good evening ladies and gentlemen it is now 5:30 and I will call this regular work session of the Burnsville city council to order um our work sessions are very informal and we have a lot of folks in the room so we're going to go around the table and introduce ourselves and then we'll also get the folks on the uh that are here as our guests this evening so we'll start with with you Michelle Collins city clerk Dan Guston city council Vince Workman city council BJ jungman fire department Tanya Schwarz Police Department Jenny roie Finance Bethany bur strategic initiatives qu Dan ke city council Hugo MC Deputy city manager Greg lber city manager and we'll start with you Mr sh of the experience Burnsville and Burnsville res with experience Burnsville Paul ranky with silver work development Joe M Chase real estate of brv uh Ken Francis with car Sanderson construction J Anderson Construction welcome everyone and I'm Elizabeth Couts I'm the mayor of the city and Andrew you just walked in introduce yourself where's your andreil Patrick assistant to the city manager very good um let the record show that uh council member uh uh Cara Schultz is uh absent tonight uh she has um some family things that's going on so and the first I oh first of all I need to let everyone know that um uh this meeting is both in person and online uh people can also join us on Burnsville mn.gov flash meetings or can watch this meeting on Comcast channel 16 or 859 and the public can also participate through Zoom by joining us at zoom. usjoin and more information is available on our meeting web page and in the council agenda packet so the first item on our agenda this evening is the municipal facilities pre-design project update and um city manager Lindberg are you going to tee it up before he goes to uh director of the parks and and Recreation facilities gar back I sure will Madam mayor thank you uh welcome everyone uh tonight's presentation is the culmination of over 14 months of work uh really the last time that we talked about the pre-design municipal facilities project with the council was July of 2022 at that point in time we had brought you uh an update to some space analysis that staff had done over the course of time uh and the direction of the council was to enter into a pre-design phase of uh of the facilities project uh that would really capture all of the information that the council would need to talk about doing Municipal facilities projects right we used the fire station number one project as an example of what doing it right might look like uh to apply the same guiding principles uh to the projects and T what we have in front of you uh which Garrett will kick off for us uh is a presentation of a full report that's available uh both in your packet and uh online um and he will then uh allow uh Brooke and Quinn uh from cnh Architects uh to walk through the specifics of not only the space needs assessment that we've completed uh with the idea uh that we would be designing or creating Municipal facilities for the next 40 plus years uh for police City Hall uh fire station number two so our second fire facility and also our maintenance facility so staff will walk you through that information tonight again uh the full report that cnh and staff have pulled together over that time period uh is available in your packet we also have some other visuals and uh helpful AIDs that are coming around the table right now so uh with that I will turn it over to to Garrett to kick the presentation thank you Greg uh good evening Madame mayor and council members um tonight our project team is here to update you on the work that we have accomplished since we last discussed Municipal facilities in July of 2022 um our agenda for this evening has five components uh we'll start by reviewing our guiding principles which have been a fundamental part of our facility Project work both past and current um we will briefly look at our history which includes the process of how we do facility projects the key takeaways from our 2022 space study and the goals and Direction uh that the project team had for this predesigned project uh you'll hear about tonight our Consultants from cnh and car Anderson are here to take us through the the actual pre-design process and to be able to provide information about uh the details of the cost estimating and then we'll wrap up with uh staff providing information about potential funding options so again as I I mentioned our our guiding principles are really a fundamental part of how we do our facility Project work uh they're reflection of our strategic priorities uh they help guide and inform our project team and how we go about making decisions and if we encounter conflicts along the way uh that's a signal for us to re-engage with our Council to disc discuss what those conflicts are to try to get clear Direction uh and and to better understand what expectations are and how we best move forward so here are those eight guiding principles uh that are part of this particular project we are welcoming to the community sustainable clear communication healthy efficient and effective safe functional and flexible and fiscally responsible and what I'd ask uh or encourage is as our Consultants take us through the design Solutions uh that you look for a the variety of ways that we've really been intentional in incorporating these guiding principles into potential design Solutions so our process uh in an effort to be both efficient and effective and to clearly communicate we do have a process for how we go about doing facility projects um Step One is to really kind of understand you know are there needs and if there are needs what are what what is the scope of those needs and so often in this step we are looking at doing a space study um it really provides some highlevel solutions to to understand and inform staff and counsel if there is a a desire and a need to go deeper uh if that desire does indeed exist uh our city will uh put together a team that involves staff and an architect engineer and a construction man manager to help us uh come up with Solutions in the next steps that follow um so in in that step uh we're here at schematics or pre-design um and in this case we've we've dug deeper uh we're looking to fully understand what those needs are and we're looking to come up with solutions that can potentially meet those needs in the future uh from there if we move to the next step of design that's really about um revising the schematic designs refining them uh developing them with more details and specifications which can ultimately then produce construction documents and then we have the ability to then put those construction documents out to bid and ultimately select a contractor uh and once all those things are in place that allows us to then move into the actual construction phase which involves building uh the project and celebrating at the end so as I mentioned we are in uh step three okay um so the pre-design process uh in this step um that really was our opportunity to to dig deeper and to fully analyze uh what the needs were to make sure that uh any new information since the space study took Place uh could be incorporated into this process um it also involved the need to take a look at whatever Solutions met the needs could those needs actually be delivered on existing sites um and and so that we wanted to make sure that that was a possibility um we heard the need to make sure that any solution that we look to put forward that it would meet 95 to 100% of our known current needs and any future needs that we could foresee and then as mentioned earlier um any project should be a project that we look back on and say yes we did that project right with that um I am going to be introducing our Architects next to take us through the pre-design process if you had the opportunity to uh be a part of the uh the fire station number one project you will recognize um Quinn Hudson and Brooke Jacobs with cnh Architects um I know I can speak for our project team when I say it's been a pleasure to work with them not only on that project which was done right but also um on this project to get us here tonight so with that uh Quinn Brooke thank you and welcome yeah thank you Garrett uh good evening uh Madame mayor and council members thanks for having this opportunity to come and and talk more about the study that uh we have uh looking at tonight um just real briefly uh as you you know recall from past work together C Architects is a um very experienced over 50 years uh working in the South Metro and the Twin Cities area um and we've been you know obviously had a longer term relationship with the city of Burnsville and look forward to doing uh additional uh Municipal design with you as as part of our our leadership in that field so with that I will just dive into uh what we're here to to look look at tonight and okay so we're we're at um this one so uh so first of all so pre-design was you the study that we're looking at and that was an opportunity to really look into uh first uh getting a real strong understanding of the studies that have gone forward previous to this to see what has been learned you know and and the feedback from the studies that that occurred at that time and really become really informed with that um from there we went out and had uh many many meetings uh with uh staff to learn about the large scope aspects working with executive team but as well uh meeting with a lot of the mid-level uh staff uh throughout the Departments to really learn uh what each of the uh departments in the different facilities that we're looking at tonight uh do so there was a lot of inter action learning about that focusing not on just what their current needs are but really starting to look more at and in depth at what what's changing what the future needs are so that we're really trying to to uh get a good understanding of where the facilities are are headed uh you know from that perspective after that we also did uh some tours uh of other uh recent facilities that have been completed in each of the uh project types to kind of just see what is uh been done around Metro to get feedback uh with our team uh and the city staff as to what that was like along with the council members that attended uh from there uh We've also had an opportunity to include a lot of new information uh from the time that the previous study had been done uh there has been two significant additional uh studies that uh the city has completed uh one was a um the operational study of um the facilities uh and um understanding and what that organizational analysis uh would be and the second major one was u a u study on the police staffing needs that really uh Dove a lot deeper into what current needs are and what future needs will be uh within that department and both of those were very helpful in building a better understanding of where uh this project is uh going what the needs of the city are and and really ident ify those is part of the goals of this study and of course as we talked about before our last step was uh incorporating the direction that we heard and were given from city council to make sure that we're looking forward and that we're doing it right and really that we're providing solutions that will uh serve the city for that 30 to 40 year uh goal that we're looking at uh you know for this process so with that um this next slide shows really what we learned and a significant part of what came out of that just in the size and square footage so this is a a comparison of uh the uh different facilities that we're looking at as part of the study and it evaluated first knowing the existing square footage but in second what the initial study that had been done prior to uh our work here uh had shown and really what did we learn from the meetings with with the staff from the studies that were done during this process and really identify what are the needs uh and where does that that really lead for this future in this predesign study with that you can see first of all that um in the predesign column the third one over that under the police um Department's uh needs we're looking at really 110,000 Square ft uh plus as the uh as what they need to uh operate now and into the future and that that was a significant increase in size from the previous previous study uh and I as mentioned I think that really came a lot out of the staffing needs study and that goal to really look to make sure we're meeting the long-term needs so next one down is City Hall uh that one we're showing a little over 999,000 square feet of needed space to meet the uh long-term needs of of City Hall um and that's uh up uh also and I think a lot of that also came out of the organizational study and just the time really digging deeper than the previous study was intended to dig so with that uh you we have uh significant new numbers on that uh predesign in the maintenance column uh is showing a uh space needs of 1728 uh so almost 173,000 Square ft um that is up just a bit a little bit under 13,000 Square ft from the previous study so that that one there uh the information was uh closer to the goals and and there the new new organizational studies didn't show as much of a significant change in growth um and then the fire fire station two the final category in that one uh shows a uh square footage need of 4,545 so uh um that's up uh about uh just under 6,000 square ft from the previous study and that came mostly out of uh the experience that the fire department has had in the last year or so uh with significant uh increase in call volume in that part of the city and that uh need to be addressed in in looking forward uh to the the needs of of a second station with that we'll move on to uh the actual each facility I'm going to start with the city hall Police Department facility uh and kind of talk a bit about uh that um part of the study and then move into the other buildings but starting with that our first slide shows um and starting on the leftand side that map there is the existing uh site and one of our things that we uh really uh learned a lot about and spent a lot of time investigating uh at the beginning of the study was what are some of the constraints that really impact this this combined City Hall police uh Department site uh first of all in the blue the dark blue areas are the existing uh storm water ponds and kind of somewhat full state but that that are are around the site so there's the major one on the U lower right and then the upper two uh on upper upper right and and mid mid uh left uh upper part so those are the existing ones in normal storm water uh flow but as we learned the this site is part of much larger Regional ponding uh storm water system and so the a the neighborhoods to the South flow through here and uh as it on its way onto other areas so the second color we have uh is the um light blue and that um shows the rainwater levels under 100-year rain event obviously uh as we experience we know we've hit those in the last you know handful of years and they they come way more often than and once 100 year and uh so you as you can see that really impacts that whole back portion of the site um so with that the uh we knew that we needed to avoid those areas as we looked at how to expand these facilities the last constraint I want to point out is the kind of gold area to the middle left of the plan and that area um is some significant um utility infrastructure for the pump uh lift station and that in that part of the building