[0:50] All [1:02] right, we're going to call the meeting to order. Will the clerk please note those in attendance? All will be noted. Will you please rise and join me in the pledge of allegiance? I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. [1:30] Well, as I look around this room, I'm feeling exceptionally safe tonight with all the first responders. So, welcome to all of our first responders for being here. All right. Um, item two, approval of the minutes. said, entertain a motion to approve the minutes from the regular city council meeting from March 25, 2025. So move second. Motion a second. [1:48] All those in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Motion carries. The minutes are approved. Item three, adoption of the agenda. Are there any changes or corrections to the agenda? Seeing none, I'd entertain a motion to adopt the agenda. Second. Have a motion, a second. All those in favor say I. I. Any opposed? We have an agenda. Item four, consent agenda to entertain a motion to approve the consent agenda. So move second. A motion, a second. All those in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Motion carries. The consent agenda is approved. [2:16] All right. Item five, visitors and presentations. I understand we're going to be swearing in four firefighters tonight. So, Chief, whenever you're ready, mayor, members of council, thank you. We're going to be uh swearing in four firefighters that were all hired in 2024 of last year. All of them have successfully completed their probate pro probationary period in the training program. So, I'm going to call them up and once we get everybody up here. Um, city clerk will read their their oath to them and then we'll have their significant others come up and do the badge pinning. So, first I'll invite up firefighter EMT Jack Cole. Jack has served with the Vades Heights Fire Department, also with our department since last year. And then firefighter paramedic Ryan Brderick. He serves on [3:03] the North St. Fall Fire Department also served on the Woodbury Fire Department. M Health EMS as a paramedic in Baldwin EM Wisconsin EMS. And then firefighter paramedic Annaise. She served on Centennial Fire with her dad who will be coming up to pin her. He still serves on Centennial Fire. She worked at Lake View EMS as a paramedic. SPM Fire as a EMS educator and coordinator and trainer. [3:28] And then firefighter Ella paramedic Ella Divine. She served on Rosal Fire and St. Anthony fire. All right. So, this is everybody. [3:43] Okay. Please raise your right hand and repeat after me. I I Please state your name. do solemnly swear domly swear that I will support I will support the Constitution of the United States Constitution of the United States and the state of Minnesota the state of Minnesota and will discharge and discharge and faithfully execute faithfully execute the duties devolving upon me the duties devolving upon me as a member of the fire department as a member of the fire department for the city City of White Bear Lake. City of White Bear Lake without fear or favor. [4:24] without fear or favor. To the best of my judgment and ability. [4:41] Congratulations. All right. I'll invite Maddie and George to come up. [5:06] [Music] [5:14] [Laughter] Photographic ballet. [5:32] [Applause] Welcome, [5:59] welcome. All right. Congratulations again to our newly sworn in firefighters. Always amazes me whenever we do the the pinning of the badges. It's always tricky. Always fumbles through it, but that's how it goes sometimes. So, glad glad everybody got their badge on. Thank you again, Chief. [6:14] Um, and I think the second uh item goes to U5B donations of the Wiper Lake Lions Club Fire Department of Life program. Chief, thank you, Mayor, City Council members. I'd like to you consider adopting a resolution accepting a donation from the White Bear Lake Lions Club in the amount of $2,300 in support of our new vial of life program. Primary purpose of this program is to make pertinent and vital information readily available to responders in the event of an emergency. The funds will help to cover the cost of vinyl sleeves that the information is stored in. And then I don't know, do you want me to elaborate on what that program is now or later? [6:56] Um, a little more now would would be helpful. Thank you. Sure. I'm going to call on uh Chief Waylander because he's the one that's kind of gotten this going. So, I'll have him come up. I'll I'll pass these. Mayor, members of council, thanks for the opportunity to explain a little bit about the program. Um this is a vi a program for the community of the elderly population and the assisted living facilities within our service area to provide them a very clean organized um document that we can use in construction during an emergency. Um so we're asking them to fill out the form that comes in the pouch and it gives us the pertinent information that we need to help serve them in a time of emergency. Um, it's [7:42] very basic, very easy to fill out, and it helps our crew and also the person that we're there to help with get the proper care that they need. Um, we don't need a lot of information, just kind of the basics, um, name, date of birth, what hospital they would prefer to go to, um, any med allergies, um, and medical history as well. Um, so it's a great program, um, that we're hoping to kick off with the assisted living facilities and the senior facilities within our service area. Any questions? [8:11] Council, any questions? I don't think so. Should I be doing this? I was gonna say, is this for my own person? Thank you. My refrigerator. Thank you. Appreciate it. All right. Well, council, we have a we'll call it a no-brainer resolution before us uh to accept this donation from the Lions Club. I'd entertain a motion to adopt the resolution approving this gift from the Lions Club. Second. A motion to second. Any further discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor say I. I. Any opposed? The motion carries and I will extend my thanks I think for the second council meeting in a row to the Lions Club. I think they gave a donation to the police uh last council meeting and and um we're grateful for your generosity and and help uh supporting our first responders. Thank you again. [8:58] All right. Yes. So everybody can go back and have some treats now. Thank you for all being here. Time for cake. about to feel less safe. Now we have the angry wh I mean citizens. [9:27] Sure. With me? Yeah. Oh, sure. Sure. [9:47] I don't want mine. Do you want yours? Come on, V. Can I do the rabbit ears behind you, Ran? I want yours. [10:02] Give my back to you. can be had better use somewhere else. [10:24] All right. Item 5C, the fire department by annual report. Chief. All right. Thank you, Mayor members of council. here for my B byianual report. Um I'm going to go through some information as to 2024 and then look a little bit into this year as to what we have in in score. All right. So for everybody that might be watching or in the audience just a quick review. I always do this every every presentation. So our department covers the city lake, White Bear Township, Delwood, Birwood, Gem Lake, which is about 35 square miles. So it's a pretty large area. Um, and the population served is 38,000 plus. That that's kind of a rough estimate. Plus, that does not include any visitors or people traveling through the area. We [11:09] currently have 18 full-time firefighter paramedics. And we just hired our first um at least in in this version of the department, our first full-time firefighter EMT, Jeff Ecman, who um many people know because he's been a longtime member of the department. He's been here over a decade. So, we're pretty excited about that. He'll be starting with us at the end of the month. And we currently have 13 part-time firefighters. And then Brian Eichelberg uh is the the gentleman that's been kind of standing near me. Um he left with the rest of the gang. He's my new assistant chief of of training and operations. And so he this is just day two. Um so he doesn't have everything yet to be uh as formal as the rest of us. Our call volume, this is for the last five years. So this is what our call volume is looking like. We had a a [11:56] record high for the department in 2022 of 5283. Over the last couple years, it's tapered off a little bit. Uh which uh the crews are not complaining about because it was pretty hectic for a while. Um but nonetheless, it's slowing down a little bit. I can attribute some of this to um the loss of some frequent flyers and then also the number of times we're being called to assist outside of our city has gone down. It used to be about twice as what it is now. So that is a a positive thing. Um and I'll get more into the numbers here shortly. So this will remain the same as last year. [12:32] Um this hasn't changed. So about 28% of what we do is fire and rescue calls. 72% is what we do is medical calls. So we run a a full advanced life support medical services. Um and that is the majority of what we do. So here's our EMS mutual aid for so our ambulance calls if you will. So we've received uh help 62 times and we've given help 200 times. So we're still um not exactly balanced there. Um but that number has gone come down as far as given pretty significantly. Fire mutual aid. This was a I might regret saying this but it was relatively a slow year for fires for us in our response area. Uh we asked for help 16 times and we helped out 46 [13:19] times. Um, so our neighbors around us were unusually busy. Uh, and we were a little bit slower. This is usually within a few uh a few numbers of each other. So, it's a little more balanced than that normally. Um, but nonetheless, that's that's what it was. Our top five EMS calls, I just create a little pie chart there. So, this again has does not change from year to year. For the last number of years I can remember, this is always the same. So, most common call sick people. Next one is breathing problems and then psychiatric problems, falls and unconscious. And so every every other category drops off pretty significantly after that. And part of that is just because of how they present when the when the call taker at the the communication center enters the [14:04] information, they get basic info and then they send the call. So they drop into those five categories pretty pretty well. I get a lot of thank yous um all the time from the public which I'm obviously proud of and pass on to the crews so that they're aware of that. This one stood out to me so I thought it was worth putting up on the screen. Uh he this gentleman said if it weren't for them I would not be here today. Uh that's pretty profound statement and so very proud of what they do. They work hard. Um they they train hard. They do really really good work. Some demographics that I kind of wanted to point out to everybody. Um so 64% of our patients are over the age of 60. Um and I think we all kind of understand the significance of that. Uh it is estimated that the 65 plus age [14:50] group uh is expected to double from 2024 to 2075. Um so that is going to have an impact on us as our communities across the state continue to to age. Um in 2024 there were Minnesota fire deaths. there were 67 fire deaths overall. Um and 63% of them were 61 years or older. So of the three um related um deaths that have taken place since I've been chief, all of them fit into that category. Um and so there's some common themes across the state as to what's happening. And then the US fire administration uh stated that anybody 65 and over to have 2.3 to over [15:36] 3% times greater risk of dying uh in a fire. So there's a significant risk to our older population. Um not only you know difficulties of aging and illness uh and disease but also with with fires. [15:51] One of the the positive things that we're doing so we are going to start a new medication trial. um regions. Our medical directors are very supportive of us and they um asked us to do a drug trial. And so what this is is acetaminophen, also most people know it as Tylenol. Um and but this isn't like take a couple Tylenol and you hope you feel better. You usually take a couple hundred milligrams. This is a a gram, so a thousand milligrams of Tylenol. Um and the the whole idea to this is an alternative pain control. So, we have a lot of patients that might be in pain, but it doesn't seem like they're in really a lot of pain, but you don't really want to just let them be in pain, but we don't want to use too many narcotics. So, the whole idea is to use [16:38] this um as pain control for patients to try to reduce the amount of use of and use of narcotics. If they have severe pain, this will still they will still use their narcotics. But for those that are kind of in that middle to lower range, they're doing a lot of this in the hospital right now and it's been very successful. And so the amount of people that have injuries or illness that start narcotics and then become addicted to them, the the hope is to try and reduce that through this. We will be the only uh EMS agency in the state doing this at this time. So it's kind of a a nice thing that they came to us and said, "Hey, we'd like you to try this out." And we said, "You bet. Well, we're we're in for that." So, we'll start doing that um at the end of this month and into early May. As far as community [17:25] events go, we we do a lot of them. Uh we had 56 planned events last year, and I'm not going to read all of these, but you're all familiar with them. Uh it's a lot of events. It's a lot of fun. We really enjoy um interacting with the public. Uh a lot of last minute stuff for us like, "Hey, can you be here? Hey, can you drive by? Hey, can you do this?" Uh, and then just random things that we run into as we work within the community. I already talked about the vial of life, so I'm not going to reiterate that. We just started our new citizens fire academy. So, this was something the department did many years ago for quite a while, and we just reinvigorated that. Um, and so we have a a class of students going through right now and we talk about the history of the department, tours of the facilities, the [18:11] apparatus, like an insight in depth into what we do, strategies, tactics, laying hose lines, uh, controlling fire, lots of different hands-on opportunities. So, we're pretty excited to have that back and up and running again. We do a lot of ride alongs. We have uh, regions doctors that ride with us. We have physicians assistants that ride with us. We have uh Century College students, a lot of EMT students. We're starting that this week. [18:35] So, I think we have four or five riding along this week. Um and then citizens that would like to ride with us, we offer that, too. So, um get it. It's been great to have people ride with us. One of the um some of the students that come through the programs are then interested in our department uh and and try to say, "Hey, I liked it there. I like what you do. I like the culture." Um all those things. So, it works out pretty good. We've done a ton of training last year, community CPR classes. We helped out with SER training. Uh we have in-house advanced cardiac life support. So those of you that know Josh Surmac, Josh's been around for a long time. He does a great job. Um he is now a certified trainer, so we used to have to send people out all the time to do this training and now he can do it in-house. Saves us a lot of [19:20] money. We also do handy, which is a pediatric emergency training inhouse. Um we've um hosted a bunch of different classes for different agencies and we're actually doing firefighter 102, Ramsey County firefighter 102 training tonight at the south station and on Thursday night and then helped out with the Ramsey County SWAT team. Also, as far as interdep department training, uh we helped do with the police department some CPR and AED training and then how to deliver Narcan when it's appropriate and bleeding control. Uh and that was a lot of fun to interact with everybody. [19:54] And then last year we did all citywide fire safety, evacuation, severe weather, and medical emergency training. So, we're helping to helping everybody out whenever we can. We also take care of all the city's AEDs, our 27 units that the city owns throughout different buildings. Um, and we check them, maintain them. Same with the fire extinguishers and then different medical supplies. So, one of the things that has become very prominent, uh, we always get brush fires in the spring. Uh but these are two pictures that have been taken within the last month. Uh the picture on the right is of a fire in northern Shore View that we helped out with and you can see how large that fire is. These fires because of the dry conditions are burning hotter and faster than before [20:39] and they are quickly getting out of control. Um and that um one of the the reasons it's it's tiled wildland urban interface is because oftent times with the suburbs and where we live there's houses kind of here and there or developments here and there and if we are faced with the wrong conditions uh and the winds blowing the wrong direction they can quickly get into structures u and we've we have not seen the the how rapidly they grow before this year. Uh last year was predicted to be like this and then if you remember it started raining and it never stopped for like a month. So it kind of went away pretty quickly. It's not happening this year. So we are seeing this the p the other picture on the left uh was just last week on Tuesday a week ago Tuesday [21:24] and this was um behind the Audi dealership uh in Maplewood and this is about a 40 acre fire and you can see the flames there. The flames are about 30 to 5 ft high, wind driven and snowing at the same time, by the way. Um, and remember, it had snowed just 2 days prior to that. Um, and so it gives you some idea what that's like. So, we we have the equipment to deal with this, but it is just something