e e e e council member nordby here mayor mongi here thank you very much can I get a motion to adopt the agenda please so moved so move council member Norby second second council member Cole all those in favor say I I I thank you very much first topic manager we got two topics up this evening first one is going to be the payment management discussion city engineer Mor thank you Mr Mayor members of the council um so this is uh uh kind of a preliminary followup to some of the effort that was done last year we do do um uh a an overall roadway Network evaluation on an annual basis as a part of just regular uh engineering and Public Works collaboration trying to keep tabs in a quantitative Fashion on the the um the quality and the condition of our roadway Network um this goes back to 2012 which was the first time the city of North St Paul had uh started looking at again in a quanti a quantitative way um the condition of the roadways uh both both asphalt and concrete knowing that we've got some concrete pavement downtown uh but primarily most of our roads and alleys are asphalt bituminous and they obviously I don't need to educate you on the fact that they deteriorate over time right um and you have been a part of budget discussions and capital Improvement planning discussions um and so again uh we have not yet kind of finished the 2024 version of evaluating what uh the current condition is we we look at a third of the city every year so every three years we have a generally upto-date and accurate picture of what the overall city is looking like that looking at at this time um but as a part of our regular activity we are um not only just looking at what the condition of the roads are but we're trying to project uh using uh computer software that is designed for these purposes and using kind of um uh nationally recognized algorithms if you will to try to identify uh not only how fast are things deteriorating over time depending on their age have they recently been overlaid have they recently been reconstructed and every road is different uh could deteriorate faster versus slower if it's built on Clay versus better soils right so uh there's no standard kind of formula to be able to say that a road will need to be reconstructed in 20 years or 25 years or even 40 years everyone is going to be different different cities are different and so we're looking at specific to North St Paul um what is happening over time projecting into the future what are some potential funding levels that might be appropriate this is all hypothetical and speculative information there is a handout I believe at your desk we didn't get it in the packet uh in time however we do have uh what again as I mentioned is designed to build off of the most recent look that we have within the city um and then also looking forward into the future with a couple different um scenarios again hypothetical um and I'll step you through these uh referring to the handout and I don't sorry I don't have my screen hooked up but hopefully uh that is going to be good is that going to be good enough if I just kind of Step through the the paper copy and the handout okay so really what we're looking at here is a timeline I did it uh kind of in this format because it's more similar to what you're used to seeing for your Capital Improvement plan where uh moving from left to right are the years uh and uh on the Y AIS if you will uh moving up and down there's different scenarios now the first scenario scenario one scenario two and scenario three so those were things that were actually looked at and prepared uh and documented in a memo I can't recall if it was presented to council but certainly it's something that Public Works use uh in terms of trying to talk about budgeting um level investment um inform those discussions with you all as you enter into those kind of decisions with respect to not just the next year budget but what is the capital uh Improvement plan looks like look like for the next 10 years I can't recall if it's a 10 year plan I believe the current adopted CIP uh is 20 uh 2024 through 2033 right so it's almost a 10 year plan um and so the first three scenarios as I mentioned that th those were prepared last year we only looked out to uh 2029 in terms of looking into the future um and so that's why if you look on each one of those uh horizontal bars for scenarios one two and three the road ratings or the network rating which is an average of all of our roadways not alleys but just roadways and only the asphalt roadways within the city that's the average for the whole city that uh again you look at individual streets and segments and certainly if if you live on that street as a resident within the city of North St Paul you're probably most more most likely familiar with the road you live on or the roads that you travel on every day this is just an average across the whole city again it's a it's a quantitative metric that cities can use just to get a general sense of uh what the average rating for their streets is overall is it increasing is it decreasing what kind of an effect on that overall average rating is the level of investment that any given City might be putting towards uh pavement maintenance pavement preservation um bonded Capital Improvement projects like larger reconstruction projects that might be also looking at underground facilities like utilities water sewer storm water that sort of thing and we have all of those things actually programmed into the city's currently adopted Capital Improvement plan from 24 to 2033 in different years and different levels of investment and so again last year uh only going out to 2029 the three scenarios at that time were scenario one what if we just stopped investing in our roadways from a from a capital investment and recapitalization standpoint and just did nothing and you can see in a general sense that the uh overall roadway Network starting in 2023 decreases from a 56.8 down to a 41.4 in in 2029 the three years previous identified 2018 2019 2022 there's a little bit of Gap there we stopped looking at things during the pandemic um but you can generally see that even though there were Capital Improvement projects like around Silver Lake was reconstructed in 2018 2019 those are the actual as measured quantitative average ratings for the whole roadway at that time right and then again this looking what into the future what might happen if we stopped spending money on our roads again average would decrease from 56.8 to 41.4 um scenario two which was just asked of me at the time as a what if you know because I think at that time there was some discussion about from a pavement preservation standpoint so not reconstruct but overlay or uh partial reconstruction or Rehabilitation where you're actually not looking at the underground utilities uh but maybe doing what you can in the most costeffective manner with just the asphalt only right um and so scenario two was let's just uh imagine that we are not working on P pavement preservation at all but only the 2025 and 2027 reconstruction projects which are the Casey Lake neighborhoods phase one and phase two and those have been on the list for quite some time what kind of an effect does that have have and as you can see uh as reported last year it still does decrease significantly uh even though you're investing a significant amount in 2025 and 2027 with those full reconstructs of those neighborhoods it is a smaller area it's a smaller footprint the city does have a fairly large uh City network of streets that you know that lower average is pulling everything down and so even with those two reconstruct projects on the list only um it's decreasing from a 53.9 to a 43.6 so you ended a slightly improved uh point but certainly not holding ground scenario three again developed last year which