This transcript features Mayor Luke Hellier, the Lakeville City Council, and city staff discussing the housing needs assessment, industrial park expansion, and new cannabis ordinances. [0:00] Mayor Luke Hellier: Foreign Works session to order if you'll join me in a modern science and Pledge of Allegiance. [0:23] Mayor Luke Hellier: Pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and considering public for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all all right item number three citizens comments if there's anybody here that has comments uh from the city council you have three minutes just so you know if they are comments related to items on the agenda will probably open up many of these items to public on it so not not a public hearing but we don't see anybody raise their hands we'll move on so we'll go right into our comprehensive housing needs assessment and Mr Mullins I believe here oh I'm [1:09] Justin Miller: Sorry yep real quick sorry to go upstairs um I'd like to introduce everybody to Julie Stahl Julie is our finance director today is day one and so she's going to come and give the CIP presentation go over the second quarter financially thank you Julie comes to us from the city of Savage and we're really excited to ever join our team. [1:40] Mayor Luke Hellier: Welcome welcome sorry I was gonna I thought you meant your University I didn't want to hold off um but we better stop stealing from our neighbor's suburbs during the circus okay um now we'll turn over Mr Mullins. [1:55] Scott Mullins: All right we'll give you everyone next having your tonight recognize the lab we're faces from previous presentations so we'll kind of keep moving the nights and uh give a big agenda looks like so hola High Point uh Ruby picture again uh the offer all right we'll get this movement real quickly again uh clear this workless city of Lakeville back and uh all kicked off in December of last year most of the data is collected in first quarter issue a draft report like springtime we did a couple of presentations to Eda out here to the console so uh kind of reviews and wrapping up right now so high points and next up here so all right big picture uh one touch on kind of the double doctor trends that we've seen the past couple years so we've really seen our numbers surpassing that console so um you know met console originally approve academic 64-3 through pop right 20. and it has rapid growth the past couple years right the pandemic called it related so our numbers are surpassing some of that console projections by 30 and 248 uh it's due to all the the curve past uh over the past three years still really robust. [3:20] Scott Mullins: Look at the growth again the Boomers here and what else what else now are the oils Millennial knowledge is 43 so those Millennials are home buyers is that crazy it's 43 buenosine the young ones right um but they're they're aging right and they're buying homes and I do a lifestyle renters so live growth there and every little touch on that next um all two slides down but the house of composition again just driven by uh families related with kids so I mean a school district just probably has so many households to Lakeville you know living alone is growing but still pretty small that's like the single person's you know some communities who work on say entertaining verbs you know I'll say they diagnos it was part Golden Valley you see this is living a ball in it 35-40 percent in those areas where uh Scott is there a broken down by eight million on North Tiberia I just think we've added a lot of senior apartments so maybe there's piano's or you know senior apartments most likely follow me along because the senior apartments I typically one person households you know 90 of them you have a few couples here and there but um but yeah for the most part of the Fall there now with Austin Russell stock being built today got the pipeline the next few years but still looking at roughly small percentage. [4:55] Scott Mullins: Black and strong also then comes here we're at the very end here here I mean overall we're like 120-ish 122 somewhere in that ballpark as a you know for the city and the ymail's got a very very strong household incomes and the genetics as well uh you know rule of thumb three three and a half times your income relatively we can afford now it's changing right now the analysis um mortgage Market the rates going up that percentage is starting to go down right now incomes um you know the the elf in the room when the pass has been wages in Lakeville being lower than Dakota County Metro Area averages quite substantially you know looking at weekly wages versus conventional proofing spread better a lot of it comes down to the type of jobs at Lakeville I mean uh you know how the executive corporate job to say eager may have a lot more you know Leisure Hospitality some of those lower paying retail jobs which really is driving down the wages here at Lake and all so really you know it's a pretty pretty big spread between the metro area average and wages in April I highlights um Computer Trends so fascinating if you looked at Lakeville comparedge along your other you know sell a similar Suburban communities across the Metro for the most part majority of of suburbs there's not a lot of people that live and work in the same city people are commuting everywhere right so I mean it's pretty consistent across the board of every city who's living and working in their Community however we look at inflow outflow patterns here's where the differences not two people are coming into Lake Hill everyone's leaving right for employment whereas you have a very high outflow what other gods compared to some of the other communities across and the natural to have a huge influx workers coming in like a vegan dinner equipment again both in corporate campuses have those higher paying jobs driving almost numbers as a proportion of the overall employment so a pretty big spread there. [7:58] Scott Mullins: Thank you for your help here um so one thing we did is okay so we have all these we know we have a huge outflow of jobs um house metro area you know our wages are lower here in Lakeville so it's someone who has a Lakeville wage afford to live and work in Lakeville okay so here's what we did now so we have two columns blue lights so let's do one income here let's see two persons that same income bracket or same job the chances of having two dual incomes and exact same job probably pretty low because usually you have two separate um disappointment but can they afford to live and work yeah in Maple so here we all here's a red line so you see like a couple Industries right and one ain't um a couple Industries you know for a little work but once you have the Dual income you know most can afford rent in Lakeville when it comes to homeownership that change is quite a bit um I give it high rates higher health and costs or two industries wait for the second can afford to Little League though so it's kind of interesting but again tough to compare apples apples when he got dual incomes and you don't want to offer the person has to run for the job so it's an analogy based on some of the same sector. [9:29] Scott Mullins: Kind of interesting there um as comparison to Russell Metro area again other major cities to see you know Lakeville housing the months the highest housing costs right this is my 22 numbers and the change thus far into 23 a little bit but you know not a whole lot of cities have wages against one income that can afford to live and work in their community so again mostly suburbs are relying on Dual income households to be able to form to them uh from their communities uh later Force has looks pretty good I mean I say most communities I work in today the labor source number is lower that was pre-pandemic so Lakeville actually has more people labor force today than prep that's a very good thing a lot of people are going like this a lot of communities like that because their participation rate is down yet as well their position right you can still see them over at today I mean it's still pretty much you know hovering over 68.5 were uh historically we're in Idaho 70 plus so it's still that low lower participation rate but the good news is your labor force is up that's positive to certain most communities today that I work in it's it's the opposite Facebook post pandemic and then drop down. [11:02] Mayor Luke Hellier: Well yeah so I think uh everyone went back to work off and then outside and we got another two three rounds of you know everything that happened and pandemic and other variants and then people thought the workforce again see I was crazy talking but I just dropped One Stop twice we're still come back and ideally you want to see that number back you know 70 loss to get another jobs out there today a low apart from employers. [11:48] Scott Mullins: Good uh we want to do that four to five percent range for healthy um balanced Market labor force um jumping over to Blue improvements Trends you know we've seen this huge jump you know 21 troyans a single family again pandemic but a lot of that and then interest rates kicked in 22 minutes so um really coordinated pretty handily with the uh interesting heights were down quite a bit compared to the last couple years uh criteria was a top year the customers is what they've also look at um I compared to Russell Metro area along the way um you know they're handling their Construction but we're seeing activity this year is really a fall back from new construction you know even though demand is real strong yeah but we have high rates uh criminal activity is really dominant quite a bit that's both a single family of all time all that now is really down right now it's not in the ground already. [13:16] Scott Mullins: Stronger on the market you know super low vacancy rates now that vacancy rates will only be over stated 7.7 that's what the news projects that were just delivered releasing high efficiency rate kick those out 28.3 uh so you know super low vacancy rates um across the board doesn't matter if it's not great affordable um so I'll end up demand for more rental housing look to who is brought to these today it's through the lifestyle Rogers we're driving it all your construction tends to be Class A it has to be plus and construction that caters to you know again the barbell affect the Millennials and bloomers and higher incomes and higher incomes are really driving throughout the book across the country today it's it's you know 75 100 000 plus incomes a lot of times that are that are renting um a lot of compartments super high incomes which traditionally if that would have been the case for Russell housing it's been more of a necessity than for me not a lifestyle choice. [14:30] Scott Mullins: Some trans you've been seeing you know recently um you know apartments and Industrial the two hottest real estate types in uh but we've seen things kind of tap out now for a lot of reasons but what if we're under you know a all-time high now from new apartment delivers across country this year um it's like one million apartments in the whole us today under construction so so we're seeing some softening and he's coming on the road here but it's a big challenge today is what we're seeing is a lot of departments that improved today maybe not a group forward I thought increment may have been pulled um they may have preliminary approvals or final approvement city today is rates and lender underwriting criteria on a lot of products now up for the brakes on something we're going to wait things out of Year too see how the lending environment shakes out and then we'll move forward um you know down the road at the same time we have this right here the lack of first cell Supply let's purchase on the market at higher higher rates our drive or nothing so now let's be craziest to happen in the next couple years and not as much as we deliver in 2024 so to look at the Twin Cities right now with huge boom of 23 24 came down quite a bit about 25 it's like a pretty bleak for for new construction so what's going to happen probably 2025 is if new projects don't move forward routes are going to go up you know vacancy race tighter rental market two years from now because the pipeline is not being and that's right now to these high rates so it's kind of interesting times there's the uh navigate the interest rate by what we're in today. [16:29] Scott Mullins: Lakeville does not have whole lot of stock today okay I love the pipeline what I'll be rental stock lava is single families single family and Rental towns make up a good a good chunk of your rental stock in across the community now look at Twin Cities and Statewide you know single failure makes up a good chunk of rentals across the state you know a third of all rentals in the state of Minnesota or at least I'll State Minnesota are are you know a DTaP structure so to talk about that costs and concept today is what we call single value built for rent or build a rats there's a lot of accidents out there it's a you know got two two options option here is scatter site developers who go up and buy Singapore homes and then rent them but it's talking about to do because you can't get your kind of the scale going you got a property here property five miles here so it's like individual small investors the new Hot Topic today is more of its communities like a brand new submission that comes in it says okay we're going to build 50 homes detached structures they could be attached small lot of subdivisions but like 35 a lot so this is the hottest you know Nationwide today we don't have a whole lot of Twin Cities we have about 10 projects today the pipeline across the whole metro area and they get a call about a month ago from developer looking at Lakeville mushroom field um it is like those perfect Community for this product type. [18:38] Councilmember Dan Wolter: Let's go ahead do you have any idea what the single family rentals how much of that is corporate owned? [18:44] Scott Mullins: Well right now it's still you look at across the country right now it's still a small small fraction however the newest newest ply type is going to be backed by usually a builder or a corporate entity so for instance lenovirus for example Lennar may say you know we have this new subdivision and child we want to convert to Russell and they may decide has a whole sector of the company that does rentals they could come and say we're going to run the housing here and still offer Melodies they might offer like have a party room community room you know how that's workout room how does amenities yet converted to a rock ball but yeah so tip is a small mob operator I'm not going to go on this concept they can't they don't have equity and uh dealership Finance you know a 50-year project it's going to be larger institutional players. [20:07] Councilmember Dan Wolter: What about corporations that don't do a development like that but they just buy up a bunch of housing? [20:12] Scott Mullins: You do have some of those out there it's still pretty small component I think the numbers right now are they're 