All right. Thank you. We're starting the workshop for July 15th. Roll call, please. >> Council member McKenzie >> here. >> Council member Schwar >> here. >> Council member Nordby is absent. Council member Woods is absent. Mayor Mongi >> here. >> Thank you. I get a motion adopt agenda, please. >> Some moved. >> So moved. Council member Schwar. >> I'll second. >> Second. Council member McKinley. All those in favor say I. >> I. >> I. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Mayor. We have one item uh on the agenda for topics tonight, and be the 2026 budget, specifically the CIP and dealing more with the streets than any other part of the CIP. So, I'm going to turn that over to our finance director, uh Dan Wick. Start us off. >> Mayor, council member, uh thank you very much. Um, good news and bad news tonight. Uh, bad news is you're going to have to hear from me for a little while. Good news is I'm not going to talk for the whole hour and 15 minutes. We got Morgan, um, our city engineer, and, um, Ron, our public works director, um, will do most of the talking tonight. Um, want to kind of take you just kind of a reminder of where we're at right now, um, with the budget. Um my understanding is that we're not going to focus a lot on our operating budgets. If we look at our operating budgets outside of our cost of living increases and step increases for personnel, we actually reduced um what I call our supplies, our uh our contractual um services um from our budgets. Um and so really the biggest change outside of uh the salaries um is really capital and capital all comes from the CIP, the capital improvement plan. So really we need to focus on that because there's really a lot of tough decisions that city council is going to have to make. Um and I'll kind of emphasize that as I kind of go through this and I'll go through it relatively quickly. But right now uh tonight we'll just kind of look at the 2026 proposed levy. We'll look at some other factors that potentially could have an impact in the future um on the city and then we'll look at where the 2026 2035 capital improvement plan is at. Um there'll be a lot of discussion on streets um preventative uh pavement preservation and the utility infrastructural for the major reconstruction projects and then we'll open it up for discussion. Right now where the proposed levy is at for the city portion of the levy we're at a 6%. Um right now we're we have no utility rate increases. This is kind of a breakdown of where the proposed levy. As you can see we part of our levy components. We have the general fund, we have street maintenance, um we have park and we have asset preservation and we have debt. Um, and those are, you know, kind of the five components that make up uh the primary component for the city's uh levy. We also have leveies for HR and EDA. And if you remember, we're keeping them um at this at this proposed moment um just to the same as they have been um in 2025. What that does is that reaches the 6% increase for the city levy. Um if you remember to achieve this and we will have discussion on this um at a future date before we do the maximum levy. Um to achieve that 6% we had to do a penalty transfer from the electric remains. We did that last year for the first time um for the 2025 budget. We would keep that in place. The EAB removal because eventually that'll go away. um that we're taking that advantage now and we're shifting the funding from the general fund to the asset preservation fund in the amount of $90,000. Um we're restoring some enterprise transfers uh in the amount of just about $65,000. What those that what that total of $286,000 translates to is that it was able to reduce our levy about 3.7. If we don't take all of those, we have a levy of 9.7. Um, so that's how we achieve that 6% levy. Um, some of the changes as you can see, uh, why we're not going to be focusing a lot on the operational side to it. Um, although we can answer any questions that city council has on that, but are, you know, personnel costs because cost of living due to the, you know, the contracts. There's no additional SFTE being requested. Um, it's almost $300,000 or 3.8% of of the levy increase. Um, we see our supplies of contractual services and capital in our general fund are decreasing $337,000, a 4.33% levy decrease. Um, you see there's a transfer um a reduction of $20,000. That's an item that we'll end up talking um about at a later point in time because that was what was needed to make uh the um community center whole um for 2025. And then all other reduction or all other um changes are um $87,000. So our general our general fund itself only increases $28,000 um or 0.4% of a levy increase. The other increases are really from those other four components. The streets, the parks, the asset preservation, and the debt. All of those are all four of those categories are related to the capital improvement plan. That's why it really is important that we focus on that capital improvement plan um and really understand the impact of what that capital improvement plan does or doesn't do for the city. Uh here's where the debt levy is at. As you can see, um, we have a new debt that's being added for 2026, and that was the bond that was just issued earlier this year for the 2025 street reconstruction plan or project. Other factors just to keep in mind, if you remember earlier on, we kind of talked about uh that uh the state of Minnesota was looking at about a $6 billion deficit in their 2028 2029 fiscal year. um after legislation of this year in the passing um there's been some reductions and now they're kind of projecting it to be about a $2.2 billion reduction. There was discussion in both the House and the Senate of making reductions in the local government aid if and I have a slide here just to kind of show you some different projections on to that of what kind type of impact that could be for the city. But we have about a 1.6 6 million that we get in local government aid. Um in addition um the bill um and budget that was proposed or that was passed by the federal um government um just recently that um there's funding in um that's going to be reduced uh for uh Medicaid and SNAP programs. um that doesn't necessarily directly those two programs don't necessarily directly impact um the city um but it definitely will impact um the county Ramsey County um especially that SNAP program um and so if uh they don't make adjustments um they're going to have levy increases on the county level um and they're going to see potentially some programs andor staff reductions uh moving forward to kind of look at our local government aid. We get uh a little over $1.6 million. If if there was a 1% reduction, you know, that's $16,000 or 2% increase in our levy. If you can see the the table there, two, three, four, five. If it was a 5%, you know, that would be about a 1% increase in our levy. We're not going to see that moving into 2026. is something we need to be aware of that may end up happen to happening to us as we move into the 2027 budget and the budgets thereafter. So now we focus on the 2026 2035 capital improvement plan and when we look at that capital improvement plan over 10 years it amounts to $100 million. That's a hefty price tag. And what you're going to see is that the majority of that money um is going to be in streets um facilities um and parks. To be able to afford that plan um means that we're going to have to continue continually continuously levy about $250,000 for street and street debt or about a 3.2% 2% levy increase. Parks um with the plan that's here right now um would require an additional $30,000. That's not included in that 6% figure that we had started with. So that's another discussion item that we'll have moving forward in into the future as we set the maximum levy. It would bring the total up to about 70 6,000 or almost 1% of a levy increase. And then the asset preservation is requiring $142,000 annual levy increase about 1.8%. We total that. That's $467,000. That's about a 6% annual increase. That's not just one year. That's every single year for the next 10 years. We will start off with a budget to afford this capital improvement plan of approximately