Natal. Here we go. Heat. Heat. Hey everybody, I Here we go. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. Number All right. Good morning everyone. We are casually a few minutes late to start our 10:30 March 4th Urban Economic Development Committee meeting. I'm Councelor Balis chairing this meeting. First item on the agenda. I call this meeting to order. Second item, Kayla Lee. Appointment to the Tulsa Preservation Commission filling an atlarge seat. Term expires February 2029 from council district 3. Do we have Yay. Hi Kayla. >> Yay. >> Yeah, please. Um if you want to come up to you if you want to sit right here with us. Yes, I brought our intern with us. >> Oh, wonderful. Yeah, >> you can see how the city processes work from the best district even. >> Absolutely. >> Yes. >> Don't worry. >> It's okay. >> We're glad you could be here. If you >> city council city works. >> Yes. Um we love civic engagement. If you wouldn't mind telling us a bit about yourself and why you're interested in serving. >> Yeah. So, I'm Kayla Lee. Uh I'm the owner of Le Simon Design and Fortress Builders. We're a design build company, so we do architecture and architect and uh we build a lot of the things that we draw. Um so have a lot of experience with um the built environment and historic preservation is um near and dear to my heart. I was a president of Tulsa Foundation for Architecture, which has kind of a a hand in uh the conversation when it comes to preservation and different uh items like that. So, um I think I could be uh useful in just my understanding of design. And you know, architecture is kind of our it's it's like our uh cultural ambition on display frozen in time. And so when you have these monuments to what was it talks about the history, the the heritage, these different um kind of opportunities to really tell the story of who we are, who we were. Um, I think I can provide a a helping hand in in that conversation as people bring projects to the group. So, that's why I put my hat in a ring. So, any questions for me? >> Yeah. Any questions? Councelor Bengal? >> I love history. I love buildings. I love the historical buildings that we have. So, obviously, this is important to us. >> Yeah, definitely. >> Especially as we look at one of the >> buildings that we're looking at downtown. Um I think when we lose those portions of our history they kind of regretful and sorrowful. >> Yeah. >> Because they're kind of reminiscent about how it would have been smart if we had maintained those. So thank you for being willing to serve on a board that kind of highlights that for us. >> Yeah. And then even navigating those really tricky situations where it's like you know if we wanted progress and what does that look like? It's like what does preservation look like even in a digital sense of like taking high quality photos or drone imagery or some way preserving what was and capturing it so it can be on display maybe in a different you know way in a museum or something where it could be you can have this walkth through or something. So, it's like it's it can be tricky because it's like sometimes the land is needed for other things, but if we can maintain those components that really speak to who we are as a people and history and Tulsen and stuff to me that's the first thing is to do that. >> I love that. And to that, the fact that you're talking about the land and the cultural history, >> I love the cultural influence Yeah. >> that you're going to bring. uh for all of Tulsson's. Yeah. And I think that's really important that we address that there's not just one homogenized >> Yeah. >> cultural aspect to architecture that there's a whole diversity of >> influences. So I'm really grateful. >> No. Right on. >> Yeah. Thank you. And you're in my district too. >> Yep. Absolutely. >> That's a bonus. >> Yeah. Points. >> Any other questions? Okay. So, we will be um voting on this um at our 5:00 pm meeting on the 11th. You are welcome to attend, but you don't have to. But if you do, you can always get up and talk to us again on the mic if you feel like it. So, your call, but thank you so much for being here. I know. Yeah, I think your willingness to serve. Thank you all so much. All right, we are on agenda item three. Thank you. Um, a Jackie DuPont appointment to the Tulsa Women's Commission replacing Amy Marisa. Term expires May 31st, 2029 from council district 5. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, but she said my name. >> She just really is alive. >> Oh, actually, yeah. We might need to split up the jackies from this. >> All right. if you wouldn't if you wouldn't mind telling us um a bit about yourself and your interest in serving on this specific commission. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm Jackie Dupont. Um I've been in Tulsa since 2010. I came with a program called Teach for America. Uh did Teach for America, was an educator, taught elementary school and then became an elementary school principal. uh did that for about nine years and then jumped over into the nonprofit space, led a nonprofit focused on youth development um and access to high quality out of school time learning opportunities and now I work in philanthropy. Um I'm interested in joining the women's commission because at the highest level I think every woman deserves the right to live in a city where they can thrive. Um, and so, you know, that means everything from access to affordable housing, access to high-quality child care, uh, thinking about a safe city and what that means for, um, for me and for my girls that I'm raising here in this city. And so, um, I think through the different areas of experience I have, um, I would be a great addition to the commission. >> Councelor Gilbert, >> sorry, which one? >> Oh my goodness. Um, thank you so much for wanting to to step up and and serve on this commission. I really appreciate that. But most importantly, thank you for representing district 5. >> Appreciate that. >> Counselor Archie. >> Yes. Now, where did you teach that? >> So, I taught at Bur Elementary and TPS. I taught in Jinx public schools and then I was a principal in Union public schools. So, kind of spread across the city. >> Well, thank you for your contribution. Thank you for your service. So, great. Of course, I've got a comment. So, um, this is a great example of Jackie's going the distance, so thank you for that. And, um, I came from a family of all females myself, so equity issues and women's issues are so important to me as well. So, I appreciate you serving on the commission. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Karen. >> Yes, >> Councelor Gilbert. Sure. Any other? Well, I'll just say I mentioned this till title five commissioners here pretty frequently, but you don't always have to wait for the whole commission to have made a conjoin recommendation or policy effort. If you independently are like, "Hey, I as a commissioner have observed this and would suggest that we take a policy approach to it. Please don't hesitate to reach out to us and let us know." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Thank you so much. Well, we'll be voting on this on the 11th 5:00 meeting. You are welcome to attend, but do not have to unless you want to take a mic again. >> Okay. Thank you so much. >> All right, we are on agenda item four. Corey Taylor, appointment to the Tulsa Arts Commission, replacing Jared Galahair. Term expires December 14th, 2026 from Council District 4. Hey, Corey. >> Hello. How's it going? >> Good. We're glad you could be with us today. If you could tell us a little bit about yourself and your why you're interested in serving on this commission. >> Yeah, for sure. Um, good morning. My name is Corey Taylor. Um, I'm a Tulsa native. I went to the University of Tulsa where I currently am back in a faculty capacity helping build out the music industry program under the arts and culture and entertainment degree program. Uh very excited uh for the potential opportunity to be a part of this commission. I've contributed to the arts in Tulsa for quite some time now. uh in the for the past three years in a formalized uh position as uh the chair of creative strategy and partnerships with Tulsa Mayfest um where I've been connecting the festival with national brands, curating the lineup, doing the media and the