and and the site excuse me and you know it's also something we we're looking at trying to avoid so with that we started looking at what what are we looking at to potentially provide the additional square footage that the uh uh space needs analysis portion of our study identified and so the plan on the on the right hand side of the screen is a conceptual uh site plan that shows the existing building down the middle portion and then uh additions that are avoiding that storm water area because if any impact we do that storm water area we have to Res because that's area that is needed uh to respond to that Regional storm events so with that the additions happen around the uh uh front and back of the police uh um area the store the garage around the outside and then on the city hall side there's a significant addition that is moving out into what the parking lot current currently exists um other things to kind of quickly point out is the parking is shown on the on the front has been realigned to address uh you know the changes in the building additional parking is picked up in other ways and so the parking shown would meet the uh day-to-day needs of the city hall and police department uh we also have a clarified the the access to uh trash and deliveries for the uh um City Hall uh police department with an entrance off the north uh street so that we're not going through the secure portion of the police uh yard to get to trash and deliveries uh to clean up that security aspect um and then there's also opportunities of having some drop off and Plaza at the new front of the building so we're looking at at ways to create welcoming uh process through through that entrance area we are now moving into the actual floor plans this is an overall floor plan of the upper level uh of uh the city hall police department and a couple things I'd like to to point out at this level and then we'll get into blowup plans that we can see in larger format but first of all the colors uh that are represented here um I'll start with blue uh and the police uh department and I I I'll mention that throughout the process of the study in the predesign study related to uh the city hall police uh site we were looking at starting with uh the needs of the police department because we knew those would expand out and around and and needed to expand into City Hall and so with that we we were starting with those needs and then we would work around the rest of the needs for the site um mostly want to and so that's the blue in the the red tone uh we have the city Staff office areas and that's what's showing up to those areas and then the green is public areas and that's something we'll talk more about but significantly we've uh located all the the uh major public interface area of City Hall uh on the upper level in that green shown there we'll look at specifically what's what's located in that in a minute the last thing I want to point out um and it's maybe a littleit hard to see on the screen here um but is there's there's a red dash line that surrounds the current outline of City Hall so that'll show up in the future slides as well but that gives you something to compare to so you can identify where the additions start and and uh the different aspects of that so with that we'll look in a little bit closer so this blows up the upper level uh the police office portion uh of the design you can start to see the outline of the of the red uh boundary uh a little better there and identify that you know that there's some addition out to the to the right side of the site and some to the left as well as some uh of the police moving up into City Hall overall um there is over 14,000 ft of police department department needs that are shown needing to move into City Hall um portions of the building so that's a significant impact on uh the design and layout of City Hall as well so um with that I will kind of go into a little bit another thing we I think we'd learned from the uh the staffing needs analysis that was done for the police was and and through our study was that really all the Departments and all uh within um the police department needed expansions so we couldn't just add on some piece in one spot and take care of all the needs without totally disrupting flow operations and connectivity of the other portions of the of that so with that we've we've looked for ways to expand in multiple areas around the existing City uh the police department uh area so that we can best meet uh the operational needs within the the uh new facility so with that we've expanded departments throughout that upper level there's a new entry on the right hand side uh for the public area and and then just general expansion throughout uh the other areas and like I said up into the city hall as well uh this next level is the uh parking area so this shows uh an significant need in expanded um uh patrol car parking that it's identified early on that there's a significant additional need of parking the existing one that is being outlined there um uh shows what areas already have parking and then around that to the left and the bottom of the screen is new parking one of the things that we looked at within this process on how we positioned this was uh this alignment allowed us to um expand the parking while keeping the majority of the existing building in place and operational and and workable um the left and right red lines are the exterior walls those can stay uh only thing we need to do to make this function is to take the non-bearing um bottom wall off of of the parking and expand through that so that was an efficiency that was able to be realized in the design process okay um so this portion shows the uh City Hall portions of uh the facility and how that expansion works again you can see some of the blue coming up into City Hall which is again the police functions the red is staff and the green is is the public areas I'm going to start with public and just talk a little bit about some of our focus on how that uh is placed and what we're trying our goals and that we're looking to achieve with that uh first of all there is a a linear uh uh lobby area with a prominent front entry uh with that we wanted to make a very clear uh opportunity for the the those visiting City Hall and police uh areas to understand where the entrance is and how how the flow goes through that as you enter with this Lobby that extends along the um front to the back portions allowing for service desk reception desk uh on the leftand side and some other support conference rooms things like that and then on the right hand side we're picking up conference rooms uh new console Chambers uh which is shown uh there up in the upper middle there and uh large meeting rooms uh in the bottom front area with placing those uh elements in the front like that it became a very connected welcoming element uh we wanted them not only to as people come have quick visibility to reception but also have a good view right off towards the council chamber so they're feel welcome to events that are occurring in here um so we're providing a lot of different support elements through that around council chambers uh as well as support areas around the large meeting room in front uh yeah and both of those have nice views out the council would have a side view out over the pond and back and the front would have uh meeting rooms would have view out into the uh Lobby uh this me the patio out front and and the entrance parking so so that was a major focus on how we orientated this the piece uh to the left the the red ction is really the police offices uh excuse me City Hall offices and that is being uh positioned with different departments around and there was a lot of thought put into where the different departments are located with the idea that uh those that have a lot of inter uh face are located in similar areas and that they would then um uh connect with each other as well as uh the Departments that have more interface with the public would have a closer uh connection to the uh Lobby spine uh through that site for counter areas in addition one other thing I'd like to point out in this opportunity was a center resource area where the arrow is there uh that really is an opportunity to connect all the different departments in a resource Library uh Gathering uh collaboration opportunity and so that was something that we really wanted to make very Central to all the staff area in that process so uh now I'm going to move on to the lower level this is an overall plan of the lower level Quinn yeah before you continue can you talk about the green on the upper level because I think that's important that big space and that's because it's a public space absolutely I can go through much more detail and be glad to uh so if we start down at the entry vestibule uh as you're coming in uh the first thing off to the to the left side is reception and we put position that in a in a spot where you can have very direct uh view uh from the entry for both the visitor as well as for the staff that is coming so they can have uh you know that that eye to eye contact that can welcome them in give them Direction help guide them down around that area um as you come down the left side of that uh Main Lobby spine uh there the first areas there are some of the service counters as you can see that they're attaching then there's a general conference room that's used for planning and other uh you know common connections with uh City staff and public and then uh as we move back there's a significant um larger conference area there uh we're calling kind of the Fireside family room uh it's really a very casual uh you feeling Gathering space but has a lot of functions that would uh support the uh both staff and the city one of the examples would be early voting uh would be a good space to be in there but uh it could even be um workshops like this could occur in that space or U or just larger trainings as well as we're in the back uh and we you know across the uh lobby area there we start to pick up a few of the additional conference rooms so that we have plenty of opportunities to uh be able to meet and and uh not be overbooked with conference space which is certainly a current issue um and then as we come down there's bathrooms support areas in in that Center corter uh a um and then you know and then a special uh conference area for the council as well as a major Council chamber uh through that area there our goal there was to have a very open Council chamber you'll see in some of the images we go later on so that there's a lot of Glass on the south side or excuse me on the left side and and uh even the opportunity potentially to open up uh the the glass wall and have overflow opportunities uh out of that from the other side of that there's also a a Lobby that um uh could be outside of uh you know kind of a pre-entry Lobby to the console Chambers uh for pre-events or for like I said overflow or art displays or other activities some just a flex area that really help support the use of that space and then in more detail uh there's the the three large meeting rooms at the bottom uh they're dividable open UPS you can have a variety of events both City based or or public uh events in in those um those rooms along with some uh catering capabilities um so thank you for bringing that up ask one followup I want to get too far down the rabbit hole and specifics but does this um include the Jay's control room as we have right now um close to the chambers or is that separate separated from the control room like where we've got our our yeah it is right adjacent to uh Chambers in that area Okay absolutely thank you any other questions and feel free to to ask any anytime I I want to make sure that our residents who are watching uh Quinn understand what it is that we're doing because City Hall is the Public's house right and I want to make sure that they understand that there are space here for what uh the public needs and that was a very important part of our our design process and the goals that we had set as a you know a design team along with the staff was to really make it a welcoming functional um you know um easy to use space for the public uh the uh and that's that's part of why all of the public spaces are up on the main floor right off the entry uh with visibility to the parking lot things like that so that that can all be a very straightforward and welcoming comfortable uh process you know for the the public that are using it thank you moving on to the lower level of the police and and uh City Hall uh as you see we're all blue and red on this level again as I had just mentioned there's no public green areas on this this level uh it's really meant to be uh mostly staff um starting with police as we have been doing throughout this design process we looked at what the the space needs were for the police department and would expand into the existing City Hall as needed to meet their needs and then work from that point um the red line as before outlines the current lower level of both buildings uh and there's significant addition uh to the right hand side of police and that is a u rifle practice range uh that's something that uh was identified as not only a training requirement that they have but something that would provide value uh to the police department overall as and so that was uh added in this uh part of the study as well in addition that space can be used for other types of training uh uh and scenarios that they can set up in that space being a larger open space uh the middle part of of the lower level in in the police department s is mostly gray area meaning that is that in our terminology there there are areas that did not need to be uh remodeled in significant ways there might be some finish upgrades and some minor things but mostly those spaces are working well as they are and um you know can uh be left in the positions uh and the last uh the other addition we have on this is the uh small piece tucked under the upper parking uh for a SWAT vehicle garage uh area through there and then as you can see going back up into city hall there's a significant amount of the police department in the blue coming into the city hall portions of the building so it's uh it definitely showed that um in this process that we meaning the police needs meant that we had to impact City Hall significantly in a way that we would definitely have to expand City Hall as well to meet all the needs or it wouldn't be possible um so with that uh let me walk a little bit through the red staff areas um in this upper area um and maybe well let me catch some of the blue um areas in there as well I'm sorry the uh expanding into the the lower level of the city hall uh portions for police is Fitness as well as uh defensive uh tactical training you know a mat room in essence and other scenario type rooms as well as storage you're on the overall on the overall on Advance oh um yeah and we'll and as Brook's poting out we'll see better and the blowups so maybe I'll I'll save more of the individual descriptions till we get to that so with that let's move on to the blowups so we'll be able to see a lot easier um so again uh we talked about seat spaces you can see a little bit better the outline of the existing building uh and the you know the two additions on the right for the rifle range on on the left so that okay moving on to the next one and this will be a little easier to see so this this enlarged plan shows um you know the amount of police into