you you you you City Council to order the city clerk please note that for the record mayor couch is absent and will go right to the first item in our work session and that's the update for branding initiative and Andrea ball ball and Nicole Gow said from a e2s are presenting branding options well this is the exciting part because this is where we roll out the top choices and discuss narrowing it down to one so tonight's a big night I am gonna start at the beginning you have seen these slides before but I always like to give a little bit of background as we build up to it this is a project schedule and as you can see we're at internal brand rollout so basically we want to narrow down to one brand tonight and starting tomorrow we'll start working on rolling it out internally to staff with a goal to roll it out externally at the fire muster so two weeks so we'd like to move along if we can but I'm so we're right in that August area September roll out externally and then we'll continue to work on the integrated marketing communications plan after that I like to remind everybody why we're here the branding goals and so we really want to celebrate Burnsville we want to give it its own voice its own personality something that your residents can identify with and something that you can use to brand externally to invite newcomers to your community so we want to make sure that it's versatile but it really says who you are this is a little bit about the branding process again we've been here a couple times you've heard about the process but we did a lot of interviews a digital survey individual surveys focus groups we developed the three he is and connector words came up with quite a few themes narrowed it down and we're here towards the end here we did testing in small focus groups last week and we're here to present the final four it says final three but we did final four so we're here at the end of the process this was the discovery summary just as a reminder we reached over 1,400 people in Burnsville and outside of Burnsville so this was a pretty comprehensive process again through digital surveys one-on-one interviews focus groups we really got to hear what people had to say about Burnsville what they loved about it what they cherish about it so this was a great engagement process this is just a reminder as we went through what we heard from people we like to say we put it into the three piece so people personality in place so we took all that data the 1,400 bits and parts of data that we got and it really can be sliced into these three things and how what people were telling us about the diverse community the unity that it had the personality of very welcoming and caring and then a little bit about the place they loved the parks and the natural areas about Burnsville so we really put it into these three areas and then our creative team takes that data and adds those connector words to it so these connector words are maybe not words that were necessarily said in the discovery period by residents or external but they were ones that closely aligned to what they were saying and it just gave us that creative use of words to add the connecting themes what is the B slash be like be a part of something or using the be from Burnsville so from that process our creative team got together and we put together about four themes we have a team of about 13 or 14 people that we use for branding we came up with 40 themes we narrowed them down a little bit and then we presented them to the city project team from there they were narrowed down to the top eight and those are the top eight that we took to the focus groups and so the focus groups entail the partners group it entailed individuals that match the target audience that we're trying to reach in terms of economic development specifically the economic development strategic planning goals so we took those eight and we narrowed it down to the four that you'll see tonight and I guess one other point is that from those four brand themes we designed two identities so two visual identities and the councilmember saw that through the survey so you had a choice of choice a or B and so we got feedback from the city project team and from the council and so what you'll see is the top choice for the creative and also the top four for the themes so I am gonna ask Nicole or Vanna White to to get up and help turn over those as I'm talking so you'll see them on the screen but we're also gonna flip over the boards as we talk about them so that they're just all sitting out there for you to look at as well so the first one is community with unity and of course the speaks to what we heard from people in that was a very welcoming community people really stuck together although it was diverse the diverse people come together in places spaces and events whatever it happens to be so community with unity is the first one and what our team did then is okay community of unity is really a shortened version of what that message is so it's welcoming and accepting a community United with a shared purpose and vision that's what it really means to people now the next step we took is how do we use that theme with each of the goals of the strategic plan so you have those five goals can you take that theme and does it support the goals of your community and economic development and its really tiny writing mostly because those are ones that were just discussed they're not final so I don't want to put those forth as final messages but we went through the process of saying can we use that to support these goals and what we found with this is we felt that we could use it in terms of a United vision for creating sustainability unity within the school district you know 191 and they're their focus on one kind of goes with that unity theme so again just went through each one of them and how can we support that through that goal and then the next step is what does it look like you know if you're living here if you're visiting here as you go through the community what does that theme look like around you visually and it's going to be used on so many materials right so it could be vehicles it could be a water treatment plant or a water tower it could be marketing materials it can be a mural it can be an artist mural it can be sculpture what does it look like and so you know weaving that through the community as well so that's the first one and I'll go through the focus group results too at the end yes I'm sure that's a question so the next one is you belong here again it had that be alliteration with Burnsville and B and you belong here this spoke to a lot of people I think it really speaks to the fact that everyone everybody wants to belong right you want to belong to something whether it's a group or a community a friends group it's that core being that you have as a human being you want to be loved and you want to belong so I think the spoke to a lot of people as we looked at the message behind it it was that you feel at home here you belong here regardless of who you are and so it spoke a little bit to the diversity as well and then again we took it down to that sub message level how does it relate to the Economic Development Goals this one has a lot of opportunity to use it in different ways because you belong here can be you as an individual or it can be a collective right so it can be students belong here all the way to a brewery belongs here or whatever it happens to be for economic development but what it really means is you're welcome and then again how does it look on on different aspects around the community the next one is naturally beautiful uniquely Burnsville this one is really bringing together those two ideas of people's love of the natural spaces and the parks and then what is unique about Burnsville and again it's that diversity with unity and putting that into that sort of theme together trying to take those two ideas and match them together the supporting theme is that natural beauty can be found in places and in faces right so diversity can be beautiful you can see that all those different whether you whether you're people or places are things that can be beautiful and unique I'm again matching it up against the sub messages and the goals I think that you can really play on the place for a lot of economic development and why you want to be here white family is one of here why do businesses want to move here the great places and spaces that are around Burnsville and those are just some of that the looks again and then the fourth one is community opportunity and unity it's it's trying to sustain key say what's important here community that feeling of welcome Ness and togetherness the opportunity that awaits you whether you're here a current resident or a visitor to the area and then unity and really focusing on that unity again and pushing that forward with a little bit distinctive creative style and then again the supporting message behind it is that unified vision that creates endless opportunities and that can really be weaved through all the goals pretty easily now we took these we took these themes and in your survey we really had just the supporting message we didn't show that that next sub message simply because they weren't final and it got I think it got a little too messy when we had all that text in there so we but we wanted to show you that we took that next step and how are we gonna weave that story through the community and match those goals so so this slide is a slide of the results so what you see here is we gave the total votes and so we had people rank them the focus groups ranked them so on the top you'll see the total votes it got but on the bottom you see a weighted and the weighted is if they got they gave it a number one that was their fur choice it got three points if they gave it a second ranking it got two points if it was a third ranking it got one point so you can see that it got 11 total votes but it got more number one votes than anything else so it got a 23 weighted vote I like to look at the weighted votes because it means people had a strong feeling towards that one then the second one had 13 total votes and 21 weighted votes and then from there went down to town ten and 16 weighted and then 11 weighted so really we're looking at those top two of you belong here and then naturally beautiful uniquely Burnsville as those really those top two that are emerging from those focus groups and target audiences that we have choice voting on that are there any questions or comments from the council and then I had my first second third fourth choice but I didn't reply to this until yesterday but and I don't know if I was even part of that anywhere or any of us were but I'm I guess I I'm a little surprised that unity either one of the unity choices didn't make it in the top one or two that were you in anyway I mean to this strike you as odd that a word because I think unity has a universal appeal to everybody and based on all factors in our community I actually expected it to be number one through the feedback of the focus group groups what did you hear about either of those two that ended up coming in third and fourth through you know when we originally had done those two we used the word diversity and that from the focus groups and individuals we talked to that wasn't as well-liked as unity and so it was changed to unity and then it those two kind of rose up in the rankings once it was changed to unity so they were lower to start with I think people really gravitated towards you belong here because it was speaking to them you know so I think that one was an easy one to see and play off of and and think how you could use it in different ways I don't know I don't know if I was that surprised by that well I don't disagree with you belong here of of the four actually the naturally beautiful uniquely Burnsville was my least favorite because it's too complex there's too many words it's the law I wasn't necessarily fond of that logo the other one that the B logo was was in my opinion better but when you look at the you belong here it's really Korean clean sorry clean and straightforward fewest amount of words I still actually had one of the unities as my might prefer to pick but that one doesn't surprise me because you can immediately grasp everything you need and interpret how you want out of that and there's you know compared to the second one let's press that way there's a dramatic difference and from my branding eyeballs I'd pick you belong here ten times and never pick the number two choice but so you know I can't can't blame the the people who put that one at number one it has a lot of appeal because it's real cleaning to the point and allows you to and it personalizes that as you pointed out so anyway great work I think the overall process with this branding project getting us to this point hats off to you and your team it's really it was it was a pleasure to read through this stuff and and and then get to this point thank you sometimes too many choices are having the focus groups provide some input helps it okay to make it easier for us councilmember Schultz so when you were doing your focus groups and I know that they voted but what I'm interested in hearing is what was what was the feedback that they gave you on the two that have the most votes you know I think I you belong here again mostly what he just said it was very simple to the point it was clean we heard it had a motion to it it was speaking to you the versatility of it I think people liked naturally beautiful and uniquely Burnsville and I have to say when we first presented it it was naturally beautiful authentically Burnsville