There is some chairs up in the front row. Two over there and at least five over that six over that side. It's like church can move to the front. Nobody wants to sit in the front row. >> There you go. >> She's on the safety committee. >> All right. I have 7 o'clock. I'm going to call the town board meeting for October 20th, 2025 to order. First item on the agenda is the approval. Uh Patrick changes. >> Uh none from staff, Mr. Chair. I will have a comment under consent agenda when we get there, though. >> All right. Port of anything? >> Not to add or delete. >> Me either. >> All right. I need a motion to approve the agenda. >> Move to approve the agenda. >> I may. We'll have to have a small added item >> involving a license agreement agreement we'll discuss later. It only take a few minutes. You want that added at towards >> under the added agenda. Okay. >> What was that? 410 cabin 61. Okay. >> I'll move to approve the agenda as amended adding the item under added agenda items 1091. >> I'll second. >> All right. All in favor say I. >> I. All opposed. >> All right. That motion carries. Item three is approval of payment of the bills. D sign. >> I signed. Move to approve payment of the bills. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I. All opposed. >> All right. All right. Then I need a motion for prior minute meetings. Uh let's see, it's October 6th. >> Mr. Chair, um I have a correction that I'd like to add on page five. Uh first item, first paragraph on that page. Uh it says that we brought I brought up the liability insurance certificate noting [clears throat] that the event occurred after the date of liability. That is not clear. It in my opinion it should read after the expiration of coverage. add that versus how it's written and uh >> Patrick has that been corrected already or >> we can correct we can correct >> Oh no I mean uh the the correction in the liability insurance >> okay >> so they fixed that part just need to have the minutes uh say that that's what I stated >> that's it on that so I'll move I have no other changes >> I have no other changes >> I'll Move to approve the town board minutes with that correction on page five. >> A second. >> All in favor say I. >> Opposed? All right, that motion carries. Item five is a consent agenda. We have three. I understand Steve, you want to pull? >> I I want to pull for a discussion item 1B. >> There's a typographical error in there. >> 5B. >> 5B, excuse me. >> Uh staff would like to pull 5A or just a correction in address. >> All right. Then I need a motion just to approve consent agenda on item 5C. >> So moved. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I opposed. >> All right. What do you got, Patrick? On the rightway permit. >> Dale, you want to make that correction? >> The address list is 5203 Summit. It should be 5206. >> Is that it? >> Yes. >> All right. I need a motion to approve that noting in that amendment. >> So, I'll second that. >> All in favor say I. >> All opposed. >> All right. And then item 5B, Beller Beach, you have a >> Yes. On page 14 of the packet, um, in the purpose and terms of the agreement, it says the YMCA staff shall provide lifeguard services for Memorial Day weekend May 23rd, 2025 to Labor Day, September 7th, 2026. I believe that should be May 23rd, 2026. >> Good catch. >> Since this is a 26 contract, >> that's it. That it that's it. >> All right. I need a motion to approve 5B as amended. >> So moved. >> Second. >> All in favor? >> I >> I All right. Item six, we have new We don't have any old business. Uh item seven is a public hearing. I know we have a bunch of folks here and we have three separate public hearings. I just want to remind everyone uh this is going to get long and lengthy. So, if you have comments that you want to speak to these uh items, we're going to try to limit everybody to three minutes just to be respectful so everybody gets a chance to speak. Uh, also I'm going to have uh Chad explain if you disagree with assessment numbers, what the process is to appeal that. And then I'll also have u Mr. Kelly, our finance officer, explain how we arrive at our numbers through uh bonding. So Chad, >> thank you, Mr. Chair. just to remind you in it's in your notice that if you intend to appeal your assessment, you have to file an objection with the town prior to the meeting. Now, the town has taken a more lenient view of that. If you file [snorts] an objection before the the vote is taken, we will re we will acknowledge that you filed your objection. You have to do that if you intend to appeal your assessment. Now, in terms of appealing the assessment, if the assessment is adopted, you have 30 days to serve an appeal on the town and then file the appeal with district court. That should all be your notice, but I just want to make sure we go through this. So, again, and by the way, um, in the past practice been we've simply passed, uh, I think we've been passing something around if you want just to appeal your assessment, >> just sign it. Make sure to provide your property address so we know which one you are and that will we'll treat that as being an objection as required by the statute. Okay. Any questions? All right. Also too, I want to remind you too, um, when you want to speak, you must come to the podium and give your full name and address for the minutes. And then, uh, we don't want talk between the audience. We'll never pick it up on camera. So, All right, Tom. >> Okay. Uh, how we came up with it, uh, the town, uh, we had the three projects. Uh, we issued uh, $4,390,000 in bonds for these projects. The coupon on the bond, uh, it was a 10-year bond. It the coupons run from 5% down to 4%. uh because we received a uh discount on the bonds uh based on our bond rating and everything. Uh the township has a bond rating of double A1 from uh standard and pores and a double A plus uh from Moody's. Uh both of those are one step below AAA which is the best you can have. Uh so based on that the average coupon of these bonds is uh four basically 4.8% uh because when we uh issue bonds each year that there's a a debt payment the town has to have 105% of that annual payment. And so because of that, uh, the town has a policy that when they do the assessments, they assess, uh, 1.5% over whatever our average bond coupon is. So with a 4 uh 8% uh, coupon, uh, adding 1 and a.5% gets you to the 6 uh, 3% interest that the assessments are at. Okay. Any questions from the board? No. >> All right. Uh, we're going to move on. Item seven, this the public hearing. The first one is the Anderson Lane Street improvements. Um, I need a motion to wave the reading. >> I'll make a motion to wave the reading as properly published in the newspaper. >> Second. >> Motion made. Second. All in favor say I. >> All opposed. Then I need a motion to open up the public hearing. >> I'll move to open up the public hearing for the Anderson uh lane project 24 2024-3. >> Second. >> All in favor say I. >> I. >> All opposed. All right. What we'll do is Larry will review the project and when he's through and with all our questions are done, we will open it up for public comment so we can try to keep this going pretty smoothly. All right. Larry, you want to review this one for us? >> Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair and town board. Um the first of our three projects we're discussing tonight is Anderson Lane. Anderson Lane is a a short culde-sac um roadway off of Centerville Road. And you can see that on on your screen where it's located. Now this project um the roadway itself didn't have concrete curbon gutter. It was a rural section and we looked at various options through the feasibility report um back last year and we recommended a rec reclamation with a new curb and gutter for the roadway. [clears throat] I had a few a few pictures of some of the construction activities that were occurring. Um the picture on the right is of of the reclamation machine. um mixing and grinding that puminous to use as new base for the for the roadway. You see the grater grading some of that. Um we did some drainage improvements um on the project and you can see some of that work occurring on here. Um we're still working through some drainage um concerns in the neighborhood, but those are still um being worked out. Again, you can see the grater there. Here's a new curbing going in. Um, we had some tie-ins with driveways. So, if a a concrete driveway was impacted, we replaced that section with new concrete. If it was batuminous, um, we paved batuminous. Here's some pictures of the paving operations. This is the first one is at the culde-sac and um the other uh paving occurring there. Um so next steps for the project itself is uh we're still completing some restoration. Um even today they were doing some of that work in the rain. Um we're planning to do the final lift of asphalt. Uh the plan is to get that completed on Wednesday of uh this week to pave uh that final lift. Um and then from there it'll be just final cleanup. um working out some of the resident concerns, if there's issues, um if you have any construction related items, um please contact uh us or the project inspector um with your concerns. If you have if you're seeing something that doesn't look right in your yard or driveway or you're seeing something else that you think should be addressed, please contact us and we'll um add it to our our list of things to to correct. Um there's for these types of projects, there's a um there's what's called a punch list where we we add those to a list and and we try to chip away at things, but it's not uncommon for some of the some of these items to to go into the next year to get finalized and completed. um to in order to kind of protect that that new investment here for the street. Um we've been doing a chip seal in after about 3 years. It helps uh um prolong the life of that that pavement. So you can see that in 3 years and that's not an assessed um it's a maintenance classified as a maintenance operation. So, it's not assessed, but it's it's protecting that surface um for long term. And we're doing more and more chip seals on our streets as as as they can um accept them. Um and it just helps protect that that surface over the long term. All right. So, we're going to talk a bit about the assessments. Um um for assessment type projects, we have to follow follow a very um specific process. And this kind of lays out all the steps we need to do to assess on these types of projects. And we're kind of getting to the end of the of our list of items. And tonight is the assessment hearing. So I'll walk through some of the numbers. We have uh project costs laid out here including construction, some of the inspection and engineering, some in administration costs, um legal bonding, some miscellaneous costs, and some of the um soil borings, televising and and delineations, and then an appraisal was also completed um of the project as well. So the assessments follow the the town's assessment policy and so um and and the state statute. So our proposed assessments um are to the benefiting properties. Um the town uses a unit assessment in which uh every property is assessed the same amount. Um and then the number of units can fluctuate um depending on what what could be classified as uh um um could be subdivided. So in some cases on all three projects there's uh properties that were felt uh and talking with the town planner that have the the area and frontage frontage to be uh um subdivided in the future. So um and then the other piece of that number of units is corner properties are assessed a half a unit for each improved side. Um throughout the evolution of the township projects, the um historically they the town has been trying or using an assessment that assesses as much as we can feeling that the benefiting properties are seeing the the bulk of the um benefit of uh doing the improvements. And overall the the the amount of the assessments have gone up but the cost for the projects have um also gone up as well. So from an overall percentage um our assess our assessment percentage is continuing to to uh decline as um construction costs rise. Um again, the assessment can't exceed the benefit received and we tested that with an appraisal um that evaluated what what benefit should that be and we use that assessment by an appraiser to uh determine what that assessment amount should be. And in this case for Anderson Lane, the benefit was determined to be 12% or $12,000 per unit. All right. So, this is the assessment map for the project. Um, all the properties that we feel are benefiting the from the improvement are are shown on this uh u map. And I want to highlight a few things here. So, this is a corner lot. It's gets assessed a half unit and then it was determined it could be subdivided. Um, so 1.5 units for this corner lot here off of Centerville Road. Um, on the other side of the the street, it looks like it's similar area for the for the property. However, there's wetland at the corner and um um so that was determined not to be um buildable. So we are proposing an assessment of one unit for that property. Um we evaluated um this property at the end to determine um how many units should be applied and for this case the culdeac kind of ends right here at the end of this uh at the start of these properties evaluating some of the >> Hey Larry I don't think your mouse is showing up on the screen. >> Oh I'm sorry. Oh. Um, at the end of the culde-sac, we evaluated again a desktop review of the wetlands and determined that between those two parcels that are shown as zero, um, it's uh, one unit. Um during the feasibility report process, we um took uh the the data from the county on properties along this frontage and calculated 19.5 units. Um as we further further evaluated through the process and in leading up to this assessment hearing, um one of those units was removed. It's the unit um just to the north of 1141. That property is also 1141 to the north and it's owned by uh um one individual for both parcels, but that parcel to the north doesn't have frontage. So, and there's a a lot of wet land on that property as well. And so, that that property was removed um as we move forward to tonight. and we can come back to any any one of these slides. Okay, so this is a a summary of uh the overall assessments and so the overall project costs you can see were 789,500 and taking out uh costs for storm storm water improvements, the sanitary sewer improvements and water um the overall accessible costs um were found to be $587,000. Um again those accessessible units 18.5 um multiply that by the assessment rate of 12,000 and you get $222,000 for the total assessment for the project. Um the assessment term um if uh if you elect to have the assessment um roll onto your taxes um your property taxes it be on there for 10 years. And again, as Tom mentioned, the uh 6.3% interest rate over that period. And so this is a payment schedule for that. And so um using the 12,6.3% over 10 years, you're paying a principal on equal principal each year of $1,200 and plus interest each year. And that interest amount drops as you pay off principle. And so the total each year is shown here on the on the total column rolling down. The first year includes uh interest starting from tonight. And so there's a little bit more interest on that first year. It includes all of 2026 and then three months of uh 2025. All right. Here's so here's the funding breakdown. Um the township funds uh 365,000. You can see the assessments of 222. The water improvements uh the work um done on the project for water main. Um you can see that amount 28,000 storm sew improvements 