so everything was okay good evening ladies and gentlemen it is 5 30 and i'll call this regular uh work session of the burnsville city council to order um i just want to remind everyone that this is a hybrid meeting and we are in person and also online and that council member keeley is absent today those who are online can join us at burnsville.gov meetings or you can watch us on channel 16 or 8 59 the public can also participate through zoom by joining us at zoom dot us slash join and if you want all of the information about tonight's meeting you can go to our web page and go to the council agenda packet so this is a work session and everything that we do here at our work session we go directly to the agenda the first item on the agenda is the phase three project update uh for city hall police maintenance facility and fire station two um city manager lindbergh do you have any opening remarks before i recognize um garrett beck our parks and recreational facilities director do you uh nothing much madam mayor i would just say that uh this update tonight is the culmination of quite a bit of work uh from our entire leadership team which has served as the core project team uh for the city hall police maintenance side of things as well as some additional fire staff who have been part of the fire station 2 project so looking forward to giving you all an update tonight and then really what we're asking for is certainly your feedback any additional information that you need and by the end of the evening hopefully some prioritization of what projects you might want us to take uh an additional look at as we move forward thank you garrett you're on deck thank you you're the lead on this on these facilities projects thank you uh good evening members of the council madam mayor um tonight we have the privilege to talk about our phase three facilities space study um this is uh update number two in the series i believe back in april we had the opportunity to share with council what the process was going to look like and introduce our consultants bkv who was hired to help us work with city hall police and the maintenance facility and then we'll be introducing cnh later who had the who we worked with on fire station number two a little bit about our program tonight we'll talk about the purpose of the space study there's some general information that is worth sharing and then i'll be turning it over to our consultant bkb and susan morgan and she will take us through where we're at to date and then we will as i mentioned hand it off to cnh and quinn hudson will be working with us on that so a little bit about the purpose of a space study um one of one of the benefits right off the bat is we have a chance to bring in professionals to take a look at our the existing structures of our buildings the bones the hvacs and and all of our different operating systems to to get the most up-to-date understanding of the health of the buildings where they're at which you know helps us with cip planning and things like that from there we asked our consultants to take a look at what do they perceive to be deficiencies for the buildings we asked them or we basically went into it with no assumptions we did not share with them hey this is what we're trying to get out of it we wanted them to come in to the next point work with staff and learn what we do compare that to what they are used to seeing out the two firms that we hire do numerous projects not only within the state but out of the state as well and and so they understand uh operations of of city services and things like that and so once they learn that to let us know what they think deficiencies are if there are any at all and then from there work within the the parameters that we've set based on what our facilities are like and to help us understand what some high-level short-term and long-term solutions are so in a space study like this we're not getting into the to the nitty-gritty details uh to fully understand there are pre-studies before you go into design that could help us get closer to that and then actually you know when you get into the design phase that's when you really start to to get some understandings but you know middle stages could involve soil borings and and look at watershed situations and things like that that generally don't happen in these types of studies so that's why i point out that you know this gives us about 85 percent to 95 percent of the information and this is a snapshot in time there's always new information that comes in it could be tomorrow it could be two years from now there could be things that happen in society that cause services to change whatever so these are fluid things but we try to give you the best snapshot of where we're at right now today as of july 12th once all that is put together our architects will look at cost estimates for solutions again we'll hear about how the 20-year average on a cost estimate is about four percent uh some of those years it is an eight percent increase some years it might be a 20 increase some years it might be a zero percent increase or a decline right so um there is no magical number or process and again these are our best guesses based on um the systems and the processes they use and then again at the end of the night we get to have this conversation share what we've learned with council and that gives us the opportunity to start to prioritize things determine if there's a need for additional information that you'd like to learn more about and whatnot so that is our goal for this evening on all four of the facilities some general information we know up front that our buildings are were built in the late 80s and early 90s and we know that our services and expectations of the community have have changed over that time and because of that that's kind of what started to stimulate you know it's not uncommon for cities with buildings at this age to start looking at some of these things so we have some complex studies going on here i will point out that bkvs process and expectations are more challenging than cnhs and that doesn't mean cnhs were easy but cnh went through this process already with us they know our fire department in and out and before they started the study from our previous project they know what we like and they delivered a great fire station one project so they came in ahead of anyone else and that's part of the reasons why we selected them because we enjoyed working with them they know our operations bkb was brand new they basically had to learn every department other than fire that we have and they had to look at three separate facilities and all the operations and things that go into that so that isn't anything other than just information sharing that the process takes a little bit longer for the city hall police and maintenance portion of it than it did for the fire station two point to get to where we are today existing building conditions sorry they we have um overall we have pretty good healthy buildings our maintenance facility is probably it's not terrible it just the type of service and the wear and tear that takes place out there has that one at a little lower level than the other uh three facilities but nonetheless they they're well maintained and taken care of um we we have situations that you're going to hear about today where cnh and bkv have identified that we have existing needs there are suggestions that we have future growth to look at over the next 20 years and at the same time we have site limitations on all four of the buildings all three locations we find ourselves landlocked and so as a result when it comes time to come up with solutions you either look at staying on the on the existing site and look at what your compromises are as you try to satisfy your needs or you have to look at is there a better property to to be looking at that we should consider and then the final thing that is worth pointing out right off the bat is our as we start to understand what our needs are and the scope of the needs on the city hall police side of things it became evident that because of the landlocked situation that we're in and where the barriers are around the city hall property and police property it became necessary that any solution that would involve satisfying the police needs had to move into the city hall spaces and and as a result to compensate for that we had the opportunity to expand city hall out the back of the building which is really the the primary spot where we have the ability to expand in this at this campus so with that um you don't have to listen to me anymore i'm going to turn it over to susan with bkb and she's going to take you through the findings that we have to date here for this project welcome susan thank you very much madam mayor council there's a lot of information to share and i know that these are get to be long meetings but please feel free at any point to jump in with questions there's no question too big or too small or out of left field so please feel free at any point to kind of jump in as garrett has mentioned it's been incredibly informative for us in this process and a study like this really wants to be as we mentioned to you last time an objective tool right it isn't just your staff telling you what you need you you hire an outside consultant that can provide some benchmarking to other municipalities other facilities in our information gathering and development we did include both some really detailed facility assessments we've been on your roofs we've been in your it closets we've looked at every single storage closet imaginable thanks to the wonderful staff in each facility we combined that review of the facilities as physical resources with conversations with both department leads and with every staff member that we could get to attend our listening sessions and that is a really incredibly valuable opportunity to understand how your staff directly provide their service and the ways in which if at all your facilities impact operations workflow collaboration even things such as morale and wellness and we get into conversations about hiring and retention and to what extent does a facility impact that so that's another piece from all of that information gathering we then begin to develop the space program as a spreadsheet matrix and this is idealized and by that i mean to say that we provide working both from your space standards for your offices and workspaces right every workstation is an x or y every office is an a b or c um and then from industry best practices so if we're looking at a training room that serves 50 there's a size that that room ideally is and we give it that size in the in the space program the output of that is a recommendation both by department and space type the quantity of spaces that you need and the sizes that they should be that also includes so that you know if you're somebody who loves the numbers that is your net square footage or your net assignable square footage we also then provide a grossing factor and for us that's the additional square footage that accounts for your corridors your stairs your elevators bathrooms etc so that output then is how much space you would need if you were going to build a facility and i i say this very specifically if you were going to build a facility that was optimized right and so for a lot of places the most efficient building is a one-story building because you don't have additional stairs and elevators right when we take that idealized recommended on paper round number program and we start to pull it into our test fits those numbers need to move a little bit and for instance in each of these facilities we're trying to then take those program needs and fit them into a boundary to work with them around existing corridors and existing pathways and you end up finding that you need a little bit more elbow room to make things fit and so we'll see that a little bit later but i think that contextualizes sort of our process overall any questions before i move on all right just keep going we're listening this sounds good because there will be questions i've already read your executive summary so perfect we'll keep going then so facility basics um and i think i'll be very light on this as garrett really covered this your facilities are of an age where they represent a very different era in service delivery that's for each of the departments there's been changes in public works there's been changes for police there's been changes even administratively for how you provide general administrative services uh to your public so that's kind of one piece the other piece is that your buildings and systems are reaching end of life you're already in a process of replacing some of your windows your capital improvements plan already identifies investments and things like replacement of main mechanical equipment and continued investment in technology a couple of things to point out for each of these so as as we've noted city hall is two stories it's connected to police that's an opportunity that we draw on with our recommendations police is also a two-story facility it's connected to city hall it is also landlocked in ways that are different than city hall so a little bit on every side right one short end touches city hall the other short end faces our water pump station and the underground retention tank to the other side you're adjacent to a driveway and some more storm water management and the other side is civic center drive so you've done a really good job of fitting in in that space but there are some limitations that we come up against when we look at a 20-year projection maintenance is somewhere sort of in between the two which is to say the sight lines the property is defined you have other property owners on three sides got the highway on the other side that space has a bit more capacity at this point to allow for some growth and you'll see that in the recommendations as with both projects we are drawing on the city's guiding principles and so as we take you through what for our team is going to be a look at city hall and police sort of together because they became interrelated and then maintenance we're going to use these as a barometer for an evaluation of the existing facilities and then an evaluation of our recommended strategies and hopefully this helps contextualize to what extent our recommendations get us to your 20-year goals so with that uh we're using tonight and hopefully this helps because it's always tough and slightly boring to read too much text on slides tags here that are either good fair or poor and so that will allow you a little bit of a quick skim of the information we also have detailed then back up if something is identified as good either in the existing or the proposed condition it reasonably embodies your guiding principles and it has an opportunity to embody that specific guiding principle or its underlying intent this also means that there are few to no impediments or constraints that allow us to achieve that so it is it is achievable with something that is fair right it's it's in the middle there are ways in which we can achieve or start to achieve the guiding principle and there's a point where we meet some resistance or a limitation in capacity for areas that are identified as poor the facility doesn't embody the guiding principle and there may be some reasons why that is the case so hopefully this is a way for us with each of the principles to understand kind of across the board how things rate and how they fare so starting with city hall and we could have added even a modifier at the top this is about the existing facility so the one we're in today in the configuration that it is in today from the standpoint of being welcoming to the community the answer is you do a reasonable job the facility does a reasonable job you have clear site access you have fairly generous parking compared to some facilities some of the downsides are the inside isn't as welcoming to the public and we even heard that through some of the approach to engagement that we provided in this project public space is somewhat limited and oftentimes we see that in two-story facilities that can be a flag in this case that both impacts the public's ability to kind of know where they're going to some of those event spaces but it's also a safety issue so when you have that many levels or multiple levels with areas that are out of line of sight of staff that's a potential safety issue functional and flexible so we identified this as poor because there are a lot of fixed elements that are really constraining your ability and one example i'll give is we spoke with a few different administrative departments and as they've grown there isn't space for the staff to be with their department so they're around a corner around the edge and somewhere else right in a facility that's flexible there's enough capacity to add one more person and to not have to provide that separation some of those fixed elements and you'll see this sort of come up in some of our recommendations also the council chambers actually its location and its proximity to your current service counter are one of the reasons why that service counter is parallel to your line of access and your line of entry most commonly you see that perpendicular so that whenever you come in there's at least that facial recognition that you get if not a greeting for efficient and effective for today considering the building when it was built and the operations for how you provide them today it isn't quite working and i know that that's sort of challenging because we do want to acknowledge your staff do a great job the way that they provide service the way that they've adapted for instance with the permits counter right you are doing everything you can to use your facilities but they're actually limiting your ability to provide service they're limiting your ability to have some key adjacencies between departments that work together and there are some impacts because you don't have capacity for growth and we'll see that that's actually an immediate need not just a projected need i'm going to kind of move through these because i know we have more to cover so with sustainable healthy and safe those are all fair those are categories where again there are some real positives right you have efficient glazing you have a really good effective exterior envelope right now the building though is designed for old ways of providing thermal comfort so it has the lowest number of of zones possible which means the person who sits by the window that gets hot turns it on and the person two feet away is freezing right we just provide more zones today right so that's one example for healthy and safe you know the building actually is two stories it makes you move so in one way that's considered uh healthy from the point of safety there are defined public and staff spaces right that limitation um to the offices is something that we all recognize but that's actually also a downside and for instance right now there's limited capacity to provide facility lockdown fiscally responsible i think as garrett noted for each of the three facilities our identification is um that you know things are good you maintain your buildings well you take care of them they are in as great a condition as they can be for facilities of their age and for their use this is also a responsible project this is a valuable time as you move ahead with planning both for your capital improvements and for capital projects to make the right decisions to make decisions that don't just solve problems for now but help you solve the challenges and the needs to come so as we looked at the facility as an outgrowth of the both the site assessment and the program assessment and you'll see this similar setup for for each of the three facilities we identify the program square footages at the top in the middle you're seeing the space deficiencies and that is the delta between the existing square footage and the projected square footage and then on the right hand side you'll see key priorities so for all three buildings you're going to see red numbers for the space deficiency which is even for today the size of the existing building versus the operations you're fitting into it everyone needs a bit more space that's in some ways a staff issue in some ways it's an operations and a workflow issue in other ways it's the support spaces necessary to execute your work according to current regulations or best practices when we look to that 15-year mark that grows part of your organizational analysis study was looking at your staffing every single department is growing in their own ways some are gaining more bodies some are still gaining but in smaller ways and so as we look that far out everyone needs to grow and adapt goals within this facility uh be really distinct from each of the other two which is this is both a place that people work and it's a place where there's a heavy amount of service provided to the public those are two distinct needs and a facility that supports those needs to have different kinds of attributes we are interested this is an identified home of the city of burnsville so priority for us is how can we make this facility adaptable and useful long-term we do want to make sure that we're addressing each of the key deficiencies whether items that we've heard about code and regulatory compliance whether it's issues of meeting space sustainability or health as as mentioned before there was there was a moment where we realized that there was an opportunity to take advantage of the current connection of police and city hall um right now it's almost a hard connection right there they're like there's a door at each level and so they're almost two separate buildings and where we kind of head with this is if we understand that they are actually connected buildings and you know there are code reasons why we'll probably have a fire door that ultimately separates them but that there is this opportunity to take advantage and to be able to address some of the space needs of police through an accommodation within the footprint of the city hall facility so then here the initial sort of grading chart for the police department again existing facility here the areas where there are pluses and minuses are welcoming to the community which reflects your recent investment in the public lobby which is a really valuable and impactful transformation being efficient and effective sustainable and fiscally responsible you know in in each of those areas the building is is supporting operations to a limit and this is one case where there has been such a tide change in operations the nature of what it means to be a police officer what it means to be a department the fact that you don't just have sworn officers but that you also have community service officers and um other representatives in the building that just didn't exist 20 years ago right and so that need and that understanding really has changed and so that's why when we identify functional and flexible that one is identified as poor which is your you're at capacity in almost every way right now for staff for vehicles and right now the building doesn't accommodate a few space types that we would put into any brand new police facility in the same way that you became aware with the detailed requirements of fire stations and the training and support spaces that are there for both health and wellness the same is true of police they have their own distinct needs and their best practices that currently can't be met within the facility and that kind of ties in we've identified that as a as an issue of health as well so the fact that there is no space to accommodate wellness and training in the ways that we would like or the ways that are beneficial is a real deficiency i i know we would like to see more green to start but we're here to be transparent and so the area where the building rates as good is that it does have defined public and staff spaces so your ability to control access is good and so that is something that we can build on and it's important to recognize so with police you're seeing a much more immediate pressure program-wise so that deficiency for today is a 12 000 square foot deficiency in a building that's currently 51 000 square feet that projected growth need kind of doubles in time and that is relative to staff increases because if you think of the today needs as addressing some of those foundational space types that you don't currently have that's kind of one piece over the long term there's going to continue to be an evolution in your service and the department and staffing and vehicles and so your fleet study is identified in increase in vehicles organizational study identifies an increase in staff so that's where you see that growth over time our goal is and i this is maybe a good time to point it out garrett you had mentioned that you know our two studies are slightly different within the city hall police and maintenance study there was a point with our core team the representatives from each of the departments where we had conversations about to what extent do you want us to walk you through what it might mean to leave this site and to what extent should we focus our energies on what you can do best with the facilities you have and through a robust discussion where multiple voices were chiming in the conversation was help us understand how to use the facilities and the properties that we have right and that speaks a little bit to that notion of fiscal responsibility that you know the most effective building you have is the one that already exists and so that really became our team's focus which was to look at each of the sites to try and understand to what extent we could accommodate expansions to what extent could we take a fresh look within the walls of each facility to accommodate some of those uses and in the case of city hall and police by removing the assumption that police had to remain in their footprint and to think of it as a city hall building in a police building to simply think of it as a municipal facility that houses both city hall and police that allowed us to address more closely and to approximate the police needs and i think as garrett mentioned there are limitations to that assumption right because their capacity and constraints on the sites and the buildings we can't accommodate a hundred percent of the recommended square footages for city hall for police or for public works and we'll come to that yes yeah um vince thank you susan at what point does it just make more sense to just build new than to keep retrofitting an existing building so great great question and it is um one that i may even have uh tim kittila from kraus anderson who's our construction manager cost estimator and assessor no no this is this is perfect and i think useful because it helps kind of put that information in your minds as we move ahead there are a couple of different considerations that come into whether or not you stay and invest or move move on one of those especially with urban and suburban communities is do you have anywhere else to go and that's a question which is either are there a number of spaces that are either underutilized empty or on the market and or are there areas where you believe you could be more effectively placed within the community specifically