88 of like all single Time Rentals in the US are small smallpa corporate a corporate is getting market share for here but still roughly small piece of pie but this concept is going to be corporate or more builder focused to make it work. [20:39] Councilmember Dan Wolter: So I suspect you're going to see some whole step concept and later on because it's high concept you're demographically you know it's facing perfectly um it feels uh when you said um what's their end game though are they going to stay in that business or is there a law actually so bosses to hold now I work with some Builders right now a little different concept all let's say for example a subdivision that they've got three houses left they can't sell them because the high interest rates in some cases these Builders are saying I'm going to hold this for two years at the market shake out put it back to the or sales side once the market crisis. [21:40] Councilmember Michelle Volk: The only reason I ask is because I'm trying to figure out if um Police Services Etc would be higher in that type of scenario where the whole area is all rental versus um you know just holding onto two three houses um so you know versus an apartment building Etc so the what is the clientele in there so if they were to come with this concept I'm going to be looking at how does this affect our services that we provide and is it going to be overbearing on what we have. [22:20] Scott Mullins: Yep so come out of that and slide right here it has to be more fluid runners a lot more pounds of kids uh one or two kids a lot of times and a pet usually comes with it as well um you do have download sizing baby boomers as well that kind of flock to this product type but they may want one level living costs of The Patio Home Cottage but uh the biggest thing is side longer term leases so like your typical partner product today the term rates every you know six months I mean 50 per year is terrible right they're going to say light pieces of two years plus a lot of times but longer a lot of them are representative for a down payment you may have a lot of student debt they're want to buy the community but they're looking to run first so it's definitely a different demographic for that is running that made your traditional vertical construction yeah. [23:20] Councilmember Michelle Volk: And these would come in just as a single family plan it doesn't matter that they're rental or home ownership I mean if they come in as a single family development we approve it or look at it from an ordinance standpoint was there all going to pay property taxes? [23:33] Scott Mullins: It's a land use it's a single family house or maybe a duplex. [23:38] Councilmember Michelle Volk: No I I realize that but you still have to but you can't deny it that's I don't even know why we're here half the time because there's a lot of things we can't tonight so. [23:48] Councilmember Joshua Lee: Have you seen a lot of the the rental increase because the tax law changes in the standard deduction and like it's not that you know the mortgage reduction is not really tax advantage yeah is that have you seen no does that correlate or is it? [24:04] Scott Mullins: Yeah yeah it wasn't time when that made a difference but really that it's kind of the game uh you know I think there's a lot of reasons for the Russell to Madison High today but you know a lot of lifestyle choices you know a lot of student debt you know the biggest obstacles for the Poor Sale Market is payment as a lot of people don't have that Equity built up or they do have as kind of mom dad a lot of times so yeah. [24:39] Scott Mullins: Someone senior housing real quick uh you know I was going to I'm still blown away by this number of student housing uh three and a half percent vacancy rate across the city super low considering the pandemic both cities are way higher than that today I was improving still know where it was pre-pandemic that'd be a pretty low vacancy rates if you've senior housing uh you know what slow combat in that sector today to prepare for sale trends again you're keep peaking here all the 500 plus now I want to touch on this this is a great this is chaos two days ago by National Association Realtors this shows the uh number of new homes today at percent of all sales so the reason why we have such high price points today in Lakeville is it faces new construction and most of your product is infrastructure across the country today 35 of all homes on the market today are new construction historically that's 10 15 you know if you look at the past 30 years the 12 is your average new construction and here we have this massive mass of construction shares because there's nothing to market today and and Builders will end up producing a supply of homeless so it's very fascinating times which is a good drive at the cost overall uh lots of supply uh like anger okay you know we can drink a lot so that you're making lots of high you bake a lot so it's definitely going to meet the demand and you get a lot on the pipeline platted so I think you're going to be five it's not if you have shortage or Lots lessons I work at have sort of lots they do declines but again construction premium a premium is a 35 cost associated with it over to the resale Market but to make Pride move today great lot great great buy Downs are pretty typical I the builders all nationals stimulate sales they want to keep the trades they want to keep keep building but rather to a great lot and buy it all and then top that price they don't want to drop the price for appraisal issues they're workers they're offering symptoms before they'll drop that price so we're seeing right now I'll support sales sector in the new construction side. [27:10] Councilmember John Bermel: Um do they finance that um as an entity or they're working? [27:15] Scott Mullins: Well a lot of times they you know like pick a Minar but they all have their own in-house mortgage companies and title companies so they're skimming it through that through there yeah [Laughter] so it's on the rate hikes a lot it is tomorrow or when I don't think Wednesday we'll see I I've heard cases for both uh last week everyone was saying no right height so yesterday I'm hearing 0.25 we'll see what happens um well we held off in June um we'll see how the FED responds. [28:00] Mayor Luke Hellier: I remember when it got down to this and I was extremely thrilled so you know we're just living in you know people just don't realize how good they had exactly that was crazy how I mean it was sit at zero for how long I mean. [28:22] Scott Mullins: Um so again that that mortgage rate is a huge difference and we're down we're down about 6.8 today however it's last week we're in the seven percent range uh it makes a difference right like we're at a year ago today between um last year last early last year versus today Great Heights I've made it a big death on affordability and that's results in a bigger payment or less house um again but at the rate Heights you know a lot of us are sitting over there right so three percent and that's going to hold the market back to quite some time give them a little rates give us a month um everyone talks about why is my entry level being built ironically um you are starting to see more actually the homes being built today um as pillars are trying to do everything they can do to help bring down costs they're skimming a lot right now if I said that word again they're just do a Bare Bones construction now some subdivisions to help bring that cost down how to get more affordable not still I'd say not a true entry level home to do whatever they can how alleviate those costs I'll say this you know there's no one way to help with housing costs out it takes the whole toolkit and everything kitchen sink can make it happen help get those new construction costs be affordable because um God I'm not so high over the past you know decade that um the dimensional construction size it's a small fraction so it really takes. [30:18] Councilmember John Bermel: Somebody gonna call us help bring the cops for the scenario where okay so somebody's gonna develop starter housing you know gold you know regular grade and everything what effect does the market have on that so you build a house and you can Market it for 280 000 but it is still going to end up after people paid for it because. [30:43] Scott Mullins: Well yeah no question in the market after saying 299 you know the base model right but you know what's going to be 3.99 my time has done that upgrades so I mean it happens every time that's actually from side it's gonna add to my percent on that's how I feel what I see uh Builders model sign I mean even if you didn't do the upgrades is it just the market going to be such that there's going to be such a demand for it that people are going to go oh well I'll give you a 324. [31:25] Scott Mullins: Yeah I mean that's a good question yeah so if these are marketing house let's say the demand's gonna be so high you're right they can just the justice prices based on Justin Time pricing models and then push it up but yeah I mean there is insatiable demand for Hall of price under 400 000. I mean you could build so it's a good question you know let's build a whole straw or they keep your throates you probably know what they're going to do. [31:50] Scott Mullins: Um so real quick depending a lot of pipe calls in the pipeline uh the biggest thing is his apartment so we dirt demand we'll talk about that in a second here uh we counted for this 700 units of pipeline demand um so last single family about the holiday command but the market rates here housing takes into account the summit hotter new units of pipeline we have right now it sounds like someone's maybe on hold so really this is 600 plus 700 it's kind of subtracted those out I'm thinking we're going to go forward so really demand it's high out of that but you know the question is when do they move forward I were assuming if they got approvals that probably will but if they don't move forward this demand was up for that market rate. [32:58] Councilmember Joshua Lee: Um do we know how you know we get a good common town almost but you know people outside of legal bright homes smaller single family do you know does that fit in is the multi-family only like? [33:14] Scott Mullins: Yeah so multi-family could be yeah this could mean a lot of things twin home uh Town Hall no home Penny High one categorizes a detached Villa so yeah yeah so you can kind of put a detached bill off either or I tend to put them more multi you're going to MLS for example Realtors always put it under single family which is marketing Hall but tradition but if it has Association has an association but yeah the Builder may put it as a wow. [33:55] Scott Mullins: But I mean a lot of senior homes in the band charts uh I gotta tackle a single family Nevada Center all day um build again if you're back your comment there um both Indian association maintained we are seeing more and more Town Halls come back into play now again it's high costs so towels became a four-letter word back in like five when they all went belly up and then we lost his shirts on them and build them forever the town homes traditionally are your entry-level price points for new construction um we are sort of slowly come back you know that style home oh there's a lot more affordable compared to a traditional detached structure so I think we're gonna see a lot more Town Homes come forward over a year or two as bill was trying to get a More Action level price point I got a rental holidays in this van could be higher than that if those projects don't go forward. [35:05] Scott Mullins: Um we've talked a lot about people like that will be a Project's style that will come before the console in the next year or so brought the Tahoes to hot concept that a lot of cities are seen right now across the Metro it's about a lot of town has come forward again I tend to have it'll be a real home style nice looking real home style senior housing chart for the van um you know short terms all going to be more active living not hot or service based and that's a good thing too because the Staffing is so tough right now at these um staff and senior housing so more and more student developers moving to active living just because they can't find the bodies to maintain staff durations. [36:06] Scott Mullins: Key takeaways uh strong growth not as fast as I say the last couple decades but it's still a very very strong strong rates um why doesn't Bloomers drive in that growth a lot of families again the the wild card here is how we get to the small wages there's less than two cities you know low vacancy rates demand [Music] senior housing rates are low as well we are seeing the Poor Sale Market slowing but not that much just look at your days on Market this morning your days and Market has like doubled but still it's like 40 days so it's like still half what it should be I mean rural thought it was going to be 90 days it's kind of a golf tour right and now we're at 40 that's high or we're used to these days 10 days of Market which is crazy to think about us without but your prices hold strong still going up through nowhere multiply that's higher so uh but sale of a decorative way down this year to the supply side. [37:50] Scott Mullins: Um and I guess the inflation mortgage rates this is all impacting Development and Construction costs are not coming down I mean let's have a conversation yesterday of two different Developers as I can pull spot I'm like okay I see relief nope no really even though you're sure that the subs are available now I mean I figure more and more subcontractors meeting work or looking for work the pricing has not come down yet so you'd think if things get softer out there that we'll see some relief there but so far it would not seem to be done construction costs all right. [38:28] Scott Mullins: Um you know Outlook we'll see tomorrow what happens with the FED how they respond um with the rates we are seeing you know I say the past week or two I feel like I've been more positive economic news past few weeks and um some economists who were in the pool of recession or knowledge soft Landings we've seen some a little bit of movement I think in the past two weeks or more and more okay well maybe we want you know get the hiccup of the thoughts so um you know if you'll feel that's still um inflation is still it's coming down a lot to be we still all through the pocketbooks um I have pick and speak is uh UPS what happens there you know if if that if they um that could be a major major supply chain issue if that vehicle on strike and that could really cause hiccups across the whole supply chain wow so we'll see what happens there um but you know I think it's let's see what happens tomorrow I think that's could indicate you know whatever it might be headed. [39:33] Scott Mullins: Uh um for sale side you know I think Kia's um starts falling down But the irony is Builders confidence has been going up because Supply is so low even though interest rates are up still demand for reconstruction and the past