155,000 and sanitary improvements of 18,000. Uh just to be clear, go back one, Larry. That those last three, those are enterprise funds. So when you pay your water bill or your sewer bill or your sanitary th those funds, that's where that money is coming from. So it it's like uh I don't want to say a kitty, but it it's set up just for this reason. So when we have these projects, we can help fund the projects out of those funds. Okay. So tonight the requested action is hold the assessment hearing um and then there's a resolution in your packet um for um adopting and confirming the assessment amount for this project. And um in this case we need a super majority for that uh resolution meaning um four fifths of the of the vote needs to confirm adoption of that assessment. So in this case it' be all all three um board members. >> That's what I have for you. I'm happy to answer any questions. >> Steve? Nope. I think we've been over this a number of times and you covered the items that um our board meeting the last time there were some resident concerns and um I think there was a list made and most of I assume most of those were already all addressed. >> I don't know that they're all addressed but um we're still working with those property owners on resolution. >> Okay. And you're willing to add other items tonight that are still on your part list? >> Yep. I'm fine. Nope. I'm good. >> Uh you want to go back to the there was some issue on uh storm drainage if you want to go back to that map. I understand that uh you're working through it, but we still have some concerns. Um this is going into a wetland going north. Is that where the issue is? >> Um yes. I I'm sorry my my mouse doesn't work there, but um it's between 1141 and 1155. Um there's a drainage path kind of more on the 1141 property and heads north into a a wetland area. And so we're working with uh at as we discussed at the last town board meeting with the residents, um there's concern over that drainage area. And so we're continue to work with the property owners on that. >> Okay. You had mentioned there's a either wetland or uh it's not really a storm water retention pond back there, is there? >> No, it's more of a wetland >> and that's just not filtering the water. Is that why it's backing up? It's uh appears to be um the vegetation appears to have choked choked the the drainage path to um it's slower drainage than maybe it hasn't has uh drained in the past in that area. >> All right. Because I uh as a representative of the township, I sit on the board of directors for Balamo and I do have a meeting Wednesday night. So, I I want to make sure I want to bring this up to them so we can get that on the radar with those folks because they're they're the ones that are going to have to address this um as part of the watershed district. So, but I'll have that information when I and I'll be able to advise staff on what we can come up with. So, if that's part of your concerns of Anderson Lane, um some of it's out of our township hands, but we still are working on that problem. So, just to be just want to make sure that we haven't forgot about it and we are trying to work through it. So, All right. No more questions from the board. >> No. >> All right. Hearing none. I need a motion to open up for public comment. >> I'll move to open the hearing up for public comment. >> Second. >> All in favor say I. I. >> I. All opposed. All right. If you want to address this uh like I said, you need to come up uh to the podium with your name and address. We're going to try to keep this to a threeminute limit because we got a lot of people here. So, I don't want to see anybody rant for an hour. [laughter] But we do want to hear from everyone. So, that too. And I'd like to make sure you keep your comments specific. I don't want to hear 20 people talk about drainage. We're we're working on that. So, >> yeah. No, I understand that. >> Okay. Appreciate it. >> My name is Patrick Olsson. I live at 1141 Anderson Lane, the property that's in question here. And again, we're I've talked to Larry a number of times about this. Hopefully, we can come to some solution to that problem. I'm I'm I'm hoping that we can uh one of the things that I I wanted to bring up is because of there's so many projects being involved last board meeting um three more uh feasibility studies were approved and projects are going forward and there's a few things that we've experienced on Anderson Lane which have been disheartening at best. And for anybody that's watching or is going to see this, I just wanted to make note. Um there there's a number of things that I I don't know who's in charge of overseeing day-to-day operations as this stuff is going on. I mean, there there has been just one thing after another problems with this thing. We had water truck on the on the block for most of the time. No water was being spread. The dust was unbelievable on that road. Um the parking the parking was not addressed. Uh the the solution that somebody came up with was that uh all 18.5 homes were going to park in the turn lane on on Centerville Road and that's unacceptable on about a thousand levels. That that just wouldn't work. So the residents were left finding parking during this time. Um the trash that since I I've lived there almost 19 years comes on Wednesday. Everybody knows it comes on Wednesday. I think something has to be done in coordination. And I understand some things come up where you're going to block the road, but coordination has to be there so people's lives aren't disrupted. And moving trash cans uh up and down the entire block, I can understand one side or the other. Whatever. Um the mail the mail got moved out to, we were told early on that it was going to remain in front of the homes. It got moved out to Centerville Road. Again, anybody's familiar with that area, Centerville Road is not a good place for people to be walking out to get their mail. Not not on a thousand levels. Um the the one thing that really stuck out to me when I looked at the meeting minutes and and what we were going through tonight is that the projected cost when we came to the meeting in January was going to be uh $961,100. It came in here at 789500. Okay, which is 171,600 under. And yet we're still at the same thing because of the appraisals. I I I get where you're going with that. But at some point, we got to start talking about some savings here rather than this is status quo and this is how much things are going to cost. The barrel's running dry with with ever ever ever uh increasing taxes, everything that's going on. It it just feels like a rubber stamp. Just boom, we're going to do it and that's it. Um now, obviously, I'm going to be contesting the the appraisal uh due in part to the drainage issues and some of the digging and some of the things that went on there. And again, I'm not going to go into that. We'll we'll discuss that at a later time. But there has to be a little bit more control on what is going on in people's neighborhoods. Um th this was unbelievable and I'll be anxious to hear from whomever on the delineation report that was done by the wershed and and then then we'll I hope it happens in the window where either I don't contest it or do you know so it gives me a little bit of wiggle room on that too not do that. >> I don't know if I can promise that. That's a that's a big hurdle for, you know, the way government works. That's >> I do. I do and I understand that and I appreciate that. I I really do. But if it were to to happen that way, it might save a lot of monkey business and heartache for a lot of people. Uh legal action, whatever we whatever you want to call it. Um Larry, I hope that we can continue to have conversations to try to resolve some of the issues that we have. I think there's some other people uh on the road that probably can expand on on some of the things that I I mentioned. And thank you for your time. >> Thank you, sir. They sell 1155 Anderson Lane. So, I'm right next to Pat's property there, too. Um, agree with everything Pat has said through this whole thing. There's a lot of issues that happened during the midst of this project that were just unacceptable. Um, all of the things that Pat mentioned, so I won't go into that again. I do want to bring up one point. Um, the drainage is a much larger issue than just the drainage between 11:41 and 11:55. that needs to be addressed. It's a bigger issue than that. So, is the is the town call Are you guys aware of that? That's what we that's why we rely on our engineers. >> Okay. Well, the engineers didn't do an assessment on the front end of this project. That's the problem. >> So, that's part of our concern. >> I can't speak for that. >> Yeah. [laughter] So, that's that's where I'm at. The issue is larger than this. There's drainage continuing all the way across my property 1155. that if that water backs up in the drainage, one of the issues is going to be backed up all the way across my property. >> Larry, where does that break? I know it crowns both ways. It drains east one way and then west the other. Any idea where that break is? >> Yeah, it's kind of where Anderson the Anderson and Anderson Lane on the map. >> But what what house number >> break that goes? >> Uh yeah, 11:31. So from the culdeac to 1131, it [clears throat] drains to the that low point there. Okay. >> And then heads north. >> All right. Anything else, sir? >> Nope. That's it. Thanks. >> All right. Thank you. >> Anyone else for Anderson Lane? Hi, I'm Josh Farmer, 1140 Anderson Lane. Um, one item I want to uh mention, there's a fire hydrant in our front yard. Um, if you look at the fire hydrant in comparison to where the surroundable curb is, it's actually like below where the collar is for the attachment for the the hose. So, it feels like that needs to be elevated. There's no breakoff collar. It's subgrade. So, like that should be lifted in some capacity. it. Dale, are you aware of that one? >> Yes. And it can be lifted, but it's been that way for a number of years. And the road grade, Larry, didn't change that much from before >> the height. >> Well, I would encourage you to come out and take a look at that again after after the the dirt and the sod was just laid today. It is it is below the curb height. So, if a car hits that, what happens to that? Yeah, >> there's no breakoff collar on there. >> Well, there is a breakoff at grade. >> It's below grade. It might be. I don't know how far we'll agree. >> Well, you should look at that. Again, I encourage you to come and look at it. >> It's public works job. Um the the other thing I want to mention, just kind of adding on to what Pat had mentioned earlier, too. Every Wednesday, we have trash service. And so, I actually called Sarah this morning because we have a major delivery coming this Wednesday on Anderson Lane, same day as trash. And I I hear from you because Sarah told me this morning at 9:00 there's no issue with the delivery date. And now I hear final lift is Wednesday. It's trash day again. every trash day is is impacted every Wednesday. So, we've we've had to scramble to try to coordinate to just get garbage service and I'm really frustrated with trying to coordinate my my major delivery coming on Wednesday. So, there should be access on our road. Like I I know that the final lift's occurring, but I would encourage you to push that date back hopefully Thursday if possible so we can get trash service, we can get all delivery scheduled because we've been trying to be accommodating with with the workers and the construction timeline, too. But I I'm going to be seriously impacted if I if I can't this get this delivery on Wednesday. So >> thank you. >> Thanks Josh >> Mr. Hogy. >> Hello Mark Hogy and I'm here representing North Oaks Farms. Um we are the owners of the Zero Anderson Lane properties and first of all I want to thank you for the work that was done. It looks great. And I'm going to give you a letter here just stating that we want to appeal until we can uh be certain that it is in fact a buildable lot. And if it is a buildable lot, we're more than happy to pay our fair share of the assessment. So, I'll just give you that letter and again, thank you for the improvements >> right here. >> Come on over, >> Mark. Thanks, Mark. >> Thanks, Mark. >> One last thing. I'd be happy to collaborate with the township to try to find a a solution to the drainage issue if it involves our property to the north. So, I'll just make that offer. >> We appreciate that. >> You're welcome. >> All right. Thank you. >> Hello, my name is uh Matthew Spenson at 1156 Anderson Lane. Um, some of my questions I mean I have several. I'm not going to belabor some of the points that my neighbors have made already, but um some of mine are more technical in nature. I believe you said that the bonds were discounted, which is why there's a four and a half to 5% coupon. Correct. >> Right. >> Okay. So why then at 105% is it 6.3% because that is not then if it's discounted 105% of the initial amount. >> It just makes up that one. it helps mix up the 105% that we have to uh collect each year on it. Uh the town a number of years ago uh even before we started these 10-year uh the 10-year road project adopted an assessment policy. And the assessment policy uh at that point stated that we would assess uh projects at 1 and a.5% over whatever we issue the bonds at. or if we don't issue bonds, it would still be one and a half% over as if we did. >> Okay. So, it doesn't matter that par is not being hit. It's and discounted. Okay. Um, second question I have, there has been uh amendments to this project that have been made. >> Um, obviously we've already talked about the 900 and some thousand that was the initial cost versus the 700 and some that this came in at. uh those don't impact the assessed value. You assessed prior to and did not assess after the fact. And who is doing this assessment? Where is that person coming in? Where are they getting their numbers? Are you paying that person? Because that sounds like conflict of interest. I just want to know how that works. >> Yeah, I can speak to that. So, um, yeah, so we we do a we hire an appraiser to evaluate that so we can feel confident in the assessment amount and so the variation in cost doesn't really affect that. They're the town board town board's uh assessment policy is trying to maximize what um those assessments are for these projects to the benefiting property owners. Um we do that as a check and then um as if you do appeal and all the way through um you know there's a process that uh you would perhaps hire your own appraiser to determine if you agree with uh the appraisers our appraisers information. >> Absolutely. And so my question then becomes, you don't think that it's a conflict of interest to hire your own assessor, someone that you are paying hoping that they may get future contracts to get a higher assessed value. >> Chad, do you want to speak to that? >> Okay. If I understand what you're saying is you think it's a conflict of interest for the town to hire an appraiser to determine what the assessment should be. >> Yes. That's actually very good practice because if the appraiser states that the amount we intend to assess for is actually bel above the benefit then we need to lower that benefit because again under stat under the law. Anytime the assessment exceeds the amount of actual benefit and benefit is defined by increase in value of the property then the assessment is a taking. So, the point of doing an an appraiser ahead of time, appraisal ahead of time, is to make sure that we're not assessing above the benefit. And no, it's not a it's not a conflict of interest because we'll h hang on, hang on. Because if you appeal it, the town will hire an appraiser to look at your property. >> So, you're going to hire another appraiser? We'll might use the same one, but we will have the we will have understand that these appraisal call these appraisals aren't that expensive because it's an area wide appraisal. However, each individual appraisal each individual appeal will require an appraisal. >> Okay, fair enough. >> Properly defended. >> My question, and this is where I think you and I are missing, is the town is hiring. There's no general fund that the the town can pay to have someone else hire an independent appraiser. You're hiring your own appraiser to come through and put the assessment on. >> Okay. If and I if we if you appeal it, if anyone appeals it >> when Yes, >> we can win. Okay, fine. When there will be a court trial and at that court trial, both sides should, especially the town will have to present expert testimony regarding the increase in value. That requires an appraiser hired by the town. So the best thing to do is do is to determine ahead of time whether we are on the right track and that's what we did. Most cities don't do that and I think it's a bad practice because you run the risk of assessing more than the benefit and it's better to know ahead of time to save the town the cost of an appeal. So ultimately in each one of these appeals there will be appraisers. We will have one. The town will have one and the homeowner should have one. So there's no conflict of interest there. I mean, that's what we have to do. You appeal it. We have to defend it. And the only way to defend these things properly is to hire an appraiser to actually appraise each individual each individual property separately. >> I'm not I want it on the record. I am not saying that it is bad practice to have an appraiser come through prior to a project. I think that is good practice. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think it's bad practice for the assessing municipality to be the one hiring that assessor. >> Well, let me ask you this question. Who should hire it? >> It I'm not in the government. I don't know. >> Well, that's the government. Okay. Again, I I'm I I >> I I I got to be honest with you. is fair >> versus the conflict of interest in you being the ones that are appraising that value, assessing that value, and now we're on the hook for it. >> Well, there is no other meth there's no other >> explor method. I understand. Okay, thank you. That's it. That's all I need. >> Okay. >> I think we just dis agree to disagree is what it comes down to. Fair enough. >> And these appraisers are they're certified. They're Yes. you know, they're professionals. >> Totally understood. I get that. I just the hiring agency should not be the one. >> Well, the county won't do it. I'll tell you that. >> All right. My my two cents. When we go out for bids on anything, this road project, we had engineers numbers that we thought should be in the ballpark. We go out put it out for bids. We get 10 bids. If they come under, great. I don't know if we can we can just put out a public uh bid for assessors. that that's that's our only option that now we have to have people bidding to get the assessment. I don't know if I want somebody bidding to do our assessments. I I would like some we need professional certified appraisers. So >> well I like I said all I'm saying is I feel that the town is more within their rights than the way they do it and I don't see any conflict of interest. Anyway, anyone else? Derek Brunson, 1114 Anderson. Um, you know, like a lot of my other neighbors were touching, the $12,000 is a lot of money on the project. We've heard the city has gotten um grants from the state this year. Just wanted to ask how that money was getting spent. um $7 million to the board. >> That's a one-time uh payment to the township. Whereas our surrounding communities get uh case of Voy Pair Lake, they get what 2 million a year. >> Two and a half a year. >> Two and a half a year. We get one time 7 million. So we've taken that 7 million and devised a a a formula on how to spend that on every single project. What we end up doing is trying to take that money and dispersing it across all the residents because everybody benefits from your road improvement, my road improvement, and that's how that money spent. And hopefully we can run that for 20 years. >> Sure. And how was it applied on these projects? >> Uh maybe you can speak to that, Tom. >> Yeah, I'll take that one. When we issued the bonds, we asked our bond uh fiscal agent uh to run the numbers uh as if we didn't have th those funds. [clears throat] And then uh based on the um I don't know if it's policy or what the board has how the board has determined to spend those funds uh which is basically uh to take the interest we earn each year plus half of that interest amount. So you're basically doingund I don't know if it's 150% of the interest that you earn in a year and apply it uh to that. So for this bond issue uh it was basically just over 357,000. So we had them run the numbers uh without the 350 or for the full amount. Then we had them run the numbers subtracting 357. So we issued uh the bonds uh less the 357 which then saves us the town and the residents uh principal and interest payments. Uh that difference uh for this particular project uh will total about $467,000 just over $467,000. And we're using that to reduce when Larry showed the slide uh with the town uh portion that that 356 portion there. uh we use that to lower that amount so that we're not uh levying property taxes uh on all the residents of the township. So, we're basically over the life of this bond, uh, we're basically reducing our levy to the residents to pay off this particular bond issue about $50,000 a year. And the board felt that was the only fair way to take this money and use it uh, financially, fiscally responsible, so all the town uh, benefits from this. >> Oh, no. Like like I said, it's just a very expensive process and just wanted to hear where it was getting. >> You know what, we all live in the township and we all get eventually get assessed. >> Absolutely. >> Some of them are a lot more, trust me. >> So, >> yeah. [clears throat] And the other thing I just wanted to touch base on again, like a lot of my neighbors here, you know, and even the ones that aren't affected, we are we are concerned with the watershed issues that are there. They are are larger than what they seem. you know, we're hearing rumors that they might be like not not approved by the water district and stuff and you know what what are the plausible solutions there. Um well, like I said, I will be bringing this up Wednesday night at our board of directors meeting with Balamo and a lot of this stuff sometimes is grant funding. Some of the uh some of it we can fund directly out of Balamo. It all depends on everything is rated as priorities. So, >> yeah, >> but we obviously I want this one on the radar. >> Yeah. Yeah. I guess we're just concerned that there's this isn't creating future construction projects, especially with uh with the headaches that we've had over there. Um I guess you know what I mean. There's there's still a lot of work to be done there to fix that by the sounds of it. >> So, >> right. Thanks, Derek. >> Thank you. >> Anyone else? Going once. Oh, you go read Walstead 1094 Anderson Lane and when it comes to that overlay deal and uh neighbors talking about garbage day, you know, delay it because otherwise they'll tear up the culdeac because they will turn around in that small culdeac. And the other thing is I can't believe he put a engineer or a what do you call inspector on the site first job that didn't know what some of the components were of the project. you know what a gate valve was and a few other things that you know someone some more experienced person would have had dust control on on his mind but not a first year art school experienced people is what we need for inspectors out there to see and understand what's actually going on so in the future Sure. Thanks. All right. Thank you. All right. Anyone else? [clears throat] Going once. Going twice. All right. I'm [clears throat] going to call for a motion to close the public portion of the meeting. >> I'll move to close the public portion of the hearing. >> A second. >> Motion made a second. All in favor say I. I. All opposed. >> All right. Uh any other questions of staff uh engineers or Chad? All right. Hearing none. Uh looks like I'm looking for a motion for the resolution. I'll make a motion based on the uh information presented tonight, plus the anticipated followup on on the punch list items and actionable items to approve a resolution adopting and confirming the assessments for improvement 2024-3. >> We'll second. >> All right, motion's made and second. All in favor say I. >> I. All opposed. >> All right, that motion carries. Thank you folks. We appreciate your input and this is how we progress and make sure these things we try to resolve these as we go along. All right, we're going to move on. Uh the next one is improvement for Portland Woods street improvement. Again, I need a motion to wave the hearing. >> I'll move to wave the reading that it was properly published. >> I'll second. >> Motion made second. All in favor say I. >> I. I'll >> All right. Then I need a motion to open up the public hearing. I I'll move to open up the public hearing for pro improvement project 2024-2 Portland Woods. >> Second motion made second. All in favor say I. >> I opposed. All right, Larry, you want to run this one for us? >> Yes. Uh before we do that, as people are leaving. >> Um Oh, okay. Um the the new pavement is going to be a little bit soft at first and so I I just wanted to encourage and I I apologize for not mentioning it earlier. Um with all these projects that when you're driving on that fresh pavement to to try to avoid sitting still and and moving your tires, try when you're backing out to keep things rolling as you're turning. So, um, and and then try to go forward a bit and then make your turn slowly so we don't tear the the the surface of that, uh, pavement. Um, this time of year it's better because it's cooler. But, um, we've seen that in the past. The other thing is with fresh uh with fresh sod or fresh restoration, um try not to uh try to let that new grass grow uh a higher length before you uh mow it and most likely in the spring. Let those roots um the the roots will be starting to grow this year, but then in the spring also be still growing. So, um if you can help us by watering if it's a drier um those that new sad areas, that would be helpful. And then, uh also avoid mowing it, especially down um maybe to the rest of your uh um yard, like try to keep the mower at a higher setting. >> Plus, too, uh we do withhold money from these contractors. So their incentive is to continue the project and get these punch lists figured out because they don't get paid till they're completely done. Okay. So yes, our next next project is Portland Woods. A lot of similar aspects of Portland Woods to uh similarity to um the Anderson Lane project we just mentioned. Um, this project had concrete curb and gutter. Um, but it was uh in poor condition and it was removed with this project. Um, you can see some of the photos of the pre-existing road surface and curb. Again, we we reclaimed the pavement using that material um grinding it and using it as new base for the roadway. And we did a number of drainage improvements um as well on this project to uh promote better drainage. Um this these pictures kind of show the new curb and gutter um using a surmountable type curb. You see the the directing that that water to the uh inlet um at in the mid portion of Portland Woods. some paving photos and curb um with uh some of the restoration areas that we're work working on. Um this project also has um some cleanup final cleanup to do. Again, if there's concerns for um individual concerns for the property, please connect with us. Uh call the project inspector to have things looked at. Um this project is also was planned for Wednesday for paving. Um the same contractor is doing this in Anderson Lane. So if we are looking at shifting that paving date to Thursday, it'd also shift this project's paving date. Again, we chip seal the project in three years to kind of keep and seal that um pavement service for longevity. I won't go into this slide. It's similar to the slide I did for Anderson Lane following our our process. Um project costs for this project uh included construction and engineering. Um and you can see some of the numbers there. Total projects cost $341,459. Um assessments. Uh again, we're using the unit method. I won't go over that again. It's uh the corner lots are a half unit for each improved side and uh one unit each for others. Um we do have two multi-unit properties on this project and I'll go over that here when we see the map. So this these this is the assessment map showing all the benefiting properties. Um you can see this large parcel at 5286. um similar to the Anderson Lane, they have a large drainage um wetland here at the corner. So the corner is a that half unit that is not accessible. So um we uh are just assessing one unit in that case. Um you can see this property is the multi-unit property. It's a townhouse type unit with two garages, two dwellings. So that's assess assessed at a 6% um of the unit assessment. So for those two properties, they're paying a a lower assessment because the the one parcel has two basically two properties on it. Um and it's in accordance with the assessment policy. I'm working our way back around toward Portland Avenue. We have a property that um we're uh assigning 1.5 units to it. Um has their driveway off of Portland Avenue. Um so they're they have a a half unit at the corner and then they were determined to be u subdividable and so that is another unit for that property. Um there is no water stubbed to that. So if it ever was subdivided, they would have to cut in that stub. Um the property owner have had conversations with the property owner here. They're um contesting that um additional unit. They um and they may be here to speak about that, but um they don't have any plans to subdivide. So they may be bringing that up. Um here's the assessment summary here again. Um 341,000 overall project cost. Of that uh 285,000 is uh the assessible amount. That's that's not coming from other funds, the water fund, the sanitary fund, and the storm sewer fund. Um 7.7 units total at $12,000 for the assessment rate is 92,400. Again, it's assessment term of 10 years and 6.3% interest rate. Um, this uh payment schedule is exactly the same as uh the one for Anderson Lane. It's the same u principal amount and then uh the same interest rate. So, it's the exact same payment schedule as Anderson Lane. Um here's the funding table including the township funds of 193,000. the assessments of 90 92,000 water funds of about 15,000 storm funds of 38,000 and uh sanitary funds of 3,400. Again, this project cost came in lower than our original project estimate. So again, we're uh the requested action again is to hold the assessment hearing and adopt confirm and adopt the assessment amount for Portland Wood Street permits. Thank you, >> Steve. Questions? >> Nope. I think we've went over this a number of times except for the fact what is the major is there any major outstanding item yet to be finished on this project? The paving that's gonna happen this week is the major piece. Otherwise, we're looking at cleanup and other individual issues. >> Okay. Outside of