for things like police and fire we always want to make sure that we are mindful about locations that allow for meeting response time goals so there's you know especially if you wanted to keep police and city hall together that would start to kind of shape where you might fit within a community the next is maybe a more challenging consideration because there is a point at which sometimes on paper building new costs less than renovating and that can be seductive when you see it on paper but there's a lot that goes along with that you know as i mentioned kind of starting out that notion of the site selection can be particularly challenging there can be a perception on the public side that even if the number is lower there's a perception that you're not being responsible with the resources that exist and that's a different sort of a consideration there's also a moment where you in a study like this the question is how much growth can be accommodated sometimes in a study when we hit the programs and we take a look at the capacity that a site has or an existing facility has even with an addition we can sometimes maybe only hit a five-year goal or ten-year goal and that suggests you're probably not going to put in a multi-million dollar investment to a building that just won't serve you that long feels like we just did that with the burnsville police station but we were at four years and we got one green box on that list we spent 14 million and that's a i'm if i can park that for a moment i will come back to that um what i what i want to note is that with the three facilities um city hall and maintenance our projection is that we believe that you can and i'm specifically using the word approximate your 20-year goals with these facilities we identify that that is an approximation we don't hit 100 of the space goals because of the constraints and we've also identified that when we hit that 20-year mark at this point with our understanding and our projections of space needs we don't necessarily believe there's capacity beyond that if growth is what happens at that time now with that said we have been in a period within each of our careers where municipalities have been growing population has been increasing density has been increasing to what extent is that going to continue at the same rate in the next 20 years right now minnesota's population increases are starting to level out and to match national averages subject to municipality you're actually starting to see individual municipalities their growth being slightly lower than state averages and so you're not having that same incremental increase which then drives a need for a service increase and so that needs to be a part of that conversation because the question is right now because we're in that growth and because there are those deficiencies from kind of where you are if we can address 20 is it going to keep increasing is it going to be more moderate and there is also a limitation to our ability to predict and there's a reason why we kind of cap at 20. i wasn't a part of the police study i'm going to say something limited and if there are those who are involved who'd like to chime in i'm going to invite you to what i will note is that we often recommend a study like this which is holistic not just of a single facility but of all facilities together um in a way that allows you to look long-term as beneficial before key investments now as it happens you hit some needs there was a project that needed to be implemented to address some needs you made that investment we're able to build on that we're able to still leverage and utilize those resources what we've learned now allows you to kind of look to the future and hopefully it also contextualizes beyond simply the needs for police per se but understanding that each of your municipal departments need an investment that allows for that adaptability and i will just say that there are some times when we we look a little too short and it's important to look long and we're at a point where there's been a lot of useful conversations and analysis we've learned a lot from this process and it allows us to take a look at our recommendations to come to a place where we understand and this was maybe something i'm not sure if you even looked at in your last study we hadn't looked at it to start which was what if police moves into city hall that was actually sort of a an off the wall question that we asked as a core team and that police asked us to consider right the fact and that's why we have a study like this is to ask a big question in unique ways and to have the space and time to consider it so that is perhaps as much as i can say not having been a part of that process well i've been a part of that process and we're not going to go down that road anymore we have a very successful process with fire station one and it was an excellent process and no one no one has been disappointed with the result of that product not myself or any of the council members not staff not members of the community police was a different thing and that was a painful experience and i'm not going to go down that road it's cost us now that we have to go back and fix police because it wasn't done right so we're going to fix it and and i can't have the community shoulder the cost of the mistakes that were made so when we look um council member workman at whether we relocate oh my god do you understand what the kickback is going to be from the community after we 2018 when we fixed when we built the police out well excuse me um here was my thought i think greg and i talked about this when this first came up if i had a wish list on how all this would look as we would kick the police station across the street to the old shop that building's 32 years old and then we have all this room in pd to stretch our legs for city hall which would mitigate the costs i'm not a uh engineer by any means um but mile high that was my you know that was kind of my creative um thought when we first started this conversation or at least when greg and i were in his um office talking about it yeah mayor and council i would say that uh with the help of bkb and cnh staff has very much prioritized and heard from you that our guiding principles are our starting point right and and we did our best with our partners with our consultants uh to assemble information in an unedited and informed way to get you the information that you need to make policy decisions about what if anything we do in terms of of capital projects moving forward um we've reached a time and frankly we spent a lot of time even this weekend uh talking with susan her team uh the leadership team about um about making sure that really we were accomplishing two things that first you were getting the unfettered information from our consultants we hired them to to do work and even though some of that might be operationally politically or community community challenged that we were going to give you that information and that it was important to us that as a leadership team we were unified around how the needs were reflected to you said another way that we all have departmental priorities we all have perspectives at the end of the day we're one organization best serving the the needs and the interests of our community and that we weren't going to learning from both past mistakes and past successes that we weren't going to edit that information we hired experts for a reason because they were edited for me and i did not like that um and i i said this to our our leadership team on on wednesday or on monday i i recognize that uh that that that leads to some challenging questions uh and again my priority was to get you the information and then ultimately ask you what if any priorities do you have uh for future work and future exploration several several of us have talked about different ideas vince absolutely you and i talked about about that concept we've stopped short of those types of concepts at this point in time in the study going back to what garrett had said we're 80 85 percent kind of into our needs right now and i felt that it was important that we get you what we have in terms of an update tonight and seek a little bit more direction before we got over our skis from a staffer on operations perspective it really feels that another way maybe more simply that we need some policy direction from you and and that's that's really why we're we're here tonight i want to clarify i'm not sitting here recommending we tear down the maintenance shop and build a new police station right now but if we're playing in the sandbox you know that it's a very nice innovative and creative right the thing is yeah i'm going to go to garrett and then kara madam mayor members i also just want to touch on council member workman's question about i had the privilege to be part of the police project back in 2016 through 2018 and one of the things i led off with tonight was we went into this with no assumptions and to me that was an absolute priority that had to happen for because that's what we did with the fire station and that's what we did with this project in that project back in 2016 some of the results were already written for us there were parameters in place and we were not to exceed those parameters and that was made very clear and so i believe we had some very glaring needs in the police project and we met those needs within the parameters but we were not able to accomplish all the needs so that was one thing two other things since that time we've done a staffing study council and city staff didn't the the request was there by some but we did not have an appetite for a staffing study at that point so staffing studies have changed the needs of the police department and we also have had significant change in policing on how we do business since 2016. and so that has also added you know how bkv was building police stations back in 2016 is different than how they're doing them now right so there there were definitely some things that we could have done better um we have discussed them at nausea and we have committed to not making those mistakes again and that's why i told greg tonight i'm like i've never felt more comfortable coming before council being able and willing to share everything that we know holding nothing back so that at least you know exactly what we know so that we can have priorities and understand what we should be getting more information about if it's needed or where we should be going if we're ready to make that decision so we're in a much better place and a lot of it has to do with the leadership both at the council level and at management to make us have the ability to ask these questions have these discussions and not feel like we have to guess or pick and choose what we're allowed to share so and i thank you for saying that because and i thank you greg for your leadership because there was a lot of muzzling of staff back then there was definitely some to the point where i have to write a email after two verbal requests on the study and not receive it and then the third time around i had to write an email and then cc the city attorney and cc the council members so please understand and to the chief uh you are captain at that time but you were part of the of understanding some of the process but not part of the team but chief bj you were part of that team that was a painful experience we're not going down that road anymore and so i'm glad to know from you garrett that you're feeling comfortable with this police didn't have the opportunity to talk about all of the things that were needed and now we are stuck with what we have and we have to fix it and we're going to fix it cara you had your hand up yes uh so when you were looking at different solutions especially with police and i do understand that you're looking at police and city hall not as separate buildings but as a building when you were going through that and looking at that did you also examine how police and fire station two could work together because our our situation is very unique it's not like a lot of other cities um and did you examine that and if so what did you come up with so the exploration of a potential pairing of headquarters for police or the police department in total with fire station 2 is not something that the team has looked at to date i think that example is again as an outgrowth of a study like this might be a next step if that's something that you would like to explore our projects were a little bit separate and i don't know greg or garrett if if you have a little bit more context for that i would go i would go back to to reiterate what garrett has said uh councilmember schultz they are ideas that from a staff perspective operationally we've sat in rooms and talked about as a leadership team we didn't want to make assumptions at this point in time with the direction that we had essentially to assess our needs from a square footage perspective and respect each of the guiding principles in doing that work we felt that we needed at this point in time some direction from you whether or not that would be a a policy direction that you would like to see us go in future study said more simply we recognize that additional architecture and engineering work is going to have to go in to even understanding our needs before we would start drawing plans or looking at a capital project but at the other point i would say it is we're not as the mayor and council members we're not industry specialists and we don't know all of the needs that police have and just as we didn't know everything that uh fire and paramedics uh had i mean with what they put in place they're surprised with all of the things that we didn't know about but because i've been so involved with what happened to police i do know that there's deficient in so many ways because they were locked and they were muzzled without our understanding so i think if we're going to look at something like that council member uh schultz i want to understand whether police and fire would see that as a doable functionality right now we have something that could work we have space to the north and space to the east but we also need some innovative engineers don't tell me it can't be done because i've seen it across the country where things can be done and i've seen it at fire station one windy we took a property with a hill and then it they re configured that property and put a building in there after lowering it 20 how many square foot did you have to 15 feet 15. thanks hey i was in the ballpark okay if i may follow up yeah the reason why i ask is because um in looking at um some other areas that are are looking at redesigns especially with how police is changing so their behavioral health units are pairing up with their with their ems units and so they are um they're they're dispersed at the fire stations uh and then for some of the wellness and and that type of thing they're combining their police and fire together so that they're training together having that wellness together and that type of thing so less asking if we move all of it to fire station two and more asking if this is something that we get ahead of and start incorporating in these designs that's a that's a great uh question thank you very much council member and even from what's been raised right now these are exactly the kind of conversations we have as a result of a study is for you each to feel that you have information that allows you to think about things in new ways right oftentimes at the end of a study we've gone through a process there's been a direction to what and how we focus and investigate we often end up with a portion of our report that includes some guidance for what a council might do next right additional considerations additional understandings we're at a point between the two projects that we currently understand their space needs in separation right you now have the information um and any team that you might want to work with has the information to explore a potential combination we've worked with a couple of different municipalities where co-location into a single public safety building is beneficial the exploration of whether or not the maintenance site is useful is a question that we that we asked ourselves and open things up to and so what i might note and it's it's for your consideration is which if any of these explorations would you want to add to or expand to the current work that our teams are providing and which of these do you want to provide as a list and a guide to yourselves for something that comes next that comes after with all of the information that's available so maybe that gives just a little bit of of of context and um certainly i think council members you noted uh there can be uh some space efficiencies um as you look at a combined public safety building in terms of shared vehicle garage and otherwise with training spaces wellness and otherwise their the scale of that is again something we would want to consider so even as i responded to your current question there's a difference between fire station two as it stands alone and if you end up with a bit more elbow room either for a portion of um police services or if you were moving entirely and i think one thing also that we should note is that a study like this which is really grounded around the facilities right the buildings as objects resources starts to draw in from the organizational analysis we learn about your considerations of staffing and projections we learn a little bit about projected operational changes right and so it starts to be a little bit about buildings a little bit about operations a little bit about people and i think as has been noted there is a lot that we are now able to kind of bring together if i use an analogy right we we had a lot of different ingredients you as the city had a lot of different ingredients our study brings it together into a dish now you get to decide what happens next right you get to decide whether or not you're adding something to it you get to decide if you're adding other plates to the table i think it may be beneficial for conversation to keep going if that makes sense to carry this on it may allow some other questions to come up i know that we have folks who are taking notes so everything that we're discussing we will continue to take back to our core team as we reflect the conversation that we've had with you tonight why don't we have you continue with um with your presentation okay because you haven't gotten into city hall you're we're looking at police but thank you very much madam mayor so um we already i think teased teased things here which is um as a result of dialogue with the core team the initial exploration was how and to what extent can we accommodate 20-year needs for city hall and police on this site for us that included expansions of construction in three different areas expanding the garage at police and we know that that was studied a little bit earlier and would need more detailed review by a civil engineer you've got some topography coming in watershed that would want to be explored further but there would be an efficiency in being able to extend that structure as it exists there happens to be a one-story portion of the building on police they're kind of on the top side as you look at the drawing if we expand that as a second story construction valuable square footage to recoup and then really what serves us chiefly is to expand as we call it kind of to the back of the building as as you folks refer to it as as the north of the building and that is a two-story addition again at the stage of a study we don't get into design so there are no little inlets or no little bay windows yet or anything like that it is you know functional space that we're looking at and from a cost perspective we seek to be efficient and effective and so for instance being able to take that police space make it second story is pretty efficient to kind of raise the walls from where they exist with city hall to be able to provide the floor space at one level in the lower level we're just bringing it up as kind of the same footprint in size there were questions and our team did explore exploring to the sides of city hall to one side you have your kind of pond and wetland space and for reasons both of code stormwater management and potential minnesota b3 sustainability requirements you actually can't pick up much growth in that direction and so we found that it was more effective for us to explore to the back of the building there was a moment and thanks to the core team for working with us we are now on option h out of the many versions that we have explored for the building and earlier versions wrapped around to that left side where currently you've got a loading dock and staff space that's a bit more challenging because you have a driveway you have an outdoor chiller which is a piece of mechanical equipment that needs air above it and around it and so that possibility sort of still sits on the table in the future but what i will note is once we come to our diagrams there were some decisions we made about the inside that start to want to leave that edge open um so i think that kind of covers the the general notes here i will also say that we've had a conversation um about homage and redevelopment of the front plaza so that would be a part of the project and has been included in our cost estimations as well uh you folks have probably seen diagrams from from every single architect and they all look different and they all use different techniques what i will note in this case is that we've simplified the information for viewing on screen the reason why you see a kind of joseph and the technicolor dreamcoat here is because we actually looked at the space needs of every single administrative department and we looked at who they needed to be nearby for how work is performed and also for the relationship to service counters and so each of those different colors is a distinct department and we are able to accommodate the departments for their projected 20-year needs with also some additional capacity for adaptability adding a staff member here there changing from a workstation to an office that is kind of accommodated two pieces that i will point out the red dash line to the top side of that is the addition to the building and you will see that as we explored our options the move that we felt made a substantive difference in allowing us to provide a more welcoming and inviting experience and to ensure that we had more than just a sliver of space behind your service counter which means that we can get the departments near and the bodies near the counters that actually meet with the public regularly that we're shifting where the city council chambers are this room does not exist in that plan behind us through that curved wall would become a new entry so this allows you both in the same way that police with their new entry feels a little bit more welcoming and inviting has more presence even as your small vestibule has that kind of front can become a place where people can maybe see in and connect the space that people would arrive into would be more gracious and as you're seeing with the kind of depending on which screen you're looking at some version of pink or salmon there's a little bent edge and that is the service desk so you have the ability to walk in not to feel like you have to look around for for staff but you have that direct line of sight to them this also allows us more of an ability to manage safety and we're also providing a little bit more openness with public meeting rooms and those are kind of shaded in yellow yes yeah so the public meeting rooms are in yellow so they need to go oh pardon me um is there a laser pointer light yellow um light yellow so next to the word lobby where you see the pale yellow with stripes in it um if you can see stripes okay um yes not the bright yellow the bright bright yellow is a department um stat public does not go beh behind that line yes okay wonderful question that was a question the public facing the public facing space is light yellow yeah okay so second question um i do it get what you're saying about when people walk in that little cut in gives them a little more line of sight um yes we want people when they walk in to be able to access the lobby and get help and all that kind of stuff uh but i think equally important is when people walk into our building they can see into council chambers immediately and having it towards the front because when when we're going to you know different trainings on how to make your council chambers more approachable how do you get more people to come in and we're even hearing things like well without windows that makes people less likely to come in if you have a door shut less likely to come in if it's so many steps they have to go further less likely to go in so i'm wondering why council chambers is back because that's that seems to go against what we've been told is is actually you know how you want your council chambers designed and placed and i think it would be great and greg you and i talked about this that we take some tours so we can see the different um municipalities their municipal buildings and where their council chambers are located so because i had the same reaction uh you have council member schultz then i started to research different city halls and where their council chambers were located and they're all different i think fridley's is upstairs that's god-awful yeah i mean like that's like please don't come please don't come to our meeting and that's why we don't want you in there and that's why we're going to sorry freddie yeah i'm trashing on you yeah so for us to take a look at a whole lot and take two words just like we did when yeah and get a sense because i had the same reaction if it's going to be in the back i want people to have accessibility to what our process is because it is a transparent process so yeah but uh let's take a look um greg uh madame air absolutely and there was a lot of robust discussion around council chambers uh council member schultz and i share i frankly share your perspective and i would also say that i have learned a great deal about the challenges of trying to engineer space and we have a uniquely shaped space that is uniquely positioned on the property uh to limit us from what i would say is is full potential and then that kind of goes back to some of where uh the the core team and and our partners kind of made the decision that we we frankly need to get you some more information get a little bit more direction and i would absolutely agree with the mayor that should we should we get much further in a dialogue about what the city hall space should look like that we need to get out there and start getting your perspective by looking at some facilities and kind of following garrett's lead in how that best would be programmed into any next step should we take them all right yeah okay madam mayor if i may yeah council member schultz um one of the things we are so there's this might be a good time to point out um we had a little bit of community engagement in this project but we didn't go full scale right one of the reasons why susan referenced that those boxes kind of represent departments is but there's no names on those departments is because when you get to that next step