marketing strategy. Uh I'm also an entrepreneur where I do that same type of work for brands uh nationally. Um and I'm also leading a creative project downtown where I'm building a music venue uh 1300 cap music venue. So I've always loved the uh supporting the arts here in the city. I think I'm uniquely positioned, have a great uh perspective um as a former songwriter and producer as well. And so uh arts through and through and I'm just excited to contribute however I can. >> Any follow questions? Oh, be councelor Michael's pursing a record. >> Yeah, thanks for being at the table as a male because obviously thank you for representing today. >> Touche. I I love the the fact that you come to the table with the experience that you do, especially because when I think of the arts commission, immediately sculpture, painting, all immediately comes to my mind. I I forget, you know, because that's just how I am. Um I forget about music and things being part of that that spectrum. And so, >> normally I would ask, but I don't think it'd be appropriate to ask you what constitutes refrigerator art, right? Yeah. Um, so what kind of music do you mainly listen to or what do what kind of music do are your influences specifically? >> We promise not to vote based on your musical tastes. >> No, you know uh I'm really big on uh jazz, uh, R&B, pop, hiphop. But, you know, I I come as an appreciative of all different types of genres. you know, working with Mayfest, I put, you know, 75 artists a year uh uh across different stages and that's a representation of all genres and also being in the position as a venue owner developer at the current moment in time, you know, we we welcome any business from any genre. So, I've always been able to appreciate and even in the curriculum that we're building at the university, you know, I push students towards their interest uh and you know, having that ability to appreciate arts at all levels. >> Well, thank you. I appreciate you serving. >> Thank you. Thank you for being here today. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Council, do you have a sister? >> I do. >> Yeah. >> Family. >> Well, no. And thank you very much for your willingness to serve, especially on the arts commission. That's awesome. There's a lot of community dynamics that people have to navigate and we look forward to you doing that >> for sure. No. Um well, so we will be voting on this on um the 11th at the 5:00 meeting. You're welcome to attend, but you do not have to. We are very grateful for your service. We hope that you'll be down to continue doing it, >> of course, >> because I know it can get contentious specific commission. So, we are grateful to you. >> Yes. >> Grateful for the diversity, too. So, I think that's imperative. >> Awesome. Love it. >> Thank you so much. Let us know when the venue is opening. We'll do >> and then councelor Benold you can commission art an art piece from >> he does have a paint book. >> We did get busy coming to the front of the table. >> I know it's really nice to have people sit with us but usually >> they usually sit at the very end. >> I know they usually stay away from I know. All right we are on agenda item five. Kate Nerie reappointment to the Tulsa Women's Commission term expires May 31st 2029. Had pretty good attendance. seven out of 10 meetings good attendance um from council district 4. Hi, if you wouldn't mind sharing a bit about yourself and why you'd like to continue serving. Sure. >> Hey everyone, it's good to see you all. It's a privilege to be here and it's um also been a privilege to serve the last several years on the commission. um currently the vice chair and um just a little bit I came to Tulsa a little over 30 years ago for undergraduate and graduate school and been working the last 25 plus years in the nonprofit space in Tulsa mainly in public health and um have just it's been an honor to grow to love Tulsa and I've I've worked in um women's health I've worked with incarcerated populations um done a lot of work in the HIV prevention and care days and currently serve as the chief executive officer of Community Health Connection, which is one of the two community health centers here in Tulsa. Um, and we have four health centers in Tulsa, five on the way, and um we serve um a little over 20,000 unique patients a year and um just do a lot of great work. We have centers in um downtown um Midtown and East Tulsa. and um just being on the women's commission was a wonderful experience just helping to inform the city and the mayor's office on issues facing women. I came in kind of on the tail end of when they were working on child care. Um which was very informative to me. Um and then we're we're moving into the women's safety space and so we're really excited to to look into different things there. So follow questions. I know we're um I know I'm planning to or definitely want to put on some of the reporting you all done related to child care access onto our agenda so we can get you guys do such a robust reporting from your commission. >> It's been amazing and I and I cannot take right away because I since I came on the way been very proud of yeah the the reporting and the areas of inquiries that we've produced and um and look forward to continuing to share that. It's definitely not an end to that project. Well, please don't one as I I had mentioned to um you to Jackie as well, if you have a policy recommendation prior to finalizing a report, especially if it's time sensitive related to safety, please let us know. Um and two, if there's uh yeah, once there's a report, I know sometimes those get delivered at a 5:00 meeting, but to be able to have a really robust discussion, it's optimal to have them on a committee like this. So, please let us know if there's, hey, we have a report to present and discuss with you all. That would be really valuable. That's helpful because we you know we we know our role but it's it's very nice to have kind of tangible things that we can produce and continue to >> Yeah. I would love to be able to get more into you all really do some serious research and data like it's so much else that we should really dive into. So yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. Well, anything else? >> All right. We'll be voting on this on Yeah. Seriously, thank you. You're you're a busy person. All of you are. I don't even um Yeah, everyone's >> Yeah. Um yeah, we'll be voting on this on the 11th. You're welcome to attend, but don't have to. Um thank you. All right, now for the last fun part of the meeting agenda. We >> Sorry, Nathan. Um, all right. We are on agenda item six, reszoning application MPD6 from AG to MPD6 for multiple properties bounded by US Highway 412 East 41st Street South 193rd East Avenue and South 273rd East Avenue requested by Fair Oaks Ranch LLC and Rob Wall LLC. Um, with we have Lee Reynolds, etc., etc. Council District 6 TMEPC voted 100 to recommend approval of this zoning. >> Good morning, councilors. April Foster with the planning office here to talk to you about NPD6. So, this is a very significant zoning application. Um, probably well, in fact, it is the largest zoning application I've ever dealt with in my 13 years. It is 6,229 acres of land on the east far eastern end of the city limits. Uh this is located along the creek turnpike on the east and west sides and it is all held by Pharaoh Ranch. Currently all of the property is zoned at AG and the reasonzoning to the MPD establishes a little bit of everything. Um, so an MPD, for those of you that don't know, it's it's a master plan development that essentially establishes a base zoning for the entire property with separate development standards depending on each development area. So this particular project is divided into six separate development areas that are shown on this map. Um you can see there are three identified business and industrial center areas that would allow up to moderate industrial uses. Um those align with employment land use designations within our comp plan. The regional center designation is the red that borders along the turnpike. This is where you would focus probably very high intensity commercial uses, regional draws, maybe retail, um, large commercial. Village centers are kind of this transition zone between that highintensity commercial into what is the