a 6% levy increase. And in addition to that, there's going to be some needs and changes both in the equipment internal service fund and the building maintenance fund. Um we're going to need to increase them um starting in 2027 of approximately 5% per year. Um that'll have a levy impact of just under 4%. And then it has a non-levy impact and where that impact is is is that that's hitting our enterprise funds. Um, so that's hitting our electric, our water, our waste water, our solid our solid waste, our surface water. Um, the rates that are going to be needed to be able to capital or to be able to afford all of this in our enterprise funds is yet to be determined, but we will um I will finish those calculations up and have them before we do our maximum levy certification. But there will be increases in our rates to be able to afford this capital improvement plan. That's why it's so important that we have this discussion because this is really the biggest driving factor of what is driving our levy. When we look at the categories of the levy and this pie chart will show you can see there's one big huge component and that's streets and utility reconstruction and it's approximately 44% over the next 10 years. There's also another little sliver over there to the right called pavement preservation. That's 6%. When we combine those two, it's about, you know, it's a $50 million. So 50% of what we're the funding that we're going to need for the next 10 years is really related to our street, one of our infrastructural components to it. So with that, we're going to just focus tonight um on the street component to it. And that's what makes up the street components to it is the pavement preservation program. Um that has uh you know uh the maintenance overlays, crack ceiling, striping. Um there's some parking lots that are included into that component. And then there's a street and utility reconstruction. And you'll see that we have had a plan that every other year we bond for major reconstruction projects. uh we currently did that in 2025. The next one scheduled is 27 to finish up the project that is currently going on. Then there's 29 and 31. What this plan doesn't have at this point in time is 2033 and 2035. Um but there is pavement rehabilitation dollars that have been put into there. Um that'll be information that will end up having to come, but it probably won't come until later part of this year. to put in there. So, with that, I'm going to turn it over um to Morgan, our our city engineer, and Ron to kind of discuss and and they handed out a 2024 pavement management report. This was given to city council about two years ago when we started implementing that pavement rehabilitation um to have something in those off years from the major um project uh reconstruction to get our road rating up higher. So, with that, I'm going to turn it over to Morgan. Um, he's going to kind of walk you through parts of that report, and really what we're trying to show is that there really is a need on this infrastructure for the streets. Um, so there'll be time for questions and answers. Um, and you know, uh, you know, following what Morgan has, if there's any clarification and so forth that we need. So, with that, this is the good news. I get to stop talking. You get to stop listening to me, and we'll turn it over to Morgan. >> Thanks, Dan. >> Appreciate it, Morgan. >> Mr. Mayor, members of the council. So, at at uh at your desk, uh you should have a copy of the latest pavement management report, which is kind of the state of the city's streets. We do this annually. Um, this is something that I've presented past councils on, usually during the budget time, uh, just to give a an understanding of, uh, where we are with our streets, what kind of changes we've seen from, uh, past activities like pavement preservation projects, some of the street and utility reconstruction projects. basically the significant capital reinvestment that the city and past city councils has committed to in the past and be able to understand and hopefully measure and have some metrics behind um what we're seeing. This is a um it's a a very datadriven process. So every third uh of the city's streets is rated each year. So every three years we have a complete picture of the condition of all of our miles of of roads and streets and alleyways throughout the city. Um and we have mapping that is a very important tool for public works to be able to understand um where are how are our streets degrading over time? How f how quickly are they? How do those streets and the locations interact with underground utilities like water mane brakes? and they're very important to be able to make decisions about well where is the next project going to be or where is the next maintenance overlay project going to be. Um, so and it takes some of the guesswork out of it, right? So the the ability for a city to have some qual uh qualitative data to be able to understand the condition of its streets rather than just knowing well that neighborhood is bad or this neighborhood is good and how much better or how not. This on a scale of zero to 100 allows the city, city staff, city council to be able to better understand uh the condition of its infrastructure and be able to understand and hopefully make informed decisions in terms of uh those significant investments that uh finance finance director Winnick has mentioned previously and that are certainly uh under consideration for the current budget and the current capital improvement plan. So, just a couple high-level executive summary points um to be able to share with you what we're seeing this year compared to last year. And u for the benefit of the public and and there's some newer council members on the council at this time that maybe uh weren't a part of my past presentations. Um I mentioned that we rate a third of the city every year. the last um rating in 2024 uh was mostly the downtown area and the area kind of just south of that. So, and the reason why that's significant is that because of COVID and there's a little bit of a pause in there in terms of our rating activities. Um there was a gap in the ratings from 2019 to 2024. So, it was a significant update for onethird of the city. Uh and in that downtown area, as you know, we saw several projects in 2020, 2022, uh 7th Avenue, um and some other areas adjacent to that. So, there were some investments that brought roadways that were previously deteriorated and of a lower rating up to a rating of 100. Certainly, when they're brand new, they go to 100 and then they slowly degrade over time. So what that did is it actually uh provides a much more accurate picture of the overall city and we did see uh an overall weighted average for the whole city of pavement condition for all streets uh improve from uh about a I think it was 56 on a 0 to 100 scale to 67 on a zero to 100 scale. So a 10point jump there approximately. Um so that's a very positive um you know call it return on investment but a good indication that we didn't have last year where it was a little bit flat and I think we were kind of at the bottom of the inflection point and now maybe we're turning the corner and based on some of these projects and ongoing investment we're hopefully going to be able to see an uh an improving trend over time. At least that's what I expect. Time will tell and we will have the data to be able to see that um you know year-over-year future budget discussions, future considerations for the capital improvement plan is that always is going to be kind of an evolving document. What you approve you know this year doesn't mean that it's going to be the same capital improvement plan two years from now. Right? So this will on an ongoing basis this will provide some information metrics again to inform uh not only the decisions this year but in the future. But that uh improvement is I think worth noting. Uh so as I mentioned part of the pause there and updating uh that particular part of town had something to do with it. Um and we also I think based on those projects as I mentioned in 22 23 and 24 overall on the system are also contributing to that. So, um, that's the first thing I'd like to