we're concerned about because it won't take much for it to get into a housing development um, under the wrong conditions. Another thing we're experiencing um, this year is we're going to be there there's a a switch. We've had this national fire incident reporting system which has been around forever. Uh council member Angstrand this is a system he worked on for 30 years. Uh and they are now [22:12] switching to what's called the national emergency response system which endear us. Well how why is this important? Two things. One we're going to have to do do a lot of work to redo our records management system to make all this work but also we're going to have real time data that they'll collect and we can get feedback on all the time. Uh and so it's going to be very beneficial not only for us but across the state and across the nation. And if the events start to happen uh like happening out in LA or other big wildfires, they'll be able to see what's going on right away because of the call volume spike in an area and they can start sending state and federal resources to those areas in a faster basis. So it's kind of neat uh that they're doing this. That's what I have for you tonight. Any questions of me? [22:58] Thank you, Chief Council. Any questions? Council member Edbert. Thank you, Mayor Chief. We talked a little bit about the mutual aid calls and particularly so we didn't as is traditional, we didn't call in aid as often as we were called out to provide aid, but the number of times that we've been called out has been decreasing from high that we had two three years ago. We had conversation about that. Can you give any insight into what's going on that's reducing that? Are other agencies better equipped? Are they having better years? [23:36] It's like how do we get a sense of what we're going to be called on as partners to our um to our neighboring communities? What and how should we think about that in terms of our staffing, in terms of the equipment that we need to keep ready to be able to respond, etc., etc. Sure. [23:54] Um, so, Mayor, Council Member Edwards, the a lot of that has to do with other services staffing, particularly the private services that we assist. Um, and their staffing got better. Uh, it seems as though lately it might have taken another downturn because we're starting to go on more of them again. Um, and so it's kind of that eb and flow of of how well people are staffed that we help out with, uh, if you will, and and that's what determines that. In terms of equipment, it hasn't been a significant enough drop yet to really change our operations. Um, as far as what we have, you know, I've been very diligent about keeping what we need, uh, and and keeping it at that level. Um, so it isn't we would have to have a very [24:41] significant drop off for me to come back and say we don't need that. Um, because I I was very thoughtful in in in what we have and operationally what we need. Okay. Thank you, Council Member Walsh. Uh, thank you, Mr. [24:57] Mayor. So, Chief, the the acetaminophene uh change, I guess I'm I'm some explanation on that. We're first on the scene. We're helping if there's if there's a real problem in pain, they're at the hospital pretty quick. How much do we are we distributing narcotics? I guess that surprised me a little bit to think that that we're we're distributing narcotics at any level to to use a replacement. [25:20] Yes. So, you know, St. John, so Mayor Council Walsh, the St. John's Hospital is relatively close to us, but any of the other hospitals are a bit of a drive. Um, and if we're with the patient and it's not so critical that we have to pick them up and go right away, uh, you know, we spend a not a long time, but a few minutes with them and kind of so we can get these things kind of going and then that medication starts to go in while we're traveling to the hospital so we get it in sooner. Uh, the narcotics, I can't give you exactly the number of narcotics we give, but it it's not uncommon even for chest pain patients or broken bones or those types of things that we give narcotics. So, it isn't a like a astronomical amount. It's just a different approach to try and curb the [26:06] epidemic that we've all seen. Thanks, council. Any other questions for the chief? All right, Chief. Thank you again for the report. Thank you very much. All right. Item 5D, Arbor Day proclamation. That falls to me. [26:34] Whereas the city of White Bear Lake has historically been committed to maintaining the urban forests and city parks and throughout the city by adding to and replacing its valuable tree stock. Whereas the city annually confirms its commitment to the urban forest by promoting public awareness and forestry issues through tree planting projects, tree pruning and maintenance seminars, invasive species control projects, and other educational opportunities. Whereas the city is celebrating its 37th year of being a tree city as part of the Tree City USA program, which was founded in 1976 to celebrate towns and cities committed to growing their urban canopy and has helped more than 3,500 communities across the country build out their urban forests. [27:17] Whereas the city recognizes Arbor Day as an annual occasion during which the community pauses to recognize the importance of trees and their impact on our environment and daily lives and encourages public awareness of urban forestry issues. Whereas trees in our city increase property values, enhance the economic vitality and beauty of our community and park system. Whereas trees are a source of joy and spiritual renewal. And whereas the mayor and city council desire to extend their support for and recognition of the importance of trees within our city. Now therefore, I Dan Lewis, mayor of the city of White Bear Lake, do hereby proclaim May 15, 2025 as Arbor Day in White Bear Lake, and with my fellow members of the city council, the park board, and city staff [28:04] do hereby call upon all White Bear Lake residents to participate in the annual Arbor Day observance. All right. And with that, before I announce the next issue, which we know is on the agenda, no, that wasn't an awkward scheduling issue. I think the debate that we're going to have dovetales nicely into that. We're going to have a public conversation about four trees that are very, very important to many people. And regardless of which way the council ultimately decides on what we do at the parking lot, um if and I won't pre-ordain it because I look forward to the discussion. If we end up cutting them down, that doesn't detract at all or make us an anti-tree city. There are lots of practical considerations that the council is going to take under [28:50] advisement. So if if uh if nothing else, I think this is a testament to our commitment to trees in the city. And these four particular trees are important. We're going to talk about it. Um, but regardless of that, uh, we're going to continue to be a treeloving city and and, uh, we'll support those efforts and we look forward to this year's Arbor Day. So, with that, item 6A, parking lot reconstruction at Fifth Street and Banning Avenue. Mr. CPY, uh, mayor, members of the council, I'll go through a brief presentation, just kind of, uh, recap the last few meetings and where we're at in this project. Um, so at our uh March 11th meeting, council ordered plans and specifications for uh four downtown parking lots to be [29:35] reconstructed uh that were identified within the uh uh mobility and parking study recently completed um late last year. Um then following that meeting at its uh March 25th meeting, council made a motion uh to hold a public hearing to accept public comment regarding potential removal of four mature uh bur oak trees uh to allow for reconfiguration of the fifth street and Banning Avenue lot uh that would uh allow for the addition of approximately 15 uh parking stalls. So um kind of rehashing the presentation that I gave at the last meeting but focusing on lot two which is the fifth street and banning lot. Um again full reconstruction um just due to the payment condition and the curbing um [30:21] drainage in the uh parking lot. Um also looked at or the uh um mobility and parking study recommended looking at uh as a potential location for adding additional parking stalls. Um, so the lot we are talking about again showing up on the map is at the corner of Fifth and Banning uh behind the hardware store. Currently has 67 uh parking stalls. Uh you can see on the east side of the lot has a uh large grass area and that's where uh three of the trees reside. The other one adjacent to the hardware store building. Uh under the uh proposed conditions um the uh that the uh mobility and parking study looked at uh we could add approximately uh 15 additional stalls, the area shaded off [31:08] in the uh red would be the uh uh grass area currently that would be removed along with the oak trees um to allow for that reconfiguration, additional parking stalls. Uh currently staff is working on some additional layouts. This was one that was kind of um conceptual that was done at the kind of a very high level with the uh study. Uh we have an engine engineering firm looking at multiple different options. Uh we hope to have those available shortly, but I'm looking to see if there's uh different configurations that uh provide any additional stalls or uh amenities to the uh parking lot. [31:51] Um the trees that are in question um the three that are on the uh left side of the screen, those are the ones that are in the larger uh grass median area. Um that would provide the majority of the additional parking stalls. Uh we recently had a uh with the EAC commission as well as city staff had had Rainbow Tree Care come out and take a look at the health of the trees. The three that are in the larger area are generally in in good health. they had been budding quite well last year um and they believe they are alive generally healthy obviously susceptible if uh you know through construction or other diseases past things like that so something we would take care of as the mayor had mentioned all our trees we we care about our canopy and would watch [32:38] those kind of things anyways um the tree on the uh shown on the right side is the one closest to the uh hardware store um that one rainbow tree care said is generally in decline line as you can kind of see in the picture. And if you go out and visit the site, you can kind of see on the right hand of the photo, you can see kind of the dead uh um the branches dying off. Uh they're uh pretty significant in size. They keep falling down. So um definitely in decline. Um they can't give an estimate of how long it would last, but uh definitely in uh a state of decline. likely they said likely due to the uh small size of the grass meeting area that that one resides in and h and and has done so for quite some [33:24] time. Um so just kind of rehash the project schedule. Um, so again, at the March 11th meeting, council had order plans and specifications. Uh, I'd mentioned in my presentation that we are reviewing preliminary layouts, uh, uh, to see what the best option would be based on council direction and see what we could add for parking if the trees were removed. Um and then based on um those layouts as well as any feedback tonight um potentially approved plansations at our May 27th meeting and then uh kind of skipping through some of the details but moving to a uh construction of uh early August following the uh conclusion of Marketfest and then uh to be completed by kind of freeze up I'll call it. So [34:10] that's the general project schedule. Um, so tonight based on council direction, uh, recommend that you hold the public hearing and use that, uh, testimony during future project decision points. Thank you, Mr. Copy. Um, we at this time we will hold the public hearing. I have 20 or so names on my list. Um, so if I don't call your name, we'll work through the list first and then if your name isn't called and you still want to speak, just please come up in an orderly fashion. [34:41] Um, we're going to we're going to say 2 to 3 minutes given the number that we have. Try and be as close as that as you can. I want to give everyone a chance to to be heard on this. And I'm going to read addresses off and spare everyone uh totally butchering your various last names. So, with that, uh, we'll hear first from 233 4th Street. And as you come up, if you wouldn't mind just stating your name and address again for the record, that would be great. Thank Yes. Thank you, mayor, council members. I'm Cheryl Bolstad. I live at 23034 Street. I've lived here for 30 years. I'm also a member of the Environmental Advisory Commission. Uh there are a few of us here tonight. At the last council meeting, the question was posed, "Mature trees are cut every day. What is special [35:27] about these trees?" I'm going to tell you. In 2019, the city worked with a group of senior students from the envir from the University of Minnesota and the environmental science program. The students took cores from two of these bur oak trees and determined that they would now be about 150 years old. That means the trees were about 45 years old when the city was founded in 1921. An excerpt from the students report reads, "We recommend keeping the burr oak trees within the parking lot due to their age and historic significance to the city. In the green space under the oak trees, we recommend adding educational signage to inform community members of the storm water management techniques being used by the city to improve water quality. It is important that the residents of White Bear Lake recognize and appreciate this history of the burr oak trees. In 2021, [36:13] the New York Times reviewed a book by Professor Doug Talamy from the University of Delaware called The Nature of Oaks: The Rich Ecology of our Most Essential Native Trees. He states that oaks are long lived trees that support more life forms than any other tree in North America and provide food and protection for birds as well as countless insects and spiders and an enormous diversity of species. A large oak tree can consume about a 100 gallons of water a day. And I wonder if the city has plans if they remove the trees how to mitigate all the water that will collect in the rainstorm below these trees. Oaks can live upwards of 300 years. So our trees have many decades left to live. If any of you are around in the late 90s, if you were here, you may recall that the city had the trees pruned and they were vastly overp pruned to the point where even city staff [36:58] wondered if they would leaf out the following spring. But they did. They survived. And you can still see stumps up in the tree canopy. If you're wondering, the trees don't have a nice round canopy. That's because they were overly pruned in the 1990s. Uh we want to note with appreciation that the designers of the current parking lot left intact a sufficient green space around the three central trees to promote healthy roots and water infiltration. Uh we hope that the city will not only preserve the trees, but also the green space around the trees to prevent damaging the tree roots. We are aware that your concern is sufficient parking in the downtown area. [37:31] The downtown parking mobility study concludes that we have a perception of a parking problem. We currently have a sufficient amount of parking if folks are willing to walk a block or two to their destination. The report shows that the downtown core on the east side of Highway 61 currently has 862 parking stalls. If all of the proposed changes are made, but we keep the oak trees, page 53 of the report shows we would lose 10 parking stalls, which is only 1% of total parking stalls. We know the council would prefer net zero loss of parking stalls, but 1% is pretty close to zero, and it seems a small price to pay for preserving these trees. Let's not make the short-sighted option of removing these trees, these important trees, to achieve a questionable goal of not losing 1% of our parking stalls. [38:14] Lastly, seeing as the city has tagged over 2,000 ash trees for removal, and as a tree city, we should be reserve preserving every healthy mature tree possible. Thank you. Thank you. [Applause] [38:33] call the next name. It's not that I don't appreciate the passion, but it just adds more time and I want to get through everybody. So, if you could please hold your applause, including if someone comes up and wants to cut them down or you support that, regardless of who they say, if we could do that, that would be great. Thank you. All right. 4887 Stewart Avenue. [38:58] Good evening. My name is Dr. Anne Fr, 4887 Stewart Avenue. I have lived here for 16 years in Ward 2. I'm here to speak for the downtown White Bear Lake trees. [39:14] I'm very disappointed that the parking renovation included the destruction of these downtown trees. I beg you to be their protectors. They are part of our community. They remind us of our better selves. They fill us with joy. They're right now giving space in their branches for nesting birds. [39:44] bees, other insects that even in very aging trees that seem to have no life, they have plenty of life. Please do everything you can to protect these trees. They are all we have. They cannot be replaced. Thank you. Thank you. [40:12] All right. 