is about uh I think it is actually where the budget landed and where the current capital Improvement plan and I should mention that Capital Improvement plans and cips are subject to change they're not really meant to represent extremely accurately what's going to happen in every instance uh much more than one or two years but again from a financial planning standpoint it's an important tool uh but scenario 3 uh represented what you currently generally have in the budget now which is an approx and when I use these numbers I'm not adjusting for inflation but the table does in adjust for inflation so uh you will see some of the investment numbers go up but in general we're trying to represent 2023 or 2024 and then you know there is some adjustment for inflation the assumed inflation here is the same as the capital Improvement plan and the and uh future budget buting which I believe is 2.5% that may be low it may be high we just don't know but you know just so we're all on the same page I tried to make this as closely aligned with the CIP as what you guys are all used to looking at and what you did approve last year so scenario three again only going out to 2029 that adds in in addition to the two Casey lake neighborhood projects um and nothing not looking out beyond that but uh not looking out Beyond 2028 it adds in a approximately a 30 $350,000 investment for maintenance overlays so those are smaller projects or projects where a much lower level of um uh reconstruction or I guess Improvement is needed typically you don't need any engineering or did plans or anything like that those are things that Public Works can uh and has certainly the last several years quoted out individually without my involvement um so $350,000 for maintenance overlays that's coming out of the Street Maintenance fund and then in the um even years 2024 2026 and 2028 again adjusted for inflation a $1.1 million investment uh also for pavement preservation purposes and those dollars you may be familiar with the the current year 2024 pavment uh Rehabilitation project so that is actually taking a combination of these funds in into a bid package that we currently have a contractor um uh under contract two they'll be actually starting uh the very first part of August done by September on a variety of streets throughout the the um City again knowing that that's budget constrained these are not uh bonded projects and so uh these are uh projects that they need to be right sized for the funds available right so that's uh trying to connect a project with what I'm representing in the 2024 column for C three so that builds out again also taking into account the the Casey lake neighborhood reconstruct projects um that does slightly better so decreasing um well actually getting it to a 56.4 to start out with taking into account what we're doing this year right now that's already under contract but it still is actually uh falling off slightly until 2029 you get to a 52.4 now here's where the update comes in and again this is preliminary hypothetical um as the data for this year comes in we'll have some more accuracy here but it is generally representing the level of investment versus the returns if you will if we're going to use that overall Network number as a metric a quantitative metric to represent what you're getting out of that investment and it goes without saying but we have many many many miles of streets in the city of North St Paul that have not seen the benefit of a robust ongoing maintenance plan like we've had for about the last 10 years right so that is kind of what we're working against here um and there's only so much you can do in a year budget constraints are real economic um realities are something that City councils have to uh wrestle with right and so that's really what we're talking about here so scenario 4 is simply taking the same thing that I just explained in scenario 3 right like this is your CIP this is your current CIP but the question was posed with LA late last week was for the work shop tonight well let's project that out Beyond where your memo did last year let's get that through the end of the CIP what's that going to do so again you can see that it goes much further the further to the right out through 2033 which is the end of your CIP and a hypothetical ending uh overall Network rating of 56.3 and we started at 56.4 so that scenario scario is just about holding uh our own right I mean we're we're not necessarily significantly improving the overall quality of the roads um but the level of spending that you've identified right now in your Capital Improvement plan that's been analyzed by your Finance director that you've had discussions and that you've currently adopted right now uh certainly does by the numbers by engineering analysis does project out through 2034 to be about uh the same as it is today there's some ups and downs there but it's generally flat that does include bonding projects as I mentioned not just pavant Rehabilitation but previously identified bonding projects like the two Casey Lake projects in 25 and 27 and also in the CIP I think right now it's called Margaret Street reconstruction it may or may not be a specific street but there is a more major re reconstruct project that's identified in 2029 so we're identifying that I think think Dan had just told me before the meeting that um this may even be a little more conservative than what we have in your in the currently adopted CIP right so uh it could be that if the numbers in the current CIP are followed through with that actually you would see a slightly better return than what I'm showing in this table but again generally flat um and scenario five again this was a wh if uh to see what would the level of investment need to be not saying let's do larger projects necessarily um for the Reconstruction projects but looking at from a pavement preservation standpoint so again these are Mill and overlay projects or these are uh partial uh they're not reconstruct project we're doing very little utility work with these projects similar to what is under contract right now that'll be completed this fall in North St Paul and but I bumped it up just as a what if scenario trying to find a level of investment that might actually show start showing an improving Trend overall Network um and there's no right or wrong again like you guys are making are looking at all the information uh you know economic um uh political everything right and you're making your budgetary decisions with all of those things in mind but again just for the purposes of trying to look at what it would take if in fact uh an overall improving trend on that overall Network rating for the city's streets would be something that would be um wanting to get closer to or achievable you could do better or worse than it right it just depends on on the level of investment um and so what this is representing in addition to those reconstruct projects in 25 27 and 29 is bumping that pavement preservation number from $1.1 million up to approximately $2 million again adjusted for inflation so I'm using current year numbers right now so adding about $900,000 to what you have been budgeting or what you're prepared in your current budget your current capital Improvement plan and your current uh analysis and impact to the levy I guess is an important thing right we don't have an Enterprise fund that's generating Revenue specific for Street improvements right where it's it's unlike water there's no Water Utility Fund that is funding water main improvements for streets right so there's no corollary it's basically general fund dollars unless we happen to have a grant or we're using state aid dollars but from a from a 80% of our system is not state aid streets uh and we so we can't use those State dollars so this is an analysis