point out. On the on page three, which is basically the second page of the report, is a graph, basically a bar graph that we have looked at in uh, the past. And what we do is uh, the far left grouping there. That's all of our roads, but we also can look at uh, these different types of roads. So, collector roads would be um busier roads such as like Margaret Street um and uh that carry more traffic, more high volume roads. And you would expect them to be of a little bit higher uh quality or higher rating than maybe just local roads. That's pretty typical community to community. um knowing that they carry more traffic and maybe just on a general ongoing basis um there's a preference to have them be on average higher rating than maybe just local roads on average. The next category is uh termed local. So that would be all the other streets that are not collector roads throughout the um throughout the city. So you know neighborhoods uh residential streets including culde-sacs, right? So, um, the current average for local streets, uh, citywide is 61, just over 61. And in 2024, the collector road average, which includes 7th Avenue, as I mentioned, several projects in the last several years uh, in this area that was just rerated in 2024, that's jumped up to 75. So, that's actually a really strong rating for collector roads for the city. We also and the next two groupings can separate and look at what is our average for all our roads that are asphalt and then the next one is all our roads that are concrete. So that's mostly 7th Avenue but also portions of uh Margaret Street are concrete pavement. So not a significant mileage of roads but uh we do maintain concrete roads a little bit differently and they're certainly more upfront costs to install or reconstruct them uh a little bit different than asphalt roads. So we like to group those separately. And then finally um alleyways as well too uh are looked at. So um again you can see from the green bar which is the most currently rating across the board we're seeing some improvement there for the reasons that I've previously stated. Um I will note that uh as stated in the report here and this was a trend or an observation last year as well too that uh you know the city has shown its ability to maintain the current condition of the pavement network and the roadway system and now ongoing you know we're looking at a potential positive trend in terms of an improvement. As I said time will tell in future years we'll hopefully be able to bear that out for the benefit of the public and the benefit of the city. Um but just to point out as Dan mentioned to like you know the decision- making um in terms of budgeting or level of investment it is certainly important. Last year we did run several test scenarios that did bear out the fact that at the you know generally speaking the level of investment that is included in the capital improvement plan now as proposed um is expected to at least hold its own if not improve over time. Um, and that's my expectation moving forward. But once you start dialing that back or pause, putting a pause in there, it really doesn't take long for the portion of the overall city's street network that has not yet been improved because that degrades day over day, year-over-year to pull the whole average down. Right? So just looking at the overall averages is just a tool. It's not indicating, you know, that one city is better than the other city. But in terms of the city being able to understand where it's at with its infrastructure assets, roadway assets, which is a significant asset for basically all residents plus the traveling public, folks that visit North St. Paul, folks that travel through North St. Paul, um it gives you a better understanding of um of what is happening and and what might happen in the future and how that relates to current levels of investment and future levels of investment for you know decision considerations by this council and future city councils as well. So um finally I think uh just in terms of you know something that I mentioned previously that is a a reasonably good tool um to understand kind of ongoing investment. On page 12 is a graph that kind of compares uh the the over time how the quality of asphalt roadways deteriorates over the course of 10 20 30 40 years. sometimes longer than that and uh and you know measuring that on a zero to 100 scale. Um and the point that that graph is trying to make is that with spending very specific uh uh lower amounts at indivi interval periods throughout the life of a roadway rather than just leaving it alone for 40 years. you can actually extend the life of a roadway out much further. Um, and you'll be far ahead on money and investment versus just doing nothing and waiting till it's time to reconstruct the road. So, I mean, the little note on the graph is spending $1 on preservation uh earlier on and several more uh frequent times throughout the life of a roadway eliminates or delays spending$25 to $30 on rehabilitation or reconstruction later on down the road. And that is the strategy that public works and myself have tried to adopt and have tried to implement since the implement or the the initiation of the current um pavement preservation program which started uh approximately 2014. 2012 2014 was when that initial capital improvement plan was developed. And so public works does stay on top of doing things like sealing cracks every two to three years. I think some of you have been a part of authorizing some of those contracts. They're smaller expenses, but they go a long way to kind of keeping that graph up high as opposed to just kind of let it fall off over time. And again, you know, if you do nothing and we can expect 40 years out of a road or maybe a little bit longer if we're lucky, but if we can do some of this ongoing uh regular investment and make that 60 years or 75 years, I mean, that's hopefully good investment and benefit for the public um and the taxpayers as well too. So, with that, I'll finish with just letting you know that at the back and in the appendix, there is that city-wide map. Uh, that's um current as of last year and last year's improved roadways. Certainly, the city is involved right now with uh the 2025 street and utility improvement project, which is up around Casey Lake. There's also a maintenance overlay project that is going to be hitting several roads kind of throughout the city, both north and south. Um, so those are not included here. We would expect that when we rerate the roads roads this year and we improve the qual the rating for those specific streets um that we'll see some improvement again on that overall network uh average. Right. So I'll be back probably if Dan has me again at a future meeting, you know, next year to kind of report on uh what we're seeing in 2026 uh based on the ratings that we would be doing this year. So, with that, I'll stand for any questions the council might have. But that is um our current most up-to-date uh qualitative or quantitative, I'm sorry, information that we have with respect to uh our roadway uh infrastructure network uh throughout North St. Paul. >> Thank you, Morgan. Appreciate the report. It's good to see those numbers jump. That was quite a It was quite nice to see for where they were a few years ago. So, it's uh it's good to see that the effort we've been putting into it and the money the city has that we're we're getting it back like this. >> Thank you. Anybody else have any any questions? >> Uh thank you so much. Really appreciate very informative. Um is WSB or does WSB does North St. Paul fit any of the demographics or qualifications for any of the pilot programs for roads? Is that something we should be looking at? Um I know some of the smaller outlier, you know, towns. Um I didn't know if that was something that WSB is aware of and if North St. Paul would fit any of those programs. >> Yeah. Are you uh um referring to like the local road research board kind of uh research projects or that sort of thing? Um North St. Paul May. A lot of the research uh currently right now revolves around like emerging um I guess I'll call it emerging technologies but it's really kind of you know rehabilitation