foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] thank you [Music] foreign [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] thank you [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] and off we go it's all in summary tell you what I'm going to tell you uh we are going to look at the indicators 2022 landed a little bit better and better than we we projected which is good news it's a good thing we actually covered the council recession mandate that you all ask for a workshop so that's the good news it's good stuff uh but the additional funds available we're actually going to hold on to it it's going to help us out in 2025 I'll show you that more in a bit 2023 after about three months revenues are running better than budget uh inflation's still a thing vacancies are still a thing just like we talked about Alaska 2024 and 2025. we've already got a balance 2024 budget that's good news 2025 is not currently balanced and so I'm going to go into that [Music] Revenue funds are two really interesting things that are happening right now all right so let's talk about some economic Educators nearly all of this has come from the weeds of projection that we did get in the last couple of weeks so that's good news uh you saw a lot of this last year as well inflation which was the big buzzword last year it was the ultimate thing that was pretty much all we talked about um it's coming down it's still not to the level where uh about two to three percent level the feds are probably still going to be taking a look at and doing some active matching but it is coming down here in the city can I ask questions yes so we use the Consumer Price Index but when you talk about construction they have a different index and it's way crazy high it's it's tends to move a lot more so it rises a lot and then it drops and it rises and drops where the seat guy you that bad that packet of goods tends to kind of just blow up it's way one so I found this chart up really interesting labor shortage this is National the inflation is National as well um job openings so the black line are the people that are unemployed the red line or the job openings that we have historically you've got more unemployed than you have jobs what's going on right now in 2023 there are two jobs about two jobs for every unemployed person right now in the nation 10 million jobs 6 million unemployed where are they yeah are they good questions I actually asked about that a lot of that's going on in the hospitality at restaurants and such like that that's also where there's still a huge amount of turnover so um that those areas um and it also goes to why are we still having turnovers okay good job well there's two jobs for every personal thing but like geographically is there an issue I because I'll tell you what I don't I don't have that data broken down smaller well I'll see if Leeds has something like that that would be an interesting thing but I do have some anecdotal information here's another one it's kind of a scary thing for the future personal income and savings uh Natalie uh Kobe issue going on there you'll notice personal income tends is still increasing expenditures are still increasing savings is that a level as about as low as it's ever been right so so when you think about the future you think about home sales and you think about those things people are spending their money naturally it's kind of a scary thing for the next whatever whatever next is coming up because people are people are already spending their savings unemployment recovery if you remember excuse me excuse me if you remember this from last year uh Colorado was one of the strong ones 10th strongest right now we're very much in the middle a lot of states are we're slowing down and a lot of states are speeding up we're still in an okay area what kind of employment change is zero to three percent but not in that not in the strong world that we were seeing our rank among other states if you remember to start from last year we were in the top 10 almost as well uh dropping off a little bit GDP growth is still great eight employment growth is interesting 49th what an employment Road and Leeds they gave us this presentation they were talking about it at one month we were actually 50th and what it means we we've been pretty strong and I think Colorado fared pretty well through covered where other states had a harder time it's compared to last they're now catching on it's compared to last year correct one year change reporting a population growth uh so coming up uh We've Fallen a little compared to other states in terms of personal incomes still doing pretty darn well in average pay and labor force participation but other states are catching up so that so we're not we're not on fire like we were last year not on this kind of interesting taxable sales from last year to this year we were exactly average boom turn to all the other cities what you're seeing here that you didn't see that you remember last year there were cities that had a really hard time coming out of Copic Denver we don't care I know Denver's way over there so that's why but we're right about where we need to be in terms of taxable sales what what's wrong I mean I yeah I questioned the experts um Colorado Springs how could that be here with all the girls that they're having them translates to cells they're buying their houses in comparison right that's right and you gotta remember so the comparison people left Denver where you stopped going to work now they're like going back you're starting to see more people back into some of these places where they weren't going during covet or it's like Colorado Springs probably stayed more consistent just like we did so that doesn't necessarily reflect the base that's its percentage growth that's just a percentage and also I'm going to say it's a it's a point lines compared two points in time right who knows who knows you know over over time how that works but but I did find it interesting we were just right in the middle all right before I go to 2022 any questions about any of the uh economy economic all right it's a good question 18 months right 18 months it's almost 18 months uh that actually is a really I've got some information I don't know if it's going to turn into a recession but we're seeing some interesting headwinds in different places but let's talk about 2022 2022 actually was was pretty good um an additional 6.4 million dollars in operating reserves almost all due to uh we got some sales and and auto use taxes all right remember that number that's okay that's 0.4 million dollar number I'm going to bring it up here in a little while good news we fully funded that five percent processional Reserve that that you'll ask for in the October Workshop we fully funded the table Reserve we've only funded the policies so we're in a pretty good we're in a pretty good spot in terms of our funds available and we've got a little bit of money at the end of the year expenditures were a little bit higher than uh than our projection a couple things the capital transfer was more a little bit more money for Capital I'm going to talk about the risk fund you will it's in your supplemental this year where we moved some money over to the restaurant to help it out but on the other side uh last year we projected to have some significant spending and retention and recruitment we talked with you about that a lot last year all the different ideas to keep people um working uh we spent less that we've projected in there you all saw the spring supplemental there's some reappropriating budget that wasn't fair but long story short uh we're in a good we're in a good spot other fun going on the capital projects fund Revenue 2.2 that was the best of the trouble of other spots of strength a risk fund was significantly over budget that's why you all saw a spring supplemental for that and I'm going to get it I'm going to dig into that more you can over assemble slides look toward the end it's what we're seeing there and curve but not reported claims so these are actuaries telling us hold your beard there's something going on that you just don't know about yet on the wrist side things are going to pop these numbers have been huge for three straight years now and that's not that's kind of worrisome because not only are we spending more they're saying what you don't even know about or anything is more what is an example of that an incurred but not reported uh a claim a workman's comp claim that we haven't heard of yet okay A a uh an issue going on out in the world a lawsuit going on that we don't even know something happened yet well if we don't know it uh if you want you try to get into the mind of an actuary uh that's scary um but so but let me let me put it this way it actually will go and sit there and go people are living longer when people are living longer if they've got to workman's coffee issue that workman's comp case is going to cost more right workman's comp let's and I'll put it in another thing that I've heard recently uh if somebody gets hurt they're more likely to do a full body workman's comp case whole body works with crop cases cost a whole lot more than I wrote that way so there's a way that an ivnr works is so they tell us hey you've got this liability out there so then Terry and the accountants and our risk manager will put something on the books to recognize that liability uh I think what you're saying is but we don't yeah who do you pay right if you don't know who do you pay we recognize the liability and then what I think what Kurtz also hasn't talked about yet but what's also concerning is there's been years in the past where what happens is the the actuaries will come in and go good news it wasn't as bad as we thought and you'll actually get a positive adjustment on a curve but not recognize they'll go hey you can reduce your liabilities on the books so that's a good news story and I will tell you that typically you know I'm in the city 15 years you know you get two or three years where you get you out of your liability then you get a correction to eat a little bit later we haven't seen that positive correction in a number of years eight years and that's since Jason was a locally budget officer right yeah so um so that's that that's the other thing that's a little concerning to us so it's Greg said it's not only our premiums going up but you know we're not seeing that corresponding reduction in liability so it's it's just that Trend we have to make you guys aware of it that something we'll continue to monitor our Risk Managers spending a lot of time on that they spend it with the student Attorney's office we're not just writing checks because actuaries tell us but we do have to write uh other other funds that kind of uh and ended up better than our projections Wastewater approach development golf funds also did pretty well a couple of minute under development review Recreation water funds a lot of that's time actually actually timing related so water fund actually did a capital projects forward that that wasn't projected so it's not that it's a bad news thing it's just a different types in there but overall but he did pretty darn good coming through 2022 so let's talk about the revenues our current projections mostly good news to the first through the first quarter of sales tax is up by 8.3 million use taxes franchise fees Auto revenues are all doing pretty darn good so far capital capital is interesting um bmut had its best month ever in January not just as best January ever its best month ever uh to the tomb that I'm actually a little bit worried about it when we get uh bmut sometimes the money that comes into US isn't our money sometimes it's an incentivized thing so we've got to just make sure that it's that it's ours to spend um January was great February was blah March was down 35 percent bmut does that historically we've been through an odd period where I've been kind of strength on strength but being UT tends to have these big dips and falls it's not all good news fights and perpetrators are down intergovernmental is down uh and other other revenues are having a little bit of time to say continue weakness but pretty good can I just ask regarding intergovernmental is that because we have all that coven money coming from the safe events and then it's not going to be coveted money um because our covered money that we got in we were in a different Fund in gifts and grants and so it's not that it's small things it's it's going to be uh I'll I can go find out the details of it it's it's not much and it's probably also timing when we get a money when we get a check from another place sometimes it comes in in March and sometimes it comes in in April in the general fund a pretty good start for the year March was great 15.2 percent I will tell you what the leads data that I'm going to show you here in a little bit January and February are baked into the numbers and March is not so that's kind of good news for us I'm going to put that in my pocket for for the future you'll see this this negative three percent that was a one-time check when I when I come to your Council meetings and I say one-time money for one-time purposes we received a one-time check in December of 2021 that we didn't get in December of 2022 which is why you've got a negative as a reminder there's a delay in so when Greg's showing you December that's December collections which would be November sales correct so January is our December or holiday shopping season primarily so sort of January we ate a lot of attention to it that that is an excellent segue to holiday sales well well done uh growth in holiday sales what we do is we will take the uh the the December and January which is November and December do all shopping in November December and we look at it together uh Marketplace facilitator jumped up last year was crazy good um this year it's dropped off a lot of that drop-off is that one-time check that I was talking about but we grew on a really really strong base to that absolutely right it's not all bad news story it's just no yeah all right so let's talk about the leaves projection uh it's a scholarly examination of Aurora revenues they look at our sales they look at our use tax they look at our property tax with all sorts of economic inputs personal income retail trade GDP employment vehicle sales Construction uh very scholarly their model actually what does it takes the national economy drive we'll see what it says to drive the Colorado commie which drives the Aurora economy shots looking at all this all the data that's that the is out there has a lot of what they do is is looking with the Moody's Analytics so they'll take all this data and then we'll take these Moody's Analytics which are which are just various ways of looking at a at a possible outcome of Revenue and saying all right it might look like this it might look better it might look worse they give us three different projections an optimistic a Baseline and a pessimistic what we have done recently and then what happens is that for each one of those there's a band in there so you'll see the high and low forecast is the high level forecast for the Baseline and so what they've done is that okay Moody's has said this looks like a reasonable Baseline thing they'll take all our data and put it in a Moody's Baseline and then they say oh Moody's has a pessimistic one so they'll put that in there and so that's what that's looking at we're choosing to uh to use the Baseline just like we did last year now Baseline what a baseline means it's a 50 50 coin flip half the time it's going to be better half the time it's going to be worse I don't like looking at that in terms of City revenues so we tend to give it a haircut uh well what we do is we'll take 10 off the growth so if their growth is say you're going to go five percent I'm gonna put in 4.5 percent because I I you all need for me to win we need to do better than the budget and not just have to prep our economic be at coin play so that's that's why um it doesn't change the story it just needs the outcomes a little bit so they can't be wrong because they just give themselves these are wrong every time is all right so their projection comparison to what we had last year to this year uh new 2023 money all right so looking in 2023 11.8 million dollar more operating at 3.9 million more in capital if you remember from last year 2023 was going to be our low year three percent and then it was going to grow a lot after that so that was going to be kind of our Our rough year and then coming back out well it kind of just changed the line so now 2023 is not as bad but we're not going to have that growth in 2024 that they were going to allow us last year so we're going to gain some of the money but then not grow as much the 2024 is going to look a little you know not as good and I'll show you those numbers in a bit into the future we're uh dropping off in 2025 and Beyond this feels right so like I said they already had our January and February numbers baked into this we feel like we're in this area where we're making more in the general fund and here's the way it looks 10 million more than our 2023 projection but then it drops back off a little bit because we're not seeing that huge growth we're in the budget book data set up or six now they have 3.9 so it drops off a little bit before growing back somewhat remember four percent of all sales tax bills over the cpf the rest days in the general fund so I broke it out that way great question yes so do they look at our population growth when they I mean you could say sales tax why not but if the population goes up that should correspond that's right they they do they look at kind of all of it um hey look at our personal income the retail trade the GDP our employment they kind of they kind of look at all of it and do a statistical model for the city of Aurora in terms of population growth We're not gonna we're trying to limit today but one of these monitors we've seen a Slowdown in housing starts seven percent interest rates will do that so we're so in terms of population growth we're going to say moderate a little bit yeah until and mortgage rates are going down and I've got some more information here in a couple of slides when specifically when I'm going to talk about building material use tax because that that drives the building until you stops and that's