Based on the context provided and the dialogue within the transcript, here is the formatted transcript with speaker names assigned. [0:12] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** All right, it is 6:00. Um, so I'm going to open this special meeting, city council public hearing, and uh, to sign in, and we do the Pledge of Allegiance. [Music] Please. [0:35] [Music] [0:45] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Right. [0:51] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Pledge to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. [1:10] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Well, first of all, thanks everyone for coming tonight. I really appreciate that. This is what we were hoping for: we have a large input and hopefully a diverse input um, to help us make the decision that we're going to have to make. So, appreciate you coming, thank you. Um, to start with, I'm going to just kind of go over the Rules of Order um, that the city operates on, just so that everyone knows what will be expected tonight. We do use the Robert’s Rules of Order; that's how all the city uh, meetings are held by. Um, the sign-in sheet—hope everyone did sign in um, that—and we will be calling people in the order that you signed in. With that, you must be recognized to speak. In other words, we'll call the person up to uh, give their opinion or discussion or questions, and uh, we expect everyone else to allow them to speak, not to interrupt them. If you have a question or if you have a comment and you're not in the list to speak, raise your hand. I will recognize some, but you have to be recognized to speak; that's part of the Robert's Rules. So we appreciate that if you would please follow that. We ask you not to interrupt uh, the people that are at the podium just so that the meeting flows well and they can get their uh, opinion or questions answered. We appreciate that very much. The public hearing is for the citizens of Moose Lake, the taxpayers, business owners, um, anyone that owns uh, property and pays taxes and they live in the town. So those are the people that we are going to ask to speak tonight. That's input that we're asking for, and those are the people that will be recognized. All others—I know that there's others here that are not citizens or taxpayers or do not run a business in Moose Lake—if you have an opinion you want to express to us, we ask that you please call the city office, email the city office, or come in and talk to the city office. We appreciate if you please follow that; that way it gives the citizens of Moose Lake a chance here to express their opinion and have their questions answered. Also, so this flows along—there are quite a few people here um, in the process that we've used in the past, and I'm going to stick with it. We do use this during a regular city council meeting: please keep your comments or questions to three minutes when you come to the podium. We have a lot of people. If we do three minutes for each person, you're talking about 20 people in an hour. Um, time will go quick, and uh, we will get as many people as possible to express their opinion. Um, if it goes into two hours, we hope to get everybody that wants to speak a chance to speak. Also, this is not a debate; it is a public hearing to hear your input. Um, the Council will not respond like in a debate; they'll answer questions, and uh, we want to keep it that way. Um, the debate, actually the big discussion, will happen at the time of voting of which direction to go. Um, that's when the Council will go through that process of making a decision and giving their opinions and questioning each other. I know in past public hearings I've had several of them here through the years—this is my 20th year as Mayor—so I've been through a number of them. And if there are any personal attacks that happen, I will halt them immediately, and if the person does not stop, we will ask them to leave. Um, this is just the process of normal Robert's Rules of operation, and that's what we follow. Also, a little information: the city budget has been passed. Um, we do have a budget for the Police Department no matter what direction that the city Council approves. We do have the funds; we have uh, and that budget was passed in December. Um, the reason we're doing this is due diligence, not because the city is unfunded. We have a good reserve; I think the last that uh, in my memory, we're at a—we have a nine-month reserve. So the city is in great financial condition, and in our budget, we do have projects scheduled and normal operation for the year. But the Council wants to do their due diligence because of the rising cost of the department. Last year we were budgeted at uh—was it the $650,000 area? And to do the same department with five officers um, and the admin staff, 24/7 coverage, in one year it rose to over 900,000. Um, there's many reasons that that happened. Um, the bottom line is that that's where it is. So we knew that we needed to do due diligence when it arrived at that large amount. Um, it is such an important department that we realized just to make changes quickly or make cuts or whatever does not do justice to the community. Whatever change we make, we want to make sure that the community has a process in place and has a venue where they can uh, speak publicly one way or the other. That will definitely help the Council with what direction to go. So remember, this is a budget item; it is uh, um, just a large increase, and we want to do due diligence for the taxpayers. And when I say City, I'm not talking about the office or the employees here; I'm talking about all the citizens of Moose Lake. They're the real city; that's the City of Moose Lake. Um, it's just semantics. Um, I want to make sure everybody understands that we are looking for your input to be judicial with your tax dollars. Just an idea on talking about tax dollars: a 1% tax increase that the Council passes brings in about $11,254. So if you look to just generate, let's say, $100,000 for any one department—and it could be any department—you're talking about between a 7 and 8% tax increase on every single piece of property. That is why it is so important that this decision is made in a, to me, well-thought-out manner, and we look at all the different options and do our due diligence with it. Um, if you're talking, I would say over let's say 200,000, you're probably talking about a 14-15% tax increase. That's a huge jump for any household or business; it's huge. Um, we are a very, very small tax base. Between 29 and 30% of the city is taxable; about 70% is non-taxable. Half the property in the city is owned by the State of Minnesota across the lake with their two facilities, and we add in the school district, the hospital—the hospital complex, I should say now—the churches, and the city parks. It puts us at between 29 and 30% taxable, and that's a very small tax base. See, I think we have covered it all. Um, just to kind of go over those so you know how our operation is. So at this time, I'll turn it over to the City Administrator for the introduction. Oh, technical item we have to do: we have to approve the agenda. To the City Council, do I have a motion to approve the agenda? [11:08] **Douglas Juntunen (Council Member):** So moved. [11:09] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Do I have a second? [11:10] **Walter Lower III (Council Member):** Second. [11:11] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Any questions, discussion? Hearing none, all in favor say "aye." [11:17] **Council Members:** Aye. [11:18] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Opposed? Motion carried. [11:23] **Ellissa Owens (City Administrator):** Good evening. Uh, for those that I have not had the pleasure of engaging with, uh, my name is Ellissa Owens. I am the City Administrator for the City of Moose Lake. I stand before you today filled with gratitude and appreciation for the vibrant, engaged community we, as city staff and officials, are privileged to serve. It is truly an honor to witness the dedication and passion that each of you bring to the table, ensuring that our city continues to thrive and prosper. Today we gather as active participants in a crucial decision-making process. This will shape the future of law enforcement services in this community. In that, let us remember that the heart of this community lies in its people. The diverse perspectives, experiences, and insights collectively form the foundation upon which we build a safer and more secure future. My role this evening is not just administrative; it is a commitment to facilitating a fair and inclusive process, ensuring that your voice is heard and your opinion is valued. Our community engagement is a testament to the strength of our democracy and the power of local government. I encourage you to express your thoughts openly, for it is through this dialogue that we find the best path forward. As taxpayers, your insight is not only welcomed, it is essential. Let us approach the public hearing with a spirit of collaboration and mutual respect, acknowledging that the decisions ahead will ripple through the fabric of this community. Thank you for your commitment and your passion and your invaluable contributions to this important discussion. I look forward to a constructive and enlightening dialogue as we collectively work towards the betterment of the City of Moose Lake. Thank you. I think the next item is the discussion on the presentation on the two proposals—one proposal that the city passed the budget and a proposal from the Sheriff's Office. So with this slide, I'd like to take a moment to provide additional details surrounding the history of the Department's budget and where we are currently. Um, here on the slide is some historical data on the Moose Lake Police Department budget. This data ranges from 2015 to current and even the 2024 preliminary budget figure of $894,000. This was an increase of 28% over 2023, which is what initiated this assessment process. In recent years, City staff and officials have recognized the department's budget pattern of increases. Um, there's some examples of corrective action that have taken place prior to this process: consideration of a police district, a working chief, dynamic scheduling modifications, use of part-time police officers, budget modifications (specifically the 2024 squad car purchase was delayed), and new hiring and retention strategies. So all of these metrics have um, come to fruition and have been worked through prior to where we are at today. So the 2024 preliminary budget figure was $894,778. Um, this unveiled that 87% of the City of Moose Lake's property tax levy in totality would be allocated to the Police Department if no budget modifications occurred. This would leave the city with the remaining 13% of the total property tax levy to support 15 other general fund departments. In addition, the city has $124,333 of general fund debt service obligation in 2024. Local government aid would be relied upon to fund the remaining balance of the 15 general fund departments as well as the city's uh, general fund debt service obligation. So the City Council engaged in an assessment process um, looking at scheduling, staffing, budget, um, health insurance, and other contributing factors. This analysis led to the assessment of three different options for operating the Moose Lake Police Department. Option one was with a police chief, four full-time officers, and a part-time administrative staff—that is the figure that was shared with the preliminary budget assessment. Option two was a police chief, three full-time officers, and a part-time admin, and that was—excuse me—$791,200. Option three um, after analysis, was selected for the operating model for the Moose Lake Police Department in 2024. As Mayor Michalski mentioned, um, the budget was passed in December with the $687,500 budget for the Moose Lake Police Department. It is funded at this time. The intent of this slide is to provide visibility to all general fund department budgets. Um, I'd like to highlight that even with the selection of option three, the Police Department will be the highest funded general fund department in 2024 for the City of Moose Lake. Public safety is important, and it is prioritized by the City Council. Um, you may have also noticed the absence of some other city departments on that slide. Um, so enterprise funds such as water, sewer, liquor, motor vehicles—these are not part of the general fund. Um, there's been discussion in the community about the transfer of funds between the two or the use of general fund monies for other infrastructure projects and other funds, um, and it simply does not work like that. The intent of the enterprise funds are to be self-sufficient. So let's take a look at a breakdown of option three. So as mentioned previously, there's one police chief, two police officers, and a part-time admin staff. The operating budget itself is $567,500. Now with that, we have um, a duty disability health insurance obligation budget that will remain in place regardless of what option that City Council selects. That budget is $120,000 for 2024. In addition, throughout this process, the Council’s been challenged to look at other costs that are associated with operating the department that might not be sitting within that department's budget. So for example, what you see on the screen is a list of additional costs that are true operating costs of the City Police Department not included in the figure above. So for example, um, there's other miscellaneous costs—these