where things actually end up that that dive into final design and construction documents is a whole other level right and so for this particular project the the most important thing is to determine can we come up with the square footage and fit it within this box right and every one of these boxes can be moved around one of the things about this particular design is we maintained the bathrooms that we just did right and when you start moving plumbing and so for all of the things that have been mentioned tonight there's a solution and the cost of those solutions will go up the more complex they are you know can we build more square footage on this property yes it may involve knocking down the entire building and and redoing the the footings and everything like that to allow right so there's always a solution but we're exploring fiscally responsible solutions that meet the vast majority of our needs and help us to determine where we go next if if that makes sense and and i would say because one of the things that in your background you know with what you're presenting to us there is a cost that you've applied to all of this yes and i've looked at that and what that's today's cost that's not tomorrow's cost now each time we're going to delay this and move to more and more work you're telling us that it's going to be anywhere between uh eight percent inflation rate six percent inflation rate uh maybe four percent if we're lucky but right now with everything that's going on in our economy you're looking at an eight percent inflation rate with what the cost that you've given us this evening yes so i these are great i'm not asking here's yeah to clarify i am not asking for more work i am probably thinking of less because i i mean i i'll tell you just like i'm on my first glance and i and i understand what you're doing with the lobby and the expansion and having those community rooms but that's i mean it's going to be a a tough thing for me to look at a plan that sees council council chambers shoved to the back in the side and say that that's a good use of space so that is my that is my feedback right now i'm sure you have taken these boxes and arranged them six ways to sunday um i do understand yes you don't want to move anytime you move bathrooms you know like i get it like i completely get it um but that's an area of difficulty for me in looking at how we're trying to make this space work and you know adding on the back and and that type of thing so that is my initial feedback for for what it's worth um to me that's a red flag yeah yeah i think and and i get it because as i looked at this the first time right now when you go to eagan their reception room is here and then the council chambers is over here so it's like there's a lobby and where it says department office space is where the eagan council chambers are so it's to the right rather than to the to the left so if i may um and we maybe didn't preface tonight in the right ways this is exactly what we want to be hearing right this conversation is a part of this study and our development what you see on screen is a result of the voices that have chimed in thus far right those are voices of the department leads the folks who work in the spaces and you are key stakeholders and so your perspective is a part of what we take into account i there has not been a municipal study that we've done where the diagrams haven't changed as a result of conversation with council this is this is what we're here for so i welcome the the questions and the concerns a couple of things that i would point out is that in any project you have to weigh in balance the priorities we can guide dialogue with the core team in one way um it's then also important for you as council members to weigh in balance the priorities in this case the conversation that got us to this version was about goals related to public service delivery and welcome and to efficiency on the side of operations so so on that scale that weighed a little bit higher right if if that proximity the messaging of the placement of counsel is more important to you as a community as garrett has said there's an option that explores that one piece that i will point out and it's sometimes difficult at this stage because we don't have those three dimensional views currently the space between the side wall with the windows and your service counter is the space between one of those little dots which is a column and the wall right so narrow we are more than doubling the width of that space and when you come into the lobby the first thing you would see would be a glass wall into council it's not a solid wall we wouldn't expect it to be a solid wall and there is nothing that impedes your view for a width of 50 plus feet in width so you walk in and even though it is farther away from you you have a visual connection to it and there is the space that invites you to move through hard to imagine that or picture that but that is this condition we would hope coming out of tonight's conversation and potentially for considerations that you have that come back to us through garrett if it's time to come back to one of those earlier versions that has the council in another place we've we've got that and we're we're interested in exploring that and our goal as an outgrowth of this kind of a study is that we have demonstrated the feasibility of fitting the pieces in in a way which is functional from the standpoint of our cost estimators moving the pieces inside it doesn't really impact the cost yeah right unless we start doing this from b c and d so all of that is where you're saying it's shipping and only about uh seven feet farther than that glass wall yeah that's what i'm looking at but i would say absolutely it is so valuable as as you have done council member to put yourself at that front door and say does it does it feel far does it feel like it's conveying a message of distance and reproach and that's what spaces do we're mindful of that so absolutely let's let's keep the conversation going and if that that needs to find a different home and if that's a priority there there are opportunities okay thank you why don't you proceed yes thank you i know great great conversation we could take the whole night cnh has been wonderfully patient thank you very much um what i do want to know just before we leave this you've all seen it labeled on the plan in blue is police and so that is moving into currently where you have finance and hr and so that is an adjacency that is a capacity that meets the program needs and works with the relationship excuse me of other spaces within police yeah vince is this we're talking about hiring 11 and a half new police officers in the next 10 years 44 and a half more staff you know at large and i know these are just schematics but is this sufficient enough especially with police thinking about that much of a staff increase that it's going to be sufficient in five or ten years great question and a great lead into the next slides so you've set us up perfectly if i'm seated up continue so let's do that because the chief is here and she'll speak up also in terms of her needs yes and she will also correct me if i say anything incorrectly because her voice has been in the discussion yes my assumption is that top green box on the left there is greg's office correct i would answer that question but uh i've tried not to express my opinion about where my blob was located here as to respect the process because i didn't really like it to begin with so i haven't shared those thoughts uh it's an open dialogue it is so here we go i'm moving us to the lower level of city hall which will then lead us into police and we'll be able to talk staffing great question and i think we have a positive answer for that so at the lower level the big change here and you see that red dash line is that your public meeting rooms that are now kind of arranged in an l shape which is sort of awkward and you can't kind of put them all together they move into the new addition they're three in a row you can use them as three dif individual rooms you can use them as two rooms you could use them as one big room they all have windows they will all have support spaces and it's giving you flexibility and for us as we think about a bigger building it is also putting the spaces that don't need daylight like storage and bathrooms into the heart of the building so that's pretty pretty valuable you are seeing a couple of other changes kind of in a half which is otherwise currently mostly storage police moves into the lower level and this allows for three distinct training spaces your defensive tactics your primary kind of training classroom and your physical conditioning space as well so this actually becomes a pretty efficient uh floor plate there would be some investment you're seeing kind of white and gray bubbles on the outside of the building that represents an investment in some landscape features including outdoor wellness for police and that you know kind of would be a reconfiguration of existing outdoor landscape spaces yeah cara if i can ask and again you probably move this all over hell but i'm seeing where the elevator is and the elevator is not by the public meeting rooms and then the police training facilities is not by the police outdoor wellness areas good questions good questions so a couple of things um we already have about 150 000 in the budget for simply refreshing your elevator that's just giving you a new cabin new equipment if we move the whole hoist way that's something to think about i'm going to go back so if you kind of put your mental finger on the elevator right now and where you'd like it to be if we switch back to the top it could become somewhere in the staff spaces right and so there's a little bit of a challenge there because we want the elevator and the stair first of all to be in public spaces from the standpoint of universal access it is much more welcoming inviting if the stairs in the elevators start and stop at similar places and actually in this diagram we are i believe peter shifting the staircase in this scheme and partly that is to open up some of the lobby space so relocation of the elevator could be something that you look at in the future it probably isn't going to move too far off of your public quarters and it probably won't move all the way to the top because it just wouldn't be in the right places at both the upper and the lower levels susan uh to the west of the of where you have police training you have gray which is storage so uh a couple of key things and this um pardon me madam mayor uh this gets the question about you know do you rotate police training yeah so one of the spaces we really try never to move is the main mechanical space and the main mechanical space and the main mechanical space is that big gray i remember where it's located uh or is it electrical main electrical room so yeah so kind of the workhorses of the building now that you said it i know exactly where yeah all those mechanical spaces are downstairs and um in an interesting way and i i could point at it on this screen i will try to use my words because i can't point it on your screen maybe garrett can use his pointer yes thank you garrett um so actually in the police footprint in their upper left-hand corner that is white down in the police building down down down over over over there we go that room is going to become the wellness and yoga room and so actually if you you're going to go outdoors you might leave from that space and walk out to the outdoor space so you don't actually have to go through any kind of a rabbit warren or the connection point that we have with the double kind of corner arrow is a quarter which connects to receiving so you could go through there and then out a door so there is there are ways which are more direct that are outside versus inside and i would defer to the chief as to kind of priorities and if that is something which um would be worthwhile to drive a reconsideration of the puzzle piece arrangement chief yeah madame are members of the council i would i agree that it's a difficult space to get to in that way i mean ideally um yeah the same thoughts so if you want the space to be contagious yes yeah so you're not having to walk through and you know there's a a chiller out there receiving is out there trucks are coming out there so it's for space that's quiet or wellness you know it's just um something to consider as we looked at where can we get some outside space so it's a priority to me to have that space for our officers it's just the where receiving is it's our only receiving area so that's a challenge that we have well i'm going to trust that you all are going to resolve that with the chief and our um leadership team and police yes to have a big voice in that and they understand what the need is and it will do thank you very much for the direction yes what is green uh green is the facilities workroom and workshop and receiving storage so it kind of is used by the incoming products and materials and vendors coming in and out of the loading area and the receiving area okay and so like that little white snick taken out of it that's a hallway an upper go up there oh yes that's uh that's a landing for the stair and an access point as you kind of land on the stair and come down and around okay so i guess my question is does the police training does the police training facility need to be there or can it not be where the public meeting rooms are and flip flip that around does the storage area have to be a storage area the reason why i'm asking is because if we you know does it does it strictly have to be an area that can be walled off and locked down just because it's a police training area i don't i don't know that or can it be a place where police feel fine because they're walking through a hallway they go to their training facility area and then that outdoor space does not appear that it would be as as loud and as busy around it and you're getting more daylight on that side of the building i would assume right so but i mean i don't know i don't know i'm positive you've looked at that but but that is that is my question on that will chief i'm sure because you know the elevator is a big deal for me right the elevator for you know when we're looking at public meeting room access you know the elevator is a big deal i get it i get it that moving the elevator is not an inexpensive prospect it's not um so how do we get the places where our public are going to be coming in and out to have greater accessibility with that elevator and how how do we get the police to an area where if they're trying to have training and they're trying to have their outdoor time and that type of thing it's just a little more off to the side away from public even though they have to cross through i don't know oh man i mean our members of the council i would say our training facilities where we do classroom we do need to have security it would have to be secured space and also for wellness outdoor space would be secured in private space because of a lot of different reasons but to be able to actually relax and have space to not be worried and you know with the job that they do we have to have it secured so also walking through is a challenge so if you're walking into other public spaces and doing that it's not ideal i would say but yes we do when we do training in those classrooms it's got to be secured because we have a lot of different people and weapons and things that we would people would have access to so security of the police areas is still going to be a main concern as we look at where we put the boxes in here i think these are great insights and the where i first go to and i'm also mindful that um there's sort of an efficiency which is we don't want to have your staff walk too far into city council right and so what i see is taking up that blue box and shifting it to the right if we shift it to the right it is and could have a direct access to the egress door and an outdoor space there that could be shielded secure and protected on that kind of right-hand side what that does is only moderately lengthens the the hallway that connects the two buildings and could be a way for us to address this and so i think with each of the considerations we've heard tonight our team's next step is to circle back with the core team um how do we kind of explore some of these resolutions and in the same way that we quickly worked through those other options to work through some considerations that the chief and others can review for alignment with with goals and needs okay madam mayor i i would just add that you know as this has been a very time consuming lots of thoughts process and you know what you're seeing tonight is the latest iteration of trying to accomplish all the things that meet police's needs which is on their on uninterrupted space where it is secure i mean there's sea just rules there's all kinds of things that are required um keeping them from having to go out into public spaces uh and if you think about our facility that back corner is probably the most secure corner available on our property if we start going to the east there's a stairwell over there directly accessible from our park our main parking lot it's a challenge of this is just one of the we are working with existing conditions and trying to identify as for this particular study where we are at this place and time if we were to try to accommodate all the needs that we've identified what is the best place so will this be the final um probably not but there's a lot of thought that's gone into trying to come up with the best possible solution for tonight from where i sit when we look at all of this our chief and our officers know exactly what they need and that's what's important because that was the same thing with regard to fire station one we didn't have all of the input that you're asking for now well then do you want input or do you not want to well i'm just asking you know you have some things that you're talking about security chief uh and a police training facility for me it needs to be about what their needs are and then when we look at the public spaces then that's part of where we come in but with regard to police training facility and security and all of that that's they know better than i do what their needs are uh dan gustafson you had your hand up well i just was going to say i i like the process you're going through and all this it's a i like how it looks uh where the space ends up i'm not sure based on needs it changes i've been involved in different things many times in my life and you start out one way and pretty soon thinking it through you go a whole different direction i think what's important tonight for me is is this the direction we want to go to expand city hall and our police department and if so then we go into the next phase and now we start designing and then we can have these conversations of putting this over here or putting that over there and that sort of thing yeah i council member um gossips and i appreciate that that kind of framing of this which is the study takes it to a certain point which is do the spaces fit can they fit what i will note is the document of the report which then serves as your tool for implementation and continued dialogue has assumptions and qualifications and so on the diagram we may end up with a note at training right that it needs proximity to an outside wall in our space program matrix the hard and fast document that absolutely whomever comes next will start to work from we have a notes column we put in the notes column desired adjacency between indoor training and outdoor training provided secure and adjacent right so all of this information ultimately finds a home the degree to which we keep moving the puzzle pieces now and the degree to which we agree that we have validated the possibilities is you know direction that we'll look from and as i mentioned it is pretty typical for us we want to receive the input tonight we want to make one more revision of this because we haven't yet had your voices right we want your voices to be a part of it um our goal i think as a design team coming out of this is can we get to a revision of this which is acceptable as documenting the general goals and the strategies identifying those items that need and should be considered in more detail in the next phase okay yeah cara so to ask a clarifying question on the input that you want do you care about things such as can the elevator be closer to public meeting rooms or not or is that not information or questions that you wish to have tonight tonight is the night for it and certainly there's opportunity that follows this this is a good time for it when we come to the cost slides usually that's where people's requests of how much can move hit a point of saying oh i i wonder if i feel comfortable asking for that many changes this is a time i would say a study is the time for these questions it is all on paper um our cost team they have these amazing tools and in two seconds they can tell you how much it costs to change the elevator and what that does to the bottom line this is the time to understand that and in the report we can identify as a breakout if it's necessary and valuable to achieve some goals some functionality and to better embody your guiding principles movement of stairs and elevators and bathrooms we can say that adds an additional 1.5 million to the project that's not the number don't don't that's not the number uh and i know that those are those are expensive moves they are expensive moves um but depending on the price tag that is put on this whole thing and looking at a priority they're there may be things that we value as a priority over other things such as do we have to have that white of a lobby maybe yes i i don't know but what is the priority on certain things and for me accessibility issues are very high in my priority we appreciate that garrett council member schulz i'd like to validate what you're saying and and what susan's saying is this is absolutely a time to be asking those and it goes into the concept of no assumptions right we're not going to assume that bathrooms and elevators and anything can't be moved right let's if everything's on the table that helps us to say okay this is a priority this is a priority this is a priority and as we move into the next step those are things that we can have at the top of the list to make sure that we're checking the boxes to the best of our abilities so i this is a conversation and i i appreciate the feedback so and i think before you put down all of those things that's one council members saying that that's a priority and what's the cost benefit that i would ask to all of that and what's the benefit to all of that and then i would like to also find out from my colleagues if moving those kinds of things and and and adding more cost moving all of that what's the cost benefit and whether they would agree to that and that's just one person's you know so um yeah this is the time for us to do that but to keep this process moving along and understanding what that cost is going to be uh i need to understand um do you want to move you know when we did fire station i kind of just tried to stay out of the way and say bj you know yeah i'm not enough to go to work there every day i don't sleep in that building so when you ask me what color we should paint it i said you pick um yeah and but we never had to go through this kind of exercise but susan is asking us to participate so i mean i'm willing to but as far as you know moving staircases and stuff you know if tonya and her team's happy with this layout then i would support that because you have to go to work there every day not me yeah but it's more than just police down there like we're not just talking about police down there if we're putting public meeting rooms down there that's area for us to have input on especially if it's coming into accessibility issues question on that gray part and that pink part what is that so right now at the center of the existing building the kind of gray piece just by the red dash is building storage uh additional restrooms for the public meeting rooms and their support and catering kitchen the two pink spaces are the um great scott pardon me we were just doing some last minute changes so i'm trying to get all of this correct that is the fitness space and the staff locker rooms for the city hall fitness space because in this version police and city hall staff no longer share the fitness room right yep um one and so um in order lots of thoughts here pardon me one of our thoughts and the reason why originally the public meeting rooms moved into the new space was because we would get to choose where the columns are right one of the challenges of your existing meeting space is that you have some columns in some awkward spots to put to keep them in the existing space which may be warranted we would want to look at um how can we fit them in the spaces in the existing building where there's more of a clear span between spaces and i'm looking at a couple of spots where that might be possible but we would you know our goal is always even in a space like this when we're renovating we want to improve the conditions you have now we want you to have spaces that are more functional than today's spaces are so i appreciate that note and um it is you know why i'm asking absolutely i'm because i'm looking at the i'm what i'm trying to accomplish is getting all of our public spaces closer to that elevator and if you move the elevator to the back now when people come in to get to the elevator to go to they have to go so you know it's six and one half a dozen the other so my questions aren't so much of i want to be an interior designer it's how can we get our public meeting rooms closer to the elevator for accessibility issues so that's where my my train of thought is on on looking at this so flipping and putting department office space to where it is and putting the public to the blue area uh greg you had your hand up um certainly you've heard councilmember schultz that that accessibility is part of our guiding principle of being welcoming to the community and the feedback to your question to your point is very helpful um and that's part of what this discussion is i'll also go back to what vince just said um i think one of the hallmarks of the success of the fire station one project was we had some of these conversations the council gave us very clear policy direction on the guiding principles that we've tried to reapply to this project and we built a facility that that met the operational needs and met our community needs based on on your feedback so really trying to kind of navigate that line between what's a policy question what's an operational decision and that's really what tonight's conversation is is designed to be and i would be i'd be remiss not to say that that's how i've approached uh our leadership team our core team conversations about this project i want to learn from what went well there certainly i want your feedback as we figure out how to best do that um but at the end of the day there are going to be different nuances between how police space starts to work out based on their operational needs and and what accessibility looks like in our public spaces one of my aha moments in this