think if if she does the work and the money comes through as we've seen some of this progress I can't imagine that Ramsey County District Court said oh nope sorry 61 days you're out but on the other hand I wouldn't mind making the deal with her myself with the city saying all right you want four months we'll give you four months so [Laughter] strong both sides I love playing games the city manager hates playing let's make a deal at the dice um we've made some good deals over the years though... **[02:14:40] Councilmember Bill Jones:** I'm hearing councilmember Edberg I'm hearing councilmember Walsh I also I'm fighting the she's had four months more than four months she was informed in June now a formal order I get it I'm willing to consider that we give 60 days basically push this out 60 and see what happens and that's the least debate I don't know the negatives I'm not sure I'm following it so you're you're willingness out to keep this resolution in February 60 days is what's written oh to the district yeah but it doesn't change much we'd have to push power... **[02:15:20] Councilmember Steven Edberg:** Mr. Jones what I'm hearing you say but I'm not sure I'm absolutely clear is that um you're suggesting we not act on this we bring it back to us for Action in 60 days and if we have not been that we've not seen the kind of progress that supports motion then we refer to the then we give 60 days to and it goes to the court is that what you're saying? **[02:15:45] Mayor Dan Rouser:** yes in well let me let me try before staff sorry Mr. Mayor I just think that's a bad idea because I think I think we should act tonight and take an action to get the clock moving. work hasn't happened because there's not been this accountability in place this is a piece of accountability that's new I think we need to do something tonight to add that layer of accountability if we say oh you got two months and there's nothing on the table yet we could have the same result as the last few years and the last six months. **[02:16:15] Councilmember Kevin Walsh:** yeah so I would say let's at least pass something to get this clock started and then if it's if it's 60 and we want to just let the rest of it ride I'd vote for that if if others wanted to do 120 today because because I I agree with what the mayor said earlier you know this is a huge deal we're talking about people's property people's house I I want to give every opportunity from even from the city's perspective that's why I'm kind of that's why I lean towards that 120 if she says four months all right you got four months but we gotta I think we got to make a decision tonight because start some clock tonight. **[02:16:50] Mayor Dan Rouser:** yeah I agree I think I think that there's also an element of of City staff's time City staff's frustration this is something that has been going on for a long time so it's not like this is a brand new thing and we're being hasty about this uh hang on um we're not being hasty about this so I think we do need to take action I I I I would I would advise the council that as I preface at the beginning we shouldn't take this lightly we're talking about taking someone's home but we have a duty has anyone has everyone on the council had a chance to look at the pictures that were taken of this home? We have a duty and a responsibility to set a minimum bar for how a home needs to be maintained and when you're when you see the pictures and a roof that is not something that blew off on a storm a couple weeks ago and it blew off in a storm a couple weeks ago but something that has been at a state of disrepair for years this is nothing new so there's a concept called trust but verify I'm happy trusting Ms. Remus if you say it's going to take 120 days great but I need to verify it through passing this giving you 60 days I'm confident that if you're going to work over the next 60 days you're as an attorney you're going to present these facts to the judge show contracts with contractors down payments whatever it is to show substantial performance towards making good on this and the judge will grant you whatever time you need I think we have to put that check in place and I think 60 days is reasonable despite the calendar the time of the year being winter I just think this is a it's it's setting Ms. Remus up for a path to potential success and if she makes good on it great and if she doesn't then we need to we need to do what we need to do as a city to make sure we don't have properties like this. Due respect Ms. Remus you are an attorney and I think you know well that if you go to court and represent yourself you are going to get the most favorable result from a judge. **[02:18:50] Councilmember Heidi Hughes:** that's a question for Mr. Dragon uh no nothing has changed physically at the house so that there's a fair amount of high content in the home um all of it remains the roof leak still continues on there's been no tarp added to the roof mainly what Ms. Remus has been doing has been trying to transfer the title and to try to get these funds through the county she doesn't have the money so she can't really hire anybody so she's kind of had her hands tied so no there hasn't been anything really done at all other than her work on the background. **[02:19:30] Mayor Dan Rouser:** so not even a shovel of the place no I guess I I feel like um backing up backing up what you guys are saying there needs to be a clock that's going to run but based on her own personal testimony and the things that have happened for the last six months I don't really want to extend beyond the 60 days to um to the district court because I'd like somebody to hold her hand and