but through the focus groups it got changed to unique uniquely Burnsville that's something that we heard that they would like that changed but I think it was it was putting two thoughts together it was a strong connection to the parks and natural beauty that's here the beautiful views you have the Rolling Hills people really connected with the place and then having that extra uniquely Burnsville I think they felt like they could take something that was a place and people and kind of capture it in one so it ticked off a couple items for them rather than just the unity there any any specific responses that people gave you that stood out I would probably have to go look through all the comments and I can I can do that if you'd like and send those as I am very interested in the comments what people said in response to that because my you know when I voted I ended up changing my mind after the fact and you belong here ended up being the one that I liked the most for all the reasons you just said I think there's a lot of emotional appeal to it and it speaks to residents and businesses and placemaking and it's just a very versatile clean simple and memorable tagline I did like the other design better than this one did you guys take any consideration to the design preferences in that yeah this was the design that had the most focus yeah that one was definitely my favorite the naturally beautiful uniquely Burnsville design I think was my favorite just cuz it was aesthetically it was done very well you know it was simple and easy but I think you belong here in my opinion was probably the most impactful thank you our mayor did send some notes on this or south and so our city manager is gonna read what the mayor Hill has to say on this Thank You mayor coats indicated she voted for her in the survey city of Burnsville community with unity and the supporting statements that you had provided in the survey thank you actually you belong here with my number one choice because I felt like as we are a very diverse city here in Burnsville and we need to put the message out to people if you live here your family here and I think that really expresses it that if you're here this is your home so I like it you belong here as well so I think I'm hearing at least a majority on that you belong here sure did you have a preference I don't have a strong preference I wasn't very excited about any of them to be frank and so I did not vote because of that I am hopeful that the implementation brings up that logo and the tagline and makes me more whelmed because I'm under the whelmed and you know I'm sorry I know you put a lot of work into it and I also do appreciate you know our focus groups their input and I'm not discounting all of that and I'm also not going to pretend I have expertise in areas that I don't have expertise in so I you know whatever the majority counsel goes with I am I am ready to go along with that and I think you really bring up a good point it's this is all static right so there's not a really great vivid story behind it in terms of people participating in it and video and all the different things that you can do to tell this story yet and so that's our challenge is to wow you so it sounds like we have a majority of you belong here's the what the direction we're going but the other you belong here design I think the reason why that one stood out us because the word belong stood out the strongest and that's probably the biggest appeal to your emotions is that word whereas with this one it's you and here so I'm not asking us to go back to the drawing board by any means but I think that word is probably why that one was so popular okay so it's just a comment we also need two versions a vertical and a portrait logo and I'm just curious if in the landscape basically version of how this might be redone in landscape for different applications if you would even want to take the word belong at a different size or you know where it can become bigger in that scenario and would that still be true to the branding - Utley think there's different ways to adjust the creative on this where it's a slight change but it's still true to the brand yeah absolutely and then of course they'll be gray scales and black and white in and they'll probably be you know eight to ten different versions of it but it has this look to it for sure I think we can address that concern what I was wondering if this is the end-all or if those types of details would still be this yeah I think it's a question for them but this just becomes the core that their conversions can be built up in but we have to pick those designer but okay well thank you miss Bowen miss cow stead for the update and thank the staff for all the hard work you've done on branding and we're done great thank you item number two and that is the water tower advertising discussion Bryan Peterson you might want to stick around they as you discussed will be going over whether the council wants to move forward with potentially advertising on the water towers back in late 2018 we brought up we're gonna we rehabilitate those tower and we were trying to figure out whether we want to light the tower or not that led into well perhaps we should use the towers as a advertising mechanism to come back with some facts we came back on January 14th describe that in general there's very few situations where there are towers that have advertising on them and when they have come forward generally it's been like a sighting thing like the city needed to have a space and then they agreed to allow it to be on private property in order to have a police or a deal or something like that so that was the primary thing we found out or I guess if it was a college town oftentimes they may you know if you're defined by this colleges company they would sometimes also allow advertising to be on it the direction from there was why don't we have a branding consultant in our midst why don't we have them come up with a recommendation miss bo did provide a memo that was in the background here the main parts of the memo were that you could definitely get some revenue out of it likely perhaps up to two to five thousand dollars a month but the downsides on the concept were were sell selling one of our more noticeable assets instead of promoting ourselves we won't be able to Singlish ourselves as easily because you know if as Burnsville on it you'll know you're here one of the things I think is probably rap SMO Stinson of the advertiser if if something doesn't quite go right with that company we're kind of stuck with that up there it's not can you just go down and take it down in a day or two and then I guess the recommendation from the consultant was to not sell advertising at this time so we are looking for a firm direction on this to see whether we should move forward or whether we we do not our mayor also had an opinion on this and our city manager will be reading that opinion before we go through the council Thank You mayor coats that I agree with the consultants findings we are spending money to brand our city and to amplify our destination we should be proud to tell the world that they are being welcomed to this Burnsville community staff and the consultants have done a thorough job of researching this issue I agree with the findings and recommendations do not allow advertising on the water tower any other questions or comments from any of the councilmembers so are we in agreement with our consultants yes I would liked it councilmember Keely I'm in disagreement with our consultant I don't have the same concerns for this but I you know I don't have a strong feeling about this this is my data waffle I don't have a strong feeling about this one way or another you know I I don't see it as a huge detrimental thing to our branding but I also don't see it bringing in a ton of revenue so there you go yeah I'm an agreement that I could look at that possibly doing that at some point but with the theme that we just discussed if you will hit that water tower that's gonna get awful busy if we put that on our water tower and try to put some other company names on it as well I think we should get our brand to start pushing through before we move on to that so I guess the majority is we will not go forward with advertising on the water towers did you welcome onto item number three and that screening requirements research update sir Sara Arnold our city planner is present give her a chance to leave here a minute [Music] thank you thank you thank you so we have our consultant with WSB Eric Weiss here to talk about some of the research that they were able to do regarding our screening requirements ordinances and comparisons to other ordinances that are in our market cities hello thank you for having me here tonight so overall you know the city wanted to look at where it compares to other peer cities as far as the ordinance goes for trash or trash receptacles and really evaluate kind of where's the city at and consider potential future changes as the county and other peer cities are looking at organics recycling and whether or not the existing code will allow for that and really provide the room for additional needs we also wanted to look at what are the particular produced needs and the needs of the haulers and so we've looked at a number of different issues your current ordinance is listed here for commercial and multi-family you you do require a number of components those being the materials match the principal structure that a roof is provided on the enclosure and that gates are also provided what we did was look at 15 ordinances from throughout the metro area and then we also did look to some California cities just as they're kind of a leader in in organics recycling and wanted to know where kind of we can expect the future of Holley needs to go our staff did have interviews with three local haulers to kind of figure out what are their specific needs and then also talked with Dakota Dakota County staff so again those three main requirements are our roof the materials match the principal structure and providing a gate here's kind of an example of what you could expect to see in Burnsville with that roof and the gate and the matching materials I'll kind of go through kind of the the big pieces the big components of Ordinances that we've seen throughout some of these apply to Burnsville some don't but really wanted to kind of go bit by bit for you as we look forward so as far as a roof again you do require a roof there's pros and cons to each of these I think we want to work walk you through all of those obviously a roof helps keep the area free of rain and snow that does help prevent some runoff as well as you know that that water is not coming down kind of picking up whatever's on the ground or on the enclosure or on the dumpster and bringing that into the water and obviously it looks nicer it kind of encloses it it has a nice look to it it can kind of keep in any trash that could blow around obviously it does present some challenges for the haulers themselves you know a lot of them have the arms that pick up the dumpster dump it in that typically requires 24 feet so that roof really makes it difficult for them they have to pull the dumpster out get it away far enough from the enclosure to then lift that dumpster into the into the truck that definitely adds time which then adds cost to the businesses or property owners here's a few example of just the building materials you know Manto requires a higher material than many of the other cities I should say back to roofs there's only one other community in the metro that requires a roof at st. Louis Park so friends Ville is probably on the more specific more requirements compared to other peer cities as far as the materials there's kind of two ways to go one is to have the building materials match the principal building which is what Burnsville has and then the other route is to kind of go to have it be compatible obviously having those match definitely has its pros it has a higher quality look it's better aesthetics it makes it look like it's an extension of the building but obviously the cons you know it definitely adds to the cost of the construction there's less flexibility or what people are able to do and then if a property owner is looking to expand or change their enclosure you know that that adds to the additional cost there as well here's some examples of other communities where they just require a compatible material you know that could be wood aluminum or vinyl corner plastic you know just not as they can still look nice obviously not as high as a high of a cost associated with these some communities that require additional screening on top of the enclosure you know I think some of this may be done just to provide a better aesthetic when the materials are may be of a lower quality you know you'll see here some of them are more of a chain-link fence with the slats so they're wanting to kind of cover that up friends well obviously doesn't require the landscaping around the enclosure but that's something that could be considered if materials were kind of brought down to a lower standard that obviously provides pros and cons again of aesthetics versus cost some communities do allow for landscaping screamy screening instead of a wall so either the use of the natural topography of a site or you know the landscaping the plantings the bushes whatever it may be again provides its own pros and cons maintenance can be an issue obviously you know expanding the area can you know you have to pull stuff up wait for it to grow in as far as a gate many communities do require a gate to be included this again provides