are essentially contingency funds that are required for staffing the department in 2024. There are legal costs—so we took a three-year average of police department related legal costs, and that figure is $22,000 annually. And we looked at worker’s comp premium. Now, legal costs and worker’s comp premium are currently a part of the general fund but within a different department. So we're pulling those figures out and then adding them into the cost of operation with the assessment of true operating costs. The worker’s comp premium—we took a three-year average. The number that you see on the slide, the $67,400, that is the um, that is with the experience modification factor associated with it. So that is the increased amount in addition to our premium we are paying on an annual basis based on claims that we have. And then it is also important to look at revenues. So our revenues and our expenditures are completely separated within our general fund budget, and the police state aid, fingerprinting activities, forfeit towing, things of that nature provide a little revenue back to the general fund. Those are not specifically identified to the Police Department because they can't be, but they are a part of the factor. So we're adding back in $46,500 back into the equation um, just to make sure we account for revenue generated by the department. The total cost um, as far as operation for this particular option is $792,500. [A mock schedule was presented]. Currently, the Police Department has a police chief. With that, the chief would work 40 hours a week um, and eight hours a day. Now, this particular schedule shows that it's Monday through Friday; it doesn't have to be that way, but it's an 8-hour day, 5 days a week. That would leave two open shifts and not full coverage of the 12-hour shifts that we normally work within the department for the um, other officers. Again, this shows coverage for the nighttime. So with that, we would have as it currently sits um, two alternating nighttime officers; they work 12-hour shifts, four on, three off. That essentially provides coverage for the nighttime shifts. Now with that being said, it's really important that we address that this is a mock schedule. It does not reflect open shifts for things like paid leave, sick time, things of that nature. Even with the coverage displayed in this mock schedule, that doesn't mean that those shifts will always be covered. I just want to make sure we're all aware of that. So now we'll take a look at the um, Carlton County Sheriff's Office breakdown. So the City Council's due diligence uh, with the taxpayer in mind led to the engagement with the Carlton County Sheriff's Office. Uh, the city requested uh, that the Sheriff's Office provide information and a proposal for subcontracting for law enforcement services in the city. This proposal is for four deputies. Deputies who are dedicated to the City of Moose Lake. As we break down this, we're looking at a subcontracting proposal amount of $531,250. Again, this is for four deputies and a clerical. Through these contract discussions, a police state aid credit of $25,000 was established, a phone/fiber/copier credit of $4,500 was established, and then a one-time vehicle and equipment credit of $57,000 was established. In addition um, the county upon request has communicated that there are other services that the City of Moose Lake would have access to within the proposal. Um, these services do not have a—they're negotiated as part of the proposal and do not have extra monies attached to them. These are things like training costs, overtime, shift differential, evidence room management, investigations, court-related overtime, supervision, and a city council liaison. In its totality, the Carlton County Sheriff's Office proposal is $544,900. With that being said, we will still have a duty disability health insurance budget of $120,000. Adding that back in, this option of law enforcement service for the city would cost $664,000. There's a mock schedule provided for this or for this particular policing option um, it does display that all shifts are covered because the deputies also work 12-hour shifts. So with four deputies, theoretically you would have coverage day and night. Now it's just as important to highlight with this particular option, this does not reflect open shifts for paid leave, sick leave, etc. So not every shift will be covered as in the last scenario, but the mock schedule essentially provides that. Here's another view of the two policing options uh, that the City Council is considering side by side. So you can see the scheduling differences; you can see the the um, number of officers versus the number of deputies and the totals associated with such. I think it's important that I highlight that the um, health insurance budget, the duty disability health insurance budget, is included in um, both options: the City of Moose Lake Police Department and the Carlton County Sheriff's Office proposal as well. So this concludes the presentation portion. [25:02] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Thank you, Administrator. Before I uh, go on to the open discussion um, Sheriff Lake, did you see any discrepancies or anything you want to add to the presentation? [25:15] **Kelly Lake (Carlton County Sheriff):** Not at this time. I'll be available for questions as they arise. [25:19] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** So there will be some. Appreciate that, thank you very much. Um, now the public hearing. Um, this is a discussion for the public. Taylor, you have the list. We need a motion first. [25:52] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** First, we need a motion to uh, open the public hearing. [25:56] **Douglas Juntunen (Council Member):** So moved. [25:57] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Do I have a second? [25:58] **Walter Lower III (Council Member):** Second. [25:59] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** All in favor say "aye." [26:02] **Council Members:** Aye. [26:03] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Opposed? Motion carried. Taylor, you read the first. [26:15] **Taylor Hansberry (Deputy Clerk):** Absolutely. If I don't pronounce your name correctly, please feel free to correct me. I have Dale Heaton. [26:21] **Dale Heaton (Public Speaker):** Hi. Uh, my name is Dale Heaton. For those of you who don't know me, uh, a little history on myself: I was a State Trooper for 30 years and following that, I uh, joined the Moose Lake Police Department and of which I was a member of for many years. Of the last 11 uh, I was Chief. And during that time, to start with I'd like to say I've known Kelly, our Sheriff, since she's 18 years old. I have very high regard for her as well as the rest of the department. All those years I was associated with them uh, we had nothing but good relations back and forth. Uh, it's been a while since I've been out of the loop, but I suspect it's still the same, at least I hope it is. But having said that, I want to—my purpose of being here this evening is to give my two cents on why I think that we should retain our own police department. Moose Lake had a police department since back in the 1930s. Uh, as a matter of fact, I personally have met every one of those officers since that time—that tells you how old I am! But anyway, they had a one-man department for quite a long time and then went to a two-man, then to a three-man, and when I was Chief, a four-man. And uh, obviously you had gaps in the schedule; uh, we had people on call, but it pretty much worked. Uh, but there are things you can do to fill those gaps uh, by part-timers. Not totally fill it, but you can designate a couple nights a week—this is assuming you have a three-man department—you can designate a couple nights a week where you’re going to have somebody out all night during burglar hours, which is generally like 1:00 to 4:00 in the morning. And uh, change it up every week; one time it's Tuesday/Friday, the next time it's Thursday and Monday, so the burglars never know when you're out there and when you're not. But it all boils down to uh, you can only afford to do what you can afford to do. Uh, which is part of the whole country—we spend more than we make. Uh, there's certain things that we have to have, and uh, that's police protection. The thing I like about a local department, and I fear that losing it is that "Hometown touch" that I like to call it, that you get from your local people. And it's derived from people that have been there a long time and have offered a good service. People trust you, you're fair with them, and it's going to come home to roost and you try to accomplish something uh, they're going to help you. That's assuming you have good people, and uh, I don't know that you'll always have that rapport with the—I suspect it to be a much more of a revolution of people coming in way more so than a police department that's dedicated. So, I think my three minutes are up. [29:56] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Thank you. It is—it’s appreciated, thank you. [30:10] **Taylor Hansberry (Deputy Clerk):** Thank you. Okay, next up I have Daniel Doie. [30:13] **Dan Doie (Public Speaker):** Uh, my name is Dan Doie and I want to begin with uh, I want you to know that police work is a tough profession. It is not for everyone, and I truly respect those who have chosen to wear the badge, past and present. Now, my wife and I moved to Moose Lake about 10 years ago. Prior to living here, I had approximately a 26-year career in law enforcement. I began by working for a few years for the City of Virginia up on the Iron Range as a patrol officer. I retired as a patrol sergeant with the St. Louis County Sheriff's Department. My first assignment with the St. Louis County Sheriff Department was in a contract city of Aurora, Minnesota. In my experience there, it worked well. Uh, a little history there: there are two, or there were two cities up on the Range that were contracted by the Sheriff's Department. One was Mountain Iron and one was the City of Aurora. Uh, my understanding is, as of a month ago anyway, Mountain Iron still has continued to contract when—I’m thinking it's probably about 50 years' worth. Uh, Aurora has consolidated with White Lakes and they have uh, formed a public safety division, so that's that's where those two were. Those were the two contract towns. Now as far as the law enforcement situation in Moose Lake: if the information that I uh, is—that it was reported—is correct, Sheriff Lake was approached about contracting with the city to provide police protection and if interested, was asked to submit a plan to the city. My understanding is that the Sheriff has presented a plan that would dedicate four full-time deputies uh, to the city and they would work out of the current Police Department facility. The Sheriff would take over the task of maintaining law enforcement in the city and also accept the responsibility of any future liabilities. This would be provided at a cost considerably less than the current proposed city budget. Consistent, quality law enforcement for the citizens of Moose Lake at a lower cost, in my opinion, is something that I think the city should seriously consider. I understand that change is difficult. I hope the city can put emotions aside and make a decision based on facts that is best for the residents of the city. Thank you. [32:48] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** All right. Benny Cru, is that you? Cru? Okay, perfect. [33:22] **Benny Cru (Public Speaker):** Okay um, I'm writing to—or talking—to support the local police. Uh, they connect with local city administration; they connect with our community residents. They learn about the suspicious people so they can keep us safe by knowing their lifestyle and keeping an eye on their social behaviors. They are able to observe and inform the community of environmental issues to keep us safe. Response times are very quick. I've had to use the police uh, three times since I've been here. Uh, hiring out-of-town police force issues that uh, I—I’m thinking about—are: unaware of the local socialization groups, the good guys versus the bad guys. Different shift officers on a uh, regular basis can be confusing um, and little action may take place to keep us safe. What are their shifts and what are their responsibilities? We need extra help um, I really supported local police. You know, they—they've been uh, very helpful to me over the years and uh, my family in the city. And I always tell them—it’s just something kind of funny—just park in my driveway and within uh, uh, two hours you'll get them once [laughter]. Thank you. [34:44] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Lori Westmarland? How are you feeling? [35:01] **Lori Westmarland (Public Speaker):** Maybe. Yeah, I put "maybe." I have questions that um, I wanted to ask. Also sorry, uh, Lori Westmarland. I work for a business, not the actual resident; I live um, about 3/10 of a mile outside of the city. So um, my question: I am in support of the local police department. I want to know if something happens to them, are they automatically hired by sheriff troopers? Does that happen, that they automatically have a job, that they don't lose their jobs? [35:41] **Kelly Lake (Carlton County Sheriff):** I cannot automatically hire them. What I have told the city is that I will guarantee them all an interview in our process. We have a a very robust hiring process that all of my employees have to go through, but I will guarantee them an interview, which not everybody