1409 John Quill Lane. That's okay. Hello, my name is Linda Henry and I'm at 1409 Jonquil Lane. I was born and raised in White Bear Lake and I came back after 20 years of wandering around and raised my children here. So, I've been here for about twothirds of my life. And I didn't come back here because I love the pavement and I love the parking lots. I came here because I love the community and I love the joy of the trees and the love and respect for nature. Cutting down these trees and I'm I'm advocating in particular for those three healthy trees. We can't undo it. Once they're down, they're down and the pavement is [40:57] laid and it's done. Our tree canopy in White Bear Lake, and this is according to the US Forest Service, um has an economic benefit of $1,42,000 every year. That's the entire White Bear Canopy. Half of million of that is in carbon dioxide uptake and $216,000 is in storm water mitigation. [41:23] And the I think the environmental study um discussed the priority of the shade tree planting, the priority of keeping our shade trees. And if you saw that picture um that can provide shade and those trees are 150 years old. Burr oaks can grow to be 2 to 300 years old or even 400 years old. So they're middle-aged. They're younger than I am. [41:51] In 2075, 50 years from now, will we want our children to be grateful for a couple of extra parking spaces, or are we going to be hoping that they're taking their children to see these trees? We don't even know what the transportation is going to be like in 50 years when these trees are still standing. If they stay healthy, we may not be using parking lots as much. We likely won't be. And what is the hurry? I heard something somebody quoted as saying, "We've been having this conversation for a long time. We need to move on." No, I just don't I I don't think that that is the way we should be looking at it. Whose priority is [42:36] it to get rid of these trees in this town that so cherishes trees apparently? And what is the incentive for getting rid of these trees? And how does that balance out? And I think mo most important to me is what is our legacy? Do we want to be able to take our children to a plaque on a parking lot stall and say I did this or do we want to preserve those trees for future generations and so that we can breathe because trees help us breathe and stay healthy. And I just really call on all of you to please consider saving these trees. Thank you. [43:16] Thank you. 4292 [43:29] Oakme Ralph Tilma 4294 Oakme Lane. Please reconsider removing the oak trees in the parking lot at Fifth and Banning. I observed the lot at 3:30 p.m. this afternoon. I went over there and looked at the lot and looked at the number of cars in the lot. There was parking available. Then I went out on Banning Avenue and looked at the street. On the west side of Banning Avenue, next to this parking lot, there wasn't a single car parked on the street. Not one. It appears a loss of these trees won't serve a very big parking purpose. [44:12] at least not when I saw it. It will decrease the unique qualities of downtown White Bear Lake. As you know, trees clear carbon dioxide from the air and produce oxygen. What per what person wants to remove this from our neighborhood? Trees are decreasing in white bear account insects and disease. [44:37] Trees are removed around strip malls just so people can see the buildings. They are gone from they more are gone from development. April 22nd is Earth Day and the 25th is Arbor Day. Is White Bear Lake going to celebrate this by cutting down century old trees? And for what? A parking lot? Let's tie yellow ribbons on these trees and keep them. Protect trees and provide for our future. And one other thing I want to mention is if somebody has a big pension to swing a chainsaw, there's plenty of buckthorn out [45:22] [Laughter] there. Thank you. 59 59 could be 5414 eB that Thank you for letting me have time. Um, I'll make it really quick. Some of you received an email I sent because I Can you state your name and address for us? [45:55] Oh, sorry. Beth Artner. I'm at 5414 East Bald Eagle Boulevard. I live in the township. I hope you don't mind. Um, but I do I've lived here for almost 50 years. And I do love downtown. And what I did do is I wanted to find out is there something we could do to fix this? And it turns out we've got a lot of parking that's never used. I went over to the bank. The whole parking lot on the east side of the bank is generally unused. You've got lots of space in the uh library. There was tons of space at CVS. And I was wondering if you could actually work out a deal because I talked to some of the merchants and they said one of the biggest issues they had was other pe other merchants employees were parking in these prime spots and they used to like it when you had traffic enforcement [46:42] coming around chalking tires and writing tickets. And I was surprised that they actually said that. So anyways, I would like to speak up for the trees and I think we have opportunities just for the 15 spaces. We don't need them because like Ralph and some of the other people have come down during busy times to see if there's parking issues and there really isn't. I mean, you can always find a spot except at Marketfest, but you know, could we talk to the bank? Cuz they've got signs up that say that you'll be towed. Why? [47:13] There's nobody there. Same with CVS. I mean, it's like the UPS guy, he pulls up, right? He like crosses like five spots. So, there's plenty of other parking and I hope you would reconsider that and maybe we could make arrangements with some of the merchants. [47:28] But those are my suggestions and thank you for hearing that. Thank you. 5294 Bald Eagle AB East. [Music] Mayor, mayor and council members, uh, my name is Tim David, 5294 Baldigo Boulevard East. Um, and yes, while I live literally on the other side of the tracks in White Bear Township, I have been shopping in downtown White Bear Lake for about 55 plus years. Um, and I support saving the large oak trees in the parking lot near Ace Hardware. As a note, I led the group that stopped the Met Council from bringing 178 buses into our downtown every business day. And I mentioned that [48:15] because one of the biggest messages was we did not want the Met Council to damage the historic small town feel of our downtown White Bear Lake. These large oaks are part of that historic small town feel. These oaks quirkus macro carpas are known as heritage trees. Uh as everybody has mentioned, I also estimate they are 150 years old. And this this species has a typical lifespan of up to 250 years. Because of their size, their age, their importance to our community, these trees are part of the heritage of our community. The tree canopy they provide is important to our historic small town feel. And there are very few of these [49:00] heritage trees left in our downtown area. And in case and in case folks think this is just an esoteric intangible points that people are talking about, here are some tangibles. The Arbor Foundation has what they call a tree benefit calculator and this calculator was created by Davy Tree. So Davy Tree is one of the largest tree removal companies in the country and they recognize the tangible value of a tree. A bur oak with a diameter of 24 in over a one-year period will retain 3,267 gallons of storm water runoff. It will conserve 296 kilwatt hours of electricity that would be needed for cooling or heating. It will remove [49:48] 1,252 pounds of carbon from the atmosphere among other tangible benefits. With that said, I also want to note that directly across the street from this lot, there exists 61 parking spots, of which approximately 30 are always open and unused during any given business day directly across the street on the north side of that parking lot. Early in this process, I know it was stated that the city did not have a parking problem. [50:21] It is really a problem of how parking is being used, who is using it, and how it can be better managed. To think that the city, I apologize, but can't be more creative in finding a solution than cutting down these these oaks uh would be embarrassing for Tree City USA. Thank you. [50:42] Thank [Music] you. Right. 2329 Fifth A or Fifth Street rather. [50:57] And my name is Matt Keequley, 2329 Fifth Street, Fifth and Johnson pretty much for if you don't know that. Um, first of all, I'd like to thank this council and especially thanks to council member um, West for creating this opportunity for this open forum. I'm here tonight to speak on behalf of the trees. I'm quite frankly appalled that rem that removing 450 year old trees to gain 15 parking spaces is even being considered. These mature trees are part of the beauty and charm of this community and the downtown area. [51:38] The city's environmental advisory commission has sent the council two letters regarding both the treere's benefits and that commission's concern regarding their removal. This is an environmental issue and that commission's opinions needs to be strongly respected and considered. [51:58] Mayor, you have stated that you support taking the trees down and are confident that they will be replaced with smaller trees in other areas of the community. It would take 150 years to replace these trees and your your confidence gives me no comfort. Placing new trees in other areas does not replace the beauty of these trees, nor does it enhance the small town character of our downtown area. [52:27] Trees filter the air we breathe and nowhere is this needed more than in downtown areas. I often use the lot in question and I've rarely needed to divert um to on street parking. When I did, street parking was always available. [52:46] I've made a point the last couple weeks of driving past this lot um every every day of the week at various times of day and always there were vacant parking spaces. Please save the trees. Thank Thank you. [53:10] 4345 Whitaker Court. [53:18] Good evening, Mr. Mayor, city council members, and fellow citizens. My name is Sheri Smith. I'm a 32-year resident of White Bear Lake and a accidental activist, a passionate environmental activist. [53:38] I'm a founding board member of the Neighborhood Concerned Citizens Group who stood up to an extremely bad corporate neighbor. A company who polluted the air, water, and soil in the White Bear Lake area for decades. That company ultimately declared bankruptcy, was sold to an affiliate of a private investment firm, and we now sincerely hope the issue of outofbounds pollution in our area is forever behind us. [54:07] As part of courtordered reparations for the environmental damage suffered by our community, the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency ordered the responsible company to plant hundreds of new trees in the White Bear Lake area. Hundreds of new trees. [54:27] A strong and simple reason I I'm sorry, a s a strong and simple lesson that I learned as part of the uh neighborhood concerned citizens group has been this. It's incumbent upon all of us to speak up and loudly if something is wrong. I am so proud to be one of the citizens in our area who stood up and spoke loudly. [54:50] So very proud of the difference we made in White Bear Lake and in the entire state of Minnesota as together we successfully drew necessary attention to the unacceptable situation and then later passed uh the first tce ban in the United States. Tonight I have to speak again to register my objections to the planned removal of these beautiful mature and healthy trees as part of the downtown parking lot projects. I'm not a scientist, but I understand and value the expert opinions of those who are. Did you know? All right. I I wasn't going to keep this in because everybody else has already said these things and I [55:35] didn't know they were going to, but I maybe redundancy is important in this case. I did not know that the Arbor Day Foundation says that in one year a single mature tree can actually absorb over 48 pounds of carbon mon carbon dioxide while concurrently releasing oxygen. I didn't know that. And I I did know that plants and trees improve the air we breathe, but I didn't know those compelling and uh impressive statistics. [56:07] I just knew I've always thought trees are beautiful and at times kind of miraculous. From a non-science from my non-science perspective, trees provide beauty, provide habitats for birds and other wildlife, encourage and protect plant growth, provide energy, an energy break through cooling shade in the summer and helping to keep structures a bit warmer in the winter through natural windbreak. Any realer will tell you that mature trees increase home values. And I would absolutely suggest tonight trees increase the value in our community just as the lakes do. I recognize how fortunate we are to have fortunate and rare it is for us to [56:54] have a thriving downtown area and I I know that the issue before the council is in no way comparable to what happened with water gremlin. With those acknowledgments, I believe there must be another solution to improving the parking problem. A solution that does not include the removal of perfectly healthy trees. Trees that provide so much good by enriching health and the beauty in our environment. A charming healthy environment that has drawn all of us to this city where we proudly call home. I'm respectfully asking the council uh to let the let the trees stand. Find a different solution and to add parking without destroying these trees. trees that have been standing [57:39] long before I was born and will stand long after I'm gone if you make the right decision to keep these healthy, beautiful trees a vibrant part of our natural beauty. Thank you. Thank you. [57:54] 2291 Fourth Street. [58:02] Hello. Good evening. Thanks for listening to us. I have shortened my speech because my fellow residents are very well spoken. Um, I am Karina Morse. I live at 2291 Fourth Street and I've lived in the White Bear Lake area for 30 years. The preservation of these oak trees should take precedence over short-term development plans that have negative impacts to our town and environment. I live in and go visit small towns because of the beautiful walking opportunities and the scenery around me. I don't think we need to create 15 more spots for people. They need to walk around. That's why we go to cute towns like White Bear Lake. People, um, thank you. I just want to thank you. I shortened this. Thank you for your time and consideration. I hope the council will take this opportunity to demonstrate leadership in [58:48] preserving our environment for our future generations. Thank you so much. Thank you. 4984 Stewart A. [59:12] Good evening, mayor, council members. Lori Hughes, 4984 Stewart. I'll be brief. Um the parking mobility study that the city did recently several times states that there is no parking shortage. There is a perception of a parking problem. There isn't an actual parking problem. So why would we spend money to reconfigure this parking lot? And why would we cut trees to fix a problem that doesn't exist? I would much rather see the city keep the trees and spend money on some signage to communicate with people who are visiting that they can park on city streets that they can park like going further into [59:58] the neighborhoods. There's always plenty of parking on neighborhood streets. Um, I would really appreciate it if the city council could keep the trees, protect them, protect the green space that they're in so that we don't have any um, construction damage to them when the parking lot gets resurfaced. Thank you. Thank you. [1:00:26] 2410 Hillside Road. [1:00:36] My name is Gary Shreer. Uh thanks to the mayor and uh council members for uh letting us speak tonight. Um I've lived in G I live at 2410 uh Hillside Road in south of here. Uh lived in White Bear Lake for over 40 years and I'm also a member of the White Bear Lakes Envirmental Advisory Commission. [1:00:59] uh thanks for holding this hearing together to hearing together input on the p on the public uh concerns with the with the oak trees and as stated by uh previous speakers there have been numerous reasons for not removing the oak trees. I have a few few additional comments. First um my understanding is that that parking lot uh where the oak trees are located was constructed about 40 or 50 years ago. Uh the architect who designed it told me personally he designed it with the intent of keeping the trees. Uh at that time the trees were valued by the city and that doesn't seem to be the case right now. Second, keeping the lake clean is important. Storm water treatment by installing rain gardens and other infiltration designs help improve [1:01:45] the water quality of White Bear Lake. For example, we have installed these uh water improvement, water quality improvements like rain gardens and so on and neighborhoods around downtown by the boat works along Southshore Boulevard. Unfortunately, the downtown area has few areas where rainwater can soak into the ground instead of flowing into storm drains. Removing the trees is only going to make things worse and putting up imperous uh surfaces there. Additionally, uh, has the city considered implementing storm water treatment in the designs of the parking lots and streets to mitigate the direct discharge of storm water into the lake? Just just another comment on this, the whole parking lot thing. Uh, [1:02:31] finally, has the city considered other options for addressing parking issues such as a two-hour time limit on weekends or requiring employees not to occupy prime stalls near the nearest businesses or even maybe parking meters um could be u discussed. Anyway, u thank you for your time and for those folks who are uh interested in cutting buckthornne, we have an event in the fall. We certainly would like you to help us down in Lakewood Hills. We we cut up about 100 yards of puckthornne and got plenty more to cut. So, please help us out. Thanks. Thank you. [1:03:16] Uh 5210. What does that say? 5210 Beaver Street. I don't didn't know we had a Beaver Street, but this one I can pronounce. Suzanne Ryan struck out twice. An amen address. [1:03:38] All right, we're going to keep moving on. If that person wants to speak after, please do. 3756 OJ [1:03:51] A mayor c members of council. My name is Bonnie Greenleaf and I live at 3756 OJ Avenue. I'm also a member of the environmental ad advisory commission. Um I don't believe this has to be an all or nothing situation, meaning we have to cut down all the trees or we're going to lose parking spaces. And um I so I truly believe that there's room for refinements and I was