kind of a bad news story but this is where our sales tax there's no recession projected that's normal cannot projected recession we just have to be prepared for right you all helped out with that we've got a recession reserved property tax liens gives us the property tax we say thank you very much but it is kind of moved for reward because we're over the table limit Tabor allows you to grow by uh growth plus inflation last year we um because of inflation was so strong last year we actually got a benefit out of that because the the Tabor limit allowed us to grow by more than what we were projecting before this year that's not the case we kind of have that have that inflation kind of baked into our numbers no significant difference to our to our projection this year and by the way here a little bit I know that all of you are now receiving your property tax bills um yeah um I'm going to talk about that here in a second because they because it kind of goes along with uh with Building Material use taxes and some some charts that I didn't put in the earlier thing I just found them yesterday so I've clunked them in here but I find them interesting all right Auto use tax Auto use tax had a monster monster 2021 and then kind of held held the ball in 2022. um anecdotally uh Jackie is kicking her daughter out of both the state um I went to go look for a car and couldn't find very many new cars lots of used cars very expensive and 10 interest 10 interest on the used cars Honda had no new cars on the last one and for you to have one um I'm I'm bearish I've been they they've beaten our numbers for quite a while I'm kind of bearish on that leads uh is projecting that it's just going to keep going up from there I I need to see it um I think that our number is going to be somewhere in the middle but but I'm a little bit bearish when I think about kicking my kids out of the state whether they can afford that in the car yeah all right Capital use taxes uh we're seeing some decreases in building care use tax all right so our our previous budget over there there's our leads new projection you'll notice it's got a down year in 2024. correction in 2024 and then we start growing out of that Corrections uh into the future and they're using residential and Commercial yes yep and I'll talk to about I'll talk to that here in just a second uh other equipment use taxes are uh doing better than the previous budget so they kind of mixed together but you'll see that there's some there's some things we'll have to balance in the capital budget fund so why would why are we having a correction this this wasn't in your previous slides I just found this yesterday and looking at um different counties and what they were showing when they do an assessment an appraisal a reassessment they look at the fourth quarter of Any Given year of every other year so they did it in 2020 YouTube 2020 and they compared to Q2 of 2022. if you all go into the way back machine where you were what you were thinking about in Q2 of 2022 this was the time when you could sell your house in one day for fifty thousand dollars over asking right it is since come down and this is this is a collaboration I got this from the Arapahoe County website that right there between the very Zenith that's the other thing why property taxes are so high right now this is the very top today assessment is based off of foreign one quarter later you've dropped fifty thousand dollars in radius one bag right ten percent so should have sold the house it's not just here this is everywhere um bad news so so uh Aurora isn't going to see any of this money we're already over the table limit so any growth there is in Revenue it just increases that table 11 refund right you can understand how that works so we've set our tax limit at 8.605 so what happens is there's a taper limit as Greg said where every year we're going out and calculating what the paper limit is based off of a point in the past we went to voters and we're what we call partially de-proof so we went back and used that as our starting point and then has been allowed to grow every year for population growth and inflation so we're allowed to bring in more money every year based on population growth and inflation so every year we go out and calculate it and if we're under that limit we keep all the revenue if we're not what we do is we do a temporary so we're you know if we left it at 8.605 we'd have brought in money more than that so what we do is we calculate hey we're two and a half million dollars over the table limit so what does that calculate to so then we essentially say G for this year we're only going to charge 8.25 not 8.605 in order to reflect that the amount of property tax we bring in is only equal to the table list so our residents are going to see a slightly that's right in our world last year they paid 7.9 as opposed to the 8.605 yeah where at this point are we at in terms of being over that table like how far right now we're about uh two to three to four million dollars a year annually with these numbers uh uh with these numbers right here you're probably looking at maybe 11 million over but once again so if we if we're working all of the tax we could this year yeah we would we would be at about 11 million dollars we're not going to we're giving it back but the increase Statewide will be about four billion yeah but even though we're giving back a little bit in the percentage we are still getting more money because the valuations were we won't because we're already over the table winners so we've got we've got this line that we can grow and it doesn't really matter how high I mean so so if you raise that you're not raising my my allowance real quick just because it's you're funny okay so we're going to bring in more money in 2024 and property taxes than we did in 2023 but we're only bringing in that amount Allowed by Tabor which is population inflation the assessed valuation has nothing to do with it DSS valuations we're hearing between 30 and 40 percent increase that's none of that is driving our property tax increase it is merely proper it is merely inflation and population growth that's that's for us yep once you get into school districts Metro districts County it gets further complicated because if they've issue General obligation debt and in Metro districts that's what the bulk of it typically is the way that's supposed to be is self-leveling so that the what they're supposed to do is set the mill Levy to bring in the amount of money necessary to service the debt that's been issued so if evaluations go through the roof the property tax Mill Levy for debt should self-adjust so that they bring in the amount of money they need to service the debt on the operations side of the house it will be a windfall likely for Metro districts counties and school districts anybody that's debused okay and it is it's just an interesting point I just have to make Barbara we don't see the benefit of the property tax increase but we'll see the detriment when everybody's paying their bills and so now they're not going to buy houses or buy stuff right so that's that's a little thing that's that's annoying on the back of my in the back of my mind as as all of you are paying more property tax now that Aurora's kind of been a lose-lose situation with that and when did we become become partially deeper we actually gave away three meals with the property tax to de-bruce our sales and use so we're almost almost completely boosted our sales and use taxes so now net net this is the five year growth over the last projection and the general fund and the cpf uh you'll notice where we've got over time in the cpf we're going to be okay we've got some Downs we've got some UPS I've got to go through because I've got to balance every year so we've got to make sure that we have the right amount of money and the fact that we ended 2022 better than our projection helps so we're going to be able to cover some of these shortfalls we'll have a little bit of money in the future but not like the not like in the past all right felt like when we have five million a year to go spend on things uh that's not the case here coming up in this five year plan so the risk to the projection conflation is still a thing it's down but it's still a thing the economy the Third Bank issue that we've just heard about right three of three banks have failed is is a scary thing that savings rate number that I was showing you before uh worries me um and being all nerdy but right now we're in what's called an inverted deal curve where you can make more money on short terms and long term which is a leading indicator of a possible recession so good news is we did have that five percent uh set aside in the balancing toolbox we do have some money we could have covered two of the three recessions we've had with that with that dollar amount the one that Jackie caused here the Great Recession uh we we won't build a handle that so yes excuse me that was mine remember I showed up and then everything I did that too I shouldn't submit everything all right from the recession looks more like yes so so the leads recession which I didn't put up into this thing they gave us three different uh we would be in the to the tune up of about 25 to 30 million dollars in one year yeah it's a scary looking deep so I don't like to think about it and the dollar strength that you set aside for that Reserve yeah that the reserve is sitting at 25 million so any more questions about the revenues for a digging an expenditure just real fast all right this chart looks a little bit like last year's chart a year-to-date offering a slightly under budget we're still having quite a bit of a of we're still having some turnover we're still putting money toward um overtime and special pay and such like that because of the uh turnover that we're having this number was much larger last year now it's a little bit more tempered so we're better but we've still got we've still got that going on internal awareness if you have any questions Ryan's here and can answer everything you never want to know uh turnover is is starting to come down it's trending down from the high point right there we've still got quite a few vacancies we want this number to be less but at least it's going in the right direction over time and I found this one to be an interesting uh interesting comparison where we've been and where we are now but compared to State local and Federal in the private sector who are kind of catching up so we used to be much less than everybody else we're kind of catching up but we're still less our current bad year was still less than the state local and the federal and those of you in the private sector with your uh probably with your 50 to 100 turnover hiring a hiring people to serve food right it's it's still it's still pretty bad right now do you want to watch 25 bucks an hour oh right yes so when you when when our city or the state goes into a little bit more of a recessionary period is that better for us in terms of less turnover better recruitment because people feel safer than being maybe in the private Market yeah I mean I've worked at a few municipalities and generally local government has a little bit more security and comfort um it is the bright side of a recession that people tend to stand in place because they have a job right so that's the whole package of benefits and retirements and less likelihood of layoffs especially full-time positions yeah so let's talk about our plan for the ongoing operating funds we're going to balance 2024 we're going to get close in 2025 the things we have to do we have to balance the previous performer it was already out of balance tune of 2.2 and 3.5 million of respectively for 24.25 we've got to cover the loss of opt starting in 2025. uh there's a couple of issues the risk fund we're going to put another million dollars from the general fund over the respond on an ongoing basis and once again I'll talk about that at the end and then our health insurance uh is over our projection the current estimates early estimates is that we set aside five percent for health insurance and if the early numbers are coming in at like 9 11 something like that [Music] um early early numbers but it's we're estimating about a million and a half in the general fund so I'm taking all this into account I'll show you the performer here in a second uh ongoing effects from the spring supplemental there's about 1.7 million dollars mostly people in uh in the public safety areas in HR a little bit of Public Safety I.T mandate money um some things that were in in the pro forma but we're taking care of right now with all that we're going to have a balanced 2024 and out of balance 2025 so we're really not looking at amendments when you look at your budget book this year it's going to be kind of boring outside of outside of what's already the pro formal which is basically Public Safety there's not we're not even doing a service a slower uh Senate this year we're not we're not offering that because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to add to add things in 2024 knowing that 2025 is out of balance can I ask a question about how far out of balance is 4.4 million dollars and I'll show you that in the bonus media slide for one-time funds we're going to save that 6.4 million dollars that we gained in 2022 to help us uncover our 2025 shortfall we're going to fix the risk fund funds available and that's about it that's about all we're doing so here's your proformal the white lines or is what was in our proforma previously right and you'll see the loss of opt and then the additional leads Revenue that I talked about before on the user side the white line is what was in the previous performa plus the spring supplemental and then the Gotta Have list I gotta have list is what I just talked about the help the risk fund the health insurance some I.T Public Safety uh spending and helping out the risk funding in there doesn't this look like this every single time though that you know we project out with with the deficits but then we and I don't know if it's population growth or whatever that we hope we tend to kind of come out okay and oftentimes we do that's right this number used to be nine million dollars Okay negative nine million right right so now it's negative four million so we're going in the right direction even though we've had some things even though we're seeing uh weaknesses out in the world we're definitely going in the right direction here so I would say that we're we're going there yes I would say yes and it's because we're conservative we've heard Greg talk about the fact that we don't we take a little bit Yeah so we have protect your growth we take a little bit of the edge off that and the other thing is we do keep an eye towards towards that second year right so if we added probably everything we needed [Music] that's right vacancy savings right like how many vacancies this is really not helping us vacancy savings is right now we have a factor in there to allow for normal turnover they can see savings really only helps us in our current year we are not using vacancy savings to balance the long term this assumes that we are staying fully staffed with except for water weapons are we historically were recently historically have been over that but we'd like to hold that in our in our toolbox for in case time don't you get mad we're going to need that money in any given year right so so there you go not it doesn't look bad it looks better than what it did before but we're not there yet and we have a year to figure it out we're going to take that 6.2 million dollars and we're going to buy ourselves a year we're going to cover this with one development funds available in the capital if I've got to balance those five-year plans though there's some negative numbers in those years I've got to figure that out we're going to fix a few needs but not much else I would say that that capital budget fund is going to be kind of a boring budget as well morning isn't always bad though any questions before I dig into my final two funds all right yes question which is we have various plans that Council has put forward and adopted the Immigrant integration plan the housing plan um that we really have so far not funded and it sounds like we can continue to not be a lot of fund under the current budget is that correct basically so any any anything that isn't currently in my projection in the pro forma that's an ongoing spend that number worse if we didn't illuminate opt ion 25 2026 would be balances any other questions but we continue if leads continue is off as it's been so far this year continues to grow they will be balanced let's let's grow with it let's go four months into the air at the same rate and again yeah one percent of Revenue is about five million dollars we can be 99 right and one percent of Revenue that's that's why this I don't want that uh I don't want that number to get worse but I also am saying no reason to cut right yet let's let's let's make sure we'll see the whites of their eyes before we have to do anything scary let's uh jump on a point to cut some raccoons race that also means we're not really investing in the housing plan that we passed years ago we're not actually following through with the Immigrant immigration plan Workforce Rec Center is not going to get built back is awesome all righty so I promised I'd tell you a little bit of nerdy stuff about the risk fund um funds available it's taking a hit in the last couple of years confidence levels so the way it works is that the actuaries will come up and say we think that your list of issues that you have both known and unknown is going to be worth x amount of dollars if we were really really risk-averse we'd go put all that money into a low pot so we have everything figured out that's probably a little too conservative um so we put over a different amount and that Al CL claims table that's the idea in artery that I was talking about but we're putting money and we're in this claims payable and then we have funds available right there which gives us our total funds and we get compare it to 100 confidence is you'll notice we've been around 75 to 80 percent for a long time we're at 67 and by the way we're at 67 percent even though we sent over 2.4 million dollars in the 2022 in this supplemental you all just looked at that number