the final wear code or that's it. >> Okay. >> Beth, >> I'm done. >> All right. Hearing no other comments from the board. I need a motion to open this up for public comment. >> I'll move to open the hearing up for public comment. >> I'll second. >> All in favor say I. I. >> All opposed. Again, if you wish to speak to this item, you need to come to the podium. Name and address. [clears throat] >> Hi, Erin Parr. I'm at 5272. So, that 1.5 that you were showing on that the assessment. >> Want to go back to that slide, L? >> Yes. >> So, what I'm hearing you say is when you assess it at 1.5 is when it's benefiting more than one side of our property. And right there, I mean, it's pretty obvious it's only on one side of my property right away. Correct. >> The improvements are on one side. Yes. >> Okay. And also, that's a road I've never driven on because, as you also mentioned, my driveway is on the other road. And I started contesting this in January when we got the initial letter. I generally work on Monday night and had to take off to do this today. So, I can't go to the meetings. I sent an email Monday or I'm sorry, January. And then again in March, no response. So, I voiced this early that I didn't find this to be a necessary project. I didn't in the pictures you showed, it really didn't look like it was that bad. And it it wasn't a bad it's a tiny culde-sac or seven houses as you were showing. Seems very unnecessary to drop huge amounts on people like this. And I know you kind of laughed that there's a lot of people that see much worse ones, but for some people, an $18,000 assessment is pretty detrimental. And if I gave that impression, I'm sorry. Never laugh at people. >> It's not funny when it's like that's my kid's child uh you know, college fund. It's not funny. And I didn't ever want it done and it's been an inconvenience for months and here we are. >> Well, >> and I don't understand how I'm being assessed at 1.5. It is a bigger uh property of a bigger yard and I know you said it could be buildable. I I don't know. I mean, we've never considered tossing another driveway in another home in our backyard. Probably most people have not, but >> well, to speak to road improvements, Dale, you could probably talk to that on how we grade our roads >> in relation to >> how the condition you're Yeah, the condition. So, I did a rating and and Portland Woods from your view probably did look pretty good, but it was skin patch just trying to hold the top together. So there was, you don't drive it, so you probably don't see it, but I'm sure some of the residents that drive it observe the poor drainage and the >> Okay. I just And again, the $18,000 improvement to my property. I very much contest that. I disagree. I don't think that my house has gone up $18,000 in value for a curb that went on the side. >> Yeah. What was that rated at? >> It's like a 1 >> two or something. >> Okay. Well, we go to five. Five is the best road. Zero is terrible. When the road gets under two and that triggers the improvement. So now on the aspect of one and a half, we have a town policy. Larry, you don't have a a uh satellite of that, do you? Where the house sits? >> Um I thought I did, but I don't have >> pictures if you need it. >> Well, I was just curious because we did discuss this at our exec meeting, I believe, uh about if it was dividable or not. Is that what it was? I don't remember. There's another property, but I'd have to see the aerial to see it. >> Technology. >> Yeah, we'll pull it up in a second. Hang on. Hey, hang on. We're not going to get you unless you're on the podium. So, otherwise, the audience won't hear you. People at home watching won't hear. So, that's why we have to come to the podium. At least this is the one I'm thinking of. Maybe I'm We look at so many of these that >> probably be the one on the left there. Yeah. >> All right. So, that's [clears throat] the one, Larry. It's uh it's dividable. >> Yes. So, you can see where the house configur you can see her driveway as as we mentioned that goes out to Portland Avenue. And so the the additional unit is is the property her backyard area and frontage is uh found to be subdividable. Now there is no water and sewer stubs. So there those would be have to be installed to do a um an improvement to add a add a property um a dwelling. >> So it couldn't be a second unit. It could it could be because that >> they put th forth another million dollars to whatever to build up your sewage. I mean, >> doesn't it seem kind of obvious? I just >> the lots are all predicated on square footage. So, if you're able to take a chunk off and leave the 12,000 square feet, that makes it a buildable lot. Now, Chad, we did discuss something about future assessments. I don't remember. Well, under the statute, if you don't assess the property tonight and they later hook up, the town can assess again in the future. >> You mean if I build in the future, you're saying? >> Yeah. and you'd get the property get assessed not only the cost but also the interest acrewing. >> That's great. I don't care because I'm not doing that. [laughter] It never was an option. >> Well, but the point is points being made here is that you could >> and you guys because you're going to charge me this much and I sell it and make two properties and crowd everybody or what >> the approximately 15 years ago, maybe 20 now, it's been a while. The town went through an exhaustive process of deciding how they're going to assess things because assessments have have certain constitutional parameters you got to meet. We're talking about different methods and one of them was the unit method. That's what the town decided because that's what is found to be most most acceptable in terms of law and also pro also uh residents and under that method if your house if your lot your property could submit could uh could support more than one unit you're going to get assessed for more than one unit. This has been a I'm not kidding this is I'm not making this this process the town took quite a long time. I would think I think it went on for maybe three to four years deciding what process should be should be uh followed and this is the process the town came up with. The fact is at some point in time if your lot wasn't if you couldn't add another lot then you wouldn't have another unit. Okay. But the fact is that you could under the policy which the town adopted you're being assessed for that additional unit. So on the other one that's across the street from me that does use you know that does benefit by two sides of it. Why are they not built at 1.5 and their yard looks to be I mean from physically seeing it for the last 5 years and >> you know this picture why are they not being assessed at 1.5 when we are >> Larry doesn't that one have wetland? >> Yeah. Oh you can see my my uh cursor now. Um this area here is a a lowland area. Um unbuildable. >> Okay. But the but the square footage, right, would be the part on Portland Woods that curves around there. >> The square footage >> and they're benefiting by two sides of the property >> as as we mentioned that it's it's got a larger footprint for the property itself, but the buildable area is not there because of that wetland. >> And that's the key. It's it's not the size, it's the amount of buildable area. Because you could have 10 acres, but if nine of it is underwater, you only have one acre of buildable land. And that's the and that's what determines what you can actually subdivide. >> Okay. So the appeal process is what? And are we >> drop an objection off with us? >> Yep. >> Okay. >> If you signed it up, I got you. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Thanks. >> I just want to say one thing though. >> Yep. >> You may not ever want to develop it or subdivide it >> or stay in Wiper Township at this rate. >> So down the road, somebody's going to. So, and that's why we have to, as much as it pains us too to do that, we have to look forward on this. So that's part of the reason why we come up with this this unit assessment >> and the town does see on a regular basis people taking larger parcels and subdividing them. >> All right. Thank you. >> Y thanks. >> All right. Anyone else? >> Okay. Matt Keys, 5406 Portland Avenue. Wrong subject right now, but I have to agree with Aaron. Her property does not use Portland Woods Road. Her property is on Portland Avenue. Whether there's an extra lot back there, and we're going to suffer the same things when you talk to me about Portland Avenue, Jenny Lane, because I have property in the same way. I don't think you should assess them or charge them for that because they do not utilize this road at this this time. Uh probably maybe in the future if they do sell it then maybe you have to put an assessment on there for the road but at this time right now they're not using it and we're going to have the same problem with Portland with Jenny Lane. Thank you. >> All right. Anyone else? [clears throat] Going once, going twice. All right. I need a motion to close the public portion of the meeting. I'll [clears throat] move to close the public portion of the hearing. >> I'll second. >> All in favor say I. >> I. >> All opposed. >> Are there any other questions of staff >> or the attorney? >> All right. Hearing none. Uh I need a motion on the resolution. >> I'll make a motion to approve a resolution adopting and confirming the assessments for improvement 2024-2 for the Portland Wood Street improvement project. >> I'll second. >> Motion made second. All in favor say I. >> I. >> All opposed. >> All right, moving on. We have one more. This is the Jenny Lane area. Uh, again, I need a motion to wave the reading, noting it's properly published. >> I'll move to wave the reading that it was properly published. >> I'll second. All >> in favor say I. >> I. I. >> All opposed. >> Then I need a motion to open up the public hearing. >> I'll move to open up the public hearing. >> Second. >> All in favor? Hi. >> Hi. >> All right, Larry. >> Thank you, Mr. Chair and town board. Um, the map uh you can see on your screen here is the Jenny Lane improvement project and it encompassed a a number of different streets, a bit of a large larger project um in comparison to the other two projects we discussed tonight. Um this project uh with its size was uh um built in in three phases which included phase one um work um kind of west of Portland Avenue, phase two kind of in the southern area and phase three on the north north area. No mouse. Sorry. [laughter] Um you can see 2 2.5 miles in length and in this in this project the um improvements were evaluated through the feasibility report. It was determined that a mill and overlay would be uh um the proper improvement at this time for this project. Um, we also try to address uh drainage issues um with these types of projects to promote some better drainage. In this case, a number of catch basins um were substandard and needed to be replaced. Um added some short pieces of concrete curb at those structures to promote that drainage. Um and then uh some areas of this project had curbon gutter and we did some spot replacement of that curbon gutter in those areas. Um here you can see a catch basin going in. Um work to form up that that uh curbing next to the catch basin. Um this is how it this is how it looks there on the picture on the left um with the new curbing at those catch basins. Um there's another photo of some of the concrete curb replacement and then we kind of have some final photos. Now in this uh in this project the paving for this project isn't complete as yet. uh the the phase three um area has not been paved yet and so that's uh a plan for next Tuesday for that final paving on that that final phase. Um all the other two phases have been paved. There's still some restoration work to occur. Um and then again, we're working with some property owners on specific issues um that uh we're looking to address. Um this project as a mill and overlay, it's not as uh we're not adding curb and gutter. So there's certain things that um couldn't be improved as a a part of a mill and overlay project that you could on a um reconstruction um project. Again, we would look to chip seal the pavement in about three years. Again, similar process for improvements to be able to assess for those improvements. And then these are the project costs overall 2.8 million for this project. Um, and you can see the various components that make up that 2.8 million. Again, us uh using the unit method, each lot is assessed one unit, corner lots assessed a half unit for each approved side. Um and we are looking at as bill an overlay project a $5,000 unit assessment. So this is the assessment map. Um we have a number of properties as was mentioned uh that were similar to the Portland Woods where we have multiple units. Um, two of those are off of Taylor Avenue. And then we have some properties, um, some longer, skinny properties here off Portland Avenue that have both frontage on Portland Avenue and on uh, Franklin over here. And so those in those cases, they have they're not quarter lots. And so using the assessment policy, they're assessed one unit each because of that frontage off of uh off of this the township streets. So I got some blowup maps here and we can zoom into the um these individual properties with the the GIS mapping if you would like. And so the first one I'd like to talk about here is uh 24 um 2455. It's located here. Taylor Avenue is here and then Canwell Avenue. And so you have a a property here that is uh um has their property kind of in the rear. And then you do have some wet area here, but it was found that some there's enough upland here that it should be um it could be subdividable. Um checking the asbelts, there are sewer and water stubs for that additional property, potential property. Um the next one here is 2499 and the front edge is Taylor A Avenue a Avenue here. Um again this property has two stubs so it could be um connected to those stubs. However, in this case, the uh property, the dwellings on the property are kind of center and so it would be somewhat difficult to subdivide because um you would have to take um some of the building structures down to be able to subdivide that. And then you have these other properties here um off Portland Avenue. You can see their driveways off of Portland Avenue, but then they have that frontage on the back side um on Franklin. And we can get into more details. I'm um it sounds like some property owners that are in this situation [laughter] are here tonight. Um this is assessment summary. In this case, the um 2.8 million about 2 million of that is uh overall accessessible. Um, we have 175.5 accessessible units and that with that $5,000 assessment rate computes to $877,000 for the accessible portion. Um, again, 10-year assessment, 6.3% proposed. And so this is the payment schedule for um the $5,000 for Jenny the Jenny Lane area. And you can see the principal is is $500 each year. And then that interest kind of um changes as you pay off some of those amounts. And so that first year again is to is toting um interest from for all of 2026, but then also um the time from tonight's hearing to the end of the year. This is the funding proposed for the project including 1.2 million for township funds. Um the [snorts] 877,000 for assessments, the water fund 134,000, the storm fund um including the added catch basins or replace catch basins and other drain improvements about 500,000 and then sanitary sewer improvements of 100,000. again we had we received uh better pricing um as it went through the design than uh our original estimates. So again looking at that uh um