origal fure yet so you may Jo the priv on like Sarah for yeah good evening and welcome good evening and welcome to the Monday February we have fun here at the oral Town Council um welcome to the MonDay 20 uh February 24th meeting of the Oro Town Council uh roll call shows that we have a full compliment we have Council Baker councilor Powers councelor Kenny Council dearit councelor Powers uh Council marks Council Hardison but we don't have um councilor larway yet I haven't heard from him um on his plans for this evening and uh our town manager Clint desan is uh taking some personal time away from the office so we have Mitch Stone our assistant Town manager is as expected sitting in for him at the end of the dis uh second item on our agenda is always AG agenda review where we list out the items that have been referred to committee and uh for the public and for reminders for the council and staff we also ask at this point if there anybody if there are any additions that anyone would like to add to the council agenda um and those require a unanimous agreement to add something at this point to an agenda Council Baker uh yes there wasn't anything attached but uh the names of 25 38 2539 no they're not uh of 39 and 40 are the exact same where are we uh 2539 and 2540 yeah um NOP they're not we get one is the are you on the mic please I'm not sorry um so 2539 is the Draft Town Council 360 degree performance survey and 2540 is the Draft Town manager 360 degree performance surve so there's just one word difference there okay anything else on the agenda okay we'll move on to item sorry I have two different copies here uh move on to item three for approval of minutes of February 10th 2025 I'll take a motion moved second Mo and seconded any discussion okay uh all those in favor signify by I'll abstain because I wasn't here okay all perfect we have four approvals two abstains and so the minutes are uh approved item number four is public comment uh this is an opportunity to provide the oral Town Council with feedback this is for anything that's not on on our agenda um is there anyone who'd like to join us for public comment this evening hi welcome if You' please introduce yourself yes and push the button light was on hi my name is Aaron Lanigan I have been a residence here for almost 20 years um and I live on still one Avenue and I would like to bring to your attention a problem that I believe is becoming more and more dangerous when I moved here originally still the Water Avenue was used by a as a backroad by locals only um I was here for the roundabout Improvement which I appreciate very much as it has absolutely cut down on accidents and I would also like to add uh and express my appreciation for the attention and long hours SP working on Main Street by all of you um since living here the amount of traffic that uses still water has grown not 45 seconds go by during the day in which a car usually comes from Bangor off often followed by a line of seven or eight cars at night before 2 am that time lapse goes to about a minute and a half on average there are no pull-offs there is no side around the road bikers and Walkers are not safe and I have taught two children to no longer turn left into our driveway but to go around the roundabout and come back to make it a right turn unfortunately even that is not safe anymore as just this morning a very large big black truck passed me on a double yellow line to avoid slowing down there is a school bus pickup across the street from my house and it is right after a curve although my children are grown now I made the choice never to allow them to use the school bus after my youngest and I almost got hit standing in our own driveway while giving my Elder son uh a ride on the school bus one morning my neighbors have been HIIT from behind trying to turn left into their driveway as well as multiple rear ending accidents many that did not result in police contact the new apartment building has not increased traffic it has however increased the like hood that somebody will get hit I have two suggestions either lower the speed limit to 35 on Stillwater Avenue this is the one thing that we can control as a town on a highway managed Road I understand that it does not control how fast people drive my hope is that speeding would become 45 instead of 65 and that most people would choose to drive 35 or take the highway which is what I think they are trying to avoid in my Layman opinion most people who are driving through are not local drivers they are driving from Bangor to Oldtown or Beyond which I know as I have often followed the car I pulled out behind all the way through to Oldtown we see semis coming through in business Vehicles daily it takes an equal amount of time to drive from Walmart on Hogan Road to the freeway entrance as it does to drive the entirety of Still Water to The Still Water exit at IGA 8 minutes in case you are wondering the second option is a bit more expensive but what we can choose to promote Still Water Avenue as a thorough fair this would not be my choice but I am willing to consider it this would require the highway department um uh involving the highway department and widening the road giving folks an option to pull off in order to avoid an accident it would also help address the the flooding that seems to be increasing all along Still Water not just down by the bog as well as allowing bikers and pedestrians to use the road safely I understand that choosing to live outside of town limits is a choice that comes with fewer Services we choose to use a well and have a septic we choose not to have sidewalks and not to have neighbors that we can access easily I'm not asking for any of those things to be addressed I am trying to make you aware of what I consider a highly dangerous situation that although it has not require has not resulted in a death yet it will I would like for the council to consider still water as a danger it is and act accordingly thank you excellent thank you very much for those comments are there any other public comments for the council okay thank you for that um next up on our agenda is item five presentation discussion items we're going to have a discussion presentation on the 360 degree evaluation process led by the nominations evaluations and Council policies committee Council marks um thank you um I think that you all have seen uh on Council the documentation that came around um on this topic with the agenda um I'm gonna ask in a minute for Cody to go ahead and put the report up on the screen so we can scroll through a little together and make sure if there's questions people have time to ask them um before that I just wanted to highlight that um there the first item attached is a memo from our town manager who was not not able to be here today but who is part of the knap committee he is the staff liaison to neap and participated in all of the meetings that led to the um uh recommendation document that you've all received um Cody you want to go ahead and put it up on the screen thank you um the first part of this really just highlights for everyone the process the um nup committee uh five times that includes oh um yep if you go up it's a little higher up Cody um way up at the top we met five times that includes myself councelor Laray and councelor Baker and Clint desan Our Town manager um we also did ask for written recommendation memos the first of these the full Council received from Dr berol back in September when she was still serving on Council so that already has gone to the council before but it's reattached here um with her recommendations as uh a data analyst herself um she did the analysis of our um data collected and surveys for our town manager search and uh she kindly did that as she was stepping down from Council as a free service to us to just pass on her um research and recommendations and then we had uh an addendum attached from superintendent Higgins and the board president Migel for the RSU um and also Clint spoke in person with Meredith uh they had a personal conversation The Following part after this I we're going to scan through quickly unless anyone has specific questions this is a list of principles that over our five meetings and reading these various reports and talking with each other as a committee we kept track as we were going of various recommendations that made sense to us that we wanted to agree would be principles that we would follow as we were making the recommendations out to council so I think you can unless Council has any questions on those I think those are just the underlying assumptions we were basing our schedule recommendations and process recommendations off of and they come from those other reports along with conversations in the committee everyone feel good to actually move beyond that Council wise okay um then if we get to the First Council vote this is being presented to you in a series of votes um as we worked on this we realized there were a series of questions Council needed to answer I guess I should start by by saying that it's in our uh Town manager's contract that we will conduct 360 performance surveys of both the town manager and ourselves that's a commitment that we made when we hired him both to him and to the community that we would um engage in that process um so we were asked as a committee to come back to the full council with a recommended schedule and process for how to do that so in these Pages here you will see a written breakdown of the steps we're recommending for each survey the town manager performance survey and the Town Council performance survey um if you go to the next page is the one I'm really looking for Cody with the grid I think this is the easiest way to see how those steps fit together um they overlap a bit I would like to point out that the schedule and the fall is what we are recommending to council um for a variety of reasons uh because um we felt and it was in the uh recommendation from the international city and county Managers Association ikma um that we not conduct surveys until the town manager had been here a full year which will happen this summer also um in various sources recommended that the performance survey that goes out to staff and the community in a full 360 performance survey not happen at the same time that council is doing its formal evaluation where we set salary so the recommendation was to separate those by six months to run the performance survey in the fall which is when we do a six-month check-in with our town manager and not to run it in the spring which is when we do our formal evaluation of the Town manager write a formal evaluation letter for his file and set salary um so most of this schedule was built off of those stipulations in order to do that and to get the surveys done in the fall um this was the schedule that worked as you can see there's more meetings that happen after the town manager survey because those discussions have to happen in executive session they are confidential Personnel information when it's regarding an employe um so there's a series of executive sessions that would be recommended the first one would be for the council to meet without the town manager in executive session to discuss the performance survey response data and also to organize our own six month feedback on the town manager's performance then at a different date a second meeting in October there'd be a second executive session with the town manager to jointly discuss those responses um and in between the survey data would have been delivered to the town manager at least a week before that discussion so that looks it's a few more meetings um when you look on the council side Council survey data is public information and it will be talked about in a public council meeting there don't have to be a series of executive sessions and Personnel rules followed the raw survey data is recomm recommended to go out to the counselors and then Council looks at that data and then we have an open council meeting discussion where we each talk out loud about what we took from that survey data and what we're learning about how um the community and the staff and everyone feels like we're doing on the promises that we made um so this is just the schedule this is not looking at what the surveys would look like and the first vote would really be to accept this schedule and process um anyone have questions on the schedule it's up on the screen up there too up High um I guess I should point out that it was suggested that it would be important not to talk about the survey data in public until after the November election because we wouldn't ever want to be seen in any way to be trying to influence an election by any discussion that was happening so that is actually why we're doing the town man survey first because those discussions happen in executive session behind closed doors whereas the Town Council survey happens in an open meeting and we wouldn't want to have that meeting until after the election I had one observation thank you Council marks and thank you to the committee for all the work that went into this um I had a question about I just more an observation