would have been about three hundred thousand dollars so it's so it's kind of a scary time um to get back to 75 75 is just a it's just a nice round number there's no rule uh set rule that will confidence level but if we wanted to get back up into more like a 75 it would take about three million dollars and so we have that in our plan to move three million dollars of the general fund over to the risk fund why don't we just try to reduce our risk that's a that's a great question uh and I believe we're looking we're we're constantly looking at trying to be better in terms of risk um the the and that's because you know somebody hurts themselves on the job I mean I I we do a lot of safety training right we do a lot of safety training and a workman's comp actually kind of stays still so it's but do we also do things um to reduce the cost of whatever medical treatment you know what the medical cost would have been with I don't you know just I mean we have a lot of programs yeah there's a lot of programs and we even have a program um with the support of so many different departments and on-site vectors Physical Therapy Clinic um getting them in-house getting them back to work a lot quicker right so we're doing a lot of measures to mitigate that that piece of it that's just one example but there's a couple things that are a little bit outside of our control so so total costs are up 78 since 2019. in the restaurant uh premiums of double okay um does that occurred but not reported is up over 140 percent so those those things we don't know about yet are driving a lot of our spending right now 2022 is nearly 2.7 million it's been over 2 million dollars for three years now and Jason's right back a long time ago that used to be one year you'd have to put in a little when you get to take some out a little takes them out this is a completely seismic shift from what we've seen even five years ago if you look back 10 years the average in 2013 to 27 ibnr happens about five percent of the total risk fund now it's about 15 of the total risk fund right so what we're doing is we're going to add a million dollars that's already baked into the pro forma that I showed you uh I'm going to cover the increased cost we're going to put some one-time money into it and hopefully that's going to solve this on the long run we're going to be watching this but I wanted to let you all know that that we're we're going to be working through it any questions on that for those all right my last little piece of news uh marijuana tax revenue fund we're seeing some issues with Revenue right the fact matter is this is average market rate unprocessed retail marijuana wholesale prices slow as they've ever been right let's go smoking so uh which means that our revenues are dropping off well it's because they're selling it on the streets again because marijuana has been taxed so heavily that it's like 1990s again they're selling it on the streets oh that's exactly right I own bars I know what's happening because it's taxed so heavily they're not going to go to dispensers anymore by it they're buying it on the streets council member yeah I see her our sales tax has been dropping off recently we don't know where the bottom is uh and we still have some funds available we don't know where the bottom is but we're going to be watching this oh that's how we find a couple of our rec centers right yeah a couple rec centers we do some Transportation with this [Music] we're going to work on a long-term balancing of this fund but we've got to look at it we've got to make sure that we understand where the when revenues are decreasing like that we've got to figure out what the future holds where the bottom is the good news is um in our previous projection we were actually adding the funds available we don't think that's going to happen anymore but we've got funds available sitting there we've got to look into the future um we're probably not going to see additional funds available into the future we think that we can handle this we've got some funds available sitting there uh but what we're looking at is no additional spending in this fund at this point in time until we figure out what the long-term implications of the decrease in the revenue is going to be uh and I know that that's that's been kind of the uh the playpen money for for different ideas we're probably going to need to take a year Hiatus and make sure that we understand where where this fund is in the long term but we promise we're going to do our work and it'll remain solvent throughout the factory five yes are we going to stand up the amendment 64 committee again completely since the since um the marijuana enforcement division is another finance department all right Supply main question for you do you have any other questions uh regarding anything we've talked about today well I will tell you this we've got a plan there's a lot of things we don't know yet um we don't actually have a personal services projection we do we do a new one every year and so we've got to make sure we we understand that but we think we're going in the right direction and are you okay with the ongoing recommendations the one time the capital what we're doing with the risk funding marijuana fund are you okay with what we're seeing right now I mean I'm pretty concerned actually about ongoing recommendations that we not fund a lot means but I also don't see that you have much options yeah all right anyone else all right thank you very much for letting me come and spend some Saturday with you today foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] thank you thank you [Music] [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] thank you [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] thank you foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] thank you [Music] [Music] thank you [Music] [Music] thank you foreign [Music] you thought you were done with me but you're not uh we are looking at Council outside if you remember we set aside three million we spent 300 000 of it at the October Workshop uh we came up with ideas and Concepts from all of you to start sending the remainder um I think that I've got a lot of good news right here so no good news number one by your decisions facts that are in here the decision tools seem to have worked um we've reached quite a bit of consensus the vast majority of you voted on projects that had consensus wow and the majority of you had an item on here they've got consensus right so uh I know that that we've got 15 minutes set aside for this I think that I could make it faster so so the winners are in green up here and on there uh the ones and and the votes you'll see the boats in the in the second column over anything that had six or more votes from all of you I called it consensus and in several days you had severe consensus eight nine ten people voting for for an item uh what you'll see on this list of all of all the things that have at least six votes you've got 1.45 million dollars of the 2.7 million in here and you've got at least six boats for those for these items you still have about 1.25 million dollars left to spend right but we've got all year to do it one thing I noticed uh that came out of this was that the good ideas didn't stop coming right so even though I put a time limit in there after a while there was another project and another project and then there was one even just this week that came in from like it's kind of too late for this but what I'd like to do if you're okay with it anything that's ingrained uh stack will start running with these projects that you all voted on we still have 1.25 million dollars left and we'll do this again in a couple months or maybe in the fall and try to spend the other 1.25 million dollars we'll do it again just like we did here you give you give us numbers everything on here can stay unless you want to come off what do you think yeah my suggestion um would be because I did want to talk a little bit about the radar speed vaccines because I do see that we have consensus there but I did have a maybe an alternative proposal for that the radar signs are pretty ineffective they don't really change behavior that much so but I do like the idea of utilizing the spinal trafficking so would we be able to utilize it for traffic cushions and things like that yeah so the thinking behind it was the council member could work with the public works department to address one of the items on the list because they have a list of like 110 identified locations for Traffic calming oh yeah because the summary that we got just that specification so it sounds like you're a minimal okay okay perfect yeah yes um I see that we got five votes for the Murphy Creek um sidewalks are currently no sidewalks in this neighborhood I was just wondering since we're 1.2 million uh since we still have 1.2 million I was just wondering if we could just do another quick consensus and see if that goes to six votes they're walking in the dirt people so they're walking down the streets it's about 800 linear feet the west side of Flat Rock there are two connecting Town Homes existing residential the fire station is right there approximately or less a sidewalk here and a sidewalk here dirt and like a ton of homes a town home Community the Housing Community the fire station and there's nothing connecting I looked at this area on the satellite though like there's no services or destinations there it's just it's residential and it's all around the Murphy Creek Golf Course which I'm curious as to why because I think the golf course given to the cities I think I put that question in there yeah is good so we don't know why the sidewalk that did not get installed years ago they didn't install it and we don't know why it will provide a nice path for people that are walking around the neighborhood for exercise and stuff it's kind of adjacent to the golf course where there's some trails and things also but it will provide a good connection in that area and it also includes the curbside Landscaping to match what's uh on each end of it kind of sounds good a question is there a social Trail there now yes there it is what do you mean I'm sorry what is your social trouble it's like the dirt is trodden down where people live so there's a lot of people that walk yeah I mean they've run down the dirt so people are trying to walk and there's no that's missing this whole big piece that's missing exactly and inside is the golf course the golf course is a little bit north of where this social Trail is this is it is developed and we don't know why the developer did not install the sidewalk so it's not the Metro District's responsibility no and there was a home builder that came in with an option um but they since backed out I think with the housing Airway it is right now um so this would just be getting that sidewalk in to make that connection um and I don't know about the status of the time enter districts yeah so if a developer came into would they be yes so could we do this if we fund it and then a developer comes in couldn't they pay us back we'd have to work through the Metro District or through the developer out okay further uh okay is there uh okay so we have a proposal on the floor for um how much will this fall it's 606 000 and right now we still have 1.2 left is there objection um I wanted to talk about the repurposing folks now that there's a a remainder amount in folks would support that but I don't know if there were any other items that didn't get like the full amount or that folks wanted to discuss so so I just don't know what's on the board you know some folks might be waiting to see what other questions do would everybody be okay to follow Greg's you know suggestion and let's if we can wait till the next quarterly uh workshop and then where people have this chance to really look at these issues and then make a decision it's only it's only three months away is that your suggestion it's hard for us to do this again everything that's on the list stays on the list that didn't already get funded so your your items with five votes you go around and you get one more vote then it gets funded and the next time we do this so whatever the battle says yeah I think that makes sense councilman yeah I generally am okay with that the only issue is repurposing APS money so they went through really good they're going through an RFP process to repurpose the schools that were shut down through our Public Schools so that request cannot wait three months um otherwise I'm okay um also it is green it's not yellow yeah but just for the the full amount yeah does that make sense well I'm sorry what was it funded at right now there's there were there was a variability so there was the low side of 250 the high side of 500 000 but eight people eight of you voted for 250 000 and two of you quoted five hundred thousand and I guess I would just ask it's already great right so it's not a five vote but if folks now that there is a deficit some places that they only put it at half because they were trying to allocate their Monies to everything but now that there's a deficit they'd be willing to support a higher amount but it already has six folks or the amount of tenants do we know the actual cost because we're just kind of throwing out 250 to 500 for something we don't even know is really going to happen yeah so um it's a proposal it's one of the final proposals um through Village exchange center to repurpose and reprogram the Sable and Paris Elementary Schools um and so it's they're not sure if it's they're still in process but we told them that we would consider um this conversation at the budget conversation so their process has been trying to taking account if the city would work with Village exchange center to support their proposal if I could just I don't think that so APS has made a decision to close those schools and now the question is repurposing those yep but I think they have an RFP out they do oh so they not made a decision yeah so we should not um so one of the proposals is contingent on a potential partnership with the city of Aurora to support the proposal so that's where the 250 500 000 comes into play do we know what it's being repurposed because I don't I would want to know what it's being repurposed to before allocating more money I mean I think I voted to put 250 but yeah yeah um it's a pretty robust proposal but essentially they're trying to keep it in use for the the general public we're trying to see if we can support their process by uh potentially getting keeping the the park space or Green Space there um as like a city you know space um so theoretically somebody could buy the land and do whatever they want are they with it our interest in engaging with the village exchange center is they want to do what they do um with working with different Faith communities different immigrant and Refugee communities providing different office space they have very quickly outgrown their current location so they're trying to provide more office space I'm trying to so work with them they sell their current one to move into this one and make I mean if they would get money from the film no no so these are the safeguards that we would put into any sort of like agreement is we would want to maintain the right of first option if they did decide to sell we would also ask them to either dedicate or keep open the lawn or grass space as a like a city facility instead of it just being for the village exchange center so the neighbors can use that as like a park so there would be safeguards in there to support whatever proposal but we haven't established that because they haven't even decided that that's the proposal so and I think Colorado well my question is what is aps's contribution financially to refurbish these facilities like why is it just on us what is their contribution I don't think it's just that's a good question I think it's just on us I think they're they put out the RFP to determine options on what they're going to do with those properties so they have not answered that question yet I think they're they were they did a betting process to see kind of what was what were the best options and now they're betting I think the top three or four options um with Community you know kind of seeing if um piece of funding comes through have they have the UPS committed to any funding once our pay process is done like has ACS said we're going to contribute I could go to councilmember Lawson so the councilman I just have a question because I know someone I mean you're saying that you're putting up a village exchange center but there's some other organizations that are competing for this because I know one that someone that came to me about it yeah same thing so but you're kind of putting it it's like it's going to be Village exchange we don't know yet yes so okay let me let me clarify okay I was approached by a few folks as well okay I actually think there's some really great proposals I obviously really like Village exchanges as well so yeah but the original request was from Village exchange so to honor that that was kind of the original intent but depending on who um um so I think that would just be kind of honoring the initial intent but if we're supporting kind of the acquisition of this process or the land it might be something that we could consider for other the winning organization as well so it could be a hold you know like a hold on the budget until we figure out who is the the final finalist of that process and then you know come back to council if it's something other than the village exchange center because who else would like this foreign thanks mayor um yeah I to kind of wrap this conversation up a little bit my recommendation is we fund what's on here that was voted for we've had this information for weeks and additional funding we can talk about at our next workshop and carry the items over we have additional monies left for those but um the purpose of this and voting in advance and all these things was really so we didn't get into a conversation about advocating for our specific and I I understand what you're trying to say councilman Rio but at the same time the purpose was so we weren't advocating for all of our individual projects because otherwise then I out of fairness I think everybody should get an opportunity to do that and we'll be here until nine o'clock tonight so my