make sure all this happens and I don't think that's the job of the city and if and if it isn't going to take place then it seems like we've already been through a lot of this for a long enough period of time um looking at those pictures I can't believe that that's that house that's been lived in for that long at the same time I don't think that that's my responsibility some of that is mental health that just isn't it's not my responsibility as a city council person it's not doesn't mean that I don't care about it but I don't I don't know that that's my job here but um I do think that it's my job going back to what you were saying in terms of property around here that it will very soon devolve into nuisance property that doesn't sound like it has yet in terms of um to the neighbors and um and and will be unrepairable and then we get into some conversations that you've brought up in the past um that why did we let it get that going that far I'd really like to be generous to her but her own personal testimony doesn't seem to lay out that not putting feet to the fire doesn't doesn't help her and that she's willing to let a lot of things go I guess so um I'm very hopeful that the district judge is um finds a way to work with her I'm also very hopeful that inside those 60 days you get a contract a pro bono contract with Ryan construction and and they come in and start it and the day they started the day I think the district court extends out that time period but um that's not that's not my job here. **[02:21:40] Lindy Crawford:** Thank you mayor members of the council um staff does it's never our goal or our desire to bring these forward to you when these get brought forward to the city council it's we've tried everything this has been all the way up to the city manager's office for many many months we have tried everything that we had that we could try Ben has worked exceptionally well with Ms. Remus and we have not seen progress that is why this is here tonight um the 60 days I believe we actually started at 30 and I think internally we talked should it be 45 let's do 60. so know that staff has tried and we have exhausted every option that we could and it is our goal in the city council's goal to ensure the health safety and general general welfare of this community that includes every resident it does include how they inhabit in their homes and this is currently an uninhabitable home. **[02:22:35] Councilmember Bill Jones:** thank you Mr. Mayor thank you city manager I'd at least appreciated the discussion but I find it I do appreciate the discussion that needed to happen but I think I will stay with what we have presented in front of us. **[02:22:50] Councilmember Heidi Hughes:** mayor I mean both I think looking at both sides I'll move to order abatement of hazardous building at 2239 Carlisle Court. **[02:23:00] Mayor Dan Rouser:** I have a motion do I have a second? **[02:23:01] Councilmember Kevin Walsh:** Motion and a second from councilmember Walsh. **[02:23:03] Mayor Dan Rouser:** Any further discussion on this? **[02:23:05] Councilmember Kevin Walsh:** just quickly one question are we a party to the district court action so we could we could present we could show up and speak at that and we are we we are we a party to that? **[02:23:15] City Attorney:** Mr. Mayor and Councilmember yes this is an action that the city is initiated so we're one of the parties to ultimately get the property into compliance so we have another chance to speak we have a chance to influence this judge as well when that time if that if and when that time comes. **[02:23:30] Councilmember Kevin Walsh:** I said that gives me a little more comfort to stick with the 60-day timeline let's let's get the get it going and see if we can get some progress and then we'll be a party to that Court proceeding so we can say judge there's progress please give her some more time we're judge there's no progress we've tried everything we need to end this now I'm comfortable with the 60-day timeline with that knowing that's right. **[02:23:55] Mayor Dan Rouser:** thank you any further discussion all those in favor say aye. (Aye) any opposed? **[02:24:00] Councilmember Steven Edberg:** No. **[02:24:01] Mayor Dan Rouser:** motion carries the resolution passes. **[02:24:05] Nan Remus:** All right. **[02:24:07] Mayor Dan Rouser:** moving on to item 8C resolution approving the decertification of tax increment financing in District number 25. Ms. Shimek? **[02:24:15] Tracy Shimek:** mayor members of council um this is a somewhat routine unroutine manner I will give a brief history on tax increment tax increment financing District 25. it was created in 1999 and encompasses an area of downtown both east and west of Highway 61 generally north of 4th Street um the text the TIF District was created to facilitate redevelopment in the area and some redevelopment that was spurred in relation to the creation of that TIF district includes the Arbors Oak Ridge office building White Bear Lake professional building and the CVS Pharmacy among other public improvements to the area at this time we have met all the financial obligations through our collection of tax increments and therefore the city is required to decertify the tax increment District the the result of the decertification of the tax increment District means that instead of collecting increment to cover the costs of the improvements in the area tax collection property tax collection for that district will revert to the distribution of property taxes as in any non-TIF district property so split amongst the the taxing agencies that typically collect property taxes that is my brief summary and