of what you would be doing from a city Levy um and City dollars moving forward so what you can see in that last scenario again um $2 million is not an arbitrary number I did kind of look at a couple different things um it was necessarily a dollar that I wanted to try to find that would again hypothetically show an improving trend line and starting in 2024 with an overall network of 56.4 in 2034 we're projecting an overall network of 60.8 so that is it's not a significant Improvement again you've got a lot of miles of older roads that are pulling that average down and in this scenario you're certainly potentially uh investing more starting in 2026 I put a box around that the $2 million in 2026 that's the first year that hypothetically again that those dollars would be bumped up all the other reconstruct years in 25 2 27 and 29 stay the same you keep adjusting for 2.5% uh inflation and again that does show an improving trend line that could go up or down depending on the actual projects or the actual mileage that uh is picked again again these are um not necessarily all identified Street by Street and so our results could be better or worse but generally again we're looking for something to give you all an update in terms of if this went out long term uh and if we kept level of investment the same or decreased it or increased it this would be from a quantitative standpoint what you could expect to see over the years moving forward right so with that I think I'll stand for any questions unless uh Finance director or city manager has anything that they would like to add or ask me to add um but happy to answer any questions that you might have so correct me good is 70 rating well so that's an excellent question right so if you're referring to the overall City rating every city is different it depends on their goals their financial goals um what they and typically these decisions are made by city council right North St Paul has never gotten to that point we have had several discussions with previous councils about what a 50 looks like what a in terms of pictures of streets what is a 50 what is a 55 what is a 60 what is 6570 right there are examples of that over time and I can certainly bring back more information as you go through your budget and CIP discussions moving forward but the city has not ever kind of picked a number some cities have stated goals they might separate those goals goals based on uh residential roads versus collector roads right that's not uncommon I would say what I uh have seen is a general goal that doesn't mean that every city is at that goal but they might want to be trending towards that goal in the upper 60s there are some outlier cities that either they started with better roads or they've just been very aggressive with you know their level of investment that do have goals uh in the mid 70s and in some instan is up to 80 even um but again it's very specific to every city and I would caution the council against trying to apply another City's goal to North St Paul uh also every city has a different track record right like I mentioned North St Paul really started looking at asset management and payment ratings and you know well we got to start somewhere so how do we pick that was that's 2012 so that's um a long time ago in terms of being able to do several projects to get us to where we are today but uh some cities have been doing the an aggressive Capital Improvement plan on their roads for 20 years for example which would you know you wouldn't be able to compare apples to apples you know one City's progress and goals can be increased or decreased as time goes on too and I certainly wouldn't have any kind of perspective on what got a city to say our goal is 80 versus we are okay with a goal of 68 for example but I would say that certainly um to answer your question you know higher 60s would be something that would not be uncommon to try to strive for knowing that several of your streets might be lower than that and some certainly if they've been reconstructed or rehabilitated in the near or in the uh near term last several years they're going to be at the upper end of that scale uh and so it's always going to be a balance that's what I was trying to figure out too was because I saw Maplewood in their newsletter they're at either 71.1 or 71 or 74.1 I couldn't remember what it was that's I was trying to figure out they judge and what the top level is so question any other questions I have some questions so we certainly have County Roads and state roads does that include that factor and these are these are strict just our local city streets correct so um Ramsey County for example has their own pavement Management program we're going to see the results of that uh coming up here this fall on mcnight road so that's not a reconstruct that's their pavement preservation project certainly County bigger budget uh and they're doing projects countywide you know each year but similarly uh and I can't speak to whether or not they have a goal or not but they're trying to accomplish the same thing where um you know you're spending the right amount of capital investment dollars in the right place at the right time you know not too soon or not too late uh because things do get more expensive if you let a road get get too far down the road eventually you get to a point where a road may not be suitable for an overlay anymore like you have to actually reconstruct it and that's certainly more expensive to do that you remind me the um just different uh lifespan of the different types of um uh that we have here so we have maintenance overlays how long does that last versus reconstruct Etc sure uh and maybe to answer that question I'll take one half step back just to in in a broad sense and these are things that in our in our general annual memo which again I can bring back and we can talk more about um but if you were going to build a road from scratch and just kind of let it do nothing I mean you you may it'll go to gravel at some point uh and depending on a lot of factors like the weather and the soil that it's built on and you might expect uh that that road might last between 30 and 45 years 40 years maybe I think our standard curve which our standard degradation curve as time goes on it gets worse and worse and worse and and that's an algorithm or a curve that's supplied by ashto and some of these other kind of nationally recognized organizations that a lot of different cities use I think that ends at year 40 right could be more could be less uh what we are striving to do here with a more modern I guess approach to Pavement Rehabilitation or pavement management over time as we're trying to as that curve goes down at different points we want it to go up a bit right so whether that's a millon overlay or some other kind of improvement and so as time goes on we want to kind of soften that curve and we'd like that to that to land at like 60 or 70 years so it's not quite necessarily doubling things but I think again it takes an ongoing attention to not skipping steps sometimes Gap can have an adverse effect on you know you if you get past a certain point you might miss an opportunity for a more cost effective lesser expensive uh Improvement that might in the long range 70 years range have a big impact okay so that's kind of the goal and that's what we're trying to do over time by overlaying projects um rather than just waiting until the end and then reconstructing them at that point and studies will show that generally you know you will get more benefit per roadway mile by doing those uh life cycle costs um over time as opposed to just letting it um fall apart reconstruct it let it fall apart reconstruct it if you go several Cycles into the future you're going to be money ahead by actually as a great metaphor changing the oil