neighborhood center to the farther east. All of this um permits a range of uses, but the neighborhood center, the village center, the town centers are really focused on creating walkable urban spaces that include mix of uses. Um different a variety of housing types. Um everything from multif family to just single family. Um there are ADUs permissible within the neighborhood areas that are located here. Um, and there are some very robust development standards included in the MVD as to how all of that will be designed and will look. Uh, you can see in the background of this exhibit, it's it's a little difficult, but just some preliminary concepts about how they would like to see this area develop. Uh, we were told throughout this process that this was anywhere from a 20 to a 40year vision um to ultimately accomplish the development in this area. So, I wouldn't anticipate any sort of rapid oncoming development out of this. Um, this was really trying to get this area established for how it would look moving into the future and establishing an ability to really create a variety of different uses and development patterns within the area. Um, just going back a map, this was our comprehensive land use for the area. um the development areas that they've assigned neatly align I mean probably not neatly but they they are aligned with the land use recommendations from our comprehensive plan um by really more fine-tuning where those specific development things will apply uh but you can very clearly see the blue areas which are the employment areas that align with those business and industrial centers. Um, as you mentioned, the planning commission unanimously recommended approval of the MPD after their public hearing. Um, there were several neighbors in attendance at the meeting. Obviously, this affects a very large area. Um, different concerns were presented, one of which was based on the employment center that is immediately north of the neighborhood area um, on 31st Street on the west side. The applicant at the planning commission meeting offered up some additional development standards for that particular development area that were ultimately incorporated into the development plan. It included some more enhanced landscaping along 31st Street as well as some significant setbacks um specifically to data centers if a data center were to be proposed as a part of any of these industrial centers. Um, a lot of conversation, as you can imagine, was around the topic of data centers because right in the middle of all of this is project Anthem, um, which was formerly approved with an IIEL zoning district back in 2023. Uh but there was I think some confusion in the public about how project Anthem related specifically to this project and the development of this project but also concerns about future data centers and potential proposals within those industrial areas. So that was discussed that these were separate projects. However, there were areas within the MPD that would ultimately allow those uses and and that's I think where the applicant landed on creating some additional development standards. um they have a lot of required open space throughout the development. Um if you look at the aerial photography, you can see there are some lakes, some stripped lakes throughout this property um formerly mines that they intend to incorporate into this development and utilize as natural features. Uh they would like to develop around them, really make them amenities within the neighborhood areas that they're proposing. Um, and so that's all defined within the plan as well as requirements when they start coming in with with new subdivision plats that those areas will be reserved and and held at as open space. So there is a lot to this. It's a very large document. I'm happy to answer questions if if anyone has any. >> Um, I think I have two questions out the gate. One is so hypers scale data centers could go into just the blue parts. >> Let me go. >> Could you clarify? Is it? >> So, so the way our code defines data centers currently, they are a light industrial use. The areas in this development area map that would permit light industrial are the business and industrial centers which are outlined in the gray and the regional center which is the corridor along the turnpike and along uh 244 on the north side. >> Okay. And then >> is right? Yeah, Anthem is to the west of the turnpike, just north of that large business and industrial center on 31st Street. >> Okay. So, with current zoning, a lot of options. Um, and then I'm not since I we don't see a lot of, you know, master plan developments come through. This one has a specific date in it where it says like that the zoning will be effective, you know, I mean, obviously assuming our vote or whatever, but March 13th. Is that normal to say that in like to me that read as like kind of a contracty language thing like assuring someone for a project that this would happen on a certain date? >> Do you know where that reference is at? >> I don't remember. Sorry, I was like >> um there is never >> I thought >> nothing about this document would change the effectiveness of the ordinance, >> right? But why would we c is that normal to put that into language somewhere? >> Uh not typically. Um >> okay, sorry. I'll try to find where I saw that. >> Okay. We had some discussions with the applicant. One of the the requirements of a development plan is that within a certain period of time after it's adopted, they have to obtain a site plan approval for some part of the development plan in order to keep it active. Um, this was language that was added to our code during the update back in 2016 to ensure that if someone got like a PUD approved or a development plan approved that they never acted on that someone later couldn't come in and utilize that. So there was some language added to this MPD to say they have to get a site plan approval within a certain date. However, knowing the scale of this project, um there was some changes made to that timeline to ensure that the development plan wouldn't basically be removed if if certain areas weren't developed in that time period. >> Okay. So is since you mentioned that a lot of this has like a 20 to 40year span that's been proposed do we is there any specific we don't know if this is for any specific project out the gate >> they have not given us any specific project details at this time um the in fact they I think even said at the meeting that they currently do not have an imminent developer ready to go for any piece of this um this was something that they had worked on for a long time. They went through their own, they being the property owner, their own planning process for several years. They engaged the areas around them, the neighborhoods around them to ultimately come forward with this plan um to set the area up for development in the future. Uh as you all may be aware, there's been some significant investment in infrastructure to bring out to this this area. >> We did ARPA money, right? >> Yes. Um there was an ARC grant that did is delivering sanitary sewer to the area and this was intended to get the area prepared for ultimately development once all that infrastructure was in place um so that it could be taken advantage of and new development could occur. >> Anything was that that was a state offer >> 50 million. >> Yep. Anything else? Councelor Gilbert. >> Um, so as we're moving and building around us, are we looking at um public safety infrastructure also and boosting that up in those areas like where's the nearest fire station? >> Um, that's a good question. So, a lot of those assessments will be done at a time when something is proposed like a development actually moves forward. Um, there I believe is a fire station probably three four miles to the west of >> um however >> you think are you thinking a rolling hills maybe >> the title 19? >> Yeah. Well, that's not ours. >> It's not but there's interoper. Yeah, but still, I mean, as especially as we're putting residents and businesses out there, making sure that we have the >> we know that >> the safety infrastructure to respond. >> And we've been talking about that specifically as you build this out, you're going to have to take care of the other public safety aspects of this. Well, I mean, and anytime we we put in a new fire