going to ask that we um direct the consultant to look at other alternatives, but I was thrilled to hear that um they're already looking at alternatives and so hopefully they can spare the buro and maximize the parking spaces. Um the university students a few years ago measured the trees to be a total of 129 caliber inches. And so it [1:04:38] would take a massive amount of one or two inch saplings to replace that amount of tree. There's a those they're huge trees. I also had a list of in general um the benefits of urban trees, but a lot of it has already been mentioned, so I'll just leave it with this one. Um urban trees aid businesses. Marketing studies consistently show businesses on treecape tree streets show higher income streams that residents will drive farther and linger longer in business districts with large shade trees, particularly in summer and on hot days. [1:05:13] Thank you. 4533 Oakleaf Drive. [1:05:25] Hello, my name is Andrea Morzik. I live at 4533 Oakleaf Drive in Vades. Um, I'm from Vadness, but I love your downtown. For the past few years, I've visited downtown Whitebear about two times a week. I've never had a problem finding a parking spot, no matter day of the week, time of day, including in this exact parking lot. Um, when I told my kids why I was heading out tonight, they had some really big feelings. It was so black and white to them. And it made me think about a sentiment that I've heard, which is to live in a way that makes your 8-year-old self and your 88-year-old [1:06:12] self proud. So, please for 20 seconds indulge me and close your eyes or think in your mind's eye of yourself as an eight-year-old playing in the grass, playing under trees. Just being an 8-year-old. [1:06:44] Now, how would that child feel if they learned that you grew up to be someone who would cut down these century old but still young and healthy trees? Please bear with me again and imagine yourself at 88 looking back on your life. What is the legacy that you want to have left behind? [1:07:14] Thank you. Thank you. 2128 Burke Street. [1:07:32] Good evening. My name is Jeff Luxford. I live at 2128 Birch Street. I am also a member of the environmental advisory commission and occasionally very infrequently a letter to the editor, writer, submitter to the White Bear Press. I appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation with you. Um, I don't know individually any of you. I don't know how you feel on this particular issue, but it is important to a large number of people. [1:07:58] Uh considering the SE downtown mobility parking report, uh it was found that both the ACE lot and on street parking north and east of the said lot were below capacity, defined as 93% spots occupied during the parking census. Uh SE recommended safety improvements including curb extensions or bumpouts at a dozen points that would cause the loss of 11 on street parking spots, which is a large reason why we're having this conversation. [1:08:27] I would like to point out that five of those spaces would be lost further away from the downtown commercial core than the ACE parking lot. So in an area that is already underutilized, you're trying to compensate by adding more spaces for even further out parking spots that would be lost. So I would ask that they not be considered as spaces lost in the sense that you would need to balance them with gains elsewhere. Uh further the bumpouts I do not feel that they are particularly necessary in along banning where there are stop signs every single block parking on both sides of the street and traffic is already moving at a slow rate. I would instead like to see crosswalks be made more visible stylized perhaps white bears across instead of [1:09:13] just boring white rectangles. I'd like to take a moment to speak for the fourth tree, the loner out in the distance. Um, it's been mentioned both by Rainbow, the gentleman that came out to look at them, and in other places that it is in a state of decline. Uh, we live in a day and age where you can go to Google Maps and look back at picture from 2013 and see that it is visually quite similar to its state today, 12 years. I don't think that it is declining at any appreciable rapid rate and I would encourage you to consider not automatically getting rid of that one. I would ask that all four of them [1:09:58] be be maintained and in the future I would like to see this upcoming construction activity turn into a positive thing where the city could establish a micro park around these three trees. Remove the turf grass and instead plant something that doesn't require mowing so Andy and his crew don't have to worry about coming out to a parking lot and trimming grass. Uh the green space could be an anchor to the north end of downtown, the east side of Highway 61, giving people a place to meet, sit, and relax in a bit of green space. [1:10:35] It would allow the opportunity to add some native planting, some pollinator friendly plants and create an oasis on the north end, perhaps leading to people parking further north and using these under underutilized spaces while also visiting downtown and doing their shopping. Uh would like to say thank you again for letting us have this conversation. Thank you for everyone else showing up, whether it's for homework or for just wanting to wanting to come out and uh rattle a cage. [1:11:09] Thank you. Uh 4722 Wood Avenue. Good evening, mayor and city council. Thank you for your service and thank you for allowing me to speak tonight and thank you for listening. Uh my name is Ralph Flobergore and I live at 4722 Wood Avenue uh with my wife and two kids. I'm here to speak on behalf of the trees and also on behalf of my children who are 14 and 10 and off at fun activities. Um I ask you tonight to please not cut them down. Uh these magnificent oaks are not only extraordinary extraordinarily beautiful but they give character and a sense of maturity and a sense of belonging to the community um to all of us. They offer shade, vibrant colors, [1:11:55] and life-giving air. Many of these things everyone already said, but we are stewards of these majestic wonders, and it would be a shame to cut them down for any reason, especially for a few parking spaces. What a loss that would be to the whole community. I can't tell you how many times I've looked at those old oaks and felt a profound sense of gratitude as I drive by or walk by. I just ask that you'd please keep them around. Uh, the trees are obviously loved by many, including my kids and their friends, my wife and I, my in-laws, and many of my neighbors. They're priceless. We are their stewards. Let's preserve them for the next generations. Thank you. Thank you. [1:12:33] 1652 9th Street. [1:12:42] Hello, Mayor and City Council members. I'm Ryan Limbbeg at 1652 9inth Street right by Podman Park. My son has been a part of the White Bear Lake school system for many years now, having gone to Lincoln from kindergarten to fifth grade and is currently a sixth grader at Central Middle School. White Lakes's most impressive and endearing quality and its biggest strength is its sense of community. [1:13:10] These century trees are part and have always been part of the community. I moved here from Woodberry and Woodberry has a lot of parking spots. God bless Woodberry, but it doesn't hold a candle to White Bear Lakes unique sense of community. Um, everyone here has brought up so many great points, so I'm just going to kind of cut this down a little bit. [1:13:39] Um to speak to the sense of community, I've been a visitor at the Environmental Advisory Commission for the past couple months and their welcoming with me and their engagement with me is just a testament to our sense of community. [1:13:58] um with a lot of environmental issues like reducing straws or reducing plastic bags. Um they're great practices but I feel like they put a lot of the burden on the individual kind of absolve like corporate entities from their responsibility but that is not the case here. We can make a choice to not take down the trees. So, I hope we just keep that in mind and just understand that they are part of their community. Thank you. [1:14:34] Thank you. 3633 Rolling View [1:14:47] Drive. 3633 Rolling View Drive. I'm Zoe Anderson. I've lived here all of my 17 years, which admittedly isn't as press as impressive as some of you guys, but um I know that the council has said that if they do unfortunately cut down these trees, they will plant new trees, but I just want to say a little bit about why that isn't really a solution. Uh it takes 75 years for new oak trees when they're planted to mature. Uh it'll be 2100 before those trees mature. I will with luck be 92 years old and unfortunately all of you guys will be long gone. [1:15:31] Thank you for the unfortunately part. It will take 75 years. It'll take 75 years to undo the mistake of cutting down those trees for only 15 parking spots. Everybody who's spoken tonight has been very has said a lot of amazing things. So, I'll try and be brief. But I think that everybody on the council should understand that the impacts this decision will have will not just impact your life, but our future generations, our kids and our grandkids. I do not think that in another hundred years my grandkids or great grandkids will cherish a parking spot. I do not think that in a hundred years parking spots will these parking spots will matter. I don't think they'll remember the time that we had 15 more parking spots. But [1:16:18] those trees matter now. You can see by how many people turned out to protect them. And in a hundred years, my grandkids or great grandkids will cherish these trees that have watched our town and our nation grow. I don't think they'll cherish concrete. Please consider this when making your decision. [1:16:34] Thank you. Thank you. All right. The last name on my list is 4292 Green Haven Court. [1:16:57] Thank you for giving us this opportunity. Um, I'm Januzlick and I live at 4292 Green Haven Court in Badness Heights. I've been there for 38 years. I use that parking lot a lot. I love the quilt store. I'm there frequently, but I also enjoy the other shops along that street and I rarely have ever had a hard time finding a spot in that lot. And it's various times of the day, various days of the week. There was even a Christmas event going on downtown and the sides the streets were parked full of cars and I could still get into that parking lot. So I really questioned the real need of 15 more spots. At the one time I had a little [1:17:44] trouble finding was for uh farmers market and then I just parked a little further away on the street and that's open what 8 4 hours 8 to noon and those open up really quickly when people get their their produce and they leave. So I I really wonder why the need for this, you know, and we hear all about um climate change and carbon dioxide is a factor in climate change and these trees take the carbon out of the air as they've said and give us oxygen. They also absorb heat on a hot summer day and their canopy covers that asphalt parking lot and the cars parked in there which [1:18:29] reduces the amount of heat that's radiated back out into the atmosphere. So, it's just um it's hard to believe that that those beautiful trees would be at risk for being removed um for parking. It's either you really believe in uh wanting to do something for the environment because they are they're doing something right in that little area for the environment and um so I I thank you for this. Thank you. Those are all the names on my list, but anyone else who'd like to speak? I saw an go. Please come on up. [1:19:16] I am Suzanne Ryan from Whitebear Township and I am originally from Texas and um what we have here is trees that grow big in Texas. We did not have big trees, you know, but of course I love the trees and I was a tree hugger at one time when they were expanding the interstate highway and tried to stop the, you know, the building. It did no good. But here, you honor all the people in this room that have spoken to save these trees. [1:19:54] And so I val I value this community because you value us. But also, I just came back from North Carolina where they've got thousands and thousands of trees, but they don't get very big in diameter like these do. So, I think we have a valuable resource in our trees because they do get big and I think um that is worth saving. And also I um I would just like to say that these trees add oxygen to the air and I heard one person mention that but they take the carbon dioxide out of the air which [1:20:41] would be harmful for us to breathe and give back oxygen which we do need to breathe. So I think I think we should save them honestly. And I moved here to White Bear Lake from Texas because I love downtown and I love this whole community and this atmosphere. [1:21:03] Thank you. [1:21:14] Good evening, mayor and council. I'm Ellen Gorillaola, 1548 Fifth Street, also a member of the White Bear Lake Environmental Advisory Commission. You've heard from a few of us, so I don't need a repeat, but I would like to say something I love about White Bear. [1:21:29] My family and I moved here because I love this small town feel and I also love the outdoors. And growing I grew up in Richfield, Minnesota. a lot of characteristics to that small town feel, but when I go back and visit there, they've done a lot of changes, a lot of parking lots, a lot of nature parts torn down. It's not the same rich field I remember. So, I have my kids here past bedtime and I know many of you have children and something to consider is Christian and Julian and your decision that I hope years from now when they come back and are grown and visit me, they'll have those same characteristics. [1:22:06] We walk often from the library all the way to the CVS. There's not much shade on that route. And those trees are important and do provide that for a lot of young families. And just the same like beauty of downtown that a lot have expressed and I want them to remember it that way. So hope you'll take that into consideration. Thank you. Thank you. [1:22:32] Time for Ben. [Applause] We live at 4617 Shady Lane. You want to save the trees. [1:22:54] Please, please. Okay. Um, yeah, I agree with everything everyone said. I'm sorry for the disturbance of bringing a child into the meeting. Um but yeah, thank you for your consideration. Uh it takes an oak 20 to 40 years before it's acorns are produced before it's a reproduction age. So, um, oaks in particular are a low a slow growing species and an asset to our community. And, um, we've lived here about four years. And, um, one of the reasons we love it here are the big the trees. So, thanks very, very much. [1:23:36] Very good. Thank you. Would anyone else like to say a few words, please? [1:23:46] Good evening. I'm Jan Chamberlain. I live at 22878th Street. I've lived there for over 30 years. I know you have a difficult decision. Um, I do not want your job at all. You have to make lots of people happy. I know that's difficult. Everyone so far tonight has spoken in favor of the trees. They've all said what I have here. So many of us in this community think alike, but there are different views and I acknowledge that. Please just remember the trees. As they say, they're over a hundred years old. If they're taken down, they're gone. They will not be back. We will not see anything that is planted to replace them achieve their magnificence in most [1:24:35] of our lifetimes. Um, I was going to say in any of ours here tonight, but there's some young ones who might. Um, which is nice. Um, I live in a hundred-year-old house. If I'm going to downtown, 99% of the time it's to go to ACE to get something I need to fix my house. I have never had a problem finding a parking spot in the Ace lot. I'm not sure more spaces there are needed. somewhere else in downtown possibly, but not there. [1:25:08] Please again consider saving the trees. Thank you. Thank you. Please. Hello. Uh Mark Helth. I wasn't planning on speaking tonight, but I thought I I should. Um Mark Hel at 5223 Lake View Avenue in Wiper Township. [1:25:28] Um, everybody else probably smarter than me that already gave all the uh uh practical and and uh econ and um uh environmental reasons for keeping trees. I I think they're hard to argue. [1:25:43] Uh but really I think the trees are uh are what really drives in a lot of ways drives traffic to downtown and maybe creating that problem with our parking, right? I mean, why do we take them down if if uh people at people who I know for sure who come and visit me and and my family, they just rave about this downtown area and I've been here 26 years and and uh show it off as much as I can and um I just feel that it's it is important that we keep uh trees that have been around that long. I think they do draw traffic to downtown and it would be a shame to remove them. So, thank you. Thank you. [1:26:34] 1849 Whitaker Street, Paul Moss. Uh, thanks very much, very much to the mayor and council for inviting people. It's hard not to be super touched by everything that people have said today. It's really, really amazing. I guess the only thing I would add is when you're looking in the future and you're trying to uh plan for parking downtown, just consider the fact that these businesses that look healthy and maybe are vibrant today may not be there tomorrow. You know, CVS has been closing a lot of stores throughout the country. You know, I don't know what the situation is with Ace or with a lot of the other uh uh businesses downtown, but but don't necessarily just straight line the the the future based on what you see right [1:27:20] now because we very well may not need a lot more parking spaces in the future like some of the other people have said. So, I think it's really important that we keep these trees there and respect them as elders in our community. And um again, I'm just so touched with what everyone said and thanks for your attention. [1:27:40] Thank you. Anyone