is guaranteed. [36:03] **Lori Westmarland (Public Speaker):** Okay. And then when we—if we have um, Sheriff—if they get a call outside of the city, do other sheriffs take that call or will they—will the deputies go to another call that's outside? [36:18] **Kelly Lake (Carlton County Sheriff):** Mr. Mayor, can I come up there so everybody can hear? [36:20] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** You should have had a setup so you don't have to come every time, but yeah, please. [36:26] **Kelly Lake (Carlton County Sheriff):** I could use the exercise, I'm good. I'm okay here. So I think the question was, if there is a call for service outside of the city limits, will the deputies that are assigned to the City of Moose Lake go to that call? As a matter of routine, no, they will not. Deputies that are out working for the county would be the ones that would respond to that. Now having said that, if it is an emergency call um, if—if, you know, that is a very critical um, call, yes they could go because we want to get the nearest law enforcement officer there. I mean, for example, if it was a crime in progress, a burglary in progress, a vicious assault in progress, whatever it might be, we would then have that deputy that is in the city, if they are not tied up in another priority city call, um, back up the deputies out into the township. And that is not any different than how we've been operating for many, many, many years. Um, all law enforcement in the State of Minnesota has mutual aid agreements, and we rely upon each other to be able to back each other up for things like that. And then it allows us to have more law enforcement response to critical incidents like that. So you may see a trooper that's going to show up, you may see you know, a deputy that'll show up um, or it could be—I'm sure those of you that live in the township have seen a city of Moose Lake officer out in your township, and that is why. But as a matter of routine, they would not be doing that. It would be assigned to the other deputies that answer, yes. [38:00] **Lori Westmarland (Public Speaker):** Thank you. And I mean personally, I see the city officers working in concert with our our county deputies because everybody just works together. And I'm just—I don't want to see the city lose the police department and working in concert with the deputies because they have their jobs and the troopers have their jobs and the city has their jobs. And having less officers doing all the jobs um, it just... and kids, you know, I got a bunch of family kids at the school and yes, everybody—they will be there—but having the local... you can wave as you're going down the road, know them, come into the business... or when you call 911. And having the the deputies have their jobs and the local peace officers have their jobs... so I just think that not losing a local police department would be a positive. Okay, thank you. [39:27] **Ellissa Owens (City Administrator):** Sheriff Kelly Lake um, would you be willing to share any details on um, what the um staffing would look like for the deputies as far as if it would consistently be the same deputies or how that would work for the Sheriff's Office? [39:38] **Kelly Lake (Carlton County Sheriff):** Um, yes, thank you. So um, our proposal, we would have four deputies that are assigned full-time to the City of Moose Lake, as if they were Moose Lake officers, just like you get now. So you would get to know them um, you know, in the schools, you'd see them around the schools, you'd see them around the businesses, you'd see them around the communities. This is not anything that is new in the State of Minnesota, having the Sheriff contract for local police departments, um, but it it is newer to our office. However, we do have one contract that we have had since about 2015 with Thompson Township and we have one deputy that is assigned there full-time. So that deputy, you know, one of their focuses that they wanted as a township was on the school. So that deputy spends a lot of time with the school and the kids and around around there. So um, that is something that you know, we would absolutely... it would not be a list of rotating deputies through there; it would be deputies that are assigned just to the city and that would be their full-time job. Thank you. [40:42] **Taylor Hansberry (Deputy Clerk):** Name please? Yes, I've got Douglas. [40:52] **Douglas (Public Speaker):** Does my three minutes count from now or should I get up? [Laughter]. [41:20] **Douglas (Public Speaker):** I appreciate the comments that were said about... oh, I'm sorry. Um, will the Sheriff's Department be adding new officers to what you have now? [41:51] **Kelly Lake (Carlton County Sheriff):** We don't have the staff complement to to be able to fulfill this contract with four additional deputies, so we would have to add staff to be able to accomplish that. [42:04] **Douglas (Public Speaker):** So then are Carlton County taxes...? [42:07] **Ellissa Owens (City Administrator):** Well no, because that's what this proposal is why the city would be paying for that. [42:15] **Douglas (Public Speaker):** Okay, thank you. The other thing is, does the city own the Ice Arena? [42:25] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Yes. [42:26] **Douglas (Public Speaker):** And I guess my next question is, why? People that voted it in probably I don't know, 30 years ago, longer... [42:36] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** It was uh, voted in back then, and it has been in the city ever since, and uh, that was the wish of the people at the time, and the city has not had any reason to sell it or nobody brought forward to do so. [42:50] **Douglas (Public Speaker):** Okay. Um, and it is well used as you see, hundreds of youth every... [42:53] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** No, I understand that it's good for the hotels and everything else around here and the people that serve food. But maybe the city should—shouldn’t own the arena; maybe it should be a private thing; maybe it should be the hockey arena. I mean, this is one thing that’s not for the main reason. [43:18] **Douglas (Public Speaker):** Um, the problem that I see, first of all, law enforcement is very hard to fill jobs, isn't it? [43:24] **Kelly Lake (Carlton County Sheriff):** It is more difficult than it was in the past, yes. [43:28] **Douglas (Public Speaker):** And with everything that's going on, how do we know how soon they can fill those positions? And then like these gentlemen here, you know, when you start taking away from the city, you're not going to get them back again. And to have someone qualified as a law enforcement that's willing to do his job... because most people unfortunately what we have today is the shooters, okay? And with the shooters, everybody's running away from the bullets as the law enforcement is running toward. And I just feel that we should take a look. It may be some other options; I don't know what they are. Again, you know, this is the first time I looked at this, but I think—I mean, I'm in favor of keeping it, but I don't know. I don't want my taxes to keep going up either. So it's hard to maintain officers. I don't know how many—how fast we go through ours already, you know—but it's hard to maintain them. [44:22] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Historically, we've kind of been a training facility for somebody else. We do hire in the past a lot of young in training and after so many years they move on; could be a county, it could be anywhere in the state or State Patrol. And uh, um, we can't blame them; they get paid more. We're a small community; we can't match the wage that that uh, bigger cities or counties or states can make. Um, so traditionally it happened. We did try to bump it up a few years back, but um, that can be eaten up. Cost of living um, inflation can eat that up real quick. And it has—it has already, and that—that’s kind of what’s brought this forward to everyone. You heard increasing 1% um, everybody in the whole city, every business, brings in about 14,000. With all the state property that we don't get taxes from—I know, do they contribute to the law enforcement end of it? But yeah, we respond if they need something up that's going on up there, I guess. And that is—that is like like Kelly the Sheriff, I should say, statewide. Um, they support each other and and they have to; they need backup. Um, it's a lifesaver, kind of like fire departments. They're not going to not respond to a neighbor that asks for help. It's a safety... [45:58] **Douglas (Public Speaker):** No, I understand that, but at the same time even going back to like the Cloquet recent shooting, if your Sheriffs would have been in town here, he would have been called up there, right? [46:11] **Kelly Lake (Carlton County Sheriff):** Yes, okay. So during that time again, no coverage. If I clarify that, if we had someone dedicated to the city, they would not leave the city to go up to Cloquet for that. They would not do that; they would stay in the city. [46:27] **Douglas (Public Speaker):** All right, thank you. [46:32] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Thank you. [46:38] **Stan Heaton (Public Speaker):** Very well. Good evening everybody and thank you for taking on this task of uh, the city and and uh, protecting us here. Uh, I'm going to give my support to any of the Council that supports keeping this uh, Department here in town locally. Um, one like, you know, uh, once you would change something like this, it's such a huge change; it's going to be very difficult to bring it back. So it’s going to need a lot of careful thought in doing this because I don't see how you could even purchase all the vehicles and equipment and everything to uh, bring it back at once; you'd have to phase it in. So that would be a really—a challenge. The other thing I see you know, I'm giving you permission to raise my taxes. And and like we know, you don't get that much with just your taxes. So you guys are going to have to make—gals are going to have to make—some serious cuts throughout the city and we're going to lose services because of it because there's—there’s no choice, and I realize that's out there too. And I love all those services very much, but we're going to have to cut back and uh, we're going to have to make this work. The Sheriff's Department is wonderful—I have no problem with the Sheriff's Department—but the Commissioners, you never know what they're going to be thinking, right Gary? You know, Commissioners from mostly from Cloquet... you know, boy, we need extra money there this year, let's—what are we doing with the Sheriff's Department? Um, so you think well, yeah, we got a good proposal this year, but what is it when you take it out of your hands, this Council, and put it—you actually put it into into their hands. And uh, I'd rather have more local control. Thank you. [48:58] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Thank you. [49:02] **Public Speaker:** My questions have all been answered. [49:08] **Taylor Hansberry (Deputy Clerk):** Okay, so then we only have one more and it’s—is it Lisa? [49:21] **Lisa Kornowski (Public Speaker):** Sorry. Hi, my name is um, Lisa Kornowski. I am a... I have a cabin here, we've been here for about 20 years, and I feel very secure with the police department that we have, knowing that the home I have here is not occupied five or six days a week. Um, and I just—I have a couple questions as I move through this for um, all this negotiated cost. How much more is that going to make this budget go up? You've got supervision, so we're going to have to take part of somebody's salary there. How much overtime are they going to have? And if you take on the miscellaneous costs that were in here, that's almost $100,000 for the city that probably could be added back in here. I'm not seeing much of a difference in the cost. You know, what kind of—do we have any rate guarantees for next year? Can they continue to move it up? A lot of questions when it's not negotiated. [50:35] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** And you should also know we're in negotiations with our own Police Department, and the County is still in negotiations. [50:41] **Ellissa Owens (City Administrator):** Oh, yes. So um, what has been looked at and discussed at a city level and at a Council level is, you know, the opportunity to look at, you know, two-three year terms or uh, an establishing a contract and a metric that you can budget out two-three years in advance based on knowing a percentage increase ahead of time. Um, in addition—and I apologize if it was not clear—those services that said "negotiated," those are all included in the proposal amount. So no extra monies would be associated with any of those line items. [51:17] **Lisa Kornowski (Public Speaker):** And then just one other quick question um, and I'm just not familiar with this. We've got General Government at $528,000 and then City Administration at $350,000. What's—is there a difference between those two or? [51:24] **Ellissa Owens (City Administrator):** Yes, thank you for asking. So things in General are like legal fees, our worker’s comp insurance, you know, property casualty insurances, different things like that that are part of General Government. City Administration is more related to staffing um, but also has the items in there for um, copier or machines um, just duplicating services, anything of that nature. So City Administration is more staffing-based um, while General Government is more functional city um, expenses