holding the assessment hearing and then adopting a resolution confirming um the assessment amounts for the Jenny Lang area. Thank you. Hey guys. >> No. >> Okay. Well, like I said, the board sees these projects almost a year in advance. So, I think we've pretty much asked all the things we need to ask. >> So, hearing none from the board, I need a motion to open up for public comment. >> I'll move to open the hearing up for public comment. >> I'll second. All >> in favor say I. I. All >> oppose. All right. Again, when you want to speak to this, you got to come to the podium. I need your name and address for the record. Hello, my name is Leanne Jansen. I live at 2657 Christine Court. Um, the project is unbelievably ridiculous. I'm sorry. Um, I thought we had a township uh noise ordinance at 7 a.m. in the morning. I can attest to October 10th I was off. I thought it was an earthquake. It's six o'clock in the morning. They're coming through. What in the world's going on? It was a grater or something they were doing. Um you guys um last week um you were cutting driveways in the rain and coming home from work. Couldn't believe it. So I called the township and left a message for who's ever on the letter there. You guys didn't call me back. It was a gentleman by the name of Byron Perkins. If he's here tonight, I don't know, but he's the only one that'll listen, it sounds like. And I spoke to him 45 minutes about how upset I am with the project the way it's going. I had a new driveway put in three years ago. Um, pretty substantial. It's asphalt driveway, but now it's cut and you guys haven't done anything about it. And I want to know when the project's going to get done. We are moving into winter. I mean, you could talk about your paving next week. You guys have made so many promises on these letters. You say the water's going to be shut off. That day it's not shut off. The next day it's shut up. I mean, let's follow through with what you guys are saying. It's very upsetting. And um you got graders sitting out there, tractors sitting out there. It's almost becoming a hazard now in the evening. It's pitch black at 6:30 at night. I mean, I don't know. You guys really destroy that area. I have to admit. It's very unacceptable. I didn't know when I went to all these meetings the whole year that you're going to be cutting every driveway down on Franklin. I mean, that's the neighborhood I walk in. Those people can't even get into their garages. You have yellow tape. I just noticed it over the weekend. Yellow tape. They can't get in their garages. Switch the roles. How would you people like that? And I want to know the just going to get done. Give us a date before the snow flies. Otherwise, it's going to be a mud bath out there. >> You just said when's the the course going down? >> Um, next Tuesday is the plan. >> That's the plan, but we've heard the plan all along. >> Yeah, it's weather permitting, of course. >> Well, now it's going to snow. So, weather. >> All right. Anyone else? My name is Lindy Beckas. I live at 5444 Portland Avenue. My driveway is Portland Avenue. It is not Franklin. I back right up to Franklin. In fact, I talked to Larry about this. I do not in the future unless I decide to. I am not subdividing it. It is not subdivided. It is one property. I bought it one property and one property only. When and if I ever decide to subdivide it, I will pay the assessments at that time, but not until, like Leanne said, I walk my dog on that property. And the only time I drive on that land is if I have to go someplace that's back there. My brother is two houses down from me. He lives at 5416 Portland Avenue. His lot is not buildable. It's not wide enough, but he got assessed. He's getting assessed also. If you really want to get technical, my land does not butt up to Franklin. It butts up to your land. The 5t from the middle of the street to my property is your land. >> So, how do I >> All of our land, >> pardon me? >> It's township land. >> Exactly. Why do I have to pay assessments on township land that I don't even have assessments uh access to except walking? And the lady that's on uh the court, Portland, my land also floods. I have it's natural drainage. It comes down and it sits right there in my yard. It takes me three months in the summertime to cut one property, one piece of land up to here. I'm not subdividing it. I don't plan on building on it. If I sell it to my kids and my kids decide to build on it, I'll pay the assessments, but not until. And my brother's the same way. How can you assess him when his lot is not even buildable, but it butts up to Franklin? Is it because there's no trees on there and it's open? What? I'm not paying taxes assessments on that land even though I have a stub there for your sew and water. It's not on my property. It's on your property. The township's property. >> Actually, it's not the township property. It's an easement which under the law the town handles and controls as trustee for the public. It is not township property. It's only an easement. >> So, I don't b butt up to that. I butt right up to the easement, but I don't from the easement to the street. >> Well, I'd have to look at your property, but looking at the map here, Franklin Avenue is simply an easement. It's a dedicated easement, and you still have the right to access that easement. access Franklin Avenue. So, >> I have the right to access it. Yes. But I don't have a right on it now. >> Well, okay. I'm not I'm just only addressing the fact that your property actually accesses and has access to Franklin Avenue. There's no strip of land between your property and Franklin Avenue that the township owns. >> Excuse me. >> Yeah. Who put the purpose of what? >> Yeah. >> Look at I'm not the engineer. I can't answer that question. Okay. >> To the engineer then. >> Yeah, that was that was done with the original sewer and water project. >> Who said to put it in there? Did you ask the owner? >> That was years That was years and years ago. I don't >> Exactly. >> Okay. Wait. We Okay, hold up. We can't We can't have this conversation without being on mic. Okay. Okay. You You'll get your turn if you want to come to mic, please. >> When you guys first started building back there. When you first started building back there, I told the town board the same dog on thing. I bought my property as one piece of property. If I cut my husband and my brothers cut those trees down in my backyard. I'm not No, you guys. You can't assess me. You can't. You can't assess people that don't have driveways up to Franklin. There's no And [clears throat] don't tell me that I can build on it because if I don't want to build on it, I won't build on it. >> That That's your totally your priority. >> Exactly. And it's my totally property. If I want to build on it or if I want to sell it, I will pay the assessments. Then that's my pro that's my >> and and you have the full uh availability to appeal this if you sent in a letter. >> Okay. But if you feel we're assessing you in Valley, you can appeal this. >> Yeah. But we're not going to solve this tonight, but you can appeal this. >> Well, then I'm talking with my about my brother, too, on 54. >> That's fine. You can appeal it. >> The same way. >> Yep. >> How can you assess him when his land is not buildable? >> Our town policy is if there's enough property to make two lots and it looks like it was because it was stubbed. >> Not on my brothers. >> It was stubbed for yours. That means it's it's dividable. So, we can't All I can say is you may never want to do it. Somebody may buy you you out and then they do it, >> right? And at that time, I will pay the assessment. >> That's why you're being assessed twice. >> Yes. >> At that time, not now. >> Well, >> 10 years down the line, if I decide to build on it, I will pay for it then. >> All right. >> Not now. >> Okay. >> We're not getting anywhere. I mean, the town has, as I said earlier, the town 15, 20 years ago, created a policy for assessment, and it was a policy that was dealt with in a public hearing over over a couple of years at least because I remember I was there at the time and there simply the present board is simply enforcing the policy, following the policy, I should say, that prior boards adopted and the town has been following. since that time, >> right? But I wasn't assessed the last time either. So why should I be assessed this time? That property. The only thing that's changed on my property is my brother and my husband cut the trees down. >> Mr. Chair, if I may, it's not necessarily a question of subdividability. It's got frontage on Franklin and per the assessment policy. Um, and it's not a corner lot, so it's not a half a unit, so it's one unit, >> right? But why why are you paying me an assessment that my lot is not going to be built on? And you're assessing me on Portland Avenue, too. When you guys go through Portland or whatever you do, Portland, you're going to assess me on Portland because my driveway is on Portland. That's not right. You're going to assess me on two streets. One I have access to and one I only have access by walking. Uh, if I may, uh, Larry, isn't Portland Avenue a county road? >> Yes, it is. >> Okay. You should know this. Counties are not allowed to assess for improvements made to county roads. >> Well, excuse me, but when you guys were fixing Portland Avenue, you tried to, you know, assess. >> We didn't fix or the county did whoever. But why? >> Well, all I can tell you is under the statute, counties don't have the authority to assess for improvements. >> Well, then who approved it? I don't can't answer that because the town didn't improve doesn't improve or repair Portland Avenue. That's a county road under county jurisdiction. They're the ones that improve it and repair it. So, you'd have to ask the county on that one. >> Okay. But I'm >> because we have no control over that. >> The last question I'm going to ask is how can you assess me when I only have walking assessed? >> You abut the road. >> About the road. You abut the road. I'm sorry. A lot of these answers is not what you want to hear. It's policy is policy. If if we start peacemealing every one of these projects to fit everybody's concerns, there would be no consistency and it would not be fair to the whole residents of the town. We'd be playing peace meal and favoritism. This is why we have ordinances and policies. Yes, sir. Come on up. >> Again, Matt Keys, 5406 Portland Avenue. Same problem. Um, you're saying it's a when I moved in and bought that property, there was no road there. All right. It's property. They put the road in and now I'm liable for the road, although I have nothing to do with it. When I got stubbed in, they assessed me for them and there was an option to pay for it now or just let it sit and pay it when you sold. So, I sat on it and it's the same thing when they put curbing in. I came in here when Dick Sand was still here and came up with the same thing. Why are you assessing me for curbing when I do not use that road? So, possibly it's a sellable lot, but nobody's interested in selling. And at the point of sales, like the assessment on the stubbing end, you pay it when you sell it. You don't pay it now because we're not using it. Shell's not using it. There's a bunch of people like she's talking her brother doesn't use it. It's just my backyard and now you're charging me for the road and [clears throat] oh yeah, we can use the road. Well, the public can use the road, too. Okay. So, I would like to settle it tonight because it's ridiculous. I don't want to file a big claim and do this because I argued with you. I sent you a letter last January whenever this whole thing started and explained the situation to you. At that point, I got nothing. I didn't make all the meetings to I'm sorry, pardon my French, but um I didn't make all the meetings to complain. I thought you'd figure it out and wash it away, but apparently you didn't. So, not very happy. There's a few people. They're stubbed in, but we're not using it. So, I'd like to sell it right now because I think it's ridiculous. I should think you should dismiss those houses and Aaron's house, too. So, what do you think? Can we do it tonight or do we got to make a big deal out of it? what I just said. If we peacemail every one of these, we would be here till five years from now looking at every individual property. When you hit the when you hit no that we would set a precedence that would follow us and the next board forever, we can't just peacemail and cherrypick certain properties that don't fit your requirements, but they hit our ordinances. >> They're just backyards. >> They're not lots. >> They are today, but tomorrow they could be something else. But that's but again was saying >> you have to have a policy and we have to be follow policy. We are following the policy. >> I don't agree with you guys a bit. I argued with putting the road in. You put the road in. I argued about stubbing in. You did it. That was my property back there. It was all swamp land. And that's fine. You put the road in. Okay. But now you're charging me for something that I didn't want in the first place. Well, and that's that's why we have this process that you can appeal it and state your case to see if that if we are technically if we are technically breaking the law. >> A little piece of paper you sent me in the mail. I appeal it that way. >> No, no, no. My time go I don't want to make sure that people don't make a mistake here. First thing, first step is you got >> the assessment adopted. Okay, you have to do that. That's statutory. Next step is if the assessment's adopted, you then have to file an appeal with and the per the process is this. You first serve the township the county that's the city the town clerk with the with the appeal. You then have I think it's 10 days but you'll have probably hire an attorney and make sure on this. You then have period of time which you have to file that appeal with district court. Now you can do this yourselves if you want. You can do it but as we say prosay but that's the process under the statute and that's strictly followed. So I want to make sure everyone understands this is not a rule we're making up. This is strictly out of the statute and it has to be followed according to the statute. Has to be followed direct has to be followed strictly. So make sure you follow the time frame. >> Is that that little piece of paper you sent me the appeal in the mail? >> No. what you did tonight when you signed up on the sheet that was distributed. You are stating your >> under the statute when we send the notice out for the appeal or I'm sorry send out the nose off for the assessment. >> We also have to include in that no in that notice your appeals rights and how the process works. That's why I said no that's not the appeal. The actual appeal is the objection you file tonight. That's the start. That's step one. And step two is you have to file an you have to serve the town with an appeal and then you have to file that appeal with district court and it's all has to be done within 30 days. >> So you took step one tonight when you signed up on our sheet. >> All right. Right. That's step one. >> Yep. >> So >> no cure for this right now is what you're saying, right? >> No, we would be going against our own town policy. Common sense doesn't fit in. >> Well, common sense created these policies. >> I've been there. >> I wasn't there when they were created >> longer than you have and things have changed and now you're charged me with some >> frustration. Say that. >> Shelton Bentley and I uh I live at 5436 Portland Avenue. Now, I've been there