else, please? [1:27:50] Hi, my name is Colleen O'Brien. I'm actually from Vadness Sites, but I grew up in White Bear Lake, and I'm currently um one of the school nurses for our school district. Um, I am a public school nurse and also I'm a public health nurse and there are numerous benefits to green spaces and trees specifically for public health. So, I just want to make sure that that's well known. Um, and then in this beautiful room that displays beautiful trees behind you. Um, keeping that in mind. [1:28:18] Um, I also want like I have teenagers and they're always talking about the vibe, right? the vibe of the place and the vibe of Wiper Lake is these beautiful large mature trees. We have them in our parks and um and I go to the Fourth of July fireworks every Fourth of July um over at the beach. I have never had a problem parking even in the craziest of times, even during Marketfest. And I realize that doesn't necessarily deal with this parking lot in particular, but I have always had no problems finding parking. Um, but what I would say about the vibe of the place, trees are the vibe of White Lake. I can't believe I'm saying this. I'm glad they're not here. I'm glad my kids aren't here to [1:29:05] see this. Um, but also, you know, if you do cut down these trees and then we have all these extra parking spots, we lose all that shade, all those benefits that people have been talking about. But we also um Oh my gosh, I totally forgot what I was going to say. [1:29:25] Um, so we have, um, I don't know if it's like a scarcity. Like, sure, we have all this open space now with all these excessive parking spaces, but then everybody's going to be like, well, why are we even in downtown Wiper Lake? The trees are gone and like nobody's here because there's all all these open spaces, you know? So, um, I love downtown Wiper. I moved back here from living elsewhere and part of the reason is because of the vibe. So, please keep that in mind. Thank you. [1:29:56] Thank you. Would anyone else like to speak to this issue? Mayor and councel Mark Ryan, 4701 Wood Avenue. As you know, I'm always in agreement with everything that that's comes up up here. But I will say this, those trees need to stay. They really do. There's no I I haven't heard anybody from the the uh the the merchants or the downtown white bear people saying we have to get rid of them. We need the spaces. Nobody here tonight said that we need to to get rid of them. Please save them. Thank you for your time. Thank you. [1:30:38] Right. Any final thoughts, please? My name is Dave Ryan. I kind of have to speak because that was my brother and if I don't speak that against me and I don't know the uh Susanna Ryan, but uh we're not con connected. Uh I grew up in White Bear Lake. These are just some comments that uh I'd like to add. I grew up in White Bear. An aerial view of the downtown area shows three really desirable elements. the lake, the historic downtown, and the canopy of trees downtown and in the surrounding neighborhood. It's a very Norman Rockwell type of town. The fourth tree was described as generally in decline. [1:31:21] The same could be said of me. Um, well, but uh so I'd like to advocate for that tree as well as the other three. It's also approximately 150 years old. It's had a tougher go of it locationwise. it's deserving to be spared. A no-brainer is a term mentioned a few times. Based on the public input, this seems like a no-brainer. The five members on the council represent all of us here tonight. It's overwhelmingly in support of leaving the trees. I don't see this as a tough decision. Laura Hubman chained herself to the trees when they built Whitebear Parkway connecting to Otter Lake Road and 9inth Street. Anybody remember that we are less physically passionate [1:32:08] in our protest but just as committed the cottonwoods in Mataska Park, the trees in Railroad Park along Lake Avenue, they all add to the quality of life we ask to protect. Thank you for hearing all the quality speakers comments. There's not been one speaker in favor of cutting the trees. Thank you. Thank you. [1:32:33] All right. Any anyone else any final comments before I close the public hearing? All right. I will close the public hearing, bring it back to the council. Uh, as is customary, I'm going to get things kicked off. I'll note that I've received a lot of emails on this. Um, and some of you spoke here in addition to emails that I've received. But, uh, to those that did send an email that didn't get a reply, I did read them all. [1:32:59] Uh, there were just a lot. So, uh, I I do thank those that sent emails and everyone who showed up here today to speak to this issue. There's obviously a lot of passion among the community and that's a good thing. Uh, I also want to extend a special thank you to the environmental advisory commission. [1:33:18] Um, those are volunteer boards, often thankless jobs, and sometimes we're in agreement as a council with the commission, sometimes we're not, whether it's the advisory commission or park commission. But we do recognize that you put a lot of hard work and time into these issues and you did send the council two letters and we did read them. I've got about three or four kind of section comments and then um I'll conclude with what where I've come down on this one. So first off, parking is an issue downtown. It's it's a question of how big of an issue is it? Is it at crisis? [1:33:56] I don't think so. those that say, "I've never failed to find a spot." U I don't think you're lying, but I've failed to find a spot in that lot several times. Is it during the peak times on Friday and Saturday? Sure. It's not all day every day. That's just the es and flows of the downtown area. So, that really is sort of the genesis behind why I think the steering committee landed on a recommendation. Um, and we we'll pause there and side note, the steering committee who did recommend this and did put put forth a proposal is represented by a large cross-section of the community. It's some business owners, it's some residents, it's the historical society, it's the arts district. So, that is um you know um a lot of different views and opinions that did [1:34:42] that did come to that conclusion. So, I think we need to have some some difference for that. Um, and there was there was someone who said, um, this is so this is so black and white for them. I think they're referring to their kids, meaning we we ought to keep it. I I disagree. I I I I don't think it's any more black and white to keep them as it is black and white to cut them down. There's a lot of back and forth, and that's that's what the council's job is. I I don't think cutting the trees down is going to ruin the environment any more than adding or not having 15 additional parking spots is going to ruin business in downtown White Bear. Um, I do appreciate the passion, but I want to kind of narrow the focus because um, as far as the environmental concerns, I can appreciate what Four Trees does um, for the [1:35:28] environment, for for cleaning up the air, for storm water control. This what's before the DIS right now isn't clear cutting a forest for development. It it's for trees. They're important trees. They mean a lot to the community. Um, but I think the insinuation that somehow the council's anti- trees or wants to destroy the environment, I think the fact that we're having a public hearing like this over four trees speaks to how rare and how infrequent uh the idea of cutting down large mature oak trees is. Um, I also think some of the comments that cars aren't going anywhere, I'm going to have to disagree. Um, Mr. David and I partner pretty well on on stopping a bus line because uh we didn't want mass [1:36:13] transportation because it would it would kill the community vibe as one person said. Um but but people got to get here somehow and they're they're going to have to drive then because we don't have public transportation. Um, I also think that there are some practical considerations that haven't been fully fleshed out. And by that I mean the engineering considerations with we are going to reconstruct a lot somehow. Um, even if we keep the trees and digging up the old pavement, we're going to hit roots that that potentially makes the trees vulnerable. I will note to some of the storm water comments um yes storm water runoff is a problem there because many many years ago there wasn't proper storm drainage put in and that's one of the things that we hope to solve and in order to do that you need to dig deep and when you dig you're going to [1:36:59] encounter roots. So I look at yes there's there's practical reasons um to solve for parking. I think I think the reason we didn't hear from any business owners in fairness um is because this is a polarizing issue and on a totally separate topic that I don't even want to get into. There's a business being boycotted downtown White Bear because they expressed certain opinions that were polarizing. So I don't blame any business owners for not wanting to show up. Some have contacted me and um they've expressed concerns about parking and they haven't been too bent out of shape saying if we don't do this it's a crisis. But they they've at least expressed concern that parking is and continues to be an issue and they want to run a business and allow people to get there. So, having said all that, because I'm on record at the last [1:37:45] council meeting and certainly at a at a work session saying um I support cutting down the trees because I think this is a practical u practical solution to help solve a parking issue. There's there's one last thing that um that I've grappled with through the emails and listening to folks testify here today and that is how much these trees mean to people not to save the planet from an environmental standpoint. Um not because they, you know, think everybody should get rid of cars. It's the vibe. It's the small town feel. It's the it's the charm of the city. And that is what means the most to me in terms of what what testimony is pretty darn compelling. Uh I ran a [1:38:32] campaign on preserve the history charm and character of White Bear, which is why I didn't want anything to do with a bus line cuz that just wasn't White Bear. Um and I recognize that we have a vibe, a feel. And if these trees mean that much to folks, then I'm forced to make a decision and make a recommendation. Are 15 spots important to the businesses? Yeah, I think it is. [1:38:56] Are these trees more important to the community that it outweighs that? Yeah, I think I think I've been convinced through many many emails and all of you testifying. Um, so having said that, again there I appreciated one of the the people who said this is a difficult decision. I don't envy your job. Thank you. Um, I appreciate having some respect for that because it's not black and white. these are the the balancing acts that elected officials that are just members of the community like you are trying to figure out and make good decisions. So on this one um um I change my opinion on this and um while I still think it's a practical solution, I'm I'm convinced overwhelmingly that these are trees that we ought to save. Um and I would hope that our engineering can can put put forth a proposal to keep these [1:39:42] trees with one slight caveat to that. There is a fourth tree that tree experts are saying isn't in the best of condition. And I think it makes sense that if we're going to save three, that one remaining tree that is closest to the building that does have limbs that are falling, that makes sense uh to get rid of. So that's the the direction I would like to see us go is to preserve the three primary trees that the experts say are healthy. And if the fourth one truly is in a state of decline and probably isn't going to last that much longer or we don't know, then I would support taking out that one tree. So, thank you again all of you for testifying. And with that, I'll I'll pipe down and throw it to the council. [1:40:22] Council, do we have questions for Mr. Copy comments? I will note we're not making any decisions tonight. This was just a public hearing, but that's where I stand on it. So, I wanted to get those uh those thoughts out on the table. Council Council member Walsh, I do have a question uh for Mr. Copy. Uh a couple actually. So, one, the the the the fourth tree as that's been referred to the the one that's in a little bit of stress. Uh what what is does that what does that get us in net parking? If we take that one down, does that get us a spot or two? What is what are we looking at? Uh mayor, members of the council, um probably one or two stalls. [1:41:04] Um. Um. Yeah. Yeah. So, so you could if is it the 15 minus one is we're in 14 then maybe we're not quite gaining as much. No, I guess it's the other way around. Well yeah we would No, it would be we would not Well, whatever the math is. Yeah, one or two. [1:41:25] Then then the mayor brought this up too. Um the concern of uh the reconstruction concern. Um, so there's a there's a pretty there's a pretty big obviously this is this is what's taking up all the space is the the grassy area that supports the trees and the root system. [1:41:42] Um, you know, so a couple questions. One, somebody mentioned the first time I've heard it is that that the tree was overp pruned uh years ago and and that's that because they they don't really have the greatest canopy. Um, is that so my question was I didn't heard that till tonight. I was is the is the grassy area limit the canopy? Is it sort of a the roots can't go any further because they start hitting a pavement area on top or or is it the pruning? What do you think the explains that? Uh mayor, members of the council, um I've talked to a few folks that have uh had experienced the pruning uh component of it and um somebody who had spoke tonight um mentioned it that they kind of initially weren't sure how the trees were going to react to it. They have [1:42:28] survived. The uh rainbow tree carrier um continues to say that they thrive. They keep budding. They uh generally are healthy trees. So um other than the look of it, does the does the ground space grassy area limit the canopy or is it t typically? Yes. Uh mayor, members of the council, uh typically uh a canopy of a tree is limited typically to or at least that drip line um is the susceptible area for that. Not that they can't grow beyond it. Obviously, we have um trees that grow in, you know, boulevards, things like that that are hanging over the uh the roadway. So, not necessarily limiting it, but um somebody mentioned the activity under that drip line. Um, [1:43:13] we do, uh, anytime we do construction in areas like that, we take measures to, uh, we do root cutting, things like that to help minimize the impact to those trees and and, uh, um, that damages them is when you dig next to them and you rip roots out and you do measures to keep that to a minimum. So, that's my question. So, you're confident you'll you'll this will be your project overseeing it. You have we'll have a contractor out there, but you're confident we can redo the parking lot and and keep the trees with those precautions. Uh yeah, may mayor members of the council. Yes. Uh we do it all the time with our road reconstruction projects. Uh we redoing curbs. We uh take extra measures during during construction to protect uh trees that are near the uh the construction area. [1:43:59] Okay. Well, my last question is for you. I guess you just said we're not going to make a decision tonight. What is the what is the decision point and how does it how does it work? Well, I think the direction would be to to send it back to staff so that the next meeting when we approve the plans um that's part of it, but I'm open to some commentary from staff on what the the process is. So, we've got review preliminary layout. [1:44:24] Yeah, that's I think what it is. That's at the next council meeting. Council member Walsh, if you're looking at this, that that's when we're doing it. think this was uh proactive planning early enough so that we know when we do ultimately do it, we're not having a debate about the broader parking lot plans. This was a discrete issue as part of the broader uh approval of the four parking lots. So there will be a decision and whether we want to cut down the trees or keep them will impact the plans that we ultimately adopt which is not before us tonight. [1:45:00] Anyone else on the council? Don't have to speak. It's not not an action item. Council member West. Um, thank you, Mayor. I, um, appreciate everybody coming tonight and sharing your thoughts about keeping the trees. [1:45:18] Um, I did actually get a phone call. And by the way, I don't like even with the dog park, I didn't get really phone calls. I had conversations, but I didn't get phone calls about that. I got two phone calls this afternoon. One from a business member who did say, "Listen, this actually affects me, but I care about the trees." Um, so he wanted to keep the trees just as a kind of point of information. Um, I appreciate, um, you know, the community coming out and sharing information. Um, like the mayor says, it's very, it is really tricky to balance kind of um the various different needs in the community and it always helps to hear from people in the community um about what they're thinking [1:46:04] um to help at least me make the decisions um the best the best that I can. um some of the things that I was thinking about um and you know the the woman who was talking about the vibe, I really hope that your teenagers find this um recording and watch it because I think that would be really totally great. Um, but I do but I do agree that I think the um the trees do add to the welcoming space that there is in the downtown and and that I really do appreciate that. I also think um I mean with the many benefits and we you know you all did a really great job talking about all the different benefits [1:46:51] um even even kind of the