the nice aesthetics as you can see over areas that don't require gate just to require the walls you know obviously you're still seeing that dumpster and any other materials that are housed in that area but for the haulers it presents another barrier for them particularly in the winter with snow and ice you know they're they're still having to open those gates you know snow can build up which can cause an issue you know you actually you have to maintain that area make sure that you're removing that snow and ice they do see a lot more accidents in the winter which is just probably pretty natural given the ice and snow and depending on the design of the gates it can make it a little tighter for them to actually pull those dumpsters out one thing that a number of communities require Burnsville doesn't is a concrete pad with the big trucks coming in you know wanting to maintain that that surface the trucks can obviously beat up other materials bituminous or a more quick-set concrete pad so California is one where they are requiring more of those concrete pads kind of at the entrance to the enclosure so that's another thing to consider you know with our freeze-thaw with our extreme temperatures of negative 50 120 you know you can see damage it's more common in the winter but also it happens in the summer but obviously that's an additional cost to businesses as well location additionally there's no specific requirement on setback beyond just the accessory structures a lot of places require that the enclosures are on the side or rear yard you know that's obviously an additional requirement and with some smaller sites that can make it a little bit more difficult but it kind of puts those enclosures away from the public view from the right-of-way which you know there's just kind of the natural barrier or aesthetic improvements with specific siting of those enclosures towards the rear or side so that's another thing that the city may want to consider this is just generally how the haulers would prefer those designs to look there is some standardization within kind of dumpster sizes the trucks the requirements needed they do like to have kind of you know enough room so that they can pull the dumpsters in and out easily so there are some different sizing requirements that we have seen some communities require different sizing depending on the use so that's something the city could also consider the bigger difference being for food producing businesses so like a restaurant where they may have more of an organic sneed some cities in California are requiring kind of three Bay's for dumpsters so for trash recycling and organics so it's kind of a big overview from a high-level standpoint Burnsville ordinance is a little bit more prescriptive than other communities so that does that cost does make it a little bit more difficult to get those enclosures approved so you know in comparison probably it's the roofing the Ruffini requirement and the building materials are probably the two that stand out the most and then there's some other things that the city may want to consider adding on is additional requirements and that's kind of the concrete floor and the location so the the memo does outline kind of the various things that the various components to consider kind of and the higher the areas that we're seeking additional input and guidance thank you any questions or comments from the council well it was a little eye-opening for me to learn that we are the most prescriptive to use your word demanding might be in other word for trash enclosures there are some situations for example the CSM strip center that Aldi went into where of the backside is now kind of a front side with Costco right behind it I remember when all they came in and and they were going through that amendment and design and we we had them put in very nice brick with a roof trash enclosures in their case like I said the back side of the strip Center is really also a front side because of the traffic coming in out of Costco and in the the back of the center twenty years ago was really a the back side now it's a heavily trafficked Road and and so those enclosures might have been desired by that particular landowner just to do something nicer than if we had some of these proposals or these examples that you had in our current ordinance but then we have situations like an office building on cliff Road that was built many many years ago and had their trash cans inside the building and then when they wanted to put him out because recycling requirements etc they didn't have a trash closet big enough to handle and our ordinance was forcing that owner to spend upwards of twenty thousand dollars to build a essentially an accessory structure to hold some a couple of garbage cans there wasn't even actually a six-foot bin or garbage dumpster it was just garbage cans and so we have maybe that's an example of sort of the other end of the spectrum where we were way over the top requirement wise for him to just move a couple of our cans outside and not keep them inside his building anymore so you hit on some things certainly with material requirements the roof that I think I'm in favor of relaxing and from my perspective and also citing the location in this particular example that office building on cliff the building was put on a I call it the west side of the lot with parking in the front parking on the side and then some room in the back so there was no place to put it except right on the corner of the backside road and and this building has three sides to it then because there's three roads on the other side so it really wasn't a back side to it which created another challenge and under our own ordinance we were basically forcing him to put it in a place where it was extremely visible when I wish we were been more been able to have the flexibility to maybe Park it on the other side of the lot behind the building would have been closer to the building and so there's that's just one example Jenny and her Department have dealt with a hundred different examples of applicants or situations where our curtain or current ordinance was really requiring an excessively expensive structure to put garbage cans or a dumpster so I'm in favor I'm glad this came up and I believe it was councilmember Schultz that that brought this forward and I appreciate that because I feel like we we were a little excessive in our requirements and to find out that we were the most in the metro anyway excessive when it comes to our requirements or demanding I I would like to fix it let alone the aim center circumstance which also prompted this to come up our own city-owned building is struggling to comply with our own ordinance so that tells you something about our ordinance so looking at this and you're looking at direction on a number of things so I'll go down the list roofs I am not in favor of requiring the roofs any more materials the same as the same as the principal structure I'm I'm not in favor of that that adds to adds to costs and makes it more difficult when they want to expand or replace screening we don't currently have that I don't see a reason to have it gates you know I wasn't wasn't - one way or another on that until I read about the safety issues with the garbage haulers becoming injured if there were gates that they were more apt to become injured and have workplace injuries so I am not in favor of dates if our pretty hurts other people or creates work comp issues or causes disability claims I think that's unfair of us to do that concrete floors we don't currently have them I don't see a reason to start having them it's not not like they're you know they're there in the parking lot they're in those types of areas so you know they have a surface underneath them location we don't really do that so that's fine do you know I mean we have our setbacks and I think that's good that we have our setbacks that seems to work so that goes down the list that I've seen on preferences are there any things I missed that you were looking for for a direction from Council acting mayor Gustafson councilmember Schultz the last one the list is size do you want a size size we thank you to accommodate organics and recycling I you know I don't think so in the maximum or a minimum it would be nice though so you had that that drawing that the garbage haulers had on you know what's the sweet spot for them to really easily haul in and out having that available you know not that we require that but just having that available to let let our developers know that this is a preference for ease of hauling I think that would be a nice additional thing that we we do for their information and I think I think most developers like the idea of things are are standardized and they can just go to this or that and if we provide that I think that's what they would end up doing but I don't think we need to put a minimum or a maximum on that because then we get into well how big of a place are you and do we do this we would get get really finicky really quick on that one that's my thank you that's my two cents I tend to agree with consequence that councilmember Schultz our office has been at one place that had absolutely nothing in a free-standing dumpster at the end of the mall and now we're at a location that has kind of a Taj Mahal of trash screening and I don't see that hasn't made a significant difference in my opinion on where the trash goes we all have trash cans and for some reason these not just ours but all of these ordinances kind of treat them like there's something foreign to us but we look at them every day when we get our cars and go to work in the morning so I don't have any major issues with stripping this down and if we've got Dakota County and our local haulers advocating for this change and especially with Dakota County staff kind of applauding us that we're even considering it just to allow more organics in that program that they're starting and maybe it would open up a better possibility of them expanding that program without this standing in the way our mayor also had an opinion on this Aggie mayor Gustafson and council mayor Coates said I would like to see staff and the waste haulers come up with a solution that is not going to have trash blowing all over the place this was a major complaint in the 90s and was why this ordinance was put in place councilmember Schultz I and I also realize that that's that is an issue people don't want trash blowing out all over but one of the things I noticed both in the background and the presentation is when the trash haulers are saying that because of the gates and because of the roof how they have to yank those suckers out and then do the arm and then empty em to me that seems like more of an opportunity for stuff to get out and be blowing around then if you have the enclosure and the trucks able to easily back up there and do the arm and things go smoothly in a nice mechanized process yeah I don't I don't like garbage blowing all over heck either and I also think that our our trash haulers and the bins themselves well I realize there's not leaps and bounds in that technology there have been a lot of changes since the 90s the type of the type of lids how the trash haulers themselves you know pick up and work in the mechanized process so I think the industry is already taking care of that for us well for me for myself I'm in the middle of representative building that's building a very expensive trash container as we speak with brick and roofs and gates and the whole thing so I'm gonna try and stay away from a lot of it but I do I will say I think we do need to take a look at some changes and leave it at that I don't want to get delve too much into that part of it because I'm engaged in councilmember Keeley I want to just touch on the issue of doors or not doors I don't know that our ordinance has to require it because I think businesses will choose to do it for security reasons to keep people from you dumping garbage in their dumpsters it's more of a choice on the business to prevent you know that's sort of I don't know what they there's a word for that when when people back their pickup truck and other dumpster Thrall there when they're in the process of moving and they have some things I couldn't get rid of and then they just go find a commercial dumpster and they back the truck up and throw it in there so doors I think would be something that each business could choose to do if they're not if they want for their own protection of their their trash capacity there was one other thing and sorry I lost material on what that was all location you had mentioned councilmember Schulz our current artists for location that somehow we got to find a flexible way to work with certain situations like the example I cited and maybe the aim center and that for variances for locations where the current location requirement of the ordinance doesn't exactly fit I know it's pretty rare that we have an ordinance that doesn't fit every circumstance but there's situations like that here so I would like to have the location addressed in this process so at least we have a tool for staff to work with somebody who's got hardships and or situations that they can't change because the building's been there for a long time and be able to work with them without having to come to us with a variance and cause undue delay so it sounds like we need to deal with safety issues and we need to deal with the aesthetic issue and what direction do we go I'd like to just bring up one more point so if we don't have visibility standards right now is that correct so whether it's visible from the street or not as a moot point as