the city hall portions of the building uh we have Fitness as I mentioned the defens trtic train tactical training as well as a um a lot of storage and other support spaces within that as we move from that the other areas that are in moving into the red for the um staff portions of uh this portion of the lower level uh we really have mostly support elements down in this level uh with two two departments uh uh the facilities and uh it would be in this areas and those are both positioned in the back portions with lots of lights and window in the areas that are currently offices uh or or meeting rooms in that area so in that those areas through there after that uh as we come around um we're looking at having additional conference rooms uh that can be used by staff they they you the staff could bring public down to that but that would be on invitation uh for a special meeting if uh uh the need was such from the upper level we also have uh the um break areas for for staff Wellness more Fitness um you know just this additional staff support and and and well-being uh spaces within that portion of the building um on the uh left side of of the lower left side through there uh is uh more storage uh some of it's more dedicated longer term storage uh you kind of at the angle portion is some um voting storage secure areas uh in that areas up to there um so we're kind of taking advantage of the inner portions of that lower level where uh is harder to comine to use for storage areas and our final element in the lower level is a uh basement uh parking uh garage area for the city-owned vehicles that are not police vehicles these are are um from the rest of the city hall departments so Building Inspections um uh it Communications and a variety of other uh uh vehicles that are currently mostly either uh arounded other buildings or mostly uh just parked out in the parking lot all the time out in the cold weather um and and with the implications of that for the durability of the equipment so with that uh that kind of rounds out the lower level of this yep Dan question how many parking spaces are there so we currently yeah in the um Cityside staff garage we currently have planned for about 25 spaces there's room for several more uh but we know of 25 vehicles at this time and then there's several areas of storage too it was noted by a resident that a lot of the parking spaces in front of our building are taken up by City vehicles and with City vehicles um right you noted that some of those Vehicles might be parked in other locations but they might be relocated here yeah um it would be helpful to know how many spaces would be pres preserved for visit visitors in our exterior prti lot by utilizing this downstairs basement yeah that's hinting at I don't know if we know the exact number of of stalls out the front Council the simple answer would be anything that's currently external or in the parking lot there's space plus room to grow in the interior parking so we would be taking all City Vehicles putting them inside which would open up parking space for the public uh on Surface lots and also from our perspective likely prolong the life and well-being of those Vehicles yeah other parking question do we have um based on the new schematic how many spaces do we have today out front and how many will we have in the new redesign parking lot see I know I do have that so um the so for your existing parking stall so for General parking there's 134 stalls the secure parking for police um outside there's 43 stalls just the I'm just speaking of the the Lots in front visit 134 stalls 134 total out for total out front yep and then in the new design um we have 118 so we're a little bit less but we're also taking away um all of the city staff and moving them inside yeah for the but I also saw that we also you'll just have to cross Civic Center Park for addition parking are and that there is a a a walkway no different than theal has yeah and I believe in that 118 we're counting that um parking lot that's directly across but there's additional parking beyond that but we just counted that kind of initial lot across the street in that count in the 134 you're saying in the 118 or 118 for the new design you're including spots across Civic Center yeah just that initial lot where we have that right yeah right through there that greig's pointing to okay what do we have on the near side of civic center yeah how many are we going to have in that design in those two spots or those two parking lots I think we were in the somewhere in the 80s I don't have that specific quantity okay so we are we are going to lose some convenience for our uh residents to come to City Hall from the standpoint some will have to park across the street and walk where today they may or may not have to do that sometimes they do because there's a lot of spots being taken up by city but net net we're going to lose spots thank you one of the things that I would add May in Council is is the design obviously takes City Hall and and pushes it quite considerably uh into the parking area to your point council member key uh the idea to to Brook's uh uh comments uh would be to make a a much more accessible pedestrian friendly experience across Civic Center uh that opens us up to the complete redesign of the Ice Arena Circle garage parking lot that was put put on pause for this project but that connection would be far more convenient across C Civic Center and uh it's a it's a direct entrance into the the spine of the building uh that Quinn had talked about so in our conversations well the existing parking lot comes closer to City Hall City Hall itself pulls into those parking lots uh so the access across Civic Center we feel would be a much more pedestrian friendly and intentional experience to kind of integrate campus parking as opposed to being separated Yeah by Civic Center okay thank you okay we'll move one more here so now we get the opportunity to um really start to look at what some of these uh impacts of the additions might uh look like now again these are early schematic designs so the this is an idea of what uh uh the city hall Police Department front entries could look like um but it's not something that's final there's certainly plenty of opportunity to have feedback and make adjustments as we move along but our goal in doing this was first of all to consider that experience making it welcoming having a lot of daylight um and and yet having a an image that was contemporary yet dignified something that was more Timeless not something that would uh either quickly look uh aged or uh or trendy uh that was some of the important things that we felt was was critical for uh the uh image of City Hall so as you're looking at this so this is a a a rendering in black and white without we hav you know pick specific materials just to to look at it but a rendering of the front entry uh Court area the larger uh open Tower portion is the new uh front entry uh that's about a story and a half you can see it has clear story glass that goes back through that Lobby spine so there's a lot of daylight all the way through the center of the uh the public portions of City Hall and it's very clear that that's the front entry um and then as we move to the right you can see that there are uh some big open windows that has more to do with uh you know the the meeting rooms the large three meeting rooms on that side and some opportunity to open up the two Plaza in front of that and then as we move to the left there's offices and then the secondary entrance would be the entrance for the police uh Department it's still important to be able to identify uh that entrance uh certainly there's plenty of of uh guests that come to uh you know go to the police department and we want to make that clear obviously we're not showing signage or any other wave finding that would also be part of any project but we're trying to identify that in this in just the massing and the image of of that U uh look okay with that we'll move inside so uh in here we have two images and all the images we're going to have on the inside are really down that main public uh lobby area so the first one at the top of this screen is is kind of standing just inside the vestibule as a guest comes in they would be able to immediately see the welcome desk the reception area and and it's you know as I say it was it's a direct facing towards the entry uh so there's that that connection yeah as you move down looking at uh either uh the lower uh image we start to see that there are service counters that would happen along this other opportunities for staff and and public to uh interface and and uh uh and answer questions and and and do uh the business that the uh guest is here for um and then at the far end of that lower image is getting down to that uh area right out outside of the fireplace uh room that that meaning uh area at the end uh you can see a suggestion of a fireplace that' be two-sided in that that location as well as going further down the end uh to just some glass that looks out into the woods and the lower Pond below so it's really trying to create a connection through invite the uh guests into the lobby and provide clear uh circulation throughout that area the next image is again on the lobby the first uh one at the top is uh that view just inside the VES so as you come in you come through the vesu you look down and you can see all the organization just to the left off the image is that reception desk and then we can start to see service counters and the end down there you can also see right away as you're coming in to the right is that pre- Lobby and the area going into the console Chambers so that again is very visible right from the bestville so you have that that connection for the guest that is is is headed to a meeting uh at that location the lower image is coming in just uh you know a ways into that Lobby and turning a little bit and looking more directly at the outer wall and that pre Gathering area outside the council area so you can see the council uh chamber we suggesting uh with the a lot of Glass on the back side uh potential to be able to open that up for the right events overflow receptions whatever might be uh appropriate and then also want to point out that on the back side of that you can see through the windows that there are windows to the outside on the side of the chambers that would allow views again down into the storm water you know Pond as well as out into the woods providing daylight and openness but at a safe Second Story level so uh and then it heads on down towards the public meeting rooms from there so um with that I think that's the um last slide on the city hall and police any questions on E either of the parts of this facility before I move on okay uh the next uh part of the study was a land analysis for fire station two um so the uh goal of this study was really to look at uh sight fits uh evaluate response times uh look for operational efficiencies Effectiveness and what's what's working well for the fire department uh in the site and look at at different properties I'll start at the top looking at site fits we identified with the city staff three potential sites for Station 2 two of which were uh privately uh held and one of which was a a city held property we looked at uh each of those sites for functionality for the fire uh operations and in the uh station on that site uh we narrowed from there uh one of the public health sites was particularly steep had a lot of U built-in grading costs and retaining walls and and and just a size of the site was uh much larger than was needed so the cost of that became a concern uh for that site the second uh site that we uh um uh eliminated in that review process uh was one that uh was you know definitely flatter and better situated except the traffic aspect of that one there was real concerns with some traffic back flows that would have potentially imp negatively impacted response times so with that we really um you know came to the third site that that we'll be looking at uh in the next site and as it mentioned that's an existing City owned site and as it says at the bottom it's part of uh cross toown East Park so what we're looking at is a portion of Cross Town East uh it's the lower um uh South East piece of it there currently is a it's a it's a lower develops uh Park there's a small playground and a bunch of green space and in the middle of Green Space there's a bit of a public garden so there's not a lot of development on the site uh and uh so that was uh just something to be aware of the size of the site was a good fit uh as you can see we're showing the appropriate size fire station on that the red portion would be the apparatus Bay portions and that and support for that the blue portions would be a two-story um lower level being admin uh you know the day-to-day operation portions of the uh uh daytime operations and their proportions would be um uh residence areas so it fits well the site faces um um brinville Parkway and it has a good response uh from that area and uh there's plenty of room for return areas and and other things as you also know there's still plenty of green space on this site so there's there's opportunities to look at uh providing additional uh public um benefits uh opportunities you know whether it's recreating some of the uh uh Public Gardens that are on the area play or other elements that there's certainly an opportunity to um share the site with some of the other functions that would be there so so with that study um you know resulted that we felt this was a good fit uh for a Station 2 site uh it met the operational needs it was the right size uh grading all those elements so that was the recommendation of the study any questions on this facility uh this this was just a site analysis uh uh not uh the same uh aspect of design as the other ones so okay with that I'll move on to the maintenance facility much like the other facilities we uh did all the the Gathering of information the previous studies information meeting with a lot of the staff and evaluating uh the needs of that site uh when we started looking into the site constructibility aspects uh one of the first things we we learned was that the whole left portion of the site everything to the to the left side of the uh white buildings there uh is a easement uh for Dakota Electric it's kind of based on the substation and some overhead lines that they have right in that area uh through there so that was made it clear that any expansion that was necessary for uh the um uh maintenance center would need to uh be to the north and to the South because those were really the are that were cons constrained uh I will mention that U throughout this process and I should you know maybe go back and mention it also for City Hall and police part of our analysis that that the functions we needed to fit uh to make this a long-term um successful uh project for the city meaning that 95 to 100% of the uh the needs uh both now and into the future were we were evaluating did that work on the site that we had um with that uh going back obviously a city hall that did uh and there was room to make that work maintenance facility that also worked that was part of our determination but the point thing I do want to point out this truly maximizes the site uh at the end of this expansion were that to occur there really is no additional expansion on this site capable we did talk about that uh you know it does meet our current and long-term