like three or four months Builders keep getting more and more confident about the market so that's kind of interesting that this Dynamic that's going on um so but this year is definitely going to be a a down in here hours portability inventory Etc uh rental market again I think things are really kind of pull back um we're really seeing lenders while a lot of equity right now a lot more equity and rates are up it's a lot of projects to be printed back burner right now so I think you know 24 is going to be really low 25 is where things have to come back and you know where rates end up but right now thought is going to be running back there all over the Metro so um I expect to see that it's great to stay on that seniors interesting one you know senior housing has been coming back but um they face a lot of the same challenges of the General market does and that it was challenging so the projects are going to move forward and be active you think that's not labor shortage is really a huge part but seeing how pretty pretty small segment on the market recently just um is this down where it used to be historically the past decade um quite a bit so pushing a lot of older it's been over my time sorry oh you're okay um questions comments feedback. [41:59] Councilmember Dan Wolter: Yeah I'll put it up I mean the thing that popped out to me was what role that we play in that gap between being able to live and work and let you go and you call us at standpoint where does that even what kind of recommendations are there for policies that will help assist that problem? [42:19] Scott Mullins: You know there are a lot of cities that offer like live where you work in South Hills right the end of the jobs first of all this right so they have a decision to have that have those policies in play if they want you to live and say can you work but two they have higher wage jobs if you have those jobs it's tough to you know offer that type of program um yeah Economic Development right and retention recruitments and what jobs you entered bring your community you know I could go out to that corporate uh compete against you know play that game off competing against Egan and Plymouth and Maple Grove and try to land that big fish and bring those high-paying jobs who's gonna offer a giveaway in the kitchen sink sometimes to try to land it's a big big players yeah it's um I can act out of the development that's what it is. [43:40] Councilmember Dan Wolter: So and then you've obviously worked a lot of different communities or any that you work in um have programs for like first-time homebuyers whether it's like either down payment assistance or like renovation assistances yeah so is it working? [43:55] Scott Mullins: Yeah so a lot of okay so I'll just kind of back up there a second so a lot of cities may have HRA Lobby or Eda or HL letter which is controversial um it's a certain percent of sales tax rifles not pot not pool money then please use the funnels for this program so I think the bigger program would be home improvement program say I needed a roof I need new windows I'm gonna offer you a one or two percent loan for 15 000 code replace your windows those have a program to see a lot of first have home buyer programs are out there but they're not us probably um well they're popular but they're not as prevalent because the mind is set up right away so you got money to perform that usually they have set aside x amount of dollars per year I think it's eaten alive right away because people want that money then you get refunded every year the question is where is it like coming from. [45:10] Councilmember Joshua Lee: Is going to get a pretty substantial is probably not to return we will get you know a few hundred thousand dollars a year from this natural-wide sales tax for housing of other cities again that you kind of work in talked about what they are going to do with their money you know I think we have like three years to spend it so it's not like we could hang on to it and figure something out and it comes in you on. [45:43] Tina Goodroad: Yeah right yeah I mean I still I'm still new right yeah I just came off the move legislative session so I think people are still trying to figure out what they're gonna do uh I really haven't heard a whole lot yet what you know what's Ian gonna do or what's your post about going to do I mean I really haven't heard yet how to figure out their money but um I'm sure it's gonna be a conversation that it's gonna be coming around here um we're formulating ideas and we do use an annual average of the CBG dollars yeah somewhere between 130 150 each year does fund through the CDA the Home Improvement programs okay so we are currently doing that just for the cdbg so this is a whole other pot of money that could add to that create our own program create something like you know down payment system other ideas to give us more tools without having that Levy which I would still like to see us do the levy because I think we can watch more topic for another day that's why there's a two-year moratorium that's definitely picks up once too I made it uh yeah a lot of students of bundle picks up bonds to say you've got a crappy 1950s building that's deteriorating yeah so they can go and fix that though that's a nice program to offer as well if that really helps clean up some of those. [47:06] Councilmember Dan Wolter: And we may have to get creative we may not know what's going to work right in Lakeville the first couple of years trying some programs that people don't bite and use the monies and pivot and you know good other programs you know because yeah I mean just from the report the Gap is like 25 to 35. I mean the first time home buyer money is how I um and I have a son that's 28 years old it's like this is very real for me but there's definitely that Gap where it'd be great to find a way to get people that want to own a home but I feel like they're kind of forced to rent because they just can't afford to own a home now and to close that Gap um but that's an uphill battle too because the child and it's working for five years now and as wages are not but they're nowhere and he's like hey it's one thing to have the program it's here I think to decide who you're targeting and what you have a opportunity bullet point here about modular housing. [48:15] Scott Mullins: Yeah so modular housing certainly has been a Hot Topic in the past too we're starting to see more product that is um the monitor is not it's an actual it could be a normal part of a building which is stacked you know you build one bunch of 200 300 units off-site to bring it stack them up analytical you would never know driving by it that wasn't stick build construction and I built a factory the benefit is um it's more efficient less waste quicker time frame um the downside is Transportation costs you know where is it being built a new plant in Latana rise modular um but you can build it quicker faster more efficiently than traditional instruction now the question is right now right now we're kind of have to break even point where you know yes it buys a time but another day you're not saving money the transportation cost eats up a lot of those dollars you just saved and shipping it bought with time it's getting more each year it's getting more and more efficient asking to create more Market shopping Nationwide and I was like five percent market share it's modular it's a pretty Tiny But even a small increase Supply and you know it can be single family as well you know um that our single family home builders to have built like Ranch Rambler Villas getting out of gas they look amazing. [49:57] Councilmember Joshua Lee: Do we have any ordinances against uh 3D printed houses yeah what's the price difference with that typical typically single family same size here stick build modular what's going to be the? [50:18] Scott Mullins: Well that's hard to say I mean it's and the day it's been the same price today today transport but it's definitely going to be a lower price per foot to build that off-site no question about it um what gets you is again the transportation costs they charge you about the miles so the further you are from that plant the more that cost goes up so you're not too far from Matata so it's not that far right but say you know if you're 100 miles away then it's like doesn't it doesn't pay to everyone right so you want to keep most of the plant um and it's a time thing you know it takes two weeks to frame a house you know but it takes five days to put modular together that saves time. [51:14] Councilmember Joshua Lee: How do you get a modular oh yeah well someone had said I'd say my I'll report my biggest one right now the developer wants to do a senior housing modular plan up 94. it's under construction right now um what you are going to see I apologize home building industry in general has been really late to the game and everything you're always behind like 20 years behind the wall so um it's fine starting to get some technology behind it but I think you know Twitter should always see obviously crazy what could happen 20 years ago between Ai and 3D printing and it gives you some pretty neat stuff I think so. [52:03] Councilmember Dan Wolter: Matt to that point look what Tip-Up panels did for the warehouse business yeah yeah changed it why can't we apply that same thing to homes it goes the way the warehousing you can drive by its site two days later well you know what it's not I mean that's how our Lady Grace built their edition of 100 is like within a week all of a sudden the school is twice the size because it was all it's not crazy it's good okay other questions everyone thank you. [52:37] Mayor Luke Hellier: I should mention we this presentation did go to the EDC side yeah so we've we're it's coming into the the culture of the city through all the different communities um okay we'll move on to item two and that is um Tina and Katie are giving us an update Industrial Park growth opportunities. [52:58] Tina Goodroad: PowerPoint um this came up um you all talked about your Council Retreats your interest in just kind of looking at where there might be some next opportunities to expand the industrial park so um Katie and I are okay to put the presentation together um she's going to run through some history of annexations that have occurred in Lakeville over the past couple of years and then we'll talk about some ideas again we are completely open to conversation discussion tonight get a little direction from you as to what your vision is you like the idea of expanding and like some of the areas that we're proposing um and then we'll talk about you know kind of two ways of the activity. [54:02] Katie [Staff]: Okay thanks for letting me have the opportunity to share this information with you I'm starting with the history since I've been here a little bit longer so just to set the stage um these are the two annexation statutes that we've used in the past for the four annexations that have happened most recently so the first one 414.0333 provides for a property owner to petition a city to Annex up to 120 acres of land that's contiguous to the city that's the one that's been used most frequently um and then the other statute provides procedure where the city and Township can agree on a process of orderly annexation and we've also used that so just putting those out there so for the first airport annexation um the Mac Metropolitan airports commission approached the city and they wanted to Annex 119 Acres that's under that 120 um threshold because they wanted to provide water and sewer service to extend to the South Runway area that's highlighted here they wanted to add additional private hangers um you can see on the map here these are existing hangers older hangers they don't have water sewer service and so they wanted to have that here um so they approach the city on January 2019 that was approved it's technically 118.93 Acres that use that first statute that kept it under 120 20 um that they're required the city's required to provide a 30-day notice the effect of Township annotation adjacent Property Owners so we had a public Hearing in January and then five residents came the primary purpose of this again was for these hangers and that did get approved. [55:53] Katie [Staff]: And then after that um there was more land as you can see in the yellow area that would have been over the acre threshold and because the township knew that the airport was interested in annexing all of this property they came to an agreement they worked with the city starting in May of 2019 with Mac City Township officials to do this orderly annexation process which ended up being 165 Acres that we agreed to and so then all of the yellow property highlighted was added within the city boundaries um and then there was a jpa a joint power agreement from the maintenance of that 225th Street that's the budding the property on the south end and then 2021 you had additional Land annexations This is for Industrial Development so um again we were approached with a petition for the Adelman farm that was with launch properties and they petitioned the city requesting the annexation of 115.57 Acres of property which was adjacent to the launch properties industrial area that already exists in the city and then the primary purpose again was for additional Industrial Development launch it had several buildings go into that area we get a lot of requests for large acre Parcels large buildings and so they wanted to just add to the options that they had in that area and then same with the rental property that was the ruddle family and skinnel properties they also petitioned the city onto Annex 91.37 Acres that was adjacent to the property it's right by Amazon it's just south of Amazon that's canel already owned and had developed and when I started six years ago that was 107 76 acres in this Canal area with no buildings and then we had qa1 Schneider events then the Amazon took up a very large portion so again just looking to expand the area for Industrial Development and those are both approved in May 2021. and then this just shows the total industrial building permit evaluation this is only building permit valuation it doesn't account for electrical Mechanical plumbing through water because we don't um take those out and then these are the large projects that we've had in the past few years so 2018 again that was the Schneiderman's and that was the first building that went into that Scannell properties area that kind of kicked off the construction and that area qa1 in 2019 that was the second building and then we have several expansions of existing buildings that were at the industrial park the Amazon biggest dollar amount biggest valuation. [59:00] Tina Goodroad: And this just kind of shows you um 2022 doesn't have a line here because they didn't have projects over a million valuation but there were lots of projects in that year um and so then total square footage that was added in the industrial park was pretty significant evaluation is also also I'm turning it over to Tina so to build off of the last line on that