far as this standard goes I think it depends what where we're at I know in multifamily requirements if you can't see it if you're up on a hit up on a hill we have not required it and I think in our industrial I think we don't require a roof I think in industrial areas is that right okay the reason I ask is because just thinking about industrial equity's project and they're probably going to be having to address this and the likelihood of that trash being visible from anybody besides the people that go to work there is probably pretty slim so should they have to put a roof and Kasota stone on their trash receptacle even though it won't be visible because whoever Schultz my man I I think were I'll restate it so we'll see and see if I think we're in agreement - next the roof is that is that what you heard I should have you say what do you think we're saying and then we'll say what what the discussion is leading me choose that there's consensus to change the ordinance for trash enclosure screening to specifically eliminate the roof requirement and the materials compatibility requirement make gates optional I thought there was consensus for that now and to provide some flexibility or options we'll have to kick this can around for alternative locations that speak to those that may be particular situations where it's three-sided streets or something like that I don't know that that's been an issue necessarily but we'll look it will certainly look at that that's where I'm at no new requirements we're gonna relax the requirements that we have and Industrial equities trash is we're told going to be inside the building and we don't allow slamming fences so that would still be prohibited on these so if you feel like you have direction and I said if I gathered what the four of you letting us have been there oh oh yeah we should take up residential as long as we're at it may acting mayor or just mayor Gustafson I wanted to ask if the the study and and staff had considered any of the residential screening as part of this that's what my interpretation was when we first talked about this cuz that was a one of the points that were brought up periodically but I don't know if it was I know this was really focused on the commercial triggered by the deal but is there any rose screening discussions that happened and or should happen councilmember Keely members of the council we did not give that direction to the consultant to look at this is focused they coming off the aim Center and some other specific commercial projects and cost factors and whatnot so we did not look at residential screen single-family home res the Virgin certainly did not if you want to have that be a future discussion and so be it but we did not look at it from here you want a future discussion on there yes two three yeah we do okay I think we have direction where we're going on this and we can move on to the next item number four is our transit oriented development ordinance check-in and Jenny Faulkner our Community Development Director and Eric Weiss at WSB our consultant are presenting mistiness Oh your name's not spelled right good evening Council today we have Eric Weiss again he's with WSB the consultant we selected to analyze our current ordinances and work with the city staff and stakeholders to develop a transit oriented development transit oriented development ordinance around our future bus rapid transit stations so as you remember in our comprehensive plan part of the city transit oriented development was a focus area and so we're working on the implementation phase of that so I'm going to turn it over to Eric and we'll have some questions for you at the end thanks for that intro my level the goal is to look at a Tod district that really kind of takes our fresh look at the heart of the city takes a modern you know kind of 20 years later of review and approach and wants to look at how can the zoning ordinance implement the vision that was outlined in the comprehensive plan make it easier to administer and encouraged redevelopment and development you know with BRT coming you know we really want to set the stage for the success of the transit line and for the future and continued success of heart of the city we are you know looking at two transit stations in the area one directly in the heart of the city one slightly to the west so looking at potentially expanding what does the heart of the city or the Tod area look like what's included generally speaking the the list of permitted and conditional uses is pretty extensive and very specific from a high level the trend in zoning is to kind of go away from those really specific uses and to be more general you know as retail has changed as people are using spaces differently cities are kind of relaxing those requirements to allow a little bit more flexibility in what is what is in commercial spaces you know we're seeing people have to be really creative there's a an aquarium going into Rosedale mall and there's a lifetime going in at Southdale so people are just having to be more creative more open to new ideas really to fill spaces you know we want to establish densities that are kind of going to support the transit line the city is kind of in that sweet spot right now so that's good we want to continue that we obviously want to make the ordinance business friendly development friendly while still maintaining the vision and regulations that are necessary to create that very special place within the community we're gonna take a look at you know what is kind of the gold standard for other Tod districts what are people doing within the metro and then what are other areas outside of the region out of the outside of Minnesota doing to implement transit oriented development and then we want to look to kind of what are the specific needs within the heart of the city that haven't been quite addressed with the current zoning ordinance and so things like parking signs landscaping currently it's the citywide regulations that apply to that district and we know that it's a different place with a different and you know it's a unique character and so we want to look to what are the needs within that district you know to have parking standards apply to the entire city apply to a transit oriented development there's a little counterintuitive knowing that there will be more transit access and so you know reducing those parking requirements or setting a maximum is something that we'll want to look to but really we want to build on the success that the city has already seen so I kind of think of this as like a heart of the city version 2.0 and really kind of brings it up to our current realities so as far as this study area you'll see the existing Zone in here with the two transit stations and the half mile as the bird flies buffer there's the heart of the city one and the hardest the city - the initial conversations are you know that we should look to expand what's included in this potentially new Tod district to include areas to the west and to the north there are some really good things that we want to build on and want to make sure that we bring forward into any updates one big thing is the the coordination between land use building design and the transportation network as people do transit oriented development and form based code you know really putting together a hierarchy of street types which is what you have right now or you require different development patterns on you mean you know your main corridors your Nicollet your Princeville Parkway as opposed to kind of the secondary streets so that's something we want to make sure that we continue regulations based on building type you know a lot of communities are moving away from specific uses and more towards the building type what the public sees knowing that a lot of things have changed you know similarly to the discussion on garbage hauling you know technology has changed business quite a bit you know even modern manufacturing it can look just like any office and most people don't know what's going on on the inside as long as the building is designed an appropriate fashion parking placement is something that the current ordinance has that we want to make sure that we continue to move forward where you know the building the frontage is really activated and the parking is set aside to the to the side or the rear of the building and then finally finding that sweet spot for density for residential density the current ordinance is really specific it's twenty one point seven eight fifty six point nine two units per acre metro transit for an area like Burnsville this the areas that we're considering it recommends a density of twenty to sixty so that's basically in line with what exists right now but we could expand that to although for a little bit more flexibility and not be as specific again some other things that we want to make sure that we continue and can look to as we pull together a new zoning ordinance is really that placemaking component you know thinking about places and spaces wanting to encourage that activation that opportunity for people to come together for that sense of uniqueness that's gonna be really important to the continued success of the area there are some things that we want to clean up a little bit on the administrator side you know whether things are allowed by a PUD or a Cu P wanting to make sure that you know again that this is a zoning ordinance that is easy to administer easy to understand and encourages the development that the city wants to see currently there is a minimum height requirement but no maximum height requirement that's something that I I think you know it provides flexibility for sure but if that's something that we want to build in to this new ordinance that's something that I think we would prefer to get some guidance on early on is that minimum in HLC 2 as well there is some cinnamon height but no maximum currently in hoc zone again we got rid of the we get rid of the maximum yeah I don't did we formally take action uh formally formerly it was 79 feet or something like that yeah so does this reference of but no maximum reflects our recent discussion or is that always been part it reflects your research option otherwise it was 79 feet I think the other number that's something we can explore further as far as the minimum it's not jumping out at this one at me right old right away I just know we have buildings that look like two stories that aren't actually two stories in our heart of the city and then of course the parking standards so we should making those parking standards meet kind of the intent of the district so sorry search the Met Council and Metro Transit have a lot of good resources which we are looking to and provide some guidance and met Council Metro Transit is really looking to providing guidance depending on context so recognizing that an area like heart of the city is going to be much you know it's gonna be different from kind of the feel the development patterns the development potential then something potentially you know on the Green Line you know on Snelling Avenue or on University so that's where it is helpful to get that guidance of twenty to sixty units and good to know that the city is already kind of in that expected density range there's some other national resources that we're looking to you know also looking to some benchmark ordinances you know there's a lot of Zoning happening throughout the Metro a lot of preparation for you know blue and green line extensions the orange line etc so looking to what are some of the pier cities doing in Bloomington even Perry st. Louis Park Hopkins and then Minneapolis and st. Paul as well and then also looking to some Tod Tod districts in other states so Kansas City Austin and San Antonio so as far as direction kind of the big pieces are the the map that I showed earlier about for the potential expansion of the district some guidance on replacing hoc with a new Tod district you know there's two two hoc districts right now kind of the initial thought was that hoc one really provides the guidance that the city would like would like to replicate and expand that being the more transit friendly design more pedestrian friendly design you know where we're looking to build on the the existing principles and the existing guidance we have the comprehensive plan we want to pull that forward of course and then add anything to that conversation and then also just looking to streamline the ordinance make it more user-friendly potentially pull some of those some of those approvals down to a staff level so that staff is able to administrative lea prove things without having to bring it to City Council so and I'm gonna interrupt you for just a second we forgot to include a slide about checking in as far as stakeholder outreach and check-ins with our various Commission so I want to make sure that that's addressed we do intend to do some pop-up engagement as soon as with the fire muster in heart of the city itself at the block party developer roundtables check in with the school district with MBTA with Metro Transit folks to get their eye on it also we have three planning commission meetings scheduled and I'm meeting with the Economic Development Commission as well to gain additional feedback so I just wanted to also bring that up before we get into the discussion these good things to bring up council any questions discussion a few questions I was a very good presentation thank you the size of the zoning district er you know circles and I wasn't here when we created the hoc plan but does the current hoc zoning incorporate those are our one residential areas and then if not great but if this