techniques right so um uh not a lot with the more major kind of like overlay or milan overlay or rehabilitation not much research is going on there but there is a fair amount with respect to um road rejuvenators or I don't know, you know, I'm g start going to sound really like technical here, but micro slurry, uh, you know, which is kind of like a very thin overlay. Um, for me, you know, and I'm a I'm an engineer and I'm all, uh, into technology and and research and new things, but I also there's a big part of me that um, feels very strongly that uh, unless somebody else is paying for it, I mean, experimentation is sometimes um, tough, especially with the with construction costs, right? um tough to just take those kind of risks because you don't don't really know if it's going to work or not. So, it's certainly something that staff can look into. Again, it probably wouldn't be on more major projects, but it might be on alternative ways to deliver some of those incremental um uh like sealing andor surface sealing or rejuvenating type of chemicals or operations that are out there that are more emerging that are not more widely adopted. Um, but may that may be beneficial. And the reason why some of those pilot projects are happening is that there's just not enough data. Like nobody knows how they're going to perform. Some might perform well. I mean, I think it's hard to believe that some of the products or technologies out there will be detrimental, but some might not show much benefit. Some might show some benefit, and we just don't know yet, right? So, I am WSB is always kind of monitoring those. there may be an opportunity to, you know, fold in a neighborhood or a street or whatever. And so that's something that public and work works and I can take a look at and see, you know, what we might be able to bring to bear to North St. Paul um in the future, whether that's a standalone pilot project or it's uh something that we look at and explore as an opportunity to just try something different and see if we get better results than what we're doing right now. >> Awesome. Thank you. And you're absolutely right. It is a risk versus reward, but I do know some of those pilot programs do have a little bit of um financials attached to them where you know it might take a little of the burden off the project. >> So, but it is a riskreward. I appreciate that. >> Yeah. No, it's certainly something to look into. >> How often have you done a micro black top style road and how thin is the material that would go over it? And is there a trial and demo that the city could do to see in an alleyway that is in terrible shape to find out how long it would last >> and not bear a lot of cost to the residents? But is there a grant available as a trial basis? We're doing some alleys that are really bad that are have been appro approved or improved in the last 25 years. >> Yeah, I think I mean that's exactly I think the question that we need to look into and potentially answer there to the point of council member Nordby, right? So, if there is a grant or if there's a pilot project that provides some funding assistance, I'm certain that we can find a road or an alley >> that hopefully is a good candidate >> to see >> see where and how long it lasts per year or two years, whatever. And then also, >> are there any plans on the preservation of doing uh putting the black sealer down and putting the gravel over on any of our streets to preserve it for another three to five years? >> I can address that specifically. Um I've been a part of a lot of conversations over the past 20 years related to chip seals or, you know, using trap rock. Um, seal code is kind of like a common industry term for that. Um, I am not a big fan. I've seen either massive failures. >> Like to throw rocks. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. I've There have been massive failures uh city of Woodbury uh to the tune of uh $2 million a year to repair pop outs and failures of seal bad seal coats over the top of asphalt roads. the going back to riskreward many many many years ago I got to the point after seeing basically how bad it is in certain communities and how expensive it is that it's just not worth using that as a a current um >> uh rehabilitation or maintenance I guess activity. So for many many years I've been very upfront with public works. It's certainly not up to me. That's just my preference. We've talked about it. Um, unbeknownst to me, but further bolstered of my opinion, the city of Maplewood kind of placed a moratorium on seal coats back to I think it was like n the '9s, 96 is what it stuck in my head. >> So, it's not just me. It's many many other communities have kind of taken a pause on that particular application or call it a technology. um used to be much more common in you know prior to the 2000s and earlier 2000s and then there is just a lot of disagreement in the community about why it was happening. But again, you know, we could talk all day long about why or is it the oil emulsion or they do it on a day that was too humid or whatever. Basically, it's just pointing fingers, but somebody gets caught holding the ball and spending a lot of money to fix these things. So I think that our personal um at least for now in terms of public works and myself our approach has been to focus on sealing the cracks. So sealing the cracks in the road or at the edge of the road. And our current specs for building roads actually builds in edge sealing like underneath the gutter pan which is where the water runs to be able to fully try to keep as much moisture as we can out of the subbase which is key, right? Especially if you've got poor soils uh like we do throughout the city. Keeping the moisture out helps to prevent uh tenting, helps to prevent salt from getting in there. Um, and I think we're certainly North St. Paul has been much more on top of um, trying to keep those cracks sealed. You know, usually standard practice is like every two to four years. You know, that that sealer which goes down is kind of like tar and they put toilet, it's literally toilet paper. They put toilet paper over the top of it. Um, and we've been doing a really really good job. And I think, you know, roads crack. Just because a road cracks doesn't mean it's a bad road. But sealing those cracks is really really important. And I think we've seen good results from that, right? And so our expectation is that by doing that and not necessarily um not saying that it's wasting money, but there are others out there that have said I'm not going to spend on seal coats. I'm going to save that money and I'm going to put it into that mill and overlay project in year 15 or year 20. and and people have done their own analyses in other cities and they feel that that's there's money ahead in that strategy as well too which is kind of similar to where we're coming at it. Um now we haven't gotten to that point where like if the first reconstruction project was done in 2014, we haven't gotten to that point where that street would be overlaid in year, you know, 15 or 20 or somewhere in there. uh I think the table in the report says maybe like 18 to 22 or something like that but uh we're not there yet but you know again in terms of the progression of the ongoing maintenance and preservation and protection of significant investment in roadways and asset management call it you know the management of these things as your as your assets as your infrastructure assets uh I would expect that you know again if we can continue that um process of maintenance that we will see better than average lifespans on our roads that have been reconstructed in recent memory. Um, and hopefully again like be money ahead because of that by using like those incremental investments over time to to hold off and prevent the next time you need to reconstruct that road. >> And Dave, excuse me. >> Um, and Dave, so we do have some roads in town that have been chip sealed. We haven't done them. There were roads that were done previously and they had been done multiple times and people would have called them in as potholes actually where these where these failed and for us going out to when we usually go out patching