practical like how many if we were actually going to replace the size of those trees with little saplings like how many that would actually have to be that's a lot of them so even kind of the practicality of it um really doesn't make a whole lot of sense and and I think um although people are challenged with parking. I think it is more of a perception than it is a kind of a reality of a parking issue. [1:47:19] And can't we all use a little more exercise anyways? I mean, honestly, um, yeah, I think that's it. I just really appreciate everybody sharing your opinion. Thanks so much. [1:47:35] Any other thoughts from the council or questions for Mr. Copy? Council member Edbert. Thank you, mayor. So, um, sometimes this work gets a little interesting and when you say you're going to listen to the community, sometimes it takes you to places that you didn't think you were going to go. [1:47:55] I've had that experience on this topic. Um, so my background includes professional degrees in horiculture and agricultural economics. I crunch numbers at the margin because that's what economists do. We look at what's the net change that happens as a result in this case reducing three trees and what's the impact of that and I could get into details about rates of water infiltration and rates of carbon sequestration and the total volume of that in the whole ecosystem that we occupy. And I've also decided that that's not the right analysis to use that those numbers while useful and [1:48:42] frankly I'll still pick a bone with anybody who wants to say you know what the square footage that we have there is massively important to our groundwater management. No, not so much. Massively important to carbon sequestration. No, not so much. But that's not the analysis that I'm going to use. What came to me through this conversation is that the what distinguishes Miss Bolstead is yes. So um what makes a difference is the age of these trees and the character of the urban forest that we have distinguishes us from other suburbs, distinguishes our downtown from [1:49:29] other places. We have a history and a gravitas and a and an ambiance. Those are old words. Vibe is the new one that distinguish our downtown and make it a destination in a way that um even if I could find it, I'm not sure I would uh think about going to downtown Woodbury. Just ain't my thing. So, um I too last in over the past uh three weeks I've spent about four or five hours walking around downtown White Bear for a variety of topics. As I've looked at all of our parking spaces and our um uh on street parking, we have enough. I [1:50:17] think the issue and coming out of the the mobility study is that um it is a perceptual issue. it can be addressed through through um uh exercise. I'm on board with that. I don't that we don't need the tradeoff is not worth it. Um I agree with the mayor in saying intellectually yes it's pragmatic, but in in the in the tradeoff, I'm uh I'm not so convinced. I was uh uh Friday afternoon, last Friday, mid uh at lunchtime, presumably the biggest uh you know, one of the biggest times during the day, we had plenty of spots. Other times the year, my experience has been what several of you have described. Yeah, you have to you might have to drive a little bit, but [1:51:04] not too much. And I think that's a fair trade-off. So, um I think the things that I would suggest and the options that I'd encourage us to consider, um if we're going to retain those trees, I like the idea of some type of plantings, preferably maybe this is a project for the environmental commission um to look at some aspect of education. I don't know about putting a putting picnic tables there or benches. [1:51:37] I don't know. Maybe I really don't need to have Andy having to uh go and m mo mow more grass, but doing something there that speaks to the value uh of our heritage, of our history. What can we do that adds value to the experience? And maybe it's nothing. Maybe we just leave the trees as they are and and the walk space. But I'm inclined to think that there's something there that we haven't thought enough about to uh uh to add value. So I would encourage us to think about that. [1:52:13] Um the fourth tree, I don't I don't know what to think about that exactly. My inclination is to say, you know what, it might be declining as are several of us. um into a bench and eventually it it may they it may fall at that time. We can make that decision. I I'm not itching to find a whole lot more. I don't I don't feel a need to drive to the last inch to find another one or two parking spots. I think we can find them on on street. We can manage the bumpouts differently. We can do a variety of other strategies. [1:52:51] So, that's uh that's where I'm inclined to go. And um so thank you for your inputs and for all the communications that have been had over the last uh couple of weeks. Any other comments from the council? Yeah, council member Hughes. Um I think almost my whole ward is here, so it would be I think I've been told what to think, which is appropriate. Um so I would I would welcome any kind of layout that keeps the four trees. Um and I I sort of feel like Mr. Edber, you didn't say this, but there's a little bit of a there's the perception of a parking problem, and there's a perception of the value of the trees. Um, and so I agree with you. It probably doesn't do everything that was claimed they will do, but there is that when you walk into the town, there's that perception of [1:53:38] what the feeling is and it gives. And um, like the mayor, I like our small town and want to keep that vibe alive. Any other final thoughts? So, I'll ask uh Mr. Copy, do you need any additional direction from the council for purposes of the next stages of of approving the plans for this and other parking lots? [1:54:01] Um, mayor, members of the council, I believe uh your dialogue tonight uh gives me enough direction to provide the uh um layouts that you have requested and we'll bring those back on the uh 22nd. Right. Um, a final note, the fourth tree, the one that isn't as in good a health. If if the council wants to keep it, that's fine with me. I think we should put some more thought into that. For purposes of future planning, if we needed to pivot on that, because it's a little tab, I assume we could do that pretty easily. Um, the bigger issue is the the three trees that that we need to have kind of drilled down to move on. [1:54:38] Uh, mayor, members of the council, that is correct. Okay, good. All right. Good thoughts, council. Thank you all in the community for testifying and we'll be finalizing these plans in the coming weeks. Thank you. [1:54:56] Why don't council, we're going to take a 5m minute recess just to allow certain people to to clear out. We'll be back at 9:00. Back at 9. [2:04:21] code regarding dogs. Mr. Anderson. Thank you, Mayor, Council. Uh, a few less people here for this hearing, it looks like. Uh, so we're here for a first reading on an ordinance related to dogs. Um the council obviously had some recent discussions about the Mataska uh park dog beach. Uh one issue that was raised during those meetings recently, you'll all recall, was the fact that in 2017 uh there was a rule enacted for uh the dog beach requiring dogs to be leashed at all times. It was a 30-foot leash um requirement. Um that rule was never adopted by ordinance or codified. [2:04:58] Um not really sure why, but that's the reality. Um, and what that means is it can't really be effectively enforced. It can be communicated. You can put signs up, um, but people can call the police and there's not much that law enforcement, um, can do about that, um, just because it isn't legislation. Um, so the council directed staff to prepare an ordinance incorporating that rule into the city code, uh, which we did in the draft ordinance before you. Um, I also want to point out, and I noted this in the memo that's in your packet, uh, while we were preparing that ordinance, staff was reviewing the code. We're talking about different things, leash requirements, what dogs are doing. Um, and we realize that the language, it leaves a lot of gray area as it relates [2:05:44] to dogs specifically. People can be with their dog on public property, on sidewalks, in parks, um, streets, wherever, um, without a leash. as long as the dog is um and this is the uh verbatim from the ordinance at heel beside the owner or keeper and obedient to that person's command which is uh we talked to Chief Hagar about this I mean it's very difficult to uh enforce that to police that to issue citations um and it's a public safety issue just given the unpredictability of animals other things that um you know could happen in the surrounding environment Maybe it's a very well-trained dog, but u things happen. And um to address that, [2:06:30] we we put together a draft ordinance. It effectively requires that dogs remain leashed at all times when they're not on private property uh or in their um vehicle of whomever is is keeping them. Um I'd point out that the vast majority of cities throughout the the metro area do have an ordinance in place that already requires that. White Bear Lake, um is one of the few exceptions. Um, for example, Shore View, Madameai, Vadness Heights, Hugo, New Brighton, Ardan Hills Oakdale Roseville Maplewood um, all close by cities that that require dogs to be on a leash when you're not um, in your yard um, or, you know, on private property that you have the permission to be on with your animal. Um, and I'd also say one factor that led to this recommendation was when staff was talking about this is the [2:07:16] notion that people would be bringing their dogs to the dog beach, they wouldn't be on a leash. They'd be walking from cars down the street to get there and then when they get there, they have to leash up uh when entering a dog specific exercise area. um it just seemed a bit illogical and we thought we'd bring this to the council as a as an opportunity to address a again a gray area in the code and potential safety issue and enforcement issue for for law enforcement. So um those are really the two primary issues addressed by this ordinance. Um they're not uh mutually exclusive. You can certainly um um simply codify the uh Mataska Park 30-foot leash requirement and and get rid of the other modification that we made here. Uh but we did think it was [2:08:01] important enough to bring to council for discussion and some um policy consideration. And again, we're here tonight for a first reading uh and a public hearing after which, you know, the council certainly uh can discuss the the policies, direct staff to make changes or leave it alone and um we'd bring it back at a future meeting if that's the direction we're given uh for a second reading and and potential adoption. [2:08:27] Thank you, Mr. Anderson. I don't have any questions. I'll just make one comment. I I think your average resident would be surprised to find out that we don't have a leash law. I I think if you're really in the know, you kind of know that, but I'll just speak for one person that I may or may not be married to. I I told her about that and she said, "What? We don't have a leash law in this city." So, that's one person, but to be honest, until we had this discussion, I just assume we had a leash law, too. So, I've got no problem with this. It makes good sense to shore up this gray spot in our law. And and we've done our first reading. So, council, do we have any questions for Mr. [2:09:02] Anderson? Council member Edward. Thank you, mayor. So, Mr. Anderson, in your verbal comments just now, you you me you added a phrase that I was not sure where that's found in the in the language. You said you mentioned so the the language speaks to the property of the person who's owning the dog, owning, harboring, or keeping the dog. So, it's that person's property. But you added something about if they were that struck me is if you've got your dog at a neighbors or a friend's or somebody else's where is that covered under the or what's the phraseology to look for that allows um I don't have one but if I had my poodle and took him to you know down the [2:09:49] street visiting uh backyard barbecue somebody else wherever your house okay fine um and Uh, do they have to be on a leash at when they are when I'm a guest? And where does that where's that language in here that we would look at? [2:10:04] I think it's already in there. I mean, the way I interpret the ordinance is is on a person owning, harboring, or keeping the dog's property. In my opinion, if someone brings their dog to your house, you're keeping that dog on your property for that moment. And I I don't think that there would be an issue having it off leash. If the council wanted clarity on that or more clarity, um, you know, we're happy to implement that sort of language into the ordinance. Um, but as written, I don't think there would be any preclusion from somebody to bring their dog to a friend's house and let it roam free in the backyard as long as they have the permission to do that from the friend. [2:10:40] So in that case, the person would be the the the new homeowner, the second homeowner, and they would be keeping Okay. Got at least temporarily, they'd be keeping the dog. Yeah. Okay. I understand that. That makes sense. Thank you. Any other questions? [2:10:57] All right. Seeing none, we will open this up for a public hearing. Uh I have no names on the list and there's only two people left in the audience, but if either of you two would like to speak at this issue, please step forward. Seeing none, I will close the public hearing and bring it back to the council. All right. Any final thoughts on this? It was just the first reading, so we've done what we are required to do. [2:11:17] Council member Hughes. Yeah. You know, stupid question. I actually think the lake belong Sorry. I actually think the lake belongs to Ramsey County, so it wouldn't really be in in the city, but what about a dog in a boat? Is that a motor motor vehicle? Or or a dog on a uh See lots of dogs on paddle boards. Love it. So cute. and they're wearing their life jackets. It's a good question. Um I haven't thought about that. I think that that's county, but I but I just didn't know. Yeah. And I don't know, chief, if we enforce ordinances on the water or not. I mean, I know there's a conservation district. [2:11:51] I don't know if they have ordinances or if the county has jurisdiction over things that happen on the water. Do you have thoughts on that? Yeah, Mr. Mayor, members of the council, um thankfully, no. We don't uh enforce laws on the water. That's the county's jurisdiction. I don't know that answer to that question about boats and I think somebody'd have to complain. I just was kind of as as I was listening I was like, "Oh, I see lots of dogs and boats." Sure. It seems to me my understanding is uh that uh Ramsey County um patrols the lake. We have a conservation district which kind of governs regulatory function of the lake which is unique. There's two out of our 10,000 plus lakes, us and Minnitonka. [2:12:30] Um, and then, uh, I believe the DNR technically has jurisdiction and owns all lakes in Minnesota. So, either way, not our problem. Um, that's my thought. Mayor, that's exactly what I was going to say. Um, water patrol enforces all uh all things on on White Bear Lake, um, and uh, excuse me, conservation district and then ultimately owned by the DNR. [2:12:57] All right, Council Member Edward. Thank you. One other technical but so I remember the debate the evening remember Walsh might also I think he and I might be the only two that were here then maybe about um the the adequacy of a 30-foot leash and whether there are danger issues especially in around water for animals on leash in water risk and ground blah blah blah all that kind of stuff. Do we have any have we had any experience any guidance? Is there anything that we that might be known about whether that's positive or a potentially threatening requirement? That that was a question. I don't know that we ever answered that [2:13:44] question. There were assertions both ways, but I haven't heard it since. So, I'm just trying to think my way through that. Mayor, Council Member Edberg, that's a great question. I don't have an answer to that because I agree with you that I don't think we have answered that question and um I haven't pulled uh enough people uh you know there was a lot of contradiction with do they need a leash do they not what's enforcable so I don't think we really have a good uh data point to answer that question at this point okay and would this would a violation so I'm going to switch gears would a violation uh somebody's walking their dog whether they're under control or not. They're not on a leash. Is that a misdemeanor? [2:14:30] A How do we punish that? And what options do we have for saying, you know, this is really severe or just don't do this and to remind you we're going to do ding, ding, ding, whatever. How how do we how do we look at that? Yeah, that's a good question. So, um the general rule is that any code violation is a misdemeanor under state law. What I will say is I'm a former prosecutor. I've handled plenty of of city code related misdemeanor offenses. A lot of them get handled in a payable fashion and they get reduced to a petty misdemeanor. Um but that is uh generally up to the uh prosecutor that's handling it and ultimately if uh if there's a conviction and not a plea deal um the judge who who imposes a sentence. [2:15:17] Um, and having prosecuted at dog atlarge cases for long enough, there are repeat offenders where it makes sense to leave that in place in my opinion because I think there's always the ability to reduce it down. I don't know if Chief Hager has thoughts on this, but I think a lot of prosecutors uh and law enforcement are very comfortable with having misdemeanor, at least things that are charged as misdemeanor, reduced down. Someone comes in, pays a fine, they're