is going to is that gonna have a direct impact on those zones in those areas so the current part of the city ordinance covers the purple area so we have heart of the city one which is around Nicollet I'm kind of your town core feel and then heart of the city two and a darker purple it does not include any of the single-family residences our comprehensive plan shows a concept plan which is in your background report that shows heart of the city almost jumping over 35w along the areas in red that are our business like there would be three zoning districts what's highlighted in the black areas is close close follows what's in the concept plan as well as north of 13 that's an add-on based off of the Burnsville transit station what the half mile circle encompasses is generally what you want to cover for a transit oriented development ordinance however there's things that you might want to so your first look is your kind of broad brush look high level is gonna be that half mile circle as you get into the details you might want to pick those things off that it doesn't make sense to rezone an area that's an established single-family area we don't see that changing in 20 30 40 years so that you know might be you know drop-off and that's what we'll get into through feedback with the council through feedback with our different Commission's with stakeholders we also see this as potentially being used within our Burnsville center area or center village and so it can be transferable over there so some of those elements but sometimes it's a barrier-free way to cross that you know it might be it might not make sense to be called a transit oriented development zone just it might be within that as a crow flies half mile but not within a walkable bikable pedestrian-friendly kin area that Tod tries to accomplish today I appreciate extending it north of 13 it was just that southwest corner that was a little concerning but if we're still gonna narrow that down and punch some of that out then I'm not gonna spend much more time thinking about that just does is there an impact too Tod funding by doing this or is that going to maintain kind of as we've historically seen it with this Rho C zoning I mean does Met do the powers-that-be care how we label it looking at grants and for development so we did receive a specific grant for this ordinance it was part of our implement straight implementation strategy anyway with the Comprehensive Plan but because the Met Council's goals and Metro Transit's goals we were able to seek funding because of the proximity to the future stations there is specific grant money with the Met Council that's called lcd a Tod money specifically tied to this area so I think it helps it only helps it doesn't hurt as far as going over those funding sources as far as the stations in heart of the city those are already fully funded those are set to be you know ready to open 2021 okay I would just add counsel that I think we're I think where you're going with this is for future funding right and certainly if it's I think we can call it whatever we want but if we use the word Tod or transit oriented development that resonates with people right away so the people who are reviewing applications and who are knee-deep into the Tod stuff I mean then that they know this is a Tod ordinance this isn't this isn't gateway West ordinance or this ordinance it's very clear what this is so only to that extent it would cause them to spend you know we would have to have a phone call no no this is a Tod ordinance we just call it gateway ordinance but we can call it I think whatever we want but certainly that Tod is is a buzzword that resonates directly with Tod funding one of the Met Council is pushing the Tod zoning bylaws if you want to call them that and we're may be missing out on a few because we're not stamp rubber-stamping a Tod district I would think that it would help us in the future if we are gonna pursue other projects and I that's all I have turnover Schultz so tell me why we would not have all of our business - heavy industrial under this same Tod guidelines why what would be the no on that you mean citywide wherever it's business - heavy industrial because I like where you're going with this and I would like a whole lot more of it so why not especially for doing something that's simplifying Jenny uh acting mayor members of the council we have that as a future work session item to look at mixed districts in certain commercial areas where that makes sense I think from a previous discussion so I will be brewing there right now that's set to come back to you in December not all commercial we're looking at it but some of them buffer single-family residential and so it's just kind of looking at maybe what roads are where where it makes the easiest sense for us to do that as a starting point but anyways we're working on that to bring you back that information appreciate that but notice that this this butts up to single-family this does absolutely so if I can add advocate me part of with transit oriented development you want accessible services to you like transit so we have bus rapid transit that gets you to Minneapolis it connects you to st. Paul if you want the airport to go to New York but there's also sidewalks in place there's transfer services through MBTA so the infrastructure is in place those connections are in place whereas some of our other areas in the city which we'll explore more but there might not be that infrastructure laid out where it it might make sense of the future but maybe you know not right now but again we'll we'll explore that more but again I think the the infrastructure here helps support this kind of development totally get that but I'll add the word yet great the infrastructures not there yet you good yeah I'm good yeah I like it I've long held the belief that we should combine hoc 1 & 2 is just the HLC I've and treat them pretty much the same I like I like the expansion of this as well as we grow the heart of the city and it's gonna grow there's developers everywhere down there right now it makes good sense for us to do something like this I will say though in our hoc area we do special assessments down there for a lot of different things to our businesses and our residents and that helps us with a lot of the different things we do in the heart of the city with the lights and how we treat the streets and the whole bit and so how would that extend our way - how does that work - we're gonna put this as one area how do we keep those those statics in that area because it's it's one of the reasons people like being in there it's they like what goes on down there and and they do pay you do pay an extra assessment the businesses do and so do the residents you're one of them and so and to have that so how would that have you thought about how that would incorporate into this at all right we administer that program Public Works and that's resources and we you have to be fronting a street to get the assessment so if your street doesn't have the additional mowing the irrigation the banners the followers baskets those sorts of things then you don't get the assessment yeah so um almost directed we will continue what the same program was that and keep that special district that those areas where we do that work and then the rest can be just part of the Tod right if it's chosen to expand the program we can expand it but you wouldn't have the assessment until we're providing that particular service you know there's any friend of your a lot this really provides a lot of opportunity for redevelopment in that area maybe art Gustafson and councilmembers we actually our policy 5.01 five our streetscape operation and maintenance assessment policy that speaks very specifically to what areas Ryan and his team take care of under its policy so it would have to be an intentional decision by the council to amend it or adjust it okay thank you that's very helpful so if we put baskets in River Ridge circle then they would be a part of that assessment yep so I believe the mayor had some comments on this yes thank you called acting mayor Gustafson she spoke to actually that same topic regarding this district this assessment program and wanting to be certain that that is maintained for the very reasons that were originally identified so sounds like we have consensus here to expand I just have one more question that's up here are you comfortable with us exploring an administrative approval [Laughter] okay I think where they work thank you nice job that's a big leap from 20 years ago so we're going today and I'll just add well during the transition what's interesting about this if I may is some part of the city was set up as a new urbanism type development in the late 90s I mean this was way before transit came to the transit that is being planned came to our region and so it's really they picked this spot because of the environment that was built here already as a great location for the orange line stop right because we have the density and the development there so we're evolving right and so now it's Tod and 20 years from now it perhaps could be something else but it really is a good opportunity for us so I agree we're gonna take a five-minute break and then we'll be back the old Derrick Thompson territory because I don't think council member hschultz can [Laughter] you you you you you you you back from our recess and councilmember Keely you had your hand up before we took a break did you still have a comment you wanted to make no it was a bio break request that she beat you to it okay never right then we go hunt the item number five that's our discussion on side yard Street accessory structure setbacks on corner Lots in one family residential district thank you acting here guests and good evening members of the council so this will be a follow-up on the May 14th work session discussions the staff has come back today with some more information of the city's market cities and their ordinances related to corner lot setbacks and with review in comparison for seseri structure setbacks so under principles ordinance a corner lot is present at the junction of two or more intersecting streets at the front lot line is defined as the line with the shortest dimension on the public street with the other lot line becoming the side yard street line so the side yard street setback is 20 feet in the r1 zoning district and 40 feet in the r1 a district so this is consistent with recent changes for double frontage setbacks it's the same dimension there's an estimated upwards of two thousand watts meeting corner lot designation within residential one family residential zoned areas within the city along with setback requirements there's also the visibility triangle at corners that affects corner Lots where structures couldn't be placed and that's through a calculation based on the zoning ordinance requirements as far as our market cities in review of these cities setback distances varied as low as 90 feet to 50 feet depending on many factors mainly lot size lot type different variations of a one-family zoning district we have the two variations other cities set up to four or five different one family zoned districts at also street type whether it was adjacent to arterial roadway or a neighborhood or city street so in three of our market cities the setback was reduced as low as 15 feet in some cases structures were not permitted at all is the additional street frontage was considered a front and their line where it's as I mentioned it's a side yard street in our code as I mentioned the lowest setback was nine feet on a lot with the requirement that it was for a lot sixty feet or less and with the Burnsville r1 minimum lot width is 90 feet and the r1 a it's depending on whether it's on septic system but it can be in the 100's 120 width so with a 20 foot setback in r1 and a 40 foot setback in r1 a the Bernthal was pretty consistent and our on average with our market cities for similar lot sizes most of them ranged somewhere between 15 and 25 feet for similar lot size requirements as we have in our r1 zoning district but some options to consider this evening and leaving the ordinance as is accessory structures would be still permitted inside and rear yard as well as within the side street yard and past that 20 foot or 40 foot setback depending on the zoning district and corner Lots are plotted as larger Lots they have a larger minimum lot size than a typical interior lot and variance application does exist and can be considered in cases where there is no possible location or where a structure cannot meet these setback requirements option two we could amend the ordinance to modify setback requirements for accessory structures if the in the side yard Street to reduce it by five feet that would be reducing it to 15 feet which was the typical low number in our market cities and we could amend the ordinance to modify that requirement to that back by five feet but we would also possibly go back and amend the double frontage setbacks the additional five feet to maintain consistency in the setbacks for these street facing lot lines the fourth option and then the ordinance to modify setback requirements for accessory structures when the properties are not abutting that collector or arterial roadway but could be reduced for the neighborhood or side street so those are some options to consider before you tonight I will open for listening for Direction console questions comments so sheds are not allowed in playing in need in Prairie sorry that wasn't supposed to be a trick question it was just looking at your a thing that says not permitted not allowed in the front yard