we blow the road with a blower, clean the dirt out of the holes, fill the holes. Well, some of these roads we can't even use a blower on because it'll come out in big sheets um for it and there's multiple layers. Yeah. So, too >> Yeah. because we we talked about that, you know, for like Morgan said for years about doing that. Does that help? It it almost actually covers up the problems and it doesn't allow you to actually, you know, repair what what is there and you actually have to be careful how you maintain it or how you try to patch that road because it, you know, how it aderes or it doesn't or over time if salt gets underneath it. Um, so I agree with Morgan, you know, with that and just talking with other cities. A lot of cities don't do it. You do still see it done out there, but from my experience, I mean, I agree with Morgan. How we're doing it now, I think, is the the best bang for the buck. >> I think our alley was sealed probably about eight, nine years ago, and um now it's starting to go to that uh pothole city. >> Yeah. And what's really hard with alleys is that we have so many roads that are bad. We we know that a lot of the alleys are bad, but it re is really hard to go into an alley when someone is like, "My road is, you know, bad." So, it it is on our radar and we're going to try to sneak some in here and there um to do it, but it's definitely >> appreciative of the roads. >> Yeah. >> I'm just I'm just happy to have blacked up in my alley. >> Yeah. So, we know, you know, and you know, along with what Morgan said with the pavement uh index scores and all the engineering stuff that goes into that. Um, also with these with these ratings, we also sit down with the people that go out and walk every inch of the roads and we talk about and yep, with our guys, we sit down with Morgan and his his group group and we have our guys have heated discussions about which road should be done next or which should be up because of the pothole. So, we do use all that information that WSB provides, but we also Morgan sits down with the people that go out and walk every inch and we kind of come up with, you know, what the next plan or where we think the next uh project should be. So, >> one thing I appreciate is the guys throwing the black top down, raking it out, and then they rolling it in so it sets in there. Yeah, >> that's huge because when you just throw it in there, track cars track it down the street, gets on their tires, and then it's It's gone within a day. >> Yep. And you will see that happening. That happens at usually at the beginning of the year. Um when we're just going out and filling like the big wheel busters or whatever and we don't have the roller out yet or we don't have the people to do that. But as we when we that summer help starts, that's when we go out and like I said, we spot do that. We do that as little as possible because that is does make a mess and people do complain about that. But >> no, I appreciate the fact >> I don't have an alley, so you got to forgive me a little bit. In North St. Paul, my understanding is heavy trucks cause a lot more damage than the passenger cars in North St. Paul. Do we allow or do we have the garbage trucks go down the alleys? Um, >> I do not allow to go down our alley because I know we only have a two two and a half inch micro base under it. Um the the garbage rig does go down the alley between Helen and Margaret. That's why one of those alleys is really bad >> and they should be shut down and all the residents should actually put their stuff on the street. >> And I guess one of the reasons why I was asking about this now is because I know we're going out for a bid for a different garbage company. Um is that something you know weighing the pros and cons? Uh is is that um universal? Is that how is that decided? There are some companies that or requirements of bids that go out that they'll say you can't have dual axle trucks. You need to have the single axle truck. So they don't bring that heavy weight because most alleys are 2 in as opposed to a road that might be four plus. So yeah, you do get issues over time with that. So that's something to look at as we're going through this process. >> All right. >> Any other questions on that? I I do want to take a moment and I want Ron to kind of talk a little bit about uh the Margaret and the first reconstruction project and he's got some some stories of of uh the number of water main breaks that have occurred in that area. um and kind of wanted him to talk about that. And then uh Ron, if you could also talk about what kind of projects you're looking at um that may need a major reconstruction for 2033 and 2035. >> Okay. Um >> is this Margaret in First >> First Avenue? >> Thank you. Just wanted to clarify. >> First Avenue. Um, so if you see in the CIP, um, you'll see like from 2030 out to 2034, it was all pavement rehabilitation and there wasn't any like major projects in there. Um, when we first started looking at this years ago, sitting down, we were because our road ratings were so low and there were so many bad roads and just talking with residents and we're thinking, how are we going to get we won't get to some of these roads for 10 years and these people are like, we want it done, you know, now or they're looking at getting it done now. So, we looked at this pavement uh rehab and going out there and trying to cover as much roads as put it down as much black top as we could get the most bang for our buck. And we knew we'd get to a point where we'd start covering up roads that probably we shouldn't or because the utilities are, you know, bad. Um and so anyway, over over the course what happened over last year, um we had a water main break on First Avenue. Um, and the water man breaks was running into one of the residents houses. And so the guy was standing in his basement, water's going into his house, and I got to tell him, "Hey, give me I got give me an hour. I got to notify people, let them know before we shut this water man down." And he was down there frantically making a dam and bucketing and doing, you know, what he could to, you know, stop this. So anyway, we got the water shut off. Um, fixed the water mane break and then we Randy and I were talking and we're like, man, we've had a lot of water mane breaks on First Avenue. And, you know, we're like, well, let's go out. We're going to the records that we have for the ones that we know. We sent the guys out looking at patches in the road. And basically from First Street to Highway 120, 1 Avenue, we went out there, we counted and with all of our records and we have 24 water mane breaks on that road >> within what period of time? >> Um I guess since I've been here. >> Okay. >> Um that the period of time that I mean so it's they've probably happened over the past I don't know 25 years >> let's say. But as I was talking to the insurance company for the resident, you know, in his house, and we didn't know where that was going to go and how that was going to work out, I woke up one night, laying in bed, and I'm thinking, at what point do I am I being negligent at not replacing a water mane on a road when there's that many water mane brakes on a road? You know, if that person came to me and said, "What's the deal, Ron? There's 24 water main brakes on this road and you are not you don't have any plans to redo this road or you know replace this road. So, um, it just got me thinking or, you know, Randy and I started talking about it and going, I don't know that we can stop doing these big projects or these these road projects with uh, you know, replacing the utilities. And there's another place in town where there's I don't know there's quite that many, but there's probably 15 on a road um, you know, in another area in the other side of town. So, just got us to talking about we really can't stop doing these full reconstruction projects. We have to address some of these problems because they're just going to keep it's just going to keep happening. You know, it shows that. So, um I know they're they're expensive to do and you know, we can say this about multiple different parts of town where, hey, we have to start working on or starting replacing