for almost 47 years. And you got quite a few of us that they're in their 70s and they're retired and on fixed incomes and uh if you look at the back of my property, I got a big duck pond in the back. So, you can't build on that. And it's all woods and uh I can remember that I didn't want the road put in. I didn't want the devil, but when they put all the water and stuff, I think it's just kind of a sad situation for some of us here because we're in a we're in a bad situation with what's going on. I think it is. It's I don't think it's right, but >> I just like to voice my opinion on it. Okay. >> Right. Thanks. >> Hi, my name is Jeremy Nelson. I [clears throat] live at 2542 uh Taylor Avenue. Chad, I got a few questions for you. Say since you're since you work for us, right? >> I'm the town attorney. That's right. Yes, you are. Okay. Just as much as they represent you, you represent us, right? >> Yeah, I represent the town. Yeah. Go ahead. I mean, I understand I obviously can't represent you against the town and in this >> work for a firm or are you an independent lawyer? >> I'm I'm work for a firm. >> Okay. So, there's other people at the firm that potentially could help these people here tonight. Represent them since since real quick. Let me finish my thought. Okay. Sure. I apologize. >> Right. >> These people, you're representing these people, right? >> I rep Okay. Okay. Go ahead. Finish. Finish. >> Finish. Finish a thought. You're representing these people, right? These people out here need to be represented because the over amount of work you keep talking about all these papers these people got to file. Most of them won't be able to file these papers. So, Chad, I really challenge you to help these people file these papers. >> What was your thought on that? Okay. And real quick for you, Ed. When you say you can't change these policies, you can change these P policies. Go back. Go back to the board. All you guys go back and these these fine people that are live in these longer lots to say what you're saying to them is wrong. You can make it right. Go back. And when you say peacemaking, you're not peacemaking. >> Even making even if we were to do that, it can't go retro. It wouldn't matter. We could fix it next month, but you can't go back. >> You can't go back. Okay. So, you can't go back >> and you can move forward with these policies in time. You can move forward with them. >> And you know what? And that that's very possible. And if if you want to petition our planning commission to to come with a with an idea and a plan, Yes. >> we'd be more than happy to listen to it. >> Okay. So, I'm just saying we got we got to look past this because some of these people are angry and they're paying a lot of money in property taxes. We pay our state taxes, our federal taxes, and our property taxes to the towns. And we're still being assessed $5,000, $10,000, $18,000 on roads. somewhere we're overspending money at at the government level and what you guys are saying we can't do our policies. We do got to do our due diligence. We go we got to go back into our policies and the constitution assessments and taxations were not on the constitution when you brought up that earlier. Where where was your constitution? >> Actually actually no the process that the town has to follow and any municipality has to follow in in assessments there are constitutional protections. For example, remember when I was talking about earlier the fact that you can't assess more than the benefit that is constitutional because it's a anything over and above the benefit is a taking >> and taking under the constitution is not is forbidden or Chad you you your firm should represent these people out here at least give them legal advice on their documentation that they have to file and help them along with it because none of them can afford most of them can't afford to get a lawyer to challenge your township. >> Okay, here's the problem with that. I represent the township and in the case of an assessment appeal, I'll be representing the township. I can't represent the township and represent the owner at the same time. That's a conflict of interest. That's why that's why I've been going through the pro the appeal process tonight telling you what you have to do so you're clear. But I can prepare the appeal. I can't do that. It's tough though because we pay your salary. >> You Okay. >> And you can't deny that. We do. >> Okay. >> That's all I got to say. I don't need to respond. That's we pay your salary. >> I got to respond to this because we our town attorney is for the township. He can't personally respond and go to every individual and be their attorney. That's it's impossible. >> I know it is. >> Well, it's also a conflict of interest. >> You have an attorney and these folks don't. that attorney is not just it's not us. This is the township. This board's going to come and go. He is the attorney for the township. >> I've I've said enough. >> Well, let's keep one thing in mind. Sure, I represent the township, but keep in mind any all the money that's been spent on this road that's not assessed. It gets paid by every other citizen of the township. I represent them just as well as I represent the people in this room here. And this is why we're spending some a lot of our funds across the board. So our taxable levy does not go up. Those those funds are applied to that. So everybody in the township is sharing an advantage of those funds. And look, we know assessments are expensive. When I first started on the board, they were two, three grand, but the cost of things to of of construction and everything has just gone up. You know that. And to blame us for all the other taxes, you talk to your state reps. We're the bottom of the pile. We're the bottom of the totem pole. Everything gets dropped on us. We don't have township doesn't have funding like the cities do around us. We don't we don't get a couple million a year for helping all these roads. We have to literally assess to make our roads safe for you guys. And and that's where we're sitting. And like again too, if if you're that passionate about it, we always have openings on the planning commission. you can you can sit on that board and you can have your input. We listen to these boards, utilities commissions, park boards, all of them. We we implore you to come and get on those boards because we use these folks as uh information for us to make our decisions. So, and like I said, we are at the bottom. We're at the bottom of the poll and we a lot of these funds that we incur are uh non-fundable. Uh Met Council is one of them. They drop all this stuff on us. It costs money, but we we don't get extra money for that. We have to figure out how to pay for them. Roads are no different. And we struggle with these too, just like everybody else. We all live in the township. We all get assessments. This this a tough lump to to swallow, but we can't have roads falling apart either. It's a public safety thing. >> That's my spiel. All right. Anyone else? >> Chris Wallally, 25. >> Sorry, what was it? Chris Walliki, 2581 Taylor Avenue. Great job, Jeremy. Um, so [snorts] I live on Taylor. Uh, I it I've been there for I don't know 20ome years, I think, at this point. Um, [clears throat] do you know the last time do you have a date of the last time that they redid the road? >> Um, I don't recall off hand. was in the feasibility report. >> I don't feel 2018. Okay. Was there a warranty that comes with the roads? >> There's a there's a warranty with uh these improvements. >> We're going to we're going to get to that one. But in 2018, was there a warranty on that road? >> I I don't know if that's the correct date, but there would have been a one-year warranty. >> I think that would probably been a seal code. >> Well, >> hold on. Why is it a one-year warranty? Do you >> So, do you pay more? So, if you pay So, like say like current time right now, >> if you guys milled the road down to an appropriate depth, would that give you more of a warranty? >> I don't know what you mean. >> Well, was there recommendations made by the crew that came out and did the work? Did anybody make recommendations for the road to be done differently, but you guys chose to go a different direction? >> We we were relying on the the soil the soil boring and the cing of the pavement to get a pavement recommendation. >> Okay. So, they recommended what it should what they did the work that they did. Is that what they recommended? There was no difference between what they recommended. >> Who was they? I'm I'm confused. >> Was it What was the name of the um Broser or something? Was the Was it Drestle? >> The contract? >> Yeah. Was Did Dressel recommend that we do a different depth or a different um construction of the road? >> Not that I'm aware of. >> Not that you're aware of. Larry, isn't there just regular specifications on how roads are constructed? >> Yeah, in this case it's a mill and overlay. So, we we get um we hire a geotechnical engineer to do a cing of the pavement and a boring beneath the road to see what materials are underneath the road to um come up with a recommendation for the improvement. >> And then then it's out the bidding process. Then then you uh prepare plans for that recommend recommended improvement >> and get bids on those. >> How long would you expect this road to last now? >> Um we'll like to get uh 15 20 years out of this improvement. >> Why didn't we get 15 or 20 years out of the last improvement? >> I don't know that we haven't I don't know what improvement you're talking about in 2018. I I started working on the township at 2018. And I know we didn't do a street project here. >> Okay. Well, we'll go back and do some digging, I guess, to verify that. Um, my my concern Well, let me back up a second. So, the project Did you Was there a number that was 3.4 million, but it was settled at 2.9? Is that what it was? >> Um, 3.5 was the original estimate. >> Okay. So, what's the difference between the 3.5 and the 2.8 right now? >> That'd be about $700,000, >> right? But how did you guys save $700,000? >> Um, so when we put these original project estimates together, we like to aim higher. We don't know all we don't know everything at that point because we haven't designed it yet. So, we put um what we think are inflationary factors that we might see on a project. >> Sure. and we um we overestimate the the quantities to make sure we're covering everything that could happen with these types of projects. And so we estimate high in the hopes we get a better bid. And the other ca in the other other thing here is we got a a lot of biders and it was a competitive bidding process and we got um a lower bid amount. >> So did Dresser make any other recommendations for the road? >> Not that I'm aware of. It would be out of their It would be out of their contract. >> We do it differently. What I heard was that the road wasn't milled down appropriately. >> Okay. Well, we're not going to go with hearsay. All I'm saying is >> that's what they told me. >> When they when we go out for bids, they have a scope of work that they have to comply to. >> Well, but either way, the warranty or the road you you guys hope for the road to last 15 or 20 years. I know that the road has been done prior to the last 15 or 20 years. So it was a mill overlay in 1998. >> Last overlay was 98. >> Yep. >> 71 was constructed. Everybody's in 90. >> I was 199 >> 99. >> I was there in 2003 and I know that the road has been done since then. >> It was a seal coat. >> Seal coat is totally different. >> Yeah. It's not a structural. It's a surface treatment. >> Well, let's let's move on. What else you got? Because obviously we're not going to go with hearsay because we just showed you that it was just a field. >> How do I so I can get written statements from them and then what? Hire an attorney. >> Written statements from what? >> From dresser. Is that who it is? Dress. >> Dress. >> Written statement saying what? I'm I'm still confused. >> You that allegedly allegedly you guys kind [clears throat] of um cut back on the cost by not going down as far as what was recommended by them. They don't recommend anything to us. >> They didn't. So you guys developed all the plan and they just did it. >> Correct. >> Yeah. They bid according to what the specifications are. They bid. >> They don't tell us. We tell them this is what we want and then they that's how they the contract gets written. >> And we doesn't mean the public works department. We means the consulting engineers retained by the town under contract to make those recommendations to the town. >> Okay. Great. That's it. >> All right. Thank you. Anyone else? >> Hi, I'm Patrice Posini Steedman, 2499 Taylor Avenue. I have already submitted my formal objection to Pat Kristofferson, dated October 15th. Um, on behalf of our neighbors, we have um a lot of project tie up loose ends. Who do we submit our concerns to? Who's the project inspector? I mean, I just have six that we've come up with, and there's probably more on the other end that I'm not aware of, but who would be the name or the address or phone number? >> If you want to write me an email with >> Okay. I can get pass those along to the project inspector. >> Okay. >> And they can probably and with your contact information, we can have them reach out to you. >> Okay. And thank you for your time. We all do appreciate this. >> Thanks, Patrice. >> Thanks, Patrice. [clears throat] >> Really quick related question. Uh Karen Bundy, I live at 5400 Franklin Avenue. Who do we contact? And Larry, is it you around um invisible fencing, which is a wire under the ground for pet containment? Um there's a big chunk of mine that was torn out. Who do we contact about getting that repaired? >> Again, you can come to me and I can >> Do you >> I can forward that on to the project >> because I think it has to be done by the invisible fence people because they can show you exactly where it was broken. Okay. Thank you. >> Yeah. And sometimes that kind of misses the radar because when you call for um locates, that's one of the things they tend to miss, >> right? Yeah. Because it was flagged, >> right? >> But there was no way they couldn't. >> Right. Any else? >> Rick Kang, 5424 Jefferson Court. This is related to the also part of the uh Taylor Road project because I was a part of that. Now, as far as that gentleman with the hat goes, I'm sorry I forgot your name. Um, I have a mobility scooter and I ride around a lot, especially after the rain just to see what's going on with the with the construction. I'm just curious pertaining to his question that I don't believe was answered. It's projected to be approximately 15 years for the roads. Correct. Now, let's say if it wasn't to the spec and let's just say that cuz there's a lot of puddles out there. There's there's flaws, major flaws. I've spoken to TKDA um Byron. I spoke I spoken to several other contractors that was subbed. They came out and tore up our sewage on the street or the drain twice because that contractor that did that said that they didn't have any numbers to go off. We're not going to go with the he said she said like you said. But the question now is if it only lasts for 5 to seven years at most, are we going to get reassessed for it? And the other thing also is who is actually checking the depth so that it can actually withstand whatever um weather or load so that it can last the 15 to 20 years as expected. you know, not just this seal coating or or whatever it may be as far as maintenance go, but we do not want to get assessed. A lot of people here and from other meetings are pretty upset because