under the schedule where we talk about the town manager salary set as part of an annual budget process um the manager's bud man the manager salary is set by contract agreement so this would be and I don't want to create the impression that this would be um an opportunity to in any way disadvantage the town manager as part of a process but in terms of like Cola adjustments or performance-based adjustments this would be an opportunity for us to have those conversations thank you Dan for that important clarification I also think it's important to note that um we were told in our our committee discussions um by staff that typical practice is to put into our proposed budget the same kind of Co like increase that's happening for other staff on the town manager line and then as these discussions happen later that might be adjusted up or down but it that's not the intention the intention is that you know that will be part of that process does that help okay Leo question yes um thanks for all this you guys have done a ton of work on this so appreciate that um so this isn't on the schedule so maybe I shouldn't but but I am I am trying to understand is the whole anonymous piece is kind of strange for me I I understand it but at the same time it feels like it opens people specifically I guess a town manager up to people that might would take pop shots and not be identified so but but I don't think there's any way around it I guess and I think that's how the the school is doing it with the superintendent and the council correct it just it just feels a little funny to me that anybody can anybody or nobody you know who knows but you know they they're supposed to identify whe what their connection ction is to the town so there's that piece but that that's it so um so that's a little strange for me there's no probably changing it but I just want to put that out there the other thing um my other question is for did I and it's probably in here sorry I think probably Devour the 39 pages so it's okay um for Council I it's good I think that you do it we do it after the November um is that is is the wrong data public information at that point um yes technically all Council survey data is public information if anyone were to ask for it um it would I can tell you that the school told me that they had that happen at one point and there is a a small exception to that which is that if that data were ever asked for by a member of the public um we would need to pay a Personnel HR person to go through that and make sure that any reference that happened to be put in the council survey that had to do with a staff member was deleted out before that information could ever be shared out publicly because staff information is private so if somebody just it's a council survey but if somebody didn't follow the rules and wrote something about a staff member in there that by law can be taken out before that data is shared out publicly does that make sense Leo yeah and I'm I'm completely open to anybody that shows up and we we know we're up here and can be can be talked about here but there again that that's a little bit of a anybody can you know an anonymous person can put something in about account council member and there it sits and then then someone comes and requests it and there it is so that's that's a little I don't know not unsettling but it seems like it could be misused to me I hope it's not I asked uh we did ask the schools if they've had trouble with that and they haven't particularly had that they certainly would say that as everyone knows when you do 360 performance surveys and they are Anonymous by Nature um you you you assume that people tend to respond to those more on the extremes when they're very happy about something and when they're very unhappy about something it's kind of human nature so it's important that when that data is read it's taken with a grain of salt if one person says something that is probably not um something that you take super seriously but if 10 to 15 people say it then you say okay this might be a real concern lots of people are expressing it there's a different gradation of how input is received and it is certainly the job of council and other people on committee should speak also I mean I guess Rob's not here but um it is certainly the job of council with the town manager survey to do that to look at that data with a clear eye that you know things don't have the same import if they come from one person as if they come from many and that data is 100% private that data goes nowhere outside of an executive session Our Town manager is a staff person just like everybody else and has the same Personnel protections and that's extremely important to protect okay can I go quickly through the rest this I think is not maybe as complicated we'll see the second vote um on your page that's up there is saying that um when our town manager's contract was written we did not yet have this information and recommendations that the 360 performance survey part should be at a different time of year from the spring when we're doing our budget and salary setting decisions so the language written in here didn't reflect that it seemed to indicate that we would be doing them all at the end of the fiscal year so in that process um we worked as a committee with our town manager there's you'll see on Section D it says that this section of uh the town manager's contract can be updated in writing and by agreement of both parties to reflect changes in the town's ordinances or the policies of the town or the Town Council So based on that language um we have the ability as a council with the town manager's agreement to take a vote to amend the contract language and that is a separate attachment I don't know if you can switch Cody it's a third attachment I believe on the agenda which has the suggested new language um which accounts for the separation of the performance survey the 360 survey in the fall from the formal evaluation in the spring um this language is on the agenda it has gone out to council 10 days ago it has been reviewed by our town manager and you've received a memo from him saying that he's comfortable with this language change so we would one of the votes you'll see tonight is to vote to amend the contract accordingly any questions on that okay um thanks Cody for switching back and forth um then if we go back to the other document the third and fourth votes this is the thing that Jacob highlighted at the beginning they look almost identical but they are slightly different votes in one you're being asked to approve the Draft Town manager performance survey and in the other you're being asked to approve the Draft Town Council performance survey these surveys um we spent quite a bit of time Jacob you could attest quite a lot of time looking at these surveys and really closely at what the questions should be based on the recommendations from MMA from Dr berel from the experiences shared from the RSU and um we really followed what's listed here that we took the Town Council goals that had been set we took the town manager's work plan we took the results from the town manager survey data a year ago where the community told us which specific criteria they were really looking for in a town manager and so what we're asking the community for feedback on is whether whether we are um for our town manager how the community and Staff feel like he's living into these um leadership qualities that the community was asking for when he was hired and also commitments made in his own work plan and again he has been part of developing that survey and looking at those questions and indicated that he feels they are the right ones for us to be evaluating and um on the Town Council they are based off of our goals we set for this fiscal year and our two resolutions so in an addendum you guys have the detailed surveys each of them and we can scroll down to that but more here I just wanted you to know this was the process and what we base those questions off of we did not make them up we did not make up any of them we took them off commitments that the council had made in our work plan and our commitments to the community and we took them off of um what the community had asked for and what's in the town manager's work plan and the MMA I should say the community had been asked to respond to MMA leadership qualities and they picked the top six so they came from MMA the international city and county Managers Association and then the community picked which six were most important to this community all right questions on that and how those were developed I had I I thought they were excellent um and detailed and I wanted to ask if you thought um when we vote tonight um is there still room after we vote to potentially talk about the order of the questioning and things like that like I thought maybe the council goals that we have for the 24 25 Municipal year should be closer to the top sure okay I I think that um there will be there will be multiple points where we could have feedback but now would be a good time so if there there is feedback like that like I would like to see the goals you know for 2025 at the top and um and the commitments to the your voice matters and the Oro stops further down I think that's fine we can take any feedback now I think there will be time in the future these are a draft and depending on how Council votes it's possible we'll be having our our human resources consultant take a look at them and perhaps another consultant so there is room to move them right up until they go out also things in a community change so if there were some huge event that happened and the town manager had to take a big pivot and direct a lot of their his attention somewhere else we would want to account for that um I know that happened during covid and you know the schools rewrote what was on the survey because they were all of a sudden dealing with Co which they hadn't predicted to be dealing with so there is time right up until the survey goes out um but I do think now is a fine time if there's something someone wants added to rearrange to let me know let us know do you have concerns that if we make a if we do make a well I suggest that the moveing the the municipal goals and my computer is 91% away from being updated so it's going to be a while before I see my notes that I took on the on the surveys um do you think procedurally do you think we need to come back if we're acting by order tonight yeah we can have this if we want to amend the order we can do that when we get to the vote I think if you want to say I would like to pass this with this amendment that it's reordered that would I think be an amendment to make yeah I just I I don't want to I don't want to Wordsmith survey by order that we vote you know that's that we have to vote on um so I guess I would ask us how do we consider do we trust I I assume um your the NP will continue to administer oversee this work and just kind of approve the drafts tonight with the understanding that n make those kinds of accommodations within without making material changes to the survey but just sort of stylistic type things can do that Dan and I also think it's possible as I said that there might be another change or some that needs to happen based on a consultant's information or change in town issues that are being dealt with and I think it's very possible we just bring it back to a second vote for a final survey vote that's going out in August or something like that does that work can I goe I I realize this is on the action items but and and this is getting used to this whole new format but it this really feels to me like this is a presentation on 39 Pages I'm not sure why we what is the what is forcing this to be a vote this evening you know there are I mean that's the purpose of this process to talk about things like Dan just brought up and and why why why are we so anxious to make this vote this evening instead of let's let's take this feedback right let's go back yeah it's fine what I wanted to say is it's only there in case we are ready to vote if we're not we just table those votes till next month and we just put them there because part of the recommendations on efficiency was to always have the ability to vote if we're ready to vote if we're not ready and folks want to table these till next month that is 100% fine 100% Jacob go ahead so uh Dan that's your point is something I brought up at knap and so is my understanding that if we decide to move forward uh voting that we would be voting on the overall concept but uh then uh Council would be able to provide suggestions so that the final drafts would come to the actual questions as is would come back to the council so that was my interpretation um I also agree with Leo um that it we shouldn't that it seems to be voting this it seems to be quick to be voting on this report but we'll get to that when we actually come time to vote okay we're almost there they're almost there okay if we scroll um the next vote that we'll be having whenever we have it is um whether to hire any Consultants to be involved in this survey process um so there are three