these these water manes and utilities because, you know, we have to do our due diligence and be able to have a serious conversation with the residents about, you know, why, you know, you know, so we basically had WSB put together. They went and looked at doing Margaret because Margaret's a main thoroughfare. You can see all the dead ash trees that were taken off on Margaret. Um Dan made a comment. Dan comes into on Margaret every day. And we cut down a bunch of the dead ash trees with electric on Margaret. And Dan's like, "Hey, I think the road got worse when the trees got removed." It's just you noticed notice how bad the road is on there. And it's, you know, it's a main thoroughfare through town and the road is very wide. It's a, you know, it's it's expensive road. So, uh, Morgan and his crew put together some, you know, numbers for doing Margaret and then all of First Avenue. Um, and, you know, it turns into a two-year project for something that we could afford. So, that's where it would be at 2931. Um, and then out looking out further, um, you know, 7th Avenue, the rest of 7th Avenue was on for a road reconstruction project. basically um from Charles up to 120. Um but again, that's another expensive project. Um so that's an area that we're looking. And then also um up in like the the Msabi uh what are the other roads up there? >> Shi Shaunie Navajo. Um that's another area where we have a bunch of continuous water main breaks up there. So, like I said, I I think Dan brought it up or Morgan brought it up. Um, for 33, 35 or 33, 34, 35, we have to look at some of these other areas and get some, you know, rough numbers in there. But it's going to be something that I think I feel that we have to, you know, keep doing these kind of projects every other year for what we can afford, stay within what we can afford, but and do as much as we can with them because this water mane, you know, it just keeps breaking. And I, you know, I just want to show that we're doing the best that we can with what we can afford. So, >> when you did that water mane repair this past winter, did you do it as a only or is it going to be a permanent fix? So, if they went in and did that project, they wouldn't have to redo go into that guy's property. >> No. So, it was our water mane in the road. Um, so all the when we do a repair, depending on how the brake is, we put it, we call it a band-aid, but it's a b it's a basically a 15 in to 20in steel stainless steel rubber coated band-aid. It's got, you know, probably a dozen bolts and on it and, you know, and squeezes around the the repair or if we have to do a replace a piece of pipe, you know, depending on how the crack is on it. Um, but that's basically it's a repair. I don't know how many of these band-aids are in town. There's probably hundreds of them um you know throughout all the years. But when they come in to put a new water man in, that all gets replaced and then the service gets replaced um up to the the curb stop in the in the resident's yard. Dan, I don't know if I hit on everything that you >> So, circling back to that, we are patching we we're just going to use First Avenue right now because it's clearly a trouble spot. So, we're patching the water man >> and then >> fixing the the piece of the road that needs fixing. So, >> ideally what we need to be doing is take First Avenue and then Shaunie Msabi, right? Am I saying these right? um and figure out, all right, we're going to start with this project first. We're going to get the every we're going to fix all the main water manes there instead of patching it and then we're just going to continue working our way through the worst areas. >> Yep. So, these would be some of the big deciding factors that we use for where the next project area is going to be. And like I said, what's what's tough about it is that I understand each resident, you know, their 100 ft of their property, you know, is the most important, you know, in their eyes. and that road that they drive on every day is, you know, the most important in their eyes. And that's what's tough about it is that we have these things going on that's underground that no one no resident thinks about after the road is dug up and that's buried and they don't think about it again. But like I said, it really resonated with me when you know there's a resident standing there. And again, the resident was great with how we dealt with it and how the whole thing turned out. I mean, it was a a great person to deal with and very understanding for a a a really bad situation. And when you're, you know, when you start stop to think about it, like I said, that resident could come back and say, "Hey, there's been 24 breaks on this road. When are you guys going to do something about this?" And if I don't even have it on a plan or we're even talking about it, you know, at some point I I'm like, "All right, that falls back on me." you know, hey, we can't afford to do it, so you're going to have to live with it. And, you know, it's Yeah, it's just we just have to keep planning for the future, live within our means in doing it. And um just so you guys know and the residents know that there is a lot that goes into these decisions on where these projects are. There's a lot of factors in there. And we talk about it all the time. Uh Randy and I with with our guys, our crew, I mean, we have heated arguments on where the next project area should be. This road, that's ridiculous. And it's not someone there where they're like, "My parents live on this road, so I think we should do that." It's more this road's worse than that, and this, you know, so there's there's a lot that that does go into it. Um and these water manes or the utilities are a bigger factor in these in these project or in these decisions when we make you know for what roads this might be. And like I said first avenue that road is really bad. Uh the water man is really bad. Margaret it's really bad. Uh there's not a ton of water man that runs down Margaret but the road is you know really bad. And like I said that so just um you know when we're talking about these projects and uh deciding on areas or bringing up areas or picking areas you know please ask the questions if you guys are why why are you doing this? Hey you I'm sure you have all had residents my road needs to be fixed because it's so bad. Um you know ask us the questions. We'll there is a a lot of thought we just don't throw a dart at the board even though we could with a lot of the roads. Um, but you know, we'll we'll definitely give you the explanation for it. And you know, we can definitely tell you that um it's been walked. You know, Randy has walked every every inch of our pavement uh pavement uh preservation for this year. Every inch of it, multiple times. And then he'll be, you know, because we do spot curb replacement and hey, this gets taken out. We're not doing this. We're just doing this. And we do that to stay within the budget. And what about this? Oh, we can stop here. You know, so people will complain, why don't you replace my curb here and we're working within the budget that we have. >> But there is a ton of effort that goes into what we do um for spending the money that we have and we really try to maximize that as best that we can. So you guys have questions on it, I please please ask. I you know I can it's not going to be well we just thought this might be a good place we can give you some details behind it and >> I think it's helpful presenting it the way that you did tonight and letting us know about all these water main breaks. I also think it would be helpful as we continue to move forward to know all right this is the seventh water main break on first avenue in the in the within the past five years or whatever that looks like. We don't want to be beyond that. And if that's the case and we're continuing to be beyond the seven and we're getting in the 20s, then we have a real issue and that that f that street should be one of the first to get done and or what whoever is treated. It doesn't matter whatever street it is, but that should be the next concentration. >> Yep. >> Now, when you were Oh, excuse me. >> Go ahead. >> Go ahead. When you were