like insurances and things of that. [52:03] **Lisa Kornowski (Public Speaker):** How many City administrative people do you pay? [52:06] **Ellissa Owens (City Administrator):** Um, three. [52:07] **Lisa Kornowski (Public Speaker):** And that that includes everything running in the office? That's supplies... [52:12] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Equipment... legal fees in there... where does legal fees fit, Government or Administration? [52:19] **Ellissa Owens (City Administrator):** General Government. Yeah, we have a DMV um, which uh, most cities don't have, but we supply it as a service. We do not make money on that DMV; we lose money. [52:36] **Lisa Kornowski (Public Speaker):** How much do we lose um, to to run the DMV for this community? [52:43] **Ellissa Owens (City Administrator):** Well, the general fund um, actually does a a transfer to the Motor Vehicle Department, and it's the only transfer that occurs at this time between general fund and and any enterprise fund specifically. And so that transfer is budgeted at $50,000 for 2024. Um, there's actually a really extensive list of items within City Administration that's all public data and that can be—I can absolutely send that out if you'd like to provide your information then you can see line item by line item what those are for General Government and City Administration. [53:23] **Lisa Kornowski (Public Speaker):** Okay. And then just one other question. You had mentioned that that the police officers in a city make less than they would when they move up to a county. So how can four officers cost less than what we have here? [53:36] **Ellissa Owens (City Administrator):** So a lot of things within the Police Department budget—there's—you have all of the administrative costs to um, essentially run the department. So um, the maintenance and operations of the the Police Department building itself, but also the cost for vehicle repair um, equipment, things of that nature, uniforms. So um, what's on top of that is more or less operating foundational costs that you eliminate the overhead with a subcontracting option. [54:10] **Lisa Kornowski (Public Speaker):** Okay. I just want to for the record, I pay a lot of taxes up here, and making sure I really like having police. [54:19] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Thank you very much. There's no other... how many? At this time, since Kelly you are here, do you want to come up to the podium and allow any to ask you questions that may have—have not been answered, if there are any? So anybody that wants to speak, please raise your hand um, I'm going to recognize... they’ll start from here. Mike, could you just come up because we are broadcasting this to the community. [55:16] **Mike Peterson (Public Speaker):** Hi, Mike Peterson. Um, my question is to Sheriff Lake. Will the Sheriff's Department be responsible to reinforce the ordinances of the city? [55:27] **Kelly Lake (Carlton County Sheriff):** So that's not catching, you know, just say that example. [55:34] **Mike Peterson (Public Speaker):** Ordinances keeping people out of the park after whatever. [55:38] **Kelly Lake (Carlton County Sheriff):** So normally that would be something that is talked about within the contract negotiations, and we have not discussed the ordinance things. Um, statutorily, the Sheriff is not obligated within the county to handle ordinance violations. Um, by statute, the Sheriff is is responsible to keep the peace and apprehend felons. So some of those other things we are not required to do, but if we had you know, if there were deputies there at the time and they're working and it's their shift, they would absolutely be um, enforcing those. [56:11] **Public Speaker:** Um, next—who is next back here? Raise your hand. Um, I signed up as living outside but I also have a property here so therefore I can speak either way. So I'd like to speak about what's going on in the real world if you can make up... apologize for having have to come up, but since you're broadcasting it, people they won't be able to hear your question. I'm going to try and deal in facts, not too much... excuse me, there's been too much um, that's been said um, in regards to what's happening here. And I don't mean here tonight—any social media, letters to the editor—we're not dealing in the facts. So what I'm going to do is I've done a survey and that is from Cloquet all the way down to Wyoming/Forest Lake. There is only one police department that is not serviced by the county, and that is here. There are two—and I'm using 35W or 35 excuse me as the place to look at because you have two prisons other than Moose Lake here: you have the federal prison in Sandstone and you have the state prison in Rush City. So Sandstone for example, they have—they hire with the County, which is Pine. They have 50 hours a week and one one of them is office. So they negotiate each one of these—I'm not going to get into that particular aspect of negotiations because these are all different. Hinckley, they have 10 hours a day. Pine City has uh, 12 hours a day. Now we'll move down to Rush City. Rush City has 120 hours a week, which includes three full-time that are there—deputies. Uh, North Branch um, that also contracts with the uh, Chisago County. Harris has 48 hours a month. Stacy has 80 hours a week. And as a one-one they combine with the township, so that's another story, and they'll be negotiating a new contract with the Sheriff's Department. Now let's take a look at the taxes. Before you start—where we at? Got a little over a minute. So all right, just so you know: Moose Lake value $479,500, that person pays $8,200 in taxes. Rush City, that same person pays $6,353, so there's a 26% difference between here and Rush City, and you are alike um, in many ways. Sand Lake, Windemere Township, that same person would be paying out there $3,900—106% more than you're paying here in town. Um, Moose Lake Township, you have that same person out there, you're talking about instead of uh, this one is at 240,000, paying $2,610; the same one in the City of Moose Lake would be paying $3,804. You know, we're at three minutes. [1:00:15] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** And I love talking, love talking... no, we have to—we have to keep control, and I set a—I set—I set the rules and repeat the rules. Now when you're talking taxation like that with counties, um, yes... just so you know, the City of Moose Lake, five years—has it been, or four years?—we did a zero passing tax increase. Zero. [1:00:40] **Public Speaker:** That yeah, but that's not the issue there. [1:00:43] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** No, the tax—the tax increase is because of the property value, and the city doesn't do property value, the county does. [1:00:47] **Public Speaker:** I know, I'm aware of it. [1:00:48] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Yeah, but I'm aware of what I—I understand what you're saying because I've done a whole bunch of research on it. [1:00:54] **Public Speaker:** I appreciate that, and that that information the Council heard and it's well taken. [1:01:00] **Austin Berg (Public Speaker):** Who is—who are some of the other people that R please? Can you come up? Yep, thank you. My name is Austin Berg. I'm a retired police officer from the City of Moose Lake. I spent 32 years in law enforcement, half of that with the County and the other half with Moose Lake. I've been retired for 27 years and actually, I support the local police department. I think that uh, there's a lot to be said for that at this particular time. Having officers that are well aware of the community—and that was one of the things that, going back to the three of us that used to work the shifts here, we knew if somebody got a new car because a new car showed up in that driveway and we knew it was okay to be there. We also knew a lot of the dynamics of some of the families, some of the the uh, domestic issues. We also knew and uh, did some changing out because we only covered uh, two shifts and we were done at 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning. But there were times we snuck out, and there were a few times that we caught a burglar. The one thing about not having enough people to cover this 24 hours either from the Sheriff's side or from the law enforcement side, especially with officers now that don't live in or around the community, is: what do people do when they need a law enforcement officer? Speaking from experience, it kind of tightens you up a little bit when you're standing here downtown and there's an open door and it has the appearance of somebody trying or tried to break in. You're waiting 10, 15, 20 minutes or more depending on where the deputy is at the time. And this would hold true whether you have deputies here or not. So think of that as some lady or an elderly person who's got somebody rattling on their door at 2:15 in the morning and that squad has gone home, or in the middle of the day. We live in a dynamic type of a situation where you don't know how stable anybody even in this room is and what they can do or what they may do if they're not very happy about the outcome. I feel, however this city goes—and again, I'm—I’m with the guys in blue, I wore that many years; I wore the brown many years. I have 100% confidence in the Sheriff, I went to school with her dad, so I've known her for many years also, and so what she puts together I know is a good deal. But I want to say—and I realize taxes, going back, we negotiated with the city and tried to tell them back 30-some years ago, you have to raise taxes. And it's good to say, "Wow, we didn't raise any taxes," but guess what happens? What we're doing here right today for not raising taxes for two, three, four, five and I don't know how many years before that. Everything keeps going up. But I feel for the citizens of this community who live here and pay taxes here, for the businessmen that have invested in this community rather than another one: you need law enforcement here 24/7 around the clock to respond to those needs. Thank you very much. [1:04:41] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Thank you. Um, was there anybody else got questions for Kelly before we go on? Kelly, could you come back up? Tom, you want to ask Kelly? I got a... [1:04:55] **Tom Anderson (Public Speaker):** You want to make a statement... you don't have any for Kelly? Not today, sorry. Save it for... Tom Anderson, uh, fourth-generation Moose Lake. Um, my grandfather started a business; uh, my father did it, I did it. Uh, retired. I've dealt with well, Dale, he knows; uh, as a trooper I'd see him on the road. My trucks, some on the road. Um, the County deputies, my trucks would you know, be pulling in and they pull through our lot you know, just to check, you know, "Hey, what's this truck doing here?" Because we ran 24 hours [Music] uh, we serviced Upper Michigan, Northern Wisconsin, Northern Minnesota. Uh, we ran into troopers, deputies, constables all over and had interactions with all of them. You know, they see you and they go, "Hey, how you doing? Haven't seen you on this route for a couple months," you know. They go, "Don filling in," and uh, had no problem with any of them. Uh, it's economics. Um, I can see going with County, I can see staying with what we have. And one thing everybody has to remember: when that your property taxes go up, it's not the city—just the city. There's the school district, there's the—well, we don't have the hospital district anymore—but it's the County, it's the school districts, it's everything else that raises your taxes. And uh, I've known a lot of our local uh—I remember Frank Sinowski, and you guys—most of you guys all remember Frank. You know, he'd see you and he'd tell you, "Hey, it's after 9:00, get your ass home." And you dealt with it you know. Uh, but I've—I was in Superior one day as a goofy story, I was walking out of a store at 2:00 in the morning, I was walking back to the truck, and Superior cops came around the corner and uh, they were checking me out because they saw me walk out of the building. And uh, the two of them came around the corner and they saw me and they said, "Oh, it's just you." And I thought, you know, it's Superior, Wisconsin; I hadn't been on that route in six months. But but they remembered me, and they weren't looking to cuff me. But uh, so our guys in brown um, the guys in maroon, they knew my drivers, they knew me, they knew my dad, knew my grandfather, and uh, they all did a good job. You know, I got a speeding ticket—thanks Darren—I deserved it. So that's what it is. So what do... um, it's a hell of a decision and put it in your guys's hands, and if we don't like it, well move somewhere else. [1:08:42] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Any other questions? Yes, sir. Yes, please come up. [1:08:52] **Ray Arnold (Public Speaker):** My name is Ray Arnold. I retired from Moose Lake Police Department a little over 10 years ago, but I spent about 30 years, half of that being part-time, which was half-time. But yes, I'm biased; I don't want to see this department gone. There's a lot of little things that happen with this department that people don't realize. They don't realize the number of extra time we put in free that—the hours we do, places we go talk. People don't realize it, a lot of free time. They found out one time a few years ago when they decided we should be punching a time clock; it didn't last long, and they found out what it was costing them because now they had to pay for all the extra time we put in. So