in your car at regular intervals instead of just driving it until the engine seizes up right so it's just a part of looking at it from a regular maintenance standpoint now to answer your question specifically um for a middle of the road uh Improvement which might be a um a Reclamation where we grind through all the pavement and into the subbase and we've done that in a few instances like uh Helen uh Helen from the Maplewood border down to I think 17th Avenue um is one example where that was ground up uh all the way through uh mindat uses a 25 year lifespan for that so um it's kind of considered a partial reconstruct you're not actually getting into the subsoils and totally cutting out any kind of bad Clays or anything there I think that might be a little conservative and I would expect that we would probably see you know more than 25 years in that type of of an improvement on the more full side uh of a lifespan if you've fully reconstructed the road like where you just core everything out and you're bringing in brand new sand as a subbase and you're really improving the drainage because it's the drain the bad drainage and the bad soils underneath that really let make the pavement break up over time if you're fully reconstructing roads and we've used this approach on all the roads that have been reconstructed in North St Paul since 2012 um that that should be you know 35 40 45 years again with but that's if you do nothing if you're doing some you know interim improvements there like an overlay that should extend out further right so a little bit better than a partial reconstruction on the Lesser side of things uh um like a a Mill and overlay where you're only taking a portion of the pavement and leaving some of the structure underneath or even just going all the way through but stopping at the gravel underneath and then repaving um we would consider those Mill and overlay improvements um that should get you into the 15 minimum 20 to 25 year range depending on the roadway um as I said you know like mindat throws out 25 for a partial reconstruct and I think think that again with good attention you you can do better than that I think that you can do 20 to 25 years with a Mill and overlay again as long as you're staying on top of little things like sealing the cracks every three years you know that's something that if you if you walk away from the cracks and just let It crack and the rain and the and the freeze and the thaw from the winter gets in there and the salt gets in there then it's not going to last that long but um and on something like for we've talked about this before something like the maintenance overlays which is pretty simple we're just Milling kind of the edge of the road and crowning up in the center mostly putting all of that asphalt over the top of the old road it's it's better than a Band-Aid right it's not just covering it up and then we think we're going to have to do it again in two three years I mean there's really good opportunity especially considering the work that I've seen that have has been done in the city thus far um to get uh better than 15 years you know 20 years I think would be uh pretty reasonable for some of those streets you might have some sections or segments because the soils are poor underneath uh where it maybe doesn't quite make it to that point but I think reasonably uh you know 20 years is a good time frame for a for a maintenance overlay to expect especially if you're again sealing the cracks taking care of any issues with the curb and gutter that you might have sometimes we have underground utility things that lend themselves to breaking up the pavement earlier so if we're trying to keep tabs on that and I know Public Works does again uh that's where I think where those would land and that's I'm not getting into ceiling cracks I mean those types of ongoing maintenance activities they don't really have a lifespan um it's generally recommended that you're trying to get those things taken care of every three years and I think that's what we have in the budget right now we've been deferring maintenance on some so how many of these when you go out are we able to do these other Alternatives besides ripping them up because of the condition they're in um many of them we have uh yep lesser versus reconstruct is what you're getting at yes exactly really what's been driving the program from a reconstruction standpoint especially looking into the future are more utility issues um or that would be the idea certainly there is a shift in ideology here from 20202 starting in about 2029 um where we would move away from larger reconstruct projects because the underground utility piece is so expensive right and we want to or at least Public Works and myself have and finance have talked about the ability to Just sh knowing that if there isn't a pressing need like we don't have a block where water main breaks are happening five in one winter or something like that moving that level of investment into the streets for more overlays and more Rehabilitation efforts to cover more real estate to be able to have a greater impact so I forgot to mention that but there is a bit of a change there that following 2029 it's every year but it's just it's less of a focus on underground and reconstructs and more of a focus on pavement preservation and pavement Rehabilitation I guess and at some point it's I think it's I didn't do the math in my uh head coming into this meeting so I was like prepared but I believe the first reconstruct project in North St Paul was 2014 uh and so we're probably looking at a overlay uh you know somewhere off off the map here 20 uh 14 24 34 yeah 20 30 so 2034 would be 20 years so you know the city should consider now if you drive that street it still looks pretty good you don't want to let it get to the point where it looks bad though because then you'd lose the ability to just do kind of like do a topping to it or a less expensive kind of Maintenance overlay and so that should be the opportunity that we're looking for in that uh early 2030s or 2030 to 2035 I would say to see if we can do that and then we can let that go it'll be done and taken care of uh and it'll be on to the next cycle of another you know 15 or 20 years before the next overlay and usually if things are all working well and this was reconstructed again from scratch good subsoils or as good as we could do at that time uh you could do three overlays on it potentially until uh and if the soils hold up underneath I mean maybe even more right so you can keep doing those on 15 to 20 or 25 year intervals and not have to come back to that neighborhood and fully reconstruct it so that's where that 70-year kind of thing comes into play we want we would like to get through three and maybe even more uh overlays to get to that end point and then at that point uh it's been 70 years since the Street's been reconstructed and that would be the next opportunity for a full reset on the infrastructure life cycle on that street but if you let the base go then you can't do that correct that's like that's like um Charles between Charles in 17th and the 36 the curbs are all cop excuse me we all concrete and all that but it's just flaking apart and I was told I had to rip it up and probably start over that's kind of a candidate for a complete reset at least on the inside right full reconstruct sometimes means that you're taking all of the curbs we do get a lot of email that's why I'm trying to get out we get a lot of emails from from people about streets that's probably one of the main things we do is why is our streets like this m MH okay thank you any other questions on uh for Morgan just to kind of uh show you that uh the scenario number four is what the plan that we're currently on which um last year you adopted and went into effect this