needs so we're talking 30 40 years we're not concerned in that that sense but if there was a need uh for growth that's not foreseen at this time there is uh some departments within that facility that could potentially be spun off to other locations without impacting the day-to-day operations there so just letting you know we evaluate that as well um just overall you can see you know again the the main buildings in the center the additions are above and below to the top uh of the U additions there is a inra is a new fueling Island and then further up is some salt storage on the site now move into the overall floor plan a question sorry we just had a uh um what do you call hazardous waste drop off day at our facility I'm just curious with this expansion are we still going to be able to facilitate having something like that cuz it seems like a lot of that parking lot area that's normally got all kinds of bins and stuff is going to be part of the new building right over on the West Side M members of the council I would uh would hold on to that question for a little while because it sounds like most other cities in the county are going away from those kinds of pickups to have um they're looking at some additional facilities that are open outside of just one in the county so there might be some Alternatives so we might not have as big of a event at once so it might not be as big of an issue but that's just there's nothing confirmed that at this point but it sounds like the county might be looking to go in a different direction than kind of these larger pickup or larger events and having a more fixed facility cool okay it's a partnership so we'll have to wait and see what the other partners because uh Apple Valley and Lakeville are also part of an Egan I believe yeah yep cool anything else okay thank you um as before this is an overall floor plan and we will have some blowups as well but uh what this shows in in the colors uh blue is uh vehicle storage or vehicle repair um so that's the those areas the red as before is Staff areas and then green is um the uh public areas and one thing I do want to point out at the maintenance facility uh that is a significant shortfall of the current facility there is no real public uh area within the building uh there's no security separating the public area and staff um it it's really something that is uh a strong goal of the uh the study was to provide those uh functions so again um the red outline as before uh shows the existing outline of the building um I will mention I catch it here that to uh one of the things we looked at to provide the amount of storage that were showing up in the upper blue uh to to fit all the uh Public Works vehicles and again this is just the public city- owned Public Works Vehicles there is no uh staff parking inside this is all the vehicles that you um that you you own and operate for the public uh maintenance facility uh operations and so to fit them all in and to expand we did determine that we needed to uh demo the last Bay of the existing facility and rebuild that because of the Ang and the shape of that uh that bay you can see that comes across and angles up uh that uh we tried a bunch of options and and everyone fell short of meeting the needs uh because there just was not a way to efficiently put the parking stalls in with this expansion that was accomplished so let's look little bit closer yep so does this anticipate new vehicles or is this this current load for what we currently have as far as vehicle storage this does include new vehicles that were projected for Public Works uh and maintenance so it it uh does allow that and the goal it was to look at something that would last that 30 to 40 year projected area so so this current plan the extension considers for the most part the inventory of vehicles that we currently have now mayor and Council to to clarify yes we believe that this meets our 30 to 40 year needs uh however the maintenance function uh is spread across the community more so than in our current operations more so than police as a as an example uh so well this does meet our our 30 plus year needs I think the important point that Quinn has already made this is the most constrained site uh so we recognize as as an example that the use of the current Circle garage the old maintenance facility as an example is an important part of our infrastructure to make sure that we can continue Public Works public maintenance operations into the future uh I would also add that that maintenance Public Works is is one of the areas of the organization that that we've identified certainly more recently that's in need of additional strategic and operational assessment so uh well I'm confident that it meets those longer term needs right now uh the question still exist will our operations change as the department evolves and meets the standards that that we've Set operationally uh moving forward uh so that would be there's still some unanswered questions in my mind on this particular project if if there's one project that that has some additional operational questions it's this one uh but it does meet uh the same criteria uh across the other facilities 30 to 40 your needs um considering all other operational factors one of which in maintenance is that we currently have uh pars maintenance as an example part of that operation is out of alam magnet um we currently operate part of our operation out of the circle garage those are those are still assumed Med realities uh and something that the department has agreed are is an important piece of their operation so again not to pick on police but part of the conversation in the police City Hall project was uh it was uh without reservation that the police department felt strongly that we maintain a a core facility one facility for that operation that the police department has one home um that was different in the conversation with maintenance we we very much recognized that uh potentially uh having various sites across the community was more operationally benefit for beneficial for us so it certainly does reflect that reality so I guess where I was going thank you Greg um is are we fitting that inventory that's expected to go into this expansion in the current space we have now because we're almost doubling the footprint but Council we use a lot of external storage or other Solutions right now where this would help us particularly to centralize some of the core operations to make what I would say would be more operationally beneficial decisions about how we might use secondary spaces around the community to support the operation so this is kind of gathering Gathering our outliers and getting everything into one Central spot by doing that's a great way of putting it okay great council member Workman if I may um one of you know one of our guiding principles is is safety um and in this particular facility and maybe Quinn and Brooke can speak to it a little bit more but um parks and Fleet Maintenance vehicles have grown over the years and the industry standards for parking spaces and spaces in between them have also changed um so this is a reflection of the appropriate size parking spaces which reduces the amount of door dings and improves Safety Stand you know we saw that in the fire department when we went through that project right the engines grew in size the space between them was smaller than recommended and whatnot and so some of this growth is purely just a result of right sizing the parking spaces and yeah and several of the vehicles are currently being parked outside I don't have a specific number but so they're outside all year long instead of being housed inside so the maintenance and and damage that can occur in inclement weather they're subject to at this time are our oversized Vehicles being stored inside like our plows and dumps and everything those are currently in the garage right mayor and Council that is correct okay thank you for that clarification okay Quin okay thank you okay uh moving on to looking at the enlarged plans uh this shows the office uh and and in the red and the green area is entry let me start with the green so what we are providing here is an opportunity for a more visible direct entry with the vestibule and then coming into a Lobby there would be reception desks and space off of that of course welcoming uh the guest uh you know to the uh maintenance facility but it would be in a more secure operational right now you walk in uh you're right at everybody's desk there's no real control at all um so we providing for that we also have a conference room and then a large meeting room uh that that could be could be part of of public access the large meeting room also would be meeting needs of the day-to-day operations of the maintenance facility as with the conference room but it is designed in a way that we could lock off and and and provide uh access to public events uh public meetings on City you know Street projects things like that that could happen there um you know so we're having an opportunity to to uh create that uh functional space for that um from that moving into the staff areas uh probably the thing that we we learned the the most in in uh their shortfall of of space in the in the office portions of uh the maintenance facility is meeting space for their traditional morning organizational meeting for each within each uh Department within maintenance uh that's a standard uh meeting process and right now uh all they have the only larger meeting room they have is really their their lunchroom and so that's not really meeting all their needs they have different groups they have different you know meetings at the same time and it's important for them to to start their day with their assignments to uh kick off with that meeting some people some of the groups now meet right in the uh the vehicle base uh which is not a healthy place for them to be but it's what they're left with at the moment so with that we're providing larger uh meeting areas for them to to gather around the outside edges of each department uh to have that morning kickoff meeting and any other meetings that they have from that we're we're just kind of reorganizing some of the office spaces making uh them work together in uh Department uh sense and that's what created uh the need for uh some additional space uh on the bottom so there there's a small addition for office uh that's at the bottom of the of this plan uh to the right hand blue uh is mostly the maintenance uh Bays um yes there' be some upgrades in that but mostly those are fine as as they exist the far right Bay is currently a wash area that would become another service Bay but that's probably the only uh major change in that portion of the building okay we move into the the uh vehicle areas um we've talked a lot about this already uh but this really lays out all the different Siz Vehicles the flow giving them opportunity to pull through on the largest vehicles uh to allow safety uh and not backing out of uh some of those bigger stalls and um and as I you know mentioned to uh you know meet those needs uh for all those bays at the top of this plan there is a driveth through vehicle wash this is a vehicle wash sized and intended for maintenance equipment uh that is kind uh really the uh industry standard for new facilities is to have that currently uh vehicles are washed within the areas uh with the water you know going around all the the areas and and it's much more labor intensive and frankly doesn't do as good a job as as this Arch would with undercarriage control and things like that so that's our our our piece up in the top is that drive- through wash bay so so I should probably ask if there's any other questions on maintenance before we move on to uh next slide car sure um thank you so the this next slide is really just a um it provides the timelines for any one of these individual projects so uh what you're seeing here is really the actual construction time so if we were to pursue a city hall police remodel renovation and expansion uh a project like that would really need to occur in three stages where we'd be looking to construct the new spaces uh initially in rough format to allow uh our Police Department to move into those new spaces and use those while the police spaces were being renovated and expanded um after that would happen you would move police into their new space move City Hall staff uh out of their existing space into that newly constructed community space again renovate that area and then once that was complete then you would finalize that new space and the project would be complete uh that would take approximately 32 months to complete those three stages and uh just to be clear this is this is construction time so this doesn't involve the planning process and and things like that which uh could be nine months to a year uh to do as well when we look at the fire station 2 project uh we have a good feeling on how long something like that would take because uh we've just completed one not too long ago so feel pretty confident about a 16-month process for that construction piece again a planning process is not included in that 16 months um but we would that would probably be a little shorter uh than the typical planning process since we've been through that recently and then a maintenance facility Remodel and renovation is approximately a 12 month construction project okay I'm uh going to talk a little bit about cost estimating and uh the process and where we're at and then share some pricing um first of all as a reminder um the uh the designs that we're showing and the costs that that are represented by that are really uh had that opportunity to look at more than just a a square foot study this was a uh opportunity to actually have schematic design plans images to get a much closer ability to understand understand what that uh that goal is and the ability to know that in the the approach we're doing is doing it right that we're including all the elements that uh we see uh current and future needs and we're doing it in a way that would uh serve the city in the longer term uh process and and meeting The Guiding principles as well through that process as we look at numbers uh we'll be showing Uh current as well as future numbers uh and in that process we use a 4% uh inflation Factor year-over-year uh that's kind of an industry standard when we're looking at many years uh in a group uh obviously that isn't representative of any one specific year in fact as the next uh item there notes you can look at 2021 and 22 where we experienced very high uh construction cost inflation uh rates um but when you start looking at 10 20 year uh numbers that it does come back to that that average of the 4% that we typically see over that time um the other thing that we want to point out in in you know talking about costs that uh clearly um the most economical projects occur on existing properties and uh both existing land or when appropriate existing um uh facilities and that's partly because of of uh as long as the goals can be met in those facilities with the remodel process uh remodeling is is a lower cost than uh new construction and those are some of the numbers if we've seen the next two lines on average this is across all the projects but on average remodeling was coming up at being around $218 a square foot uh where new constructions $340 again on average across the the the three projects we're talking about today and so uh with that you can see there's significant