previous slide was the building that was permitted this year so we had that groundbreaking with oppaden the 360 000 square foot Warehouse manufacturing office facility for sweet Harvest Foods so that is underway walls are going up bring over the arrow that's when can you go the other way I'll try there you go and then behind that building we're still hoping for the cold storage facility that was approved early 70. that will break ground we're just doing some final review of the building permit so having two buildings within this year we're pretty excited about that so that'll be breaking ground this year and then as Katie mentioned the launch properties and then on the far bottom corner of the Adelman property we see below 222nd all of that property was in in that annexation area and if you recall back in I think it was January we had bioenergy at a work session and they've been working through that and they finally have a purchase agreement that signed with lunch properties and so that's the property start and we'll be bringing back to the Council on updated sketch plan you heard the comments from the council so they are flipping the site around and there's a text Amendment so we'll bring both the sketch plan and this text Amendment to the council hopefully in September so we just wanted to show kind of blown up a portion of the land use plans you can see um or the zoning ordinance I'm sorry all of the different industrial areas are kind of older Industrial Park some of these expansion areas this is the Adelman the ruddle and then these hatch Mark areas are important to note too in another slide as well as the office Park. [1:01:05] Tina Goodroad: So when you look at remaining the property all of that gray without the hatches we've got 393 acres and in that purple when that Office Park color about 254 years in the area with what's excluded from that is some of this area in the hatch that's all considered part of our rural Reserve so it's not in the current music so we're not counting those numbers because they're not developable today so that accounts for another 286 Acres so just in context for what we have today and what we have for our I'll call immediate future is the 339 acres in the i1 the 254 acres in the office Park and then an additional 286 Acres majority of that is in the i1 category some of those acres do have a lot of kind of I'll call them long-standing unique non-conforming uses that are going to be more difficult to turn over into Brand New Uses they're not the same as it just plain old Greenfield developments so they're going to be a little bit more complicated to develop we also have some with the stream there on some Shoreline difficulties so some of those Parcels are going to be less easy to develop in matters but just so you have an idea of the amount of Acres that we have to work with so as we update our 20 move into the next 10-year comprehensive plan we'll be revisiting that Mutual boundary bringing some of those 286 acres into the new South again just a reminder of the two different provisions of the statutes of how to go about annexation and then Katie and I sat down and came up with kind of a fairly basic approach to kind of square off the city if you will we talked to Zach and Paul about this layout as well so basically if you follow kind of this red boundary would be proposing this chunk could be brought in through annexation to square off again just to for context this is the ruddle square off this entire area between Dodd and Highview and we have the Mac property in between and then squaring off this last piece and this is the Edelman property in this location and then the launch so square that off so that just squares off the city neatly we do have a few homesteads that we went around and then this becomes the Scott County property and at the time our gut is thinking that we know there's some interest in these property owners in this location we're also wanting to be included in annexation the difficulty there and Zach and I just had a very brief conversation about today is it's going into a completely different County versus trying to stay these Parcels within Dakota County but just so you know these Parcels are also interested but this is just kind of a first blush and wanted to share this get reaction. [1:04:11] Tina Goodroad: From a standpoint of sewer so it was pretty easy to extend to this area depending on kind of what boundaries we play around with Zach and his team is going to want some opportunity to study water and just how difficult water might be and I think some of the other things that we want to keep in mind is kind of what our forecast is and why do we want to do this so we have some Acres left I think one of the points Matt brought up is how do we create more work more opportunities for jobs and good jobs within linkville we do do that by creating a land opportunity we do that by creating development opportunity and by having the right zoning in place so that we're really pushing for manufacturing jobs so we don't want to create new areas that is just purely warehouse and distribution so we want to do that either through extending the op zoning or having some kind of overlay so that we have some percentage that really pushes the envelope on that not exactly sure how that what that looks like but that is an option in talking to um different I talked to quite a few different developers just to get their take and then we found some of these fast facts the left side is the office Market on the right side is the industrial market we honestly don't see Lakeville being a market for just a brand new office building for the sake of building an office building what we're tending to see is those users wanting an office component a manufacturing component and a warehouse component and those are the users we really want to see and go after having a true 100 office we are seeing that however more of our commercial if you will with our medical and I think that Trend will continue in talking to some developers tenants are really wanting their perspective is access to Labor's most important followed by cost to transport Goods so we know we have a good educated Workforce here is our Workforce the kind and our jobs matching up maybe not quite as much as we want to right now but we do know we have an educated Workforce here um we're a desirable place to live and do work Warehouse our industrial positions and jobs and development follows rooftops just like retail does so because we've had so much growth and we're going to continue to see good industrial growth from a developer's perspective just like residential construction costs remain high and there is stress in that Financial Market as well that's why we're seeing the slowdown in some of the industrial growth this year and that's expected to last through next year we're not seeing developers go out in front and build those um spec buildings there just isn't um they're just it's just too risky right now but it's going to come back cities should continue to look at flexibility and Zoning I think we've done a pretty good job of that and then financing everybody wants help whether that's tip whether that's tax abatement whether that's getting creative through assessments when infrastructure needs to get built to spread that cost and um in from a Time standpoint so being creative out of all of that we should keep in mind um but in the end this is kind of the area that we wanted to start the conversation if we were to pursue this the way that we pursue it um whether we work with individual Property Owners or if we do as Katie described in the the larger annexation and work with the township this is all within Eureka Township so it is an option to work on it in its entirety so I'll give you the board questions and comments. [1:08:01] Mayor Luke Hellier: I think I will just say one thing the last time we had a larger annexation members of the Town board were not super thrilled I want to make sure that we all have that on the table um but it has worked out well for us so it's a problem with being the big bad City one of those situations just do that because there it was contentious um we did both of the annexations at the same time but they were both under the 120 so it was an orderly I think orderly helps make a difference in that but yes I mean I from my early perspective if the infrastructure stuff makes sense there's a desire I think it makes sense I think trying to work out an orderly process with the township should at least be the initial conversation. [1:09:05] Councilmember Dan Wolter: Um do they have any plans of going to get their City status so that we can Annex? [1:09:12] Tina Goodroad: I personally not aware of any I don't know if anybody else is I haven't heard of any it took credit River and Empire several years of planning. [1:09:20] Councilmember Dan Wolter: Is there any type of trigger that if they do go down that path and it makes it more difficult if we weren't going to be orderly it makes it very hard to Annex from another city. [1:09:30] Katie [Staff]: No no I mean if if let's say they're starting a process on why we come to study is that I don't think so I mean all of these have been petitioned by the landowner and so as long as they were still technically attention I think I don't think I don't think there's a shot clock or pause. [1:10:04] Mayor Luke Hellier: What conversation has had with like current landowners in the city um because we're always trying to balance to say we're not you know if there's land available that's already in the city we don't want to saturate the market if you will but I know at the same time we're kind of right to do this because at some point we are starting to run out now I'll just say from my own perspective you know when I talk to mayors we meet with the Regional Council Mayors they're jealous of our industrial park when you have a community that you get to the point where you have so much burden on the residents and not having the expanded pie it hurts every year the property tax literally hurts so the more that we can expand the pie in my opinion I agree you know the residents um the parcel that we've received the most interest over the past year is this one and like I said through a broker we did hear interest from that this family it's two different Parcels this is Scott County so I can't you know get it. [1:11:13] Councilmember Joshua Lee: Um there is interest on that property as well how would that work for us then now being in two counties or what? [1:11:18] Justin Miller: Well does it matter I mean you pray to split between yeah two counties right so I don't it's not impressive a little more paperwork and a budget time and stuff like yeah. [1:11:32] Tina Goodroad: And I think from a transportation standpoint um Etc you know you're dealing with another County in terms of you know kind of overlapping rules between Dakota and Scat if you know these Parcels were to come in and develop so on the space of it it's just you know easier to stay within one County does it mean it can't happen there's a lot of dirt roads still out there. [1:12:12] Councilmember John Bermel: Is there a scenario where the counties would uh swap boundaries? [1:12:20] Councilmember Dan Wolter: what's that little on that green line what's the carve out there is it what's not as straight as up? [1:12:26] Tina Goodroad: It's a cemetery. [1:12:28] Mayor Luke Hellier: We got enough Cemetery problems I don't want them just not just so give it a straight line okay so we haven't had conversations other than on this end we haven't had conversations that I'm aware of Katie might can correct me I don't know of too many within this area that had approached us. [1:12:51] Katie [Staff]: Dave's been approached in the past okay on a few of these but the thought process um before this conversation has always been you know does it make sense um is it contiguous to development that's already happening so in those situations they were kind of like one-off Parcels where these that we did Annex were larger you know it makes sense because the airport and the industrial properties both were right next to existing large industrial properties that developers were already controlling sometimes the people who are asking us was looking to escape their problems and yeah um and so we were you know we have never supported bringing something together without knowing exactly what they wanted to do with the property okay and um. [1:13:46] Councilmember John Bermel: Well in terms of land use there's additional annexation opportunity with next to rail does that how do you guide or what are our options for guiding land use to make the best use of things like rail that are right there and other you know County Roads that are going to 35 you know matching the lane used to what's available? [1:14:10] Tina Goodroad: Well and we've had some conversation that I know um than I am on just the whole Progressive conversations and if is there a different parcel that we could utilize for that um I think land in this area we would want to continue industrial from just a pure land use standpoint and then figure out what the right appropriate zoning you know so under the land use of industrial we have i1 I2 I think the old P which is the office Park actually falls under and from a landing standpoint under the commercial designation so we would be looking at that um as you know if we dug into expanding these areas and then figure out the appropriate staging as well. [1:14:52] Mayor Luke Hellier: I mean remember we lost up at Home Depot because we didn't have enough all of a sudden you've got more land that has rail running through the middle of it yeah one in that situation about um they were looking at the Amazon site and so then it would have had to come across it was very expensive yeah well I could definitely sure but there could be a Spur through that hole yeah when it's right next time right yep well I'm all for trying to get our base up and all that it's a little sensitive I mean if I'd be all for if they decided that why don't we just be late though and that you know let the township just let us take him over periods so we just went in from this kind of a scenario to you and we'll continue to yeah off the landowners um but we just wanted to see if there's any respect and sound curious okay thank you okay good I guess I'm not worried about I mean as you do your research it'd be nice to be able to take that Scott County person to or even the one below it just even Square it out some more is there other support for that so again that would be and we didn't put the line around and this one came up kind of more recently these Parcels or even going all the way over yeah I mean I think if there's a land of Desire I'm willing to have the conversation about it all right I think that'd be more remarkable than even some of the warrant here it would be from quick access to the internet yeah you're right yeah okay thank you we'll keep you informed okay we're on time. [1:16:59] Mayor Luke Hellier: So let's go into number three livable communities up again. [1:17:05] Tina Goodroad: All right thank you mayor members of the council I'll be real quick on this one um so the local communities Act is a program of the Metropolitan Council Lakeville was last a member in 2020 and again all of their Grant programs can assist with a lot of different things policy development pre-development planning so if we got into a Redevelopment area we could ask for dollars to pay for all of that planning work and then it goes all the way into development costs from whether it's site clearing acquisition of a building to make way for redevelopment actual construction costs goes into they have funds for sites and cleanup Etc so there's a lot of different opportunities the programs and the grants are on a competitive basis so it's not a guarantee that if we join this program we're always going to win a grant um but the other thing is the participation by the city of Lakeville opens up these dollars for Dakota County CDA so Dakota County CDA can only go after their annual funding programs if the community is a member so there is a benefit to that because of the state funding that we talked about earlier this evening which is over close to 395 000 annually we feel like this would be a good year to re-enter and re-enroll into this program so we can possibly leverage other Grant funds from the Met Council combine our resources those kinds of resources as well as developer resources on a possible project again it's no guarantee that a program or a project is going to work but it does give us the opportunity to explore it and so that is why I'm suggesting that we re-enroll on the staff report what is necessary is approving a resolution and that resolution needs to include the housing rules these are the exact same housing goals that are in your adaptive comprehensive plan so we're not renegotiating think we're not changing any kind of commitment that we have again these are goals they're not mandates so nothing is being changed on that front and we would be in the program through 2030. so we don't have to re-enroll we do it once you're in for the remainder of the decade the city is actually close to meeting that one um the goal for the 51 to 80 Ami which is the approval of the Authentics that was 252 units so we are already close to approving or approaching one of those goals so again we'd really enroll we would have to do by November 15th that's why we're bringing it too early with that simple resolution and then we would go through and try to start building some relationships with our staff relationships work with them um start um putting in probably a couple pre-development Grant options so that they are aware of what's going on in Lakeville part of that is the the competitiveness that you have to do um again not going to promise that we utilize this dollars but it doesn't count it doesn't cost us anything to be a participant and we are the only large city in Dakota County who isn't um I know that might be a source of pride in some historical Viewpoint of the Met Council um I'm not a promoter of the Met Council I've had my own opinions in other communities that I work for about the Met Council but it's Unique now with the amount of funding that is coming into the state and I also don't want to prohibit the CDA from being able to take an opportunity with that funding so if we enroll they would have possibility for a project as well so I'd stand for any questions. [1:20:50] Councilmember Michelle Volk: So my first question how so for instance we've gotten several grants over the years um for loans or where you want to call them like to take down Burger King and two hunks and perhaps it's not like there's a lack of ability to get grants from the net Council so how's that different? [1:21:13] Tina Goodroad: Those are funnel those are the Ralph funds probably funnel through the transportation department so these are just specific more related to obviously housing more related to building affordable housing it's just a different part of the Met Council different pot of funds. [1:21:28] Councilmember Michelle Volk: Well honestly I don't like being connected to the Met Council and then to be connected to him for another seven years so I think at first when I saw this and oh and then I read the resolution whoa that's a long time I I there's always strings with them and I just not having any strengths would be really nice. [1:21:49] Tina Goodroad: Well we're always kind of under them from the standpoint and we always have to do a compound we're always going to have to negotiate with them on forecasts the system statement and the projection for households and all of that that happens every you know 10 years that process is actually going to start in two years we always have to negotiate with them on the affordable housing boards so all of that's already been adopted and it's part of the plan so I don't I don't know I mean I get your opinion um but I think we're already free I think everybody in the Twin Cities Metropolitan is pretty tight in the med Council from that part of it and having to do the comp plan so this is just one piece of possibly getting some funding because we do all that we're playing the game that it could benefit. [1:22:42] Councilmember Joshua Lee: Mike my question was because you're right we already are tied and you already have is there anything new that would be a tie by adopting this resolution? So in other words is there something that we're not I don't know how to explain it right what I'm thinking but um you know is there some other condition that comes with that's pretty much what we've done already but a lot of cities use these downtown would have to be just housing it can be right Assad improvements again these streets give you improvements so there would be streams if we accepted any money yeah they're going to have certain requirements up front that'll be just part. [1:23:45] Councilmember Joshua Lee: Prefer to keep our doors open to opportunities. [1:23:48] Councilmember Dan Wolter: Can I ask I think I'm the only one who wasn't here in 2020 when we were last a member under this program what was the discussion then it was just lapsed or mislapsed and it wasn't add you to the council at the time I mean I don't think it wasn't brought forward as a decision I don't remember discussing it just well um as a former member of the Metropolitan so who dealt with this or the other side of it I mean livable communities back in the day was always kind of both the carrot and the stack it was the intention to give the carrot so they could beat you with the stick on the affordable housing goals so um I don't know I'm probably in Michelle's Camp I'm a little skeptical I mean I mean I think one of the hardest type of housing products we we always talk about are affordable housing units so I don't know I don't mind okay so I don't necessarily want the CDA products I'd rather have something comment from a different developer um I I am in similar random I am not interested in tying ourselves in the council um my question is you know next year we're going to have pots of money for housing issues um if we feel like that's not we can't chart our own path can we come back a year from now and say oh we want to do this because it's not what we're trying to do we can't do with what the funds that we have I just I haven't I mean the legislature for a decade has said oh we're going to reform and fix the net Council and it's just never happened so I'm just I we can we have the option every year we get a letter every year do you want to rejoin re-enroll and so we have the option before November 15th of every year to reevaluate it so if there isn't the the feeling of uh certainty that you want to do it this year we can pause and we can revisit it next year and is it always for this length of time yeah it's always a 10-year cycle between compliance probably Sophie joy and at the end of a decade it's just those years like two years yep exactly just for whatever that remaining decade is so in this case it's through 2030. [1:26:27] Tina Goodroad: Previously other cities in Dakota County though we're not members and so there's kind of been this back and forth was it right? [1:26:35] Councilmember Dan Wolter: Yeah I mean when I looked at the list last week all the you know Egan Burnsville Apple Valley all the larger communities in Dakota County are mountains but not every city in the Twin Cities you know we're not like the only city that's not a member um I think probably the majority are and again I'm not trying to push this I see my rule as being a little bit you know being new it's an opportunity for me to kind of dust things off and like okay I'm gonna keep doing this yeah but you keep doing what you're doing and sometimes a land one previous money isn't available I mean to me if the incentive is we want more affordable housing I think we're looking at options if money's there. [1:27:26] Councilmember Joshua Lee: I the one thing is why do we have to get money they have when we can do it? [1:27:32] Councilmember Dan Wolter: I think councilor Walter is the hitter right on the head it's it's the carrot in the stick you know because as as Justin said you know if we were successful now the pre-development grants don't have much um requirements around it but once you get into a larger project there are requirements particularly tied to affordable homes and I'm not even guaranteeing we would even qualify I mean a lot of um and I have some history with this program when I worked in the city of Burnsville yeah I was part of a team that worked on two grants they are over four million dollars they're one of the largest Grant recipients at the very early stage of the LCA so the whole um Nicollet Commons park and the street system on the east side of Nicollet was all paid for by um these dollars but it was tied to some creation of affordable housing so there was that here in the stick but in that example a lot of good came out of it a lot of work and in St Louis Park on Excelsior grant that was probably the first big showcase project that used LCA dollars but when I worked for many many cities as a consultant I also often argued on their committees the opposite side is you're not Distributing the money well enough and that's still my argument when we met with the staff that was still my argument because so many of the dollars go into Saint Paul Minneapolis and they cannot figure out how the suburbs should compete with just the suburbs and the inner city with each other they just can't figure that out after what 30 years of this program yeah so I have my own reservations but at the same time it's also my job to bring things together. [1:29:26] Councilmember John Bermel: Absolutely um our opportunities for you so I get the reservation I mean we've already talked about today that there's a mismatch in the labor market in Lakeville and we need to somehow support that and so it shouldn't be obtaining some of these housing goals should be our goal and if that comes with some opportunities and funds to make that happen that's that's where I feel like we need to step up even if it we don't agree with the Met Council as a whole. [1:30:03] Mayor Luke Hellier: But it doesn't sound like three votes for this time. [1:30:06] Tina Goodroad: We are having conversations with other types of affordable apartment Builders we do have someone who's pretty interested in one particular sites so hoping that that's a project that we can bring to you in the natural distant future thank you thank you good. [1:30:22] Mayor Luke Hellier: um thank you Tina um I think Justin are you taking the CIA? [1:30:31] Justin Miller: Uh thank you mayor council so uh tonight's their first look at the CIP we do have Julie here from Finance as well as Laura Miller from Finance follow me Oliver's and Zach Johnson our decision I'm not going to get into too many details on this uh just other than you'll notice that this is a big plan that this year 23 24 25 are some of the biggest years of the plan a lot of that is due to the parts so if you are worried about a little bit of a spike in those numbers you can rest your shirts because those are the projects that are coming up so um but this is the Transportation uh utilities environmental resources and parts section will be running in the next sections to even the August Works session as well so the projects are broken out in this document as well as the funding sources pretty much it's a lot of the same that you saw last year if you just took another year added to the end so um you know I think we do a really good job of tracking this and balancing it and trying to put projects around some of the big things you'll see in here or that you won't see in here that you'll see buildings is like the Public Works expansion I think we think we've met out to 27 but that's gonna you're not seeing that tonight that's going to be at a different level as well as a water treatment plan that's going to be a future year further out the expansion we're still looking at some options there so um you know I think I'd probably just leave it at that see if you have any specific questions about Project Specific we have the team here or if it's it's otherwise. [1:32:02] Councilmember Michelle Volk: Yeah I'm just gonna throw it out there I know it's not gonna be [Music] everyone's liking um when you look at the oci for um 24 through 28. I was wondering um because the numbers are starting to come up and I realize that's been the goal all along but um we have such a heavy burden coming up in the next couple years I was wondering if we could take a year break at 25 and then start back up because I don't think that um I don't know I'm not that expert but it just looks to me that we could go a year and not totally decimate the system but yet it would help our taxpayers to just because we've got a lot of big things on the plate does that make sense but when I'm asking so I don't know what you guys are thinking and what you guys have for expert opinion on it but talking about a complete break from yeah not doing 25 you just moved 25 to 26 one year not not do it. [1:33:14] Justin Miller: What's our what's kind of our scale because that would be 5 million right Wilson and 25 I think most of the projects are or overlays and I think they're going to be like six or seven miles worth of streets for a program for that year is today's numbers they are yeah so right and that's what and I realize they're today's numbers but I'm looking at the numbers that were ahead of it that we've worked on already and I just felt like and I'm just saying whatever we had a year 20 degrees and 25 it won't be a 69. um no it won't will it be will it be probably not does that that I mean that would be your expert opinion in two years time will downgrade that far that um. [1:34:20] Zach Johnson: I mean if you look at the years prior to 28 2018 to 2023 there was a lot of those years are the Reconstruction years and that's why the projects are so expensive though so the plan moving forward is trying to keep our streets out of the Reconstruction areas and when you hit like 50 and um not you know when they get down to that