recommendation is we proceed with what Greg proposed fund the items that received six or more votes and the rest can carry over to our next Workshop is there is there a objection to that oh just one quick thing we already perfect quick what if we just did a hundred thousand dollars for a study of the sidewalk and the design design [Music] yes [Music] of course um so if my question is if they were not to win the RFP then that would go back to the spot yeah okay my understanding from the staff expectations again that what will happen is once we know the winners of that process we will then enter into you all have set money aside here and then any agreement with them whoever that winner is your to the points here we would come back to council but what that okay yeah and if if they want to Workshop The Proposal with you all between the you know over the next three months like I I didn't realize that y'all hadn't seen anything about it you know what I mean so that can be something that Village exchange center workshops with individual council members to let you know more about the project if they want to bring back you know another whatever in three months so I'm totally okay with the 250 now I'm just okay okay so um let's see thanks Greg great thank you any other questions okay uh item number four Metropolitan football stadium District youth funding Sheriff I think um [Music] all right welcome morning my name is one of the community engagement coordinator at the Housing and Community Services and I'm here to provide you guys an update on the Denver Broncos funding for youth activities or dream big for Aurora youth ICD College project so just as a reminder the funding for this project came from the sale of the Denver Broncos there was some legislation put in place initially when the stadium was built that the team was ever sold we would get a kickback of the funds that we put in and so Aurora's share of this funding is about 3.8 million dollars and it is designated for youth funding our youth programming or youth activities so our team was cast with coming up with the community engagement process for this project so in December we came to you all in a stirring a study session they talked about our community engagement plan for this project which looked like this so this is the original plan that we had brought to you in December um and for the most part we pretty much stuck to this plan throughout the engagement process so the project timeline in October of 2022 um Deputy city manager Roberto Venegas Network Department directors and managers who serve youth directly to talk about funding priorities and then in December we you guys for study session like I just mentioned and then in February or February 21st we launched toothpick for Omarion and then that project was initially set to end on March 31st but we ended up extending the project through April 21st to get some more feedback from the community and I'm here today at Spring Workshop next steps in May staff's going to take all the data that we've received and we're going to analyze and we're going to work on recommendations and a plan for how to spend that funding and then this summer we will bring that plan back to council and then we have an August deadline for a plan of how those funds are going to be spent all right so um a progress of the this is as of a couple of weeks ago we did extend the project and as of two weeks ago we had about 1300 engagements on the project as of today we are sitting at about over 1600 engagements on the project so we're pretty happy with that number and our engagement happened through several platforms so the school's focus groups and presentations Community neighborhood and City groups rec centers libraries newsletters listers social media a little bit of everything and in the backup documents you will see on the Excel spreadsheet that has all of the engagement touch points that we went through for this project um this this slide and the next slide are just some screenshots of the identical so we did most of our engagement through the engagement rural platform and the idea tool is just one of the ways that we can try to receive feedback so the cool thing about the idea tool is people can share the ideas that they have but then residents can interact with each other um so you'll see like can't postcards somebody put that idea up without 106 likes on it and 12 comments so residents could interact with each other's ideas and just kind of discuss back and forth see what other people were talking about so then we jump into our survey um and so the first question on the survey that we asked her are you an aurora resident yes no or if yes what is your ZIP code so just under 90 of the responses that we receive were from Aurora residents um question two is what is your age range so the large majority of those responses came from the 26 plus age group so for this project just as a reminder we were really targeting youth youth serving professionals and youth caregivers so we're thinking that 26 plus came from a lot of our new survey professionals and our youth caregivers question number three was are you a youth caregiver um yes and no and then are you serving professional s there and then question five how would you like to see these funds spent so this was a rank of one to nine one being the highest priority how do you want to see it funded not even the lowest priority and so these um one through well one through eight eight nine was another what one through eight came from the recommendations that the managers and the directors brought together so that's what informed question number five so um stem was to the community was the highest priority for funding and Sports Programming being the lowest however we see that they all fall between that four and five so they were very middle of the road all of them so we feel that the recommendations really reflected what the community was looking for and just a question didn't uh Denver and their allocate did they already decide their location it wasn't it heavily in the sports program I'm not sure if you heard us I've not heard from Denver yet but the thing about this is all of these dreams about the same so the priority is that these are all priorities for the community so people were ranking them between a one or in a nine and a lot of people we've everybody was ranking all of these between a four and a five so they were saying sort of across the board these are all a priority well why did we let them rank it that way so why didn't we I mean I think everything is a five well it would force a ranking right so they had to list them one through nine but then across the totals number of people they landed in the films yeah okay so they essentially the takeaway messages these are all important programs for the community the way that it at which which community particle response the people that responded I know but is it broken down by areas or not we have not done Geographic but we can do that analysis and again this is just kind of an update and so we come back with final uh recommendations the ZIP code piece could be broken down that's how the engagement or a tool works yeah and so then we did ask people um for question number six to dive deeper into why they rank these the way that they did or specific ideas that they had for their ranking so question six please share your ideas and details of how you believe the money should be used so again this is not all of the results this was just teams the most common things that we have seen in our initial analysis of the data so some sample ideas in no particular order free or affordable programming after school sports summer programming mentorship programs Youth Center or youth violence prevention youth Mental Health Resources skate parks and sports facilities pre-affordable Rec Center access for youth more Library programming and Library improvements stem programming and funding pre-existing Community programming so in addition to updating all of you we also wanted to come back and have this as a chance to provide your feedback as well so one of your funding priorities for the program and or infrastructure for this funding that supports youth activities and if you had to prioritize these we can either have this discussion now or if you want to reach out to myself or to Jessica if you want to set up time to talk about it just please let us know we'll take your feedback that way all right so this is the Bronco money yes which are a sports team so it seems like it should kind of keep lean towards Sports Programming and I guess I'm confused on the you know reading programs and some of these things the school should be doing so where is the school responsibility and you know stem and reading I mean it does a good job yeah so I think those are some of those are also programs that the city is already funding or providing so I know the library is doing stem programming they're doing reading programming um so I think this will just be to help kind of bulk up what they're already doing and Prince Albert just um just so you know um the written the written portion of this for all the towns and cities um just says it needs to be towards youth activities now for example some cities are just buying like you know a lot of balls right so in smaller cities and some people are just doing things like that um some some cities are looking at creating a space for kids to go into so that's why they wrote it so generally it's just so every municipality in their Community kind of side what they want to see with their youth and it's one of the things Rachel did a really good job of is part of the Strategic finding is looking at the entire area city of Aurora going to all the pockets also focusing a lot around our hot spots that our Public Safety Partnerships show that those were key areas when they did their assessments that we need for youth kind of activities and so they also make sure to go to those areas we went to all the schools for APS and Terry Creek we also went to preschools and their families we made sure to really reach as far as we can to ask what do people want to see with their use whether it's teenagers adolescents or kids so that's why it's so General if you look at it it just says youth activities and that can be anything Sports it can be stem like she's saying it helps also just be places for youth to hang out like you know maker spaces too yeah what other questions if not thank you for the presentation um 11 o'clock instead we're a little bit behind just thinking uh 15 minute break so um [Music] [Music] thank you thank you foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] foreign foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] thank you [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] oh baby [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] all right yeah well um I put this forward because uh I clearly wanted to be competitive economically in terms of commercial development but we've always had the philosophy the Bulldogs its own way and uh and we have uh impact news on residential but we don't have impact these on Commercial non-residential and so I think it's something we want to take a look at good morning uh Laura Perry Deputy State manager joined by Prime planning system she are going to tag team this presentation today today is an informational the presentation only um and we'll get to that to the end but essentially today you're going to hear a little bit about the background of our transportation impact these key policy matters a little bit about a proposed non-residential Transportation impact the surrounding Community fee comparisons and then Council will engage in the dialogue all right um impact on this one I'm pretty sure um it's one-time charges on new development day for Capital costs that uh do surgery development new residents and business impact do not take effect fees just new development um maybe some a city has in Tech he's already in place for Parks buildings buildings and Facilities Fleet Library and transportation on residential this would of course happen for transportation on non-residential they can't be used for operations and maintenance to go for more detail on that and they're really as the mayor said if they're a part of a policy of growth paying its own way and growth paying its own way is is pretty critical it's a big concept it's critical to the city's long-term Financial sustainability so that it can as the city grows and it can maintain maintain a level of service that it provides through all residents and businesses um service and it's also important it's also more Equitable when growth pays its own way because fewer tax revenues are diverted existing development existing residency businesses to help pay for new development so that's the behind that policy that's awesome types of products that the transportation impact fees would be used for this new capacity new Transportation capacity New Roads connecting gaps in the transportation Network extending roads major intersection improvements things that add capacity the way we've done these the calculations in here we've built in multimodal projects as well it's kind of faked into the fee calculations so complete streets text projects a lot of the city's current Street standards include a full multimodal cross section with sidewalks and a multi-bit multi-use paths and so those are multi-use and non-motorized modes are part of the impact fee project mix that we could also use them as local matches for federal and state Grant projects things that would not be eligible I'm going to switch sides here left hand local and neighborhood streets those are typically developer responsibility reconstructing existing facilities so you know just taking an existing Road that's you know hasn't been touched for 30 years and rebuilding that that's not an eligible project for impact bees even though it is a cap technical Capital project it's not a capacity increase um but if you did that same reconstruction project and added a lane or added some multimodal facilities you could take a portion of that cost and fund that would impact these and then there are always mechanisms for crediting developers if they if they if they're building uh things that would be otherwise funded with impact bees or sort of regional city-wide benefit projects there's a credit process for that um two charging packages you need a Nexus study there's a lot of federal federal and state law around that um it's the the fee study determines the maximum fee that you could charge has proportional to the impacts of different development types so you don't just pick a fee and charge the same thing to ever to all types of development it changes with the amount of traffic the impact of each type of development which you'll see in the draft the draft week out of business key concept uh you can adopt anything up to the maximum in those in the study so the numbers we're going to show you here are the maximum that our draft probably 80 or 80 or 90 draft that we've done here we're going to show you the maximum and we there are lots of options to phase them in adopt something lower look at your look at what your neighbors are charging Etc so a little bit about the history that Aurora how impact these came to be and how they've evolved so 2008 we put impact fees in place in line with the city's policy to pay for the infrastructure costs associated with growth City staff formulated this with the support of a development Advisory Group in 2019 the city updated those fees we hired a consultant and at that time transportation was the only fee that was not updated as part of that process and the reason being it was was that there was going to be a capital planning process that was to take place to identify Transportation priority projects within the city that was done and in 2021 we hired Brian an EPS to start on a draft Transportation Nexus study so that's the same Nexus study that here Brian speaking to today and that was based on that the study was based on planning done as part of the Northeast Aurora Transportation study and other Capital project planning work the city has undertaken the last time Council has had a dialogue on the transportation impact fees was in September of 2021 and since then information has continued to come forward to Council on this topic a little bit more in detail about our impact fee structure so you'll see on the right hand side the list of the categories for which we charge impact fees General government down to Regional Parks fees for transportation police and fire are collected by what we call zones so core Northeast and Southeast and we have a map if folks have questions on that we can show you but essentially revenues generated within certain areas of the city are deposited in those areas and can only be spent within those boundaries so in 2019 you'll see these are actuals and then the growth between 2019 and 2022 2022 actuals shown here one thing to note you'll see across all categories revenues are not sufficient to cover project costs for new infrastructure so we have some sample project costs listed here on the left hand side fire stations down to a new police station and even adding up the amounts in total for say the transportation category unfortunately is not enough to be able to construct a regional system-wide transportation Improvement and so what happens then is that falls on the city and other public funds to have to figure out how to fund that need absolutely so if you look at police Southeast 247 000 and then you've got 2.3 million is the 2.3 is a female is year two I mean it's cumulative over the years correct from 2008 to now okay and those monies have to be spent in the Southeast region correct so we have not spent anything correct Jason's fire stations police anything yeah where's that money capital projects okay still there okay absolutely still there yeah and that's like a really good segue to the some of the issues we'll consider with the with the current snow instead yeah one thing to know too you all would know you would see that in the budget as an appropriation so whenever we touch these you all would approve them no okay so touching on key policy matters the mayor did touch on this in the meeting of the presentation so all of those impact key categories that you just saw are only charged on residential development so