it seems like this project has not gone very well. So now the question is if the road needs to be redone again in 5 to seven years as again I spoke to the consultants the TKDA people. Are we going to get reassessed for that? Even though it's not our fault. I don't believe we're going to replace a road in seven years. I don't think that's ever happened in the township. So I but I don't want to speculate on what what's going to happen down the road. But we I can do as a builder for 50 years, Beth has been in the business, we you can never ever assume what's under the ground. You don't know. Tomorrow a spring might pop and run under the road and the road's going to drop. We'll have to fix it. That things happen, but all we know is from experience, from our engineers, when we do a road, we have a little chart on how long the road should last till the next maintenance is going to occur. And if we don't do these uh intermediate mill and overlays, the road is going to depreciate a lot quicker and then it's going to be a complete road redo, which means it costs more, >> right? So, but in order to give a a warranty of what's under the ground, no one's going to be able to do that. Well, you know, it's it's just very sad uh that for me to ride around and see all these puddles that I have to avoid with a mobility scooter. And you know, um again, I'm not going to go into specific details of all the flaws that has happened that I've I've witnessed myself and some of my neighbors. But at the same time, um communication is key. Now, from what I hear from a lot of the people at the meetings, they've reached out to the engineers or the township or whatever, and there seems to be a lack of, if any, and that includes myself. I've reached out to the engineers several times. Um, I spoke to Scott, which is the gentleman that drives around, um, that gave me the business card for the township engineers, and I've reached out and I left message, and it wasn't you, by the way, Larry. Um, I left messages for him. Never got anything. Um, I spoke to Byron as recommended because he was there. Byron stopped by my house several times, but the only thing he can give me back as far as an answer goes is I've done my best. I forward it to my supervisor. I brought it up to the township. You have to speak to them. So, there seems to be a lot of fingerpointing going on. >> Larry, you want to you want to explain the process with the field engineer? >> Yeah. So, um, your first line of communication is Byron, the the project inspector, and then if there are issues, they they bring it up to, uh, the construction engineer for the project. So, I apologize if they didn't get back to you. I >> Yeah, it's it's been a while. And the the problem is Byron's at the point where, and I'm going to use his term, he's just the escapegoat because he has no real answers anymore. and he's just as frustrated as we are. I have pictures. I have evidence. He even came out when it um after it rained. And I have pictures of it. I'm not going going to talk about my own personal problems. >> Oh, wait a minute. No, that's that's the road's not completely paved though. Correct. >> We're done at Jefferson Court. >> And there's it's still puddling on the road after it's done. >> We don't have a puddle. We have a lake. >> We have pictures of it. I drove through today. I did see some areas off on the sides. >> By the way, on the road, I have my attorney over here with me tonight >> just to let you know how serious and upset I am because I am concerned for my safety. It will freeze over that big old puddle. >> All right, I I got to stop you right now. Uh Chad, do we still proceed with this if he's uh got council present? >> You have? Yeah, sure. I mean, it's a public meeting. >> Okay. I I just don't want uh something said that can be used against us. So, I want to be very careful now because if you >> Yeah, we're not going to since you've got council here, we're not going to really respond to you. >> Okay. That's fine. But, >> but understand one thing. You have every right. You're a citizen. You have a right to say what you say. Just that we can't respond because of that. Okay. >> Sure. >> All right. And I'm also very careful as to what I say myself and that's why I'm very vague instead of going into specifics. >> Have you sent any emails? >> What is it? >> Have you sent any emails to any to Larry? >> No, because because Byron kept on asking me to call them so they could come out and see it. >> Can I suggest that you do send Larry? You know, it would be a courtesy if you could. Okay. So, we could, you know, I mean, we do care. I mean, I I honestly care that you guys are unhappy, but give us a chance to fix it. So, please put it in writing so it's there. You know, you've sent it. Larry will look at it, but we do care. >> Okay. So, now going back to the subject of knock on wood if things happen. We don't have we have a one-year warranty. This assessment is already huge for a lot of people. And now from the from the work and experience that we seen, I mean, fire departments had to be dispatched because of errors. The confidence level is to a minimal with their work. And I'm only specifically talking about Dress or whoever their contractors are because there's no reason why the fire department, ambulance, and the police department needs to be dispatched to a construction zone unless something major happened like hitting a gas line. That's all I got. All right. Anyone else? Patricia Duprey, uh 2569 Taylor Avenue. And um I just wanted to comment on us to um our driveway. It's all messed up at the bottom. And [clears throat] um we've talked to several people about it, too. And nothing has ever been done about it. So the same as what he's saying that we just have problems with it. And um Byron is the one that Yeah, he's been out two or three times. He's marked it. It needs to go needs to be cut in like 18 inches from the road or whatever. He has it marked there or whatever. Um a few times. No one's ever come and this summer they had to cut into our driveway to redo the gas line, which is fine. We're okay with that. But this summer, we could have had our driveway resealed, everything to have it done. But we're waiting on all that cuz now we have just a big square piece of tar in the middle of our road driveway where everything is cut out. >> So it's just like it's just it doesn't get done. And we have a lip this big on the end. >> What was your address? >> 2569 Taylor Avenue. >> Yeah, I'm aware of it. I actually visited the driveway and Byron was going to follow up to make sure it was addressed. >> I'm not sure where it's at, but I was I had been there with Byron. >> Okay. >> Byron says >> because it's been like three weeks again now. >> No, I I get it. >> And it's like the the whole thing is is like our where our driveway is where the dirt even where they put the new stuff in, all that stuff comes and it's like it's like that thick at the end of our driveway. So, it used to be so that it went on the road, but now it's like right in our driveway. >> There's a ledge. Yep. >> So, that >> Thank you. >> Thank you, >> Derek Shaws, 2563 Taylor Avenue. Um, I guess I'm here tonight is to ask you to re-evaluate the assessment fee of $5,000. I've looked at several other cities nearby. um on what they charge and then I have also spoken to um assessors, real estate agents and some lawyers on what u market values are going for. Um just for example, um White Bear Lake did one um they charge $1,600 for a mill and overlay for an 80 foot lot. That's what most of us kind of have. Um Hugo was $2,100 for a millon overlay for their 24 25 projects. Um St. Paul was the highest one I saw was at 21 or I'm sorry 2961. Um, Lo Lakes, they did a street project and they had zero assessments. Um, Stillwater Township also did a project in 2024 for an overlay project that was at $0. Also, um I looked on the feasibility report and the estimated mill and overlay cost was going to be at um 2,725,690. The awarded bid came in at $1,978,000. That's a difference of $746,888. Um, so either someone when they calculated the estimate was way off or we're not seeing any savings as a homeowner based on the new assessment rate. So >> when we get a a a feasibility study and a cost from the engineers, it's it's purposely like Larry said trying to get into contingencies if it goes high. We can only set the assessment for a certain amount. We can't go higher. >> You can go lower. >> That's true. But the problem is if the bids come in way higher then we can't assess for more. So the number we're using is only a guidance and when we get a good uh bid ratio 10 12 guys getting it that does affect the cost of the project but it doesn't affect the 20% minimum what we have to assess. So the $746,000 doesn't provide any assessment savings to >> Well, it does in the long run of everybody in the township because that cost is is spread out across the township, not just assessments for the project. So it's still a savings to the town. It's just not to an individual property owner. >> And and when you keep when you quote everybody around us, we don't get the kind of funds everybody around us gets. It's And I don't know when these were done, but every year our our road projects are jumping by 10 15%. >> Five years ago, >> that's about what it had run up. >> Yep. So, >> but I don't want to sit here and speak for any other community. We tried to do our best with the town. >> Everybody else is getting charged compared to Wiper Township. Um, so [clears throat] that's why I'm asking we re-evaluate what the assessment rate is because you're being charged a lot less and you're not passing any savings on to the residents as the under assessments. Um, the construction process has not gotten well out there. There's a lot of errors. Um me personally on our property, I've sent um a few emails to Larry. Have not received any responses. I spoke to him at the meetings and he said he'd reach out. Uh my concern is runoff coming down Taylor Avenue. It comes into our yard and we have large ponding during any rainstorm in our front yard. and nobody came out to address to see if if the ground could be adjusted a little bit or the pitch. Um if there's any curbing that can be put in there during the process. Um so it was just real frustrating as a homeowner to reach out several times or resolution or even a contact. Um when they did the project of the um actual lane of the asphalt um I had a half inch lip from my driveway onto the road. I sent an email that afternoon and I received a responses and patching's been done. We'll come out and look at it afterwards. I had talked to the crew that was on site and asked if they could use their roller to try and pack that down. And they said because I have a concrete driveway they would not do that. And the next day they were out there with a torch with a roller trying to roll. So not again somebody's not talking to somebody. Um at least I did receive a response that they would look at it. I don't think there was nobody contacted me afterwards to come out there and look at it. Um I did flag Byron down one day. He stopped by and checked on it and he says I don't think it's right. So, he was going to bring it up to the appropriate person, but I'm concerned about the runoff and not receiving any feedback on that. Um, we do have bird baths as um they were talking all over, especially on 8th Street. Um, some of them are duck ponds. I mean, they're pretty substantial. Figured, you know, you'd see some better grading and things like [clears throat] that when they were doing this. Um the soil that they put down on the restoration project um there was glass in it. So my yard now has little shards of glass and uh they ran the street sweeper through and there's still glass on Taylor Avenue and a street. So just as a heads up to the landscaping crew, make sure that they're getting quality black dirt for their next restoration projects across the road. Um, we kind of talked about um benefit tonight and I know you guys do a large scale assessment of everybody's properties. I don't feel um that we're receiving a $5,000 benefit on the Milan overlay. Um Taylor Avenue has no curb or gutter and it's only a 20 foot wide road. So, I know you try and equalize it, but I don't feel that we're getting our full $5,000 benefit out of that. So, I talked to an assessor and he said likely that is the case. Um, to hire him was over $700 um minimum to come out and do an appraisal on my property. Um, I spoke to a lawyer. They charged $380 an hour. They figured minimum of 10 hours to plead my case at the appeals court. So I'm at $4,000 plus just to appeal a process. So really doesn't justify that means there. So, that's why I'm here tonight is just to kind of say I think we need to reook at what the appraisal fee is or the assessment fee is and then um just make sure that it's fair and just that you guys are realizing almost a million dollar in savings it sounds like between some of the different areas on the projects and the assessments are being adjusted accordingly. Thank you. >> All right. Anyone else? >> I'll repeat again. My name is Leanne Jansen. I live at 2657 Christine Court. Um, two things I heard from the very beginning, rumor. I don't know if it's true or not, but you fired the first group of um contractors. Is that true? >> I don't know what you're talking about. Again, you know, and rumors were not in that business. >> I just want to make sure. And then secondly, we're talking about this $5,000. And I mean, I did get my letter in the mail like everybody else did. And tomorrow, um, is the first day that you can pay through November 21st. >> Well, now you want us to pay for something that isn't even completed yet. >> Correct. I mean, normally, >> well, then but then you can wait. You can wait till then >> if you want to pay it. >> Well, and >> the project will be substantially done. Uh just so we're clear and Tom can clarify this. I think what you're talking about, Leanne, is the fact that you can pay for a certain period of time and avoid interest completely. >> You have one month from starting tomorrow to November 21st, >> right? To pay for without without securing any issues going on right now. >> Oh, >> and you want our money and it's like, wait a minute, the project isn't even done and we don't even know if it's going to be done yet. >> So, you want my $5,000? And it's kind of like, really? Merry Christmas. That's all I got to say. >> Yeah, if I can respond to that one. Yeah, you by law you have 30 days to pay off the assessment without any interest. Uh that would start tomorrow. Then after that, uh by law, we have to send anything that is unpaid to Ramsey County to put onto the taxes. I believe it's by November 15th. Now, they keep changing the dates on us. Um, so that's why there's that period because it's the only way we can do it. >> Can you get the project done, please? I got >> All right. Anyone else? >> Yeah. Again, Matt Keys would like to readress. Yeah. >> Okay. I'm only going to give you a couple minutes because we're starting to get redundant here. >> Make it quick. Just got to agree with that gentleman over there. The project on Taylor Avenue was undercut. You got it for less. You're saying you're taking the extra money. You're still charging them. You're going to take it and spread it out to the township, which is great. But in essence, he's getting taxed. I'm getting taxed more than the other guy on on the street because I'm paying more taxes with my assessment and helping you out with that. you're giving the rest of the money instead of cutting their bills and reassessing it. You're spreading