things like that, and who's to say how much it'll cost down the road? It's probably going to change; it's not going to stay the same. Everybody uh, especially small communities. And you talk about Pine County—do you know how many calls I answered myself for Pine County because they had nobody north of Sandstone? I took a shots-fired call one night in Pine County that they didn't even send backup. So that's the kind of things we dealt with out of this department. So yes, I'm biased and I I support this department 100%. So please do everything you can to keep this department. Thank you. [1:10:13] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Thank you. [1:10:16] **Megan Lewis (Public Speaker):** Mr. Mayor, yes, can I speak please? [1:10:19] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Yes, please come up. [1:10:23] **Megan Lewis (Public Speaker):** Hi, my name is Megan Lewis. I don't live here in town um, my kid's dad does own an apartment building here in town. Um, so when I was talking to him about coming to the meeting um, he was all for it. Um, he is for the Police Department 100%. I've spent a lot of time doing ride-alongs with the Moose Lake Police Department. I can actually work um, as a part-time officer if um, the department so chose. But I just want to say that um, there are some things that are being overlooked on the Police Department because what about grants? What about different funding? So there's a grant out there that would provide um, up to three full-time officers for three years um, but nobody's applied for it. There's a $25,000 equipment grant out there that could be applied for; nobody's applied for it. Doesn’t mean you would get it, but if you don't try, there’s no assurance from that we’re going to get it. Um, so if we're not putting in the effort to lower that budget, but we're putting in the effort in other city places to to do grants for those things, why are we only looking at the Police Department half the budget? Um, if I have financial costs, I look at everything. And I go back and I look at that—where I work right now, I work—I have a $2,500 um, budget and I make my office work; I do a lot of work with that budget. So looking at 300-some thousand and what they think of copiers and stuff—I don't know, I'm not a mathematician. But um, so if the city already pays—the residents of the city already pay taxes to Carlton County, they have a Carlton County designated tax bracket that they pay in Carlton County for that for the Carlton County to back them up. So now we're going to give Carlton County more money? So doesn't that make it the same cost as the Police Department that we currently have to keep our local people that are in blue that look friendlier than—I’m sorry—brown uniforms? I would have been happy to be a a um, deputy, but I probably won't make it there um, especially not standing up here now. But um, I—I would rather support the blue. The kids at the school think the blue looks friendlier, they're more apt to go and talk to them um, you know, there's just a lot of reasons um, to keep our city department. If give them one more year, give them another chance to let him do some of the stuff to see where it goes. You've already budgeted it um, don't just rule them out in one year. So things can be done, but you can't just put somebody in there who don't really know how to to do administrative stuff for them if you want these grants and stuff. I would be willing to put in some work for the grants and stuff for free to help the department so they can stay around for another year at least. Thank you. [1:13:11] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Thank you. You just make a statement a couple times... running the city office. Um, just—just hang on, I'm going to make a statement. Um, in the last couple of years um, we consolidated a lot of management activities into the city office. We no longer have a full-time person working at the at the Arena um, that—that was a like a $40,000 cut. We also no longer have a full-time person or even a 3/4 person working at the park system that is called... that position does not exist like it did. We no longer have a contractor with um, um, maintenance or management of the the uh, two cemeteries. By consolidating those items, we saved about $80,000. That brought in a lot more management work into the office. So we took part of that savings—about 20-some thousand—and hired Taylor. Now Taylor and Ryan took all that that extra management activities, and Ellissa took some of it, plus we gave more responsibility to Ryan with oversight of the liquor store and uh, Phil oversight of the Arena. So City staff took that workload and altogether we saved about $60,000. Now the office cost has not changed any for 20 years that I've been the Mayor. Um, but in the last couple years with inflation—we say inflation as the federal government puts it down at 15% or 16%—actually, it’s around 25 to 28%. Everything has increased. Um, there's a lot of things that Ellissa mentioned that is not—you just see a solid number underneath that number. You’ve got I don't know, maybe a 100 line items or more. It makes—it looks like it's just personnel or just a copier machine; it isn't. Um, there's so much going on that it's—it’s full-time. They're busy all the time. To me, it hasn't changed a bit what two people could do a few years ago. Computers are supposed to make it all easier, and I think you've all have experienced it: they have not. It seems more work than ever. And the more the state changes things, the more work you have to do every year. There are new things that come from the state, new changes, new programs. The Police Department—those guys had to continually train on different stuff. Um, to get on... I don't think we were up to date when Darren came in. Darren did a fantastic job and updated that whole office and and computers and and the programs that you had to learn to work into to access the data at a state level. So Darren did a great job doing that. So I just wanted to state that um, um, about that uh, the cost of the office running the office. It uh, that—that is what we're experiencing. Please come forward, your name? [1:16:54] **Jordan (Public Speaker):** Jordan. Um, I have one question for uh, Sheriff Lake. Um, so—or two actually—uh, with the two deputies that would be morning after... morning and evening? I'm assuming morning and night? Day/night, sorry. Everybody else. [1:17:15] **Kelly Lake (Carlton County Sheriff):** So there's four deputies or in the proposal, and we haven't um, you don't have the shift identified yet. But it is not 24/7 coverage as was alluded to in the presentation um, because the the ACs that they gain... so if they take sick time um, or you know, their off you know, on their vacation time, whatever, that is not being covered. That is not being covered by—will not be covered by—that proposal. So if initially when I I was approached by the city and they asked me to to give a proposal for what 24/7 coverage would look like, and I did that. This is not the proposal you see. The initial proposal I gave them, they said, "We can't afford that; that's just too much." So then um, came this four-deputy proposal. Um, the initial proposal was for five um, to be able to cover 24/7. This will not cover 24/7. [1:18:18] **Jordan (Public Speaker):** I don't have it off the top of my head, but do we have that [amount]? [1:18:23] **Ellissa Owens (City Administrator):** Yes. So initially it was uh, $778,000 roughly, $778,000, and that didn't include any of the credit and everything else, but that was the initial proposal. [1:18:41] **Kelly Lake (Carlton County Sheriff):** So and to be clear, this is not me as a Sheriff wanting to come in and take over policing services in Moose Lake. I'm not trying to take over the Moose Lake Police Department. Um, I was asked to to provide a proposal because of of where they're at with the budget and the current conditions, and so I gave the proposal. And four deputies is what I feel—I think for 24/7 it needs five—but four person four-deputy proposal um, was the next best thing that I could provide uh, to be able to provide as close to 24/7 as we could. Um, and if it—however, I think the best—the best thing for the city is a 24/7 fully functioning, fully staffed Moose Lake Police Department, but I don't know if that's where they're going to be able to to provide at this time because of the budget. Um, so having said that, I provided that proposal with the four deputies, and whatever way the city decides to go um, you know, I respect that completely. And if it is a contract with us you know, for the Sheriff's Office um, myself and my office will do the best that we can to serve the public safety needs of the City of Moose Lake, and that does include you know, the personal service—the "Hey, we're the four deputies are assigned here all the time," they get to know you um, you will even smile at you and wait—I hope they're doing that now. [Laughter]. You have another question? [1:20:14] **Jordan (Public Speaker):** All right. And then one other question is, has a—I don't know if anybody else—haven't heard anybody else bring this up, but has there been a discussion about a small sales tax at all for the businesses of Moose Lake? [1:20:29] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** We do have a sales tax in place right now that is dedicated to infrastructure. [1:20:34] **Jordan (Public Speaker):** Okay. What is that, what percent is that? [1:20:36] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** That is a half a cent, I believe. That’s—that’s what our what our sales—sales tax is and is dedicated to infrastructure. [1:20:44] **Jordan (Public Speaker):** Okay. Do you know what it would what a 1% income tax or sales tax would look like for the city? [1:20:51] **Ellissa Owens (City Administrator):** Um, if you double what 1% is... it’s so... currently we budget about $225,000 annually for sales tax. So if you were looking to double the taxing percentage you know, could assume that it would bring in twice as much, so a half a million dollars. [1:21:09] **Jordan (Public Speaker):** So we would be able to, with our current funding, we’d be able to—a 1% sales tax would be able to have a fully funded police department with all these five officers? [1:21:20] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Well, I don't know. The State of Minnesota has put a moratorium on income tax—uh, state sales tax excuse me—for the next two years. Uh, it was just just out, Minnesota cities... so there is a moratorium, we cannot uh, even apply for sales tax, and we cannot adjust—those that have it cannot adjust their sales tax. [1:21:49] **Jordan (Public Speaker):** Really? [1:21:50] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Yes. [1:21:51] **Jordan (Public Speaker):** Interesting. Okay, well I guess that’d be something to potentially look into in the future, but I'd be okay with paying a 1% sales tax. I don't know what everybody else... but it's not that much more—a dollar for every $100 you spend. So thank you, appreciate your... [1:22:15] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Thank you. I think Chad's out there... Officer Chad. [1:22:26] **Chad Walsh (Interim Police Chief):** Say thanks first off, thank you everybody for coming tonight. My name is Chad Walsh. I do work at the Moose Lake Police Department, so I am one of the three that is left. And the question we have on behalf of the officers is: how long are we going to kick the can? When are you guys actually going to make a motion and vote whether you're going to keep the Police Department or you're going with the Sheriff's Department? We've been going through this for six months, and we just want to know. We want to know where we sit. We've had numerous meetings, city council meetings, separate meetings. We just want to know; that's all we ask. Is it going to be tonight? Is it going to be February? Is it going to be March? We’d like some answers. Thanks. [1:23:08] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Thanks, Chad. Were there other hands up here? [1:23:14] **Megan Lewis (Public Speaker):** Can I have my other 30 seconds to say one other thing? [1:23:16] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Yes. [1:23:17] **Megan Lewis (Public Speaker):** And there's two other individuals. Okay, sorry. Um, one other thing is, to my knowledge right now, that um, anytime somebody's pulled over in most other places, part of that revenue goes to the city or the county when somebody's pulled over. Right now, Moose Lake has not approved anything, so anytime somebody's pulled over and gave a ticket here in Moose Lake, none of that money comes to the city. So that is something that could be proposed to the state or made ruling on for that money to come to the city. And if you—I forget how many calls they said that they had for service last year—if we looked at that, I'm going to say there's probably a couple hundred tickets that were gave out on that, and revenue could have came to the city. So we lost a huge opportunity on revenue with that too. So we are looking at things, but we're not really putting the effort in to find a true solution. We're putting a band-aid on it that's going to cover us for a year until the other people that are higher up say, "You know, uh, Carlton County is now going to be more expensive." If we lost our department, our vehicles, our office... so there are different ways. [1:24:28] **Ellissa Owens (City Administrator):** Chief, just to answer your question: um, last year between January of 2022 and January 2023, there