single family homes multi-family the city does not charge on non-residential land uses and that was the outcome of the 2008 conversations in the city about putting these impact fees in place so this would be a new policy for the city however surrounding communities do charge all land use Citizen and Brian can get into the details around the equitability you want to touch on that really quick yeah it's if if not residential isn't isn't paying um impact fees then you've got to find that basically other land use is residential and other property tax other tax sales tax property tax revenues have to be used to fill that Gap so it's it's almost it's almost subsidizing the growth of non-residential if we're not if we're recovering the cost if it's in to clarify that's just for the development of those zones not like the current business owners aren't paying after it's developed aren't getting impact correct in fact these are only to new construction but when you think about the cities this is budget structure right a lot of the capital fund the sales and use tax there may be some property tax that gets transferred in I'm not sure yeah all right so all those other all those other revenues which are coming from existing you know existing residents businesses have to come in to fill that Gap and then on the residential side we already touched on those fees have not been updated since 2008 and so they are very below Market one of the lowest in the region and so that's something awesome to take a look at as well next so quickly Brian will get into these in a little bit more detail in several sides but current transfer translation impact fees for residential land uses per single-family home constructed so these are paid at the time of permit with the city is 749 dollars per single family home this does include inflation to help keep up with the cost of inflation you heard from Greg earlier on what inflation is looking like so a year ago that fee was 667 dollars so for 2023 it's 7.49 multifamily is 528 dollars per dwelling unit and then of course non-residential is zero so in the Nexus study Brian mentioned it shows a maximum justifiable fee so with this chart depicts is the maximum fee per land use type single family residential shown at the top her home fifty nine hundred dollars is the maximum multi-family forty six hundred for dwelling unit and then the various non-residential land use types shown on the right to retail down to Hotel retail through many warehouses per 1000 square foot so you'll see the draft fees here and then for hotel it's per room so 4400 per room and then the price per square footage hotel if you figure 800 gross square feet per room maybe on average it's about five bucks okay two four uh dialogue today to introduce to council is a proposal that you heard from the mayor to apply the transportation impact fees to non-residential land uses there's a lot of infinite phase and options as Brian mentioned discount options on this but the idea would be to phase in the transportation impact fee over three years this allows for the market to prepare for this and plan for this and that could be starting in January of next year eliminate the current zone system so thinking back to that slide with the chart that showed the amount generated per Zone as I said when you total those up it is not enough to construct a major transportation project a police station Etc so for transportation The Proposal is to eliminate the current zone system because the zones are diluting those revenues allow for those revenues to be pulled and that gives Council more flexibility to help address some of those major needs across the region that need to be dressed to support our transportation system as a whole and then I've also the last Council to focus on more priority projects like Gun Club Road I know that's a big priority for many of you with the resolution pass last year and then of course continuing to keep up with with costs so applying the inflationary Factor as well that's something we currently already have in place so that is is best practice in terms of resetting to allow for these Stars just to market here is what it would look like um so this is just the transportation component of it sorry um this is just the transportation component you can see that the current fee is 749. let's just talk single family for the moment and um I know this is mainly about maybe about non-residential so it would it would add 5100 to it and it would phase in over three years on non-residential it's currently zero so these would phase in over three years the idea with the phasing is that it is you know it is a large increase and it would give the market time to adjust for people to plan for that in their project performance land values might adjust over time if you think about the stack of a cost of a project it's land it's soft costs and fees and hard costs you know and those it's sort of like a layer cake and they're they're a bit elastic so you give the market time to adjust and and this is just can I ask questions Steve said it's not included but it will be so 5900 within inflate yeah we would we would phase and index and inflation at all time we're just trying to keep the math the math simple here we don't know what inflation is going to be okay but that could be quite considerable hopefully hopefully it'll water out we might have a question this I did request that the residents will be it would not be included thank you mayor yeah so this is what it will look like in total um you know for non-residential is the same the retail commercial would go up to maybe 10 or 12 dollars a square foot uh depending where we actually adopted there's a little bit of refinement we can do that we want to do to a couple of these land use categories to a get them a more alignment with the city's development code and land use categories are and I think there's some tweaks we can make to the retail to bring it down a little bit relative to some of the other ones so but again three year a three year phase and is a pretty typical it's pretty typical implementation practice in a situation is when it's a new policy or a or a significant increase so on the capital project implementation side we've talked a lot to you about taking a holistic funding approach for our capitalings of course this is one big key piece of that we do it at the winter Workshop we presented a list of priority Transportation projects that we'd like to pursue federal funds for um obviously if the city's not successful in those discretionary Pursuits fall on the cost of the city to implement so one thing I've known in fact these can actually be used for leverage so we can use these as local match for aspects of these projects certainly you know as Brian mentions the capacity piece of those but but helps us get farther in our grant Pursuits but these are just a flavor of some of those region-wide Regional wide system improvements that are priorities that are needed that these funds could help pay for from a cost perspective one lane of arterial Road currently costs three million dollars per mile one lane one mile so taking the fees at the maximum level that you saw assuming five dollars per square foot of the average impact fee here it would take about 600 000 square feet of development to recover one mile and for additional context but over time you know that that adds up um just looking backwards on you know the cities there's been a lot of non-residential development in the city you know and just if you figure 500 five dollars a square foot as a typical average non-residential impact the 25 to 30 million square feet have been built in the city over about the last 10 million years that's that's five times thirty a hundred 180 I'm an economist I should be able to do math 150 million or so right that's that's a lot of money um and looking forward the city I think the city is very well poised um to be to continue during a very large share of the non-residential market especially in warehousing and distribution if you just if you've driven out on East I-70 recently there is new stuff going up out there very very large buildings Simmons area is going to continue to grow and redevelop and and there are a lot of Transportation needs so it's you know there's there's there's a a lot of development potential I think the city's going to continue to compete well um more and more so as other communities or more and more land constrained as water becomes more and more scarce um you know this I think it's a there's a very positive outlook for the city and then the impact fees become an important part of being able to serve that demand and be maintain your economic growth and then last to touch financing districts we have Arda we have Surya So currently we have a development agreement with Arna that allows them to retain the fees generated within their District that are then used towards their project plan which does include a lodge a lot of Regional Transportation improvements and build out for Surya this is more of a proposal just for everyone's knowledge surreya does include Gun Club Road it's part of their project plan uh they could also retain the transportation impact fees generated within their boundary to help leverage and utilize to partner with the city on implementation of their priority projects which as I said includes Gun Club Road as well okay absolutely a million times when we talk about Transportation impact fees stop so residents I would say a majority in in ward 6 that are in fairly new developments or paying industry with the mill Levy that ratchets is up over time from one male to five Mills and so forth so they have like you said Aurora Parkway gun Corp Road prioritize for that Regional connection that hasn't been able to happen because developers are responsible obviously for internal infrastructure and and sometimes adjacent lanes and so forth um so they they don't currently have the funding those projects that you know some of them monies have gone into design would they be when you say retain the fees um with I mean I'm concerned about double taxation so that you know the pain they're paying the male Levy and then they would pay the impact fee so are you saying you would structure it so that they their Monies stay within their District but then could still match do a match for a bigger project yeah we would need to enter into an agreement with them but essentially they could retain it and utilize those revenues to pledge for funding to help Finance the residents that are currently there would not pay this fee right and the new ones would still pay Soria plus the impact okay and we this is a this is this is that we can look at but in some of our initial work we had we thought about that that double taxation issue and we could look at a property and sorry obtaining a slightly lower impact fee that represents that includes a credit okay in the amount of those future property taxes that they're going to pay so that you're that you're not double dipping yeah and I honestly hear from constituents that are so mad about this um you know this this Ari fee because they feel like they're paying for you know Regional infrastructure and not everyone is and so it gets kind of paper okay okay I've got a little bit of information on some comparison communities I know there are several council members ask for more information on a broader list of communities maybe I'll start with that um I I don't have the we don't have it ready for a slide but you know up and down the Front Range and throughout throughout the US mainly and growing area and growing areas the South South West California it might be a little bit of a bad word we don't need to be more like that but you know development impact fees are very common in a fast-growing environment like this so it's it's not like when when National developers come to build an aurora they're going to say oh my God watch out for the impact these they're they're used to it they see it throughout the country and uh and we're not the only city in Colorado that would be charging this especially on non-presidential uh some of the communities that don't uh there are a few communities that's kind of seeing that that don't charge them jobs and I'm not sure that you're necessarily competitive with them Westminster does not Broomfield does not uh Centennial North Glenn Thorntons Parker has a um yeah Parker has a development excise tax functions very similarly and I think it's close to it works out to about ten thousand dollars they did something kind of interesting I don't totally know why they did it this way but they did an impact fee study like like we did um that calculated the the fees for residential and non-residential and then they presented to the voters an option of implementing a development excise tax in the in the roughly the same amount or imposing impact fees and the voters the voters approved the development excise tax it's the same thing is it uh it's a little bit different you know it's kind of key versus tax right the the fee you could right but but well I think that the peace can go up well these give me active on unilaterally um but they have to lead for a specific purpose correct whereas a tax goes into the general funds so it's um it's kind of an awesome I speculate that they they opted for the excise tax because it's a little bit more flexible in how they can spend it you could you could you could spend it on more maintenance projects you know and be able to shift those priorities around year to year as you need to oh so they can spend it on maintenance from an implementation perspective the biggest difference is that tax has a tax it has to go to a vote a fee can be implemented by your ordinance okay um so this just looks at the non-residential retail commercial fee that tends to be the one that a lot of people a lot of developers and economic developers are most interested in um this is per thousand square feet if you just substitute the comma for a decimal place you have a 12 700 would be about 12.70 a square foot on retail commercial again these are the maximum Castle Rock has discounted their non-residential fees significantly to incentivize retail and Commercial development so that they then have to kind of backfill with other other Revenue sources to do that Brighton's fees are expected to go up significantly these are the new proposed ones they're going to order and it's probably um for Collins Fort Collins is one of the higher cost impact heat communities up and down the Front Range their total is about 12 700 one thing that this suggests to me is that if the city wanted to at some point in the future come back and impose an insurance impact fees on the other categories we might want to give not the transportation a little bit of a haircut to give it a little bit of room so that if those other feed components came in you you would be uh you would be better positioned to be similar to some of these other other people I'm sure was Colorado Springs pushed down out of the municipal average because it wouldn't drop the number even more it I put it there because it's an old fee program I don't think they've updated them in a long time and they also passed a I think a quarter Cent Capital um sales tax but that's their fees right that are their fees so it would you know that would happen yeah we can put it back up in there yeah it was not not trying to write things but for communities that had more more up-to-date fee programs and then the counties just have a different level of service I mean they're Road stand their transportation needs are different their Road standards aren't as as rigorous and complete as was what the city because that's the retail on the industrial industrial Warehouse these draft fees would be more you know I think I think a lot more consistent with with some of the other communities around as you can see you know there's there are options there's you know we can look at a number of of kind of policy discount options to get them more consistent you have you can use incentives if there are particular retail commercial projects that the city really wants to bring in you have other incentive tools you can use to to do that I would just my caution is on that you don't want to use incentives on every single case because then it sort of dilutes the impact these it really needs to be something unique that's bringing net new economic activity to the city and I think I think that's it we're going to skip over the uh just yes I was just kind of doing the math you look at Dan Green out there with Jag is building like 3 million square square feet of those Warehouse goes so 12 700 times let's look at the warehouse in industrial okay yeah okay gotcha okay the other questions the staff um just in terms of you know because you have to yours is to just come but looks like staff is looking at residential as well in time but my my proposal that we're supposed to be discussing today exclusively always this involves a non-resolution yeah I think that 2019 we made the council membership I think are residential but but staff feels that um this is everything from the Nexus study today so this is information marriage proposals the green box that you all saw in the previous slides that I think today um you know hearing questions from you feedback from you and then that gives us the ability in the future to come back to you perhaps later this year with further options um I would hope we would also get the impact of um cost of housing like does that get passed on to the consumer of course and the the you know 500 000 or 600 000 home I think that we figured it was maybe two percent or so you know more attainably priced um what's the impact there um it might be two and a half percent you know this retail commercial fee let's say 10 12 a square foot on maybe a hundred and fifty dollars a square foot corn shell with maybe fifty dollars of tenant sit ups or 200 a square foot what's that uh percent but that's you know that's another kind of comparison to think about it's not just the sort of what the what's the increase what's the percent of the cost what did you say about password again what was that they they lowered it because what they were trying to do what they're they lowered their their non-residential fees try to incentivize it's not usually about commercial development okay thank you further questions uh yeah I I