low It's just sometimes it's iffy if you want to Overlay it because you really got to take a look at those streets going to last the life of a or difficult really project so it's it's always nice to keep a routine yeah project because we have Staffing that's that's allocated with these projects and it's uh there's some expectations out there for the neighborhoods as well. [1:35:10] Councilmember Joshua Lee: I was just trying to even out some of these years exactly I mean with because we've got all these other projects that are spiking this ah and I just thought you know if we could lay low on one year I realize that routine is a good thing and that you know I'm not trying to say I'm only saying one year try to find ways to pull back a little bit I give her a say that I think if we were in a mode of tall construction I would agree I'm just gonna compare two years ago 20 15. we did just under 10 miles and it cost 25 million dollars because that's total construction and then if you fast forward to 26 you're going to do just maybe a mile less and it's 5.6 million inflation higher cost so just it doesn't look great but the fact that we're investing to extend the road instead of total reconstruction that's where I I would you know what I'm saying. [1:36:20] Councilmember Joshua Lee: Yeah and also remember you know you won't be we'll be paying 5 million on that obviously we're bonding for this and so these projects and so the annual Levy impact wouldn't be five million dollars when you get to bomb us some less interesting yeah okay and I didn't have any questions on this okay other questions. [1:36:53] Mayor Luke Hellier: I I know this is not on here the with the water and public works as we get down again I'll just sit hanging creative with other governmental partners that maybe have need for water or storage just to think about that I don't know how those conversations are going but those are both huge numbers and seeing where conservation might play it yeah with the new billing cycles that are everyone's going to feel it next month as they get their bills for summer irrigation so. [1:37:30] Paul Oehme: Oh um I thought maybe you could talk about this study that's going on here now that might have a little bit of impact so so we're we are looking at the new way to treat our water and Nutri so it's um we're going to bring it back at a future console meeting but it's instead of using chlorine basically to help precipitate out the iron and manganese in the water we're actually looking at kind of a more organic process there's uh actually the Department of Health is working with several other communities in metro area now out of state right now I'm converting their treatment facilities into more of a biological process so there's a lot of Advantage a lot of advantages with that one you decreased amount of chemicals that you put in the in the water to you can put more water you can the filter system is that you can have more water going through it uh basis so and then three it's it's uh yeah it would save a lot of cost in the future with an expansion so we're looking at potentially not having to if this process works out for us we're looking at potentially not having to add additional filters which is we have half the cost of the of the class of the expansion so um but so we're still in the study phase we're going to know maybe another four weeks of how well this is going to work with the chem the chemistry of the water that we have we have some aeration issues we've got to work through and then the filters to these filters are kind of ancient so to get it up to the biological standard you really need waste of the the filter so there's some cost up front but on the back and you'd potentially a lot of money on uh future future treatment needs well. [1:39:14] Mayor Luke Hellier: Okay other questions okay I want you to apologize for tearing up this half of town right now I know exactly calls I'm sure about you teachers yeah and just a reminder it wasn't initially planned this way 179 is what was supposed to be done last year County rejected the bids and got pushed back a year so we did not intend to shut down the entire quadrant of the city. [1:39:43] Paul Oehme: You know what we forget about it it takes about four months or so and then we forget all about it I'm probably working pretty good though with the weather we've been very fortunate we're basically at a schedule on all our projects. [1:40:02] Mayor Luke Hellier: Good okay so I can't remember the exact timing I believe we bring this back for formal approval in October October so um like I said you'll see the next part of the CIP at the next session as well okay thank you both appreciate it all right I will I will keep it on for the second quarter financial report thank you. [1:40:35] Justin Miller: I won't do this near the justice that um Julie well the next time um but um second quarter financial report um nothing of note really everything's going fine we're halfway through the year you always like to see things at around 50 some of those things are more because of you know we do a lot of more plowing and the Springtime and the first part of the year in the year and um I will say that we're also I mean this will tell you we are in heavy into budget meetings right now and we're looking at a lot of the actions that are going through this year to put that together for next year as well so um so yeah I don't know about that when we meet our goal on this [Music] um that'll be close yeah well um you know every month I watch it and we've been catching up to last year's Pace more and more every month so um we'll see I mean we heard we heard our consultant earlier I mean there's still a strong demand it's now they can build yeah the same with the town homes I mean that looks like like that's even further away that's all part of the budgeting though right it is I mean the effects when the apartments are over what we yeah yeah that's true and I didn't know how that and the town homes those kind of come in in chunks um when they come in is there any of the pipeline that would put spikes in either of these numbers the permits and included um nothing that would probably start free ground this year yeah okay we do have that Crown Apartments there's two apartment projects and you've approved over by 179th and Cedar one senior one is market rate they put a pause on both of those um so those probably aren't going to be coming in yet this year um the single family product keeps coming in so we keep seeing new plats come in so it's not like things are just totally dying yeah oh a little bit slower. [1:42:35] Mayor Luke Hellier: Um this isn't necessary here but do we have a closing date for ALC? [1:42:41] Justin Miller: Well it was set for November 1st but I'm hearing that they might be out of that building like very very soon oh the school district was supposed to approve the purchase treatment to tomorrow night so I will check with Bill and if there's any chance we can close earlier we will but for sure by the first November 1st okay good job thanks yeah did you wanna do you want to weigh in on any of these then you're based on your first glance. [1:43:08] Julie Stahl: Yeah um no Geralyn did share with me about the work comp coming in so much higher yeah I'm sorry and that is allocated out to the Departments it's in an allocation of those premiums but then the Insurance Fund is actually getting built up by the savings between them there's a calculation to the manual premium and what we end up paying because of our the rating modification Factor so if need be if you need to do it transfers are the insurance went back into the general fund help offset some of those in that increase we can do that and then you'll just budget for for the section because the rate once they give you the reading it doesn't really go downstairs um so the budget the budget you're working on now will not have paid leave increase though that is the year after that'd be 25 I think any questions on the financial stuff we're entertain a five minute recess before we jump into this next time if that's okay with everybody works for me all right before we recess. [1:44:57] Mayor Luke Hellier: So um so we'll we'll now move into item sixth ordinance amendments related to adult use cannabis um I think there's a few people that may want to weigh in but what I'll have to do is have Mr Miller kind of maybe give a brief overview and then we can kind of take each of these three separately and have conversation uh and then we'll probably you know before we kind of move in a direction maybe take some comment because I think that there's some so okay I'll let you. [1:45:30] Justin Miller: Thank you uh mayor council there's three draft ordinances here tonight um the first is related to the public use of cannabis um August 1st um it becomes legal to use cannabis in Minnesota the state legislature does though allow cities to limit the use of that in certain in certain public places and so our city attorneys dropped in an ordinance for your review tonight the second ordinance relates to smoking and draft ordinance right now use of tobacco is allowed in city parks I think there was some thought amongst the council that if we are prohibiting and if you do go down the route and prohibiting an income Parks it doesn't make sense also to restrict the use of tobacco as well and then the third item is draft ordinance of a moratorium the state the legislature when they did pass the Cannabis law the first retail licenses most likely are not going to be issued by the state until January 1st of 2025. so this the state is allowing cities to put in a moratorium on new cannabis related businesses between now and then with the intention of the Cities do have to perform a study do have to do some work on it the purpose that we brought this for you tonight is that we have started to receive some calls from potential businesses who are looking at hey I might want to buy some property I might want to enter into some agreements here am I going to be okay in doing this we're at a point where we can't really say that yet and so we're not necessarily advocating Pro or con because most likely we're going to have time to produce the zoning revisions and stuff like that before 21 or before January 1 2025 but we just wanted to let you know that we are if you didn't want to um just put people's mind at ease about making some Investments and that this would be one way to do that like I said likely no licenses are going to be issued before that time but it does at least provide some certainty to some resident or not residents but business owners who might be looking and doing that so did I miss here then the last work session it was as if the attorney was suggesting that it would be something you probably wouldn't really want to do because what would be them it doesn't like yeah I mean it's more of a Belgian suspenders time yeah nobody's going to be able to get a license for this product or to sell before that timing before the moratorium would end it's more just to um keep people from knowing let's I'll say it like I don't know what you're going to decide about doing downtown okay and I don't know if somebody would want to enter into a purchase agreement or a lease agreement today knowing they can't sell something until January 25 but they might or they might start to enter into some agreements or discussions with properties it just gives them some peace of mind basically that I'm not going to be able to do it here or I'm going to be able to do it here or I'm going to wait to be sure that I'm not spending some money resources and then the only other the way unless I miss hurt this information um because of the limit well now we're not even talking about limits here with any one of these documents but by putting moritorium on when we be then already limiting because of of other cities that would automatic and would not go to a moratorium and would be putting these places into place and that that we'd be limiting the number of places that are left available for Lakeville uh no not necessarily because you aren't going to be able to get a license until January 1st 2025 and we are layout by state law to limit the number um by City one for every 12 500 residents there's also a county-wide cap right you can get into it as well but um we want the face of that until January of 2025. [1:49:38] Mayor Luke Hellier: I think and we'll get to this discussion because I want to start the other one but I think part of it also is let's say somebody buys a piece of property assuming that they can open a business there does that tie our hands when they're zoning later because that might not be an ideal place for a dispensary in our when we you know what I'm saying so it's more of that to say if you buy a building in on one street corner but then you're with a thousand feet of school and we decided to do 750 something you know then buy everywhere you know so it's a risk to the business owners and that instance but I think all right we'll get to that conversation so let's start with um the public use of hemp and cannabis products you'll find that this is the exact opposite conversation we had last month because there's even there were some I think misunderstanding from how the legislation came and um apparently even the office of cannabis management changed their website in the last couple weeks on public consumption so there I think that's why we're having this conversation is to say many cities run the assumption that you were not allowed to have these products in public areas and so this is our ability to have a response to that I will say for me personally we can open it up for discussion I'm less concerned we do have some definitions about Edibles and I'm less concerned about that and public use and I'm more concerned with the nuisance of smoking vaping so I for me to move forward on this I would probably pull out the prohibition on Lower potency hemp edibles or ham derived consumer products basically faciliters those type of things. [1:51:30] Councilmember Dan Wolter: Foreign thoughts about this yeah I mean I mean uh I mean in favor of an ordinance that restricts the use the question that I had was around yeah why and I think most of it is is to just minimize the nuisance that that I mean pot is totally different cigarettes and uh so I would support it to just make sure that you know we have a uh a downtown and a park system um that this and then potentially even smoking just isn't that something that's that's normal uh which I mean we already have the legalization but they left it to the cities to decide how they want that use normalized in their communities and I've gotten feedback and I think most of the feedback I received is just I would like to go enjoy the beautiful vanities like built did not have to experience a pungent smell when they do that so I'm supportive especially at the uh the smoking and the baby piece um in the Edibles I can I mean we've been having those in our community already for some time uh without restriction with a members issue the meat I think that I thought was so strange