work has been we are absolutely without question limited by the fact that that we're trying to design within the the functional existing space that we have and and a responsible addition to the facility to meet square footage needs um and what i've learned particularly this weekend alongside garrett and others uh tanya uh included um is that we will not meet everything that we've talked about tonight plain and simple unless we build from scratch like we did with fire station one it's kind of an apple st to orange's comparison and that's why kind of going back to your points councilmember schultz that's why this dialogue is going to be a bit more important in this project and frankly why i wanted to make sure that we were that we were connecting with this update because they are substantively different projects so and greg you and i talked about this because my concerns were the same as paris that i wanted the public facing space to be accessible to everyone and so that's i think that's the policy question the policy question is that make the public spaces accessible to the public because that's how forward looking that's the policy question how you guys configure this will come down to how it best meets the functionality for police and for our staff but the public facing spaces need to be accessible to uh to the public so how you reconfigure that is what you need to do that's the policy question and i think we'll step out and continue with your because i think that's what councilmember um schultz is getting at and that's a conversation that i had with with greg from the beginning uh public we're transparent yes the only other thing that i also want to make sure is that upstairs when we get to uh the council chambers there has to be an exit strategy for the council taking into consideration the environment that we find ourselves in and i know what goes on across the country with council members and mayors being shot at so it's going to happen there has to be an exit strategy for for council members and staff metamer that's a that's a great point and i would also say that some of where these boxes have landed are a result of very intentional conversations the core team has had with our consultants and i've had specifically with bj and tanya about facility security at the end of the day there is nothing more important to me than people going home at night and and we need to be cognizant of all of that in our in our early needs discussions and through architecture and engineering the the flip side of that reality is that likely makes a project more expensive um and again those are touch points that we will connect with you on the policy decision around what a project might cost should you give us direction to proceed i think tonight you've learned that we want the public spaces to be available and accessible to the public and then uh how they get there you know whether it's stairs elevators we appreciate that management that's the policy question that you've heard this evening that's helpful direction to know that that can be a driving factor what i will note and this maybe brings together a couple of points of input is while you're seeing a strategy and you've heard about the mythical ones that came before in the report you get all of them as a city you get all of them all of our considerations those are a part of our appendix so you have access to the many different versions that we've worked through and you'll have an opportunity there's a moment hopefully on a beach or a cabin somewhere where you get to sit and read the report um and there will be a time when you're each drawn to different aspects of some of those previously discarded options and that can be a moment when in the sidelines in the sidebar you make a note i like how this one does this i like how this one does that so that when this transitions to its next future phase which we would recommend as a pre-design which is a really valuable type of project which allows you to better understand exact needs and exact costs and exact plan before you proceed that would be the moment where you really decide are we committing to this for the next 20 years or is this the time to make a more drastic change that that you can bring all of those best ofs to the table and give them to your team and say we like all of these from all of these please go make it happen right our teams enjoy that we love the challenge we rise to it so just just if that helps to know none of the notes disappear even as we move from this version to a next one this version will exist will be archived as a reference point for a moment in time alongside these considerations okay please proceed thank you very much so we've covered this a bit in different ways it becomes kind of striking in this note which is that for city hall and here i am specifically talking about city hall the projected program requirements if you were building this right brand new idealized efficient would be a 53 000 square foot building the amount of addition that we are recommending takes the city hall footprint to 61 000 square feet and you think to yourself well that's a lot of extra space and what i would remind you is that difference between the idealized efficient one story and what we see and i think garrett you just just came back to this when we have to fit it in to a two-story building when we are trying in whatever way feels appropriate to keep some aspects of the building existing there are some inefficiencies what i will note is that in an earlier scheme when we came to this footprint which is again that extruded same same volume simple walls it allowed us the capacity to accommodate um about 4 200 square feet of police training program and so while that difference looks large it actually allowed us and that was one of the flags and the moments where we said can we make it work another key and we we didn't really come to this but it's part of how we got to the size of the footprint that we're at was the goal that we heard from administrative departments specifically the service oriented ones that it was valuable to have them on one level so that you are both near and adjacent to the departments that you work with but also that you are more readily at hand to meet with the public and so from the size that you are now you needed a certain growth for us to fit all of those departments at one level i will acknowledge we do still have as it happens i.t is the department which is located at the lower level and facilities at the lower level because those are not directly service oriented there was a little bit of a benefit there's also a benefit for instance for facilities to be located adjacent to the receiving area and for it to be adjacent to the server room and so that those elements exist at the lower level it's used to being in caves you know i mean let's be real i can't argue yeah they do get some daylight in windows for the first time in this option though however i will note cover those [Laughter] yeah yeah so um moving ahead knowing that we have kind of two facilities to talk about although we've covered a lot of youth relative to police and we'll hear some connections more that take us back to that question of staff space we believe that and i will say specifically through the lens of using continuing to use this building and adapting the site in the building that is the lens through which we believe that we are able to demonstrate that it is possible um to reuse that we can meet space needs we can meet your other guiding principles the place where we put the caution is if you were to proceed you are getting yourselves to a 20-year mark and we believe that that might hit the limits of capacity uh and that is just sort of something to be aware of and to consider when you consider your next steps kind of coming out of this project and any other considerations or explorations that you that you might want specific questions about the kind of evaluation here at the end i know we've had a lot of useful questions and dialogue about the spaces themselves um any other consideration about our kind of evaluation at this point no i think we just need to make sure that we continue to move forward and then to give you some direction i don't want to drag this not that it's been drug on but it when we when you talk about hitting capacity i mean that's kind of been my concern about this entire project is this is going to get us you know 10 more yards and then we're going to be back doing this again potentially obviously things need to continue to be refreshed and updated and things like that but if this potential plan were to proceed i mean is that a that's a pretty firm 15 to 20 year cap and then from there you're talking about building new or going up thank you member council member workman useful question i would say that with the organizational analysis and the kind of parallel review of staffing that our teams did um with the exception of a dramatic unforeseeable change in operations you really are looking at the 20-year timeline right it isn't 15 it's 20 if that helps one of the questions that arose early on is can we go up yeah that's what i and from a structural standpoint our engineers and we have structural engineers on staff the review was that the existing columns foundations and roof structure do not have that capacity as our cost estimators will note and you know a line that often comes is you can do anything if you put money at it and so that could be a consideration that you may want to explore through pricing if if moving to multi-level now i will say there continues to be an ever greater understanding of the challenges of administrative facilities that go multi-level right it's harder to stay connected to people it's potentially a little bit more complex to manage safety it's efficient and effective to work within a footprint and so that was something that our our team didn't look further into because if you were to go up you would be needing to increase the weight bearing capacity of your footings and your foundations and so that would involve opening up your lower level slab it would involve strengthening columns provi and i'm paraphrasing please chime in tim if i'm not getting this right right additional beams and it would be a replacement of the roof structure so that would be a way to gain a greater amount of capacity on the site if and again if we talk about this from the standpoint of either policies or priorities if it was important to stay here i just i worry about putting the next generation of municipal government workers and elected officials in a spot where they're having to be challenged i mean we've seen that happen in burnsville a few times with you know garbage dumps on the river and things that seemed like a good idea at the time but now you know 50 60 years later you scratch your head and go why did they do that so is this plan viable to get the next group of because i don't think any of us will be in that room in 30 years maybe some of us but you're and i think it comes back to maybe one thing i touched on at the gravel still depends on how bionic you all are uh uh i won't something i touched on earlier which is um 20 years puts you at a place that turns it not into a decision where we can make a recommendation so much but more so that you have to make that decision for yourselves if we were hitting the 15-year mark really firmly and we'll come to it with police which is i think that's a place where the question opens a little bit more um with city hall um if you're at 20 if you're not at 15 if you're not hitting it at 10 or at 5. you have to explore that and it's within that context of well what are the other options are there other options um and certainly there was a conversation uh i can't remember which person chimed in about it you could stay on this site and you could clear cut it and you could rebuild here if you like this location if it works if it's beneficial there could be a moment where you look in big ways there's also some adjacent property here right do you do you take a look at puzzle pieces of a couple other facilities that we haven't talked about that is a consideration really to look into you are correct that at that 20-year mark it's a really sort of fascinating question of are you comfortable with that potential reaching of capacity are you comfortable with that potential risk of needing to make decisions at that timeline well that's why when we started the conversation it kind of was played like a joke about tearing down the shop and building new but if we're at 75 percent and we're running into the remaining 25 at some point that conversation needs to become more realistic that's a conversation in terms of expansion uh and then you're going to have to take a look at how we marry all of that with the maintenance center these are all policy questions that have implications but right now it's what do we do today do we have ability and opportunities with other areas within this campus yes we do but that means demolition and it means other things but i think that's an opportunity for staff to dig into that and to also take a look and see what our financial capacity is yeah cara so you kind of looked into well what if we'd do three levels on the whole thing what if you're looking at three levels on the addition in the back so and i assume you looked at that so what was the feedback on that so we did not look at taking the just the sliver of addition to three because there wasn't a functional value in that way you would add a second elevator to the building you would potentially and i we would have to look into the egress um add another uh set of egress stairs um and so while while it's approximately 8 600 square feet per floor as a sliver of space it's not particularly functional or useful on its own by the time you add at least two bathrooms on that level we are allowed to go down to another level but that right so at that scale it just almost isn't big enough to raise only that piece uh three feet when you ask the question what's the cost benefit okay uh we will yes we will keep moving this forward um what i would also note and we've come into this i think actually as a group here tonight which is what assumptions are we questioning and what assumptions have we forgotten to open the blue on and which ones are we comfortable opening the door on right as our team moved along we've become a part of the process we've heard from the department of voices that carries us forwards some of these questions like is it okay to tear down maintenance is a question if you want to stay here on site what i might simply ask you is what assumptions haven't you questioned and you might each have different answers to that so i will just plant that as a seed we are now looking here at police this is the main level and what i will say and this goes back to i don't want to open old wounds what we looked at is that actually in police through simply understanding who uses which spaces and providing that red outlined addition we actually think that you can keep a fair number of the walls and the rooms within police and only strategically renovate certain areas in ways that allow us to meet that capacity of needs so as we looked at the available space versus the program we needed to foot in put in pardon me we prioritized the personnel space for every single department investigations control records community engagement and administration we 100 actually meet the full gross square footage for each program department you'll say well what did you give up well we sacrificed at least in this plan some of the growth of the vehicle storage and the associated support space some of the general building storage has been smaller and that's where we also reached a point where police needed to take up a little bit more space here in the building but when we looked at it from a priority standpoint we were prioritizing staff in this if that answers the earlier question from a little long ago councilmember workman and so what you're seeing is uh some reconfiguration of existing spaces keeping the renovated lobby and the associated interview rooms no changes recommended there no changes recommended in the holding area so when we look at the cost of this specific renovation at a cost per square foot it's slightly lower because of the number of spaces that have been maintained moving into the lower level what i would like to acknowledge is that one of the pieces that we as of tonight haven't yet accommodated was any increase in the gun range in terms of its operating size or an increase in the gun cleaning and the armory space we believe that we can continue the conversation with the chief and we may have an opportunity even if the gun range stays the same size to provide a measure of increase for the armory and the gun cleaning uh michael has some thoughts we were talking about it just before this this session and we did have a conversation already even with our cost estimator if you were to expand the gun range um there is a possibility for it um that for us if it makes sense should i share some information on that sure absolutely we just talked about transparency here is the right answer thank you yeah i was testing him i was testing him um so this would be this is a lower level gun range so it's below the earth if we were to expand it we would add ranges to the right so as you'd see it would become closer to that curved space which is currently fitness and we would provide a connection between the lanes but we wouldn't fully open up that foundation this is a case where um council member schultz we would recommend if you expanded the gun range at this level go ahead and expand administrative space at the upper level there as well okay that cost um just coming out of a very quick conversation tonight again as our team continues to work live would be somewhere and for the gun range only would be somewhere between 1.7 and 1.9 million as an ad in today's dollars in today's dollars correct and that was for construction only that's construction only and project costs typically add about 30 percent what i would acknowledge is because of the priorities identified for police you are not likely to pursue that as a stand-alone project if you were going to do it it would be part of the renovation of police so i would i think it is not infeasible to consider that your project costs would be a part of the total project costs for a police rental rather than thinking of them as two distinct projects and i would always turn to our chief and ask the question is this something what she thinks about the addition madam mayor members of council this has just been like kind of most recent conversation so yes i believe that it was my um direction and conversation that if we are looking to the future of what this building is going to be able to do for us as we train and we do look at the future uh we have already outgrown that space okay so to functionally do training and with the amount of people that we do training we it's very difficult right now and and we're grateful for the space that we have but if we're looking at how do we expand in the future yes we would look at expanding the lanes and expanding the space for as we add people we're going to need more space for armory more space for weapons more space for gun cleaning and so that entire space would also have to increase especially as we're looking at adding staff so from a policy perspective then if this is what's needed as we move to the future then we proceed with that functionality you're okay with that yeah kara to me this draws into question what vince has been asking on are we getting to a point where renovation is no longer making sense councilmember schultz i i i would pose the same questions i'm like adding numbers in my hand um i would pose the same question and then again i i saw three nods of the heads around the table um if we were to further explore meeting every operational need and that's the direction that the council were to give us tonight i would want to go back and be a little bit more creative than the the operating assumptions of this current needs assessment i would like to wrap this needs assessment up and then i would i would like to under the advice of not only our expert staff but our consulting partners identify what the appropriate next steps would be um put that back in front of you to to affirm that we're going in the right direction and and explore some different options and try to cost some of those out to give you the best information to make that decision yeah because because i just want to make sure that okay so we're looking at this and it's okay this is a need not a want like that's the category it's being placed in then does does the amount of needs that we have and i'm sure you know we're going to hear some others as well does that start to tip it past and to get back to vince's question are we now no longer at a renault then we get at cost and we just did police for in 2018 and oh and um so this becomes uh a political question with the community and coming back to us and saying what does h are you guys doing so the thing is what is it that we need to do to i'm looking at your and what you're telling us this is going to cost us uh and if we're going to build anew what does that mean and then what do we you know yeah we'll we can expand out uh city hall to police but this is there's no easy way there's no you're struggling with the thing is we have a site that we have we have opportunities if there's going to be growth 20 years from now on this site but it give us an opportunity to start to look at some of that stuff prepare the community for what that cost is going to be in the future because the people who are living here now are not going to be the people who are going to be here 15 and 20 years from now but if we prepare for the future and what are the possibilities and the opportunities and they're part of the conversation as we continue to move forward then it's not going to be a surprise they understand so for me it it it's weighing all of those factors where we are today what we need to do today and what we need to do in the future and how much is it you know the capacity to pay for it oh yeah absolutely now when you're saying meet all operational needs could you give me your definition of what that means they said we won't meet everything about 85 did you say we'd meet uh madam mayor no i i i was suggesting that this study will get us to about an 85 to 90 percent of understanding of what the costs are where spaces could be and things like that we've we've kind of highlighted throughout a number of slides where some of the deficiencies will remain whether it's in police indoor parking or we'll see later on with maintenance facility deficiencies and whatever but i'll turn it back over to susan if you will because the question is like the policy question is are we in agreement or not agreement that we should meet all operational needs and my thought on that is i i don't think that that's possible yeah well okay it's possible if we don't have a food forest but we have money trees then it is possible um so get some of those thanks [Music] yes thank you in order to find grants but um but for me looking at it from a policy position i i don't think with the other constraints that we have it's going to be possible so it's going to be shuffling which ones you know i mean everything is a trade-off right yeah um so that's that's my view on that particular policy question yeah yeah and i think greg and your opening remarks you said that today we're going to be looking at everything but to even think about the results of this study and then moving to beginning design work and so forth that we might get at 95 percent of the needs we might but we're not going to get it a hundred percent to your point um into vince's earlier question um i believe that this building has been well maintained that there's been a high level of stewardship and that that renovating and expanding it from an operational perspective going back to all of our guiding principles is the right direction for now um i said another way i don't know that it would be responsible to tear this building down and suggest to the community that we start over um not everything about the police project is broken we've identified that there are some challenges it was done well to to the needs in 2018 at the time and within the confines of the reality that we found ourselves in it's great space i enjoy being over there i hear from our officers and our command staff that they enjoy it as well that operationally it's a good thing tanya and i have talked about that as recently as this weekend um is there will always be a give and take of of retrofitting and renovating existing space or trying to expand it there will be a difference between that experience and what we did with fire station one yeah they're just they're just right yeah and garrett said to me the best i was in my medical leave recovery sitting on my front porch talking to him last week and i think he said it best to me when when it really is an apples to oranges comparison between those two projects we're doing our best to learn from what went well what didn't and try to bring it together here and i do think that that what's being put in front of you right now is very reflective of kind of the the best case of where we're at yeah and i would also say to answer the the broader question i think we can meet the vast majority of our operational needs on this site is it going to be perfect no it probably won't be is it going to be responsible and meet our guiding principles absolutely yep thank you that's clear okay thank you very much susan uh a few more things um council and and madam mayor as we as we move along so what you're seeing here is a one of the more simple diagrams which is expanding the garage in the direction that you already have it this allows us to add about 20 more spaces and some additional garage space as has been noted by our team this is an area where because of topography and some known issues with drainage this would really need to be solved and worked on by a civil engineer worked on with folks to really understand how can we make this work and i think what's important which is while this edition helps address your enclosed parking needs one of the bigger constraints with police is a lack of developable space for any additional surface parking and surface parking within the secured area is a program and a functional requirement and so as we look at maybe some deficiencies and constraints i would just say that with police it is not just in the building it is actually also with the site so um again a similar kind of summary here which is that um projected space needs are about 75 000 square feet what i will also note about a program number like this is that it is it is an on paper tabulation so if you need eight offices you get eight offices then there's a little bit of a grossing factor there is an ability when you start to fit these pieces together for the amount of additional gross that you need to be smaller so you can be a little bit more efficient so for instance when we say that the actual provided program space is 62 000 square feet the direct deficiency in functional program um is not 13 000 the direct efficiency is a slightly smaller subset therefore i know that's a little bit