at all and they consider the side yard street to be impaired it's similar with our double frontage that we looked at before probably could have saved that question for leaders any other thoughts console console member hschultz I leaned towards number three for consistency okay if we're gonna change it let's have things to be consistent and not funky and weird cultivar Keely this proposal would impact the example that I brought forward previously correct the accessory structure on in the would be side yard of the home that abuts Nicollet which I believe my request was to take it to ten feet not 15 I would still suggest go at 10 feet because of 10 feet from the property line and the property line has a fairly significant or less significant maybe set back from the road itself so we're I think in the example that I found it was 16 or 18 feet from the road and then we are saying go another 20 feet from there on the property line so was the accessory structure in this case and that example was gonna be 30 under current ordinance 36 feet away from the road and that put it in essentially their backyard so their side yard to take it to 10 feet from the property line plus the 60 was 26 feet so in that case I know every the downside here is every example or potential example is slightly different so it's difficult one question do we have a minimum setback for property lines from a budding side roads to properties is my example that one that was I stepped it off at 16 feet but their fence was actually put about two feet outside their their property line as we found out when I looked but it's been there forever so is 18 feet normal from the curb to a property line when a road abuts a side yard members of the council acting mayor Gusterson typical setback is 14 feet from behind the curb to one's property line and that's enough room for a right-of-way a sidewalk if there's a sidewalk there it's usually one foot beyond the sidewalk that's a typical case if it's a collector street it's probably wider than that if it's an arterial it could very well be much more wider than that but typicals 14 feet okay so this one being 18 is but Nicollet is a collector yes so it's typical for a collector road to be about 80 vo will be more than 14 it never more than 14 really J if I can I would also add you know how we got to the five feet was by looking at the market cities yes with all due respect we know you asked for two feet but the suggestion is there's not a market city that's less than 15 feet so that's where that option was thrown up but we do know we're here what your request was probably and I think you know what I looked at it and I couldn't find any justification rational justification of my mind for not using 10 except obviously everybody else has dumped this way so yeah there's some examples there but what is the rationale in your opinion to why most are greater than 15 because for many places its consistency along front lot or front lot lines in a line of homes the corner lot the one that may be the shortest dimension on the public street would be the front so that depending on how properties were plotted and how neighborhoods were put together it's either/or there's not too much consistency on which lot lines consider the front so and your house could still face your side yard line it wouldn't necessarily face what's considered your front for setback purposes so most of them still most standard zoning code would suggest keep it still close to as close to it as possible as what your typical front line would be to maintain consistency for those that are on corners for their neighbors that are all facing the same direction it there are examples I mean I used to live in a a home that was on a corner lie the front of the house which is the the address faced a cul-de-sac high point but the driveway and the mailbox on the side so it created an interesting theory of you know an accessory structure is going to put it couldn't be on either one of those in a sense in that particular case but so if we have all these differing circumstances and for me the I see a lot of in Burnsville is that example home that that's on Nicola that faces across street but side yard alone Nicola and then I thought to myself okay if this accessory structure were ten feet closer to the road still in his case 28 feet or 26 feet you got 28 feet from from the curb how does that really change the aesthetics the dinette you know the look and it seems sort of a non-issue to me I can't I can't figure out why having that structure 10 feet further this way changes anything it's a it's a side slash backyard right accessory structure it's not gonna be toward the front so I think the 10 foot request is reasonable because I still have yet to find any even sight line reason why it's a bad idea to be 10 feet off the line Jane councilmember Keely I'm we have at Sarah put the graphic up here so this does kind of explain the very the variation of the lot types on any given block right so the example you're talking about is this drawing on the bottom right and the far left side back to back Lots with the street on the side right it could it be laid out and we have areas in town that are laid out more like the site on the right where you've got two corners and houses in between right and so in that case if someone shed or garage or fat whatever it may be is closer to the street side the right side the person in the middle has a 30 foot front yard setback and then down the block if there's more than one they're all at 30 and then you get to the corner so that's why a lot of cities have that standard street side is the same because it could be somebody's front yard like miss Arnold was saying similar to the discussion on the through lot right back to back that back side of somebody's yard could be the front side of the abutting properties maybe behind it and so that's why it's set up for consistency's sake you know if I could follow there's a five-foot setback for accessory structure from the back property line right is it fire in the rear and five feet from a typical side yard line oh that's right five feet from a and abutting side yard where there's not a road right that's the five and then I think it's ten actually from the back property line correct eight feet but some of our neighborhoods are plaited with ten third Raina gin utility easements so maybe when I said you organs up light I saw ten I don't remember seen eight but and that's part of the reason where I get the rationale for the 10-foot on the side is we're ten from the back and as you pointed out miss Faulkner in some cases the house behind could that could be their front yard if they're facing the other direction and so in that circumstance do we still require that accessory structure just ten feet from the person's back line even though that back yard line property line could be the border of the person behind them front yard but I mean the scenario could go either way where someone sharing a backyard with someone else's front yard and your packet there were a few examples of different neighborhoods and burns though and I traced out the what the current setbacks were so some people do have back their neighbors and somebody else's front yard and somebody else's backyard so the the setbacks are similar enough in distance between the 30 and the 20 where there and there's a consistency there yeah so I mean image picture you know the location I'm speaking of so let's and that's on whatever the road is let's assume that person's backyard that the next house behind them which might have a road going at through it is orientated to face Nicola right 270 so in that scenario if this person wanted to put an accessory shed on the back of their property they could go ten feet from that property line being the front yard of the house in under our ordinance that's okay I'm not tracking you accounts member Keely unless Sarah I think I understand now so it would be that person's if they were oriented orienting towards Nicola it would be their side yard and it would be ten feet from the side yard lot line yeah let's assume this one is facing the road that it is the by crafter bird you know the side road right so here's Nicola and I've got a house and it's facing the cross street the house behind them actually is facing Nicollet right frontage Nicholas so that's their front yard right and so if I'm in this house and I want to put a storage shed in my back slash side yard I could do it today 20 feet from from the road and ten feet from my back property line which happens to be the front yard of the house behind me is is there any accommodation for my shed having to be further away because it is a budding a front yard or is it still the ten feet well your front yard on the corner lot right the front yard is considered the one with the shortest dimension so it doesn't matter where your driveway is or what your house is addressed from the shortest dimension on a corner lot is considered the front for setback purposes Oh so the setbacks line up I get what you're saying now yeah just I mean I'm thinking of the person whose house faces Nicollet that's Jeremy is that shed position ten feet from my back property line their front yard property line that meets the line is that do we accommodate for that at all those are actually I would say if I can the more challenging ones right because they feel and they act where their front is the longer side of the lot and that has the 20 foot side yard setback for accessory structure and they could have put their house closer but back in the day they probably did into their houses probably setback 30 feet to line up on this side and 30 feet to line up on the side right you can imagine it and what they think is there is their side yard is really their rear yard so it has a little bit more setbacks so it does become a little bit more challenging people's homes are set up in a different way than I think was originally intended so you literally could end up with the shed city right next to someone's front yard kind of I think we had one come over here years ago foresee you pee in it and I think the gentleman wanted to add a second shed or something like this and it would have been kind of right closer to some of his neighbors you know the five foot one alleviate that no in that case I believe he was denied because of it I mean that's what you're talking about now with the change to five foot as opposed to the ten foot that cost remember Keely requests it would that stop that from happening to where a shed could end up pretty much next to somebody's front yard with the way that so many different Lots are oriented in any given neighborhood there's always the possibility that someone can legally put their shed closer to your house than you may want them to because there's there's a setback line somewhere and so there's so much variety in that that's um the way that Lots face each other there could be someone's rear yard next to your front yard where they could put a shed nearby your front yard and there's not really a way to if it's changed one way then somebody else might have a different issue ya know do we consider the short side of the front yard just for taxi purposes or I'm kind of having a hard time getting my head around my driveway and my house numbers sitting on Aldridge but my site is another one but that's my short side and that's my front yard and how did that become life right here I would say counsel this goes back to the beginning of planning you know this is a standard that's been in place probably for not quite a hundred years but the zoning has been around and and somebody it had to when you start to have setback rules and start to define things in law you have to pick one right or pick two so what is it gonna be and so it was decided and that is the standard in the planning world you could probably go to most any city and the front yard is gonna be the side on a corner lot the side with the shortest dimension some cases they may have to fry arts so those are your two options but really yes that's very very let's make it easy yes so if you're looking for flexibility to go down the ten feet we can do that go from 20 down to 10 on a side gear to buddy in the street if you want to do that like Sara suggested one of the options is then to also reduce the setback for a through lot so in the case of the one I think it's there's one through lot there but doesn't quite match up but so it would be this the same setback whether you're throughout or corn a lot of letting the street you could ever shed that's now ten feet no matter what type of lot you are from from the street from the property line yes thank you thank you very much from the property line certainly we can we can do that I don't know that we have a lot of people screaming to put sheds up or we have the variance process to that's what our fallback is not every ordinance fits you know square peg in a round hole not everyone fits every example like Sarah said there are lots of different shapes and layouts of lots that were done back in the 60s and 70s and called the sacks and kind of some weird things that we have around town so it's hard to have an ordinance that fits everything so that's why we do have variance process as well and in the statutes change on that for practical difficulties now instead of undue hardship so that's been lessened a little bit for folks the ordinance that fits every circumstance would be the miracle Orient's so we could go back five and do a variance if that's needed you certainly could do that but isn't the rub here is that the variance process is more expensive good as a very good shot itself so what if we made the