with that I will stand for any questions. **[02:25:30] Mayor Dan Rouser:** thank you Council any questions or discussion on this seeing that councilmember Edberg. **[02:25:40] Councilmember Steven Edberg:** so achieved by the vision that's now 20 over 20 years old 22 23 years old um could could we ask you folks to go outside Randy can I ask you to take that conversation outside the so there was a vision about how to develop property and how to what might go into that property and that's there's an instructive lesson for us to think about what does this tool do for us and now we're at the end of that we might be at the beginning of this visioning for other properties or other places evidence maybe by the County Roadie Corridor conversation earlier maybe by other developments elsewhere but this one turned out actually pretty damn well so let's think about what lessons we learned from that that's my only observation. **[02:26:30] Councilmember Bill Jones:** very good councilmember Jones simple follow-up yes just to state that obviously valuations have changed but a 6.8 million and 99 25.8 in 2022 obviously percentage factors you know are affected like that but I think we made the money and investment this is where TIF can be used TIF combined with the city staff the core of this was CVS if we're all memories right yeah wasn't the big evil empire now we can't control other decisions that happened around the city i.e. reeds and that we're still suffering from today but thank you Mr. Mayor. **[02:27:15] Mayor Dan Rouser:** would anyone like to make a motion on this resolution? **[02:27:20] Councilmember:** I'll move the resolution. **[02:27:21] Councilmember:** Motion a second. **[02:27:22] Mayor Dan Rouser:** any further discussion all those in favor say aye. (Aye) any opposed motion carries the resolution passes moving on to item 8D first reading of a zoning ordinance text amendment development review process. Mr. Lindahl? **[02:27:40] Jason Lindahl:** Mayor members of the council as you mentioned this is the first reading of an ordinance before you tonight related to development review process specifically the concept plan review process and the neighborhood meeting process you may recall I'll just try to I'll just try to do a quick summary here um and and then certainly respond to any questions the council may have. So you may recall that the council did both the Planning Commission and council did look at this in in draft form for discussion in previous months the ordinance that is before you is substantially the same as what as were reviewed in concept form both before the Planning Commission and yourself since that time staff is drafted that concept language into our initial language into a formal ordinance and that's what's before you tonight the Planning Commission did hold a public hearing to review that ordinance at their previous meeting and summary of that that conversation is included in your packet staff would summarize that to say that the plan commission was overall supportive of the ordinance found that it was consistent with what they originally saw in initial form in previous months and I had addressed a number of the questions and concerns that the Planning Commission has. Um so again both at this point both staff and the Planning Commission are recommending approval oh and I'm sorry I also should have noted during that public hearing that occur at the Planning Commission there was no comment from staff or from the public and staff has not received any comment as well so um included in your packet again is that draft ordinance beginning with that neighborhood meeting process again the purpose and intent here is to expand and enhance the dissemination of information and encourage participation by the public that ordinance then goes on to detail when it would apply the schedule that it would follow on the noticing requirements and the meeting materials process that would be included the developers specific responsibilities for that particular are the applicants responsibilities it also lays out I would call attention to a modification section where it allows some discretion for when and how this would be applied to applications. Similarly the concept plan again substantially the same language that was before the council before lays out and again in a similar fashion the purpose and intent applicability notes that it it the concept review process itself does include specifically the neighborhood meeting idea that we just that staff just spoke about um then lays out a series of of how these meetings and interaction with the public would fit together starting off with that neighborhood meeting then reviewing discussion by the Planning Commission and then ultimately review and discussion by the council at each step kind of building on the opportunity from the grassroots level of the community at that neighborhood meeting and then trying to incorporate that with a structured process from the city's perspective to help inform a potential future application. What I would highlight for you is the the main question that staff believes the council had before was when and how this would apply and so specifically staff heard that the council was concerned that this could apply to potentially individual homeowners who were coming forward with the particular project and so having heard that concern looked looking back through the ordinance and the proposed our current ordinance standards and the way this is structured there are basically a handful of specifically four conditional use permit requirements that are currently in our ordinance and they have to do with daycare facilities earth sheltered