talking about Margaret Street, was that from all the way from south down to the new addition there by that whole stretch? >> Yep. Correct. We're going to be we're going to be doing a little from uh 19th Avenue to 17th Avenue this year and our in our pavement preservation. Um that black top there can't be patched anymore. The ground is actually pushing through the black top. So, with these pavement preservations, you know, on the off years, um, from the big projects, you know, we're going to try to do some of the roads that we haven't had utility or water mane problems on, you know, water mane breaks on. Um, and, you know, to try to cover up, you know, as much as we as we or get some road replaced and, you know, hopefully that's a 10 to 15 year fix that'll buy us the time that we need. Um, you know, so we can get that pavement index score up higher. um you know and >> you know uh meet some of the people's needs you know for some of these roads that are that are bad. >> Right. Cool. >> Um I have another thing. When we're factoring in these reconstruction costs, are we evaluating areas that we want to put sidewalks or that sidewalks are being considered? And are sidewalks included in the installation of these new roads >> in in these reconstruction projects? If there's sidewalks in the in there already, um it is we're basically replacing what is there, >> you know, basically in kind >> the entire thing. So that's the sidewalk as well. Well, while we're talking about First Street, let's talk about First Avenue, let's talk about First Street. So if we're going to redo I'm just using this as an example because I know it has sidewalk. Um if you're going to do First Street, then you're going to also reconstruct the sidewalk, correct? >> Okay. So I'm that's a that's a great street to bring up. So, we just did a an overlay on that on First Street last year. >> Yep. >> And we didn't go. So, the pavement rehabilitation that we're doing, we're kind of focusing on the road and the curbs. So, unless it's a major reconstruct, we're not going to go and do the sidewalk, okay, >> at that time. So, we re overlaid the surface on First Street and we didn't do anything with the sidewalk. We did some uh spot curb repair and we did some manhole and structure repair >> and ped ramps. >> Oh, and and the and ped ramps when we go and do that, but we didn't go and do the sidewalks. Now, sidewalks, I know exactly where you're going with that. I mean, there's a lot of bad sidewalks in town. We do do spot repairs, sorry, spot repairs on some sidewalks in town um from tree ruts growing. A lot of times the sidewalks are bad. The the sidewalks that are bad around town are usually from tree roots, boulevard trees. And a lot of times when we go to do that, we have to remove a tree to repair that sidewalk because the roots are growing under it. A lot of times residents don't want the tree removed. So a lot of sidewalks are stay that way, you know, that have the big trip hazards on them because the sidewalk uh doesn't, you know, they don't want the trees removed. So for us to repair the sidewalks, but we do just do kind of spot repairs on the sidewalks. But if First Street was a full reconstruct project, all the sidewalks would have got redone on first. >> Yeah. And just to add on that, I think that's consistent with um past conversations with this council and past councils as well too, that uh for the benefit of the public, benefit of the city council to remember that if it's a full reconstruct, that's an opportunity to reset everything within the rightway, including things like sidewalks, right? But when some of these pavement preservation efforts, they from a budgetary standpoint, they're really focused on the asphalt and the quality of the roads. And if there were additional uh budget that were available that maybe were associated with concrete or with sidewalks, that could be a future consideration. But really the way that the program is built right now is just to focus for p from a pavement preservation is to uh maybe do some spot repairs but not look at new sidewalks or not look at major sidewalk improvements but we are committed to making ADA improvements at the intersections with like ped ramps. That is something that typically will go along with not necessarily a maintenance overlay project. Maybe sometimes we might do that, but with kind of a like our 2024 street maintenance uh project, that was more of a robust overlay project. And we did have some ped ramp improvements, some ADA improvements, some spot concrete uh curb and gutter repair, that sort of thing. But again, just focusing on the asphalt, not necessarily out beyond the curb and gutter, just kind of the roadway itself. >> Do we have a sidewalk preservation plan? We do not currently have a sidewalk preservation plan. That's an opportunity for the future. Um, and I guess I can't speak to whether or not you even have a line item for sidewalk. >> No, >> no, it's just a m it's a maintenance item that we we use. We don't have a sidewalk plan that I know of. >> I'd like to make a recommendation that we consider something like that. >> Yeah. It's not to say it's non-existent because it's part of our 2040 comp plan that when we get into areas where we need to make improvements for uh especially for children and our own schools and our own parks to be able to have that transportation for that without them having to go into the street to have that that has been talked about many times at the council level and that is something that is looked at at these jobs. >> Are we also doing it down at uh by Casey? There were some sidewalks that ended in the middle of nowhere. Now we're extending them. >> That's correct. It didn't even make a full loop into like the park. So, >> now we're fixing things along. >> Correct. And that and that was identified in the comprehensive plan as Brian mentioned. Yeah. So, that is a part of it. Um, but in terms of like rating or evaluating sidewalks, existing sidewalks similar to what uh we're doing for the roads, that hasn't been broached yet. >> And is that something that we can start visiting? I'm not sure where some bad sidewalks are in the city. If there's a not even a section, there could be just a square itself that needs to be fixed or that needs to be lifted because it's sagged or whatever it is. >> Yeah. I I don't have a specific like line item for that. Um it's just I use out of uh like the maintenance money that we have. We usually look at that towards you know fall and then see if we can go out and and do some of those spot repairs that are really bad that are really bad. Mhm. >> Notice on the one Margaret, you're talking 19th to 17th. There's a I forget the name of the house on the corner there with the horse tire upper. Their sidewalk on that Margaret side has must have been a lot of tree roots over that time because you're up and down quite a bit. >> Yeah, there's a there's a lot of um bad sidewalks in town. But both the Margaret Street and the First Avenue areas that we've been discussing here, those would be potentially full reconstructs. And so that would encompass some sidewalk work uh as well once we get to that point. >> Are they on both sides of the street or just one side? >> Just one. >> Margaret's on just one. >> Yeah, >> Margaret's on one. Yeah. Right. Okay. West side. Okay. I'd like to make a recommendation that we talk about the sidewalks further at another time, but and having some sort of preservation plan. >> Thank you, Morgan. Thank you, Ron. >> All right, we have a little bit of extra time um here. >> Oh, thanks, Dan. >> So, uh yeah, I didn't know where our bathroom was. I wasn't going to let you go quite yet. um you know so the next big categories in the capital improvement plan are facilities is about 17% and then vehicles and equipment is about um 12 and a half% um our next meeting we will start to get into some of those other components but for for tonight I just want to bring to your attention I won't take the last 14 minutes but I'll just take a little bit just to draw your eyes to some of the bigger components that are um that are in um our CIP and that is and and from what I've been hearing um these numbers