savings uh when existing facilities can be reused and uh uh remodeled to meet that long-term need so with that uh we come to the actual uh prices and where they came in through this study uh we have the three facilities uh the police City Hall facility Fire Station 2 and maintenance the 2024 um column there is the numbers that were uh estimated by cruss Anderson who's here tonight if there's any specific questions feel free but they spent a lot of time uh developing accurate numbers using uh unit takeoffs of actual materials from the plants they weren't just doing square foot costs so with that uh the first number to look at in the 2024 column is the police City Hall number uh so with the greatly increased size uh of the space needs uh that construction would be 93 uh and almost a half uh million dollars at this time so a significant increase uh from previous but looking at the square footages that represents an appropriate new uh Target for that uh project looking on Fire Station 2 uh that's a uh $25 million project uh again uh as you recall from Fire Station 1 that's definitely a different number than we had back then that's been enough years that the those inflation numbers have made that impact uh these numbers also are total project they're the hard cost of the facility and soft cost as well so and then our third uh number there in 2024 is for the maintenance facility uh at 54 million a little bit over that uh so those numbers then are inflated out so you can see depending on uh when a project was to start what the potential cost would be uh for those individual projects up through 2033 so with that I'll pass it off all right um I'll just touch a little bit on funding tonight um as as we looked at what possible funding paths um there were we've been working with our Financial Consultant and come up with some um preliminary paths um certainly projects projects of those uh magnitude would would require the city to bond but we've um determined some preliminary funding um path for that for that debt service and um based on Council direction we're prepared to come back and present a more in-depth analysis of what those three options are we've looked at um a property tax levy only a franchise fee only or a combination of property tax and franchise fees um to support The Debt Service um on on a POS possible Bond issuance for these projects um as as we go forward that would be um something staff would be prepared to come back and do an in-depth um in-depth presentation on that in November um that would also include impacts to payers um either property tax or franchise fee payers with that I'll turn it back to questions I don't have questions I have I just have remarks for our um uh residents in our citizens who are watching us tonight this is not the first time that we as um the mayor and Council have seen this because our staff and our Architects uh would take us through individually not together just individually um so we're not violating any open meeting laws uh about what's going on and the progress so that they can get um information from us we have time to ask our questions and uh so that's what's going on so if the public doesn't hear us ask a lot questions tonight it's because because this is a presentation that's presented not only for us but for the public to see what's been going on but that doesn't mean that we have not had this information as we kept going through our staff has uh kept us a breast of the process and uh what we are at um and they have followed our directions where the priority is police and City Hall and Fire Station 2 as a second and then maintenance as a third so all of that is also in all of the meeting minutes if anybody wants to check on any of that it's included in all of the meeting minutes uh not only all of our work sessions but uh any Council meetings that had anything to do with these projects and also the funding mechanism was also part of the discussion at one time so those are just my comments for our um for our citizens so that they understand if they don't hear questions from us tonight it's not because we are not interested in this we've been made aware of a lot of the this information and tonight um this is uh information only and an update to the public to us and to the public so I don't know if uh council member key go ahead um well I think it's worth pointing out to make it very clear that uh these numbers are shockingly large to everybody all of us uh when we first saw them and the public should know that the reason that there's a 10-year schedule of of a costs based on the 4% accelerator is we are not going to do all three of these at once no uh nor could we even physically whether we we can't fund it clearly clearly but we couldn't physically do it um and the police and City Hall project is the one that we've felt that is the most important and uh would get teed up first but probably isn't going to start in 2024 the first year of the scale or the the chart so um because we have to Now work on the funding for that so th this is um these are big scary numbers um we have some of this uh that we've been planning for but not all of it uh for the police and uh City Hall portion and um we're going to have some a lot of discussions about how we're going to fund this uh it should be noted this is a facility and this city chose many years ago to fund facility improvements through our franchise fee um which is U spread across the entire city every single property pays into the franchise Fe fee uh as opposed to the general Levy which is uh excluding um about 600 and some change properties that do not pay property taxes so uh this is something that every citizen every business in the city will be contributing to to fund the other thing I'll just close out is we're we're a very old city and this is these are these are the things that we knew years ago were coming um I don't want to belabor the point on the the initial investment in the police department uh some years ago that that uh turned out to be a little more short term uh from from the need standpoint than what um we were um um you know told at the time but the reality is we've done it right finally this time we thought we did it right that time but we were uh we were just uh lacking in a lot of information at the very least um and we short changed our Police Department um five or six years ago when it was when that particular uh project was done and uh and gave him a short-term Band-Aid instead of a fix that could take him 30 years this is the 30-year fix in all three of these facilities um and it's the one that should have been done years ago but we are dealing with it today we're dealing with 21% 19% inflationary construction rate uh which is absolutely unheard of uh and unattainable and it's unsustainable so something's got to give on that front so waiting till 2020 uh well maybe 2024 uh but 2025 or whatever to start hopefully we get a little relief in that area Social Security is only planning on putting a 3% inflator for Cola on the next round of of Dan smiling he's that's after an 88.7% increase because of inflation but construction inflation has been really running it's leading all inflationary indicators for the most part there's some outliers with different different products that have gone crazy but construction inflation has been outlandishly high the last few years so we're open that comes under control for for all our benefits the taxpayers and uh and even the private sector because they don't like paying 21% inflationary increases in building up projects so thank you yeah thank you for mentioning that we've been seeing this that we needed to do improvements in all of the facilities and then getting into to finding a funding mechanism to improve facilities for for the people thank you for making uh our residents aware of all of that and we'll come back to uh um that discussion in a future uh with regard to how we're going to fund it through the franchise uh fees which is what we put aside and um so and thank you for bringing that idea some years ago instead of just relying on the property tax but finding a way that everybody pays and so um and and and we've been doing it and so it's something that we need to do and we need to do it right we did fire station one right because we learn from the shortfalls in police and so we have a good model and that and when we directed staff to move forward it's about doing it right and so thank you for making those remarks you're welcome and we did do fire station one right it's a great model for us to follow on our own tracks because that's the facility that will be there for a very long time it'll handle all the growth and uh the taxpayers know that we won't be coming back again for an expansion on fire station one because we didn't do it right yeah yeah did you want to yeah mayor council council member key a couple of things you said first uh your last comment on on fire station one it it is a very good example Le of how we can do uh Future Ready projects so we don't need to put pieces together every decade or so uh and that really was the philosophy that we used and when we say do it right that's what we've meant and and that's the data that's in the report that we've talked about tonight you bring up another another good point that that perhaps we didn't highlight well enough uh on the staff side part of the reason we showed you 10 years worth of inflation in the tables that were in front of you this evening is the practical reality of our financial position uh and being cognizant of our debt position um as as we look at our overall financial position uh these three projects will need to be phased over a 10-year period of time uh we recognize uh that by doing it right and identifying those needs for 30 40 years that these are significant numbers that we're putting in front of the community uh I don't we don't as a team take that light with um and we recognize Iz that after a 14-month process where a lot of the staff folks around this table day in and day out have been working towards that reality that those numbers are frankly shocking uh they're large uh to your point uh that's also why we wanted to first come back to you here in October and talk about the predesign report um lay that information out uh and then come back to you in November to talk about those funding paths uh because they're they're significant discussions uh and we want to make sure uh that uh that the information that's put in front of you put in front of the community makes sense in that regard I'd also say the the the one last thing to to your comments um uh be it 2024 or 2025 that First Column of data it's labeled 2024 in this presentation those cost estimates are uh the uh believe it or not there's there's spreadsheets upon spreadsheets that are friends from from Ka as partners with cnh and staff on this project have put together very detailed cost estimating at this point in time we do believe that those 2024 numbers should the council decide to move any project forward uh that those would be realistic shovel and ground numbers that First Column uh is the Target that staff has identified if we were to move a project forward um or if the council were to decide to move a project forward um anytime in the near future so we've tried to be um very specific with that information uh so that there aren't surprises down the road certainly we'll come back to you uh next month um and present not only more details on on that cost estimating but also what those possible Financial paths forward could be uh should the council decide to move any one of the the projects as presented forward and the other part that I would like to see when you bring all of that is the debt that's going to roll off because I think that's a complete picture of looking so the our residents understand that as we take on more debt there is also debt that's rolling off um one of those PE those debts is the um um aim center it's in three years that rolls off uh for 2027 20227 so there will be debt rolling off when we put on more debt so when you bring that information let's make sure that we have all of that uh as the complete package so everybody understands what it is that we have and uh and what it is that's what it means going forward but as we look at these numbers as uh council members uh key spoke to it's not going to get cheaper it just gets more expensive okay M mayor we will certainly bring back a a comprehensive view uh on the financial side in November yeah council member Workman um I guess I was looking for the amount of certainty on that sliding scale because as I'm looking at the maintenance facility specifically by today's numbers is 54 million and then a proposed construction date of 2032 that jumps up by 20 Mill million dollar I mean we could build a a new fire station based on the yeah compounding interest and inflation um so as we prepare for this we're not preparing for that Top Line we're preparing for those projected construction start date numbers Madam mayor members of the council uh based on the council's current direction obviously that could change but the priority order that was established in July of 2022 uh that staff has spent the past 14 months talking about and would agree that it is uh likely uh the the the the still the best path forward uh the idea would be uh that we would be substantially into if the council were to provide direction to do so police City Hall uh in 2025 um uh in terms of in terms of actually moving things forward um Fire Station 2 would need to happen in the 2029 time frame and that puts then maintenance in the 2032 uh column almost over 200 200 million yeah yeah council member gipson did you have any thought well I just uh I'm thinking about this over the past few years as a council we've taken on a lot of lot of things we took on wage disparities and we took care of that we did Staffing studies and and last year we took care of that our Police Department had their study done we're we're addressing that now we have a space needs that has to happen and I think the quicker we take care of it the better we're going to be because I agree I mean it could cost a 780 80 million more if it gets kicked down the road too long and and the we won't have the space available that we need while we're waiting for that to happen so I'm looking very forward to hearing how we're going to get this done from our finance department I have a I have an idea but uh uh I I I just want to say that uh I'm really proud of this Council because we've taken on some tough stuff I mean and and Dan you you've you've come around to be there for that too and it hasn't come around from where well what do you insinuate you were Minister 2% no more for a long time okay you you changed that t in a bit which helped a lot this is Capital Improvements it but I'm just saying it's it's there and it needs to be done as for the future of our city and uh future councils won't have to deal with this hopefully for a long time and they can just worry about just the operation of the city as a whole which would be really nice so uh providing the service yeah providing the service is what we're all about but we also have to have the the the people and the facilities to do that with and and I think we're trying to take care of that now so I'm I'm looking forward to the next step here to talk about this okay any other comments if not Quin Brooke and our folks from Ka thank you so much um we look forward to seeing you all again and to our city