homes believe it or not home occupations and um a second potentially offering a second curb cut in a residential setting. Okay so um of the list that our ordinance lays out of where this could apply those four things in staff's opinion are the ones that could potentially impact an individual homeowner the rest of them again in detailed in your staff report really in staff's opinion would be part of a larger scale redevelopment and staff feels are appropriate to initiate at least a discussion with the public about how that potential redevelopment could fit in within the context of an existing neighborhood so um it would be staff's intention at this point that the ordinance is structured in such a way that allows discretion so staff can opt out for those particular applications but I guess with that quick summary I'd be happy to go over more detail of any questions that you have but acknowledging the fact that this is a first reading of the ordinance so with that I'd take questions thank you. **[02:32:30] Mayor Dan Rouser:** Mr. Lindahl just as a point of process in speaking city manager it was suggested that our our standing tradition of just kind of doing a first reading and then reserving comment questions till the second reading isn't really maybe the best way to go about doing it because there's value in offering feedback at this stage so that if there's a need to adjust the ordinance then there's time for staff to do that and not have to be you know doing it on the fly at the second reading so we can we can do that with this one but going forward I think that's a better process it's late people can well stay as late as people need to discuss this so if you want to start with this great I think this one just kind of lays out what we had discussed at length in a couple of work sessions but let's let's take the opportunity to do that for Mr. Lindahl a little bit of feedback so if we need to make changes we can do that for the second reading or tell them great work and move on I mean whatever feedback we got so Council. I was hoping some would just say great work move on but councilmember Edberg. **[02:33:45] Councilmember Steven Edberg:** All right so I have two areas of questioning so the first is when it talks about in section sub one we talk about a gaining feedback directly from the city council and then that's amplified on the next page under C that this follows on the neighborhood meeting what's the setting for that because our practice I'm not a big fan of our past practice of the city council giving direct feedback so what's the setting how does this come to us? Are we all in a room at the same time in a publicly called session are we doing it Tuesday by Tuesday to avoid the elephant meeting law? what's the what's the conversation? **[02:34:30] Jason Lindahl:** mayor members of the council it would be it's the intent of how this is structured currently that this would come before you in a regular meeting similar to what we're doing right now it would be on a section of your agenda like land use discussion so it's distinguished from a a formal application that would come before you and be part of a public hearing. **[02:34:55] Councilmember Steven Edberg:** and similarly that process would also follow with the Planning Commission? **[02:34:58] Jason Lindahl:** well this would the the the intent here is to form some structure for a conversation again that I hope you heard me emphasize before is based in a grassroots level with the the applicant or potential developer talking directly with the community and then once that conversation happens that we have that the cities structure the planning process can then be talked about and again in a more structured way with the Planning Commission and Council because there's going to be some difference between a more casual direct conversation that happens with a community the community and the the informed and structured discussion that the city has when we review something so this is an attempt to blend those things and and try to create a more informed public a better informed process for what the developer could attend could hear from the public if they come forward with a formal application. does that I'm sorry that did I answer your question? **[02:35:55] Councilmember Steven Edberg:** it IT addresses my concern that our previous process gave all the car dealt all the power to the developer to hear all the complaints but the council members didn't get to listen to each other and if there is anything in this new process that permits that to happen I really want to know about it because I don't want to support that so um if we can all hear the same things together know where each other's members are thinking and explore as that I think that is totally fine so I have that one thank you. **[02:36:30] Councilmember Bill Jones:** um I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Edberg on this I know I don't know I believe Mr. Edberg had a problem with the process I don't think he liked the two seats I did not right and I agree with him I liked that there was a process right it was better than nothing I just don't want to see us getting pointed and painted into it has to be in discussion because I if it can be in a study session for something that is larger that's going to take 45 minutes we've had conversations already which I've enjoyed have been back and forth and I my mind has been changed by members of this Council to say hey I get it all right I understand and it's it takes more than 45 or 10 minutes of discussion so I just don't want to paint ourselves I appreciate it that it's out and open though that if it can be put in discussion