is that when they pass a medical marijuana in Minnesota that doesn't allow public consumption of smoking a baby and all of a sudden we say we're moving to recreational so now all of a sudden it's okay I thought that was very strange in the legislature would go One Direction for medicinal in a totally different direction for recreational well the other piece is for the confusion I mean it's going through when I was hearing was this is on private property and it's in your own home it's in your friend's home it's it's in private brain and all of a sudden it was just almost a total 180 that knowing we'll be able to smoke it anywhere and I think it's well within a city's purview to be able to once again just decide how how we want to normalize this as it I absolutely. [1:54:10] Councilmember Joshua Lee: Question yeah does it smell the same when it's regulated versus when it's not regulated? [1:54:14] Mayor Luke Hellier: Yes okay well I figured with all your hard rock concert well I'm used to the smell of all my hard rock answers yes but um Joshua. [1:54:25] Councilmember Joshua Lee: Doesn't mean I am not supportive of this first ordinance I you don't have a problem that we're trying to solve yet I think there's a lot of fear about what is coming um and as we get to the public parks piece I think that's a different conversation because the primary use is for children in those spaces and I think that's a different conversation but public spaces around something that is not an issue at this moment in time and that in terms of the business owners that I've talked to is not a concern yet um I'd I'd rather respond to something that becomes an issue that preemptively say this is this is a rampant concern um especially when we're not trying to there's no such problem yet to solve um so from an enforcement standpoint I think it gets really messy with tobacco versus cannabis use and nuisance calls I just I I don't want our law enforcement spending their time on a singular person that's smoking pot downtown um so at this moment in time I just I don't support this first ordinance change. [1:55:54] Mayor Luke Hellier: You're saying it's too prohibitive? [1:55:57] Councilmember Joshua Lee: It's too prohibitive and that we're we don't know what an issue is we're just anticipating anticipating something that may not exist. [1:56:12] Mayor Luke Hellier: um in you know and and chief Paulson's on the line too but I think law enforcement is going to be involved people are going to call and they're going to say somebody's smoking it's bothering me whether it's in a neighborhood or downtown um when I heard at the last uh the last time we discussed this was technically it's not legal this is what our City attorney said but there's no penalty um in that it's up to the cities to decide if we want to instill penalty which is a petty Master here which by the way before August one that's the penalty for pod end for marijuana anyway um and bless you all you know too much you know 42.5 grams or more it's a petting misdemeanor so I for me I see this as we're just as a city saying the spirit is uh uh you can you shouldn't be using it in public but there's really no penalty for that so we're just saying I think I think law enforcement is some point it's going to be involved in any way shape or form if somebody feels it's induisance they're going to call or maybe not law enforcement they'll call to say I mean I think a perfect example is to taste of Lakeville it's not a youth advantages to be 21 but this will prevent people from smoking marijuana in the middle of basically public property is being rented by private entity. [1:58:20] Councilmember Joshua Lee: Two libertarian unless it is what it is but all right it's a little bit too overreach you know on the city's part for this but yeah if there's anybody in the audience that wanted to come in but um libertarian at heart on this issue as well. [1:58:43] Councilmember Dan Wolter: Um The Challenge I've got um and I think why I'm supportive of both of these first two um is the experience we've had in other places where I I mean don't go to go to Minneapolis and St Paul right now and the streets rake of pot and it's not legal yet um my heart changed on this one summer I was I was Firebrand libertarian on this issue and then went to Denver and Portland and then in the same summer and I ended up in a Krispy Kreme with secondhand Munchies because of the street because of the smell on the streets and I I think this is a smart ways I love Krispy Kreme but I was wondering when I was in there um but to me this is the go go and slow approach I you know it's it's about the character of a community this issue has been discussed has been discussed and determined that the legislature so there's only so much we can do um but I'm I'm looking at what it means to the community in terms of [Music]. [1:59:42] Councilmember Michelle Volk: People we're gonna be able to smoke in their cars at the park yeah um that only applies at parks yeah yeah I realized that but I it's like it's just it reminds me too much of Iowa's uh um what do you call those places you drive into and you go the restroom rest areas you know and you're not allowed to smoke in your car in a rest area but you could have smoked down the road as you went down the road it just doesn't makes no sense to me it's your car and you're in the parking lot now you're not around all these other people in the park that's the only problem I had with it I can be amended you know I just totally thought you know I get not doing it in the Parks make it enjoyable for everybody or whatever but um the car joking little nuts. [2:01:05] Mayor Luke Hellier: So I'm gonna is there anybody that wanna that's here in the audience that want to comment on the first the public use portion of cannabis okay so. [2:01:19] Don Seiler: uh Don Seiler one of the owners of Lakeville Brewing Company um I don't know that we have an opinion a push one way or another but I'm just gonna describe some of the concerns that we have and some of the things that we're thinking about as this is going to come into play um one is um managing uh customer consumption and there are already regulations around serving someone both THC containing products and alcoholic beverages um so we are concerned a little bit if people are able to casually step outside smoke a joint and then walk back inside and have a beer on kind of a compounding effects of THC and alcohol consumption and the fact that there wouldn't be anything we could really do to stop a person from stepping outside and consuming that other that other substance um we worry about the deterring effect as people have mentioned of you know a family wanting to come into our restaurant and they walk past people who are smoking cannabis out front in the same place where cigarette smoking is allowed we've kind of managed the cigarette smoking you know that's not allowed Insider facility nor do we allow that even Outdoors most of our customers don't like that smoke while they're trying to eat um and and our customers are respectful of that and and they step outside um the the Gated area and they go to a designated spot which we've provided for them um but we don't feel comfortable allowing that space to be used for candidates for um just the deterring effect that we anticipated would have on what we perceive to be a majority of our patrons so these are just concerns and questions that we have um we put a lot of effort into um appealing to the a very very broad range of of customers in in Lakeville and establishing our place as a family spot and a comfortable place for a community um and this is one polarizing thing that could could disrupt our customer experience and distract our staff from taking care of our customers so those are the things that we're concerned about. [2:03:15] Councilmember Michelle Volk: we don't make an ordinance can a business do whatever they want? They can put up signs and say it's not allowed not on the sidewalks no in his establishment if he didn't want to have any thought smoking at his establishment could he not have the right if we didn't have an ordinance against it would he not as a business owner have the right to establish for his own business that he did not want to do his business. [2:03:38] Justin Miller: yes but they can't smoke inside anyway right. [2:03:41] Councilmember Michelle Volk: right but but even his designated outdoor smoking section he could have a sign that would say tobacco only yes. [2:03:49] Justin Miller: sure but even if we didn't but half short of the sidewalk into public property butts it and that's a whole different issue than whether there's smoke there. [2:04:02] Councilmember Dan Wolter: I mean what I heard is once you get into the Dual consumption because anybody who owns a business that serves alcohol is responsible for uh not over serving and and so if you have somebody that's smoking marijuana and then drinking alcohol to um that that affects the ability to do that it's like what I heard was less about the smoke and where it's managed and more about um how we manage consumption uh mind altering substances alcohol and marijuana might what I heard. [2:04:39] Mayor Luke Hellier: Other comments um I think that there's consensus to vote on this I don't think it's total consensus but there's at least three people that want to vote on this I would think the three of you or three of us were on this saying that it was more of smoking and vaping and not on the edibles and so maybe next ordinance for without that removes the um references to Edibles and consumable products. [2:05:25] Councilmember Dan Wolter: that would make the argument too in support of where the Renewables that like in what we were just talking about the Edibles are prescribed amount um you actually know that to some extent what you're dealing with smoking is kind of the Wild West in terms of what's the level of THC um how is it affecting your body which different scenario. [2:05:54] Mayor Luke Hellier: So that'll be on August 7th okay all right moving on to the second and that is the related smoking in city parks I did hear your concern about that Michelle I don't know if others are concerns for me I think to try to ensure that there's not confusion and amongst those that are consuming cannabis that having no smoking in the Parks is probably the direction I would go because it at least ensures that it's like I want to use the Lower Level Playing Field but it's like we're not somebody's not you know saying smoking a joint but they're like oh it's a cigarette yeah we avoid that problem with this the disorder so that's that's my take I don't know if others have input. [2:06:40] Councilmember Michelle Volk: Well I really like you guys to consider the car I think you've got relatives coming in to you know join some family event or whatever and to suddenly they don't have any place to go um they're an adult they made the choice to smoke cigarettes I get it you don't want it around the kids but in their own car I just don't I don't get it. [2:07:05] Mayor Luke Hellier: Where was the 7-1-7 so when we state city park does that assume the green space and that's why it was or adjacent public parking lot so by removing adjacent public parking lot the ordinance would then just apply to create space at a park or do we have to accept that green space what's that city parks in Green Space and take out the parking lot just trying to figure out how do you word that to ensure that it's clear that parking lots are okay but not [Music] right. [2:07:55] Councilmember Dan Wolter: I don't I mean if if the goal it might be the goal again is to try to take away the situation where there's an argument about what's tobacco what's cannabis um lining those up but I will say I'm I'm less concerned about inside the motor vehicle because state law does not allow you to smoke cannabis instead of Motor Vehicle so we would be in line with that. [2:08:25] Councilmember Michelle Volk: I okay so then my husband's Theory would be that nobody is allowed to travel down the road and you get to a stop sign and the person next to you's got their window down smoking cigarette they shouldn't be allowed to do that I mean that's he would he would like it to be that restrictive but you gotta box yourself in and Etc. [2:08:43] Councilmember Joshua Lee: so I'm just I think where it's still in and this is the primary user of our Parks or kids it doesn't matter if you're in the parking lot 20 feet away or if you're in the park it's still there and it's not it's providing potential access and level one role modeling wealth for the kids and in the park so I think I'd be more comfortable with the whole park space including the parking lots as opposed to trying to parse that out I think that gets too messy. [2:09:20] Mayor Luke Hellier: I think I'd be more comfortable with the whole park space including the parking lots as opposed to trying to parse that out I think that gets too messy. I figured I'd be the only one no I I totally understand your perspective I mean if I was a smoker I would have been sit I mean I totally get that I just we're trying to be within the park space and I'm assuming this is a model ordinance at other you just have to have signs then that for people to really truly understand that smoking in your car is not allowed. [2:10:05] Justin Miller: that's the way they are the signs say tobacco cream smoking in your college cars is not allowed I think Savage and Burnsville are smoke-free Parks right I know we looked earlier today I mean there's a lot and Prior Lake without the same conversation we are there are more that are smoke-free than allowed yeah okay. [2:10:35] Mayor Luke Hellier: um I'm okay moving forward with this based on the way it's currently written but if if we need to make a change on the vehicles to get a majority vote I'm fine with that too. [2:10:52] Councilmember Joshua Lee: I'm okay with that and I hear I saw what you're saying about the cars but I just I keep thinking so I got my Jeep and I got the doors off and the roof open cigarette in there you know when it's in my car so I I just it just gets more difficult to distinguish you know what does in your car mean I mean sitting in your car but if you got all the windows down. [2:11:13] Councilmember Dan Wolter: I'm sitting on the trunk of my car I can I support it but I'm I'm plenty willing to uh if we were to decide to eliminate the car piece um I I guess I look at it as a designated smoking area you know if you can you know restaurants there's a designated smoking area and I'm like I just cars to me is like a designated smoking area is that a conversation with this one so we'll take this on the Sabbath. [2:11:43] Mayor Luke Hellier: um okay moving on to the last of the three this is the one related to the prohibited operation of cannabis business you had mentioned earlier that it doesn't impact businesses that are already operating? [2:11:58] Justin Miller: it does not impacted businesses that we're selling legal products as of today okay. [2:12:08] Mayor Luke Hellier: um so my other question would be do we have to