manager and our leadership team thank you so much for all of the hard work mayor and Council just so you're aware uh uh we'll be updating our facilities pre-design landing page at Burnsville mn.gov uh so certainly we'll be sharing uh this information from tonight's meeting the video uh the the presentation that you saw uh the report from cnh that staff has worked together uh with Ka on uh as well as the uh the paper document in front of you the project sheet that that provides that summary so you'll see that shortly uh and the plan would be to be back in front of you in November as we've discussed to talk about potential funding paths and then from there we can discuss any potential next steps based on the council's priority and prerogative yeah and also um so everyone knows that one of the things that we do very well here in Burnsville as we engage our community so we will have engagement with the community about um about the facilities and asking and answering questions but letting them know what we're going to what we're doing and they'll have all of that information on the landing page uh in the front of them and I'm sure that um um John gestner is going to be writing about this because he's watching tonight absolutely mayor we will uh be talking with you and certainly the community far more as you provide us with Direction and make sure that the information is front of in front of everyone and that we're uh also connecting and reaching out uh throughout the community so that is definitely part of the process okay very good thank you so much for coming in and have a good night thank you the next item on the agenda this evening is um a sketch plan review uh for a school use in our I3 zoning District our community development director Jeff Thompson is presenting and um we're going to be hear from Jeff and then also from Mr Andy Chase and Mr Joe Miller from uh change from Chase development um Jeff the floor is yours thank you mayor and Council um as you introduced uh this is a sketch plan review um that's been requested by Chase real estate um for a potential change to our to our zoning ordinance it's just a a quick uh overview and and and mostly reminder for the council um sketch plan is a process that binsville has used uh in the past to to help uh guide really the highest level of your decision- making in the land use and development um realm and that is um in kind of um the legislative actions that you take to develop um uh to develop our comp plan and our zoning ordinance as we spend a lot of time at our regular Council meetings kind of in applying our ordinances through puds and site plan reviews and conditional use permits um but uh I think our comprehensive plan is our main guiding document for our development framework and certainly our zoning ordinance is the implementation tool to ensure we're creating a community that's consistent with our Economic Development land use and and our larger development goals that the council has so um so we will facilitate sketch plan review uh processes for those that are really the legislative action so the the major kind of examples of that are financial assistance applications grants and letters of support or conduit financing and then really what brings us tonight uh here is for any sort of comprehensive plan Amendment uh rezoning or an ordinance Amendment uh so that we can have really a more informal discussion with the council uh provide an opportunity for you to receive information um ask questions and ultimately provide feedback uh to the developer and also any direction to to staff so that's kind of what we're here for tonight for the sketch plan we're not here requesting a a formal decision of the council um this uh change should it uh should the developer want to pursue it would have to go through our formal land use application and Zoning process through our Planning Commission and uh with the public hearing and ultimately back to the council so really just um again for receiving information and providing feedback a quick uh so just to frame the the policy question up front uh for the council really um the the direction and feedback we're requesting tonight is is are you support of an ordinance change to allow schools as an allowable use uh within our I3 zoning District a bit of background on that um Chase real estate the representative are here today um own the um asset Executive Park um on South Cross and County Road 42 kind of the Northeast quadrant of that intersection um was previously the the headquarters of um asset uh they've been marketing the southerly building it's vacant um for some time they can speak more to about their marketing efforts and their interests that they've received from that property uh but have received interest from actually a number of um schools um and particularly one charter school uh that would like to purchase the property to to operate um their their Charter School from within that office building we have uh reviewed our ordinance um and in in working with them have uh determined that the I3 zoning District as it's written today does not allow schools not as a permitted use a conditional use and so really we do not allow schools today in that zoning District so the change um school or any Gathering School scho assembly yes school assembly and that would include um churches correct churches and so um we went back and just to provide you some from Context from both our comprehensive plan and the zoning district is this is really the purpose of the of this zoning district is to provide for warehouse light manufacturing and office and the objective we're trying to achieve from a development Economic Development Redevelopment uh perspective is to create kind of high quality this is kind of our our our office campus zoning District kind of our highest level of of um professional office and service so high quality industrial to support um employment centers business centers corporate headquarters and then the last piece a diversified tax base uh noting that um we're fairly Limited in the amount of land that we've actually uh set aside ex exclusively for this particular use so just wanted to frame for the council's background kind of how we've articulated the ordinance today what the objective and uh purpose is of this zoning District quick overview on schools um we allow uh schools in a number of zoning districts um in Burnsville they within our business Commercial um and within our mixed use and TOD they are permitted uses so they're allowed uh there by right uh without any assuming it's an existing building without any sort of uh land use clearance from uh the council and then we also allow them as a conditional use um in all of our residential districts uh but for our manufactured home park district that's the only one where we do not so pretty much all of our residential districts and then where we do not allow them in addition to I3 is really all of our industrial districts um our Parks uh District as well as our the gim and GI are in the mrq section of kind of the heavy and medium industrial uses within the um um Minnesota River quadrant in the Northwest part of Burnsville so quick summary is we allow schools um extensively throughout Burnsville um in in a number of areas both residential and Commercial um but have um in our ordinance excluded them or not allowed them in our industrial uh areas to support again in in my interpretation of the ordinance um but uh certainly to to support those objectives and purpose that are articulated uh in the comp plan and in those zoning ordinances just a a quick this is hard to see because it's the zoning map of the entire city and I don't do I have a laser that will work probably won't work on TV anyway um I'll try Jeff okay the um this is the zoning map just really all I want to highlight this is where we're talking for the I3 District so the I3 district is exclusively along County Road 42 it's kind of that great dark great color Greg yep it's stiff one and two yeah that's all that is historically related to when those districts were created and when that development happened and when Tiff districts were created that's the only area of Burnsville that has this I3 District you'll notice the businesses that are there are uh very similar or are consistent with that I3 zoning they are high-end manufacturing employment centers business centers Crea an office there's some medical office there now there's kind of a variety of uses that are consistent with that I3 District so the change um that chase is requesting which is an amendment would apply then to all of those kind of dark gray areas and would allow schools to be to operate and to purchase land or lease land or to operate within all areas along 42 kind of west of the railroad tracks thanks Craig Jeff yes recently the frontier property if you can go back to your map and the frontier property is on Burn Haven and um south of South Cross right cross and so that's in the like the darker red I know Greg it's going to be it's right off there you go be in in a in the business district B2 commercial correct and that's and it didn't have to come before us because it was an allowable use correct it's a permitted use so they took over that whole campus correct the frontier corporate campus correct when we go back to this you know when thinking of the previous slide so again all the red areas the purple areas Reds and purples um and all the the residential areas yellow and and white those are all the areas we allow schools today um the districts where we don't again are the Northwest Quadrant mrq um and then the the industrial area on the north side of 13 kind of east of Portland um that light industrial area in Burnsville and then really what we're focusing on today is the I3 along 42 yeah so we're only talking about when you look at uh the zoning map we only have very few areas when you look at uh that is I3 then you go to the um uh to the um Minnesota River quadrant um that whole area is industrial medium and Industrial heavy heavy Industrial in that correct correct okay so you haven't done the G calculation but most broad areas of Burnsville are zoned and would allow for schools um restricted to Industrial and in the industrial areas where we do not currently allow schools but again to highlight Chase's request is is exclusively for the 3 District um the change to that and not to every other industrial zoning District so just uh for your consideration um we just to frame a couple questions for the council discussion tonight um one is just are schools consistent with the land use and economic objectives of the city as as articulated in our comp plan and is recognized in our ordinance and then um yeah exactly are they consistent with the purpose and objective of the I3 zoning District as we stated just we did um have I had a conversation with our City attorney today Jared because I know one schools are tax exempt um under State Law Public Schools or uh schools uh are eligible for tax exemption for property tax purposes um so just to to share that information with the council um but also just to make you aware that this could the I3 change could have a broader impact on churches um we talked a little bit about when we allow any sort of assembly use um in a zoning District which schools have inherently an assembly use um we are required under the federal Rupa statute to to permit uh churches where other uh assembly uses are required so it's likely this policy change of only allowing schools would also open I3 open then to also allowing churches uh within those sites because of the federal law restrictions that we have around having to um allowing Church land uses in our community and it's religious I shouldn't say Church sorry religious land uses within our city uh we did want to uh provide you with some options tonight for the council consideration um the if you want to allow it there are really two options uh to allowing it within that district one is a permitted use so that would be a right of a use Allowed by right without Council approval uh the second is allowing it but by a conditional use permit and um that just simply allows us and the council and the public frankly um to review School uses for any sort of uh potential impacts on surrounding properties typically with schools those include things like where the outdoor use uses are uh bus and traffic uh Bus drop off and bus pickup and student drop off and student pickup because those can be very unique to schools than to other industrial buildings just on some of the the land use considerations of schools uh not uh not necessarily the same of as office so they're very similar options they would both allow schools again one as a permitted use and the second as a conditional use and certainly within your legislative Authority you can certainly uh determine that uh one we allow schools elsewhere in the city and secondly that it's in consistent with our our land use and Zoning plans for these areas and um provide direction to not allow schools within this zoning District so with that mayor I know we have Chase here tonight as well but I'm happy to answer any questions that the council may have I think we'll hear from Chase Mr Andy chase Mr Joe Miller yeah the is yours speak um and we wouldn't be here today I think if we weren't confident in that the building that we're proposing first of all would make a good school so we've met with um fire department the building department um and if it also was an industrial building if there was an industrial building we'd be able to make some use out of it but it is strictly a three-story office building um on the edge so it's not what you would normally think of as a normal industrial building so it is a it is an office building um that we feel we're not trying to shoehorn in anything um we um I own property by a school or Department building by school and um you know they don't have any parking or everything's done on city streets we have a large parking lot you know we wouldn't and that's why we think the conditional use permit approach um would work for us because you would get an opportunity to make sure that we're not becoming a nuisance to the city and to the neighbors um for the pickup and drop offs that Jeff talked about um so it's like we feel we've done our research and we've we've been marketing the building um the office use just isn't there um and it doesn't seem to be coming back and I feel in some ways we're piggybacking because we've had these conversations for a long time with um staff and as you know we're a you know apartment developer in the city and we've kind of been watching how things have changed and how the city is um I don't know is it really that correct way of looking at it but trying to be a little more open zoning um and so that's where we think the conditional use permit is makes sense because not everybody would you know a school wouldn't work everywhere and we're not trying to um you know there are employees in a school if this was a industrial building of that size it could have 20 employees 40 employees you know as a school when it comes to employees um in this school the one the the customers we've been talking to you know they're saying 75 to 100 employees so we're still kind of meeting that business um I own a building industrial so I kind of I followed the same thing when I built my building just up the street from um this property um you know we've worked with the Architects to make sure it's a good use um the building is in