station or anything else, it it takes a a capital improvement >> package in order to include it to make sure that um we get it and or to hopefully make sure that we get it. Um, and so I was just making sure that we we follow this development as the next capital package is put together to make sure that we um build the infrastructure to go along with that development. >> Sure. >> And I would think I would think because this is within the proximity of the Port of Katusa, that fire station may look different from >> the other fire stations, >> right? But as long as it's in the city limits, I don't want us to depend on >> volunteer >> volunteer. Well, I love the volunteer departments. >> I know what you're mean, >> but u mutual aid, right? >> We should be able to have the infrastructure in place to respond to our residents and make them and making sure that they stay safe. >> This looks like it' be a micro city that could secede at some point. How this looks >> when I take the tour, I mean, it's it's huge. >> Yeah, it's a beautiful property. It is a beautiful property and I hate to see the ponies go. >> Yeah, there's a lot of kind of some adjacent eggland still. Councilor data. >> Yeah. So, I was looking through the uh backup materials and it looks like um the allowed uses are quite substantial. From um what I'm reading here, it looks like we have two three pages of allowed uses. That's a lot of um that's a lot of opportunity and a lot of room to kind of finagle um and to include in the future data centers which is addressed on uh page 23 about um whenever a data center is located in a business and industrial district a development area. So without um an understanding if and I've heard from a couple constituents regarding that particular issue without an understanding of um how we're going to go about creating housing and uh an area that will be uh good for families and children. I'm a little concerned to the uh vagueness of what the possibilities are for development especially of data centers going forward and I know that Anthem is wanting to expand um eastward from where they're at right now which would be >> west okay but it would still I'm sorry I get directionally challenged um which would still be within proximity of the development in general and so I have concerns about how that would affect populations of individuals especially families living in the area. >> Yeah. My two cents. >> Yeah. I will what I would say about just the list of uses. So within a master plan development like this the there is no tie to underlying zoning districts like we would typically see. So, what they've done is is bring in the use chart from our zoning code and define within their development areas where those specific uses would be allowed. Um, so it does look like a very long list, but it it is intended to basically create the zoning code for this entire property. Um, and so while it's a long list, you can see that throughout the six development areas, certain uses are restricted or prohibited in in different places, specifically the neighborhood centers and the village centers have a a much more restricted use list than you would find within the business and industrial centers. But yes, the the regional center, for example, does allow all the way up to a light industrial district and it and it is a >> a corridor that goes the length of the property from from South. Could you go back for that discussion to the um to the map that shows a little bit more of the other um zoning that's bordering it? >> That would be >> this one. >> So MD6. Yeah. >> Yeah. So right now with our current like I'm just curious because this was showing all along that corridor that you could under our current stuff >> put it like put data centers in and that could even go up basically against this residential area right now. So the yeah the the kind of L-shaped that's there on the north side of 31st Street west of the turnpike is one of the business and industrial centers. It is a devel a development area that's specifically called out that says if a data center locates within the business and industrial area adjacent to 31st Street that they apply a 250 foot additional setback to those uses within that development area. Um they also added some additional requirements for the um industrial areas that include higher levels of landscaping, screening, tree plantings, etc. Um with the you know concept being that some of those additional natural screens and buffers would help mitigate against any kind of obnoxious nearby. >> So then this area here that's designated for park and open space, is that what you're talking about? No, the so the area >> that would be >> that park and open space area you can see is actually carved out as as neighborhood center. >> Um it does not allow the industrial uses only the gray >> but it could neighbor. >> Yeah. It would be adjacent to the regional center and to the highway um as well as the regional centers which would probably be the most approximate. >> That's what we were talking about, right? >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. Anything else on this item? >> I suspect the um at your public hearing next week that the consultants will probably give you a much more indepth run through of the design standards they've incorporated, potentially even some additional exhibits to show you what those layouts might look like. um and can definitely address the changes that they've made up to this point for the industrial centers um to try and make sure that they do not become an issue for the areas designated for neighborhood uses. But um I anticipate they will have a much larger presentation provided. >> I'm looking at the chart uh the the legend one part says flood plane. Is there any what part of this is on the flood is in a flood plane? So, the very dark areas that kind of depict where the lake areas are. I should have there's an additional exhibit in the actual MPD that probably makes this much clearer. >> Um, that is their open space plans. If you look at page 8 in the MPD document, >> you can see that they've defined park open space as well as um civic spaces, sports areas, and then flood plane. And that green is is very much depicting where those flood plane areas are and what would be maintained as open space. >> Oh, I appreciate it. >> Soccer field. >> Yeah, good. >> I think I mean they they've listed sports center. >> So >> that's usually where soccer >> soccer fields. I was gonna name it's it's all >> I'm just being I'm just >> kind of made a good representation of what it might feel like like another city that feels >> Yeah. Well, it seems like that's the long range focus beautiful plan. My kind of my impression of this is that a lot of the neighborhood village center stuff is very perspective and we'll see and that there's more I would assume more immediate business interests coming in first which I understand why those tend to anchor things like this but it just seems like maybe we do this and we'll have a hypers scale data center somewhere here and then maybe in 20 or 40 years they'll do the rest like I don't know it's just I'm just guessing. But this full develop is kind of what young people are looking at for the future where everything is centric to them. They can live, work, and play. That's why people like all in the same place. It's all walkable, bikable. >> I hope they do this. >> That's what they wanted. And what our young people want is a future development. >> Yeah. It's just legacy. >> Yeah. I hope they actually do that part as well. I just >> Yeah. or do you want to start >> just out of respect to memory of Joe Robinson I have to say this >> um this original design was actually for the housing retail sectoring >> the business part of this was just to help to get the infrastructure to drive that development so from the very beginning is to drive to create this kind of beautiful city with neighborhoods walkability >> great >> and the commercial part actually was a means to get what we need to make that happen. So, yeah, just wanted to respect Joe's initial idea in that process. >> 100%. >> Yep. Wonderful. Thank you. >> Um, >> are there any other questions? >> Yeah. And I appreciate that clarification. Um, okay. We are on agenda item seven. Thank you so much. >> Appreciate it. Um resolution authorizing