possibilities all of which are presented here this seemed clear to the committee that this is not the kind of decision the committee wants to be making or should be making this is a full Council decision how we proceed um but we have sort of compiled for you what we see as the three options option number one is that we take the draft survey we've created we say we get it to the point where the council feels good about it and we put it out ourselves the town has Survey Monkey as an account which does a lot of data analysis on its own it spits out graphs we get bar graphs we get um want word clouds for free form answers we can get those pretty much the same kind of Doc uh data presentation that you can see in Dr berle's report back from a year ago on the town manager search survey all of those graphs are automatically created by Survey Monkey I think that Dr berol made some of them in conversations with her perhaps slightly easier to read and follow she did all of the narrative reports around it but the graphs themselves the data itself is there in Survey Monkey we could choose to do on our own that's option one and you can see that we laid out what we see as advantages or disadvantages of that um uh wait a second yeah up there okay so advantages are essentially this is free um disadvantages are some counselor needs to take the time to be the point person who paces and tells Survey Monkey to send the data in a form it definitely needs to be a counselor um it is confidential information again regarding our town manager it should not be a staff person in that role it needs to be a counselor who does that um so a counselor could volunteer to do that um and that is a choice and the advantage is it's free the disadvantage is you know counselors have to take the time to do it and we are certainly not experts in that neap is not recommending this option primarily because we felt that having as you go to option two having our human resources consultant take a look at the survey seemed important enough to us to be worth the cost um it's a $200 an hour charge the estimate was that it would probably not take more than an hour or two so to look over the surveys for us and flag anything that seemed problematic in either the surveys themselves or the scheduled process um so that is a $400 maximum cost and our town manager has indicated that it's highly likely that there would be enough hours left on the existing contract with our current Human Resources consultant that it might not even require any additional money but might be able to come out of the existing contract so we felt for that low cost it is worth our time to have our human resources person look at it and be sure it's Human Resources wise exactly where we want it to be um the third option would be to both hire the human resources person to do that short consult and in addition hire a data analyst to be the point person for the survey answer questions if anyone in the community had problems accessing it having it work um and also present the final data doing that pasting out of Survey Monkey and adding in you know the sort of written report around that that we had received um in the last one from Dr Berle there are two different quotes for that and we will talk in a minute about the different prices because we got data from two Consultants we approached three consultants and one declined to respond um so we can talk about that in the next part but the three options before Council are do we want to run this 100% ourselves without even using our human resources consultant to give it a careful look at or would we like to do the um human resource consultant looking at it to give us that is option two her opinion and consult and number three is both a human resources consult and a data analysis consult which could range anywhere from 600 to 2,500 depending on which consultant option you went with is that clear sorry I don't know you say you're this committee is recommending one of these or no I think I thought I just heard you say you're not recommending one is that cor right we felt as a committee as a group we were in consensus that we did not recommend option one because the cost of the human resources consultant is very low and the benefit to us seemed high of being sure that a human resources person had looked at it to be sure all Personnel policy rules and laws and confidentiality and all of that are being followed the way that you know she would want it to be I personally this is the first time we'll be doing this and so we're going to have to adjust as we move forward I think option two sounds like a really great option to me one because it doesn't use a lot of resources to it it gives us some Consulting and allows us to um somebody outside to say yeah this is a problem you guys got to throw it out or whatever so we're not just running off a muck on our own to start with and then we can reassess the next you know survey that comes up the next year and see if we need additional U resources or whether that was just right or maybe even less resources that's my feeling I'm between one and two I I probably lean more towards one just I think the given what the school has done and they've done it I on their own for five years I did reach out to the superintendent just I mean I mean to the chair um to ask what sort of response rates they've seen and I they were between 65 and 75 and I think this I I think we're going to have we may have better results I don't know I think uh I don't think they had really much of any Community involvement it's more parents and staff I we may have a better access to community so we might we might get a better involvement maybe two or three maybe two or 300 if we're lucky but um I I think [Music] um I don't feel like we're going to be putting ourselves in a precarious position as far I mean it's I think we're not going to be going that deep and they're just questions being asked uh it's private information that comes back I don't feel like we're going to be there's like exposure here if there were then you know maybe what do we what we probably shouldn't be doing it but um the fact that they've done it I I probably I lean towards more towards the first option could probably live with a second option just for a set of eyes but that's where I stand thanks anybody else have questions on this one or comments um so I as long as everybody's jumping in um I am leaning towards two um I think that like Matt said it's it's a relatively nominal cost for some safety however I will point out um in that voting for number two um and not doing a not hiring an outside consultant um I'm doing that from a fiscal position but I o realized that um by voting to not retain a consultant to review the data to to analyze the data that I am you know signing up for myself or one of us to analyze the data I'm comfortable doing that to save us the money but I I think that needs to be something we all understand again I'm comfortable doing that to save us the money but that needs to be something understood thanks Jacob I think that's important and I think if we do that option we need to be clear that I mean we are not doing a deep data analysis we're looking at the graphs that Survey Monkey spits out and tells us how many people gave this answer they lyer scale questions one to seven if anyone's listening and hasn't seen them there're are numbered questions so it's fairly simple data to see like did more people answer you know three or seven like on the number scale on those questions and then the free form questions I believe we would just read those as a council all the way through and read everybody's responses and you know consider them in our own minds there wouldn't be there's no way to quantify those anyhow um so we'll be looking to make amendments the order 2542 when we get to that point in terms of what the preferences are right when we get there someone will need to make an amendment saying I'm recommending that we hire this consultant or we don't okay that's great so finally we're up to the vote the six vote whenever we have that vote if we chose to hire a data analyst as well as a human resources consultant um and I want to reiterate that this P this both of these companies or individuals were well recommended to us excellent expertise um they would in addition to analyzing the data be the point person so when people in the community had questions about a survey or filled out one on paper at the library these people would type the data in instead of whoever on Council had volunteered to do it the fees are different depending on which consultant you went with one is significantly cheaper than the other um also the um there was a slight difference in fee if we wanted them to come present I don't have a lot of opinions about a lot but I don't personally feel the need to have a big presentation on this from them I feel like it's going to be simple enough that I wouldn't need that but I'll be quiet here if anyone has questions about these Financial figures from the two Consultants or the different options that exist um for each consultant please ask me okay is there anything else um in terms of question okay any questions there then Council marks has one more item on for this presentation I don't want to skip this part at the very very end um it's important how this is going to be paid for if we went with any of these options that have cost and I just wanted to be clear that there is money in the budget for this already according to our town manager again the human resources consultant there might be hours available still on that line and if not these are the three lines Our Town manager highlighted which have existing funds that could be used to pay for this process and rolled into next year's budget if we chose to do these more options at have cost does that make sense it does um and appreciate the work that's gone into it by the committee and the count the time the council is uh devoted to this discussion this is we we're developing a new process e processes processes um so that it takes time and um to learn about it improve upon it and implement it so thank you for all the energy that's gone into it so far it's a very good very good presentation just wanted to bring up one other thing if we do decide when we get to the votes um we can to table everything that is 100% fine I did also want to highlight and as I looked at it I do think there's also an option to consider deciding now that at the minimum we want the human resources consultant if we're there as a council and if that's the case we could even get that human resources consultant look see done before potentially it came back to us next month does that make sense to everyone or not okay the vote number five if we chose to hire the human resources consultant Lori Bucher who's already working with our town on other issues if we chose to hire her um right there uh to to take a quick look through the draft surveys and the schedule process we've developed and flag for us if she sees any problem areas it occurred to me earlier today that we could if if council's at a point where we're ready to know we want to do at least that much we could make that vote tonight and I think it might be possible that she might even do that work and look at it before Council met in March to revote on this and we would have that information so I'm just putting that out we don't need to do it I just wanted to flag that it's a possibility and just to go back up to on the screen Leo but I want to scroll oh sorry um just to go back up to the timeline this we're talking about and this going out in October is that right the uh first survey would go out September 1st September uhhuh okay okay and it's summertime is quiet time also you know for staff in October I mean August a lot so I would want us to be done with having this process designed in July I I appreciate that point about doing it I I don't again I guess um I I would think that if we do end up waiting that that could wait as well personally but I I appreciate the the idea of jumping ahead uh getting on on top of that okay uh that concludes the presentation um well I'm maybe it does well in the action items that are come before we conclude the presentation on the action items that are come before us are orders 25 through 37 through orders 2542 all relate back to this presentation there are a couple of them that I think are are just we'll in we will proceed to this in the order that they're on the agenda they're couple of these things that are seem to be more timely in terms of us um uh addressing them and other things that could be tabled so I guess I would I would suggest as we as we take those on when we get to them in the agenda and we open it up for discussion on the specific orders and invite public conversation or comment on the orders um we keep that in mind so I guess I'll end that observation to you add that observation to end this the presentation discussion item um item number six is acknowledgement by council members and we'll start with the um Council Hardison end of the table and move our way to the right and I will go last this time again as I always