were 2,244 calls in Moose Lake. [1:24:43] **Megan Lewis (Public Speaker):** How many tickets that could have... [1:24:45] **Ellissa Owens (City Administrator):** That I didn't break it down into tickets, but I'm sure there was a good in that number. [1:24:47] **Stan Stansky (Public Speaker):** Yes, sir. Please. Hey everybody, good evening. I'm Stan Stansky and I live in the township very close to... like about a mile away. So here's my question—I’m going to tag along here with this young lady here: is there a a committee that looks for grants to try to get some money to to fund the Police Department and maybe the transportation needs for the city? Um, and if not—and if not—maybe there there should be. The other piece I've got a question is: would municipal bonds be an option? [1:25:27] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** We have—we’ve been very successful with—with uh, infrastructure um, and with the trail systems. The problem that you have with grants—most of them are 50/50 matched um, and that sounds great. Um, we did one on Kenwood South um, we put in for—sounded great—we did a highway because it touches the Highway 61, you could get state funding. So we got the grant um, we were awarded it. We had to match it, but um, I think that was—if you involved in this a million-dollar—just Council—a million-dollar project. You had to come up with 500,000 in from the city and the state would give 500,000. And it sounds good when you get it, but 500,000 for a small city is really tough; that's a lot of money. You’ve got to be saving for years to have that on hand. So what happened there was dozens of cities throughout the state got the same fund as—as time went on, city after city after city turned the money back in because they could not find the matching funds. Every time they turned it in, the state gave us another percentage if we didn't have to pay, which was great. I think, Phil, you were involved with that? It was third down and and we got—we got... yes, that was part of it. So in the end, I think we got 80% of it paid because a dozen other cities couldn't get the matching funds. This Council and this administration and in the last ones we've had, been very excellent at saving money and trying to get that matching specifically. Luckily, the—the trails that we've had built, the—the safe throughout the school, the—the grants that we got from the state were they paid for it 100%. Fantastic. The next extension we have that’ll—it’ll go from uh, 10 up to MSLP where there will be a trail connected around the whole city, that—that is 100% funded. Phil, I don't know how many grants you have gotten... [1:27:51] **Phil Entner (City Superintendent):** I've been successful on small ones, yes. Two per year for the last four years. [1:27:56] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** And when you say "small," 10,000 to 15,000 to us is a lot of money. So yes, grants are great and we're going to go after them. Um, the administrators have been fantastic and and applying and getting them approved, and we're going to go after all the grants we can. Um, there are some grants we missed; um, that's going to happen... um, has been. And one thing you have to watch with grants, you know—let's say okay, the grant comes out, let's say you get $100,000. You get this grant, and you can hire this officer and you can... so you hire the person, you get their equipment, you got—you get them all trained up, they're ready to go. Great, man, you have this for a year. The next year that—that grant, you may not get it or may not be available. So if you retain that person five years, you’ve got to come up with $100,000 every year after that. So you have to be really strategically thinking when you do these things, where you can put the city in debt real quick. And it's not just with the Police Department; it could be—it could be with uh, one of the city projects or or street department or whatever. That it sounds great at the time, and politically it’s thrown out there to make a party look good or or whatever it is, and it's there and then it's gone. It’s a one-time thing and it’s not funded; the programs are not funded after it. And I know Gary knows that with County all the time—the County has to be very careful what with what they agree to with grants. But we are going to go after every grant that we can, right? [1:30:08] **Stan Stansky (Public Speaker):** How about municipal bonds? Is that an option? [1:30:11] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** You know, we've used those in the past; that's been options on other building projects and other things that we've done. So everything is going to be looked at. This just hit us this year. We just when we got through with the budget looking at the budget in September um, and the Chad saying six months back and that's when we started, you thought, "Wow, this—this thing has jumped up to $900,000." So we're on the front end of this right now, and that's why we're [having] this and that your input just reinforces that. Yeah, you're over three minutes, sorry. Any other questions from anyone? [1:30:57] **Dakota Bishop (Public Speaker):** Yes, sir. Hi there, my name is Dakota Bishop. I grew up in the township currently and live in the city. I had a question for both our Police Department and the Sheriff's Department. I've had positive experiences with both of them. I've had careers involving law enforcement a lot, so I've dealt with both Moose Lake and Carlton County a lot. Both very great professional agencies, glad to have them in our communities. I had questions for both... our Interim... yes, what was your name again, Chad? Chad Walsh? [1:31:39] **Chad Walsh (Interim Police Chief):** Chad Walsh, all right. [1:31:40] **Dakota Bishop (Public Speaker):** Met you once but... quite case. Um, I guess one of the things that my concerns are is uh, differences in training and equipment availability. Reason I bring that up is actually uh, many years ago a Moose Lake police officer actually saved the life of my younger brother. It was a a medical emergency that uh, Moose Lake police officer was able to respond to faster than an ambulance. And if it was not for that and their training, the equipment availability, my younger brother probably would still be here today. So I'm very thankful for that, and I'm just curious what the differences between training and equipment availability with officer or deputy squads are. If there is differences, if they're comparable, if there's anything you can touch on regarding that. [1:32:31] **Chad Walsh (Interim Police Chief):** Well, at this point um, we have AEDs in our squads, electronic defibrillators. Um, I wrote the training manual for our Police Department. I've been an FTO trainer, field training officer, probably the last 10 years now. I would be the one training our officers. Um, they're going to get three to four months of training before they're going to go out on their own, and they would get as much training as I can give them. Like I said, I wrote the FTO manual and I'm not going to put somebody out on their own unless I feel they're ready to go out on their own. Um, I've actually done exactly what you said; I was able to save somebody because I was just on the road from where it happened and beat the ambulance there and was able to get somebody to stop bleeding and everything like that. And yeah, it absolutely works that way. But I believe we're pretty comparable equipment-wise with the County. Obviously they probably can get more equipment than we can. We have AEDs, we have uh, first aid and everybody's trained in that from Moose Lake, right? [1:33:30] **Kelly Lake (Carlton County Sheriff):** So we do have AEDs and we have for many, many years we carry that. We are trained in our—our Lieutenant here is one of our trainers. That's the other beauty of our office is we have many of our trainers that are right in-house, so many of our deputies are trained in different aspects of our [field], then they provide most of our training um, you know, outside of some specialized things. But um, they have—we have trainers for uh, firearms, tasers um, CPR, AED uh, legal um, defensive tactics... what else? Anyway, we do have most of our our mandatory training that we is we are required to have um, we have trainers right in-house that we... [1:34:15] **Chad Walsh (Interim Police Chief):** Touching on that, other than the defensive tactics and the first aid, I'm certified to train all the other stuff too. [1:34:25] **Dakota Bishop (Public Speaker):** All right, well thank you for answering my questions. And just like to say that if we do decide—if the city does decide—to contract with the department, I hope that we can keep the officers that we have that are big pillars of our community, and I'm very glad to have them here. Thank you. [1:34:42] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Thank you. We have someone back here to speak? To come forward please. [1:34:53] **Jude Stepkin (Public Speaker):** My name is Jude Stepkin. Um, I live in Windemere Township. They appreciate the open forum and the demeanor in which you're holding this meeting. I grew up in the Village of New Hope with a local police department, and the police chief lived five houses from us. I saw the man put in many hours, extra hours. I saw the man sprint over three fences to save a neighbor that was having a diabetic convulsion. I realize the value of local police. I think I feel more secure even out in Windemere having Moose Lake Police Department. Um, I have the utmost respect for the Sheriff and all the deputies and every police officer that serves now or ever has. But I really would have one question for Sheriff Lake. You mentioned earlier that even the best thing for the City of Moose Lake would be to have 24/7 with their own local police department. I'd like to see us work together as a community now that we know what's in jeopardy. Um, people need to step up and help. So let's put our heads together and figure out a way to make a difference here to keep our police department. And I'd like um, to invite the Sheriff up to come up and speak about why she thinks it would be best for us to have a local police department if you would elaborate. [1:36:26] **Kelly Lake (Carlton County Sheriff):** Well, I mean it—it makes sense to have 24/7 coverage. The City of Moose Lake, just with the makeup of the the city and all the businesses um, Highway 73 going right through it, the schools, the hospital... it brings in a lot of people. So it makes sense to have it 24/7. I understand the budgetary constraints where that may not be an option. Um, so then you know, what—what is the best option? Is it having less coverage than having a three-man department, or is it having um, you know, we can provide four deputies so it's a little bit more coverage? Again, best option would be local PD 24/7 um, and I don't know that—I don't know how else to say that, but um... [1:37:16] **Jude Stepkin (Public Speaker):** Here, one other question please. [1:37:28] **Public Speaker (Female):** Thank you everybody, all of you. I appreciate what you do. I recently work in a place in Cloquet, and recently we had a shelter-in-place lockdown threat on our our job. So we're all in the building—all—we're all adults. I was in the building, my husband works there in the other end of the building. Now what—this is just a threat—with all the shootings and stuff going on. Now, I was scared, so scared I was crying. We're okay. So Cloquet County shows up like that. Now imagine that's in the school and our kids have to do that for half an hour until they show up, or 45 minutes until Pine City shows up. That's not cool with me. I want these guys here. There's a prison here—if someone gets out, goes to the school to hide, or if something happens to our children... I don't want them to have to wait a half an hour or 45 minutes. I want these guys here. That's just my—that’s my opinion. Thank you. [1:38:23] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Mayor, can I...? Yes, please, Kelly. [1:38:27] **Kelly Lake (Carlton County Sheriff):** So I just want to make sure that everybody is clear that in our proposal, we are not sending deputies from Carlton a half an hour away. They will be stationed right here in the city and they will respond to calls for service when they come in. So just—just so that everybody is aware of that. I mean, was that correct, been stating that they—they'll be working out of the same police facility that they are now? [1:39:03] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Your deputy right now... that has been what was talked about with city. [1:39:09] **Kelly Lake (Carlton County Sheriff):** Yes, that has not been finalized, but that's what was talked about. So yeah... [1:39:15] **Public Speaker:** I heard somebody in the back say it's not 24/7. [1:39:18] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** It’s not. But neither is the current Police Department budget with three—three officers would that—that would not be 24/7 either. [1:39:27] **Public Speaker:** Is the—if it has not been negotiated into that for the cost of them to work out on a current location, would there be an additional cost for them to work out on that that location? Right now they’d be working out of their cars? [1:39:39] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Right now the negotiations have not been completed with our own Police Department because their contract is up, and also the County is still working on their contract. So they're both open for negotiations. So they are some things that we cannot talk