payment of $4,500,000 to Corey Aesen plaintist and Levy and Levy attorneys at law from the sinking fund as a payment of a judgment and attorney fee awarded in case number 21 CV286 Cory Aerson versus City of Tulsa at all. This has the emergency clause. >> Good morning councilors. Chad Becker from Treasury. uh here as always to provide your assurance that there is sufficient cash in the syncing fund to pay this judgment ahead of the levy placement on the tax roles. Judgement has been approved by the court and the mayor and council's approval financial issue payment to the claimant and forward all the necessary paperwork to the county to levy repayment to the sinking point. And Mr. Bond is here from city legal to discuss the case. I lost bond with city legal. Uh this as you may recall is the case uh it's a wrongful conviction case stem from the 1990 murder of James Lane. Um this is one that uh we have discussed extensively in executive session and the council approved u the settlement in this case and I'm happy to answer any any questions that you might have about it. Is this the last part of this case since it's the attorney fees? >> Yes, this is this is yeah both the the judge the entire settlement um attorney fees interest um everything is all uh in this payment. >> What's the total that we've paid out leading up to this part so far as well? This is the only uh payment in this case. >> Okay. >> 4.5 million. >> I thought we had already made a payout to Cory Ashes. >> You approved the settlement. This is taking the payment from the syncing fund. So, it's a it's the next step of what you've already approved. No, I understand that process, but I'm saying I thought that we had already done this entire process once before on this case and I I was assuming that this entire amount was for his attorneys given a second. That's that's not the case. >> No, this is this is >> the full amount the full amount of what was approved. >> Scott, I mean thinking of Scott and Carpenter, which is a different case but related parties. So, was it another aden? >> No, >> there was a comm's director to the governor with that last name or a similar one. Maybe that's why the name is there's a comm's director like the in the governor's office with a similar last name. Maybe that's why the name's familiar. >> I don't know. I'm like trying to guess. Um, >> a lot to >> I know we've had a lot of I know a lot of settlements and lawsuits. Yeah. So this is 4 million. >> 4.5. >> Yeah. 4.5 million. >> Wow. >> Did I have to say that? >> Guess the Did you say the bottom of the thing? >> Okay. >> No, I didn't. I didn't even render a guess. >> Okay. >> 87.7. >> What? >> 87.7. >> Any other inquiries on this one? Okay. Um, thank you. We are on agenda item eight. Um, switching gears quite a bit. Um, resolution requesting quality event designation from the 2026 National Reigning Breeders Classic to be held April 14th to 25th, 2026, identifying the city of Tulsa as the events host community. This has the emergency clause. >> Uh, Patty Crower, the regional tourism division at Tulsa Regional Gamer. Um, and I'm here on behalf of national rating for years classes. It just um transitioned show operations last year and the new operator is actually not local, so they weren't able to be here, but I'm helping them learn how to use our quality event incentive for the state and guiding them through the process. So, I know they provided um in advance uh an overview of the event, but this is one of our first ecoin shows of the season starting on April 14th out at Expo Square. And um they they moved here in 23 after being in Texas for over 20 years. >> Took it stole it from Texas. >> Sure. >> That's what matters most. >> So yeah, the um the quality of incentive is a really important part of that. They were using Texas's incentive fund before. So their ability to use ours is now part of what's here. Great. Any followup questions? All right, we are on Thank you. Agenda item nine. Man, we have such a diversity of topics today. All right, agenda item nine. Um, this was um read last week as well, an ordinance related to animal services and regulations for commercial animal establishments. um a type C license by adding an exemption for nonprofits and providing criminal fines and or imprisonment for violations of this section. It has the emergency clause and we have Sherry Carrier with us. >> Good morning. Um first of all like to apologize that this had to be pushed one week. That's totally my fault. So my apologies. Um this is adding a type C. There's already an A and B will exempt the nonprofits. example would be Humane Society of Tulsa, Tulsa SPCA so that they don't have to worry about these requirements. Um, we will have to go if this is approved back to the animal welfare commission to actually put a license fee on this. Um, we'll be proposing a yearly fee. The A and B license are a little bit different. Um, for type A, it's $300. Currently, the renewal is 200. Type B is 500, renewal is 300. Um, if this passes is approved, we'll go back. We'll ask for probably a a yearly $1,000 fee for this. Um, we are definitely in an overpopulation crisis with animals in Tulsa, the city limits and a lot of Oklahoma's facing the same things. Um, there was a proposed House Bill 4055 that was addressing animal breeding, but was defeated in committee. Um, so there's some restrictions that the city of Tulsa has for rooting that you can't do it in a residential area for zoning code reasons. And um we're just really trying to um I I I can tell you that we won't be able to physically police this necessarily, but we will be able to respond. And this gives us more tools to use and the ability to uh actually stop some of this from happening for the backyard breeding >> to out of curiosity. Oh, sorry. Actually, councelor Gilbert question. So Sherry, just um if you could kind of elaborate a little bit more on it. So this is um if if I wanted to start my own pet store and and breed dogs, I would have to come and get a license at the city of Tulsa, right? That's correct. Okay. And there would be probably multiple here for that type A. >> No. So C would cover the act of breeding. And so by definition and by what's actually being proposed, um breeding itself can be for a fee or for not a fee. Um so whether you are charging or you're not charging, you're still required if you are actively in the process >> of breeding an animal, um you have to have this license, >> right? So, if I um if my uh if my dog accidentally had puppies um and if I wanted to go to a big box store parking lot and sell them, would I have to have that license as well? >> Yes, there's an exception. >> It's a $1,200 fine and six months in jail. This also um eliminates a rehoming fee online. So, people wouldn't be able to do that. They can rehome the animals which we encourage but the the fee would not be permitted. >> Thank you. >> That was good sets of questions. Um what did you call it? Rehoming. What is that? >> Rehoming. So like if somebody has an accidental litter or whether they had intentional or not um they'll resort to Facebook, Craigslist, any multitude uh next door >> and then they charge a rehoming fee which is basically the new polite way of saying I'm going to make you pay for this puppy >> without just coming out and saying it because Yeah. Um because if you were to say I'm selling you this animal, then you start to dabble over into now you're operating a commercial business out of a residential area. So it was kind of a way to start to sidestep the zoning code. this is actually going to close that loop um to where it in Tulsa you have the required licensing and be in the properly zoned area not backyard breeding out of your house or you don't do it at all. So if if someone has a dog, they get out like they do when they're in heat, come back pregnant, then that owner has to >> it would require them to >> if they don't want to keep all those pups, >> it would require them to surrender them either to an animal rescue organization or the shelter, >> not sell them to anyone. >> Correct. >> Okay. >> Would they then get f I'm sorry. >> No, go ahead. Would they then get fined for not having their animal spayed? >> Good. >> Yeah. >> And if they rehome or surrender those like to a SPCA or HST, then they would be able to charge a fee because