do I have a few things um I just wanted I'm probably Matt gonna take this from you but remind everybody that we have potluck on Sunday and I've been the last two months and it it really is a good time to get together and meet people that you don't know um share ideas and just get together um I also want to thank Bill's team for all of the hard work there's been a lot of storms we've got more storms coming um and I just want to kind of make a plea to Residents if you have a sidewalk and you have time and ability clear it out for them if you have a fire hydrant near your house clear that out too just helps the fire department and public works with getting to your area and um certain needs that people in walking by or living near you need cast marks um I just wanted to I guess proactively thank all the staff that have been getting this next vote set up for tomorrow um and it's a ton of work every time they do that this is an extra one this year and very very grateful for that Council Kenny yes want to acknowledge the Orno red riots varsity basketball team for their runnerup um northern main runnerup for 40 to 41 very tight game last Friday against a good caribo team uh so I want to acknowledge um that accomplishment Council of powers yeah um I'd like to acknowledge the the great work by the Nordic ski team at the states this last um week and especially to Clara White who won every single event that she was in for the women and um handily so thank you um and she's an even better person than she is a skier so thank you Council Baker so councelor Demar you obviously missed my wink wink nod nod to start from this end of the table um so that Leo didn't get to jump on me but yes uh the uh the basketball team um had another amazing year kudos to them and uh tough way for the seniors to go out but uh still had an amazing season um but then also to uh Bill and Public Works uh our Public Works were not allowed to State staff but um thank you guys for all you've done um it was a tough couple weeks with a a couple inches of snow almost every single day so the guys probably didn't get a lot of sleep well I'm sure they got the state mandated um rest time that was Reed outside of what's OA requires of course Safety First yep uh thank you and I um in keeping with the snow and tending to the snow I I'll oral Land Trust I mean someone Grooms the trails and I don't think it's the public works department but um and I'm sure it's not a model we want to move towards our main streets and sidewalks but someone's out there grooming those trails at least around my house and it's just phenomenal um it's actually um to be able to get into the woods after right after it snowed and um so thank you to the great work that uh so many people do to maintain our outdoor access to even in the winter time okay that concludes acknowledgements and we'll move next to the consent agenda um this is an opportunity for us to act on items um in Block uh without discussion and any member the public or any member of the council can request that any of the items that follow be removed from the consent agenda and be acted upon as action items are there any requests to pull anything off the consent agenda okay with that I'll take a motion so moved second okay moved in second all those in favor good uh those were approved unanimously thank you move on to the action items excuse me we will um some of this will sound familiar based on the presentation we had under item five but uh we'll start with a a request a motion to put order 2537 on the table accepting the nominations evaluations and Council policy committees propose schedule and process for Town manager and Town Council 360 degree performance surveys and town manager evaluation I don't know procedurally but I was going to motion for all of these to be tabled until the next meeting uh gotta do one at the time at this point I think procedurally okay then the first one I move to table it okay we got to get it on we got to get it on the first of a second okay okay is there a second second okay seconded and I I would just caution that tabling motion is not debatable right is that right okay could we talk for a minute before we table we need a second on the table also did we get that we haven't we have not entertained a tabling motion as of yet wa right now it's on the table for discussion um so I I guess one of the things I think that gets cut out when we do it in this fashion is that there there's no opportunity for public feedback so I think I I'm I'm I know we're not talking about the tabling motion but that's another reason I think it would be a good idea after that wonderful presentation um to allow Community to give us feedback so I'm I'm going to be in favor of tabling all of these so okay and to that end though we do um whenever we have offer one of these um we get to an action item it's supposed to get on the table then staff or Council are supposed to do a presentation then we open it up for public comment and then we turn it back to council discussion so I guess I'm going to ask if there's any public comment at this point Cody's not seeing anything all none of those hands are going up online Okay um okay any additional Council discussion okay I guess I would entertain a motion to we'd have move ahead with a vote or now would be the time if you want to move the table so yes I will motion to table until the next meeting providing opportunity to for public um other counselors to digest uh this report okay there a second second okay um all those in favor of tabling this to the next meeting yep okay all those opposed so it's was it 4 to two 4 to two so we'll table this to the next meeting um order I'll take a motion to put order 2538 on the on the T on before us so move second and second okay we any presentation from the committee or staff any comments from the public any comments from Council I'm gonna say I'm going to vote against the ones that I think we could we could act on tonight I feel pretty comfortable we could act on tonight but I completely understand people wanting to table these and I will vote to table some of them as well so all right is there a motion uh motion to table this I think that process-wise we either do all or none okay second we're kind of giving Council Baker a little leeway on the uh discussion table tabling motion not being open to discussion oh am I not allowed to say my res I don't you know I mean I mean I won't if I yeah I want to make sure I'm following process here just go table it I don't know if the uh okay yeah the Robert rule police are not here and we don't you know um so but good all right this has been a motion to table all those in favor of tbling order 2538 okay all those opposed okay that was 4 to2 passes uh I take a motion to put order 2539 on the table before the council so moved second y there any presentation from the committee or staff y any comments from the public okay um can I get a motion move to table okay I'll second this one and all those in favor of tabling order 2539 Dan can I just clarify we're tabling all these till our next meeting correct we're tabling them definitely not indefinitely with the definitely they've been tabled indefinitely at this point the next meeting did we get a next meting yeah my intention is everything until the next meeting okay yeah so I I I'm comfortable if there's a date okay are we in agreement just shake not of heads that we're we're in agreement we're on record that the prior ones are until the next meeting and we'll articulate that very clearly I know right just um all right so order 2539 there's a motion before us to table this we just did we vote y yes did let's vote all those in favor of tabling just to reiterate all those in favor of tabling order 25 39 to the our next council meeting that's unanimous okay six to nothing order 2540 could we uh get a motion move so moved moved and seconded that's an order except B Town manager 360 degree performance survey proposed by the nominations evaluation Council policies committee any presentation from staff or the committee any comments from the public move to table and the next meeting seconded y all those in favor of tbling order 2540 until the next council meeting good that's unanimous order 2541 did someone put it on the table so moved second moved and seconded that's in order 2541 order confirming the town manager's recommendation for Lori buard LLC to review the proposed Town manager Town Council 360 performance allation evaluation process um any discussion from the committee or staff yep CC marks I'm just going to read it again that I think I'm in favor of passing taking a vote on this one whether we're ready to do it right now or not um but that's just me but I feel like if we did it and there were any changes then those could be brought back to the next meeting and when we vote on our draft surveys and process we might be sure that they're exactly how we want them thanks okay any comments from the public can I I just so when they if it without doing that if it comes back we're voting on draft surveys then then we vote also to H if we're hiring the consultant the drafts can obviously be updated at that point as well correct yes they they definitely can oh yes Leo they definitely can be it's not that they can't be I just thought it might be a simpler process if we got that feedback early and by the time we took our first vote it already been looked at but it's not required we can adjust them later they're drafts okay I'm gonna um I think I'm I'm going to vote in favor of the recommendation because I do think it would be import good feedback and it could be useful if it comes particularly if it can be done in the next couple weeks it' be useful for our discussion um when we return to these items that we've been tabling today and what was the dollar amount a couple hours you thought the fee is $200 in hour and the estimate from our town manager was he thought it would be an hour or two of time okay y with budgeted resources let me just make sure I've got this all clear so if we vote for this then this draft that we have will send to her and then she'll give us recommendations about whether to change it or not next time oh okay I'm in favor of that I I guess my hesitation to that and and I mean I am I'm in favor of doing this 360 for at least this first year it's part of Clint's contract it'll be a good triy run but I guess my concern with doing it the way that's suggested is that we essentially or not essentially we are voting to spend money on something that hasn't been approved yet well I guess we're voting to spend money to have the draft looked at we're not voting to do the process right we're voting to spend money to get the drafts looked at but if this ultimately gets voted down which I honestly don't think it will but if it does then we've spent that money with okay any other comment don't we have um was it in the presentation there a comment about there already being billable or hours to use on the current um our town manager indicated he thought it likely that there's still were hours that could cover this but I can't say that for sure so it could be potentially up to the 400 okay um we've got a motion on the table um order 2541 confirming the town manager recommendation for Lori Bard to review the proposed Town manager Town Council 360 performance surveys and evaluation process all those in favor okay all those opposed it passes 4 to2 with councelor Baker and councelor Kenny being opposed okay next up we have order 2542 could I have a motion so moved second okay moved and seconded Order authorizing the Town Council chair to execute an agreement with the consultant the consultant to conduct data analysis and collection of surveys for the town manager and Town Council 360 degree performance surveys could we get um any presentation from staff or the committee no nothing any comments from the public y I would say this might be one of the ones um definitely that it makes sense to well you can table everything to the next meeting and then we may be able to table it again or not we can not bring it off the table and I mean it'll be on the agenda but someone will still have to move to bring it off the table yeah and it would also have to be amended to say which consultant if that decision was made that there was a consultant we wanted so could it also be tabled indefinitely and then it it absolutely could or it could just be voted down to not do it yeah we'll have a date certain if we do so that's another option this could be voted down up this could be voted up or down right now if just as far as tabling is concerned once it's tabled it can always been be brought off the table there's really no indefinite tabling like you you can't put it in that special box at any point somebody could bring it back regardless of what you've so next meeting you can bring all these back and somebody can suggest to put them back on the table so the only thing is on our not yeah sorry the only thing is that if you I think I'm on am I on I am on I think sorry um sorry thanks Dan but I'm um I I just I I would note that on our agendas under items we have something that has