year with the 2% Levy in increase being dedicated and again that 2% increase is year after year after year if we were to adopt that new scenario number five it would be a 4% increase and that 4% increase would have to go into effect in 2025 um to be able to afford um that scenario right now it's at it's at 2% it's going to go to 4% it would have to go to four if if if the city council decided they wanted to move up to um that uh scenario number five that's in there and again as you can see that you know at the at 2033 that's bringing you up to the you know low 60s 60.6 um so I mean that's a that's a piece of a discussion that we're going to end up having to have into the future but Morgan I'm a viser so I think it would be helpful if we did have pictures like you said um that you'd be able to provide just so we can see what stages are and the community can see the stages as well so we all have a better idea of what we may need yeah absolutely and part of it is when we look at the numbers of 2023 and 2024 you know that kind of money we're only still getting up to 56 or 60% we're not gaining a lot of ground it seems like to me because you look around the streets right now and you compare maybe you know % better that doesn't seem like much but if you were to do if you if you look at it in comparison to scenario number one where to do nothing yeah but I'm saying I think that's shows how far behind we are I think exactly all the years that hasn't been done we're having to do a lot more to it but we also can't compare ourselves to other cities like Morgan said um and ideally I would be interested in knowing what our city rating should be or what we should focus in on where you I had mentioned is 70 considered good or is it too high for our city what what would be our average yeah it's a judgment call and like I said that's a city council decision I think having photos and a and a robust discussion revolved around um you know what balancing all of the factors economic realities um you know everything that you folks have to take into consideration in terms of making the decisions that you do make um what is what is the representative kind of average street that we would like to have and then working from that you know one of the analyses that engineering can do which we haven't gotten to because there is an estated goal we can and I could even run just hypothetical so um if the goal was 70 and we were going to try to hit that by some year in the future uh you know what would the level of investment need to be so we can do budget con constraint scenarios which is that's more what is what you're looking at here where if you invest a certain amount of money in your pavement what what are the results going to be or we can do a results constrained uh type of scenario where specific numbers each year are not necessarily the object but you're trying to hit a certain number by in a certain time frame and what is this what's the algorithm going to tell you might be needed to be able to achieve that right so we can run it both ways and that is that would be a step in a direction that North St Paul hasn't yet yet done and and would be relatively easy to do in addition to the pictures so as a part of our annual rating which we're using technology to do now it's not you know somebody taking notes like there's one two three five cracks on a street you know this is all being camera um and runs into the system kind of uh in a in a computerized fashion um and so it's easy to be able to pull up pictures of the streets that we've been on and we can show like okay so this is Gerald Avenue and this is currently rated to whatever it is 15 it's not good right so but whatever it is you can see that we can have several examples so that you can see real world condition real streets um in this current year and that might help that discussion to moving forward we've been riding agree yeah been riding our ebikes my wife and I have been trying to hit all the streets in North St Paul just to kind of get an idea so we've been going up and down then we went through Maplewood you know up by uh the freeway and back down and around just to see the difference and there's been quite a difference sure so we need to work thank you y yep we got them already thank you welcome thank you thanks for having me here today um do you want me to try to pull something up on a screen or we just go with the hand out I think the screen would be helpful if you have it yeah I can I can oh yeah look at the rating I pull this guy out just plug in mine probably I assume so I don't know see what happens here okay so appreciate you having me here today um I think it would be helpful just to give a little bit of a lead in into our process um first off uh basically when we're asked to do a facility assessment that means that we have a team of Architects and Engineers go to every building and we really have kind of a snapshot in time of what we see in those buildings um a lot of times we get good information from um facilities folks that actually you know repair items because when we go out to a building we can't see what's been fixed seven times uh we can just see you know with our own eyes what's sort of deteriorating um so today we're sort of midpoint point in that process um I think there was good reason for us to try to get out here and just kind of show you where we're at with things um not the least of which is just trying to prepare for um you know budget things coming up and looking at what investments un might need to make in some of these buildings um moving forward our kind of next step is you know this is still sort of a draft form so um there's a number of items that I shouldn't suggest there's too many but there's some items on here that we still expect to have add um to this report you know a small percentage of electrical items and symp Technology items that just haven't made it on here yet um and then also uh we would sit down with staff and kind of go through this list and look at um priorities and say you know what's most important to get done and if you look at um this list here this is sort of how we generally categorize those priorities um so Priority One is something that would have to be done you know as 0 to 2 years and that's maybe a life safety issue or something that um is deteriorating to the point where it no longer functions um priority you know two is something that we would suggest be done in the next two to five years um so that's something that you know might give you a really good payback within that time frame like LED lighting or something to that effect um or it might be just other items that we expect to deteriorate within that time frame and then beyond there um the priority threes and fours get sort of nebulous because you're just saying that's something that's going to happen um after these other items that are higher priorities and so um the way that we categorize this isn't necessarily how every building and every client has to categorize um these priorities it could be done a completely different way um this is just usually our starting point um but getting some consensus from um the city and how we prioritize those items will drive where those budgets or those cost land you know year to year because it'll just line up with those priorities um I guess the The Next Step Beyond that uh is to really also look at each item in detail and make sure that there's nothing missing um like I said before when we go out to every building we kind of get that snapshot and we have discussions along the way with staff and understand how the building is functioning um but there's often times that things get missed um there's also times that we have a number in there and certain amount of square footage and you know Ron or Randy might say that's crazy there's no