they're exempt from this being a nonprofit >> council. They can >> they'll be able to do what? >> Charge an adoption fee. >> Charge an adoption. I'll sell the public. Okay. Well, and that'll I mean it just really recoups the cost that they have for vaccinations, spay neuter, all the other costs that go with that associated with it. >> Council, >> we're going to have more dogs at the shelter because of this. >> Like, let's just go down councelor Harper's questioning, >> which we know surrendering pets to the shelter can yield. >> Unfortunately, at least then we're able to ensure that if they go through either nonprofit or through the city shelter, we're at least able to ensure that those animals are sterilized prior to going back out into the community. Currently, you have no way of being able to police that. So, if they're being rehomed online, we're basically just continuing to propagate this issue in Tulsa of not addressing sterilization because they're not going through a reputable uh organization to have those services done. So if this were high impact, just to follow that line of thinking, if this is a act, if this is a high impact policy, you might have maybe an initial influx, but then if it's successful and you have more animals that are getting spayed and neutered, it would then decline. >> There's an influx now. >> Well, of course, but I'm I'm wondering if Councelor Lean's question, it could lead to more of a surge temporarily. And when when we have people that are surrendering puppies now, I mean, we do offer spayneuter services, spay services for animals that have had those litters um just to keep them from doing it again. And I think that um I don't know what the numbers would be the difference, but it's happening now. It could impact it, but I can't see it impacting it hardly any more than it is right now because it's it's just bad. Yeah. >> Oh, sorry. Go ahead. >> I was trying to figure out the math on this. I mean, you started by saying you're over capacity and then it seems like we're going to end up with more of these smaller dogs generally, which is going to maybe put you temporarily over over capacity. Um, which is going to lead lead to bad outcomes maybe for some of the animals if you just have to do something. So, I I get what you're trying to do. Just don't know if I have been able to put my full head around it yet to understand the repercussions and what individuals will do with their animals um in lie of selling them or rehoming them. So, they're either going to bring them to the shelter or they could give them away. You give them away, right? >> Is giving them away for zero dollars a problem? That's rehoming >> for giving them away. >> Correct. >> So that's >> So that's a violation and you can get a $1,200 fine or is >> No, >> no, you wouldn't be able to charge a fee for that. >> No, that's why that's what I'm saying. 0. >> Yeah. >> So you just give them away. Is there any repercussion for the giver? >> No. >> Okay. No violation. But if they charge a dollar, then there is a problem. >> Okay. If they create a nonprofit through which they give these animals, then there's no violation. So I just go create a nonprofit. I mean create a nonprofit business location. >> Why do you have to have a business location or we're going to have a nonprofit? >> There's a zoning code for residential. You can't be backyard breeding. >> So animal husbandry is a use within the zoning code. >> I'm just talking about these accidental cases. Even then, I mean, the overall intention is to have even an accidental litter go through. I mean, yes, you can give them away for no fee. >> Y, >> but it's really to kind of push to one, the entire nonprofit or animal welfare community, so to speak, to step up. To be honest, puppies are easy to get on out of state transports. Doesn't matter where you are in the United States, everybody wants puppies. And so, being able to get into uh having other more viable outcomes. Right now, our biggest overpopulation issue is our bigger dogs. We we very seldomly have any issues with small puppies because we can send them by by treasure troves to other states on transport because everybody wants them. Um so >> so you're saying if you get them into the shelter, you can get them out of the shelter pretty quickly. >> They're a lot easier to move out of the shelter environment than your >> 80 lb pit bull that we just found running down the street. Yeah. So, I guess in my brain I I'm just and I, as I told you, I was just doing this with numbers, but if you have if you have the capacity and you can't get rid of those little dogs quickly enough, then you're going to have to get rid of the older dogs probably. And I just think of bad outcomes for those older dogs versus the younger dogs based upon the amount of time that they spend in that facility. But not being able to regulate puppies like regulating their sterilization is those bigger dogs you're talking about >> and that's the problem that we're having now >> and that's why we have at risk list twice a week. So, this is not this is not going to solve everything. Like, we're trying to do different things that are kind of wraparound services to try and do as much as we can for a crisis overpopulation problem here. >> So, there's really not one answer. This is just another tool that we can use just like the spayneuter um vouchers that we have, you know, and some other things that we've done, the free services, the clinics that we're offering with our partners who are getting funding to do this. Like this has to be met in different ways for different circumstances and this is another tool that we can use to do that. other cities are using this tool or other cities just have flat bands on them >> like Midwest City I think is one there there are several cities in Oklahoma that just flat you cannot breed within our city limits >> we understand that as a bigger municipality it being authorized through the state through the department of a that we didn't feel that a outright ban was appropriate but instead said having a way for the city to establish a license. Ensure that people are qu doing if you're going to breed, do it quality. Like I mean, >> yeah, I have no problem with people who want to breed, >> which is I'm not a fan of them. your doodles and everything else that everybody wants to pay two, three, four, $10,000 for, okay? But you need to do it responsibly. And really where this comes in is it helps us to start attacking the problem long-term of all the accidental litters that just kind of flitter away through Facebook or wherever else continuing to be the recurring problem because one dog turns into four or five then the next time that they become 6 months of age and are able to become the heat then the next thing we're or four or five. So, we just continue to pyramid out. >> That's exactly >> And the puppies don't come in one at a time normally. I mean, we have a grocery cart full of eight to 10. >> So, it's worked. >> Following up on your question >> and then I have done it. >> Oh, it's worked in the other cities. >> Has it been effective or I guess it just pushes >> actually. I think it's subject of a state law. right now that they're trying to actually >> change. >> Yeah. Make it where municipalities cannot issue an outright ban. >> So, >> little bit of forward thinking that we're not trying to just immediately have our own ordinance overturned by a state law. >> Take away. >> Okay. I had Den and then Gilbert and then myself. >> Okay. Thank you. So, um, to what councelor Lincoln was saying, I just want to reiterate that we have a robust, um, rescue, we have robust rescue organizations here in Tulsa that frequently pull animals out of Tulsa Animal Welfare. And the idea that it's going to create an escalation in the population at Tulsa Animal Welfare, I think is is not necessarily going to add up in that once Tulsa Animal Welfare gets these puppies these animals, they are given vaccinations and they're also spayed and neutered. whereas if you're selling or giving away puppies, you're contributing to more populations coming down the pipe. And so having measures and policy and ordinances in place to find those situations, I think is going to be the tool that we need to go forward to start making a dent in the situation, the population. And I know that