been there which I believe we were told from staff but it says indefinitely tabled items have a 90day limit so they don't disappear after 90 days so yes what I'm suggesting though is once you've tabled an item you can bring them back after that 90 days you would just bring an order back that was similar order bring a new order what I'm suggesting is it's not by you tabling it doesn't mean it disappears that's all I I really believe we should vote no if we don't want to hire a consultant we should say no so that was my point thanks Mitch for clarifying all right I guess I would entertain if there no other discussion i' entertain a tabling motion from the side of the table that's been doing that come on nail it motion to table until the next meeting good second moved in seconded in order to not open to discussion in order to table 2542 until the next council meeting all those in favor okay that's unanimous 6 to zero that completes that and I do um we just did a lot of work and I apologize to anyone watching at home or in the audience who thought it was a little unwieldy but I I think it's good work and um It's a combination of our committee process and and our interest in doing things in a more expedited fashion when we can but also stepping back and recognizing we you need more time sometimes okay could we uh have someone put order 2543 on the table as an order assigning the Community Development Committee to discuss oral Festival days and setting the date of March 18 2025 at 6m for an oral Festival days Workshop so moved second moved and seconded any members of the committee want to talk about that Matt or Andrea or me or I guess um yeah the there's been um a pretty broad um spectrum of people who are interested in restarting the Oro Festival days for a fall festival that would be both familyfriendly and hopefully would attract um maybe college students to downtown or some combination of it but we'd like to hear more um input from from members of the of the community as we make recommendations right going forward and so there will be a meeting on the 18th March 18th so everybody can come and give us some input as to what they would like to see on the um Oro Festival days could you please add some more Dan is there anything I'd be happy to Matt please thank you for asking so this is one of our Council goals to um Council goal number bullet three I suppose is um enhance and expand community events and engagement um if you go back to the long version that goal it articulates our desire to reestablish the orinal festival days uh and have a presentation in time for the budget so uh this year's budget so there'll be resources to help support that um we will have um we invite the community council members staff have been um a member of the staff will be with us to help us um Megan Masala with Parks and Recreation is going to be there to help us um have the conversation we scheduled this around both the planning board meeting we would be mindful that is um um it's going to be in the uh it would be if this goes forward it'll be in the Observer an invitation for the community we um to come participate in the conversation and I think it really shows people is a good example of us acting on one of our goals so that's all I have any other discussion or questions any comments from the public Darren if you could please introduce yourself hi uh I'm Darren Marton I'm just having a question is is this supposed to be on March 18th is that what you guys said earlier I believe so yes you have a question about March 18th it is just the start of uh the University spring break so if you would like uh you might not get the student input that you want if it's it's the start of spring break not like yeah yes it starts isn't that a Tuesday I'm looking at the uh the University main website right now spring break is from March 17th to the 21st we'll have to accommodate I think the students should be accommodated yeah listen I don't like adding more levels of extensions than is necessary but if one of the whole points is to get student engagement involvement I I'm sorry I think it does yeah no um I can't I can't get online so I can't access the calendar um and I'm not sure I I personally agree with um councelor Baker on this one and if we can make it work I would I I guess can we just amend the order to say we approve the referral and you all no we have to call a we have to call a meeting oh procedurally okay um can we pick the next week I think we probably we have to work with staff to make sure staff's available for the next week and has the Observer gone to print Cody is tomorrow morning soon enough if we pull the date if we you think so or you know you certain you can okay I think we can but it's going to be we are checking schedules for alternative date adversely I know that Committee Member or Community committee meetings don't typically have a back and forth Zoom option but is there a way to provide one for this meeting to allow any students are who are out of town to participate I think this is there's going to be I think this Workshop is the first in a series of conversations we're going to have and I think when we talk with students I think there'll be I I imagine speaking from my perspective they'd be a concerted effort to reach out to student leaders and um probably take the show to them and you know we met with uh some of us met with or Matt and I met with um and Clint met with the student affairs team earlier in the year we've gone to the Wilson Center I think we'd probably end up repeating a similar a a similar engagement so for me I think and with all you know uh understanding this the spring break Challenge and I appreciate Darren bringing it up with us I think it makes sense that just go with the one we have scheduled and then make a real effort to um make sure student we my thought was kind of get a people who've been involved in the festival in the past staff start the conversation and then find ways to hear from and engage with students and in other discussions as well this is not this is not we're not deciding everything with this meeting we're Kicking It Off off but so I'm going to I'm going to vote that we stick with the date that we have um it's set to go out in the Observer and if we need to change if we and we can certainly do more engagement in addition to this one Workshop did we know if the following Tuesday a week from then is a possibility which is March 25th so the council chambers is available I'm not sure about staff availability I don't have all that sitting on my phone um one of the other things that maybe is a possibility is um as we think about what the workshop's going to look like what types of questions you're going to ask people maybe we can get that early and send it out in the form of a survey to the student affairs folks or um some of the students just to get some feedback as part of that conversation I agree okay is there any more discussion okay so all those in favor of order 2543 assigning the Community Development Committee to discuss oral Festival days and setting the date of March 18 2025 6m for a Oro Festival days Workshop all those in favor three four four to all those opposed four to two passes with uh Council of powers and Council of marks in opposition you're still going to come though right Matt thank you I come I'll see what I can do to um I'm going to reach out to um we we'll try and reach out to a number of student organizations You go Okay order 2544 is an order accepting the recommendations from the Community Development Committee on the neighborhood noise ordinance review can I have a motion on that motion and second okay in terms of presentation Matt do you want me to okay uh so at our last meeting we had a presentation of our findings and including um including this report which I cannot access because I can't get online you have it with you thank you uh no I got it thanks so this was um we developed this this motion is acknowledging the work that the Community Development Committee did um we do have some recommendation that follow but it is not in my view an order accepting this report is not endorsing all the recommendations those will have to come forward as separate items as part of our work as a council so this just this acknowledges the work and takes it off our immediate agenda in terms of a report back um it's a chance for learning for people happy to answer questions from anybody um about what we've presented so far and then we'll work with the council leadership team um put items on the agenda uh that may based on the recommendations coming out of the report yeah and I'd just like to say a couple of things so this was um spearheaded by Dan through communication with people and he did the um the report work he did all of the um like looking back at the different police reports and also the neighborhood reports and he was able to put this into this report which I um is a very good document if if you're interested in a little bit of the history of all these things going on and um it was his project that he spearheaded and with with you know in consultation with a wide variety of Staff members and other people on the council and I just want to thank him for all that because that was a lot of work yeah thank Matt yeah Cel marks yeah I really appre I know I live in the Webster neighborhood a lot of folks have these kinds of concerns I appreciated quite a few things about and I think your committee did great work I wondered if it was possible for you to articulate a little bit more for us and for the community about what's in our noise and disorderly property ordinances now I know there's links here but could someone give a succinct summary because I think part of the confusion for people has been not being clear that there are consequences ever for these things happening um so I guess I would appreciate some feedback from this committee who did all this work about you know the gist of how these ordinances work and what happens on your first noise complaint what happens on your second what happens on your third at the same property how how does that actually work I'm not prepared to walk you through those ordinances uh one by one at this point we did have a briefing from the um it's online we had a a briefing with the police chief about um about what the ordinance are how they work what their experiences with are with them but I'm not prepared to you know I'd be clicking these links and following along with you as well so is it possible for the link to whatever meeting you all had a presentation about those to be linked to this agenda so that if those meetings are recorded correct your meetings so if folks in the community did want a primer on what those ordinance say could that link be put in our agenda yeah you know I think I think those me those meetings are on the council YouTube page uh the town of oral YouTube page and people are free to use these dates as references and go find them yeah we could um is that I mean are you asking for a minute the minutes yeah I was wondering because I don't know which of these minutes you guys discussed this on and if if you guys know that which meeting help if the minutes could reflect if the if the minutes could reflect that the December 5th 2024 meeting of the Community Development Committee included uh Chief Merill and Mitch Stone where we discuss the data that would be the that' be my starting point for anybody who has further questions about the process and the experence es behind the data that's included in this report that would be so great because I think it goes toward some of your recommendations about just that perhaps the community isn't fully aware of what is happening so just putting that in I think would be one step toward one of those recommendations um and I wanted to highlight that I really I know we're not talking about accepting them now just the report not moving on them but I did really appreciate that there are some recommendations at the end of this report of some expedited review things we could look at and um I I would hope that we as a council are going to set some kind of date for ourselves to cycle back to some of these recommendations because I do think people in the communities would would like us to would like us to take a look at some of these recommendations and take some some of these steps potentially so I guess that's my other question do we have a sense of what is a timeline by which and who would bring that back at this point would the same committee bring back to us okay here's what an expedited review process would look like or um I don't know there are some recommendations here at the end I'd like to understand better if we're not voting now to accept them as things we should do when we should expect to see something more come back to us okay I'm going to hold on that for a second to see if there's any public comment on this before we can I I still have yeah sure no we're gonna definitely come back to council discussion but I I'm trying to get in the Cadence of you know somebody knowledgeable presents the item we open it up the public discussion and then the council decides and