that's the best place that's my two cents thank you. **[02:37:40] Councilmember Steven Edberg:** Councilmember Edberg two others thank you so at what point in this process we all we live in a relatively small town there are a lot of people to talk to each other when they hear about something happening or they overhear about something happening people start asking questions when is the city government obligated in this process to acknowledge that a project is being considered is that when we first hear about it is that when is it when the developer actually files to hold the public meeting? Because I think having clarity about what we say and when we say it is a really important piece of information what what's the lay of the land for that or is this I actually couldn't find anything that speaks to what we say and when we say it. **[02:38:35] Jason Lindahl:** mayor members of the city council um you know I may defer to the City Attorney on this but it's staff's working understanding in my professional experience that we are obligated to not discuss an application until it is actually physically filed with the community now that it that occurs for a number of reasons but in in certain situations not the least of which could be that the developer um may the the application may not be real until we haven't until we actually have something filed but then there also may be proprietary portions of the application that the that the applicant owns and and speaking before the applicant chooses to file and make those things public could be an issue for the city and so that I believe is the technical answer to your question and I would i guess I would also offer that that's another reason that this process that we're creating creates a a more informal discussion that can happen with the community the Planning Commission and the council but sticks with that fundamental idea that the potential project person the developer or the landowner in this case needs to identify to the city that this is what they want us to do that they want us to talk about it and they want us to talk about this specific thing because the the community could say well I've heard it's going to be X and the next person can say I've heard well it's going to be you know A B and C we could have a lot of different conversations happening and that's why we want to make the developer responsible for defining what the project is and then starting that conversation and it's entirely possible that a member of the community may say why were we not informed about these conversations these explorations one frankly it's not a public matter yet so I accept your if if your technical responses are practiced I'm totally fine with that. Last question so when we think about who gets invited or who gets notified I'm actually going to put this in the context of notice so the two experiences in my ward that went they were not well received and they were not positive public meetings a major element in both of those was that our standard was that people living within 350 feet of a particular development were legally required to be noticed and some of these were like three four five acre developments so they're they're big and what what standards do we have here for deciding determining or recommending who gets to get noticed and invited to the community meeting? **[02:41:40] Jason Lindahl:** so mayor members of the council I think it's important in context for answering your question that there are two different standards that we're talking about here the first standard that you refer to related to 350 feet is a specific statutorily required minimum notification standard for a public hearing as part of a formal application in this case we are we are talking about creating a separate process from that that doesn't specifically says this is not a public hearing and that this is in addition to any of those specific requirements so outside the context of a public hearing we have the the city the council here has discretion as to how we notify people and what those criteria parameters are the draft ordinance that's before you models the public hearing process in the notification of 350 feet because that was what what staff considered was a good basis point for that discussion to this point I staff hasn't heard feedback from the community from this process that another number is better and we certainly can have that discussion if if the council is interested in that and I would just the lastly I would just say we've distinguished we've purposely distinguished from calling this a notice by calling to call it an invitation because it really is different the developer is inviting the community into this conversation this is not a formal City meeting that people are notified of this is an invitation to come take part in a process that the developer is you know the host of so my encouragement is that we ex that we use the discretion available to us both under the the legal statute of a minimum of 350 feet um especially in larger projects so um 350 feet in the context of both of those meetings took in about 14 to 24 houses for multi-acre developments I would suggest that that's an inadequate level of of invitation and that we are better served by encouraging broader now how broad I that's we can have lots of conversation about that but I'm just saying 350 feet for a small development might be fine for a larger development I think we would be wise to air on in by using our discretion for a much larger distance what that is I'll let you chew on. **[02:44:10] Councilmember Heidi Hughes:** I guess I just have a little comment on that I'm not really sure what you're needing by