way there's that much or I think you missed this area over here and so there's sort of this refinement um process along the way um the other thing that that suggests is that this is really sort of a living document um so we actually have set this up into um like a database that has pivot tables that can be adjusted over time um so right now any costs that I might present are really just today's costs um so they don't account for inflation and as we sort of get consensus on those priorities we can assign what year that would happen and we can adjust what we expect that inflation to be you know right now we're looking at 4 to 6% per year for construction inflation that's just sort of the average that we've finally settled down into um in our industry but um those things can all be adjusted and that database can actually be you know handled by the city and Dan can go in and play with numbers and do what he likes to do if we need to um adjust those things along the way so again um right now is just that snapshot to just give you sort of an overview of what we saw and we kind of you know put this together last week to try to give you as much information as we could um but I do want to reiterate that this is just a draft format and so if there's something that in there that you go that doesn't make any sense well thanks we'll make sure we get on top of that and kind of adjust it along the way but I think moreover you'll see that this is a pretty good idea of where U we understand the building conditions are at and so what I think I'll do um here is I'll just run through this is you know um there's hundreds of items in here um so I don't necessarily have to go through each one but I think it might be useful for me to just highlight a few things that you know maybe have a higher dollar value or where we see some themes amongst some different buildings um so as I scroll through here um I'll just start at some of the um larger buildings so Public Works in in City Hall first can I ask a quick question before we get to ABS the weeds ju I'm concerned by the top right corner this is our city right oh yeah yeah mine the rest of mine say North St Paul so I don't know why it says that again it's a database that we use and so it's common amongst our clients that we have just want to make sure we're looking at the right data there's nothing on here other than that little spot where it would have anything to do with the city of Aurora so thanks for pointing that out that's a mistake that needs to be corrected um so if I if I just run through um you know public works here first and then I think you know I'll I'll talk about those individual numbers um and and costs that we're seeing here uh but then I'll kind of at the end stop for questions and go back but then kind of maybe just summarize where we see some of those dollar figur at um by building and we can also categorize those a lot of different ways whether it be by priority by System types so look at okay all of the electrical systems throughout the city how much is that going to be or all of the you know roofs throughout the city how much would that be so we can kind of categorize and sort those things all in different ways depending on how um the city or how you want to look at it from a budget standpoint um so just jumping into U Public Works um again I think that there's um we typically start with exterior we're looking at some overhead doors and um some masonry pre-cast that we would likely want to put in place um so you're looking at um kind of these bigger items right here that we're pointing out um and then I think some other just minor things like acid wash the masonry and just sort of clean up the exterior um so those sort of aesthetic things as you can see have typically a little bit lower priority three um you know we're suggesting some other ones like a water leak that would be a priority One um but it's also a smaller dollar item so some of these items in here that we identify are also ones that you know the city may not necessarily be paying out of pocket to repair it might be something the city staff actually do uh but we are just taking a very sort of objective approach to it and saying this is what we saw this is what we think it would cost to fix that um but often times some of those smaller items get get handled um by City staff um so then kind of continuing to go through on the interior um just some painting um as that starts to age over time um hydraulic lift that's sort of seen the end of its life and then um Windows is pretty typical that we find um you know looking at 15 to 20 years you want to start planning for replacement of those windows um some of them have drafts so I think you know this doesn't constitute full window replacement of the entire building um those are just the ones that we identified probably needed some TLC uh so then continuing through uh mechanically um you know this is typically where we see some larger numbers where you're looking at replacing all of the air handlers um and V boxes and again what what this um tool helps you do is sort of plan for the future um it because it's a priority 3 that doesn't necessarily indicate that there's something holistically wrong with it um we just go by sort of um ashray standards and and building standards in terms of what life cycle costs are for some of these items so an air handler you know like that is typically going to be you know 25 to 35 years and so when you start hitting that 20 to 25 year mark we say okay you should start planning for replacement of that um certainly you've had buildings or um we've seen buildings where Air Handlers have lasted you know 50 to 60 years um but it takes a lot of work to continue to get those to run and parts become scarce um so those are just sort of some things to note as we look at priorities with the city and talk through each of these individual items you know why something might be a big number but it might get push out a little bit further too um so then uh we also identified just some um asphalt um replacement at the parking lot um so again most of this stuff is just using um sort of cost per square foot or cost per square yard or lineal foot we're using those unit prices to apply that to these individual items um sometimes on the smaller items it doesn't always apply very well and so often times if you're looking at like one individual item and you tried to go hire a contractor for that you know just to get somebody to show up on a job site is you know a few hundred bucks and so um those unit prices um for the most part are pretty good indicator of what the cost is going to be um but when start to work with the city on what the plan would be to potentially Implement some of these projects um we might help sort of adjust um some of those pricing because if you kind of lump it together um it sort of works pretty well um but when you split one of those smaller items off and just say you know let's do three Windows over at public works well that might not necessarily be the exact cost that we have here because um it sort of gets lumped together with some of the other items so this isn't a huge swing um but you'll see that effect a lot more on some of the smaller items um also these these costs are all intended to be project costs um so they they include all construction costs and soft costs and soft cost is just you know contingency fees testing all those different things if there's any sort of you know other equipment involved in the the project itself which typically for these deferred maintenance items you know they're pretty straightforward it's just um what you would need to pay a contractor and then have some contingency in place um just to you know account for unforeseen conditions uh but again this is sort of what we would suggest as a full budget for