we and I we kind of my apologies no I thing apologies we very conversational in our approach just um and I like that about us that is a reversal to how we've done it in the past yeah in the past Council discussed it and then then we've opened it up we didn't change that as part of any of the kneecap recommendations or anything else it was already that way in our agendas Leo we might not have been doing it but it was already that way in our process we didn't we didn't make any change to that this fall yeah like I would yeah and just I think we're just emphasizing it more um to make sure you know in our public comment section we make it clear that people can speak about any item all the charter I think it's in Charter makes it clear that someone could speak on any agenda item that's up for the up before the council so I think we're just if anything maybe we're just emphasizing it more but the order should go you know staff or committee presents the topic we ask the public if they have any thoughts on it and then because I don't want to Prejudice public comment by us spending 10 or 15 minutes on something and then oh by the way do you want to now that we've deci essentially decided what we're going to do you want yeah for some reason I just L remember it being the opposite way and and less about prejudicing the public more so allowing the public to hear what we're thinking and then then weighing in their opinion and I guess I don't know 61 have I don't know which is better but I guess yeah I definitely take that point but hearing that we didn't have any public comment um do we have anything any more Council S I do yeah um I I read read the report and and watch the meeting and um appreciate all the work that that went into it um but I I gotta say I kept I kept hearing um this this approach of we've got to be educ educating neighborhoods on we got to be educating on neighborhood expectations we have to inform tenants of clear behavioral expectations things like that being said to me when you say that out loud it feels to me like we are calling out a specific class of C citizens be it renters be it students I don't I don't know but I know when I if if you've boughten a house nobody's showed up to give you what the expectations are for how you should behave in your home and I feel like we're we're on a slippery slope by by speak even just by speaking this way saying okay we need to now that said i' I've rent departments and I I talk to the ten my tenants that I'm going to rent to and say rule number one be a good neighbor so I do do that but I feel like as a like for the town to say we have to educate people about what neighborhood expectations are feels like we're overstepping what we should be doing to me that make sense is that I mean do you can you see where that's separate I mean we're not doing that to homeowners we're doing that to renters and that that's creating this class of people that now we are suggesting we're going to tell how to how to behave and that yeah we also have I mean we but we also Zone our community that in a way kind of segregates I mean if we if we could if we changed Oro tomorrow if we could snap our fingers tomorrow and Mitch this is a tough order for your office right but I mean if we' snap our fingers in tomorrow everybody was in compliance with the zones that they lived in you know we've got several we kind of segregate our community based on our zoning where we have um the medium density residential I mean it's supposed to be your Primary Residential homeowners in those in those parts of town and we have um properties that are non-conforming so I think that that's kind of a it's acknowledgement that we have you know over time we've developed this um parts of town that are more designed towards residential neighborhoods and and residential living and and part that aren't and there's a there's an inherent um back and forth with with with those uses and it creates some conflict that neighbors have expressed concerns about and it's something that's been discussed for years and you know long before my service on the council or my residency in Oro so I take your point I mean um but it's a fact of life in a college town in a town with so much transience yeah absolutely and that's I guess the overarching reality is it is a fact of life in a college town but I I mean it it feels discriminatory to me when you when you start SE segregating out a group of people that you're going to tell how to behave living in in their Apartments to me um again it feels a little discriminatory and I I I question the language of using that um I did have a question because about the non-conforming because there are like specific recommendations about non-conforming that I couldn't understand from the data why those were being singled out um my I don't know if I can hone in on that any further uh what what is the recommendation yeah Council should also explore a new requirement that non-conforming properties make extra efforts to post or share information in their leases and at their properties informing tenants that they are living in residential neighborhoods with clear Behavior expectations the new comprehensive plan would well that's where that ends so yeah and for there's 40 non-conforming properties um non non-conforming because of number of units seven properties non unrelated persons 33 I I don't know I don't know what number of units do you know what that is like what's non-conforming as far as number of units there are seven properties is it five or more Mitch depending upon the Zone that's what it is it's it's properties that were grandfathered in so they existed prior to um the zoning got put in place and whatever that zone depending upon where it is um doesn't allow so those are all of our properties in town those are the number of them that are non-conforming based on the number of units for that zone wherever they exist so it just depends on where it is and I I get the um you know at one point we changed from no more than three unrelated people so that's the 33 unrelated persons one um except unless you're in the downtown district but I I I didn't see anything from the data that called out those properties as being requiring special attention the they've gotten a special right in the recommendation in the end but I don't I don't see anything in the data that says yeah it's those unrelated properties that all you know and again I guess and you did mention it in your presentation but worth mentioning again the numbers have all gone down in the last three years so there's progress being made uh and I think I don't know what you know if the goal is that we there's never any complaints that's probably not realistic but yeah but I think you know conceptually my goal we heard from people that you I think there's some folks who' like to see us whatever we possibly can legally or financially to uh move non-conforming properties outside of our residential districts and I think there that's one extreme which could involve you know will we borrow $10 million to buy all these properties and convert them into something else or you know there's that kind of you know you that kind of interest and then on the other end you there's doing nothing and not being at all responsive and and this seemed like to us we don't or at least at least to me but I think it to the committee we we weren't we we don't have an interest in Oro becoming a heavy-handed we think if we have an opportunity to I want to model what I really want to do Leo I want to model the Andrea Hardison model where she goes and she changes cell phone numbers with the people that live on her street who are new to her commun new to the neighborhood I I want to create Avenues where people get to know each other and um we can share information like quiet hours they start it I don't want to say the wrong number and I can't access the internet on my machine but I think it's 11:00 a.m. 11: p.m. is like you know it's kind of where the noise ordinances kicks up another notch and people I don't think people know that I don't think anybody knows that whether you've got a 15 year mortgage at a fantastic rate like me or whether you're you know whether you're renting an apartment from Leo Kenny um so um well and I don't think I mean there's most of these recommendations I think are are good you know why not I think but but if we're calling out these non-conforming like there's like there's something there and I I don't the data doesn't prove that unless you have other data that that does so I don't I don't like the idea of calling calling out Leo conforming can I just ask a question what data are you looking at are you looking at this box on the first page what data are you looking at that just well uh not the first page but um sorry page two page the at the bottom of page two is what you're looking page three page three no that tells the unit sorry the bottom of page two has no noise complaints going back from 2019 2024 right we do not we do not dive into the you know the property level um area of complaint wasn't right y I get that that's the point I mean good news it's going down we but but in our recommendations we call out non-conformity like like non-conforming is some kind of problem I don't know that it is maybe it is but so Leo could we just if we're going to move forward on further recommendations in the future perhaps we can ask staff to give us the data on how many of those noise complaints are at non-conforming properties I'm sure they know they have the addresses I would say in our neighborhood and Andrew you could speak to this case I think most of them are from the non-conforming properties I've very rarely have heard any neighbor on the list serve talk about one that's anywhere else it's possible but I think if we just ask the staff for the data they presumably have it and we can ask for it at the next level if we're going to move forward with recommendations I would also like to point out that I also think giving people information is not penalizing people what actually happens is if you don't know this information and you violate the code you start getting fees that plop down on you so I I see it more as a service to let people know that if they don't know these rules then they break them they get they have to pay money so for me if I were somebody there I would want to know that what they were honestly I'd like to know for everybody and I'm sure we can put it in the Observer too and some short write up so that it goes to everyone but I think we can just get that data if it's the issue Leo for you moving forward and I have one other thing I'd like to ask for if we move forward on this Dan is this the time I could do this I guess Leo are you done are you okay thank you I do appreciate I mean I think those are good questions and if we do bring something formal back on that and we will we'll have to have more data involved you know attached to it but okay sir yeah I mean my first thing is I would just like some sense of a timeline from Council of when we want to Circle back to this because what I don't want to do to especially neighborhoods that have kind of had this happen before where it comes up for discussion but then nothing actually happens or moves forward I would like us as a council to really say when are we coming back to this um do we have a sense of that and my second thing is um I would personally like just a short summary of what the financial penalties are both for a resident who violates the noise ordinance I can find them in the ordinance I've scrolled but they're short and they would be easy to put in our report saying you know first violation you pay this much second one you pay this much and also for property owners once your property is deemed a disorderly property how much you pay in a quick look on my own these numbers seem low to me compared to every other university town I've lived in and I'm not sure that they are enough of a deterrent to repeating a behavior um and I think once you get to your second and third warning you've been warned if you're continuing to do it I'd be perfectly comfortable to see higher fees at that point um and I just want us to actually look at the actual Financial consequences and hear from either the committee about that or staff and also how long it takes for those to kick in because my understanding in a much quicker read than you all did it looks like a property can't become a disorderly property till quite a few complaints have happened um so that basic reduction data I would like us as a council to consider if I I 100% believe in warnings but once you've been warned I think the consequences need to be enough to deter people from repeating just can I just comment about that Sarah as as an apartment owner you don't control your we have you have limitations to what so if you've got students that are what am I coming through on this thing uh if you have students that are disorderly you can I mean you don't have any special method of making them stop you know I think a lot when this came out a lot of landlords put something in the lease saying we can you know we can we're going to bill you for