um to um to Tulsa Animal Services and the outreach that you all do and the spay and neuter clinics that you all have been a part of and have set up through partnerships have been phenomenal. So, I want to just also bring that to the forefront and acknowledge and amplify that we are in a time right now to give as much support to Tulsa Animal Services to continue down this path of being able to minimize the populations uh that we see. And so I think the puppy situation as has been said they are much easier to fix and transport. I know through rescues they actually will go get puppies and those are usually the first that hit transport into other states um northern states normally where they have really strict animal welfare rules and uh spay and neuter. So, um I just want to amplify that I'm extremely happy with the situation and the ordinances that we are compiling to find people for being irresponsible. >> So, I just want to say thank you for all the work, all the hard work that you guys have put into it. And >> thank you. And just to ping off of what you said, the I mean our diversion efforts have really escalated and our partnerships out of state and instate have grown significantly over the last three years. So it's given us the ability to do more to get animals out of that facility. I I just wanted to also add that with budget season um I'm going to do my best to amplify the need for more people to support your new shelter. >> Okay. I had counselor Gilbert tiny question. >> So I'm going to go down uh counselor Leaken's rabbit hole >> uh or puppy hole, whatever we want to call it. Um, and so if I were to bring in a litter of puppies um to animal welfare, right? Um, you would then, um, write me a citation. >> So, first we're going to have a educated conversation with you of would you like to prevent your female dog from having another litter? And if the answer to that question is no, then absolutely. Okay, that's what I wanted to get at because I wanted to make sure that as I'm bringing in six puppies to you on uh today that later on in in the summer that I'm not bringing you six more puppies. >> No, we have those conversations now and we have been assisting people >> that have those problems that are surrendering puppies to to get their animal sterilized. So, >> it it It has grown, I think, probably even over the last year, especially since we started the the voucher program. >> Yeah. >> And I think it will continue to grow. >> Okay. One quick followup. >> Yes. >> I can't afford. So, I bring in the dog. You tell me that I can't afford to get my female dog spayed. Um, do we have options, referral options? >> Yeah, we we will actually do that if we can. >> Yeah. I mean, it it's >> so there's really no excuse. I mean I mean >> SP okay does it for very minimal pricing. The Tulsa SPCA does it for very minimal pricing the $30 voucher. So and even whenever we initiated the voucher program we even followed up with saying like even if $30 is going to be the difference between you eating for the next week >> and getting your animal sterilized well bring your animal to Tulsa Animal Services. We'll work it in the schedule and we'll wave the $30 requirement. Like it it is on a case by case basis. We do take that >> and our partners that seriously said they would help also. >> That's what I thought and recall. But I just wanted >> Yeah. I just wanted to make sure that we're um again that we're getting the the information out there that we're not wanting to continue to bring us puppies. that the first time you bring us a a litter of puppies that this is it. We want to have this conversation with you and we need to make sure that this doesn't >> Yeah. Our diversion coordinator, she's she's awesome and she has those conversations on a daily basis of people that want to surrender puppies literally. >> Okay. >> Um as just a quick, this is just a curiosity. You mentioned that there was a state law that died in committee. Do we know what specifically ma do we know why it didn't make it out of committee like or what the >> it was referred to agriculture committee and I just checked today and it was defeated but >> it was going to limit um from possessing 10 females to three um and it would have a non-commercial breeder state license required after the three m three female dogs. >> Um but again >> effort commercial kicked in. >> So currently commercial set at 10 breeding females or >> it was going to reduce that threshold to three. >> Okay. So >> so it doesn't quite accomplish what we're >> I mean it's still still the same issue just less number of female dogs but um and still same requirements for a city like how it's zoned that you can't do it in a residential area. Okay, that'll be interesting if at some point someone gets to see what the committee discussion looked like to see what was >> and there were some other things in there regarding they had a fee schedule. They were going to uh add a foster fee. We recommended that they didn't and they initially took that out because we wouldn't want to charge someone to be a foster and help get animals out of the facility and try to get them out. So, >> um, >> you know, maybe they'll come back and maybe they'll add some better significant language with it that'll go through. >> Yeah. >> And I will just as a followup say the ordinance as as part of the application. You have to have a commercial breeders license if it's required. It doesn't wholly limit to once we you meet the state threshold that this ordinance kicks in. This ordinance is in effect the second you start breeding animals. So whether you have to have a state license or you don't have to have a state license, that is irrelevant to our city ordinance. >> Okay. >> You still were going to be required to have a type C license. >> Council Gilbert, >> does this sorry to keep hashing out at this, but does this only pertain to uh cats and dogs? I mean, does it also pertain to like guinea pigs, rabbits? >> I mean, I'm just wondering. I mean, not that we have a problem of over >> Let's spay and neuter every animal in God's graveyard. >> Well, I mean, there are people that do small animals for >> Yeah. >> I mean, maybe I've gone down the hole too far. >> Now you're talking about committing suicide if you're when they're >> when they're bored. It's got dark. Okay, bring it back. >> I'm just I know that somebody's going to ask that question and I'm not going to be able to answer that. So, >> I think the intent was cats and dogs. >> Cats and dogs right now >> and that's where we have significant issues. >> Yeah, >> we do get other animals, but they're not an overpopulation problem. >> Right. >> It's overpop populated bunnies in my yard that's eating my bed. >> I know, but those are the curious. Oh, there. >> Well, let's not bring up also that person with all the bunnies in the yard. >> Okay, here. >> So, who has the authority to write a $1,200 citation? >> Police to do that. Will you all? >> We would have that authority because it's under title two. But anytime it's not a preset fine, it's not like we're writing you a ticket and saying your fine is $1,200. It's actually booked to the municipal court. So it does require a court appearance and then from there the municipal court and the prosecutor's office takes over. That is just the max. >> But that's just the max. So you all won't write citations >> up to write citations but it will be booked to court. So the fine and whatever ultimate outcome for that citation will be deemed by a municipal judge and by the court. >> So if someone comes, it's their first time. You said you're going to have that conversation. You probably say, "Okay, you need to if they get their dog or or animal sterilized at that moment, then walk away. No, no harm, no foul." But you're saying if it continues to happen, is that when you would site them to court? >> So, basically, you show up to our door with six puppies. We're going to take the six puppies and have a very straightforward conversation with you of one, your animals are required to be spayed or neutered inside the city limits of Tulsa. Two, if you choose not to sterilize your animal and you go back and have another litter because we're going to also advise you that if you're going to breed, you have to have a type-C license. You are now one, if you tell us flat, no, we're going to write you a sterilization ticket, right? Then >> at the at the first time >> at the first time. Okay? Because >> if you don't have the breeders license, then you have no reason to be possessing an unsterilized female and you can take that up with the municipal court if you wish to fight it. But we will educate you on a type-c license. So if you don't get your animal sterilized and then we come into contact with you again after that conversation, we're then going to write you another citation for operating commercial animal establishment without a license. And that will be a booked to court. And that's whenever you're the $1,200 fine 6 months ago is a possibility. >> Okay. H how do you determine ownership? >> So by the >> or that may seem Yeah, that may seems like a crazy question. >> No, you saw it cuz it >> I just found these dogs on the side of the road. >> Yeah. >> Well, especially there's so many I don't know about you all. My neighborhood has like neighborhood animals. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> This is cat. I don't even know what it is. >> Well, yeah. We know you're a cat person though. >> No, I am not. >> I am not. >> She has there and >> you know I I feed it. I don't know if it's a boiler. He won't come anywhere near me. And that's good cuz I don't like >> But you love feeding my cat. >> Sorry, but I feed him. >> Is that considered my cat? Do I need to stop feeding him? >> Yeah. >> I'm not going to be >> the way to feed that cat. Actually, we >> because I'm not fixing to get this >> work through this kind of some. >> The way that the ordinance is written is oftent times it refers to owner, harbor, possessor. So, >> and Jack, I think you're the one that actually gave us the direction on this, so correct me if I'm wrong. An owner means like I've claimed ownership. It's microchipped in some way, shape, or form. We're able to establish. Yes. >> You got vet records. >> But if you harbor or possess it, so >> then you're into like it lives at your house. You're taking care of it. Like that's whenever you start to dabble into harbor or possessor. >> Yeah. I don't know where you live. >> You said dabble. >> Some awful subject. >> And I would also like to apologize for mischaracterizing you as a cat person. I did not. That was you rebuked that. So caused me to clarify. >> We do have people that find stray animals all the time. We have people that find litters like in the park, you know, those kinds of things and people that are going to surrender in a different category and we schedule appointments for those folks to be able to have these conversations that Colton referred to. So um we can pretty much decipher the difference and when we get those phone calls. Um, but some people do show up. I mean, that's probably going to continue to happen that they found I was at the park. I found four puppies in a box. I found um a kennel full of 12 puppies on the side of the road. I mean, it happens. >> That was a good clarifying question. >> Okay. Anything else on this one? Think we learned a lot. I just want to be the cat. >> Oh, >> and I appreciate that you're not trying to get stuck with it. I know. >> Cat. >> The cat. >> Okay. Are we hers? >> She wasn't named. >> Well, we know counselor Bengal will pursue taking in cats as needed. Um, >> yeah. And I know that we all have trouble imagining how anyone could let the animals be given up to be outside. Okay, we are on agenda item 10, I think. Um, all right. Uh, this is actually this is the um racing reckless driving uh ordinance I brought to the table last week. it's back on our agenda um because of just some um kind of language that was discussed afterwards uh with people that's bolstering it a bit more um legally and I wanted to make make sure that we were all aware of before voting on this tonight. Um the core of this hasn't changed that you know of course maintains and includes the amendment that we discussed last week about making it impoundment for 10 days. Um as you all may know there was another uh fatality collision two days ago. So, I'm glad we're urgently addressing this. Um, but I'll let uh Jack with legal describe some of the additional amendments that make this a bit uh more airtight legally for us that were discussed after our committee meeting yesterday. So, it's back on to >> share some of those. This also includes adding kind of a um a hardship clause where someone could have it reduced if there's extreme hardship presented to the hearing officer. >> Right. So there were there were questions and concerns raised after the the meeting and discussion last week about uh due process and due process provisions after a vehicle is impounded. So um we uh took those comments and have gone in and as councelor said shored up those due process provisions. So you'll see highlighted in red there that a due process hearing has to be conducted within 5 days after the request for a hearing time in which it is received and then the administrative hearing officer will determine whether probable cause existed for the citation or arrest and whether early release of the vehicle is warranted under the following subsection of this section. So we added some provisions um uh in the case in which uh the driver is different than the owner um for example. So if um the registered owner is not the driver at the time and did not knowingly permit the unlawful use or continued empowerment in the administrative hearing officer's determination is not reasonably necessary to continue to abate the nuisance or if extreme hardship exists. So, if this is the owner's only vehicle and the vehicle was taken without the owner's consent and used for racing, then the owner can um petition the administrative hearing officer for an early release of the vehicle before the expiration of the 10-day period uh for this extreme hardship, you know, to get to work or for whatever reason it's required. So, we added these again just to shore up the due process provisions um after a vehicle's impounded on the basis of a citation or an arrest and an officer's finding of probable cause. >> Yeah. Councelor Bush vehicle definition. Does that include motorcycles? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's right. You weren't here last week. Yes. Very much so. Yeah. >> 21st Street. >> Yes. Yeah. Um, any other follow questions? Yeah, counselor. >> So, sorry I wasn't here last week either because I was not feeling well. >> I could do a summary overview if that's helpful. >> Yeah, but just real quick. Um, so with the um if they can show hardship of not that they have to have their cycle to get to work um and they get their cycle back. I mean, there's still fines attached, >> correct? >> On the underlying violations. >> Yes. Yes. >> Okay. >> Or also they would have to pay, would they also have to if it had been impounded for a few days and they get it released early, they'd still have to also pay to to get it out. >> Yeah. So, there's still those on top of the city fines. >> Cryler. >> Yeah. to that. Councelor Gilbert, I think also um we do have a public transportation system and I think that even if they do prove a hardship >> absolutely >> you know I mean buy a bus pass I guess until get it out of impound. >> Yeah, just to um do like a really really quick kind of overview or things related to this policy since I know two of our colleagues were here were voting on this tonight. Um, you know, this is just adding right now someone could drive extremely recklessly, well over the speed limit, very intentionally, driving dangerously, racing, etc. We all know how loud that is as well. >> Causes almost half of fatal collision fatality collisions in our city. Um, and then they could get cited, go to jail, get out and get their car back right away. And studies have shown um that one of the only things that actually changes that behavior is vehicle empoundment. Um, and so that was kind of that was that discussion and >> fingers crossed. >> Yeah. Well, and part of this also helps with the whole issue of they can't and it's obviously unsafe to pursue vehicles. This means that they can see a license plate and then go and work to address it more safely without having to pursue the vehicle. So, um Okay. Any other Perfect. Yeah. Yes. Um All right. Well, in that case, we are on item 11. We are adjourned.