splitting hairs but if it contextualizes the kind of on paper number versus the diagram that would be important to remember as i mentioned the prioritization that the team has led with to date was to prioritize space for staff and for training and for workspace the facility and the site are at capacity we will not and this is not a case of at 20 it is at a case of whenever the project is implemented we will not be able to meet the full needs for covered parking and uncovered parking and storage and when do we hit that point like immediately that is as as soon as you would make any renovation you are going to move the dial forwards from where you are um but you will not be able to meet capacity and so that's that that's a kind of day one uh challenge with with those aspects of the program can i ask our chief of question uh vince we're short now correct for our squads in the garage by do you know about how many sent everything i off the top of my head i don't we don't we don't have any of our i'm sorry council member we don't have any of our unmarks in terms of our responders such as investigators in the underground or in the covered storage what we try to keep in there is all of our mark squads which right now we can get them in but with adding staff they will not be able to fit and then we try to keep our behavioral health unit responder cars in that area and command staff so those that are going to respond out but we have investigators that work and respond out to calls so should be covered vehicle storage for them as well which we can't support right now yeah to maybe clarify number wise your current garage capacity and i won't get it exactly right i'm going to refer to it as the mid 30s our police expert couldn't be here tonight you're in the mid 30s for existing capacity we can add 20 spots that takes us somewhere into the 50s the fleet study and our analysis of program or that you will need at kind of the 20-year mark at least 60 spaces for covered parking so that's a deficiency of anywhere between five and ten covered parking spaces okay great as a reminder this is a reality of kind of the current assessment of needs again based on the council's direction um i would want to work with pd and whomever it is that continues uh our engineering or architecture towards the next steps of this this project be it bkb or whomever else and further explore yeah our opportunities on the site for today uh full transparency full disclosure this is the single biggest concern i have and i think the single biggest limitation that we've identified to this point and it would we would need to look at it more and it was my big concern at the very beginning of building out police and that we need to get to that and uh thank you greg i i also agree that you need to continue to work with police and whomever is going to be working with us to find the the opportunities here and get it fixed yeah i have a quick question and i'm not trying to draw you off of somewhere else but i guess i am a little bit what is the price per square foot of building a new building have you guys i mean good good question and i i may tap in and um tim for this so there is no one number i will say the number is different for city hall it is different for a police station than it is for a fire right and so there is no one that i could give you i know that our range is now if you want to um come over tim and chime in um i i think i know where what what tim's answer might be but we'll see from him let's hear it it's right he's part of this is tim makes his way i think it would be i think it would be good to hear from c h on this as well because to susan's point there are different price points per square foot between i understand there's different needs i mean i just look at apartment buildings i know what the apartments how they do it yeah yeah well this is a little different than apartment building this is this is the building that needs to be hard every version is bj's stuff is really expensive yeah it is yeah well and with police it it's a building that needs to be hardened yes absolutely yeah just to be brief uh my name is tim kittela i'm from cross anderson uh thank you for having us here tonight uh just to simply answer your question i you know for the range of buildings that we're looking at as far as the public works facility maintenance facility uh to uh uh police department to city hall we're talking in a range from anywhere from three hundred dollars a square foot to four hundred dollars a square foot down here yeah i was gonna say 375. not too shabby all right i'm out of here yeah and thank you for cross anderson helping us with the building of the police station pleasure is a as a joy to work on it uh jason redmiester his son's birthday is tonight he would be here instead because i looked around and i did not see jason yeah so jason says hello and uh and he it was a joy to work on that project that's what he tells me so yeah and i was real privileged so absolutely thank you no it's not but it's also something okay great other questions at this moment about police before we segway what remains in in our presentation we thank you for your engagement and also your patience is to share information about maintenance and then to come to cost which i know you folks have seen in your preview from my perspective from a policy perspective for for city hall and police is that you have given us information you've understood the policy question with regard to public spaces and the other is that um what we did in 2018 for police did not do everything that was needed because we didn't have the information to make good policy decisions around all of that so in this regard the policy statement and i hope my call colleagues agree with me is that we're going to fix it and so you've given us some numbers we're going to continue to work on that with our staff and we'll see where that takes us thank you very much for the consideration madam mayor and we appreciate as as the chief noted the the piece that's percolating that we will come back to is folding in the gun range expansion and the other supporting elements we will add that both to our diagrams and to our costs so that you have a whole picture of more fully meeting police's needs okay thank you i will say that garrett and i exchanged 25 versions of this slide um there's one error and it's on this one i think that we just missed um which is that efficient and effective should be listed as as fair we want to recognize and i think greg i appreciate your contextualization if we understand one of the directives of our project is to kind of test and validate the feasibility and the potential for this site in these buildings to host program we believe that we can not without not without qualifications but we there isn't a a function in police that isn't accommodated it might be accommodated at a smaller scale but all of the functions can be accommodated so for for both functional and flexible and for efficient and effective the facility is qualified because of its capacity limitations and because of that larger asterisk to not have the sufficient capacity for vehicle storage both indoors and out in other senses we do believe that the proposed renovation can more can add on to the strengths of the 2018 edition can continue to work with the facility can provide additional kind of training spaces that aren't currently accommodated i think really key here is we do believe we can accommodate the program components that increase officer and staff wellness and health and that is really critical for for mental and physical health as individuals and to support their resiliency to continue to provide services in the community i can't tell if i'm seeing any questions percolating uh no all right let's here we are so numbers-wise um and again this this gives a little bit of perspective i'm gonna go to the two bottom lines on paper the space program needs for city hall and police total to about 128 000 square feet between the two facilities we can offer 119 000 square feet so that allows and that helps you kind of understand some of those differences we do have the qualifications here that with a number of the site features there are limitations for ability to expand in any one direction okay we're going to take a break seven minutes and we'll be back we should have done that before it started okay welcome back everyone um we are back on the air susan complete your presentation please thank you very much we will move into a discussion of maintenance so that is on a separate site that's at your um i was about to call it forest hills that's your course starts with an f thank you very much ryan i appreciate that um so this facility and you're again similar to city hall and police has a mix of good poor and fair for the existing building the site does have capacity it is controlled right now the the facility and its renovations are simply from an earlier era of public works delivery so not not meeting the functional needs in quite the same way uh capacity wise and when we look at a maintenance facility the numbers are different because um a major portion of the facility is vehicles and so rather than a square footage for a staff member at a desk you're talking about the size for a piece of truck or equipment and so the deficiencies that we see are you know the existing and again what i'm going to refer to this and this comes into play with maintenance enclosed uh program space is 93 000 the recommended square footage is 173 thousand and that would allow us to meet and to address spaces for staff for vehicles and equipment utilizing industry best practices and i will note that that also is up to a point and up to the point of the capacity of the site uh that charts out at the kind of 20 20 year plus to about an 80 000 square foot deficiency when we look at the facility the diagram that you see and i will note our project team includes ortel architects they are public works specialists so they really live and breathe these kind of operations the needs the applicable regulations so they've been partnering and working directly with ryan and jeff and team on this work this diagram includes in this more solid colors footprints of existing buildings in the shaded colors those are either new additions or new or relocated items on site so we're looking at the the recommendation at the program standpoint is to add us about 72 000 square feet prior improvements can be prioritized right now one of the most critical needs is the administrative area so being able to add on to that would immediately address a pretty significant and you can see this it almost doubles and maybe slightly more than doubles in size the administrative area public works facilities in the past you didn't work in the same ways and there are simply more people in the way that you work in the way that you collaborate you need that workspace this allows the long-term recommendations allow critical equipment to be parked undercover during seasonal use you're hearing a couple of qualifiers in there which is there's a difference between under cover and in to be in a temperature controlled or a thermally controlled space so this is one step better than outdoors and open and during seasonal use um what we're still looking at is the need to use some off-site potential off-site solutions for for long-term equipment parking needs it is not uncommon although it does add a slight layer of inefficiency to utilize more than one site for public works because then staff have to rotate vehicles um typically it's seasonally so that you bring in the vehicles you're using um and the brown building right now for time and so that that would be something to consider here some of the additions and potential renovations are things that could be considered for instance improving the wash bay functionality this would meet current industry best practices in detail it's not currently a part of the study so there's been a lot of development and actually as the chief had noted about police similar is true for public works conversations are continuing and have really continued even in the last few days so the recommendations here continue to be refined so from a numbers standpoint the projected space needs are 173 000 and the adaptation of the site gets you to 162 000. this is a landlocked site right now there isn't capacity to increase outside of your current property boundaries what we would note is that again from the current square footage you are improving your functionality uh and in that varies with each of the parts of the operation you're really increasing it as it relates to administration you're providing a measure of improvements for vehicle storage if there were commitments to the long-term changes to things like the relocation of the fuel island and some of the additional salt storage you might also improve some of the site lay down and yard space but this is also one with a qualifier the site would be used to its maximum potential and you would be at capacity for your parking your yard and your open and your cold storage 22 years this is another you you would meet it which is day one day one um you will have some challenges now again what i would note with maintenance and i'm i'm gonna ask ryan to chime in is that the team has discussed the feasibility the benefit the value the possibility of to what extent could you phase maintenance and because there are different components there's an administrative office building there's a vehicle storage bay right these these objects are different different elements on site that is something you could consider if you needed to it is important to look at the long-term capacity of the site and simply acknowledge that it has a limit to how much it can provide and i don't know ryan if you want to chime in with additional context the building's worn out has really good bones it's the structure is really good from when they found it but it has worn out it's aged dramatically um everything from the carpets to the walls our humidity problem in there is um somewhat dramatic um we've had envelopes seal themselves uh during the summer time with with humanity problems so we have those challenges um what they're showing or what if we went back one slide i know we don't want to go backwards that would be such an incredible thing that you want us to address yeah um i know i talk in circles um the this would be such an incredible huge improvement over what we have now are this will allow for multiple conference rooms right now we have three groups i want to have a monday or a morning meeting every day and there's one conference room that will fit just one of the groups now we'd have enough conference space that they could go in and get things together and figured out all when they wanted to have it not based upon when his utility's gonna be in there and the streets can go in later what have you um and just the functionality would be greatly improved mr venable is an audience i pick on him a lot our technology aspects could be significantly enhanced start we just they just we're just way behind the times when it comes to that so could we um phase things of course we could um we really need to take care of the things that are to get the site just the existing building back up number one thing so we don't lose the building so we don't go from having good bones to not having good bones so we got to fix that first we really need the administrative work so we can do that more effectively the expansion you know if you go look at the new fire station there's a lot of space between the vehicles that are there right now we're just all packed in all the vehicles have gotten a lot bigger that expansion doesn't put many new many other vehicles actually under cover it gets closer to best management practices for spacing of vehicles if that makes sense so yes we may get a couple more there the original drawing showed that go all went all the way out to the parking stalls that are showing north and didn't even work we couldn't even get around the site so this is a nice hybrid version of what we could do to make our situation a lot better and um but yet are we 100 perfect no kind of the similar discussion last time yeah but um grammy compared to where we are now we could operate much more better and efficiently with a layout like this good information and it's to the point and so from a policy perspective as we look at the numbers and where we'll sequence the phasing of all of this it's just making sure that you get what you need for the next 10 15 20 years and every building we are in burnsville susan everybody needs to understand we're 27 square miles where we don't have any other land you know so when uh people say your land your site your landlord we are that's the reality of the environment we find ourselves in so uh where are we going to go get land like so [Laughter] yeah i like that you could do a hostile take out a lot aren't there some little townships we could just credit you want to do a night like station yeah we could just take credit river yeah so that is still let's talk about the reality of where we're at and where we need to go so you know and here we go that's it excellent i will preface this with i purposefully did not look at this section of background so that i could have the prior discussion without having that in my mind i did look at it so i'm going to look at you when it's given to you i'm going to throw up all right let's do it the band-aid we're getting to the point where everybody is getting punchy yes so which is the fun point um we are looking at a page here that has two kinds of numbers the top numbers are what we would include and recommend that you include in continued capital improvement plannings as part of your regular planning so this is um you know about 10 years or so um so those are if you decided not to do any renovations this is just from our team's detailed assessment of the buildings things that are cracked broken end of life about to die should be renewed should be refreshed this is a baseline number for each set of facilities and and we're grouping here that that essentially would be your what i'm referring to as your do nothing scenario so if you if you made no other changes to the building we are simply helping affirming your capital improvements um planning for the next few years so that's the eight point four million for city hall and police um 8.9 which really rounds just about to 9.0 for maintenance what i will say is again because those are almost a do-nothing scenario those do include an understanding as you would in any capital improvement plan that you would anticipate some modest interior renovations over time refreshing a bathroom changing an open workstation into an office so a component of those costs includes that the numbers at the bottom are separate from the numbers above you don't add them all together they are separate the numbers at the bottom represent the costs for each of the color diagrams that you saw for the facilities that is if you were to invest in the facilities what we would note is that with something like city hall there's essentially a gut renovation which means your lights come down your mechanical comes down and so those costs are included and those are things then that that's why we don't add these two numbers together because those costs there's there's that same scope lives in the different buckets in different ways when we take a look at a construction cost 22 million for city hall and police so that's two facilities each with new construction and different degrees of interior renovation a couple of limited areas in police where we would use the term gut renovation whereas in city hall you're looking at a fair amount of gut renovation work because of the rather significant reconfiguration of spaces the construction cost is the cost to build that is a 2022 cost we have a slide just after this that escalates that number into the future in studies like this we we often provide both the construction cost and the estimated total project cost the total project cost and that is um sometimes we call that the hard cost and the soft cost the hard cost is the cost to build the building the soft cost is everything else it's it's permits it's professional services for design and engineering fees it's some test boring hazardous materials removal if that's necessary at a facility um all of that is part of your soft costs sometimes in a study we just use a percentage it tends to live in the kind of 30 to 35 percent range in this study because of the detailed conversations we've had with department and staff including tom and it this actually is what i would say is a an informed project cost so we have line items for technology upgrades for security upgrades and that is based on our understanding and our conversation about specific needs so for city hall and police the total project cost in 2022. is 29.8 million for maintenance your total project cost would be 19.5 million and again those those numbers are distinct between the improvement costs and what i would refer to as a capital project cost now what's important is that those numbers that i just mentioned 29.8 and the 19.5 those are today that would be if you were going out to bid now you're not going to be able to go out to bid now you haven't gone through the design process you don't even know yet if it's appropriate to pursue any of the recommendations that that we've put forward so the earliest in all likelihood if you were going to pursue it would be the 2023 costs that's aggressive that would require some decision making but that would be the first number i would look at so for city hall and police that's 32.2 for maintenance that's 21. we've heard before and i think madam mayor you rattled off the percentages absolutely appropriately right now escalation in construction we use the word escalation it's also the word inflation we use escalation because it ramps our numbers up in this volatile market we are seeing everything from 4 to 6 to 13 to 15 to 16. because it changes by project by week by month it's not appropriate for us to use the highest number so the cross anderson team has used an eight percent escalation from 2022 to 2023 because we're still continuing to rebound from the pandemic and we believe it's going to take the industry certainly more than 12 months to rebound the escalation between 2023 and 2024 is at 6 percent now again it could swing if we continue to have challenges those numbers could change over time and i think this is what over the last 50 years right the historical average of escalation is four percent and so when we come to that difference between 2024 and 2029 that's at four percent per year and a reminder and the reason why you see the numbers jump is that that's a compounded value and so important to realize that that is compounded every year and we use escalation as a protection for an increase in market and labor costs and so that's how we arrive at these numbers we've covered so much ground you may not have questions yet but i imagine with this group that there may be a few so i open the floor no we know what the numbers are hey dan madam mayor may i may i add that this does not include our discussion about the gun range for example which we heard that we i we heard that and you're going to work through all of that but we'll get this updated before the final right now it's good for our people to understand what this cost is going to be and then the thing is what we need to listen to is what's going to happen with fire station 2 and then we need to give you some direction as to which of the priority items to work on right away that'll get us to thank you for looking at the next step okay yes cara well and part of our consideration that we will need to look at is which yes we're going to be getting to fire station 2 so we'll get that information so looking at this phase 3 proposal in in the different sections looking at fire station 2 but we are also looking at a significant staffing increase and what that does as well so when we're looking at all of this it's it's not just one thing it's looking at all three of those sections absolutely and what that does to our like what are our residents going to pay in increases yeah well with our facilities there's not the rate is the same it's looking at how how much how we're going to bond and how we're going to manage that cost because i'm looking at that it's 50 some but let's look and see what what are the priorities to move forward so we're not going to do all of it and then greg and staff are going to have to come back and tell us whether we have the capacity because it's not going to come out of our levy it's going to be paid for through all facilities through the utilities fund right but the money has to come from somewhere and there's only one place that can come from i mean we can get it from them in different ways yeah but it's you know how do we we're still reaching in a pocket yeah right so we you know we need to have a full picture of what that looks like and and we can and that's when we can say you know uh what are the price what's the priority project then send staff back to come back and say here's how we're going to address it and then we get a the next picture in terms of moving forward and all of that yeah because you know and i know residents like that will be a number one question they have which is you have different funding mechanisms and different ways of leveraging debt and that type of thing but what does that what does that mean to my personal finances so i'm just giving staff the heads up that you know that will be a question of you know that that we'll need to have that answer for for our residents so thank you i appreciate that good thank you very much thank you mayor yeah thank you okay very good job susan yeah fire station two very i think that's cnh you're up uh once again thank you it's good to see you guys back at the table thank you uh council and thank you susan and the rest of the bkb team for your presentation tonight we are moving on to the phase three facility space study as it relates to the fire station number two and uh joining us tonight from cnh is quinn hudson and brooke jacobson and uh i'm going to immediately turn it over to you okay thank you garrett and good evening mayor and council we are excited to be here tonight tonight excuse me and uh look forward to telling you about our portion of the studies tonight as you know uh we went through you know the similar process we mentioned before a lot of time spent with staff uh evaluating uh in what our goals were and what and where their needs might be we look to the site and building value ordinances and of course look at best practices and standards and things much as we had did with the station one so with that all right hit the right button um so just briefly that building is done from late 80s uh 34 years old and it's 13 500 square feet with uh specifically six small single uh depth back drive areas so at this point i'm going to have brooke cover some of the existing facilities studies and we'll come back and i'll look at what some of the answers might be okay welcome boo thank you good evening mayor council members and staff um so on on the screen now is the list of the guiding principles which you've heard about all night these were developed when we did the station