it a lot of them have that I think I I have that in there but you don't control you can't you don't have that level of control on a on a tenant Leo I'm fine if we have this discussion at a council level and we decide that the numbers that should go up are the con Financial consequences to the person who or who made the noise violation not the landlords I don't care I don't know yet where we should end up but I do think we need to have a discussion about the size of the financial consequences and whether they are actually a deterrent um I don't I don't think we should be having that now because we're not voting to move forward but when we next come back we I want to talk about that I look at the consequences and they're a fraction of what they were in the last college town I lived in and it doesn't just happen to students it happens to my friends I mean my friend got a one for his 50th birthday party he was way too loud in his backyard and he got the warning and then he had another party three months later and he was way too loud and he paid so it's not about what demographic you belong to in town it's just once you've been warned if you keep being that loud I think there need to be consequences that are big enough that people stop because I think it's fair to neighbors once a warning goes out and people continue to just repeat and repeat I think one of the things that we found too and it could be the education language could be expanded to including residents um a lot of people didn't know who do I call I've made this call or it's just a group of people walking by and it's a time maybe it's not a property it's just a time of night or time of day and one of the things I think needs to be made more clear is who can the residents reach out to to follow up on their complaint or maybe they didn't it find the need to call 911 or the non-emergency line but who can they reach out to after the fact to say we need help in our area Okay um just just one more is just to put things under perspective here 2022 there were two disorder it says two disorderly events I don't I don't know if that and I don't I don't know that that's a disorderly property but we obviously I think it's important that we would look at the number of disorderly property summons that have gone out this says 2 and 22 2 and 23 and 1 and 24 um so is there an issue yeah it's I think the issue is the noise complaints not the disorder Le Leo but you you were talking about fines for disorderly properties and that's so there are fines for both Le we have fines in our ordinances for noise violations also all right so to sum this up um we spent a lot of time on our meeting two weeks ago um and to to sum up in terms of next steps I'm going to suggest that um the committee informally Matt put on our agenda at our next meeting a chance to kind of revisit these recommendations and when we want to come back to council with some some thoughts on you know we're asking Council to accept the work that we did and we will come back um I will I suggest the committee will come back I don't think we need an order for this you know we don't have to refer this to the committee but Matt if you will put it on our agenda for the we'll have a conversation come back with some thoughts on next steps um and and some of these are coming up pretty close um the community policing enhancement education around the spring main day of 2025 is just a you know couple months less than a couple months away so if we're going to do something on that it'll be have to be pretty fast but if we bring something back in terms of an ordinance change or um you know some kind of requirement for for land owners and property owners of non-conforming properties we'll have we'll bring back more data with that we'll dive in deeper with the staff than we did you you all know you serve on these committees we're spending an hour together once a month as volunteers so it's um there's limits to and it takes a lot of time outside the committee meeting time to to get these things together so any more questions or discussions I just think to to encourage more participation from residents in these neighborhoods that are having problems find a way for us to encourage um them to attend and and let us know yep no there's a lot of it yeah might you they're concerns when they're concerns and they kind of fade away and it's you know left to these committees to um so we've got a and if people want to see progress on things and you they have to stick with it um or it's pretty easy to fall off the fall off the fall off the top burner as it were okay uh we have a motion to accept this report any without further questions or suggestions we're going to vote on it all those in favor that's unanimous thank you you thank you some meetings I think we're going to fly through it and um get everybody out here early and then Mitch is slowing us down yeah Clint Clint takes a takes a week off and we encourage hey CL take your time off don't tune in and we're gonna be here until 10 or 11 o'clock at night um all right which one are we on now all right we're g order can I get can I get a motion to remove order to take 2534 off the table I'm still not seeing it where is it I make a motion to take order 2534 off the table that's governance for you Jacob okay can we get a second for that moved and seconded yeah first we have to take it off the table and then I want to talk about it's on the table all right so now okay 2534 has been moved off the T oh we have to vote on it all those in favor that's unanimous we order 2534 order assigning the ordinance Review Committee to review the town of ordinance or town of ordinal ordinances Chapter 30 Solid Waste um this was a referral that came to us is um from councelor Kenny that's what put it on the agenda and this would put this to the ordinance Review Committee and we've got a meeting this Thursday where we're going to look at recommendations from staff on a schedule a three-year schedule to look at all of our ordinances so this will be the chance to you know if you like me think we ought to loosen up the the length of the dog leash um or it's eight foot eight feet and so my retractable my retractable leash sometimes out of compliance if I let my dog it's a 24f footer and if I let my dog outside off of the Beyond 8 feet I'm out of compliance get some citizen tickets yeah please afford them yeah um I'm always at8 feet so any discussion councilor Kon you want to watch yeah just so this is don't we have to motion to we've taken it off the table so it feels like it's on the table I think we I think you need to have a motion on 2530 I don't know maybe not but I think so don't you Amanda Okay so all right so we just we've taken it off the table I make a motion to discuss it discuss it is there a second thank you Amanda second it so moved you're um okay all those in well nope Leo you're gonna discuss it then we're gonna ask members of the public if they wanted to have any comment and then Council will discuss it so Leo yes so this stem from we talked two weeks ago or I don't know two meetings ago and then you talked last meeting about we're putting a recycle out at out at the um out of the dump and uh this came up because currently we we've got a limit of four units um if if an apartment building with four units that's the limit for where we pick up trash and that limit was started back when anybody could wheel whatever trash they have out to the curb um when we've changed in 23 or [Music] 24 I I actually thought it was was three units but apparently it was four so now so now we have this volume limit that we're accepting should I be pleading the case or I mean I guess the main thing I was yeah I I'll keep talking um so now we have a volume limit you know it's it's four Apartments so that means you can have four bin and my suggestion or why I would like to have this discussed at the subcommittee level is if you have an apartment building with four units and three bedrooms you've got 12 people living there presumably but you could have a five unit with all one bedrooms and only have five people but you have you can't you wouldn't be able to have trash pickup meanwhile you could you could get away you probably only need two bins so you're now that we've changed how we're doing trash pickup and four bins is the limit I think if you've got six or seven units but they're all one bedrooms and you can get by with four bins four bins is now the is now the limit so why why would we not allow that because that that also again this sort of stemmed or came up in my mind from the conversation about we don't recycle at these at bigger at places where we don't pick up trash we're not doing any recycling um so that was the initial thinking that that that would solve that because a five unit that or six unit seven unit that only needs four bins they'd recycle and they would have trash pickup and so I I'd like to have this referred to subcommittee to to discuss this further okay um Rob is the chair of that committee I'm on the committee we meet on Thursday um this coming Thursday is our next meeting I'm in favor of um you know we get to the I'm in favor of the referral um though I do think you know when we're at the committee level I think we'll have a discussion about where it fits within the recommendations that we've gotten from staff um we've gotten a very um a very good um the town clerk's done a very good kind of recommendation for us to look at in terms of sequencing over the course of three years so I I think that'll be helpful Jacob I guess um my only hesitation with this and if we want to send it committee that's fine and it'll be fine but this seems like something that goes against the kneecap recommendations that if we want to change the ordinance instead of sending it to committee having a discussion bringing that discussion back creating an ordinance why don't if somebody feels strongly about it work with staff create an ordinance and we can vote on it it just seems simpler and more efficient to go that route than referring it to committee okay Council marks I agree with Jacob on this one that I guess I have a couple concerns I think that the committee structure works well when we send things that need a really in-depth dive with lots of community input and Council input I'm not sure this meets that criteria I feel like what I would like to see first would be some basic information from staff about how much extra this would cost us on our um contract with cassella because I assume it would have an added cost and um also I guess my assumption was always that this policy wasn't about so much the number of Apartments as once you hit a certain number I think you're being treated as a business you're a money-making business at that point and I guess I figured if we did this we should start giving recycling to all our businesses in town too which we also don't do so I I guess conceptually for me this is a a cut off which was meant to say once you're renting more units than this you're a business and you need to provide the same kind of services other businesses are providing on their own trash and recycling pickup um and and more importantly I just I think it would be an easy ask for staff to tell us if we change this how much more is that before we spend committee time looking further into it the number may be high and we may as a council say forget it like we're not interested in changing it I'd rather see it come back as a council discussion and not refer to committee at the Point um and yeah I guess that's the main thing that I wanted to say about that so are you suggesting that it become uh requests for additional information as opposed to a referral to a committee if the rest of council I mean I think generally we don't even ask staff for information or refer to committee unless a majority of council or a lot of members in the public have brought this forward and so far I I hear Leo it's important there but I don't know if it's important to the rest of council and I Haven heard from anybody in the community about this being a problem um so for me at this stage all I'd be willing to do is ask staff for a quick vague estimate of how much our cassella would go up before we had further discussion that's where I'm at okay in that um information if we could find out too um how it's enforced I know we have to have our bins in by 11 o'clock the day after um but there's still quite a few bins that are left out um so how that enforcement would work or works now I think that's I agree that's that's a potential that's an issue a current issue I don't know that it is part of this discussion to be honest I mean I think that that's a whole separate sort of thing I think personally it might be but I think if we're looking at three units four units five units and we're wanting tenants to have access to B to put them out what we also need to consider the the bringing it back in where we've had so many complaints on sidewalks being blocked or bike ways again I I I I agree and and actually I've I've put calls into neighbors that I know own apartments and just to warn them that hey this is being discussed you you know let