variance process more accessible I mean administrative leave or accessible meaning less costly it's always the unintended consequences of if it fits for one person is it going to create a disaster for somebody else okay um in the proposed budget I'm proposing that we reduce our variance fee for single family homes to four hundred instead of 750 there's still the escrow we don't get very many of them so the impact doesn't this for the budget presentation but since my work right I know you but we don't give very many of them and to provide some relief to them so those are costs that doesn't cover all of our costs of course but because we get so few of them this council has said has asked about it several times it's okay if we do that if that's what you want to do that's okay to do that the concern is if it's free there'd be a line out the door and we wouldn't be able to get anything else done and the city would be bearing the cost for that right so what's what's the balance with with the need and the the process and the fee so we're proposing to reduce the fee to help address some of that need hopefully hopefully you'll like that I'm just kind of wondering piggybacking on what council member workman said if we could do some of that stuff administrative Lee and if they're not satisfied with the administrative outcome then they can actually apply for the variance and because as you say there are challenging lots that you know maybe that doesn't make sense there and you guys would recognize that I mean that's what you do and maybe we could talk about something like that and where some of those special circumstances you can just take care of it instead of having to force them to come through it if they don't like your decision they always can appeal to us through the variance system itself just a thought councilmember Keeley I like where you're going with on the suggestion of the fees because in this example case which really draw my drew my attention to our ordinance the fee and the escrow ends up becoming maybe more expensive than the structure itself which is a huge disincentive for people to just say I'm gonna bother right because I think the permit for build was the permit like 78 bucks or something like that under a curfew 75 is 75 bucks off if it conformed in his in this particular persons case they would come in paid 75 bucks built their structure and be done with it but because of the nature of the terrain and etc you know you came forward to me and I looked at and I said I agree I create word we're making it essentially in the middle of your back yard instead on the side yard where you'd like to put it and hence it drew my attention to this whole ordinance the setback ordinance but so I would like to see it go a little lower than that actually because you know this is a for residential because these are people that are gonna want to spend the majority of their money on the building itself not just trying to get it through City Hall so I think that's a good idea you know I think if the if the if the council based on what they've seen is not comfortable going ten because other cities haven't done it I mean I I can understand I would still advocate that we make it ten but I think 15 is a certainly a step in the right direction some results so just looking at these numbers I want to make sure that I have them correct from the curb to the property line is in the range of 14 to 18 feet depending on if it's like a little residential Road or or a main road is that number correct um consul member hschultz I would say 14 feet is on a typical residential street and leave it at that it's too variable for me to say with confidence and I'm not the city engineer to know exactly but standard is 14 feet on a single-family residential lot that I think most of us live on okay second number I want to check is then where the discussion is do we have in addition to that typical 14 feet an additional 20 feet for the setback 15 feet for the setback or a 10 feet for the setback correct that's the question before you yes my question to you is and I I realize that you you did the caveat of you're not a city engineer and there is some you know variability what if the what if the setback is 24 feet from the curb or conversely 28 feet from the curb the reason I asked that is I'm looking for ways that our residents can very easily measure and comply with our ordinance and as noted people don't always really know their property line they think they know their property line but they don't know their property line and if we made things easy from something that is very visible it's a curb is that the point of measurement that we should be going from to make things in like every day every person's language that they could read and know immediately how to comply what's wrong with that acting mayor go see members of the Council enjoy the challenges is that right always do very right so if we do have it set back from the curb we could still be in the right-of-way right always very as much as types of Lots that we have that are corner Lots are through lots or triangular-shaped lots lots with only three sides so that's that's part of the challenge with that curbs change so probably I don't want to say more than a lot line but once the property's plaited it's pretty much plaited and that's where it is um curbs can change as we add bike lanes as we had sidewalks they cook it wider they could get narrower so um there's that and then I think it also create what could create an equity issue because somebody's right away is wider than somebody else's right-of-way right versus a lot is a lot is a lot so my setback every one setback is based on the property line and it doesn't matter how wide the right away is that's that's pretty fair thank you just a few thoughts when you have to consider easements and utilities as part of it as well right oh yeah any other questions or thoughts an order decision this right now I'm good with ten what's that I'm good with ten you go with ten okay Dan well it's kind of a foregone conclusion I'm good with ten okay they asked do you think I changed my mind I'm cautious about ten if we decided if 10 is the number and I don't know a crystal ball I'm good with 10 until 10 shows up as being an issue somewhere else I understand you're saying oh yeah absolutely what's good for one isn't necessarily good for right do we a question for staff do we without going through the variance process can we have an administrative either it's a hardship qualification or a fencing or existing screen something where when you have a grade change where the if we went 15 we could go 10 in certain circumstances or is that too difficult to put in the ordinance you know because if there's an existing fence or if there's a great change on the lot where the you know there's a in this case there is one there's a there's a dramatic grade drop from the curb from the road and there's a fence that those circumstances are granted attend where others are a 15 or is that not something you can put into an orbit members of the council what we can do so administrative variances are bad because you we need consistency in a public process when we vary from our ordinance right so leaving that up to one person in a back office to interpret it this is okay and that's okay that's not that's not a good process necessarily or transparent process but as long as we have standards in the ordinance that speak to typography for instance so it gets more difficult it makes the ordinance more complicated right 10 is 10 is 10 that's pretty easy that's pretty clear but if we have but and if you have slopes that are more than three to one or five to one and your structure doesn't fit you can go down to this you know then it gets a little bit more complicated but as long as the standards are clear and they're written written in the ordinance then that is something that we can do versus an administrative variance process did our mirror weigh in and this one Shh I don't believe she did excuse me no she did not okay thank you so my 10 members at the council as part of our process this will go through the Planning Commission for the work comes to you regardless okay I like stadium hardship then we're gonna have to list 50 different potential hardships and I think the direction is go 10 and taking the planning at the mere go so soon one more thing if we reduce this to 10 do you want to reduce the through lot setback for accessory structures to 10 so that way you think it's consistent and we yeah okay so you have a clear direction thank you okay you got the clear direction on that and now we're on to item number 6 and that is a round table the first order is code enforcement discussion corrected versus complaint and councilmembers Schultz's asked this to be put on our round table okay so looking at how we handle code enforcement and you know we have we've taken this up in one way or another several times but I think it's time for council to decide what is our policy on this because we've we've talked around that we're not not really wanting to do so much proactive but we haven't set a clear policy and so I do think it's time for us to give staff a clear direction they only do what we tell them to do so that's up to us on this the reason why I bring this up is how do we want our city to interact with our with our residents and do we want our code enforcement to be actively driving around and seeking violations and for that to be the way that we interact with our residents or do we want it where it's more of a complaint system meaning you and your neighbor tried to work it out you weren't able to work it out it's impacting your quality of life so now you're asking the city to help you out with this and that's where we step in to help neighbors be good neighbors to one another and my suggestion is is that we go to a complaint based method so that we are stepping in when when neighbors aren't able to just work it out amongst themselves then we can assist them with that and just be helpful in that way so that is the discussion I would like to have but that's the policy that we need to put in place and that would be different from the policy that we have had in previous years to where we check out a whole whole area of this city and kind of go through it and say if there's any code violations and then have people bring that up and we've been through the city we've proactively been through the whole city so I think it's time to back off of that and that's what I would like to know is would you like to have that discussion in more detail would you like to get it more about that would you like to consider this are you asking this to go on the whole day work session I am asking for it to go on the whole day work session any other comments you two will probably hear it but when I was out door knocking this was something that I heard a lot about so I would like to discuss this further cause mark Healey agreed wish we actually could do it before the old day work position in 2020 but it is an appropriate meeting to have that discussion we got a lot of stuff on our work session to the end of the year so I would say what about all-day work session before ok number two is the city ordinance review and councilmember Schultz so a city ordinance review this is another case where we keep pecking away at things on the margins on the edges the other frustrating thing and I'm sure staff is getting very annoyed at this is we keep returning to some of these same same topics and it's because we take a little piece of it and then later on we realize oh oh you know we wanted to look at this little piece of it and then we wanted to look at this little piece of it I think we're at a point in our city where we have had ordinances such as what do you consider a front yard you know only for a hundred years or you know however that length of time is and there's been a lot of changes there's changes in how people live there's changes in you know what we even use there's just been a lot of changes since a lot of these codes have been put on some of our codes and ordinances and regulations and rather than continue to just nibble at them as they come up what I propose is that we do something similar to what the city of crystal completed and it was a lengthy process and they had a citizen mission go through all of their ordinances and they brought them up to date they consolidated them they took out the outdated ones they updated but just as importantly they put it into language that the average person could understand they took out a lot of the jargon they just really cleaned it up and when you go and look at their their ordinance and then you compare it to our ordinance you can see how messy ours looks and how complicated and how we've slapped bandaid after band-aid after band-aid and change on ours it is a lengthier process and I I know our city manager also spoke with crystal about their process and what they went through and if she could say a word or two about that if that would be okay noé yeah acting mayor Gustafson and council i did reach out to the city manager and crystal and walked she walked me through their process to councilmember Schultz's point they convened a task force of about 14 people council provided direction and what they're the end goal was going to be convened a task force it was a task force made up of not your commission members but other just residents she said throughout the length of it which was about two and a half years there's a core of about seven people that participated and really engaged in the process monthly meetings very disciplined group monthly meetings primarily staffed by the city attorney