great shape now if the building was in great shape you could tear it down and build another industrial building but we've taken very good care of this building we've upgraded you know the the whole interior the HVAC systems over the last seven years as we as we've owned it so tearing it down would just be a shame I mean it's a beautiful building yeah I can add a few other things we actually initially applied for a B1 reason zoning application thinking there were so many overlapping uses including a daycare you could have a daycare currently in an I3 you can have certain types of educational you can have um I don't know how you describe it instructional Business Schools but you can't have a school school um so we're not asking to go and ask for all I3 we're just here because we have a building that's empty it's been sitting empty and we need a new user and we've had five Charter Schools approach us we've had one one church and we've had zero office so we'd love to hear your input we hope we can provide New Life to this building and give it uh and repurpose it to a new user we go uh well first off when I was reading our I3 and um you pointed out some of the questions I had is um we seem to allow every kind of uh education except the word School although it is noted in um business school so maybe adults but then you have daycare Nursery in there so there's children instructional Learning Centers that could be any age um I'm it's almost like we're I mean this is in our background I3 zoning District allows trade and Business Schools daycare Nursery instructional and Learning Centers as a permitted use and I thought isn't that a description of a school in a way so I think there's a little bit of uh terminology uh dance here to to try and uh allow certain things within this District um that really sound a lot like a school but maybe aren't except for the business school which is a school um and so at first I thought it was maybe trying to uh keep it more adult I guess and not children but with the the daycare in there which which is a natural supporting service for for people who work in an office building to allow a daycare to be in that building or in an adjacent building to support the folks that are working there so I think that's a smart move so uh my question was as I was writing notes when I read that I thought why why did we keep schools out um of this area but I kind of get it so um I like the cup uh approach I think that's the way to go personally on this pro project especially in this Zone uh and and you know you pointed that out I think you uh your rationale was spot on um I think we've done cup for religious assemblies in not in I some of our CIS just not I3 but maybe i1 and two um you know I zones can be I think cities are being challenged more than ever these days uh with zoning laws uh certainly there's some groups out there that are saying zoning laws are um shouldn't be on the books that people should do whatever they want with their property but I think as a planning tool zoning is obviously very important and it's a very good tool um they don't but they don't it's clear to me that the market forces have changed I feel like we've had this discussion and and I know Dan is smiling because we have we've had this exact same discussion before but we've also had similar discussions where a user wants to go in to lock uh the Lark industrial park and it's an entertainment place or it's an archery place or it's a fitness place you know or it's a a maybe it's a tap room or it's a a brew house all of things all of these uses were never envisioned when that uh area was developed as an industrial park 50 60 or 70 years ago right same for the west side of Burnsville when that I3 Zone was put out nobody had ideas that there might be these types of uses uh that might one day knock on the door and go boy that's a great use uh I've got a great use for this building but jesz the zoning doesn't allow it so I just think we're we're tasked again as we have many times in the past over the last 15 plus years um to rethink some of these zones and be a little bit more flexible because I think it's true Burnsville we're very proud to say we're very business flexible that goes for zoning too wherever we can and in this case with a cup I think it's a good use of it we need to be flexible because there's story after story after Story across the country where industrial parks I3 I2 i1 doesn't matter have all had to reinvent themselves in many in an extreme example we've even had discussions about lar Industrial Park like how can we just rethink that hole and rezone it and and allow a lot of different things it's it's hit that point um although the property owners are just happy to continue to be what they are because it's a it's a it's a great profitable area to be in but we've allowed a lot of different uses to go in there too um and this particular zone in Burnsville on the west side this is just one of a few situations that have come knocking there's been another one where there was a church um Mack and book that wanted to sell their building or or lease it or whatever um and so to me this isn't any different I think we need to be flexible I think we need to support our business and there is no secret about the office commercial office industry right now what Andy and and uh uh Joe have stated that there's been nobody knocking on their door is a story that's repeated thousands of times over across the country there is a postco challenge for office in industrial areas and um I don't know that that's going to fix itself that quickly with the amount of um hybrid work environments or uh small and mediumsized businesses have basically gone 100% um remote and many of them have no plans of ever going back to the office and so it's a challenging environment and so in my opinion uh I support this as a a cup uh I think it makes sense and we are tasked and I think we have to respond on to the market forces that are dictating a lot of this change um otherwise we're basically saying hey the zone is Zone sorry you're just going to have to sit on sit on that for how long a large and office building like that it would be a horrible thing in my opinion to tell a property owner sorry we're not going to be flexible with you you're just going to have to stay empty for forever right that's not a good thing for business life in that building whether it's a charter school or an office use puts life in the building which means there's life going on around it it keeps that environment and that part of the Town healthy letting it stay empty is not a good decision just look at our mall it's not a good thing to have that sitting empty for this long thank you okay um I tend to agree with Dan on this one um I'm buying a lottery ticket after this meeting Dan are agreeing on things okay good um am I mistaken but wasn't infer Grove over in that area for a little while who INF Grove College didn't they have a a campus over there or they maybe they were talking about one but anyways we'll forget about Inver Grove and just go to the volleyball Warehouse there's certainly a lot of assembly there and that's right next story of that building it's a different institutional assembly but it is still an assembly the federal from the federal go there any weekend you can't find a parking spot within two blocks of that place I'm here to tell you I go there all the time for my grandaughter so we do allow different things in that area and uh I think at one time I thought we were looking at a Housing Development over there at one point with Tod Johnson maybe that was a different property years ago no what you're thinking about is what we had to do I've been here a long time you know I have to TI one Tiff one and two Tiff one when we uh then we uh put in a Housing Development because we needed a tax base in Tiff one yep and uh it's Hollow je I think the housing development is hollow give me a minute I'll find it yeah it's yeah but that was I could be mistaken on that huh I could be mistaken on that but but what I am saying is we have allowed other uses in that area besides just industrial and the volleyball Warehouse is a fine example of that which brings a lot of people people the area I'm very familiar with that building I used to go to that building quite a bit actually and there's a tremendous amount of parking there and I don't see I don't see where a bus stop would be an issue coming out of that property in any way whatsoever it's it's off the street it's wouldn't interfere with the neighborhood and so I I I agree that I would I would like I would agree to go look at a cup for this property Vince um I mean Chase is you guys have been a great partner for a long time um you made a lot of commitments to Burnsville you're here so I don't question anything you've said I'm I'm continually impressed with with Chase and everything you do you give back to the community and so I appreciate all that um it feels like kind of a poke in the eye to the school district um you mean you take $20,000 of property taxes off and then put a competing school um you know nearby um but I don't think you're going to find any office use in that building people they're talking about converting the towers downtown into residential because people aren't going back to work and Office Buildings since Co so I don't uh I think conditional use permit would be the way to go on this I mean we don't want to open Pandora's Box necessarily but um I don't I don't want to handcuff Chase if they've got people knocking on their door with a school use here um it's a beautiful building I think it would it would fit a school well um and it is in an industrial area but that building certainly is not an industrial building by any means it's a nice office building and surrounded by industrial buildings so um I'm I'd be okay with it under a conditional use permit Jeff what are the unintended consequences of going within um conditional use permit because what we're doing is we're doing we're we're setting a precedence in the I3 area and so what are the unintended consequences uh mayor council um yeah if I could probably predict all the unintended consequences they would probably be intended um but um I think the biggest thing to keep in mind is for conditional like the the distinction between a permitted use and a conditional use is important yeah um but the policy change on both of those is we are allowing schools within all of these properties right um there is uh limited council discretion right when you when you if we were to amend the ordinance to allow for conditional use is essentially saying schools are allowed and we will permit schools here provided they meet some additional conditions that other land uses don't and it's particularly going to be around the things we've talked about so um the I guess the only unintended consequence I can think of at the top of my head is that um this as we change I3 to conditional use permits just for the council recogniz that will allow schools and in all of those properties we talked about um and some may convert and some may not but it would be a policy change to allow them within all those districts it would it allow churches it would allow churches yes so can you pull up that map again please because for me so Andy and Joe I hope you understand for for me when I look at this it's the change in land use right now in Burnsville we have a very balanced land use and um this is a small little area that has industrial I3 and where schools are all over the place and we just had a um school take over a big commercial property uh Frontier campus on uh burn Haven so as I look at that it's no different from you looking at your income and you say okay I'm going to take X number of dollars off my my um Revenue uh because and then the unintended consequence is that then anybody else can do that and uh they're not on the property tax roles and at the same time the level of service demand continues to go up and uh it's always a lot of pressure uh for us every budget time to take a look at all of these things so when I look at how we do operations here in the city it's all we we provide we're business and we provide service we have one um uh area for revenues that come in uh to to fund the services to the community that's police fire and uh parks and um public works at Etc and that comes from our property tax so when I look at this map and I see that we have that if we do a conditional use and you know I I was also thinking about this I don't know how long you owned you you bought Asset Marketing because I remember when we put that in I think it 94 we I bought it in 15 in 15 yeah because because it was in 90 I think it was 97 or 98 Dakota County says 96 96 so it was in the 90s yeah so the thing is about that is that abdala was looking for a site that would have been a really good site for ab dollas at the time because it meets what they were looking for and uh they went to Apple Valley because they didn't there wasn't any other land in Burnsville for them to expand yeah we we were kind of hoping we might be able to do something with them pardon but the timing wasn't right yeah we I understand but you know so and I understand the challenges post pandemic and what um business are doing I read a lot in urban in the Urban Land um website and what they're doing not only in our country but ac across the world but mostly in our country about how they're reimagining and rethinking how to use these buildings and how to repurpose them and some of them are doing um makers out of that where entrepreneurs are coming together and all of that so for me um the conditional use is a tool that is that's available uh for you to do this and I hear three of my colleagues that are are saying that they're okay with it which means that you're going to get it you're going to get a conditional use my for me it is about how much we have and that's not a lot that's not a lot of acreage in uh the industrial Zone um I I appreciate that you um there are one thing and I don't know he's working his GIS system over there fairly quickly U Mr Workman he's good at it um is I I'm not sure the frontier school or the frontier um tele building is necessarily off the tax rolls either because these schools can be owned by private I mean I could own the building and lease it to a school and it would because there are some who own the building and lease it to a church right so it's not 100% a tax play um yeah and the I can appreciate the school district part of it too I mean yeah because the the school district gets 33% of our commercial industrial tax Monopoly if you want you know they would love to have it um but from a school standpoint it might not um it could force a school to go into a any other business district and the school is still sure coming sure so one is not prohibitive of the other because uh the school district that's impacted by uh the frontier site is 196 because I think 196 has the shopping center in part of they're south of 42 yeah yeah and then 191 is north of 42 and 196 is and that's impact that's where I'm saying that the that uh school that took over the frontier building was 196 School dist it's 196 yeah because they always talk to us about it last meeting Greg and I had with the superintendent um they're always wanting to understand what's going on with the shopping center simply because uh a lot of their tax Bas the frontier building is owned by Aspire management so I don't know if that was a lease or contract I believe I mean