one project they're a fantastic resource that we worked through throughout that project and one that we keep coming back to throughout the all the phases of this project as well we're showing them in a slightly different order they're all important some just have more impact when it comes to the fire station so we're kind of going through in that order so the first one up is healthy i won't read through them all i'll just kind of point out a few things um some of that kind of the larger items of impact it's not the current station is not meeting the carcinogen separation in several ways so we don't have good transitions between our what we call our hot and our cold zones so the apparatus space opens right up into the firefighter workroom that space that they go in and out of constantly is completely open to the kitchen the grey room and the dorm so very unhealthy um as the carcinogens easily move through that space uh the filtration units in the app bays are are not effective at this time and there's no vehicle exhaust system the prime event which you saw at station one and uh some other instances uh the ems decon for instance is uh in the same room as the red residential laundry so you're getting that cross-contamination in that space moving on to functional and flexible so when we went through and and did the programming we looked at everything that they would need to meet the operational needs as well as industry standards and what that came down to is we had a shortage in the existing facility of 22 650 square feet so not only are we not meeting our current needs but it also doesn't allow for any future needs and growth um and as you can see kind of in that photo on there we have storage and with decon spaces everything's kind of crammed in and it's just not flexible in their their regular operational day-to-day usage on the safe side of things uh we currently don't meet the nfpa station standards design standards excuse me again you can see in that photo we don't have good clearance around the apparatus so we're super close to that front door they can barely move they have just enough room to barely get through from bay to bay the apparatus are parked side by side and they can't open the doors at the same time and they also don't have drive-through bays which becomes a huge safety factor and unfortunately due to the size of the site and the location of the building there's just no other way to get around that and then there's no separation for apparatus and private traffic so right now the majority of the parking is on the east side of the building that's public and firefighters so that can cause some issues there except for two stalls that are directly in front of the apparatus it's not a welcoming entrance and yeah i will get to this the old fire station one where is the entrance the same thing over too right people don't really know where to go when they come to park and you could easily get in the way of the firefighters trying to respond so the next scanning principle is efficient and effective so the current building has a very high energy use um the due to the older inefficient mechanical systems um and the thermal value of the building it's just it's it's was built in a different time excuse me the functions are spread out um in different rooms so they're not you know there's not an area that's specifically set for decontamination it's kind of in multiple rooms and then it's combined with other functions and so it's just a very inefficient operational flow for for staff so moving on to sustain a bill we're currently not meeting the current lead strategies due to what you saw in the previous slide but the high energy use and the inefficient systems we we can't really meet any low efficiency mechanical systems in the building there's really no room on site to deal with any storm water treatment and then there's very poor indoor air quality due to those ineffective air filters the lack of a vehicle tailpipe exhaust system things of that nature so moving on to fiscally responsible um some of the keys here so it's just if after we looked at the building the existing facility talked to the department went through all the needs it's just not uh economically viable to remodel and expand part of that is the first thing the apparatus phase which is kind of the large portion of the structure we just can't fit everything in there safely in meeting design standards so in order to meet those design standards we would have to widen and lengthen the apparatus space which doesn't work with you know the current bearing walls that are there which means we're adding in new columns which get in the way of things um and just make it harder to function in there it's also the much like the other project mentioned uh to go to a second story on the existing building is just not viable with the existing structure it wasn't built for that doesn't have the capacity to hold that and then to even meet the full needs of the program on the space the entire building would have to move forward on the site there's just currently no room right now to even expand the building at its current location and then as you mentioned madame mayor well uh welcoming to the community uh you said the the entrance to the building is on the west side of the building and the main parking is on the east side of the building except for one handicap stall and one i think one regular stall which is right in front but they they're not even you can't even see the entrance from those stalls as well so uh it's really you have to park on a street and then it's just because of where everything is located it's it's just very confusing to the public and unsafe in that matter too so just uh in conclusions um so you know based on the guiding principles we just went through there's just definitely significant shortcomings in pretty much every category across the board and then when we were compiling the program we identified that you know that 22 600 square foot shortfall which means that the current station is literally less than half the size it it needs to be for them to be fully operational functional safe healthy all those items and then just due to the existing structure and positioning of the building on sites it you know the addition any just a district additionally and remodeling just as not physically and financially feasible okay let me turn it back to queen yeah thank you so obviously from that we've kind of identified through the study process that a additional model just doesn't make sense at the location so we looked at what are the next steps instead and so we came up with two options to investigate tonight and one is to tear down the existing building and rebuild on that existing sites so that's one thing we'll look at and we'll talk about as an option and then the second option would be to relocate to some unidentified site where that was not part of the study but to develop a site that would be available within the right response district and then have that more idealized site to build on as well so we'll look at both so first of all just as a recap of the square footages uh the current building 13529 so on the two options rebuilding on the existing site we can see we throw 33 920 that is absolutely maximizing the site we'll talk about that in the next thing but that is as big as we can get with that approach uh where if we use more of a guiding principles you know ideal site the building would be slightly larger not a whole lot but you know there we're showing at 34 000 um 785 so just a little bit bigger building so first we're looking at the existing site option so if we were to rebuild on site and have a site plan next but we would this is what would fit and how that might happen uh we're showing in orange apparatus bays the gold is the decon support in between with the green is the operation space behind that so it again it needs me because of the width of the site and again i'll look at the next image uh the apparatus basically takes the whole front of the building uh there's no way to put any side by side create entrance in a different way second floor in this approach would provide have a uh opportunity to have all the residential elements on that second floor over the top of the operation items and then some training activities in the gray in between looking at that on the site and how that fits uh it's a little hard to see in color but there is a building setback line that we're addressing we're to the edge of the building set back on every line except for the parking is and we can't get any closer and get parking in so it's showing that we are maximizing this site uh with this approach uh the other things that we and it's and it's meeting and but to be clear it is meeting primary needs there's some things that are on the on the goals that weren't quite meeting and then we'll look at that you know later but it is meeting primary needs uh um so is an option for that we are able to separate the apparatus flow and parking but we aren't able to separate the firefighter parking and public parking that would be in the same parking lot on the on the east side or right side of the site uh we also have the apparatus straight like we do in fire station i i don't see it yeah they have to back they would have to back in that was my next uh bullet point is that the apparatus would have to back in and not only went at the back end they had to back in actually using 122nd street so there is a safety concern with doing it off of that so um then there's no one i think we don't have and then we're saying we're creating primary items but we're not getting additional public space as an option and then of course entrance is still going to be more obscured it's not as direct as it as we would like to see it and it's welcoming so there are definitely some some impacts of this that we'll go through switching to looking at a unidentified but a relocation site there we would organize much more like station one is where we have the apparatus bays along the side and then to the adjacent to that we would have operational space and a public entry we've dashed in a little red dashed line showing that there are opportunities as an option to add some more public space where there's more meeting space things that can be used by others other than the fire station um not you know that and that is really looked as an option but that just showing with this approach with the x with the site that would be possible absolutely not possible on the other side uh looking at second floor again residential wing would be over the top of the operations and it has been training over the top of decon what a site might look like and this is showing a minimum site you know the site could be larger and fit depending on site usage if we had a ideal site where it's it's flat not no wetlands none of those things you know this would be the you know the size of the site and this is about a slightly over a three acre uh our parcel as a comparison the existing site is 1.68 acres so there's ideally we'd want to have almost double of what the current site is this would allow for uh full pull through um apparatus bays uh firefighter parking separated in the back public parking up front uh a very direct entrance things like that so real quick can i just interject um just between the two because we didn't quite talk about it but on the existing station uh they would temporarily have to relocate to be able to physically tear down that building and build a new building whereas on the relocation site they could still operate out of that existing station while the new one is being built and then move once it's once complete just like we did with fire station one correct and that's a very significant variant thank you for reminding me to bring that up yeah for sure because that is something and we did build that into the cost of of that option but even at that it would be a very uh limited temporary site so we can expand upon that when we get to cost yeah so again comparing based on the guiding principles how do each of these you know check out and so going through unhealthy obviously if both both cases were building new so we would have the opportunity to build in a lot of the uh health requirements the one spot that we're not quite making it is exterior open landscape space because on the existing site we're just short of space looking next on function functional and flexible existing site is making many of the other goals obviously the relocation site makes them all there's a few shortcomings both on operational during construction which again as brook was pointing out is a significant functional impact you know it's something they could work through but it is not ideal secondary operations meaning there's a few things that we aren't being able to get on the other side on existing sites that would be a compromise and then obviously there's no opportunity for future growth on the reuse of the existing site safe safe workspace and live yes we would meet nfpa standards and best design yes we would definitely do that um but there would be some um trade-offs on the existing site for both the back-end which is significant uh not as safe to back in off of that and then also the mixing of the firefighter parking and public parking is just not a deal as well on the safety side effective and efficient uh here there's significant shortcomings on the existing site because to fit all the things that we show in that one rectangular box we have to make some compromise with uh the shapes and the orientations of the spaces to fit what's there we can't do ideal proportions ideal relationships again because we're limited on size so yeah an existing site does not meet many of those guiding principles sustainable in all cases it'd be a new building we would be meeting all sustainable guidelines in that sense welcome to the community significant short fallings on the existing side again because of the inability to really bring a nice front entrance create that common space and of course have the option for more public uh space and that none of those are available in existing of course on relocation it would be a possibility fiscally responsible so here we're looking at prices um as we talked about previously we we broke it out into hard cost soft costs um and then temporary facility costs under the existing site so that that 661 000 that's shown there represents both uh rental of some existing building within the right portion of the city as well as some some remodeling to make that work as a fire station and so there's it's it's reduced number of apparatus it's it's reduced number of spaces you know some of the decon would happen at station one rather than here during construction but it it's it's kind of the minimum approach because it's a short-term use so that gets us to 20.45 million with that approach and those are those are 2023 numbers that would be not today that would be next year at the point which you could go out for bids on the relocation site hard costs are just a little bit higher soft costs are you know a little bit lower and there is no temporary facility costs but on the end you're 20.14 million ultimately they aren't all that far apart so cost really isn't the big driving comparison here it's really some of the things that lead to uh the difference between the site footnotes there are important neither of these costs address land or what do you do with existing building if you move to that relocated site um we evaluated you know what that might mean land would be somewhere between existing you know so we have we have swap or purchase on the uh you know reuse for opera purchase i should say so from the reuse side obviously there's no land cost to that um on the you'll swap that might also be what are you trading off within the city maybe little or some cost to that and then for you to purchase all new property something in the 1.5 million for that so there's some variety of costs on that that would be dependent on your feedback from there there's also existing building if you're if you do go to a relocation site you have an existing building you can either sell it uh demolish it and sell the property or reuse it for another function and so those are all choices that would be brought back as possibilities there's some value to that in the end all those choices together are still a smaller fraction of the total cost of the project real i don't mean it that way but it's not not something you would decide based on solely you really you know the bigger decisions are how are we meeting those guiding principles so with that i also have inflated numbers just to see what the future would bring uh so we're starting with the 2023 number that we showed there that and i'm using the relocation option uh so that's 20.14 uh yeah the year after uh inflating it that same six percent that we've been talking about we all kind of agree those are appropriate numbers we're looking at now and that would be 21.35 million and then in 2029 that's just short of 30 million so recommendations between the two from that first of all we definitely strongly recommend that the current building is not expandable it's just not a good choice to get close to meeting the goals between the two reuse of existing site and relocation site we feel that you're gaining so many more of the goals and indicated and gutting principles at really about the same cost we feel that that is the best value and makes the most sense long term for the city so that's our recommendation with that any questions well no questions but i'll just remind everyone and our staff when we started to talk about fire station two one of the things that i had asked staff to perhaps take a look at because there is no land available is parkland whether we have parkland that we might use and do a swap so what so that's one thing because we all understood and i'll remind everybody that when we looked at fire station 2 we understood that it was a site that we can't do what we need to do for the future it's just not functioned so with that members of the council as we look at the facilities i would recommend that we direct staff to look at city hall and police and come back with more information for us as we look to the future and then to look at maintenance and fire station 2 and do some more work around that because i understand that we need to do some more work around all of that but i would say that the priority and i'd like your support on this is to look at city hall and police as the phasing to be the priority to move forward and then you can do the research for fire station 2 and also take a look at the expansion for the maintenance building and that will come back members of the council your thoughts could i could i rephrase to make sure that i understand what you're saying so your your proposal is that we look at the remodel and expansion of the maintenance facility and fire station two as our nearer term objectives and so we do more development on those two and that city hall and police are to be looked at further in the future no no right now city hall okay good that i rephrase that because i'm making sure i understand it's the priority city hall and police it's the priority is the priority and maintenance and fire station two are further in the future okay i had that reversed so good that i asked um however does that include because we were looking at in the maintenance facility the concern was that if we don't do about 9 million just on repairs that there will start to be like the building will start to become unusable i think that's some of the work that staff will need to bring back to us but i'm just saying the priority needs to be city hall and and police we have a lot of information for that for us to move forward and that and then fire station 2 and maintenance be the second on the priority list yes greg madame are members of the council uh councilmember schultz to your question um i would make no assumption uh um based on your previous direction that we wouldn't continue to plan to maintain the structural integrity and the good bones of the facilities that we currently have so [Music] let's let's say in an example that we say maintenance is your third priority we would continue to plan and our current plans already reflect uh maintaining the integrity of that facility and we certainly would prioritize continuing down the strong path that garrett and his team and others have prioritized in terms of taking care of our facilities so the sky's not falling on any of these facilities and we would continue to make sure that that's the case garrett i may regret this because i've been doing studies for the last however many years but would you be open to considering directing staff to move into a pre-designed study for we would wrap up this study make sure you have good information for the next step of a pre-designed study for city hall and police to really get into the final numbers simultaneously be doing something similar for the operational admin side of things at city hall to get really good numbers and understand what that looks like while bj and other staff are looking at what our land options are for a fire station and that could all be running simultaneously without any commitment to construction but refining that information do what we need to do to keep this moving um and and you all know how that needs to be done and chief use the excellent process that we did with fire station one and resulted to the product that we have that everybody uh you know agrees to and and have been uh everybody just thinks it was an excellent project so but yes um so council are you okay with fire going with this idea yeah and going with uh with city hall and and police continue playing on the other side if if i can ask our chief a question so on fire station two two uh how how is that functioning right now like looking at how it is right now how it's functioning that type of thing what if it is something that doesn't get to for five six years or however long so yeah mayor council members councilmember schultz uh it's a good question it it'll remain functional right we'll make it work um is it a best practice no does it meet all the health and safety requirements no does it does it have a lot of those best practice things that that make it functional for our staff it absolutely does not i think brooke did a good job of explaining how the carcinogens are making it from the apparatus bay into the living quarters and there is no place for them to shower in the bay frankly their their fire gear is stored in the apparatus bay right next to the exhaust there's no other place to put it um so we'll continue to operate in that in that method right so we just don't have any other thing we can do with it there's just no other place to go um and you also talk about functional we can't even put our ladder truck down there so if the engine down there breaks down we have to move the engine from station one down there because we can't move the ladder you know so from a functionality standpoint it really limits our ability to operate as efficiently as we could so will we make it work and respond every call that's out there absolutely our staff do a phenomenal job of making making things work um again i think someone else said the sky isn't falling right it works it's just not functional and safe to the best of our abilities and when you compare that to what we did with station one now you really can kind of see the the benchmarking or the difference between the the benchmarks there and is it healthy with all the carcinogens that they're breathing you know and and one of the things is that i do know how many of our firefighters have contracted cancer so i'm very aware of that health uh issue if if i may ask the similar question to our chief how is the functionality of the police station right now and how would that be for the next five or six years saying nothing changes right i mean we have a a good space a much better space in terms of functionality so our our i guess our biggest concern is just we we're already outgrown it so it's just a it says space needs actually for staff and as we're looking at adding staff we just we don't have any space for it but can we make it work and whatever yes that's what we've been doing um yeah and that's the wellness piece and the training so those are just things that weren't considered in the initial project that we did before that were now becoming that like okay we can't we're having trouble doing what we're doing but we don't have in terms of health in terms of like physical health we're okay that way okay if i if i may ask oh sorry did you if i may ask the same question of ryan but for maintenance my opinion is if we weren't if we were to delay there we need to figure out how we're going to budget and make the nine million dollars in the repairs so if we do a large project with expansion then we'd want to include a lot of those uh absolutely maintenance things at the same time yeah if it's going to be a while we should start figuring out and that might that is not in the facility budget right now many of those maybe 10 20 of that may be in the budget at this time but um the full-on cost of that is is not sitting waiting to be done if that makes sense yeah so if it's going to be pushed out then i think we need to figure out how to get some of those things done quickly or not quickly might be too straightforward but we need to start planning for them if we're going to do a big project then i think we could wrap it all into one yeah and i think you all need to bring that back to us and i would i would trust that uh greg you and our design team and everybody would do that work just like we've done with the other things but right now is that you all need priority and that's what um i am suggesting to my colleagues so that we can start the process of looking at the at the numbers and so forth and the design and if i may ask our city manager the same question but about city hall itself i would say that that the city hall project is highly dependent on police needs and i don't want that to be missed in tonight's discussion and i would i would also say that the the functionality and flexibility of city hall space is becoming challenging to realizing our strategic priority and our vision around being an employer of choice it doesn't mean that things are broken no but it is a it is an operational concern um all of what you've heard tonight and my view on these projects councilmember schultz kind of to your question to each of our department heads if you were to ask me what our priorities should be as a as a city organization uh i would tell you that we should immediately continue with with what garrett has has suggested that the pre-design on police in city hall would be my top operational priority followed followed by some good financial planning and operational planning around identifying potential land acquisition answering some of the questions around fire station 2 we're going to need some time on that i would also say that although maintenance is not necessarily my lowest pick or priority we have more work to do on that project and i think realistically we need a little bit more time on that one to best understand what the right plan forward might be for you so that's how i would that's how i would kind of order the priority from a organizational