in the city manager while departments came in and were able to weigh in on the ordinances under their purview I would say about a two and a half year process for those meetings to occur the council adopted kind of the findings and the result and then there proceeded with a recodification so while she did not they did not track staffs time to do it they did track the city attorneys time um so it was a considerable investment over a number of years but she did say it was invaluable sir size did take a lot of time so you know cautious about if this is a if this is an endeavor we want to pursue which I think there's value to it just understanding that the both the resources in time and an investment that we would want to put behind it I agree with the councilmember Schultz over the years I often tell people this is we don't know all the ordinances and staff doesn't always know other ordinances to check into it and it's usually when somebody comes to us with something then I go oh you can't do that I think we go why and so I think it would be helpful as a city to go through and and with with it with a group that aren't our commissioners I agree it should be someone the people outside that that group area that aren't the insiders basically and kind of go through all that and see what we can come up with because I think it's a very useful for us you know you were up in Duluth all of us were together talking about how do we engage our citizens more and how do we make the City Hall more friendly and more inviting that you eat you want to show up at meetings and I think that's one of the ways we can do that is by getting our citizens and and businesses involved and really just going through all of our codes and it's and it's gonna be a lengthy process I know that I mean forever so I I would love to see us take on something like that I think it's being very helpful for us I like the prospect of customer friendly I love it when we get citizens engaged and I agree wholeheartedly this has been you know city's ordinance this there's a massive amount of different things and it's like an encyclopedia that you can't really master even though the city staff does probably have a master's degree in our ordinances literally um it's it's difficult because times change things of all over many years and and as you noted acting mayor Gustafson we don't really know where the issues are until an application comes forward and and in many cases or many but in a lot of cases not everybody comes forward to help us change it for the better because it's not easy to fight City Hall for say and it's sort of interpreted that as something that is way too big to change and so I think it may cause some lack of reinvestment in our city because they bump into something and I just don't want to hassle with it or they'll just pick the easy path conform when they really wanted to go different direction so anyway that's weeds and saw it apologize I I think it's worthwhile doing it's gonna take a period of time as you noted from their experience but I kind of see it as a 20/21 thing because I feel like we've already loaded up 2020 but is this a all day work session request I think it's I think it's just giving staff direction to start seeing what its gonna look like to put something like that together I mean Melanie's been doing some research on it a little bit already in right I mean I'm I'm in favor of just I guess get it work it in I I think it's important it's not urgent right it's it's there's nothing pressing us but it is important so I would support pursuing it and it'll find its timetable I think with all the other priorities that are both urgent and important yeah I think it falls in line with all of our branding and the redevelopment of the city and we're talking about changing things in the hoc they've been around since the 90s and there's a lot of change going on the city so it's kind of all fits together as one package you're saying 90s was a long time ago I think we got some direction on that thank you okay perfect all right next as the food truck ordinance and that is councilmember Keely well I am a big fan of food trucks I'm a big fan of having a lot of flexibility I I'm frustrated when I go to prayer lake and find food trucks right on Main Street and in Lakeville find them here and there it's very possible that our ordinance currently might allow that same thing but it seems like we continually run into some roadblocks as we discuss the ordinance and I really don't I really don't see a lot of reason why we overly and excessively govern food trucks there's probably some great rationale that we'll learn through this process that we're not aware of but I definitely want to push the envelope in freeing up our food truck vendors to come into the city and support this extremely popular growing demand and you know we have we have new businesses coming in we have new businesses that will probably want to have food trucks and I just want to remove the barriers that seem to be constantly popping up I thought we had took care of this a few years back and apparently we just as as councilmember Schulz put it probably just nibbled around the edge but didn't really get into it deep enough to say let's remove more of these barriers and let them come in and and so we send that message to the food truck industry that Burnsville is open for business for food trucks too so I would ask the council to support having staff look at this ordinance and bring it back and let's do a round two on it and maybe we can get it a hundred percent across the finish line this time and and have a more flexible ordinance for food trucks well being that I no longer own the food truck I'll be happy to participate in that discussion wait food trucks are kind of the new norm so I don't see any reason to limit them the way we do currently so I would be in favor of pursuing this because my results okay thumbs up alright that ends the round table and now we move on to the reports on they're both just for a point of clarification by acting mayor Gustafson and council members I think what staff would recommend is we take you know the off season kind of over the winter and engage with the community on this conversation then be prepared to bring something back to the council for consideration early part of 2020 for that season if that seems acceptable timeline just a question is is there an on and off see I mean know a summer as naturally as a probably a much bigger season but food trucks operate year-round some food trucks do but typically a lot of them by by winter they're closing down until that you it'll spring time again well I would but it but I will add this though we've identified some things where somebody wants to put something in the city that may require a brewpub than what a food truck with it that would delay that until we take it up next year if a farmers market in the heart of the city wanted to do something today with a food truck that would delay that till next year I mean so we'd be pushing we'd be pushing all that out till next year for any type of development that required would require food trucks to come to our city that's just a couple of examples on the world councilmember Schultz I don't I don't see this as hugely urgent but I also don't see it as that big of a deal so my recommendation I could just wave my wand would be that this is a I would like to see this much quicker I don't see this as a big change and looking at our calendar once we get to you know I yes we have budget and we have all that like I I know that's an overriding thing but the rest of our fall is and winter is not heavy on our calendar yet so if it's a small thing and we can just knock it out let's just let's just knock it out I would like to see the schedule sooner I I leaned towards this is almost a just do it with we give a slight bit of direction and it's a just do it but that's me in New York Gustav Senate counsel I'm not intending to say this it needs to be a year-long process don't get me wrong I think we're middle of August it my suggestion was you know let's give us a couple months to have some conversations with the community pull it together so everything is teed up in in 2020 for us to roll it out but not to have any undue delay that wasn't my intent it was just yeah we'll need a little bit of time to work through that but I understand the council's desire around this so we'll move forward yes I understand the need to put it together and probably won't have this ready in a week but when you say communication with the community what does that entail council member work been in council it would be my suggestion that we at least have a conversation with our with our restaurant community and say we're looking to make some changes to our food truck ordinance do you have any feedback that we want to be aware of now if that's not a step that the council wants to pursue streamlining the regulations would be very easy to do so certainly if you have a thought on that I'd welcome that and we can go from there we'll be Saints the heart of the city where else can't we have food trucks I see I see food trucks at businesses all over town that's why I think we have one area that I'm aware of unless there's another one well acting mayor Gustafson members of the council my recollection is on our ordinance we went through this about ten years ago wait oh nine something like that and where we landed you can have them in heart of the city I think it's on 126th Street there identify that you can go there with a permit they're also allowed in our parks with the park permit from the from the parks department perks where they allow them I think where they're set up you can have them as part of a special event you can also have them as part of an employee event so we've got some large employers in town so if they're having an event for their employees they're allowed to have them there as well but the way the ordinance is set up like in the heart of the city is an example which we found out about that you can't bring a food truck in and have it on your private property and have people buy up but but you can everywhere else in town I'm calling on private property councilmember Gustafson the ordinance is set up so that there this is all the council approve this after we went through the process a decade ago was there was concern I think over taking business away from existing businesses and so to not allow them they're specifically prohibited from being in areas that they would serve the general public other than what I already told you I would on the public streets because I there may not have been any restaurants there at the time or the ones that were there were supportive of them or certainly part of an employee event they're brought in to not serve the public no matter where that business would be located so that was the concern my recollection it's back exactly food trucks first came to light around here it was a concern protecting the brick-and-mortar restaurants now a lot of the brick-and-mortar restaurants have their own food trucks as well in there they're out parking around other restaurants so I mean I think that whole thing is kind of way and over the years because it is a societal thing and that's weed that way I mean all the time some I don't I don't know that going off going to the restaurants to get their permission to put in food trucks is necessarily the direction we need to go I tend to agree I would agree I just forwarded an article on from 2018 which of the cities are the most food truck friendly and Minneapolis is on the list at 16th but it's ranked very high and it's ranked 78 out of 100 Denver's actually got a score of 104 so there's I think there's some information out there that we can learn from the best ranked cities and and hopefully we can shorten the duration of the staff required time to be able to get to where we're trying to get to thank you okay clear yep perfect okay now we can go to our advisory boards councilmember mm a metro cities meeting this morning and we discussed the new Local Option Sales Tax Wow that went into place and that conversation turned to LGA funding because the point of restricting local option was that the state would provide local aid to cities in lieu of local taxing authority so it seems the conversation might now turn to looking at the formula and how that is decided since they're taking one away then they should own what the reasoning was for taking it away in the first place so that was interesting I mean to be continued Planning Commission we had our new chair erica henderson start last night and our new vice chair robert Timmerman they did a wonderful job and like to extend the congratulations to them fire muster is plugging away and looks like everything's going smoothly and that is all I have Keeley give me a second council members call sniper shots but you know mine actually meets Thursday so that's not back to council member Keeley I did not buy you much time no let me talk in light of the hour I'm gonna be brief um good thing we're sitting nothing of significance in report okay the the race that was a Charlie Craig move by the way the corner of Brad band meets tomorrow I won't be able to be there so our alternate will be either in my stead Thursday we meet the CVB and our agenda items are our strategic plan and the bylaws the CBD so that will be he'll be announcing that next month and what happens there and a reminder to everybody that art and all that jazz is this weekend we got a lot of food trucks down there which is good music all day it's free to the public and we hope everyone can come out and see nothing else I will adjourn this meeting you