noticing but I sort of feel like some of this stuff can be done by social media and you get out a broad group or you know maybe they have to put something in the newspaper and and to commenting on that even further I don't know how you got the information out about the county E-corridor so it's like can we can we mimic some of that rather than sending letters out and I don't know what your intention is on that but some of it is like posted on NextDoor the 12 people who really want to know will show up and the other people won't and and and there you get it but the more you but the more you make it the more you put it out there that would just be my that would just be my my comment but I guess my other comment would be I'm kind of I sort of feel like a lot of this is in flux until you try it and then you see you see what happens and I just hope we're all flexible enough to come back and discuss it after we do the first one or the second one and kind of figure out what worked what didn't and what requires the statutory change and what maybe we just need to do different next time but that was my only thought on that is that sometimes social media works sometimes I think we should all put it on Twitter um so the uh... tweet... **[02:45:25] Councilmember Steven Edberg:** in the two cases that we have worked it got it worked god-awfully we actually have the capacity to identify properties by distance and mailing addresses and they were sent by by mail and the a substantial number of respondents why didn't I that why wasn't I informed in a formal way they got letters why didn't I and I think it's a very fair question so the randomness of social media is fine do it all but in terms of a formal invitation I think we need more than 350 feet on big projects. **[02:46:00] Mayor Dan Rouser:** Mr. Lindahl does if I remember this correctly in reading it correctly it puts the onus on the applicant to do the noticing is that correct? **[02:46:10] Jason Lindahl:** that that is correct and they pay for it it wouldn't be something that goes on the city's social media site we could you know but mayor members of the council I I I I just want to I just want to acknowledge staff completely agrees that we are in a world where communicating with people either through the mail or electronically is changing and that we would encourage the applicants are the developers in this case to use every medium out there at their disposal to try and help inform that process. mayor members of the council One technical thing in subdivision 5B I just question if the parks advisory commission should be listed there and if they are listed there should the environmental commission be listed? I think it probably should be omitted if you want to read through that typically a proposal would not go to the Parks Commission of this so I would I would recommend striking that from 5B. **[02:47:15] Mayor Dan Rouser:** right we don't need any formal actions and discretion okay anybody got anything else on this we have aired out the first reading and Mr. Lindahl I think you have some feedback July or excuse me January wow hi come July 2024 2023. all right item nine discussion discussion nothing scheduled item 10 Communications from the city manager. Ms. Crawford? **[02:47:45] Lindy Crawford:** thank you mayor just a couple of events if I can get to the next slide please upcoming events so we have a grand opening and ribbon cutting for Factory Direct Mattress on Thursday December 15th at 3:30 pm and then next regular city council meeting is January 10th 2023 at 7 pm here we do not have a second December meeting it so this is our last meeting of the year it's been a it's been a big year for this Council a lot of heavy topics a lot of um change and pivoting if you will so thank you to the city council on behalf of our staff for for being so supportive and and recognizing our needs and then also want to thank our department heads and our finance staff in particular for the hard work put into to the budget it is a labor of love all year long and I really appreciate all that so lastly just happy holidays to everybody yeah after this we do have an HRA meeting once this is adjourned. **[02:48:45] Mayor Dan Rouser:** I with that I entertain a motion to adjourn. **[02:48:50] Councilmember:** Second. **[02:48:51] Mayor Dan Rouser:** all those in favor say aye. (Aye) order the agenda I would like to make one change to it talking about maybe having the meetings just on the first meeting of the year and the last meeting of the year that's it because that's what we did for 2023 just kidding do we want to adopt the agenda do I have a motion all those in favor say all right moving on resolution not waving the monetary limits on Municipal tort liability the exciting one that always happens every year we need an ex-pool mate X yeah do we need to talk about this in depth all right everybody understands this thank you for your support and I really am not being sarcastic at this point all the members of the HRA do I have a motion all those in favor say aye aye all right there we go I didn't even ask for discussion all right resolution approving the decertification of tax increment financing for district number 25 that we just went over momentarily ago is it the same? **[02:49:55] Councilmembers:** yes yes. **[02:49:56] Mayor Dan Rouser:** any discussion? Same thank you Mr. Walsh for your participation all those in favor say aye. (Aye) all right with the excitement of second I'd like to ask for an adjournment we have a motion and a second all those in favor is there any discussion? all those in favor (Aye) meeting is adjourned thank you Merry Christmas everyone [Laughter].