individual items and I don't have to have such a long commentary for every single item that I go through it's just easier to tell me tell you this as I go through and kind of give you some background on each individual item um so jumping to City Hall um certainly there's some just accessibility items that we saw that could be updated um nothing we would say is uh imminent right now which is why that's a priority for um but certainly things have um adapted over time with accessibility code and something that we would suggest you just start thinking about um making some of those improvements um as you look at some of the exterior issues um certainly some hollow metal doors um and frames that are starting to deteriorate uh pretty common in Minnesota you have steel outside and you know way rain wind weather Salt all that kind of starts to eat away at those things um the same is true for those overhead doors um at the garage uh so those kind of need to be um probably replaced at some point in the near future um and then looking at the interior um just some of the larger items you know looking at um some carpet replacement um doing redoing the epoxy floor in the garage which is you know something that is quite expensive but it's definitely one of those systems that tends to last um for a long time but that is a sort of lower priority because I think it's still in decent shape but it's one of those larger budget items that you know we kind of like to try to get that in here so that you're really planning for it because it is more expensive um running to mechanical systems um again we've got you know replacement of those Air Handlers and VAV boxes they're hitting that 20 plus year time frame where um replacement of those would um you know start to plan for those um and then we've got some just smaller like um air conditioning units that um we would say are a little bit more um higher priority and that's you know that the age is approxim is really the same um but they just don't last as long those smaller units and so the replacement tends to be um pushed up a little bit further um any questions or should I just continue to kind of pick and choose some some items here to go through okay again you got the report so you're more than welcome to continue to read it after I leave here and you know shoot questions off to me or Brian or Dan or whatever and we can continue to talk about it I have I have just a couple of questions I think You' you've touched on to it so you you have identified any Ada issues that within any of the facilities for the most part where wherever we could identify them wherever we saw them we've brought those to the Forefront and so those are on the list and again the priority kind of dictates or gives you an indication of what we think is you know something that's you know more or less important in terms of um accessibility issues and and then I noticed usually in a facility there's a bigger price tag um on roofs but I don't see roofs being identified in yeah I mean for the most part I think um those are under warranty and they're in fairly decent shape um but I think you know that's something that we probably need to take another look at but um some of the smaller buildings certainly we have some asphalt shingle roofs and some of those Park shelters that are covered in here and so um what is the normal warranty on a roof then this building is 20 years old is it uh totally dependent on what warranty was purchased at the time the building was built it can range anywhere from 15 to 30 plus years that's sort of a typical time frame so you know if this was a 30-year warranty Roof then it would just be outside our 10year year mark for these items so you verified that so it is I think I'm note that I need to need double check that but likely the city would have those warranty documents on hand so um but again I mean that's another one of those things where if the roof is in really good shape and you don't have leaks you know just because it's out of warranty doesn't mean like the sky is falling it just means hey you know if there's a leak it's no longer recovered under warranty you got to pay out of your pocket to fix that and you need to start to think about replacement because it'll probably continue to happen and get worse potentially over time were you up there as far as that looking at the flashing and stuff that's usually where it goes I haven't been up there personally our architectural staff were up there they were up there I think so but like I said I'll double check that and verify and these are all the buildings for North St Paul every building except for the community center correct is there a reason why the community center isn't on here here cuz we already went through that analysis previously but even though it's still analysis shouldn't we have all the facilities on here we can easily just incorporate that into this report it's not hard to just copy it over and put it in here yeah I think that would be a good idea so we all have it yeah no I that's a good idea I mean sort council member just to kind this is really a rough draft no I understand that yeah it isn't the final report and yes in the final report would include the community center it's just that that one already had a complete assessment it wasn't rolled into this at this point in time I understand but as we're discussing facility assessments it should be in here oh absolutely but this was just a draft of the next contract that we have given out in that in community center was not included in this next piece of the contract so he's just getting all the formatting and everything and obviously there's still some things that he needs to go back and verify and check just like the question with the the roofs and so forth uh before he can give a final report that final report will include the community center thank you Dan okay good question thank you um so continuing on um just looking at like the the trash building for example um you know that pre pre-cast um wall cap um probably likely due for replacement at some point in the future um you're running through um I don't know how much of this I need to stop and go through but I'll just I kind of highlighted some items on here and I'll just I'll note them and I don't know if I'm going to be able to follow along on the sheet and look at this at the same time that quickly but um so there's some just smaller water heaters at some of the park shelters that will likely need replacement um there's sort of a theme of um some of the roofs needing to be done certainly um I think the majority of those are just asphalt jingle roofs there are some metal roofs out there too um but I think most of those were in decent shape um there's definitely some of the enclosed buildings that have some U windows and doors and things like that that need replacement um you know that Northwood park building I think is one of the ones that kind of had a um some of the higher costs um of those different Park buildings and so in general I think you look at um some of these Park buildings and you know we're ranging from from um anywhere from you know 100,000 up to you know maybe 200,000 in in Project cost but those break down into a lot of those little different um items um you know looking at some Plumbing fixture repair by and large most of the buildings don't have a lot for mechanical systems it might just be an exhaust fan or a little auxilary heater here or there so um those pop in here now and again for replacement but it doesn't amount to a whole lot of um cost for the most part um there are a couple of spots um just because I have it highlighted here where um there's some upper level spaces at the concession stand and the Press Box um where you may want to consider a lift um for accessibility um but that also has to go