stay till January of 2025 or can we say if maybe we try to be aggressive with ourselves to try to get a lot of this done by January 1st of 24th and is that can staff come up with some zoning stuff between now and then or do you think that that's too aggressive of a timeline. [2:12:44] Tina Goodroad: yeah I mean the date it's a no later that day oh no later you can go okay. [2:12:55] Mayor Luke Hellier: um I mean my initial misunderstanding I'm glad I thought that this would basically put a pause on any operating of you know the licensing that we're already doing for Edibles for instance so I'm less concerned about that just because of. [2:13:12] Councilmember Joshua Lee: so would it prohibit new like hemp derived lower potency if somebody wanted to all of a sudden get our license and go and start selling at a gas? [2:13:20] Justin Miller: so it wouldn't okay so a little unclear what this truly keeps how does this protect the property buyer from the potential to protect somebody from buying something and then find out they can't have it in that location if we design it differently but as it stands if they don't have a license to the state they already are taking that risk at that moment right exactly yeah but I think the way it's set up is everybody's going to count I don't mean that you know we're not going to just I think my understanding is that you have to have this structure with all of the check boxes which is the control access yada yada yada before you get a license so there's going to be pretty substantial investment Air Force granted because you. [2:14:15] Mayor Luke Hellier: I'll get to you in a minute but so I don't think maybe I'm totally wrong but I don't think you'll be able to you'll have to make some investment without Assurance of getting the license is what it's the way I read the Box checking on getting the license I I saw it as in the conversation earlier verifying it as a way for the city to say we're studying this we're looking at how we want to handle it in terms of zoning in terms of numbers of places um and we'll be ready for that no later than January at 1 20 25 um because yeah I mean somebody has full choice of mine some land and they don't or um a poor investment but the other piece is is this doesn't restrict our current these stuff somebody could come and open a business like that with the full intent of opening something later on once um once the uh once the licensing stuff comes through from the state to me this is a way of telling somebody we aren't 100 sure right now so we're studying this and um we just aren't going to be allowing any of these things to me it was just the way we're at in the process. [2:15:35] Councilmember Dan Wolter: so does that if we do this does that mean no more Edibles new edible places can open or? [2:15:45] Justin Miller: No anything that's legal today to sell can continue to be sold so we already have the license in place for the THC so someone can go through the process the CBD yep sorry and the remedy bar if another remedy bar wanted to open up or another you name it that the selling legal product today they can continue to they can do that because it's derived from happening. [2:16:15] Councilmember Michelle Volk: no I realize that they already existed I'm just a new business in that Arena. [2:16:19] Mayor Luke Hellier: Now the difference is it's effective August one canvas will be legally use it's not legal to sell yet right so I I just don't know why we need this because I I think as a city council we can just say we have a goal that by January of 2020 four that we will have the plan of where everything's going to go Etc and it's not confusing the public and the next article being written that we're not allowing it at all you know I mean that's a lot of confusion with that document it's just to keep it's to protect you the city from somebody coming in and making a decision now and it's their risk it's you know it's their buy everywhere but then we come in and say no we don't think that we want to allow this at the place you bought it then they're going to say well what do I do now I'm I'm stuck with this property. [2:17:15] Mayor Luke Hellier: so I'm gonna go to the audience I know that there's some yeah just state your name and. [2:17:28] Brock Dubrowski: uh Brock dubrowski partner this vote dispensaries Michigan Missouri uh let me ask you a question have you noticed an uptick in marijuana usage in the last year in the city? [2:17:35] Mayor Luke Hellier: uh well I can tell you that the sales from what the business told me is yes they're doing pretty well. [2:17:40] Brock Dubrowski: okay well I don't I don't know if you're aware but you had a fully operating three fully operating dispensaries in the city for the last year I'm talking flower Vape Edibles drinks fully what important so that means you could walk into a head shop in your city in the last year and buy a flower at 90 THC 90 milligrams the last year all that came off the shelves July 1st so that's what you can expect to happen when it's finally legalized it's pretty much what you saw this last year um and I guess uh the reason why I'm attending is I've been in conversations with Luke and I am one of the uh individuals with a business that wants to come into the City and figure out where it's going to be appropriate where it's going to be zoned to make sure that uh obviously a lot of money goes into the investment I think just about every head shop that's currently selling CBD intends on hopefully having that be long-term obviously uh The Hideaway might be a little different they've been in operation for quite a while but uh that's kind of the expectation is the legislator obviously gave us a 327 page bill it's kind of like trying to solve a Rubik's Cube but with that it is based on the Merit system one of the criterias is to um obviously vet um there's a bunch of things that's going to have to be kind of uh read and figured out but one of them is to make sure that when you present your application for a license that you kind of have a pretty strong business plan in place and obviously to prove that is to show a track record that you can successfully run a business so um I guess for any City it's best to be proactive and Center reactive. [2:20:02] Mayor Luke Hellier: any other comments related to the Council I mean where do we want to go in the moratorium feel comfortable with their current timeline? [2:20:10] Councilmember Joshua Lee: I think we need some more tools the toolbox here I don't know if this was your intention but that comment made me think that an oratorium is actually more needed than I thought because we need the time to make sure everyone's in in line does he interpreted correctly I I don't think so no I think it was already here today it was already here everything's been taken off the table for now after he's selling five milligram or less CBD THC product in their stores I don't think you need to be afraid of the big bang big bang boogie it's it's already here it was already here. [2:20:58] Councilmember Joshua Lee: I'm not afraid of the boogeyman I guess I'm more so wanted to make sure that people are not investing in places that will not be um valid locations for dispensaries. [2:21:05] Mayor Luke Hellier: I I think so when you mentioned January uh 2024 what's that give us four months five four months five months yeah I mean um but yeah I mean yeah we might ask for a little bit more time than that. [2:21:28] Councilmember Dan Wolter: my only well my only Point um you might be going on the same train about is you know part of it part of the waiting game is you know this office is supposed to the state office is supposed to get organized um I don't have a lot of confidence that that's going to happen on the timeline that they're saying and one of the things that cities have benefit from is the work that they're supposed to be doing on model ordinances it does not mean that we can't come up with our own but it would certainly be helpful to have some model ordinances from that based on the legislation again remind me that that was one of their first tasks. [2:22:04] Mayor Luke Hellier: basically the restrictions are we can decide zones like a commercial Zone certain footage to daycares and schools and that's basically the amount of it yeah that I think we can do it each work session I guess I'm just trying to figure out I walked away with last month with the attorney saying that we didn't need to do this that we would get there so I I really think it's confusing yeah I think we have this document and I I get that I think part of it for me is uh like we just say tomorrow we're just all you do in the C3 just commercial well then downtown is not it doesn't fit in commercial zonings it's separate Zone and so my point is we have to have some really thoughtful conversation about you just can't say that's gonna only go here because there's clutch I mean that's what that's what the workshops are for yeah. [2:23:05] Councilmember Michelle Volk: Nothing's gonna happen till 2025 but I don't know I just find it a little confusing for. [2:23:18] Councilmember Joshua Lee: I'm just one person so I don't think we need it I think we can work on it and get it done. [2:23:26] Mayor Luke Hellier: and I was talking about because I had that same impression last time that we didn't really need it but I think hearing that it's helpful to those looking to start those businesses but I like your idea of turning up the timeline and Tina's point about that office is kind of chaos right now and it's really just somebody with a website um well I guess that might change I mean we don't I mean on the other side of it is we're not responsible for a business purchasing anything and no and that's the risk that they're going to take and I think it my recommendation if you're listening you're gonna be a business I wouldn't build within a thousand feet of school right or a daycare you know on the stuff that is already enlisted in the Don. [2:24:14] Don Seiler: both uh both times we opened our new business we had to work with the city to modify the Zone anyways okay and it was an afterthought it was clear that the city was open to and wanted a brewery or breweries to open in the city but nothing specifically said like there was there was not any zoned area that had Brew Pub or brewery as as an acceptable use same thing in Inver Grove Heights actually took the ordinance that we that was passed in Lakeville and brought it to their attorney to say make something like this so that we can open Inver Grove growing so if it's your intent to allow that type of business to operate the faster you designate where you want it so it's clear I think is gonna remove barriers from people getting that process rolling. [2:25:05] Brock Dubrowski: yeah I'm with him it's uh anytime you go into a real estate transaction my background is commercial in residential real estate you have an Loi letter of intent and with that obviously you can put as many contingencies as possible one of them obviously being contingent upon the correct Zoning for this establishment I guess really just sort of Expediting this process of figuring out where it needs to be designated uh just makes everything a little a little less convoluted um there there I am still going to come here um it's just um everybody's confused so are we I think if you put a timeline there to have a better designation uh it'll kind of have less confusion for everybody all around including the citizens of this of the city. [2:25:54] Mayor Luke Hellier: so now you say markram is good or you change your mind? [2:26:02] Councilmember Dan Wolter: well no no I think in January of 2024 five months out is you know I get that well let's why don't we do I guess my one thought is we could set this aside I mean the staff obviously has the direction from us to start working on this I mean we already kind of talked about that in June so maybe setting the moratorium aside for now um there's no date certain that we'd have to do the moratorium no we can do it but we can do it every day means you know somebody yeah some transaction could occur and the message is we don't know so hold off until we figure it out we know what the parameters are of the legislation that we can do but we don't know exactly how that's going to spell out. [2:26:55] Tina Goodroad: so we've had JS team helping us with some just base mapping to kind of figure out our starting point because of the possibility of the distance location still not knowing what the council is going to want to do so we can bring that to a future meeting and start from there just to give you a sense of what does that look like could we do those full limitations so we are working on it and what we tell people who call is we don't know so by everywhere right and then that is on any kind of use. [2:27:30] Councilmember Dan Wolter: a follow-up question to that so the one thing that you said that so yeah fully in support of the sooner the better um do you feel confident that you have enough guidance in the statute to be able to do something in January this coming January that will stand once the subcarriage mismanagement? [2:27:52] Tina Goodroad: I mean between us and you know Andrea's office and her team yes yes. [2:28:05] Mayor Luke Hellier: it sounds like instead of the board term aside for now move through with the other two ordinances okay and then conversation on the feet and whatever we should have it next month you know they can lay out what that would look like on a map of where it would be research okay we'll figure it out okay all right very good uh moving on to item seven and eight uh seven items for future discussion it's opportunity if anybody had anything I wanted to note it's a third eyebrow over there Joshua. [2:28:44] Councilmember Joshua Lee: I had I can't think of what I was going to bring up bring it up after committee reports if I remember what it was okay sorry [Laughter] uh sorry we don't we're not it's just for councils oh gotcha yep. [2:28:57] Mayor Luke Hellier: um okay moving on to item number eight then community and City administrator updates so I the only update I had is I attended the dbb meeting last uh week I guess the county had requested some funds back the consensus at the board was that the jpa wouldn't allow the funds to be returned to the county um so we that's where we're at dbb will be dissolved into August I think so we're just and then we're excited to have some sort of a portion of money returned to the city uh when that finally comes through this great Panic Brock how good about it turned out except for the Randy cruise nights oh that was good okay anything else. [2:29:50] Justin Miller: otherwise I'll take a motion to drink real quick oh sorry um Chief Paul sentencing on the email address if you're interested next week just a reply and and then just also a reminder um that next Monday weekly today is a joint meeting on Vision Lakeville with all of the Committees and commissions I believe it's at 6 30. W Chambers. [2:30:23] Mayor Luke Hellier: okay take a motion. [2:30:23] Councilmember Joshua Lee: I um perfect [Music] so much.