I don't know I haven't looked to see if it's on the tax rols I believe it is because Aspire is a private company so in June of 2022 so I don't know if we would even have that information yet yeah not okay I mean I I don't know but that could be a possibility that but but just so you understand where I'm coming from you know when I look at these things I'm looking at the whole city of Burnsville and I'm looking at what it is that we need to be as a good business when you have pressures on service and then your tax base shrinks and it creates that creates a lot of pressure and we go through this every year when we're looking at um at our budget so yeah just so you understand how I look at all of this stuff and I'm looking for the good of the city and I also want to understand what happens if we open this door the door is open you've got three uh folks were saying but I just want to have that discussion once you set a precedence and then what happens you know I I appreciate that and that's why we're here today and not a year ago is because we wanted to make sure that we weren't trying to shoehorn in something that worked for us but wouldn't necessarily work for our neighbors or the rest of the school I mean I I kind of as a real estate person understand the the big picture it's not always about um my income um it's about what makes sense yeah and some things make sense some things don't and but with the office the amount of room we have minimum impact and you know with all in all the be in the you know where it's allowed with similar type buildings so it's a a zoning thing but the building is set up for it we're not trying to put a church in a warehouse or anything like that yeah we had them too no I understand and um and uh yeah you know you you've got to go ahead to go with a conditional use I just would like our staff for us to take a look at that um and we we look at a cup and I don't know if there are any other guidelines that we want to put in place but it also really has a direct impact on our Economic Development strategies and so for me when I'm looking at making a decision it's taking into consideration all of those factors and looking at this map this is the map that tells us what our income level is and where that income is coming from and how much of that is industrial how much is commercial how much is residential and for many years residential continues uh to carry the burden of uh the tax base and Commercial doesn't so so when I'm looking at that I'm looking at the land use you know like any business person you're looking at your income level and your Revenue stream and that's what I'm doing but um okay Andy I know that you do good work uh I I have no uh reservations about that I live in one of your products thank you I bought one of your products so uh I know that you good you do good work and uh you've been a longtime business um owner here in Burnsville and I appreciate everything that you've done uh all of the product that you come you bring in and uh and they're very good products thank you for the work that you've done in filling out the Heart of the City with Gallery one and gallery 2 um and I think you have I think you're absorbed in both buildings so you yeah things are going well right now yeah yeah things are going well saw some commercial signs going up and we're getting a few I mean that's a hard that's a hard sell Joe said that would never happen at the planning commissione crawling it just takes time but I see cuz you know I live in the area so I go in and out and so I see that it's filling out uh in gallery too so yeah right well thank you very much um yeah um I think I I would like to ask Jeff we can go off you know in another meeting on the timing um schools are I mean obviously they have timing issues which is next September for them um the ones we're talking to are looking at getting started um in the kind of the February time frame so we're hoping we can go simultaneously with the text Amendment and our plans and you know the plans that we bring forward I'm um hoping that um we'll be proud of him and that you know you'll find him acceptable to be a good neighbor okay Jeff yeah mayor council we can certainly talk more and and work with the applicant on and Chase on um the timing of the of the whole thing because just to for uh to be clear before we can issue a conditional use permit or at least at the same time we do have to amend the ordinance to specifically allow it as a conditional so we can't just allow it by conditional use per we have to amend the ordinance um yeah as a first step so we can certainly work on timing of of your contract and and that and and how to work through the process within the deadlines but just to be clear that there will be two items coming forward first an ordinance Amendment and second the actual conditional use permit so my next pitch to you and d and Joe why don't you just own the property and lease it out to the school um well that's not off the table that's something you can consider it's not off the table at all no we we've done that research um and you know we have the stats and the average rents and um that's one thing that I think you know I say when I look at the sum of the parts um to us to fill that building as an office use um rents would be extremely low which then you know all of a sudden my driving down rents in the whole city cuz I'm trying to give away 60,000 Square ft y um you have to manage your operating costs which you know if you have tenants that can't afford good rent they can't afford your your operating expenses okay which turns the building into maybe a little bit of a deferred maintenance mode so it's the it's a bad cycle to be in but the schools um you know because of their funding sources they can pay a fair rent so and I think we keep looking the taxes might go up well keep looking down in that direction and maybe you know because when I look at um the taxes on commercial buildings they have they've been very flat or else low so our Residential Properties are always carrying the burden so so that's my last pitch to you see if you can not off the table that we good than the direction is contined to work with our staff but um Elizabeth can I ask a quick question of Jeff but just um own the building and rent it to them yeah um I use Google Earth a lot when we talk about stuff like this and Zoe church is a rental I don't think they own it okay but it's an assembly use in an I3 District so I'd be curious how that took shape when Zoe Church went in if it was something similar to this cuz it looks like it could fall under that green spot just south of the I3 over further it's further off of Irving it's closer it's on burs yeah it's on oh Burnsville Parkway down south of 42 M yeah but it sits in what looks like an I3 District so I'm just trying to use that as a point of reference as we discuss this too because it yeah I don't know how that could have fit in without a similar discussion is that right on the Burnsville park I think it was a variance with a 32 yeah it's a store across the street from Mac is uh looking at this and it so it is looking it up but yeah because I don't need anything the second I just I saw it and I thought well that's sitting there and kind of in the same vein is what we're discussing with Chase so so building is still paying T if I remember yeah because it doesn't look like the school owns it no no yeah anyways yeah okay well thank you for your time um well you're very welcome yes we have a big project ahead of you with the next 10 years so yeah um but I guess as a resident of the community um anybody you want to ask me any questions on it sometime I'm happy to give you my input yeah no yeah and thank you so much for everything thank you um Andy and Joe and yes work with Jeff you go forward it nice to meet you by guys but keep that uh thought about owning the property and ining it thank you that'll maintain the Integrity of our land use yeah thank you so much okay moving on um Jeff is that I think you got Street yeah okay all right round table um Michelle you have a special work session for the black dog interviews thank you Madame mayor yes and city council we are currently ly recruiting for the black dog wo uh positions this is something that we do every 3 years and their terms expire in November every three years and we don't rotate some in and out every year it's just once every threeyear project however um because of recent circumstances we are also going to try to um recruit a couple of EDC Commissioners for the vacancies um from within our current we have um some existing Commissioners that would like to apply for that and also um our code review task force who will be dissolving soon has also express some interest if there was an opening so we're looking at we've asked them to apply if they're interested and we're thinking that there will probably be around 10 to 12 applicants and we're looking for some dates if you'll pull up your calendars and let me know um some potential dates that I was looking at would be um we do have the quarterly round table on the 21st 24th the 23rd or 25th would be open of course we have that fifth Tuesday in the month in the month which would be a likely date except if it wasn't Halloween and I don't think we want to ask people to come in on Halloween so no they won't come so but we also have that October 30th or November 1st date if you would if any of those dates would work or open to any other date that you might see open I'm good on all of them except Halloween Matt can you say the days again so 23rd 25th the 23rd and first 30th and 1 30th and 1 so you're saying Monday the 23rd yep Monday the 23rd Wednesday the 25th the 25th won't work for me okay because I had to change my dental appointment on the 23rd and the only time they can take me in is at 6: p.m. and I can't do that because now then it'll go into next year appointments are hard to come by may they are I know and so that's the reason why I had to take that one different so what was the other 30th and first yes I can do the I can do all of that accept the the 25th 23rd Works me works for me yeah 23d take an hour um if we have 12 people we can usually interview about five per hour so we're looking at probably two and a half hours two to two and a half hours um if we start at 5:30 5:30 we be done 7:38 23rd is fine 23rd we still having a quarterly round table on the 24th we are yes M 23rd it is 23rd and 530 yeah okay Michelle that gives you in your team enough time to recruit and deal with other vacancy issues you're good to go we have already started your miracle workers okay uh Michelle the next item on round table is yours and this is the November 14th work session thank you Madame mayor yes the um November 14th work session we were going to we will anticipate that a couple of our council members will be absent and uh in an effort to make sure that all of you can be present for the discussion we wanted to reschedule that um if we're looking at November the 28th is typically set aside for an extra budget session if needed uh it doesn't appear that we're going to be discussing the budget on that evening so that seems like it would be a good it's already on our schedule anyway it's already on your schedule because yeah no we're having a aren't we having a so Madam mayor members of the council you would have a regular council meeting to as you directed uh and has been posted budget the truth and Taxation hearing so your final Levy and final budget uh so then we would 28 we would simply move the work session to the same night um much like we've done before we'll take a break reset the room yeah um we can do that because afford the opportunity for those of you who are traveling to NLC um because we only to participate and and frankly it will be an important discussion we are planning uh as we talked earlier this evening to bring funding paths for the predesigned municipal facility projects back uh to you for further discussion yeah because the only thing um to find out tonight we have on that um council meeting is the budget uh TNT correct and then we can re we can adjourn and then go into the dates are you talking about this would be Tuesday November 28th it was already on our schedule for a work session anyway yeah correct yeah it was and then uh and then U when we had the uh Max tax we confirmed that we will have do the TNT on the on the same night and just to refresh your memories obviously Council M Schultz is is absent this evening uh but we did confirm when we rescheduled TNT your final ly final is back meeting that she is back for that meeting yeah and she was here when we made that decision correct she was present at the meeting okay did we cancel any other November meetings as a result of that or we're still solid on all the other dayses okay okay all right uh then we move on to uh reports [Music] um council member Workman you have a report uh nope it was a slow month for me so I have nothing to report counc member G this Thursday will be our very first board meeting for Metro cities so I just got my agenda today 106 pages of policy I have to read over by then yeah because we've finished our work and so it all goes to the board so it's yeah so it's there I'll have to report next month about that meeting okay Council key uh I just wrapped up mattress City's transportation and general government yeah so we and I wrapped up two weeks ago right with our with our Metro cities meeting yeah with always some healthy debate and good compromise for good outcomes from the group very uh very diverse group of opinions on these committees but very enjoyable uh sta Governor's Metropolitan government's task force met late September um of particular interest was a recap given by commissioner Mary Liz Holberg of the Blue Ribbon uh committee on uh Metropolitan governance um and there was a note about how Suburban providers are working with meth Council in transit today which we actually have a very collaborative relationship however we're still battling for funding um and um uh by comparison to other markets and um I uh invited or suggested that we invite the SDA board chair M Mike Wang and um Luther uh Weidner our mvta executive director to present uh sta um growth and funding challenges at the I35 Solutions Alliance this Thursday so looking forward to that a lot of eye openening information in there and then the Burnsville uh chamber public policy committee this Friday is having a be informed event on uh diversity equity and inclusion and workplace Whitney Harvey from Minnesota Chamber of Commerce is presenting to uh help companies uh determine if their Dei efforts are appropriate for their business so good educational deal and that is it okay and uh Greg and I will be at the mlc meeting this Wednesday so nothing to report we haven't met with well with Savage that's coming up also I reported on that last time um Hugo and I wrapped up Metro City's policy uh committee on Metro uh agencies and um that was two to three weeks ago and um my um Burnsville Community Foundation meeting is this Thursday and uh nothing has changed from the last time that I reported so that's my report city manager Lindberg do you have anything nothing Madame mayor okay are we all good if we all good then uh we stand adjourned uh by acclamation and thank you very much everyone for being here this evening and thank you for our residents who uh have been watching us on on television so have a good night and thank you you for joining us we stand adjourned stop