really should should have been adjusted when all the department heads um had their opportunities to uh review and complete um the plan. Um for equipment, there's a there's a a sizable one in 2030 and that's the the ladder vehicle for the fire department. You know, it it's um out here in 2030 at under, you know, $1.6 $6 million. Um so that that's a a huge one. The remaining kind of components in there are, you know, the plows, the all of the vehicles. Um we're seeing a pretty consistent, you know, um public works, many of their vehicles are 10 to 15 year uh replacement cycles. Um I think our uh police is at a six-year uh recycling piece, but that's one of the big um gotchas. um coming up. Um that's in that vehicle and equipment category. When we look at utility infrastructure preservation, um again, I'm hearing um just recently um after this that the the numbers probably significantly higher than this, but there's the new uh tower park water tower um and it's in 2028 at $4.3 million. Um, and I've kind of heard that that number probably should be higher than that. But again, I'm just trying to draw your attention to some of the bigger components that are really driving um some of those because we covered a lot. you know, 50% underneath the street and utilities. And clearly, I mean, from the discussion of city council, I got the the feeling you completely understood the need of of that infrastructure of the streets and then going even beyond that component and absolutely fantastic suggestion that we really do need to start having a line in there for uh sidewalk preservation. In addition to it, we're making that investment. we want to make sure that it's it's good and we want to make sure that it's safe and that we're preserving it to the best of our abilities. Um, and then when we start looking at, you know, kind of the parks and the playgrounds and, you know, there's a number of significant components that are in there right now, there's the 1.1 million for Third Street uh concept design, a downtown open space in 2028 of just under 800,000. um you're seeing in 2027 their flex field at Mcnite of just under 900,000. So there's some big huge items that are that are in that playground. Um and then um you know the the um the next biggest facility or next biggest category at just under 17% is the building and facility improvements. And um you know there's three major facilities. They're all pretty much in the same age group. Um but um so you'll see some of the big expenses that are that are there, you know, between the public works, city hall, um and the community center. So I kind of want to bring your attention to some of those bigger items. We in our next meeting, we'll be covering into those and having more of a discussion and we'll have other department heads here. Ron will be here, of course, because Ron is responsible for so much. Uh so Ron will be here to kind of discuss some of those other components. But I wanted to draw to your attention that we do have a number of them that are really big drivers into that cost. Um because that'll be we'll try to get covering the next 50% of what the CIP so you have your um understanding. Now kind of want to give everybody at least a fivem minute break. So it's 6:20 right now. Um, I I'd really like to hear from each one of you your thoughts right now just on the CIP. We've presented, you know, $50 million worth, half of half of the the 10-year CIP. Kind of want to hear your honest um thoughts, feedback. Um, >> it's needed and I appreciate that Ron is bringing up these water main breaks. This is he's acknowledging it. He's going out there. Residents are seeing it. res he's facing and his staff are facing these residents. Um so to be here tonight and share that I I appreciate you and I appreciate that you woke up in the middle of the night we're thinking about it. I mean it's you our employees have the best interest for the city in mind and um it's important that the public sees that as well. So thank you Morgan for being here. I mean, having uh the graphs, and I don't know if this is I know we've published this in the past on the website. I don't know if it still exists on the website, but I I think having it still post on the website is um is good. >> And overall, these, you know, numbers are staggering. We have to take them in. I mean this is a lot of a lot of things that are coming up in the next 10 years that we have to have to keep the city running and focus of course on you know public safety, roads and you know infrastructure. Those are the three main things and we say 50% the roads and we got the rest of it still firetruck we got the other things that are coming up. So, it's definitely, you know, when we look at it, there's a lot of decisions to be made and there's a lot of things that go into this budget in the city. And we appreciate, you know, all the information to go out 10 years to, you know, to get an idea of what's coming. You know, things will change here and there like you said, water tower maybe for, you know, and also fire truck, you know, how much they gone up, you know, 20, 30 for the ladder truck, maybe more, but at least we have them on the radar. So, and we're trying to focus on try to do the best we can. >> Well, and Dan, like you said, if we need if we need to inflate these numbers, especially with the water tower around the corner, we need to look at that now. >> Yes, absolutely. Yep. >> Other comments or thoughts? >> I'm in agreement with starting roads, the ones that are worse. Get rid of them. get rid of them to get them done and proceed year to year to year and just start work and work our way through it and follow the plan that you've got and Margaret Street is one of the number one roads that needs to be done and also first avenue the first street firstly avenue on that one should be done with that many water mane breaks and those residents are all deserving of a new road and black concrete curbing and sidewalk if they have it and then we'll go from there each year after that. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. And I really appreciate all the detail um that you give us and also that you send us so we can you know dive into it. I appreciate that detail. Thank you. >> Yeah. So that that'll conclude this this section uh for tonight in the workshop of 50%. Remember moving forward with this plan on just the streets is a 3.2% levy increase >> every year for the next 10 years. >> So with that I thank you very much >> and you look too I mean you know when you have >> it's that way but it's it's it's sharing for everybody when it comes to that you know because right now people were getting you know $8,000 you know for you know adding that plus they're paying interest on you know assessments and things like that. So, it's one of those things where it's spread out, but we're getting a lot done and we've accomplished a lot in the last year. >> Yes, we have. And and I personally want to thank uh Morgan and and Ron and and Randy. Um I get to hear these stories and I wanted to hear I wanted him to bring some of those stories in front of city council because they really did have um they they really hit me. They was a quite of a a big magnitude especially with the water main break. So, I wanted him to to tell those stories in front of city council. so you understand what's happening on a day in dayout basis. So I thank you very much for your time. Look forward to the next meeting and uh we'll try to cover the other 50% of uh the CIP. And then in the first meeting in September, we'll have some options of some items that we need to talk about for um decision from city council to get prepared for that maximum levy. And then in the second meeting in September, we'll set that maximum levy. Doesn't mean we're done with the budget, >> right? because we've got plenty of time. It doesn't become totally approved until um sometime in December. So, I thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Cand. >> I have a call for adjournment and we'll have a fivem minute break before we start. >> Some moved. >> So, moved. Council member Schwear. >> Second. >> Second. Council member McKenzie. All those in favor say I. I. See you in five.