sent on their way, it's reduced to a petty, which is not a crime. [2:15:46] They're not deemed a criminal under state law. It doesn't go on their criminal record, which is a big deal to people. But if they are repeat offenders, it's very nice to have the ability, that tool to say, look, you've done this three times. Um, you've your dog has almost hurt somebody or multiple dogs have done that or whatever the case may be for the violation. Um, we want to make sure one, you're put on probation maybe for 90 days or 60 uh 6 months or something so you don't do it again so you pay attention. Um, and the only way to do that is to to have a misdemeanor penalty because you have to to put someone on probation, hold something over their head. Typically, it's a couple days in jail or a big fine. Um, and that's really the only way to do it. [2:16:32] So again, I think there's many code violations that cities have enacted in their ordinances in their city code that are technically um you can penalize them up to a misdemeanor, but it's very infrequent for that to actually happen, especially with first-time offenders. And you mentioned a fine. Would that be um imposed by the court? Is there an administrative citation component to that that allows us to take action in the absence of of court? How do we there? I mean, the city has multiple tools in its enforcement, you know, tool tool belt. It can uh go the administrative citation route, which is not have any it has nothing to do with district court. You stay out of the criminal or the petty misdemeanor world, and you don't it doesn't even go to the [2:17:17] prosecutor, which is handled administratively by staff. I don't know how robust our administrative citation program is in White Barrel Lake. I haven't heard a bunch about it. Um, and I'm relatively new, so I'd be curious how, Mr. Mayor, members of the council, you know, a couple years ago, a few years ago now, the state took a pretty um rigid stance on administrative citations. They're almost don't exist anymore. Uh we can write administrative citations for a very few number of statutes that or crimes that people commit, speeding, stop sign, and then some equipment violations on a vehicle. [2:17:57] That's about it. And there's a um a dictated by the state how much an administrative ticket could cost. It's $60 across the board. Um most agencies have kind of shied away from doing administrative citations for that reason that um it used to be in the day, as you remember, um you'd write administrative citations kind of do the person a favor, wouldn't go in their driver's record. um you know, possibly they were um a little more expensive and the city got a big chunk of the money and the state just kind of took a stand on that because they weren't getting their cut, I sus I suspect, and said, "This is how much an administrative citation is and these are the things you can write them for and that's it." And dog at large or uh our city ordinances by and large are can't [2:18:42] write city ad uh city administrative citations for those. What what I would add to that too is, you know, there is some authority for charter cities to explore administrative citations a bit more than other cities can. Um I I certainly know the recent stat statutes that um talk about the parking the very limited nature of what you can do for parking. Um I've always taken the position, I know my colleagues have that that typically extends at least arguably extends only to the vehicle enforcement arena. And so cities have been at least recently sort of trying to get this administrative citation um program more uh utilize it more often because you know when your only options [2:19:28] are criminal citation which a lot of judges will see a city code violation and say are you serious? You're going to you're going to fill up my already busy docket criminal docket that has felonies and other things with code violations. [2:19:43] and they get frustrated with it candidly especially in the metro um or civil you can do civil enforcement too but that's really timeconuming and expensive. So cities are starting to do more of that. Um and we can have that discussion. Maybe it's probably a different more global discussion about just code enforcement and those kinds of tools. [2:20:03] But um I have seen some cities, especially charter cities like White Bear Lake, um successfully implement those programs more recently not withstanding the um the good points that that Chief Hager makes. So, one last um so I have a strong suspicion that there's going to be an education period and an education processes. I'm not opposed to the language. I don't know that the message is going to get out and be universally adopted in an immediate fashion. I watch what go what walks by my street and I just can picture what that's going to look like. Do we have some uh I am not opposed to the folks who are [2:20:49] multiple offenders. Yeah, that's let's amp that up. But for first time is is there a way of using warnings and you know, hey, here's the rule. Did you may not have known it. This is the rule. Ding, ding, ding. I don't need that answer tonight, but pondering it for a future conversation unless we know how we want to think about that implementation. [2:21:12] Mr. Mayor, um members of the council, um I I like to think that our officers make really good decisions and and although we have discretion, um we we we my officers have discretion, but I a message will be sent that to to your point that this is new for everybody. [2:21:30] You know, we don't need to come down hard on everybody. We need to kind of maybe ease into this. I don't know what that period of time of easing uh is, but um I'm glad that if this happens, it's starting at the beginning of the summer, so we can kind of take control of it right away and maybe send a few messages out um before, you know, it it could get carried away. [2:21:54] Thank you. Well, I know it's late, but I'm going to keep this conversation going because you raised this and I I think the enforcement component is is important. Whether it's we whether we do it through this or we have that global conversation, I think we should. I recalled a couple years ago that the state cracking down on the administrative tickets and and others can disagree. I'll take the cynical view. That was a cash grab for the state. They wanted 130 bucks going to the state instead of 50 or 70 bucks going to the city. That's why they did it. And the hook that they had is traffic uh traffic violations, moving violations, and then it doesn't get reported to DPS so it doesn't hit your insurance and you can't track that. [2:22:30] Great. We're talking about a local code and people that are on a leash that should be squarely in our jurisdiction and to the extent that our officers officers in their discretion think that a fine is is uh should be imposed those dollars should flow to the city. So I think we should have that broad broader conversation about administrative tickets and I think a leash violation is uh the perfect place to start. [2:22:55] I agree with our city attorney that one thing we need to consider is those repeat offenders and how do we crack down? In theory, someone can say, "You know what? I don't care. Cost business. I pay 70 bucks per leash law violation. I get hit a couple times a summer. Big deal." So my question would be, can we can we build out a structure broadly in our code or specific to leash laws that make it an enhancable offense where x amount of administrative tickets within a period of time it's enhancable to a misdemeanor? Is that a a structure that you are familiar with? And if so, is that a possibility? [2:23:37] Um, yes, I think it is a possibility. I mean, I I think all all these things we're talking about are uh feasible and we can make them happen. Um, what I would add to is there, you know, the provision right now in our administrative offense ordinance, I just pulled it up, is that if you fail to pay that you can later be charged with the actual misdemeanor or petty misdemeanor. [2:23:59] So, you it can ramp up if you don't pay it. Um but you know my other thought is you could and it it becomes a bit difficult um because it's probably there's probably a recordkeeping component to it and I'd be curious um you know how often the off the police plan on dealing with offenders. I mean I'm I'm just Mayor you made a good point. A lot of people probably think you just have to have dogs on a leash at all times. I'm curious if there's a lot of them out there dayto-day that aren't on leashes and if this is going to be an actual, you know, issue long term or if it's going to be that education piece once people get it, you're never going to have to deal with it again because in my experience, you just you don't see a [2:24:47] ton of dog atlarge cases. Um, it just the the times they get charged out is when an incident happens, when someone gets hurt or attacked or, you know, some that's when people call the police and that's when someone gets charged. And I don't think the police are, you know, noticing this all too often, but again, I'd be curious what your thoughts are, Chief. Mr. Mayor, members of the council, last year in 24, we had 174 calls of dog at large. Um, I don't know if a lot of those stem from um certain areas of the city specifically or if it's just kind of a general broad. We didn't we didn't take a look at um each geographical location of those, but we had 174 132 of them we caught and brought somewhere whether it's to our police department and advertised it on [2:25:32] Facebook or to the um to you know appropriate facility for the dogs and then 42 of them we were unable to find or locate. Um so we have a share of them. Um we have a share of bites every year of humans. We had um 18 you know we average about six a year. 18 in the last three years. uh dog bites and um excuse me 25 of them and 18 of them were um unleashed dogs that bit people. So those are the if if we're looking at is it a problem here? Is it not a problem here? [2:26:05] As I said, we um we average about six a year of unleashed dog bites and we um average per month about 15 dogs at large calls that necessitate us to respond and look for the dog and pick it up and that kind of thing. [2:26:24] If I may add, I if I recall correctly, I think about 12 of those calls were from the dog beach in the last summer, I think. So just we I know you hadn't broken them out, but I that's what I recall. Don't quote me on that. Whitebear press. I think that was right in that ballpark. 10 to 12. Yeah. The theund whatever 72 I think you said. [2:26:46] What it sounds like too is a lot of those are are calls about stray dogs. I mean to me there's a difference between someone walking their dog without a leash and letting them run around and a dog that just gets out stray dog that you're actually collecting and bringing back to the station, right? That's probably accurate. [2:27:02] So, if we were to approach this, Mr. Anderson, in an ideal world, I'd say let's do it with this ordinance, but I recognize that that could kind of turn on its head other areas of the code that we have written differently. So, um I'd be looking for your guidance if it were the will of the council to maybe not be quite so draconian with this particular ordinance. Um, should we should we be approaching that in this ordinance or should we take a pause and say let's take more of a global look at our code and how we enforce it and and kind of beef up our administrative citation section? Mo my recommendation just given what we've been talking about recently and sort of the fact that it's about to [2:27:48] be 70 degrees we all hope um and there's going to be more people outside is to get this ordinance in place and then direct staff to have that administrative citation conversation separately um because I do think it doesn't make sense to sort of pick and choose what violations you're going to enforce with administrative citations you know I do think you know it's certainly up to the council, but it may not be a bad idea to say if you if an individual is caught with a dog at large the first time, that's a petty misdemeanor. And if you're caught in charge the second time, if you have one, you know, in the last 12 months or 24 months or something, you look back and it's enhancable and you could theoretically be charged with a misdemeanor. That doesn't mean that the prosecutor or the judge won't still [2:28:33] reduce it to a petty, but at least gives, you know, it it maybe allows folks to not necessarily have that significant court date and everything else associated with their first offense when we're adopting some new rules. Um, because what I would say is if you're charging someone with a misdemeanor, they're always going to have a court date and they're always going to have to go talk to somebody about it. If you're charging them with a petty, it's coded in the statewide offense and the district court's offense uh database as a a payable offense. They can go online, they can pay the ticket. Um the fine itself all comes back to the city, the jurisdiction who issued the citation. [2:29:12] There are what's called court sir charges and fees. 85 bucks I believe is the total. They might have increased recently a little bit. that does go to district court, but that's because they're, you know, their system is handling the ticket and they're usually, uh, if the person wants to challenge it, they're able to come in and and fight it in court. So, um, just an idea, mayor, that maybe you do kind of build in an enhancility to this, um, dog at large provision that that provision that we're changing here. um but then let staff separately have the administrative citation discussion because I think that's a more like again global big picture thing. So I my my question is then if we have that more global conversation about administrative tickets, how does that dovetail into [2:29:59] what we adopt in two weeks if we don't specifically say it in there? Well, I think it would be I haven't looked at it, but there is an administrative offense chapter in your city code. Um, I assume the charter has some authority for that, which I would argue allows the city to utilize that tool that we have that tool at our disposal if we want to use it. [2:30:21] Um, the I guess policy of law enforcement and staff about how to and when to use those tools. um I think is is really a decision for that will that will be trickle down from the council's directives and and ideas. I mean generally staff would be left to their discretion to choose which ones are most appropriate. Um you could certainly say staff you have that tool available. Use it when you think it's right. Use other ones when you think they're right. Um, but if you want to come up with a more, you know, schematic policy about when we use administrative citations, what situations, um, what types of offenses they're appropriate for, um, and, you know, have [2:31:08] that discussion at a policy level. Um, I think that's fine, too. I guess it's your prerogative as a council to determine that. Um, you know, I know Maplewood went through this about five or six years ago and they they they adopted a a an actual policy document that says, you know, we're going to try this first. If it doesn't work, then we're going to try this and if it doesn't. That's mostly related though to um property related issues like public nuisances and things because what you can do with administrative citations with with property related offenses is they don't pay it, you can assess the property back for it. At least you have if you have that in your code, you can. [2:31:46] Um, this one's a little trickier because it's had not happening on your property, right? Can I jump in? Um, the since I've started here, it's been on staff's wish list to get administrative um citations for land use matters, for code enforcement matters. So, I would uh I didn't want to interrupt anybody, but I would really welcome a broader conversation um for this. I know community development staff would greatly appreciate the ability to do that for kind of those repeat um that we just get no traction on. Um it'd be it would be very welcome to have administrative citations for those types of matters probably in addition to this. [2:32:24] Well, I mean I would welcome that conversation. council weigh in, not necessarily specifically gerine to this, but the what I'm getting at within this ordinance is one, I don't want to I don't want to be heavy-handed with a leash law and say it's a petty misdemeanor. Two, and uh really selfishly, I don't want any money to flow to the state for someone who violates a leash law in White Bear Lake. [2:32:50] Um, so I we don't have to do it right now with this, but I think we should do it sooner rather than later and then have that more global discussion. I think there's some things that the administrative citation doesn't lend itself to and then other dog leash violation type things where I want it to be that and I think it gives officers just another tool in their tool to tool belt to exercise discretion if it's an incremental um citation. [2:33:17] Um that that just makes sense to me. Would the council be welcome? Would be open to to having that conversation at a soon to be work session. I'm seeing head nods which is enough right now. Council member Edber. Thank you. [2:33:33] So kind of three related but distinct thoughts. One is I wasn't tracking with the dollar values of the various levels of fines and so forth. When it comes back in a couple of weeks, could we have some information on what that fee structure looks like? just so I have a sense of what the financial implications are for different uh different levels of enforcement. Um so that's number one. [2:33:58] Number two, I'm on board with uh you mayor on the this broader conversation about administrative citations. When I was first elected, that was more of a practice in our community and then for various reasons and the