understand that implementing something like this is going to make development more expensive but it development also brings with it these costs the need for increased transportation and things like that so just magically waving a one and saying well we're not going to charge impact fees because we want the cost of development to be lower doesn't mean we aren't still going to create those needs they're still and I don't know the number Laura um but it isn't our capital projects need list something like 780 million dollars and a lot of that is because we have not kept pace with wire development impact fees should be on both residential and non-residential and so we can live in this very world where we say well we're not going to charge development impact fees because it makes the cost of available lower but we are still creating more needs for our city that being said what I would be interested in because I think we should continue this conversation what I would be interested in is seeing a couple different options for phasing in and then also a couple different options for um uh different different commercial industrial types what those different fees could look like based upon what kind of development we want to see in Aurora obviously when you intend something lower you you get more of it and if you're going to hire you get less of it and so I'd be curious to see you know what have some other cities done in terms of like so for example warehouse and distribution has obviously become a big thing anymore um do other cities have a lower impact fee for that type of use than maybe they do for retail Aurora obviously for a long time has had a lot of retail so maybe we don't need to incentivize that I I just those are kind of the ideas that I'm thinking of and so I'd like to see that built out a little bit more in terms of both how we could phase it in and then what percentages we could different use types that to incentivize different types of commercial and Industrial Development I agree with everything there exactly I agree with everything you said the only one the other thing I'd like to see built into is on inflation is do something with residential res opposed and just like kicking them up maybe you do an inflation plus two or three percent whichever is lower so that way in years when it's nine percent it's not growing by nine for sure yeah so there's some cap because I do think that the big jump of residential that concerned me I think have been building in something so it can grow over time make success yeah um thank you sir I also just want to point out that I think that our pattern of development is really going to inform what business look like so how wise we are with our land use it costs more if we're going to continue the sprawl so if we could kind of like maybe have a breakout of what that looks like and how that would impact um what we're looking at also uh work that maybe into the Udo revisions which are for the analysis which I also knows under the way and with regards to the residential component I share the same concern I think everyone does we don't want to increase the cost of housing but we also have to recognize that we're house determined with that and I'd like to see some more granularity in terms of the real estimated trips obviously the larger houses can have the people to enduring more trips so we don't necessarily want to like subsidize basically the continued sprawl and practically develop you know unaffordable housing in that way I think it's a form of incentivizing the wrong kind of plant use and products um so also on housing I would want to see multiple options the same way as council members for the commercial that we do the same for residential and kind of look at different phasing options um as well as different housing types at potentially different levels we've heard a lot about the difficulty of building for sale multi-family so maybe we look at not only you know tax credits for low-income housing but specifically finding a way to incentivize the building of for sale multi-family at different price points through the way that we do the piece DNA separables with events okay and you might need your mindsetter e470s because most of themselves okay uh further questions and staff seeing none thank you very much uh we will recess until noon so I've been working long so just uh you can Munch while we're going through arts and entertainment venue Council discussions okay [Music] [Music] [Music] thank you foreign [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] thank you [Music] [Music] thank you [Music] [Music] thank you [Music] [Music] thank you [Music] [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] foreign foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] foreign foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] thank you foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] tomorrow [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] thank you [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] yeah so we uh I can contracted with a couple of outside groups that have gone through kind of stakeholder engagement process on the topic of an arts and entertainment venue and I think they were going to have a presentation a recap on kind of what the process has been up until now and then I think some recommendations for the next steps to began under uh so is uh mayor Tim Carter mentioned in November of council on a new arts and entertainment venue in the city of Aurora and that study was proposed to be conducted in a phased manner phase one being what we deemed the alignment phase and so that first phase of the study has been focused on the alignment of goals and Visions benchmarking needs identification looking at comparable venues nationally and in the region and then working with Council to develop a shared vision for the second phase of the study which is a feasibility analysis which will involve a lot of the economic Market site analysis communication Etc so with that a little bit more on phase one um we did hire uh theater projects and simple Brown to help us with this first phase and as I mentioned uh several of these are ready it's really been focused on exploring and information gathering around operational models types of venues programming and really to Define that Baseline for the second phase of this study one thing also to note a lot of variance boards and commissions have had a lot of ideas and passion about a project and so a small stakeholder group was convened to have conversations about this Arkansas a little bit more and all of that was done to bring questions to come back to you today to wrap up phase one and provide us with directions going into phase two so quickly to introduce our Consultants today we're joined by Jenna Bueller with the theater projects Jenna's over 20 years of experience in event production venue management operational Logistics festival and program management and relationship building for critical Partnerships she was the former executive narcissistic director director of the wheeler Opera House in Aspen and then Mr Chris Wyman with simple Brown he's a senior Arts executive and consultant who specializes in development facilities Across the Nation and has been worked for over 30 years it's a he's a local Legend uh in the venue design world and has worked on numerous design projects with the Denver Performing Arts Complex so with that I will hand it to Jenna perfect hello everyone so we want to run through a few things for today's agenda again as a part of really this informational process to lead you into some of the discussion that we'll follow so we want to touch a bit more on just sort of this investigatory process that led us to the stakeholder alignment uh we'll talk quickly about our process to date we'll do a quick review of informational data there's more information in your packet that has been provided to you over the past few months as well as our past council meeting that we have with you all uh stakeholder workshops and Alignment outcome I think this is a really important piece for us to touch in for you to know and then questions for you all and then we'll toss it back over to Laura to talk about some next steps so um here's our process to date so because this is what we call like the pre-feasibility study work right we came to the table to say there's a lot of ideas about what the wants are let's find strategic alignment for those in order to help inform that process looking at the market demographics here in Aurora looking at what that future growth and demand is for all different types of arts and entertainment and culture were important to us we specifically looked at those numbers that you've seen about the demand and the spending potential of all different types of arts and entertainment we did a venue and programming inventory really saying what's the competitive set out there already that a new facility would need to either compete with or try to fill in a specific Gap we talked out a Target there of 225 4 000 just to say there's there's a big range of ideas so let's see really fully what the true picture is of what is out there we also threw at the request of council Fiddler screen in there which is 17 000 plus seats right I wanted to sort of say if we would look at this within a driving distance what would that become so all of that data you've seen we then came in front of you um my colleague Ashley did along with Chris for that study session in March to review that data then we hosted a Colorado non-profit and Municipal venue operator expert panel again as a part of the opportunity to say let's inform these stakeholders on what the opportunities are there hearing specifically from the folks who are running these facilities in Colorado was really important to us for that process there are a lot of questions about what does a municipal Performing Arts Center specifically mean what would that be is that what we're even looking for so we had basically a full day session there to dig into those pieces we did a stakeholder Workshop then as follow-up to that where we were able to answer more questions dig into more ideas and then we had our final stakeholder alignment session which was really great to come out of because when we started the process there were a lot of ideas everywhere a lot of competing ideas and a lot of questions of not even necessarily knowing how to identify what the want was at the end of that we were able to find alignment and that was sort of the exciting part of our process that brings us here today so um here is who uh came to the stakeholder sessions from Aurora um in this room uh which was fantastic so we had everyone here as you can see um and then what we wanted to do was start looking at defining the types of venue sizes and costs so I'll take this into the Chris real quick to walk you through some of these pieces this Jenna indicated one of the primary tasks here was to follow up the question of is an arts and entertainment venue in Aurora feasible because from our standpoint the follow-up question to always to that is always well what kind of hearts and entertainment venues so you can see here that that we ran considerations through a 750 seat Performing Arts Center pack in our world 750 seat flat floor that might be just as good for commercial concerts as for events dining events those kinds of things a two a two thousand seat Performing Arts Center a 3000 seat Arena and a 700 7500 seat Amphitheater you see that each of those project types can vary significantly in terms of scale depending on the additional facilities like education Studios rehearsal spaces administrative offices shops those kinds of things and we've just tried to provide some order of magnitude in terms of a cost range for each of those kinds of facilities they're all substantial Investments and I think it's fair to say even if they are commercially developed they expect government participation in either incentives to build them for incentives to operate them we can't put a single one in front of you that the community hasn't helped to pay for in some way shape or fall so that was the range of discussion that we were talking about and the representatives on our expert panel represented some combination of all these yep just the minimum maximum cost range yep so that's related to the size range in terms of how large a facility so over on the 7 7 500 seat Amphitheater could be as tight leaves oh smaller smaller yep yep the scale of facility okay thank you yep and then just to note too those costs are really based off of a per square foot over the construction only right so that has nothing to do with your design costs the site acquisition anything else that comes into it this is sort of your base construction cost in today's dollars and then looking at all the project the project costs that would go on top of that so yep okay so then as we were talking we went through and we said okay so for the Performing Arts Center model um typically there is the municipality or a non-profit organization that could run that and that's where we spent a lot of time with the stakeholders of all different sizes going into the flip side of that is as we look at the larger facilities there are different types of commercial promoters and venue operators for the larger spaces and some of these you'll see on the screen are just a sampling of some folks that we see today in Colorado specifically is viable so if we talk about a commercial promoter these are the folks who are coming in to put a show into the space to make money off of the space right they can sometimes be incentivized to bring different levels of diverse content into that market which usually especially when we're talking about Live Nation and AEG specifically as well as cronky who is here and local many are publicly traded many have shareholders who are focused with them on how much money they're making so their goal is to come into these facilities rent them put on a show make the money move off to do something else right they're really concerned with that experience in that day and how that's coming in that's who we classify as the commercial promoters we see Live Nation and AEG and kse being very successful across a lot of different sizes and ranges of venues here in Colorado today if we look at the Red Rocks model over in Morrison that is a shared agreement between Live Nation and AEG they don't control either of those spaces yeah let's talk about that so in each of these cases these companies fulfill both of these rules in some cases they control and manage a venue Mission Ballroom is a venue that AEG controls they lease it from a developer Live Nation doesn't get to put any program in there at Red Rocks because that is a City and County of Denver Parker of these organizations are the home teams they compete for dates and the contract that Denver has structured provides an incentive that says Live Nation the more shows you bring us the cheaper your rent gets incentive back once you hit certain thresholds the business model for multiple of these groups in some markets has been we want to control venue because that way we've locked down control of the schedule but the honest truth is it's great in other markets like Red Rocks where they begin to get acts from multiple promoters because it's beautiful and it's in in demand and the artists will say I want to go there no matter what right yeah and they have the capacity right so they have they have they're expecting too so as we have conversations with a lot of these folks through our work in the industry a lot of this comes down to give us some seats right if we would say hey if you would float between 2000 and 2500 almost every time they would say can we have three thousand right like the more seats they can have give them the potential to make more money right so they don't ever want to be strapped for what that is they want to push the bounds so that they have a model that can grow over time and that's why we wanted to look at those demand projections early on in this process is to say what really is the demand in the growth of Aurora because what we're saying today isn't actually if you decide to move forward going to be opened and built for several years so the demand of Aurora today is not what would be selling those tickets is that demand in eight to ten years and everything else so we're looking at different opportunities here to say okay how does a commercial promoter want to use these spaces and then how do professional facility managers want to use these spaces typically your professional facility managers are going to be paid to come in to run the space for you so that's usually an expenses plus fee model and that ranges depending on how competitive the venue is how much they want to usually in an RFP process be competitive to get the deal done and what that competitive market is right if we look at Aurora because with approximity to Denver and the proximity to a lot of different competitive music venues that would be the question that comes up in later feasibility once you decide what's to move forward with is what's the right fit of venue operator model and do you want a professional facility manager who is also a commercial promoter and can do it all or do you want a professional facility manager who is going to open up the doors and say hey everybody can come in here so in the same way that city of Denver has done this with red rocks to say We'll incentivize you the more you do here the more will lower your rate but we're not giving you this venue on its own right those are questions that will eventually come and a lot of that is going to come down to the size of what's there so when you're looking at the professional facility manager they are the ones that are looking at your overall venue operations so that is the tickets the guest experience the security the parking the production right all that goes into operating that facility they are the ones that need to balance the Community Access goals as we go through this we've had a lot of discussions about community and cultural Equity across Aurora and what that means so finding out what those Community goals are going to be of access would come down and your facility manager is the one that has to deal and balance that out they're the brand connection right does this want to be a certain brand that is