about because if we did, it would be unfair labor practice. So we can't go into those issues at this meeting. But there would be—there would be differences, but nothing that I don't think Kelly's proposal or our proposal can't happen. There's budget there for... [1:40:20] **Public Speaker:** And I think that yours—I—I won't speak for you definitely—I think at this time we're going to... is there one—one more? [1:40:27] **Public Speaker:** Um, if the Sheriff is working in or out of the Moose Lake City Police Department, those budgeted numbers that are under the Police Department will still be—they will be in addition to the Sheriff's proposal? The administrative you had talked about? Included in that was the administration of the building and all of that; that was part of the Police Department's budget. That would be in addition to what is contracted for the Sheriff also? Because you're still going to have the expenses for the building, is that correct? [1:41:07] **Ellissa Owens (City Administrator):** So within the proposal, there are line items for a credit for you know, phone and um, some other services within their um, phone, fiber, and copier. So those costs have already been calculated between the two, and there's a credit for that. Um, as it stands right now, I can just share a little bit of the landscape. Although those specific metrics have not been established um, the city still um, in combination with the Fire District um, has ongoing relations through 2029 um, as part of the the the bond that was established to fund the building. So um, there is some time to work that out. There's time to work that out with the Fire District and there's time to have all those things things established as—as from what they currently are now to what may look different in a couple of years. All of that can be addressed. But as far as the the mention of some of the office things um, those have started to be discussed and are already factored in here. Additional items like equipment and and um, squads and computers and things of that nature that are admin costs that are built into the Police Department budget would not be there with a subcontracting scenario. [1:42:25] **Public Speaker:** But they're still working out of that building, and the costs for that building that are included in the Police Department's budget will be in addition to the... the costs of the building aren't going to change. But now it’s in the Police Department’s budget, it will be added to the Sheriff’s Department budget? The city currently have an agreement in addition to the Sheriff’s Department... [1:42:43] **Ellissa Owens (City Administrator):** Thank you—thank you for mentioning it, that's an excellent question. Um, the city currently has an agreement with the Fire District as far as operation of the building, and so as it stands right now, the city provides some services in trade for being able to have access to those particular offices. Um, there's not money changing hands between the Fire District and the city other than payments for the the um, the bond that was established to um, build the building. So um, there's no additional monies tied to operating that building um, that are in addition to or included in this other than some of the line items that we've already discussed. There's a dynamic between the city and the Fire District that's established, and there's no lease or and or rent or anything like that because the city in change provides um, some utilities at a discounted rate and things like that. And so those are not in the in the budget for the Police Department then, they are not in there currently? That's an excellent question, thank you. [1:43:43] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Just out of curiosity, Chad... Chief, you're going to be the last person, please come up. [1:43:53] **Chad Walsh (Interim Police Chief):** Well actually, I just wanted to uh, bring up the comments from the nursing home. [1:44:03] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Appreciate that, thank you. Absolutely, yes. Um, and I—I can read that. This is from uh, people in the—it’s called the Moose Village, which is our nursing home. Um, this uh, was sent by the residents, comments that they wanted it to be read here to the public. "We need Moose Lake PD. If we call, they are here fast. To wait for Carlton County could be a long way depending on their availability." And I think that has been answered tonight, tell you that if it goes with the County, they're dedicated here, they're in the city. That was from Westerberg. Another comment: "Moose Lake Village has recently started coffee with a cop. This has been a huge connection with the community residents' experience and gives us opportunities to be included as members with the outside community members. Members of the Village want and need this as part of the normalcy and familiarity." Another comment: "The Village is a safe place to live knowing that the Moose Lake Police Department is close and in the area. Residents of the nursing home can sometimes need immediate—we can't wait for a long while for someone to show up." And I think Kelly, you have answered that um, that in the contract they’re dedicated. Um, I have one question myself and then any council members if they have a question um, and this is to all of you here. And I've heard it several times—and this may be for the future of the Council depending on how they go um, and this—and I’m talking about your taxes. I just want to see a show—show of hands: if the city funded a 24/7 Police Department like we had, which is five officers (there's a chief full-time and four full-time), and the cost was 900,000, and you know how that's affecting the whole budget—which means the only way is going to have to be grants and taxation if—if you can get... how many would be willing to have that—the taxes raised to get that 24/7 coverage like we had? Are you... they live in the city? City residents and business owners is that what’s... you’re not the city? They don't live in the city limits? They're not really saying much, right? Right, I understand. Okay. I would just... serious. Council, do you have any questions for anyone? Walter, did you...? Yes, go ahead please. [1:47:12] **Walter Lower III (Council Member):** All right. Uh, let me first say everybody sitting at this table appreciates our law enforcement. We are all behind law law enforcement 100%. But we were elected here to have a fiscal responsibility with the City of Moose Lake's taxpayers' money, and we all take that very serious. Uh, right now the proposal from Moose Lake costs more for less coverage—quite a bit more. There's about $128,000 difference on there. And keeping the Moose Lake Police Department still leaves us open to liability and health care claims, duty disability health care insurance. Right now, we—we basically have a whole another police department that no longer works for us that we pay duty disability health care insurance [for], and that cost is rather high and that could continue to to increase. And we look at the budget as a whole. Right now, we're talking about the city Police Department budget. There's many areas of the city; a lot of them are struggling. We have a DMV that loses quite a bit of money; unfortunately the state takes most of the revenue that the DMV generates. We have an arena that now needs a $610,000 air compressor—or compressor system—to to make the ice for the arena that we're going to have to come up with. And one of the biggest problems that we have is our infrastructure: the city roads, water, and sewer. And right now, we have a plan developed to take that on. If we do a project every three years, it will take what needs to be fixed now well over 200 years, possibly 250 years, to fix what needs to be fixed now. We need to be able to get that done at a quicker rate, otherwise we're going to have no roads, we're going to have no water, we're going to have no sewer. And without that, we do not have a town, and we would not need a police department if we do not have a town. With going with Carlton County, we would still—that—that part of the budget would still be the largest budget that we have. That shows that we take this safety very serious—seriously. Carlton County also has more resources than us; they have things like an investigator. The City of Moose Lake does not have an investigator. And I—I hear talk about rapport with the officers with the town, but the way that it's been over the last number of years, when we hire a new officer, they don't know anybody in the town. They're brand new, they're not from this area, so they have to build their rapport on the job as they're working with us. That would be the same as with Carlton County. So the police force of—of the old where a lot of these gentlemen and officers were, lived in the area here... that is not the case anymore. We are hiring new people from out of the area that do not have a rapport. Uh, this is a very difficult situation for all of us here at this table. I know that many of us lose sleep over this. What we're trying to do is trying to find an affordable solution that allows us to be able to have the funding for all our budget budgets. If you looked at that one slide with the pie chart, right now 87% of our property tax revenue—this here—is going towards the Police Department. That leaves 13% to pay for all the other areas, and that is not fiscally possible. You know, we hear talk on grants—you cannot rely on the state giving you a grant. You know, so we need to have long-term prediction projections here so—so you know, you can say well, it's a possibility we could get some money from this grant, it's a possibility you can get money from this grant, but you do not know if the state is going to give that money out. So you can't rely on that. So it—it boils down to funding, unfortunately. That's what it always normally usually boils down to is finding the money to run the entire city. And like I brought up about the infrastructure, that is a serious issue. We're talking whether it's 200, 250 years to fix what needs to be fixed now. We simply can't do that. And in the future, our future generations, our grandchildren, our great-grandchildren, are going to be stuck in a situation where it is completely impossible for them to fix all that. We are not the only town in this situation; there are towns all across Minnesota that are facing these same difficult questions. And so I'm just trying to give you some information on how we look at all this and some of the information on the other budgets and trying to be able to find enough money to do everything. And I—I greatly appreciate you all coming here and telling us this. We—we need your information to make the proper decision. And like I said, I—I am grateful that you all showed up. And with that I'll let another counselor speak if they wish. [1:55:54] **Douglas Juntunen (Council Member):** Before we do this um, we should really close the public hearing and then the counselors speak um, that would be the correct protocol to this. Um, I'm going to take only one more question, that's it. That’ll be the only one. [1:56:11] **Public Speaker:** How is it short? Are we taking advantage of all the taxes that we can get? And what I mean is, I heard rumors, don't know if it's true, but anybody that lives along Lakeshore Drive on this side, if they have access they don't pay taxes? [1:56:29] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** All those things—all those things will have to be done at a Council. Okay, I just quick question... [1:56:37] **Public Speaker:** I'm... you said that there was—there's three officers on disability that are worth the amount of the Police Department? So we can't talk about personnel or you know, private... explain that correctly because I don't want to make a mistake on that. [1:56:52] **Ellissa Owens (City Administrator):** We cannot elaborate any further um, other than by saying what our public data budget is for our health insurance allotment for duty disability. And that health insurance obligation stands whether or not um, either option is selected. And that is $120,000 a year uh, that we have obligated for health insurance premiums for duty disability. And that's all that the city can comment on. [1:57:28] **Public Speaker:** Yeah, we're not allowed to um, by state law protection of of personal issues. Did you guys do the vote and make the decision to put those individuals on disability? I can't—I couldn’t hear that, sorry. [1:57:42] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Thank you, sir. That's not how the process works; there was not Council involvement on that. Thank you. All right well in close, appreciate your coming. [1:57:56] **Public Speaker:** I have voted for you every time you ran, I have that much respect for you. [1:58:02] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** But you know that things after... so that’s all great, appreciate your efforts here and everyone that came. Greatly appreciate it. Um, do I have a motion to close the public hearing? [1:58:14] **Douglas Juntunen (Council Member):** So moved. [1:58:15] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** You have second? [1:58:16] **Lou Ohly (Council Member):** Second. [1:58:17] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** All in favor say "aye." [1:58:20] **Council Members:** Aye. [1:58:21] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Opposed? Okay, motion carries. Um, you're welcome to hear. Counselors, do you have statements you'd like to make? [1:58:29] **Douglas Juntunen (Council Member):** Okay, please. My