through kind of the city building official and and look at the building code and decide what's required uh because we've seen cities interpret that differently um we kind of just put it in here um but it has been something that's been identified in the past and if you were to go out and build a brand new Press Box with an upper level that had a certain number of occupants um you would need to have a lift or an elevator um so I think that's one of those items that we kind of go back and look at and say you know is this like actually required by the city is it sort of a nice to have and so right now we push that out of a priority 4 because I don't believe that it's going to be required but it's one of those things that you just maybe think about um considering making those spaces accessible um so kind of jumping to um maybe looking at like that um actual concession building um the mcnight concession building I think that's one where you know we looked at the just um kitchen area and some of the other finishes there and I think that they're kind of past their useful life and so um just some updating and and you know reworking of that space I think would be valuable and so I think it kind of is pieace meal together as you look at you know countertops or Plumbing fixtures and things like that um but again this is a case where you probably you know you could do kind of you know onesie TWY stuff or you could look at it and say we should just renovate that concession building and so then you kind of add up all those different items and look at a more large scale project um continue went on um you know looking I'll just dump jump to some of these well buildings um I think for the most part um you know they kind of range in age a little bit um but I think really um we saw some exterior things that were aging um some electrical items including Plumbing or lighting fixtures that could be updated and then mechanically we identified that um some of the well pumps themselves um you could get some energy benefit out of adding a vfd to those well pumps and so that's one of those things where you could start to run some payback and see what that would cost you know if it's a you know $5,000 vfd but you're going to save you know 1,500 a year on utilities okay you know what does that payback look like and so is it valuable to approach that project from that standpoint um you know just again some of those um exterior hollow metal doors and frames that are starting to deteriorate at those well buildings I think that's a pretty common one and then the asphalt shingled roofs um again I think as you look through here you'll see a lot of common items because they're the things that typically deteriorate you know with any age building um so I think that's kind of you know a broad overview of the buildings and kind of what we've seen um you know once we get through this sort of vetting process with the city um we're certainly more than happy to come back and put a more comprehensive presentation together with you know some pictures and things like that where we can actually see um some of these items because I think that that's helpful um often times in these reports we'll include those photos um we're just at the point now where we said let's just get the numbers and some of the items out here and just sort of spread it out and see where we're at right now so that was kind of the intent of um today's discussion um going I think forward a a little bit um I'll just kind of summarize where those costs are at for each of the buildings um and again the the numbers um would make sense if you're going to do every single project this year which we you know assume is not necessarily realistic uh but it gives you just a kind of idea of what that overall cost is right now um so at Public Works we're looking at a project cost total of all of those categories you know just about 1.7 million um City Hall fire and police looking at about 1.8 um and then you go to some of these smaller buildings um that you know three grand six grand um 14 for the event building uh 15 for the housy park building um and then again Northwood Park is a little higher at 127 um that concession stand building um just shy 300 uh the Press Box uh 1999 and again some of that is just a more expensive elevator lift and so that number you know you'd kind of push that off to the side now that number looks a lot smaller excuse me um and then looking at some of those well bendings I would I think what I looked at is you know it really ranges anywhere from 30 to $55,000 per building and so again it's just some of those common themes with um the roofs the doors um any sort of Windows that exist and maybe some minor mechanical and electrical items that would have to be taken care of so um you know overall if you just add it all up we're at about um 4.7 million for that total um amount again you start to spread that out over time look at that inflation decide kind of what your priorities are and you can kind of start to build potentially um some planned improvements to those different facilities um so with that I don't know if there's any other questions or kind of thoughts about um process moving forward but that's um just the overview I wanted to give today looking forward to the full report certainly happy to happy to share it when it's ready so U mayor and uh council members just kind of for reference um in our uh process last year we dedicated point 4 5% of a levy increase to facilities um in that Capital Improvement plan that was approved of last year that from 2024 to 2033 just for your reference um and again you know if you look at these priorities you know um without going into a lot of detail they're all to be done in about 10 years that's what our Capital Improvement plan is so in the public works facility in our Capital Improvement plan we had about $400,000 you can see this is coming in at about 1.7 at this point in time so we're short 1.3 million in in that facility uh the city hall um in our CIP we had about uh 950,000 right now it's looking at about 1.8 million so we're we're already shy about $2.1 million so once this report is totally done we'll incorporate into our CIP I'll throw together a 10-year financial plan obviously it would require a a a significant increase in our in our Levy moving forward so just to maintain the facilities um the water facilities that we've seen here seem to be pretty close to what we have and again I haven't had a lot of time to see this report this report came just at uh after about 4:30 so I haven't had enough time to analyze everything with it but uh um and that'll be coming forth but just to let you know that you know like I've been saying um we we're underfunded in in our facilities um and so just to make that aware I think the only other item I'll note too is that um you know maybe particularly for public works and uh City Hall it doesn't suggest that there's any cost for um sort of adequacy or programmatic items either um so you know if there's big changes in departments or you know a big swing in staff num or you know you added some sort of program um or you know if police had some you know issue with the BCA and they had to renovate something for that you know this doesn't cover any sort of that adequacy or space needs assessment piece this is literally just that deferred maintenance portion so um just want to make sure that there's an awareness that there's sort of potentially another layer that the city you know has that we we don't we're not aware of it but I just want to mention that so that you know it's not covering that part of it okay Jonathan thank youate good to see youall again thank you any other business if not call for adjournment at 625 so move so move council member Wong second council member Cole all those in favor say I hi hi