strongly connected with the Aurora name what does that mean how does that tie into a lot of your goals for why you would want to bring a venue in the overall experience the financial outcomes and more that's what your facility manager is focused on versus your commercial promoter who's looking at those day-to-day shows and getting that content in there again these can be one in the same company Live Nation and AEG they tend to come in and then they add the facility on their own um same thing with kse hope View group has a lot of different models because they've got a lot of different pieces in Oakview group they will go in and they have OBG 360 who will come in as your facility manager who can also do your booking but Oakview group on their own is also a developer they most recently opened climate pledge arena in Seattle they're doing a lot of midsize to large Arenas across the country they also have folks who used to be with adg and Live Nation is a part of that piece so as you start to look at the sort of political and uh sort of strategic layout of all of these people including all the way over to ASM Global who has the EG relationship there's a lot of different layers that would come in these players are all viable for this Market based off of what you decide to move forward on so yes um Fiddler screen who what models do they have oh it's aging so Fiddler's Green yeah owned by the Museum of outdoor Arts a non-profit entity the idea was that the revenue from Fiddler's Green would help float the operations of the Museum of outdoor roads what we say is the rock pays for Bach model right at the end of the day you can have commercial music coming in making money that then offsets usually something of community benefit whether that be you know more traditional Performing Arts Museum the parks and open space everyone has a lot of different models that come in so the reason that when you go to Fiddler's Green that there is an outdoor art Garden right there at the entrance that's the Museum of outdoor Arts putting that there because it's their event okay so asthma we went from the commercial options to saying what can we learn here from the non-profit in the municipal model Chris is going to touch in on some of the experience that we have here with expert panel uh so Chris I'll toss it over to you to walk through some of the folks who joined us we consciously tried to stock that panel with representatives from varying seating capacities and programming models Carrie Glassburn director of culture for town of Parker with the PACE Center there's 535 seats Rita summers at Lakewood Cultural Center 320 seats but also including their summer Amphitheater out at their historic complex Michael Stricker just has a new theater in Northglenn of 335 seats from Colorado Springs has booked in both the Pikes Peak Center at 2000 seats but also the World Arena at 10 000 or 8 000. um so that was a strategic inclusion there and Clark Johnson from Arvada Center 500 seats indoors about 1200 seats outdoors in the summer so we wanted a variety of perspective yes Mr mayerson could you just uh on the with Arvada model that the city spread it off as a non-profit right yeah so that so the city doesn't assume the risk at this point do they are they do they do facilities maintenance they still do Capital maintenance um and they still make a significant contribution to the operation of the facility over time what the what the transformation or the transition to non-profit management has helped to do is to increase the amount of private dollars that the center has been able to raise because they're no longer saying hey please give money to the city um but also that they've been able to kind of stabilize and flatten the amount of City contribution that's right um are you going to get into the Fox Theater because I think that I I get that we can't have a Symphony concert there but they do a number of it's effective for a number of plays and yeah yeah so um so broad variety of programming you know in in each of these communities there are expectations that local groups are given some access to the calendar not so much as World Arena but dot has always had a relationship with the Colorado Springs feel harmonic in terms of using the Pikes Peak Center at the Arvada Center there's an expectation there of local groups having access both to the performance space and to the event spaces the ball um that's true in North Glenn Lakewood and Parker as well Parker in terms of their musical theater programming has found that they need to produce that themselves because they're not going to get touring programming coming off the road for 535 cities so they have generated their own presentation facility luxury facility very much the same um so there's a considerable amount of touring programming as well as everything from Travelodge to kind of you know kind of Cabaret events had been a pretty significant amount of that but they have a symphony orchestra that's local local to Lone Tree and that group expects dates on the count and real quick as quick follow-up the reason that the director from Lone Tree is not included in this panel that we are put together is that there was a very recent transition of her happening to leave a Lone Tree to go to Aspen uh to take a job and Aspen that has been vacated um so all of that had happened so we didn't feel that the new director coming into Lone Tree would be able to give the level of expertise that we needed and Lisa Rigsby wasn't able to come down to Aspen to represent that so otherwise we would have also had a poetry in this expert panel um so it's a distance Lone Tree have corporate sponsorships am I wrong there is there is some level of corporate sponsorship in probably all I mean even even in Northglenn certainly in Lakewood uh Arvada has gotten more over the past five years since their transition to non-profit ownership so but all of that is going into their operating budget none of it's going into capital and most of these organizations are operating in that non-profit mode right where there's a balance of earned revenue and contributed income that are coming from either subsidy from the city county governments from philanthropic support from Individual donors from corporate sponsors all of those pieces come in very strongly to offset what they can have in their earned revenue and they are having lower rates that more welcome in the other community groups who couldn't afford it if it was in a commercial sense as well if we would look at the fox within this year the fox is a lower capacity than most of these spaces but does have that Equity theater company that there is the vet that is lower seats right and lower capacity so trying to figure out that balance that's something that as we looked at the inventory of what's available in Aurora we were able to say this is what you have taken care of already with the fox and what could happen within that sort of comes and we'll get to that in a second so have any of these utilized the non-profness cooperation but for Capital so paste it reads some private dollars at the time of its construction for their Community Foundation for Capital um I'm not aware of Lakewood built their Municipal complex in an agreement with the developer for redevelopment of the entire you know Belmar West areas um I so I'm not aware of any private philanthropy there Northland arts does have a Community Foundation that raises money for public art and other things in the community but less so for the capital uh World Arena was pretty much entirely private fundraising to begin with but then they said go operate based on what you can earn and Arvada as we talked about represents an interesting hybrid because of having started out as a municipal entity and making the transition to a non-profit um so who are one of these Builders because their Congress Springs is doing I think it's off Interquest they're getting an entertainment area I think it's outdoor or something like that um how did was that non-profit or was that just City do you want to just I was just curious because they're kind of it's off the requests yeah so we're talking about the sunset Coliseum yes yes so that's currently um I believe developer-led still in process with a local partnership okay and then they're gonna have a I believe still to be named a commercial promoter coming in to run that um and it's an outdoor Amphitheater space okay um that's there so yeah yeah and that is one of those that as we began this process is still uh by the time we were doing this they didn't even have their approvals now I believe they have some of their approvals moving forward but that's that sort of that model we are seeing this right where there are commercial developers across the country who will be doing a mixed-use development who say we want something to happen here and then through partnership basically a P3 partnership right you have those layers coming down into it um and that's always something interesting it comes down to what's the ongoing subsidy that's going to be required for maintenance and not keep in operations I go to a lot of our events and I've never seen any of the venues that I've been to at capacity that's important yeah you mentioned existing inventory team that into consideration and the mayor and I had met with the Gaylord some time back and they're doing about 1.6 billion dollar expansion and one of the things they want to do is in a concert arena that would see between possibly two thousand to five thousand people where deliberately they want to have big names come and just charge more money for that but I don't know if they keep that thing evoked all the time so that might be something to consider is communicating with a gaylord about when that's completed and what the program will be and what stay filled it might be a competing venue but nonetheless I'd like to see a multi-purpose of remember you can bring in cheer and dance competitions to town and those are lucrative tax wise but the Gaylord's already doing that too I'm gonna try to keep us on track here real quick it's okay Mr Mayor um we've got a couple of things to go through because I think you're all going to like where the Strategic alignment of the group got to you and then we continue to continue discussion if that's okay um are we okay with that yeah okay and that is that part of the the part of the the cities involvement on the Colfax Corridor is to help the economy of the Colfax schools and if we do another venue somewhere else it will in fact impact that area uh please proceed so just to round this out quickly uh the key themes that we reviewed uh as we were trying to dig into what are these Municipal models that we see across the state how can we learn from them came down to a baseline of their owner management capacity how are they managing their venues what does that mean uh looking at who are their stakeholders right how are they working with commercial promoters unable to work with commercial promoters many of them because capacity do they have anchor tenants really what is that structure and model then we looked at what are they doing well and what could be better uh we talked about what it means to be a municipal facility a lot of things came in here to say we're responsible for fundraising and as a municipal facility that is difficult if we're not in a non-profit model because people don't want to give money as a donation to their city government right most of the times they feel like their donations are coming through their taxes and so if that organization is trying to grow programming or come up with a capital campaign they find it difficult to go out to ask the community for money when they say wait isn't that my city venue why is the city taking care of it so a lot of those key themes that emerged came from having a non-profit model is really important if you're going to try to balance this out in a way that isn't commercially focused and then we also did what we love to do is the if we could start over what would we do and the interesting piece of this you know as Chris and I are looking at how we develop venues you know storage is always the number one thing that gets cut through the value Engineering Process when it comes down to dollars but interestingly enough everyone was saying that the demand that was forecast or thought about when they were building the facility within several years they grew out of already so Lakewood talking about um entertainment or sorry education spaces meeting spaces storage as they're growing their Community Connection they ran out of space very quickly because most times it seems like the focus was on the performing space or the entertainment space and what that capacity was going to be and then the support spaces that really integrated and served the community weren't big enough over time with their growth so Chris anything we missed on this that we want to touch to nope okay all right um so here are the panel discussion key takeaways Chris do you want to run through these really quick so these were kind of the high point aha moments that we put up on our Post-it notes Here in the board is as far as the consensus of the group everybody walked away with a sense that operational subsidy either in construction incentive or other funding mechanisms are going to be important as I said before I can't give you a clean example of a we didn't have to pay anything for this um second that that component of the project is is important for the community involvement and participation right shows themselves don't throw off enough additional Revenue to also support Community Gatherings and events educational programs those kinds of things Jenna already addressed the the idea that City governments often have a hard time raising money ongoing and so that was where we had strong interest in forming a non-profit armed for operations connection and access to the community are key need to be able to prioritize Community interests how are we going to see commercially driven programming but meeting the needs of the community organization organizations you is there potential alignment for recreation do we have an opportunity for a venue that might support both um and that that branched out into a lot of conversation about layers of use different kinds of use broad ranges of use and and that led to the last aha which is that a traditional Performing Arts venue with fixed seating and a great floor for sidelines would likely be too narrowly focused to be a good first step for Aurora questions about any of those okay all right so then we came to alignment uh as we went through and we talked about all the information uh we started to say so what does Aurora need right what do you all want to do and how does this come forward and we came up with two pieces and these statements here are that there should be as far as the stakeholders are concerned two parallel tracks that are important to the future of arts and culture and entertainment in Aurora the first one is that there is the current Arts infrastructure needs should be supported the question of cultural Equity across all the boards right how can this be sort of supported so that folks have some level of cultural access in their words that they're not required just to go to one zone for that so that's the first one that that is important and should be continued and staff has a lot of those plans in place there's the cultural arts plan that's in process for the updates they said that's important but the second piece of that that everyone is very interested in and what they say they want to have a study moving forward on is a larger entertainment and event facility that is about two thousand to three thousand seats in capacity is that current need of what is next um the piece of this that's interesting is that this larger entertainment and events facility they believe will help the brand presence and experience for Aurora by we had a lot of these comments right is this the opportunity to finally bring Aurora out of Denver's Shadow we should have this right people should stop leaving Aurora and taking their tax dollars at Aurora to go seek entertainment that they can't get here let's build that here and make this something that becomes a destination uh Community Pride and Community Gathering is another important piece of this the tourism and destination appeal as we sort of touched on and then this ability to combine entertainment and events with sports and recreation what can that be sports and recreation is such an important part of what is happening here in Aurora how can those two come together in some level of synergy and then this becomes an economic engine right the more shows and tickets that are sold what develops around it that economic impact for something of this size is what the group said this is what we want this is what this wants to come down to we didn't say cheer events here but it's included okay yeah exactly well and it's like it's interesting too right entertainment events the flat floor opportunity for events whether that be a cheer competition or it is a corporate group coming in to do that level of event trade shows gem shows right all of these things that are possible and sort of that configuration but then also saying can it be flexible with sports what does that mean what's that mean um and how does that tie in just with outdoor recreation Chris and I were sort of just vamping on ideas to say well what if this was an indoor outdoor space right what if there was opportunity that you had your box of 3000c capacity but then there was a big Bay that opened and in the summer it went out into an Amphitheater space the baby even gave you more right like what are those those are all the interesting things that can come down through a feasibility study if you decide to move forward saying is a large entertainment and event facility of this size feasible but the entire group and I know there are some members of that group who are here felt really excited about these two pieces saying let's focus on supporting our cultural infrastructure that's here with the People's Building with the fox with all these programs that are going the needs for dance studios and all of that let's keep focusing on that but let's also say something that focuses on this larger statement of we are Aurora and this is what this means comes into play and everyone walks out of