your whoever's taking care of your place know so so I think I I agree it's an issue but I just think it's a separate discussion because you can't you know you can't project if there but I do I I agree somewhat Sarah that I think it'd be it would be a good idea I have no idea how many like and I don't know if sta staff would know how many units there are I don't know how many units that would feel like they could partake you know what I mean so we we don't know that but I think I think and again I didn't want to put a bunch of work on staff either but I think if that's that's probably a relatively easy request to find out if I don't know it's kind it's kind of a tough question to ask I think it's a hard thing to do because once you hit okay five units one one year you might have five people in it and four bins is great and the next year there's 10 people and they're getting down on the on the landlord saying we don't have enough bins and the landlord's looking at them and saying well we you can't have more bins because that's the ordinance and then somebody else with seven units is like well I've got all these like hippies in here and they don't do any trash and they can do they can do I think it becomes hard and I think one of the reasons why we have a cut off is because then it's just done and then you're done and then you're not trying to ask what about this what about that what about if there's seven people in this what if there's 15 people who are in a you know a five unit place that only has one bedroom but that's just how they live but second second Leo it's limited by if if it fits in four it fits in four if it doesn't it doesn't so I'm not okay Council marks I just want to clarify I am not asking staff to do a person tally of who's in apartments I was simply asking if we provided the same four bins Max that we currently or three bins Max which is it we currently provide four I don't know up to four okay so if we just said that if we gave those same four bins to every rental place in town regardless of whether they have four units or they have 10 units or they have a 100 units and irregardless of how many people are in those units if we just gave them all four bins how much does that put our cost up I don't not want staff to waste time counting people and all that's way too complicated can can we agree that if there are there's some cut off it's 100 units we're not talking about just I just I just don't want this to go to committee I feel like this committee has a more important task to really work on a overall schedule of ordinances and I think this is a council issue first to decide if it's something that the whole Council wants to refer to committee or not for me the only data I need is some estimate if we gave them to everybody including if we gave them to businesses because I don't really I think the assumption is that these are businesses once we begin renting this many apartments I and I don't know I don't know that that's an accurate assumption Sarah because if you have four units you're it's in you're making money presumably as well so I I don't think that's I I think it was a volume reason why they didn't allow more than four units just because you couldn't they couldn't accommodate it but now that's changed so I I I don't know that that's your assumption I I don't think it's accurate I I don't know and and I don't think we would probably I don't think I don't know if that would have been expressed back when they were doing picking these numbers maybe it was but I also don't want to force someone to go back through 20 years of meeting minutes but okay is there any anything else from anybody else all right so the order is order 2534 order assigning the ordinance Review Committee to review the town of Oro Orin oral ordinances Chapter 30 solid waste all those in favor four in favor all those opposed two opposed so we'll take it up we'll let Rob know he's got one more thing to do when uh when we meet on Thursday so we'll have this on our agenda and I think Rob might have texted me he's watching online hello Rob so he just got back to town so um so we'll Rob will this will be something we'll talk about on Thursday thanks for um the text I'm sorry to Sidetrack us I'm doing a lot of that tonight and I apologize order 2546 could we have a motion to put that um Motion in order second moved and seconded Order 2546 an order authorizing the town manager enter to enter into an agreement with the kushman Wakefield Colorado based uh kushman and Wakefield of Colorado Incorporated based on Town staff's recommendation through the town of Oro bidding process for the appraisal of three student resident housing complexes the Avenue of the reserve and Orchard trails with funds from the fy2 operating budget uh Mitch you gonna kick this one off yeah um so this is actually in response to um we had talked uh last year around a settlement agreement and looking at um assessing um all three uh getting appraisals for all three from an outside company um it's been about since the reval it's been five years which is about a length of time in which you want to look at this these are specialized properties that it probably makes sense for Equitable reasons to do this um we had that discussion we put out uh to bid um RFP looking for this um like I said there aren't a lot of companies that do this we worked with our um our attorney to kind of Target places along with anybody else that wanted to do that um they responded they were the only one that's responded but based on the information that they've gotten their experience um and the recommendations that that we have found we feel like they'd be good um and we also felt like the uh cost was reasonable okay are there any comments from the public before we have Council discussion seeing none any Council discussion yep let's see if we can get a unanimous vote on this one um all those in favor of order 2546 okay and that passes unanimously so when Mitch when Mitch brings it up goes smoothly um Council committee reports will uh move through these hopefully quickly um Council of powers anything we're um looking at uh working on route to safety this next meeting and then we have the meeting um on the Fall Festival coming on the 18th that when spring break starts Matt that's when spring break starts so please if you're a college student um you can email me any of your suggestions we're got to work hard to overcome that and make sure people are engaged okay finance and operations committee yeah Clint has engaged uh an attorney to start drafting theou for the uh Boy Scouts uh building more to come on that uh finance committee is now reviewing uh financial statements on a monthly basis um and with a more detailed review um on a quarterly basis um moving forward that will come to council so we've already reviewed the first six months of the fiscal year um questions have been answered nothing significant a report um but expect that in May um Clint or me or whomever will bring the third quarter report um for a review by Council and discussion okay no thank you uh nominations evaluations and Council policies committee absolutely nothing we took all our time earlier good ordinance Review Committee um I guess for Rob um we have uh um we have a recommendation from staff uh so this Thursday we'll be looking at recommendations from staff U that we got from Shelly on a schedule of approval of ordinances and we'll take up uh the referral that we just got from the council this evening diversity Equity inclusion and belonging committee yeah so um one of the things that we are focused on right now is um bringing students and uh the community together to try and make it more a more cohesive Community between students and um so we are currently working on uh a um International Film like festival type thing that would be at um Webster Park so we're looking into whether it's feasible to get those um to get copyright um permission to actually show those films to the public right here on Webster Park and to bring the international students to talk about the movie and then we can all watch it and then um we also are having Outreach since in our current climate it's um there's a lot of um conflicting ideas of what deib is and so part of that Outreach is a book club um by summer Sunderland and you can find out more information at the library hi um you got a focus Mt I'm trying I'm trying I'm getting a little myopic in my old age I can see all right sorry I know I know right um and then also as part of that there is going to be an information meeting at the library on March 4th and it'll be led by um Anila car Karin car sorry what karuna car sorry and um so um please that'll be March 4th it'll be I think 5:30 5 or 5:30 you'll have to check on the library um website that m movie is just about what is Di and it's a time to find out what it's about and also have a discussion and um and we uh we are working on a number of other projects one of them some of them are in conjunction with a were walk that will be um in June and we are also um and um we have made recommendations about the um that we've sent out both to the council and also to um staff about how to incorporate deib maybe into our ongoing um um um look at where we're going as a town in 10 years and um yeah and then also we are going to be making recommendations on how to get the students in the town together for this fall festival thank you thank you Matt and my focus comment was on the camera angle for whatever reason doesn't seem to be didn't have you locked in or zoomed inappropriately uh for Council chairs update I'll share that um Council marks and I have a communication on the council goals that'll be in the Oro obser ever uh the upcoming Edition it includes an invite to the March 18th uh Workshop we're going to do on the oral Festival days so you'll see that in the Observer and we'll probably we'll find ways to share that in other um in other venues as well and Matt just to follow up on your um report in the consent agenda tonight we um welcomed or appointed two new members to the diversity Equity inclusion belonging committee want to thank those members of the community um anelia and Marina for uh stepping up and serving this is unfortunately a time where there's been some uncertainty and tumultuous um rhetoric around that work and I appreciate people stepping forward and and being a part of it so okay Town manager report uh just a couple of quick things uh the first one is March Council meetings will start at 4: because uh to accommodate um Ramadan and uh just wanted to let everybody know um that we were talking a lot about um Co enforcement and Community Development um we're having some turnover and an individual's last day is tomorrow so we need last day sorry an individual's last day is tomorrow and uh which we'll de sorely Miss but we're we're really working GNA work hard to try to keep going but it's a big loss and so be patient with our Code Enforcement office and our planning office uh during that time election tomorrow um I believe at 7 to 8 7:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. here and the last one is just for uh information standpoint if the trails by your house have been groomed that's probably the Penobscot Valley Ski Club that done that through um either agreements with the town or the land trust it's phenomenal work my dog appreciates it um as do I um we do not number 11 on our agenda this evening is public petitions we do not have any anything down there okay no just stay off the trails with your dogs please just kidding I hit him we refer it to the ordinance committee we talk about there yeah EXC um no public petitions number 12 future agenda items and Council request for supporting items does anyone have anything I'll just say I the internet didn't work for me all night long and it threw me off a little bit because I had several items that i' plan to be able to refer to by link so thank you to Amanda for the support but maybe in terms of an item of concern the public access didn't work tonight public comment any final items for public comment I have a quick thing yes um one thing I've been working on and looking into is starting a program that connects elderly and disabled homebound people with groups who can come in and clear snow from their walkways porches deck steps um so if you are a group that is interested in donating your time to help help these um help clear the snow uh please reach out and let me know I have a few groups that I I'm going to be emailing have emailed um and it might not be something we can get started this winter but maybe get it in progress for next winter got four teenage boys will be excited to hear that they have an opportunity to um I tricked them into helping one of our neighbors last winter it was pretty pretty fun um Cody I wanted to ask um you the I know you're not on Mike but is the we're on YouTube now right with these is this going to be immediately available on YouTube okay good thank you um we had then so there was no public comment and I guess we're at adjournment still before s o'clock not bad okay all those in favor can I get a motion to adjourn move second