perspective okay i appreciate that you asked for all of our views this is how i'm looking at it and i i greatly appreciate that greg if we spend the 9 million to bring the maintenance facility not really changing much to it but that's basically that's throwing nine million away on a project that's 20 million you're raising your hand so what am i saying incorrectly yes thank you pardon me i just wanted to chime in the 9 million projected for capital improvements at public works is something that kraus anderson has looked at as a total amount spent over 10 years they have also prioritized those needs into priority ones which are critical deficiencies and known failures priorities two and three um i will have to come back to this but the priority one numbers are the pieces that we would recommend pursuing in a kind of zero to three year window i'll have to get back to you with that final number i believe it's um under three million but it is not nine million um just to address that use of the the value that that value was projected over time looking at when certain elements would reach end of life and that is not all in 2023 okay so that's over the over the 10 years 9 million is over the 10 years but looking at the first few years is is around 3 million so that's a smaller bite what i the situation i don't want to get in with with maintenance is what we're currently seeing with police right um fire to me fire station two i realized the challenges in in getting land use and that type of stuff um personally i see that as our highest priority because this is the safety and well-being of the people who work there it's not a functionality issue i mean there's functionality issues and there's functionality and issues with all of them but this is our only project that we're facing that is a health concern to the people that have to work there so that's just my my personal view of this is that and i'm fine with like going ahead and doing the study on all of it like i i think it should move forward um but for me personally fire is the number one priority out of all of these projects that are going on um the others i mean city hall and police although they're priced separately that's one project you know it is um and that is a that is a huge huge bite so i'm i'm looking forward to seeing funding options and how we would accomplish that but it also concerns me on our maintenance facility i i don't want to put money and significant money because even three million that's nothing to sneeze at um to remodel something that really isn't isn't working out well so i have to come back let's do it the same way because police wasn't done right and we have to come back yeah and i don't i don't want to do that right you had to ride that pony so let's not hop on her again and give her the whip um so that like that's my my view on these so but everyone else gets to say what their priorities are and their abuse of it and that's fine bench um i'm going to lean back on staff and here i mean well you heard from greg it's police and city hall and then we can still work on on fire station two uh and uh the maintenance and they'll come back to that uh um i would go with what garrett and greg have had to say um the one thing i do want to say though and i've experienced this and so have you i know the police thing got kind of messed up a few years ago we weren't here when that first happened but it happened but we've got to do it right the aim center worked out the same way we we had a budget wouldn't go a dollar above that budget and we lost all kinds of things we didn't get our kitchens we didn't get the thing equipment we needed for our theater we couldn't book people because we didn't have any of it we kept adding on afterwards so whatever we do let's do it right so we don't have to come back and do it again and you know nobody likes to have to go back to the police department after spending 14 million and then go okay now we've got to do we've got to do that four years yeah and four years four years no i get i get that i mean mistakes have happened but let's not be the council that continues to make those mistakes if we're going to do something let's do it right so police city police and city hall that's his priority yeah and then and then at the same time um chief uh bj is going to work on all of the issues to get uh fire station two on and dan t you'll work on the numbers uh yes all right we're having a side conversation and my apologies on that okay i i'm good i just wanted to um clarify just for the record we don't have the exposure kind of problems right with the physical kind of but i want to call out that what we don't have is staff wellness space mental health space yeah physical space and that is critically important too and i just i want to let that be known i think we're all on the same page as where that goes but i just want to make sure that and what people don't realize that there is a lot of um those health issues with police and if anybody would want to understand that um illinois highland park when you saw those police officers during that incident with their hands over their face or the tears coming down there or the their physicality you know that they are under stress and you know that those incidents are staying with them because i know it does with our folks and i know that their mental health has been in jeopardy and some of them i also know have exited because of mental health so it's very important greg you had your hand up yeah and councilmember schultz pointed out we started a side conversation i apologize for that um i would say that um i don't take it lightly in a public meeting uh to to prioritize between departments that's not an easy place to be and i i would i would underscore what tanya just said about their operations at the end of the day i'm most concerned about the police operations and particularly the the mental health and well-being of our officers and in from a facility's perspective we have some real opportunity to to change that dynamic in and that's where that's where my prioritization thoughts come from and that that doesn't diminish and i think that the the challenging reality here is uh there are some real health and safety concerns to council member schultz's point about our current fire station number two project and frankly we have we have quite a bit of work to do to understand the financial implications of moving two major projects forward right much less three so there's a lot of work to do in just in terms of planning and trying to best reflect those priorities and put a timeline together that we think is reasonable again based on the accelerating costs of all of these projects there are real challenges there so well and so the question i asked was when would we need to really seriously look at fire station two and get that going and he was telling me two to three years and again that's my opinion based on my interactions with the leadership team our consultants and most importantly chief quite frankly we are looking at three major projects at the exact team well city hall city hall and police uh if we start the work uh that garrett has suggested that we begin right now um bidding can be well this is pushing it 23. we've had this conversation yeah bidding can be in 23 but you guys have to do a lot of work i mean but uh bj yeah madam mayor members of council in our experience it's a it's a year of design before you're ready for and even if you were to say go now by the time you rfp for an architect engineering firm yeah you know you're looking at the other 23 for for bids just when you say go so yeah i mean i think the council member schultz's point yeah there's three major projects i think it'd be tough to do them on top of each other just staff capacity-wise all of us supporting each other that was labor intensive design station one not just for the fire department yeah but i would argue any department i'm looking at tom right now and the amount of work that is you know so i mean i think to to uh city manager lindbergh's point of if you spaced him a couple years apart you know if you if you design city hall and police immediately and then you during that time someone had suggested you know looking for the land for station two that's a year project you know all that you can be two three years out for that so you can complete one project before you're ready to bid the next one out because i think the reality is from a staff perspective it is a these are very labor-intensive projects and we want to do them right yep i think everybody's agreed to that and um you know and then it takes time all of this takes time and that's why i'm saying if we start now with police and city hall we don't get to beds until late 23 and then at the same time you're looking at land and then also doing design work for fire station and you also have to look at at maintenance and all of that so it's not it's what we need to do so yeah so when we when you're looking at some of the information that we've requested and you're looking at that timeline um on that on that proposed timeline we'll also need to include that what can residents expect yeah by that timeline absolutely right so it won't be all at once but they'll need to know you know this year yeah and i also understand that those are projections but yeah we'll give them the best information that yeah and we'll keep it updated yes and we'll do the same thing that we did with fire station one where there is a uh page on the website where they understand what is going on and uh and and it's very transparent so we'll continue to do that kind of work yeah greg i would i feel that i would be remiss not to remind the council that uh although i've said to to our leadership team a number of times one of my uh single largest regrets of the last three years is the 26 million dollar placeholder on future projects um i don't mean to be flippant about it councilmember schultz you bring up a very good point um we all can add and we saw that the total project costs of each of the three of these projects together it is vastly off the mark from where we've where we've put a placeholder in our financial planning so part of this to council member schultz's point is i would like to take your direction around priorities but then also put together a comprehensive plan that looks at each of the three major facilities projects that we've identified in and puts together some options for consideration discussion and policy direction just around the financing of it because frankly i can feel dan's eyes in the back of my head um just being honest we don't have a plan pulled together for that yeah and i'm going to need we're looking at 79 million exactly yeah and this is the reason nine million yeah um with uh with the three projects and this is the reason why i'm suggesting that three million that's not even you get near nine no no i think it does the whole thing right no yeah no because looking at the future dollars that's city hall 34 million please 22.4 fire at 20 and then you're 3 million no more okay garrett okay madam mayor council you know we came into this evening with a lot of information to share and looking for a lot of feedback um i and we got it yes and and i i personally appreciate the direction that you're supporting right now which is allow us to wrap up these studies and with the feedback we got move into the next stage on all of the projects because we're not committing it won't be throwing money away that type of work will need to be done anyhow and the next step will benefit from it so we've seen any delay in time significantly increases it this will allow us to move forward on all of them in their own ways and then as more information becomes available and as dan t has an opportunity to look at financial planning we'll be better positioned a year from now to determine what is our true next step right now now that we have more information so i appreciate that direction i think it is the right thing to do and it keeps all of these projects front and center it doesn't necessarily prioritize any of them beyond what we think tonight is what the best thing is but it doesn't from a timeline it doesn't prioritize us moving forward to the next step i think is what i was trying to say so point of clarification garrett uh what i'm hearing from the council tonight is that we will move into pre-design on police and city hall and we will put together a comprehensive plan that considers all three of the major projects and keeps them moving at a at a timetable that would be proposed back to the council in our next update are you acceptable to also pre-design on the maintenance facility because we do have a lot of i mean it is a small number from a consultant standpoint and it will be beneficial to whatever future project we do i guess that's my that would keep all of them moving prefer that okay i'll look to the council for that direction okay so yeah then so yes let's yes to police and city hall let's proceed that seems like the most complete plan in front of us and one that we can get off the ground first it sounds like bj and that team is going to continue to look for locations i'm sure they already have been but i did have a question for ryan in the maintenance piece where uh the admin arm is critically important so does that need to get moved up a list because what is critically important okay or greg sorry but i guess what i was saying is we do not want to not renovate our existing spaces to change those yeah the expansion would clearly help us operate more effectively be definitely a better place to work can we continue yes but i'd hate to not my preference would be that we stay on the list of projects yeah we don't strike that we don't strike things out okay and keep it going i love garrett's idea to uh include it with the pre-design uh and then we can kind of see where we're at that makes a ton of sense sounds like it's kind of interesting because i'm looking at this uh executive summary that was given to us that the maintenance facility has a construction cost of 15 million and a total project cost of 19 million so and madam mayor's you know some of there is the indoor storage space that's a factor of that and that was some of the things we talked about a phasing of rather than dump three million dollars into the building and waste that money if 19 million total project is too much to to bite off because of other projects going on is a smaller nine million dollar and i'm just pulling a number out of my head more realistic to at least take care of not wasting that money and and attacking those operational spaces that's the work that you all are going to do and tell us what the phasing would be and the cause that's correct you know that's that's an operational function it's not a a a policy discussion the policy discussion is that what's the priority for you all to work on and it's police and city hall and at the same time work on fire station two and then also look at uh maintenance because the numbers are here but those are today's numbers i think the bigger concern was garrett don't go paint a wall that we're gonna tear down in three to five years correct that's correct we don't want to do that i don't want to heard loud and clear yes yeah i don't want to think that's supposed to be sad three million here nine million there we're not going to do to maintenance what happened at police no yeah i have one last question so these are the big ones beyond city hall police maintenance and fire what should we expect to see after that there is something not asking you to go on a rabbit hole but if there were seeds to plant right now yeah are you just are you asking for a staff perspective yeah uh i would council member workman i i would turn to my colleagues i can say that these four now three really major projects city hall police combined fire station two maintenance are the identified needs um i would also be remiss not to not to turn the folks around the table clearly we have a significant investment in our water treatment plant ongoing operations and maintenance there has been a priority i i don't i don't know if there are major considerations there ryan i would i would also point to garrett we have the circle garage across the street we've talked about that um again we were maintaining that facility with the assumption that we would keep it as is i would also say that we've made the same operational decisions around around the ice center beyond that i would look to my esteemed colleagues to correct me well let's not forget that the aim center is also you know i mean with the water treatment we were looking at is there is there an issue to fix with water quality and so we were examining that of is this a hard water issue or is this a taste issue because those are two different things with two different ways to possibly correct and if i remember correctly those also were not inexpensive fixes by any means um so i know that that is that is on our agenda so we if you don't mind so yeah we plan on being here in august to discuss a survey yeah what the um what the citizens felt about our water we do get a fair number of responses that we'll be able to provide that for we do spend a lot of time in capital planning on the actual treatment aspects of water treatment the building we're not experts in that as much so we ought to at some point have chris anderson go through there and do something like they did somewhere building to see exactly where we're at on that and then we're looking at every single park i think we're sending a consultant to every park we have countless buildings those aren't the big ones you asked about but we have but if there was like a clubhouse at burnham wood or things you know that maybe we have blind spots on but again i i wasn't we don't need a comprehensive list but if there was just things creeping in the background that would be good to know about i i mean they collectively took care of i mean the ice center is in excellent shape the water treatment we have discussed it's the one major building that it probably needs to have some attention to get a better understanding of of its condition the aim center as our mayor referenced is we've we've been taking care of it and it is still in good shape at this point and then we have countless park buildings including a maintenance shed and things like that out in the systems that collectively you they're millions of dollars um but none of them are things that we can't kick down the road as we were talking about the exactly yes we're not in a this is needs to be condemned or replaced councilmember workmen to your question i don't think that it would be a bad idea for staff to fully identify those facilities needs over the course of a reasonable time period yeah i think that we could we could quantify and qualify this for the council um from an information perspective within any more a little bit more precision and a little bit more thoughtfulness think of it the same way of our road construction it wouldn't be a bad idea you know we kind of forecast out well i don't know how many years we go out for road replacement 15 years yeah putting together a model that might help a capital improvement facility improvement plan wouldn't yeah wouldn't it be a bad idea and do more stuff yeah give me the give me the time to talk to garrett and figure out about the capacity and and our ability to deliver tonight's meeting that i was going to look at his non-verbals and i've done that all night this was really the first time that i saw any uh any sense of fear or yeah that's not a price it's no different than than ryan's capital improvement plan this is just a facilities plan doesn't mean but at least we understand what's coming down the road we will look at how we might get that information to the council in a more intentional way in the future if that's okay you know next year's fine i'm not in a it was just a one-off question they've got so much on their plate right now it was not a formal ask it was just kind of but when you make those asks guess what our staff does you don't have to do everything i ask you know i thought we were done with this until garrett said one more thing yeah ryan i have a slightly larger department than garrett has to manage the cip things that yes so uh garrett does a lot with this team and that's the reason why i said next year is fine does it you've got a lot on your plate right now there will be a christmas this year yeah okay uh greg and staff is it clear the directions we will enter pre-design for police city hall at the same time we will parallel some pre-design for maintenance hearing that the council's priorities are police city hall the fire station ii in the main campus absolutely yeah and search and begin land search station following the model that we use for the fire station one project made to your point yeah thank you okay are you all good i feel great hey garrett you never laughed and smiled when we were doing police this is really something yeah point of point of clarity for the council just so you know what to expect in terms of information from staff we will wrap up the the needs assessment portion of the project you will get a final report both from cnh and bkv i will provide or garrett will provide all of that to you give us a little bit of time to wrap up the police city hall needs study the next thing that you'll see from us is pre-design plan and and potentially proposals for uh consultants on that along with our next update or check-in with you would be the comprehensive plan for each of implementation of each of these three major projects should you choose to move forward with them okay are we good with this because ryan is because he's sitting here very patiently ryan we're gonna cruise you're gonna cruise okay let me take a 10 no [Laughter] i am going to stand up and stretch my legs i need to can we thank you no okay uh uh we're taking a five yeah can we take five i need to go medicate myself uh we're back and uh the next item is the ice center parking lot replacement discussion ryan you have the floor fantastic uh we will go quick i got my colleague bob subka with wsb here to talk about it he's a landscape architect i got first couple slides he's got the middle and then i'll finish her up but basically we're trying to we're trying to get out here is um we when we looked at the space we wanted to make sure we as we talked about tonight did it right so that it can be as much of a usable space and uh have as many amenities as possible for all the different things that happen at that space as opposed to just replacing the parking lot basically as this yeah so um this is a picture that they took last september and actually shows the the format of how it looks during the now branded burnsville festival um so it's kind of cool to see this is how it lays out when they when they're occupying the lot but i'll go right on and bob can take it from here welcome bob well thank you matt mayer members of the council staff um same as what you've been hearing all night so we we you know we've been working with ryan and a lot of staff on just trying to vision how this parking lot could be uh repurposed how it could be just not reconstructed but you know what are the options we really have so our first option is uh what's in front of you right now it's just how do we rebuild the parking lot which is you know minimalist effort we are going to more or less come in at the machine and mill the asphalt as it is in place do a little bit of improvements in terms of some tree islands and things to bring it up to kind of curtain current codes that you guys have and uh replace some lights um and then you know i'd give you a longevity of you know probably you know 15-20 years of that that lifespan on that our cost that we put to that parking lot as you can see in front of you is about 750 000 working off a 575 000 budget and this doesn't include any of the extra power things that have been talked about with the fire musters and things like that that is purely the minimalist effort to more or less reconstruct the parking lot more or less as it is with the exception of the parking lot or the tree islands i guess so then the next slide is spinning off that is we kind of started talking more collaboratively with with staff about what really could this parking lot be you know there's talk of you know the movies that happen over there and the other events the the circuit theme that happens between uh the round building and the ice arena and you know how do we look at multi-functional spaces that both enhance pedestrian safety and ada but we also think of vehicle circulation and how the circulation could be improved to make it flow better during large events and then kind of being more stewards of of the land we were trying to figure out how can we deal with that large parking lot the runoff that happens with it which right now is just running off into the storm sewer and going to the pond to the east of city hall but how can we be better stewards of that and promote kind of green infrastructure and and water cleanliness and bmp so this is the current concept that we are looking at right now i did just kind of throw the aerial up in the top left corner just so you can kind of compare the two a little bit side by side some of the the key things i just want to point out without going through greater detail on the southern side what we really did is remove one bay of parking against the southern curb line to allow for a pedestrian corridor i guess i'll call it through the parking lot and that's just to provide a passageway to get people from east to west across the parking lot which currently doesn't exist safety was really important we know there's a lot of back and forth between the two facilities so in terms of maintenance we'll get you know into some weeds down the road but right now we just want to identify and a plan how we're going to move people through the site but still maintain function and vehicular circulation the other probably key item i would like to address is the connection from the parking lot east into the drop-off loop at the ice arena right now we have actually removed that lane that's currently there if you can kind of see it up in the aerial up in the upper corner or if you're familiar with the parking lot but it's kind of a congestion area during events and drop-offs there's a lot of bottleneck that happens there so we more or less have said is there really a greater functionality to having that there and by removing it it would number one provide closer proximity for ada parking and i know ryan and staff have been actually kind of communicating as well about eb stations so the bay of parking on that easterly side against the entrance of the drop off lane would be like ev charging stations ada parking a dominant sidewalk connection that would connect the parkway to the ice arena and then provide that ada access from the ada stalls to the site the third point i'm going to hop around a little bit third point is on the northern side again is a large parking lot that that is not used year-round so in terms of visual integrity what we're promoting here is a bmp but also a little visual enhancement is that northern bay of parking would actually be like a green paving system so it would actually be a grass paving system that could be used for overflow parking but most of the time