those sessions very aligned which is not where we started so I think that's that's very exciting yeah so this not only tease up the potential for further study in a very targeted way um but also gives you some steps to be able to take and consider in terms of visiting facilities in the region so we talked about Magnus Arena as an example of exactly this kind of thing Colorado College has just built the ropes in Arena on their campus conveniently also close to downtown in Colorado Springs so there are spaces close by to go visit and look at and talk with them about their operations the interesting piece of this also ties into you know there's not necessarily a sport necessitates Arena right but being able to start with this base of saying okay we think these are the four buckets of things that could happen in this level of space that's enough to lead you in to study to say what it is right if there's a sports team that's thinking about coming here no matter what it would be this is that time that they would pop up and say oh we also have that need right so again this was just a lining on what the want is is for something that focuses on these two pieces so any questions with this let me let me also clarify the nerdical in the New York Times about this scale of facility specifically for performance and they spend a lot of time talking about the Mitch involver obviously one of the questions in a feasibility phase is to look at do you build that kind of venue or is it more of an arena type of venue that can also do sports and recreation this is a good question councilmember sunberg raised what the Gaylord is and I got briefed on it as well what they're looking at in terms of how performance venue obviously we would have to configure that into whatever we do because we would certainly draw demand in a different direction exactly and I think depending on timing of that you know we would probably recommend if there's the sort of the Gaylord might be thinking about this or depending on what that is to get that established and then follow up with feasibility right because that's going to be the thing that's going to pop out with feasibility is what is the unknowns of what we don't know right now right the early work that we did so here's the bedroom inventory that exists today but what are all those new things that are popping up and how do you all strategically decide what to move forward with and when so that you have the right information and you don't get too far down feasibility and then find out about something yes if you haven't seen a mirroring venue at capacity you clearly weren't at the Backstreet Boys concert with me in the summer at Fiddlers it was 18 000. at capacity for the Backstreet Boys concert last week come with me man I mean you know location is important but also demographics are important whatever whatever this is um you know we keep saying we don't want to compete with Denver but Denver is literally next door to part of Aurora and it and so I think if you're gonna if you're gonna put something you don't want right next to Denver because if I'm going to drive I might as well just go ahead and keep on going to Denver and go to the you know the Pepsi Center and to the whatever sure I think location is an important part of this I think what what's helpful in this phase of conversation was as we've looked at those two Paths of investment up above once we said the big investment doesn't have to meet all of the neighborhood needs that took a lot of pressure off of the conversation about is it North Aurora Central Aurora Southern Aurora because the first path of investment actually can spread those those those relatively strategic and and targeted spends around the community also because hardly anybody is going to come to the two the 3000 seat arena for dance classes right right different except let's separate those audiences and those activities now I think with the conversation about potential involvement of sports and recreation and also Site Area would it be advantageous to be able to combine this with playing fields in the same way that Dick's Sporting Goods Park is The Big Field but is surrounded by good grief what is it 24 soccer field and and that's what invites what Jenna is talking about in terms of saying if you do an indoor outdoor thing now the big the big arena can have the Lobby's face the concessions the restrooms or events that happen Outdoors as well but that would mean our site selection process is conditioned by much more side area for that kind of complex again as we go we're going through started the group was trying to figure out a one-size-fits all right these two traps were mushed together to say okay we need a big space but we need dance studios and we need a cultural art space and how do we do this so I think the interesting thing that came through here is the idea of the two tracks they're both important but they don't have to all be on the same site in the same Complex Aurora is so large and so diverse that spreading out that Equity across Aurora and not having to make it one size fits all I think was the light bulb moment for a lot in the stakeholder group to say okay we actually can get a lot of these things achieved without trying to push it together and sort of force something that wasn't organically coming I think we think about well it's arts and its entertainment that should be together but once we started talking about but what about sports and recreation what does that mean it actually made more sense to the group that entertainment in sports and recreation came together and then arts and culture and educational pieces and all of that was still important but not having to be one thing if that makes sense so okay so this is time now that we have for you all to have questions for us questions for Laura discussing with amongst yourselves I think as we looked at that early data the piece to put out too is the data early on is showing us with the diversity of Aurora the diverse spending potential something that has diverse programming is also that interesting fit right so something that's not just music that's not just replicating what else is across here but serving all of the different Pockets has a lot of demand and really good spending potential that can keep people here and attract people here so the balance of the Gaylord is what it is doesn't necessarily for us today well then that goes away it's a how do you fit in this potential into the ecosystem of what your venues and your offerings would be and how do you decide a path forward for Aurora that then goes into those next feasibility steps so if to make sure I understand what I'm hearing is the recommendation or the thought process is to continue to study a two to three thousand seeds facility that is multi-use that covers Arts Sports Recreation um kind of all of the above yeah and and why I think something like that is worthwhile because you know there's been several other facilities mentioned as we've kind of talked to either from Council Members or or during the presentation but um a facility like that is unique in the metro area and I think that's a key differentiator um I think it is no secret that residents from Aurora go to other cities to either see shows or sports or all of the above and so it would hold that if we have something unique the same people they're going to come from other cities in Terror um and so if we have a facility in that range that can compete for a variety of Performing Arts Acts or sports or things um that and there's not a similar sized facility we aren't competing against Pepsi Center or the fox even the Fox Theater here in Aurora or um the Lone Tree all these other facilities we are a unique facility and I think that's what makes this um a good a good idea because it doesn't really matter about those other facilities because this would be something unique and so we aren't competing right because the type of show that you put in the fox isn't going in the 3000c theater just like the type of show that you have in ball arena is also not going in a three so it's it's an entirely different Market yeah I mean is that kind of how that works I think that's very true I mean there is a lot of programming going into facilities of that scale inside there's also a lot that a facility of that scale and size can do for the community well we haven't even touched on this too is Esports coming up there was for a while a big focus on let's make venues that are specific to gaming and then they realize that's that's a lot to have to fill all the time but to be able to have the infrastructure and the ability to have people in there are you know Regional Esports events all the way up to National and worldwide that draw people in that this type of venue could also host and then be feasible you need a really good cable connection don't you have to still look at whatever you're looking at it being able to stain money-wise I mean if you if you want to be unique and you don't want to have you know the maybe the music venues that everybody else has or whatever but at some point what are you charging because if it's all very low cost you're not going to make money based off of the investment that you had to put into it and operations so there's also has to be a balance there that you're you're able to actually I mean make money or break even I mean we're going to end up upside down yeah yeah so that's that's a component of the next phase should you decide to move forward with that to give you some tangible information in terms of how many events are we talking about what's reasonable to expect in terms of ticket prices not everything partly anything is going to be available for free right because it costs money to give the facility thank you um so I think on that note though there are some things that Community has communicated they want you were talking about the community Gathering so high school graduations are a big thing people do not want our high school graduations to happen at du anymore yep um we cannot chart our high schools as much as young presumably that's always part of that calculation and presentation you give us is how do we have enough coming in from these other uses some but not like okay about the non-profit when you look at say the operating the budget's half a million dollars a year or whatever so you'd have so much from ticket sales so much from the city potentially and then so much from non uh you know private donations to make it whole so that you could charge the schools nothing or some programs you're losing it but overall you're covering is awesome and that's the difference in point of view between the facility managers that Jenna talked about who has an obligation to you all contract with you all so that you can say wait a second I thought there was going to be this number of graduations that kind of thing and a promoter who just comes in and says this one night I want to squeeze Aurora for everything I can get so what you want with this feasibility analysis is a business plan that gives you the revenue and the expense costs that says based off of what we see as feasible and what the need is right right now we're talking about alignment on the want the feasibility study will help you really hone in on what is the need how does that tie into a business plan what does that mean for the ongoing operations and subsidy who are the players where's the money coming from right so then that's your opportunity to say our vision is that there is a balance of Community Access and affordability for the community and then this level of entertainment and sports and recreation right you'll come up with basically a model of what that balance is and then each of those will have Revenue models so that then you can say here's where our targets are going to be do we have enough Community need that can pay this much money do we then have enough commercial need that can pay this much money how does that all funnel down and then what's our bottom line all of that come in because then that will inform who's the right operator where's the location how does this work who do our partners need to be all of those pieces will come in that feasibility so that you can make sure not just to worry about the capital stack to build it but to know what it's going to mean to operate this facility for the next 30 Years right and getting all those pieces together and then my one other question which I assume is under the site analysis week of the feasibility it's just on access and making sure that we have multiple preferably I think multiple or multimetal access can you talk a little bit about the balance between geographic location and programming I I'm thinking of myself like I took a ticket to CT kill and Mockingbird I didn't say well [ __ ] that's not an aurora I'm gonna have to drive twice as this I wanted to see that so I drove to where I needed to go I've driven to Albuquerque to see a concert because that person wasn't coming to Denver like I is is how much does it play into it location versus programming a lot or am I just weird maybe both I brought through a New Jersey to go see a concert yeah to New Jersey from New York Times question yeah I think that um in a Marketplace like the Front Range because because one of the conversations we had was about the fact that it's not just Denver it's also Boulder it's also Fort Collins you know there is a kind of regional Marketplace Cheyenne and down to Albuquerque and so finding a way to Target a niche within all of that and and the honest truth is for some programming um you would be able to book the same stuff that The Laramie County Fairgrounds at the ranch is going to book because for that program I mean for for Disney On Ice say you have an ice sheet probably families are not going to say I'll only go to Loveland I would also come here so depending on the programming there's a radius of people will travel for depending on how badly they want the T-shirt it says I saw them you know um but but that for that in the marketplace councilman Memorial um yeah I maybe I'm not understanding the other component because I I like I'm tracking with the the direction of having like a facility right a larger facility and how that would be competitive um regionally but I thought I also saw you know the the first recommendation that I first you know about kind of the within the city contributed assets yeah what is that is that covered in the feasibility study that you're mentioning or what does that specifically look like if you could add some more color to that our our understanding is that that's going to be handled separately within the cities Capital planning process yeah so some of this is already in our Capital group at master plan we have some of these assets already is that need documented so it would be a capital planning process with Council to talk about okay how do we spread access to these various amenities across the city and all the boards to build quality of life destination development in the city of Aurora and kind of capture the needs of the fox replacing the seeds they're driving more foot traffic along Colfax just as one example of many of these in the city across all various Sports further questions no further questions anything else uh Jessica the next question yeah perfect so today what we're hoping to get from Council is Direction on this city council further support the study of a larger multi-purpose entertainment and events facility in that two thousand and three thousand conceived capacity range that you've heard Jenna and Chris talked about that came up through the stakeholder of the alignment process uh is your opposition to doing more researches okay and then the next one on the other across all the various boards the capital planning piece also concerns with proceeding and further creation evaluation of this I guess I have just the slight question of are we going to say oh this is a good idea we support this now and then never decide to fund to actually do all right um I guess if we move forward with this yes or you know this question [Music] um are we how do we know that we will also not be creating a situation or that we're considering complementary you know just like that we're these two are connected right like this feels very different you know understandably than like when I imagine and I we know more about what how the city does is planning right so I think of these workshops and that feels just a lot more different than the process that you might go through in developing this larger facility I just want to know that they're connected you know complementary they're not competing that kind of stuff I think Jenna used a good word ecosystem I think that's how we need the Arts entertainment ecosystem in the city of Aurora it would be all complimentary one question is this premature in the sense that the question before it says okay we're going to go forward this study yeah the feasibility and now we're saying we're going to develop a capital yeah yeah I would like to see a feasibility study that was in the previous slide before we move forward well I think I think this is really just saying could we get to a point where we could build a capital stack that would fund whatever comes out of the feasibility study so I don't see that this is getting further ahead I think it's just another component of part of that feasibility study I mean in my understanding what that question is yeah if it's Bill started we primarily just focused on the larger we're not authorizing money to be spent or to build the facility we're saying this feasibility study is going to say okay here's what the facility looks like and here is a potential Capital stack of ways that we could get there correct so I mean to me a feasibility study you it doesn't do any good unless you know that we could get there money-wise because otherwise they're going to come forward and they're going to say well here's what you could build well we already know we could build that if we don't answer the question that we can get their capitalized then we just wasted money we always wasted time further questions is there any objection to moving forward this second okay we're seeing none in that situation okay [Music] [Music] it's true [Music] [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] I'm interested [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] thank you