recent legislation that's diminished. So bringing that back I think would be a good approach for us. So um totally on board with that. And then in terms of enforcement I want to go back to the it's like let the officers have some discretion about a warning a petty continued then then it it ramps up. So it's a it's progressive in nature. That's what appeals to me. um especially because we're changing a culture and a pattern that has been long [2:34:45] entrenched and will take some time to not to mention what happens when people who are new to the community and just plain don't know. It's like having some level of some level of discretion to address that practiced on the ground strikes me as as an option but not long-term tolerance and not certainly not repeat tolerance. [2:35:08] Yeah. And in terms of the fines, I mean, if we if you deem the first offense or first-sighted offense a petty, you can't find the person more than $300. That's the maximum monetary penalty on a petty misdemeanor. Um, it can be anywhere below that, but up to 300. [2:35:27] Um, and once you know, here's one thing I would say with with dog at large cases where it's, you know, maybe it would be a not a bad idea not to have the ramp up, but rather leave it to officer discretion. If you can't charge someone with a misdemeanor, they can't be required to come to court and pay restitution. And with dog cases, when I was a baby prosecutor and had to prosecute dog at large cases, the the times we had to do it is when somebody's dog attacked somebody, hurt somebody. [2:35:59] There was medical bills. There were they they damaged something, they destroyed something or hurt somebody, and that person under state law has the right to request restitution, and that the person pay them back through the criminal process, and they're put on probation. If they don't pay it, um they could be deemed uh in violation of their probation. So officers typically use that when they were, I think, using sound discretion. They knew there was a victim who was going to have some rights and that should be given that opportunity. So they charged that individual with the misdemeanor. If that person's dog had escaped and and didn't hurt somebody or didn't attack somebody, that officer might very well have not made that decision, which again, I think is is up to that individual officer depending on the circumstances. But, you know, I think we can all probably [2:36:44] appreciate that. Um, you know, not every loose dog is is equal to another. It kind of depends on what what unfolds when that situation happens. Um, so maybe that's a reason just to deem it a misdemeanor. It still gives everyone the ability to use discretion from the officer all the way to the prosecutor and to the judge. Um, and if there's reason to to be more serious with it, they can do that. Um, that's my kind of hindsight answer now after thinking about this and talking through it. this evening, which I it's been helpful. U that said, if the council wanted to do something different like a um you know, petty for the first offense and then it ramps up after that, we can we can think about that as well. [2:37:30] This is probably is a better question for work session, but just briefly, but we can adjust downward too and have a broader spectrum for for if it's a dog bite case, it could be a misdemeanor, but if it's not, it could be an administrative ticket. Sure. So, I think that's that's that's the direction I'm going. I think that's that's good advice. Thank you for that for those circumstances, but downward. Um, okay. [2:37:51] So, that'll be a topic of future conversation and the proposed ordinance is is good as is what I'm seeing. Good. Yes. Okay. We've had our first reading. Item seven, unfinished business, nothing scheduled. Item 8, A, issuance of general obligation for bonds for the 2025 pavement rehabilitation project and equipment certificates for a firet truck. Miss Kinser, thanks for sticking with us. Yes, you're up. Good evening, Mr. Mayor, members of the council. Um, as you approved the um, contract for the 2025 pavement rehabilitation project tonight, um, staff has begun working on the debt issue um, that will fund both that [2:38:36] project and the per the equipment certificates to purchase the fire truck. The fire truck was actually approved um at the July 11th, 2023 meeting due to the long lead time in manufacturing. So at that point, you passed res a resolution saying you wanted to place the order and would be issuing um equipment certificates when the truck was going to be completed. [2:39:04] Um staff has been working with Ellers um our municipal adviserss and they prepared an initial um preliminary debt service schedules just for our planning purposes here and in the plan in that um preliminary debt run they used a true interest cost of 3.6643%. [2:39:25] So as we think about those um the true interest cost that is the um market interest rate that for a bond qualified or a bank qualified issue. So that would be we're issuing under $10 million in bonds and with our double A rating and that interest rate was as of March 25th 2025. they added a half a basis point to the um rate at that date to get to that 3.6% just um for if there are any fluctuations in the market between when they did that run and when we sell the bonds and the true interest cost is the actual interest costs of borrowing the funds taking into account the coupon [2:40:11] rates and the underwriters discounts or premiums. So, it's it's all in. Um, as we look at that interest rate, it's really in line with where our interest rates have been on our other recent issues. Um, that 3.6 if that were to be our interest rate that we get. Um, in our 2024A improvement bonds, our true interest cost was 3.42%. In our 2023A bonds for our um public safety facility, we had gotten a 3.72%. So very comparable to where it's been. Um a little bit higher than where our bonds were when we issued them in 2018, but in line. So as we mentioned um [2:40:57] at the beginning of this uh presentation, there are there are two components. So, we'd be issuing improvement bonds uh for the pavement project. The par amount of those bonds is 1,425,000. There's a 15-year life on that bond issue. Uh the financing plan includes a special assessment component for the property owners that benefit from this project. The special assessments have a 15-year term, so that aligns with the 15-year term of our bond. And um our calculations anticipate that there will be $33,000 in assessments. So the city will combine those special assessments that we collect with a property tax levy to [2:41:44] pay these bonds. The annual tax levy will range between about 101,000 and 107,000 through the life of that bond. Um it varies each year. the 2026 tax levy. So, we'd be issuing the bonds now. We then we'd be levying for the amount in 2026 and our first principal payment would be in the beginning of 2027. Um, so the amount that we would levy in 2026 would be 103,531. Um, which is a 34 of a percent increase over our 2025 tax levy. Um, the equipment certificates that would fund [2:42:30] the firetruck purchase have a par amount of 1,5,000 and those have a 10-year life. So, the annual tax levy on the 10-year term ranges between 123,000 and 128,000. Similarly, I looked at the effect of the 2026 tax levy, which uh would be 123,351, which is just under a percent increase. [2:42:57] Um, as we think about where the market has been over the past couple of weeks, there have been some changes. Um, I reached out to Stacy just with Ellers to um, kind of give us some information on those events and see how that would affect our tax issue. [2:43:15] um she reminded me that you know there's that 50 um basis points of the cushion that is um in our interest rates as we look at these numbers to give us just because of these uncertainties that are going on. Um rates will probably be a little volatile between now and the sale date. Um but it's really difficult to quantify what the impact will be as we go. So we'll know more as we go through these weeks to come. We just we don't know that right right now. Um so the Eller staff will stay in contact with us and as we kind of watch those markets. [2:43:56] Um in the end it's really the rates when we do our bond sale. The rates that are there is what the market is willing to pay for our bonds. the city could decide up to the date of the sale to pull the issue if the market was really bad and we didn't feel it was right and then we would resell the bonds at another time. Um that's something to consider knowing that we have a project that we've already agreed to and we have a fire truck that um we know is coming and we're going to be paying for. So, if something were to happen and we did that, we'd need to come up with internal financing to cover the um expenditures [2:44:43] that we had until the date when we were to do the sale of the bonds. Um we do have a reimbursement resol in our resolution that you're passing tonight. there is a reimbursement clause saying that if there are expenditures paid before we get the proceeds that we can reimburse ourselves with the bond proceeds. So, as I mentioned, Ellers will continue to watch the market and be in contact and just keep us up to date kind of where we are on that sale. Um, so after going through all of that, I recommend that the city council adopt the attached resolution. This would authorize Ellers to assist us in preparing for the bond sale. It would establish May 13, 2025 as the meeting [2:45:31] date for considering the bond sale proposal and set May 13, 2025 as the date for awarding the bond sale at that council meeting. We do have Stacy with Ellers here with us tonight so that if you have any further questions kind of about the market or the bonds, she would be able to answer those for us. [2:45:53] Thank you, Miss Kinser. I have a question regarding the equipment certificate funding the fire truck. So, we're using debt to purchase the fire truck, correct? Is that new? Is that the first time we've done that, or is that always kind of been our standard practice to use debt to purchase fire trucks and other pieces of equipment, Mr. Mayor? Um, this would be the second time that we've used debt to purchase a fire truck. We When was when was the la other time? Ballpark. Um 2020 2021 2020 maybe 2020 whenever when we got the latter. [2:46:28] Okay. Very good. Thank you. Yes. Council member Walsh. Well, thank you, Mr. Mayor. I think since Stacy stayed for the whole meeting and listen to all those discussions of trees, I think she should come up here and answer a question. So, I've got a question for her and trees. No, no, about interest rates. Oh, all right. I seriously have a question. The the And I'll talk while you're walking. the the the double A+ rating that we have. Um the first question is it's generic. It's not specific to what we're doing tonight, but what what kinds of things can we do to improve that rating? So, that's that's a good rating, but that we could be AAA, right? Um mayor, council member, that's a great question and one we get often by those that are not AAA clients. [2:47:10] Um you're a little bit you're a little bit limited in in what you can actually do. um because there's certain things that just won't bring you up to AAA and a lot of it's based upon size right of the community that you are. Um it can be some of the wealth indices that you have. So there's things out of your control that you can't do. The things that are in your control you've already done. You've done your long range financial management planning. You've been very good stewards of having a good fund balance when you have good liquidity uh in your community which is great and they would look favorably upon that. So when you look at all the factors, I mean, it's probably the ones that are more out of your control that may be a little bit more difficult to eventually attain that, but it's something we always have the discussion with the rating agencies as we go through that process um about that desire and their perspective on if if and when you will ever attain that AAA. [2:47:56] So, so I guess the follow my followup question probably doesn't work because the answers because the answer you gave, but how much I always struggle with what the benefit the benefit of the higher rating is going to be a lower interest rate which means lower payments over time. You can sort of quantify that I suppose if you if you told us what these what you project the cost would be for a AAA instead of a a double A plus and then sort of you could weigh that against what it would cost us to get the AAA bond rating. But we probably can't even get it anyway. So probably it's not a it's probably a moot question. Well, mayor, council member, it's I think probably over the last five plus years or so, the difference between the basis points between a AAA and a double A um hasn't been overly significant on the short end. So like in the first five years, it's maybe five basis points to [2:48:41] 10. It's when you start to go out further in your debt issuance of 20 years that maybe that spread goes a little bit bigger. So again, it's some savings. It's not overly significant. um past years, other times, recessions, other things. We've seen bigger spreads, but you know, in the past several, it's not been overly significant. Okay, thanks for staying more. See, I started some. [2:49:05] So, the stock market is definitely not the same as the bond market, though they investors way off alternatives. So on the the decision to pull a bond sale, okay, if we hit Black Friday or Black Monday or whatever, are you the entity that's going to advise uh advise us as to whether um hey, this is just not the right time for you to sell your bonds? Um is that your role? And what are the things that you look for? Um because I I don't my gut tells me we haven't seen the last or the worst. Um, but maybe, who knows, how do we prepare ourselves to be in a position to act if [2:49:52] that happens to be the case on the day that we're selling? Uh, mayor, council member, I think just to always remind folks, right, I've been doing this for almost 30 years, right? So, if you look at just the interest rates over time and and Carrie had talked about some in just recent history where you've been at. I mean all of the rates in your borrowing have been well probably you know in that three or under four percent and historically we haven't seen significant changes. It's been a long time since we've seen those really really high interest rates and that's was because it was just different times. It wasn't recessions wasn't other things. So the factors that we look at when we're in these uncertain times and this isn't the first time right that we've had this is that we'll just be watching the market. [2:50:32] So, we're watching the market on a national basis and on the local basis because sales are still happening because at the end of the day, cities still need to capitalize to do projects. Schools still need to capitalize to do projects, counties still need to capitalize to do projects. So, we'll look at that and then we'll have those discussions. But at the end of the day, if your interest rate is 4% or 4.2, that's something that's just a factor that you have to look at because when we can forecast, and I wish we all had that crystal ball that we could tell you with certainty, is it going to be better in 30 days? Is it going to be better in six months? We don't know. [2:51:03] So I know may not give you a lot of I'm not sure that was comforting but that's okay. I'll move the resolution. I have a motion. Do I have a I motion a second? Any further discussion on this? Seeing none, all those in favor say I. Any opposed? Motion carries. Resolution is passed. Thank you, Stacy. Yes. And mayor, if I could just say one thing is sitting through so I've been sitting in council chambers for 30 years through public hearings and all kinds of meetings and what I could say tonight it's been probably one of my most favorite because it's a very passionate issue for folks and how nice everybody was and the levity and like the the couple quotes that I'm going to go back and tell people about that were just funny and and awesome. And I would say, you know, you guys have had lots of meetings. I'm sure you've had people who've been here not been so nice, [2:51:49] right? So, I saw maybe the best of White Bear Lake tonight, but I would say anyone who has to come up and speak to you guys on an issue that's very passionate about, take notes from that group because I think you know how they presented themselves, what they did obviously spoke to you guys and it's again people are very passionate and they they did it in such a nice and dignified way. So, anyway, it was enjoyable to stay. Thank you. I think that's deserving of a AAA bond rating. [2:52:13] Tell the underwriters. Yeah. Charge admission to our future council meetings. Yeah. All right. Item nine, discussion. Nothing scheduled. Item 10, communications from the city manager. Nothing scheduled. Thank you. Oh, um I do not have slides. Um sorry about that. [2:52:29] Um uh just one thing like really hot off the press. Um MSP magazine has featured uh Wiper Lake as the one of their insider guides. So I have a copy for all the council members. Um, huge huge thank you to uh, community members uh, Bill Vousard and Sarah Hansen at Explore White Bear who helped put all of this together. Um, I I attended the launch party before this uh, council meeting tonight and it just it's really impressive and and to hear that, you know, this really well it did start in White Beer Lake in 2017 and they're back here again. So, it was really special. [2:53:06] Um, everybody go out and grab a copy. I know many of our our local businesses will have copies. Um, so just hot off the press there and that's all I have tonight. Thank you. Very good. Thank you. Uh, I'd entertain a motion to adjurnn. Second. All those in favor say I. We're journ.