name is—my name is Douglas [Juntunen] for those of you that are stayed. Um, this has been a really uh, challenging thing. And all of you that are here, I greatly appreciate you. Those that have served, I appreciate you as well. Um, the names that I was writing down just as I sat here: Bruce Man was the first law enforcement officer I ever saw; my family lived um, off H and here was our neighbor. Uh, it made me want to become a police officer. Dale Heaton sitting right here—thank you. I think my wife would be surprised I haven't been able to have any motions for since 2012. Uh, I am one of those people with PTSD. I don't talk about it, but I do have it. Um, Ray Arnold, Darren Jman, and Austin Berg—thank you. Uh, those are some names that just came to mind. They are pillars of law enforcement. They are um, a big reason why I got into this and youing a lot to the community. I looked back at our City Council uh, Police Department list in 2017: there isn't one name on there that's still here. This Police Department is great. I'm not stating that—I’m stating that people move on. A lot of the people with Carlton County have served on the Moose Lake Police Department. The Lieutenant that's sitting there right now was a Moose Lake officer. You have investigators, you have uh, training officers, you have a lot of people that have served and they have gone on to uh, serve you in just a different capacity. According to uh, KSTP—and this is just food for thought, I mean it's not going to change anything, but it's the culture in that we live in—from 2018 to 2022 uh, municipal statewide went from 321 police departments to 308. Number of licensed officers decreased by 293. Uh, we have lost a lot of people uh, in—in the profession. I also reached out just because I—I needed to look at what are all the figures, what does this look like? What does this look like for the community? Because they're going to come here and ask questions. I contacted Goodhue, because Goodhue it's all over the—it’s all over uh, the news. I talked to Ellen—actually I should say with with Goodhue I was forced to look at their YouTube video. I watched their special uh, city council meeting on on August 14th, 2023, where every single law enforcement officer uh, handed in their resignation at that meeting, and they were forced to contract with the county. It wasn't their decision. Uh, small—small city. Um, the League of Minnesota Cities at that time at that meeting said, "This is not the first department; it will not be the last." I've contacted Clara City; uh, they have 2.5 positions. They contracted with the county. Uh, they have deputies that live near or in the community. Uh, the thing that was stated to me by them was that they appreciate the Sheriff's Office because of the expertise that they bring. They have more—more people, and that it certainly isn't a shot at the officers here or or any negative comment; it's just more investigators, more uh, people with specialty because you're not going to have that as much as a small department. Um, Morris City, I talked with Becca, the city manager. Uh, she said they were impressed with how the Sheriff's Office is staffed um, and that they could not keep people. That is evident by what I just stated. Um, Ortonville, I spoke to uh, Char who works at the city. She said this happened one year ago, so it's very um, uh, near what—what happened. They lost all their staff except for for the chief. She said it's going well; uh, the citizens are very happy and zero complaints. Now I'm not saying that's what's going to happen. I'm just telling you what—what has happened in the State of Minnesota since 2018. Um, they doubled the policing efforts because again, more staffing. And that—that’s what we have been coming up with, more staffing. Uh, and I found it was very interesting that the... nothing against you, Mayor Michalski, it was the Mayor... the only person that has complained about it is—is the Mayor because he voted against it. And I'm not stating that that has anything to do with Mayor Michalski, I just thought that was pretty interesting. So we're not in a fun—fun situation, and neither are you. And I just think it says a lot about the community, the people of Moose Lake, that you took time out of your day and you care enough about about the people that live here to come here and talk. And I want to thank you for that. Um, and ultimately we do have to make a decision on your safety. If—if we do look at this—and again, I mean we looking at what's been proposed—the three-person department. If we look at what does that look like for you as a citizen? If we're talking about a day shift being split 12 hours and 12 hours, what does 173 days look like? Because that's the difference between the two proposals. So if that person worked every single day and it was a day shift, and you went to the Moose Lake Police Department and you knocked on the Moose Lake Police Department door and you said, "I need an officer," underneath the police budget you would knock on that door from January 1st to June 22nd and no one would answer it. That is what the budget has been proposed; that's what 173 shifts look like. Again, it's—I’m just trying to lay out what it looks like, that's it. The the two budgets are very similar in other ways; the night shifts are comparable. But the day shift, three people no matter how you slice it, three people is three people. So uh, I just wanted to share that with you. Uh, the levy increase would be 14% if we just used the levy increase for an example. And I know that it was brought up, what about 100% staffing? That would look like I believe it was roughly over a 20% levy increase uh, for the citizens of Moose Lake. And again, the Mayor has stated that 30% of the population pays 100% of the property tax. So uh, my final statement is uh, God bless all of you that have donned the badge. I greatly respect you. And uh, this is—this has not been easy for any one of us. So thank you. [2:04:03] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Greg, any statement? [2:04:05] **Lou Ohly (Council Member):** Um, I grew up here. Not necessarily in—in the village, I grew up just on the edge. Um, I remember... and Cy was our—as our police chief... or what you... if you were doing something wrong, the gentleman said it was time to go home and it is to say you didn't argue with them because if you did, you had more problems if you called—called or took you home. So but this is hard. Um, I never planned my life to come back here to start with, and I never planned on being sitting up here. And um, I'm very glad that everybody came and put their two cents in because it definitely helped—helps—and which way a person can go because I really don't—I really didn't want to try and make this decision without somebody else's input into it. And and it's going to be a hard choice to make. And I thank you all. [2:05:40] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Thank you. I should make a statement. Um, we have one counselor missing: Kris Huso. She had a a spinal operation and she just got out of the hospital yesterday, so she couldn't be here just so that you know why Chris is missing. Um, she definitely wanted to be here, but but with that kind of uh, extensive surgery, I'm sure you all can understand that uh, it's impossible for her to be here tonight. I'm just a statement of... so move on to the Council on discussion questions. [2:06:21] **Douglas Juntunen (Council Member):** I would just make the statement that I I know uh, Officer Walsh's talked about kicking the can on the road and others have wanted an answer to to this, a decision. And we have never, since I've been on since 2014, we have never made a decision that is, to me, this important without having full Council here. We have four council members here. I don't think it's kicking the can down the road to say that we should have a decision at our next regular City Council meeting. We need to have everybody there because the citizens deserve that. That's just my—my belief. Everyone their input, their vote. [2:07:05] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** If there is no motion tonight... you have to make a motion um, to delay it to the next City Council meeting. So is there any motion by any other counselor or by yourself? [2:07:13] **Lou Ohly (Council Member):** Can you table it? [2:07:15] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Say that again? [2:07:16] **Lou Ohly (Council Member):** Can you table it? [2:07:17] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Well, that's what I'm asking. [2:07:18] **Lou Ohly (Council Member):** Well, I'd like to have some time to dwell on what these people have said too. So I would make the motion to table it until the next City Council meeting in February. [2:07:29] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** The second—it’s the second Wednesday of February at 4:00 right here. Okay, you have a motion. Do I have a second? [2:07:37] **Douglas Juntunen (Council Member):** I’ll second. [2:07:38] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Any further questions or discussion? [2:07:41] **Douglas Juntunen (Council Member):** I would just reiterate: I don't think it's taking the can down the road. I think people brought up a lot of valid points; there there were some things that I—I haven't thought about, and and I—I think all of us have dealt through so many financial things for—for so long. And we talked about a police district, and that was that the townships didn't necessarily want that at a time. Um, maybe there's some other options that are available, but uh, I think it’d be best for everybody if we all took a another look at what has been brought up by the citizens of Moose Lake. This is their city and deserve to have us look at that information. [2:08:24] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** You know, thanks for bringing that up. So before I ask the vote, I'm going to make a statement. Um, being the Mayor, I'm in my 20th year with Moose Lake, and three times we did approach the township about the police district. The first time was with uh, Mr. Taled back in 2005 or 2006, and and and the township was not interested. Um, another time happened with Tim Peterson um, probably about five six years ago, and we contacted the the uh, Township and no interest. The next time with Darren the chief, just a few—was it two years ago? We took a different approach instead of contacting the township officers—no, and I have no disrespect, I respect them all, they stepped forward like all of you had to run their township—we decided to do it at a township meeting and and make sure the word got out so that the citizens of the township had more of an input. And there was a big crowd here. Uh, Kelly came um, and tried to present that again to go for a district to help with the funding of the Police Department and forming the district. Um, with them, the Fire District works fantastic. We have a great uh, um, Fire District with the township and and looking at another township to maybe move in to add into that. So the Fire District was a great example how it can work and it works very well. And uh, so we gave that a shot at a township, and and uh, um, we did not get the results that we hoped for. They—they did not want to do a a district for at that time either. Um, so that's where we're at with it. I'm glad you brought that up because that's a bit of information for the community also, that we have not been sitting idle through the years with this problem. We have tried numerous times to solve funding problems. Not only with the district, but I'm aware of three times we tried to do a friendly annexation with the township, and all of those failed. Um, so probably time for a new mayor, I think. I had to get that in there. I'm going to do a vote and then I'll—I’ll ask. So we have a motion and we have a second. All in favor say "aye." [2:10:55] **Council Members:** Aye. [2:10:56] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Opposed? Motion carried. [2:11:00] **Chad Walsh (Interim Police Chief):** Chief please, please come up for a minute. Just want to introduce myself really quick um, Counselor Juntunen talked about new officers; I'm one of them. I started part-time here in 2020. I've uh, worked in the area—I started at the jail actually in 2001. Um, 15 years at Fond du Lac. Came here and fell in love with the place, absolutely positively fell in love with Moose Lake. I left a supervisory position at Fond du Lac, took a pay cut to come here, and now I'm currently your Interim Chief. Just want everybody to know, regardless of this—of the decision—I can't even imagine nor would I want to have to be the one to make it. The policing will continue as best as we can give it to you regardless of it's yes, no, or otherwise. We're going to be here as long as we can possibly be here and and you're going to get the best police services we can possibly give you. So just wanted to put that out there so everybody knows we'll be here if you need us. Thank you. [2:12:12] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** With that, I’m [going to] ask for a motion to close. [2:12:14] **Lou Ohly (Council Member):** Motion. [2:12:15] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Have a second? [2:12:16] **Douglas Juntunen (Council Member):** Second. [2:12:17] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** All in favor say "aye." [2:12:19] **Council Members:** Aye. [2:12:20] **Jim Michalski (Mayor):** Opposed? Motion carried. I get to... thank you very much. See you. [2:12:47] [End of Transcript]