it out through the rest of the community, which is great. It would be nice to do, but it's my money. Uh, I'll leave it at that. >> Keep in mind that every project in the future, you will also benefit from as a citizen of the township from those reduced costs. Okay? So, you got you're you're getting that point, right? >> Anyone else? Okay. >> Lisa Love, 2649 Richard Drive. >> The benefit of the project. Uh really what is the benefit? A lot of the sewer lifts were unnecessary. The mill and overlay some areas weren't necessary. And as the inception of the project and the determination that the White Bear Beach Estates area and then the other people within that community needed new overlays and the driveways cut and all this other happy hoopla. when in fact the crews did their job and the scope of the work as they were told the scope of the work was to lift look and see if there was a rusty bolt that needed to be replaced that was the case. Some of them they were apparently already notified because they'd already been dealt with maybe three years ago. So the redundancy of the redundancy is I think really the underlying concern of a lot of people and how the planning was established and the notification and even the notification for this project uh kind of was a short-lived thing like oh by the way and then you get more information to follow and then we're responding now at the 11th hour to a project that yeah it it's been going along not completed. The crews out there they've been informative if we have a chance to speak with them and a lot of them the crews you get a lot of actual valid information truth as to what they're getting paid to do and why they're doing it. And yes, they got the contract and so be it. But why was there a contract that was even being bid out on half of this stuff? Who made those determinations that we're just going to start redoing all these streets that still had some life in them and a lot of areas that didn't need anything. >> I I I think we explained that all roads are graded. They're graded from five to zero. When they hit below two, they come up for a redo. And some roads may be 1.8, some might be 2.1 in the same area. We're not going to just do the roads that are 1.8. That it's not even feasibly possible to do spot on each road. So when an area comes up in that time range, in that grading, the whole area gets done. It it >> encompassing the whole area as you're saying versus maybe one street that's that substantially is affected with drainage issues. But we we do borings on every street when we go into these projects. >> Why? >> So we know what it's under the road so we know it's the length. >> Step on them and look at them. >> No. >> And what you're really saying and I get you. >> I could look at paint on a car but I don't know if there's rust under it. >> Hey, you know what? What you're really saying and I heard what you said. It's this Rice Creek uh watershed and yes underground. We're backed into sloohs and duck ponds and the drainage issues and what's sinking and why is it sinking? And that's what you're boring the roads for to find out well well yeah uh 37 years ago when most of these developments were being put in place with brand new roads and the sewers and the water and the lift stations are what's sinking and that's what drives this whole project. Let's just get clear on that. And that being said, I don't like the fact that I'm being assessed unnecessarily. And I had no drainage issues and no road issues. And I think a lot of people are just feeling that way. >> Anyone else? All right. Hearing none, I'm going to uh ask for a motion to close the public comment portion. >> Did you say yes? >> Yes. So moved. >> Second. >> All in favor say I. >> I. >> All right. Uh Larry, you you obviously document all the concerns through this meeting and then you and the on-site follow up on that and that's part of your punch list. So, we make sure that >> if if people want to send me emails of specific issues, um I'll forward it on to the construction team to get addressed >> because like I said, obviously we're closing in, but these jobs we try to tie them up by the end of the year. Some of the restoration might go till next year. Again, we don't pay the contractor till those things are done and residents are satisfied. And that's the best we can do with that. weather permitting, it could get all get done this fall. If the weather turns south, some of it might have to wait till next year. So, we just ask for a little patience. I I'll apologize if if some of this stuff went rough. Uh we do our best. We try to keep everybody informed what's going on. It's on the website. Uh TKDA tries to get their guys out there and and notify people. And sometimes we're at the mercy of the contractor. If he doesn't relay to us what's happening, we can't relay to you. So, if all of a sudden they change a date and don't get to us right away, that's out of our control. And granted, it doesn't look good because a lot of these guys want to get our work in the future. And from what I'm hearing, some of these guys will never work in the township again. So, but we appreciate your patience and we do uh take this seriously. It's it's not going in one ear and out the other. We're we're residents here, so we understand. All right, that's my spiel. Anything else, Steve? No, I'd like to echo the same thing. You know, we are all residents and we all hear this and we're all facing the same thing at some point. Uh some have been assessed, others are very close to heading in that uh process and and the disappointing part is the communication piece and and you know that that doesn't go unnoticed. Uh that's a conversation that we have with our consulting engineering firm and with his project team. he would I assume follow up on that uh also but it's all hearsay at this point because I wasn't part of it nor was anybody sitting here nor was Larry for the most part but your your points are well taken um you may not agree with our position but it is the policy that we're following so >> all right uh hearing that I need a motion on the resolution >> I'll make a motion to uh approve a resolution ution adopting and confirming the assessments for improvements of 20 24-4 for the Jenny Lane area street improvement project. >> I'll second. >> All right. Motion's made and seconded. All in favor say I. >> I. All opposed. >> All right. Thanks, folks. All right. We got to move on. Um our last item is uh cabin 61. Is this something Chad you brought? >> Yeah. Um, >> if you don't mind, >> are we have to ask you to to >> We still have a meeting to continue. >> Um, the meeting is still going on. No, no, we >> Yes. Yes. >> Look at it. Please. No, you're right. I understand. No, it has. There's folks There's a statuto procedure where >> think we're don't get frustrated too. >> No, we understand >> cuz actually I got the same assessment myself in my city. Okay. So, I know the feeling. >> I know the feeling. Thank you. >> I know the feeling. Okay. As >> Send us notes, though. When you're when you're upset, >> we do like to hear from residents. >> It's me, too. Okay. >> You know, nothing happens in a vacuum. We really >> We [clears throat] really do. We live here somewhere else. Okay. I understand. >> Trust me, I don't love it. You know, I didn't love my last position. >> I know. >> I know better. >> No problem. >> Yeah. >> Says it all, doesn't it? >> Okay. >> Oh, yeah. All right. Can we continue? >> Thank you. >> Okay. And I've had a dog fence. It's already past my bedtime, >> Mr. Chair. Okay. Last week, cabin the owners of cabin 61 came to uh Dale. >> Hang on a minute. I I can't hear. >> You can shut your cabin 61. >> Hang on. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I Yes. >> Okay. Start over. >> Okay. Um, the sewer that serves Cabin 61 actually runs through township property, a portion of it, a small portion, and there apparently is no easement we know of that allows for the sewer to exist. So, two things. They need to repair their sewer, but they can't enters township property without permission. So, what I'm recommending to the board that you grant me the the authority to draft up a license which gives them how long you going to need. >> Well, okay. Let's give you a couple of days just in case. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. So, a license allowing them to access town property for approximately two days. You give us the time, give Dale the time frame, we'll draw it up. And so, that that way they're they're not trespassing on town property. They actually have the right to be there. It's a license that allowed them to repair their sewer over this period of time. >> Which side of the road is it on? >> Can you you want to come up to the mic so we get you on? Just your name and address first. under your property under the rail into the yard. Now, of course, That's all gravity fed. >> Do you know about this, Dale? >> I learned last Thursday from [laughter] in the afternoon. >> And I want to commend you, Dale. Thanks for I mean driving crazy challenges. Well, here's the problem. I got a trial starting tomorrow at 9:00. Before I go to the trial, I'll drop a license, have it over there. But, see, here's the deal. I can't sign it on behalf of the township. Neither can Dale. The town board has to approve it because they only there only the town board has authority to grant that license. That's why we're doing it tonight. >> But isn't there a law? >> Uh no. Uh well, there is a law. It's called adverse possession. However, adverse possession does not apply to municipalities. That's been the law since for last century. Actually, statutory. >> Oh, and that's why that's why we're doing the license. So, you can do it. >> Like I said, I'll before I go to the trial tomorrow, I'll d I'll make the I'll draft the license up and someone's going to have to prove it because I'm not going to be there. But we'll get it out and as as long as the board as long as the board authorizes the city the town clerk at and the town chair Ed to sign it, we can get it ready. And I presume that even if it's not signed, you can still go ahead and do it. Okay. But no, we we understand your problem and we're doing it, but we got to do it this way. What do you need? >> Nothing really. Well, actually, we do need something from you. As part of it, as part of the license, there will be an exhibit showing where the light where the sewer line runs. You're going to have to give us that exhibit, right, Dale? >> Yeah. And drop a legal description for the easement. >> Yeah. >> I don't have a legal description, but I have an aerial view that >> Well, that I don't know. >> That'll work for the license, but eventually >> longm I'll do it. get it surveyed and we'll do it. >> Yeah. Right. Right. Right. >> The license only going to allow you to to repair it. >> You're theoretically you're still trespassing on the on township property. I don't think the town is going to force you to get an injunction forcing you to tear your sewer out at the moment. But yeah, we'll have to follow it up with an easement. But an easement will require a survey showing exactly where it is. Okay. >> Did you camera that or not? >> We did. We actually was plugged. [clears throat] >> Okay. probably. >> What size pipe is it? >> Doesn't take much to plug a 4 inch pipe. >> Yeah. >> All right. So, Chad, what you need out of us is a a motion to authorize Patris Patrick Kristofferson and Edward to [clears throat] uh and I'm sorry, it's late. Edwin to >> [laughter] >> uh to to execute a license allowing cabin 61. By the way, you have to get us the correct corporate name, too. >> Well, do me a favor. Just I'll give you a card. Send me a send me an email because, you know, I I can't remember all this stuff >> and uh and we'll get and so the license will simply allow you give you a week just be safe to go in enter to enter enter township property for the purpose of repairing your sewer. Then after that, we'll have to follow up with a permanent easement. >> I'll make that motion. >> I'll second it. >> All right. Motion's made in a second. All in favor? >> I have. [laughter] >> That's nice. >> Yeah, we're batting about two. >> Yeah, sure. I think I have an extra one with me. >> All right, that concludes our agenda. Open time. Now, now you can >> so patient >> shoot on us again. [laughter] Name and address, please. >> Here, I'm just going to write it out for you. >> Well, I do have business cards. I just must have run out of them. >> We don't have any sewer. We don't have any water. Are there any updates? Anything that are going on? We haven't heard anything. >> Yeah. that and I kind of came in here tonight just to u see how things are going. I'm a little surprised to be honest. Anyway, here we go. You have anything for silver? >> Not at the moment. Um we uh we have to get back to that and and uh um take that next step and and look at systems, septic systems, wells. >> Chad Lemons at Kellylemons.com. I thought you were I thought we had sent out some folks to to in >> Everything's lower case. It's There's no hyphens or dots between names. Everything's lower case. >> No, no, no. That's That's actually meant to be lemons. >> Yeah, sure. No problem. >> We got some water saturation. I put in some landscaping to kind of control some of the water as well. I think this project's not going to take much time in I think this project's going to need a little extra help. I think the DNR and the wershed be involved with it as well because that water runs down the hill where I live and fix some of their but as that water hits eroding the >> [cough] >> spoken to DNR because DNR go to my property to do mosquito. So they come at the end of walk down later which is great and but I think that we need to look at it and I'm very I think my property is kind of on the special side. You have to be a person that really likes wetlands where I live and enjoy the habitat and everything. Yeah, you see bugs you never thought you'd never see. But it's this part of the property. I've been there 20 years. I love where I live. But I am a little concerned about other things at first time, but I'm just looking for some updates. When you guys get ready, it' be great. >> Yeah. So the adding or extending sewer and water to that um to those properties was wasn't really part of our on our radar and we evaluated with the feasibility report. We we found out there was interest in that and we pulled Silver Fox and Jenny pieces Jenny laid out of the project. Um we just we haven't we again it wasn't something planned this project. So, we haven't had the resources yet to evaluate and get um that next step going to communicate with you, discuss with the neighborhood, and get some professionals out there to look at the septic systems. >> So, that's that's slated for next year, isn't it? It's going to be I I kind of when we talked about this this spring, it was like this is going to be a multi-year process because we're going to try to apply for some grants and some of those grants >> um will take some time to uh >> that's why the north half of Jenny Lane and that Silver Fox was pulled. >> Yeah, >> exactly. >> Silver Fox. >> Yeah. Anyway, enough said. Thank you guys. Have a rough night. >> Thanks, Greg. >> Thank you. >> Make our lives miserable, Val. Make our lives miserable now. Val, >> I'll come back and talk to you. All right. If that's all for open time, >> I need a motion to receive agenda materials and supplements. So moved. >> Second. All >> in favor say I. >> I. >> I need a motion to adjourn at 9:31. >> Sorry. >> Second. [laughter] >> What if I don't want to? >> Yes, you do. >> Way past. >> You say