throughout the summer and things you would just be like a widened parkway of the the greenway that you see when you drive up and down the parkway right now so it kind of widen that as a grass system and provide the bmp system to build on the bmps there's some dash boxes that might be a little harder to make out but we're really talking about is doing some underground chamber systems that will actually move the storm water under the parking lot and well that's kind of the slide we're talking to but but allow for for the trees are actually called evapotranspiration but we bring the water to the trees and the trees absorb some of that water i mean they're not going to drink hundreds of thousands of gallons but they will help reduce the runoff as well as the water quality um more i guess utility or infrastructure things uh the big one is power so we have shown all new light poles in the parking lot and then within that we've also talked about bringing power in for festival power and this is a large portion to the fire mustard but also other events that could happen that maybe are currently not happening due to the lack of power so within these new tree islands again just to bring the parking lot up to coal we're going to use those tree islands to create i call it for layman's terms like an rv pedestal you see in a campground so we'll set pedestals out there which will provide additional power for running certain events and empower needs for those vendors food vendors rides carnival rides and other like movie in the park events things like that that could be used uh there's some other minor points that will i talk about a little bit later down the road with some amenities but there's some place making things that you'll see the little orange boxes up there i'll kind of hit on those in a bit as well as some other kind of more i'll call it visitor experiences amenities that are in here i'll hit on that here in a couple slides i kind of recap those here in a minute first piece is the sustainability so this is again just the storm water infrastructure the parking lot so the left side is kind of showing that layering effect so the way that system is built is there's gravel with like a heavy duty cell system that's infilled and then grass grows on top of that so you're seeing the system being constructed in the picture on the left but in the end you're seeing an all grass system that would then interface or butt up to the asphalt parking lot and then the right side is kind of that second system which is i kind of call that silver cell system which is you're creating a a structural engineered soil within those islands and lateral systems underneath the parking that connect them all together which really is moving and transforming storm water across the site in such a way to improve quality of the storm water if it does leave the site but also reducing the runoff from the site by doing these type of underground cell systems does that produce healthier trees in those boulevards well it does reduce the amount of irrigation that is something that we'll have to talk about and obviously tree islands are commonly stunting tree growth i guess i'll say for lack of better terms so usually when we design trees we say that the trees are going to grow maybe they're like two-thirds or three-quarters of their size because of the environmental stress of the island effect of the heat coming off the asphalt and stuff so it would provide kind of a more of a rejuvenating water source system that would provide you know that ability for the trees to probably be a more that 75 85 percent instead of that 60 to 75 scale so the sidewalk would be at grade all the water would drain here we'd collect it in this curb line separating the asphalt from the parking stalls and then the water would then be fed into these tree islands too so it's water reuse right on site to help with those i mean ryan what are the the new points for this because you came and you asked and we approved the resurfacing of the parking lot but we also took away that entrance that goes into the driveway so that was one of the things that you asked for i told you told us about and also the um the sidewalk and the reuse of water so and you're going to have some lights so what are the newer points that you're adding to this probably the main thing i don't know if ryan hit on this i mean probably the biggest thing that is the latest evolution is the place making component of this that came about from staff is they recognize that it's kind of on the campus there's a lot of interaction that happens not just in the building but outside the buildings uh pedestrian walkways people that go out to lunch or they walk along the sidewalks around here in their launch and they said there's really no space out there that provides that place-making piece so what we have up above is kind of building upon that a little bit so there's the upper left picture is kind of a little a little seating area that we talked about and those would be along the parkway those two little orange boxes that were kind of shown on the graphic before and then we had a large one which was outside the ice arena there's a kind of flower area but there's that bigger green island to the i guess northwest of the entry doors and we just say that's something that could actually be expanded upon i mean whether it's not just simple picnic tables but i'm like if there is interest we can actually embed like game tables within the picnic table so it's not just a picnic table it actually has a multi-purpose to it so if there are events obviously probably in the winter they won't be as heavily used but if there are events that are happening there people can kind of use that kind of space outside the ice arena as kind of a plaza or picnic space that has these added amenities in addition to that we've kind of embellished a little bit more of again those those more kind of visual things so they had brought up the idea of having some sort of banner system whether it's at the entrance the parking lot or somewhere along the parkway so when there are events that happen you know the ability to have polls that are set up are ready to hang banners up to announce certain festivals or events that may be happening and then the last thing is in the upper i guess my upper right is including banners on the actual light poles in the parking lot that would kind of stem or build upon again events and themes and other elements that might happen in there just to create that sense of place uh within the campus so okay see i guess this is likely where we were going trying to figure out how we're going to do this if we want to do these expanded amenities the project costs would be x approximately 1.5 million dollars that'd be in next year's dollars hopefully we had the 575 um we need to figure out a facility spun yeah yeah we have to figure out the 425 yet garrett you getting more gray hair dante there's gonna be a fist fight in the parking lot after the meeting he allowed me on to the project and this is what happened um stormwater fun this is shown i'll just go out to the next slide um let's hear so we we are showing the sustainability areas funded uh through the cip and the preliminary 2023 that should work the place making branding event power would be approximately 150 000 which could be uh eligible for park dedication funding as it's enhancing the amenities there um and then uh basically this is the number we have to figure out if we want to um go forward with this uh there's options to figure that out including delaying other facilities projects it'd be a major delay of other amended other projects that are necessary we don't have a lot of 425 000 projects sitting around this might be where i would perhaps recommend us going uh phase three facilities you know if we're going to recommend city hall and police first perhaps we package this with that project use the site as available for staging and then when we're done let's just go finish off that project over there at the same time that would solve this problem if we bonded for the whole thing that would actually help out the facilities fund for other smaller projects uh by removing the 575. otherwise there's options such as increasing the levy for this one-time dollars or i'm just telling you what they are or um i'm working with the landfill and there may be some dollars associated with um increased host fees that we are hoping to get that i'll have some more information there so um that's kind of wrap if we want to do this we got to figure out the 425 that's basically it and there's some options for you i got ryan's back on this one let's make it happen but we we did kind of it wasn't structured but it in in the time that i was here and listening to the previous presentations that were here the question did arise that i'm like now that i'm really listening to your timeline and things i i do know ryan i were saying if this city hall police station is really going to happen i'm like you're going to need a place to stage yes and as much as i obviously would love to see this parking lot transform into something as wonderful as it is i would hate to as you guys are speaking to using money wisely i'd hate to put a million and a half into a parking lot that probably is going to have to be a staging area for some portion of this project should this be happening in the next two to four years i couldn't say for certain if that lot can really sustain itself for another two to four years i can't tell you intimately how well that pavement is but that is kind of the cars on it now they sometimes fall apart but we will hold it together if that is the uh if that is the that's a more recent development than in the last couple hours that were like kind of listening to the conversations maybe timing-wise this makes more sense to be strategic with everything else that's happening so i like the concept i there's a lot of walkers in this area and i think a lot of those things would get used and i probably would anticipate seeing an increase of pedestrians and people coming into this area with with those features and amenities but to your point we're going to invest all this money and then like you said use it as a staging area maybe we phase it i think you could bid it with the project and have it the final thing what kind of power are you gonna put into that that parking lot over there it would you could operate food trucks it could operate rides so hopefully we'd have a lot less generators and a lot more short extension cords that's the goal with at least that's what we were hearing would be of a great benefit thanks i can't say we'd solve it all but we'd have a definite improvement yeah to to build that a little bit i i do know as part of our earlier study we he's not here tonight but we did have someone kind of meet with city staff and look at the electrical capabilities of what's out there today and i know he did some load centers and said okay this is the available power that we have between the ice arena and you know the other facility and he's like this is and so i do know there was some information that was shared about without bringing another service in what can we physically accomplish and they felt as though there was some pedestal powers that could come in that wasn't thinking about the eb stations because we were still some conversations about some of that is you have to bring another service anyhow so um but some thought has been put into just inventorying what is actually out here currently and how much power could we pull from that system so ryan yes you know we've been talking about the heart of the city and putting power in there how much of it is done dan you can't play both sides of this you had a concert therefore that's a need that's been there for a long time so the um this past year prior towards putting the holiday lights up um we we modified it so that the receptacles on most of the poles are now at grade level so we don't need ladders to go and fix our um fault ground fault issues right now out on burnsville parkway they're working on the project to actually put in the new um pedestal so we have one per tree so we expect those to be available for lighting this year on burnsville parkway from niklat to the bridge so and then we are budgeting for every second year every third year to make similar improvements throughout the district okay just wanted to know what your plan was because we're a million dollars you you need so it's the 425. yep so i'm hearing that you guys are saying phasing it because we're focusing on on city hall and it makes the most logical sense to me given the priority that was stated tonight to not do that and then tear up the lot when you put all the big boxes out there with stuff in it again and then follow up immediately with the same project and get all the cool things that this project could provide it also helps the funding source challenge that we got there if we're gonna bond it's all in the same yeah and and you're saying wrapping that this across the 425 that's needed into a city hall and police project that is uh the second bullet of which i would say would be the makes the most sense from the pub works directors uh uh in the fireworks director's mind we got someone more qualified behind staring at greg uh greg's back i'm used to it to potentially weigh in if you like my seat is available if you'd like him at the table yeah madam mayor and council if i may um i don't agree with ryan often but i i do agree with him in this situation um you know one of the things i mentioned earlier all the time is that um you know we in the preliminary stage of the study we did not engage the community much in a in their influence on this particular property which does include what their experience is outside there so i think by both delaying this there's some financial benefit but it also you know we brainstormed what some of the place making space might look like but we might get some in influence from the community that causes us to adjust it slightly or change it and what not in a way that continues to make this a welcoming space and a place that the community can so i'm hearing you supporting that and i see you nodding your head i would agree madame air that it makes the most sense to incorporate this into uh into a potential police city hall project i also agree with garrett that with your direction tonight to go into pre-design in the police city hall project we need to start talking with the community a little bit more so we could get some good insight on this project as well as we as we make better more intentional connections okay i know you said you had ryan's back so you're you're in you're in on the phasing of wrapping this let's just do it no we'll phase it in yeah yeah care yes okay all right bob and ryan you have your direction thank you thank you yeah thank you thank you thank your colleagues who all are supporting you on this one i'm wrapping it up i'm always thankful yeah okay round table okay um city manager thc yes madam mayor um i am very grateful to fire chief gentlemen who has spent the past week and a half covering for me as i've been out on medical leave as part of that he had agreed to just help facilitate a short discussion with the council tonight by way of update on what we know of the current thc law in the state of minnesota and what we're doing about it from an operations perspective okay before we go further it's 9 51 and we have a 10 o'clock mandatory or german members of the council i need a supermajority to extend our time to 10 15 10 30. yeah i think our our our regular round table will go relatively quick tonight yeah i'm pretty sure that's gonna go real fast we can move on okay with that chief johnny yeah talk all you want now chief thank you i think this is the second time i've been up against a uh mandatory adjournment yeah memory serves that's correct yeah brief us on our 3-2 pot yeah members of the council honestly we don't know a lot so i'm not going to provide you a lot of information at this moment correct uh so we're we are convening staff and our city attorney tomorrow to brainstorm on this and identify questions and issues and start to really discover all the information we can at it uh you've probably seen in the news there are city take cities taking a very active approach to this i was at the league yesterday for a meeting and they said they plan to have an faq sheet out in the next couple weeks that will help us particularly on the zoning front if we want to take any approach to that but there's other issues besides you know because i think the regulatory piece is what a lot of people think of right away are we going to regulate it in some way create some sort of zoning ordinance around that and uh we can definitely look at that and and provide some options if the council so chooses um you know such as who can sell it and any type of licensing uh interestingly enough the state put this under the board of pharmacy you know you and i talked about that is the current regulatory environment sounds like it's going to be a pretty passive regulatory environment complaint based only from a state perspective so it does not restrict us from a local perspective at this point to regulate it but there's two other categories of things i think that are are considerable for us um one is the employment aspect is what do we need to do as an employer to deal with the legalization of thc in the state and what does that mean for us internally for policies and procedures so that's one aspect and we'll speak for chief schwartz but there's definitely a law enforcement component to this um since we haven't had to deal with this from a broad legalization standpoint so i don't know if chief schwartz has anything to add to that at this point but uh madame members of the council just the compliance piece so how are we looking at these in terms of like how we look at alcohol or um that sort of thing so what what kind of compliance do we want to require so that would be the big piece for us and would that be my compliance like would it be a complaint or like when we do alcohol checks or we do tobacco checks are we going in and making sure they're doing the things that um what about like under the influence type thing yeah and i think that's like yes we have a lot to learn i mean sometimes this legislation this is apparently how things get done sometimes as they just pass the stuff and then we have to figure out how to manage it after the fact so and we've done that before and we'll figure it out but i think there's still a lot of unknowns about um what under the influence is going to look like and as we experience this and obviously the concerns about youth getting into these things that are gummies which are gummies children eat so you know there's a lot of things we have to to think about that brownies and cookies yeah so beverages yeah so just just understanding all of that we're still working we're still working little reese's cups yeah yeah and and to see uh the body processes it differently from alcohol so yeah of just understanding like what is the state going to look at that or are things going to change and but when you're under the influence you're under the influence what does that look like out and operationally on the street when people are experiencing people that are driving or yeah when we're going on calls and people are under the influence you know will we be dealing with it in similar ways that we do now or will there be more guidance or will we just be doing this at the local level so madame eric console we don't have a lot of answers you've experienced uh but we are working on it and that's really kind of the update is yeah is this is new to all of us and you know we hope to provide additional information to you relatively soon here in an update and then if you know as policy considerations uh as we learn about them we can pose them to you and see where we want to go so i think that i think the benefit madam mayor to chief gentleman's point uh some of what chief schwartz was was saying we have our code review task force up and running right now this obviously fits into some of that work we'll update you we'll give you the information that you need we'll seek your policy direction and i think that we have some real opportunities to incorporate into our current work and you and i have a meeting with mlc on this particular subject i think that's coming up yes next soon next week i think tuesday tuesday yeah so there's some there's some more information coming out yeah we're paying attention if i may like i don't think we're gonna have to get too rambunctious on this because the state legislature is signaling that they're going to do a like a unified licensing and all that kind of stuff so like i would expect that the next session yeah um we're all just getting educated yeah i mean so and i and i realized that we have a lot of questions over it and that type of thing but i think in short order it's gonna be it's gonna be sorted out for us do we know who can sell it now pretty much anyone can sell it anyone that can buy it can just open up a little place you can go to the pharmacy a bakery it came out with this trunk yeah i don't need a trunk i got a truck for that kind of stuff yeah you didn't hear that chief how would you do this for a vendor license door-to-door vendor license just saying you know a little badge on and say hey i've been sitting here in the city but but i mean on a serious note i i do think yeah it's getting late i do think the state is looking at the legislature's already signaling that this is a priority for them in the in the first session so yeah i think i think it's just gonna be shook out for us yeah yeah i would add that this does add complexity to to local policy making and to our local operations yeah um it's why we're pulling together a cross-functional group the leadership teams meeting this week to talk more about it i want to make sure that each of our department heads has the opportunity to to to know about what's going on to to have a voice in our conversation for us to get back to all of you with the information that you need to make any applicable uh policy decisions or not yeah well more to come yeah okay thank you chief welcome enjoy your conversation tomorrow yeah should be interesting okay michelle it's you special meeting to canvas the election oh you know it's that time of year and uh the primary election is vastly approaching we will need to canvas on the third day after the primary which happens to be a friday august 12th it's always that painful friday afternoon where you guys have to have a council meeting um and i say friday afternoon we could do it friday morning but what i've experienced is that over the years with the early voting the in-person voting the um the election day voting and all of that sometimes we can't get all the numbers to balance before noon so we we can always get them to balance by noon but sometimes like not by 9 a.m so that gives us a little opportunity to make sure everything is perfectly counted for and if you looked at your schedules anything after one o'clock i think it would work if there's a preference at the 12th yep i'm gone she's not here you will be acting there do you have a preference acting here good meetings coming up too it's been about six years since i've had to run a meeting um i'm good i just have a lumineers concert at five that i have to be ready for oh and i can't come to after five last night we're [Music] no what about two o'clock well she had made a good point dan usually can't do stuff until yeah until after five three to canvas oh well then us three can just do it so like 2 p.m that's fine yeah and the thing is you just need a majority takes ten minutes five to ten minutes depending on how much conversation you would like to have candace michelle gives you all the the numbers and everything tuesday anyways yeah we all are okay good everybody okay thank you reports you have anything to report i was gonna report um power in the parking lot for fire muster this year but we're gonna table that till next year [Laughter] that wasn't bitter was it oh my god no wonder you said you have ryan's back um i have a league meeting tomorrow for um uh that great stride i have a league meeting tomorrow that i will report okay okay okay um the only thing i have to record is august 20th for art and all that jazz and we have all tiser is our headliner with eric marinthol all grammy award-winning players coming into town and it's going to be a fun day and it's free everyone it's free yeah and they already put power on the nickel commons part cara uh i was not at the last dbb meeting because i was still in covid jail um dan gapsterson however attended that so if you could fill counsel in please the discussion was uh dismantling the dbb and got into a very prolonged discussion about a lot of people didn't understand exactly what that meant yet and so they've got to list about this long of things they have to go through before anything like that actually happens so it's a lengthy the process of stuff going down yeah yeah the joint power is already said whatever that means well the joint powers already says what it means i know but yeah tomorrow you'll be going they'll be reporting back on what those items are and what the problem is according to the joint powers you have to do if you'd withdraw including the county good meeting to fill in for carrots i'll be there with you we have the international festival coming up on saturday and uh also this year for the mayor's reception i um it it's in honor of our staff for all of the hard work that they've done through covet and all of this so i that mayor's reception is nice geared to thanking staff it's thanking them for their work and um but we're going to have a fun time at the international festival and that's all i have because we didn't our uh savage burnsville meeting was cancelled the last one so that was i believe we meet again here in july though that must be coming up the ceo forum was very productive and very good and thank you uh chief bj we had it over at uh fire station one and with people online and in person and a lot of great uh reports on how our businesses are doing and how businesses are doing well and for the first time in dakota county ever our unemployment rate is one point four we're like on the lowest of the state we are 1.4 yeah yeah so it's good but people are looking for for people but there were some really good things um the president of uh the dakota technical college and also inver hills connections of how they're going to help businesses to educate some workers but they're going to use people from inside the industry to help teach so because they don't have they don't have teachers so it was good um greg you have anything nothing else madame welcome back yeah welcome back appreciate that yeah and we're going to adjourn so you can go home mac has one more thing oh you do it wasn't on my agenda max making a stay later okay no i just wanted to let everybody know that the code review task force will be addressing palm brokers resellers and sexually oriented businesses at the july 27th meeting this month come sit down do you have all of your election judges lined up i do congratulations thank you okay if there's nothing else we stand adjourned by acclimation thank you all okay thank you you