I will call go ahead and call the meeting to order start with a roll call mcke here lanterman here bota present Baron Camp here Nichols here like to stand and join me in the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with libery and justice for all agenda approval uh looks like we have maybe a couple minor revisions uh yes mayor staff has two changes one item 7B has re has been revised and that uh copy uh for the minor revisions have been uh given to you on the dis and item 712 is removed or item 12 is removed okay anything from Council um I would can no that'll be at content so a couple other items at at 6 we can do that um other than that I will entertain a motion to approve cons or to appr approve the agenda as amended I move to approve the agenda as amended I second thank you all those in favor say I I I presentations we don't have any today open Forum uh if anyone has anything they'd like to uh state or say that is not on this evening's agenda please step up through the microphone state your name your address and speak to the council we've received no emails okay go give it a second to make sure we don't have any no one bursts through the door open we don't have we don't think we need to do a motion um okay then on to consent agenda um does anyone want to pull anything I know Mark you wanted to pull six Six B B please six which B boy as in boy yep anyone else I I would pull 6B also but okay it's already pulled we've got two requests for that uh any other items on consent if not I'll entertain a motion to approve consent agenda items 6A and 6 C through n so moved Nichol second very care all those in favor say I I okay item six B Mark and or John so if I could you know I I uh I looked up the definition of the word retainer and retainer means that a customer pays an advance for professional work to be specified later and in my my business I often receive retainers now if I look at or in looking at the the uh check request or I guess check payment on page nine of the PDF for our it vendor computer integration Tech I see uh a retainer request or a retainer payment of $2600 for September $2600 for October $2600 for November I guess my my first question is what is that for I mean normally if a vendor is paid a retainer they bill against their against that retainer and this looks like they're getting paid a retainer and they're paying us for the work that they're doing and I don't think that is correct um so I would like to know what are we paying for so I I will have to pull the contract and I can pull the contract in order to provide some more specificity for you okay uh um I don't know off the top of my head what the full scope of that is the reason there are three is um as we've onboarded our new accountant and have been taking care of some things uh we got behind in our accounts payable processing and so you'll see in several different areas we are also catching up in some of our cleaning fees and some other things uh going back until September so that's why there are multiple bills for that well I get that but taking them one at a time you know and I get the the the idea of having to play catch up and and I don't I don't have a problem with that what I have a problem with is are we paying a vendor $2,600 month after month and they're supposed to be billing a against that retainer and instead they're simply submitting more invoices to us to be paid that's what it looks like to me the the next thing that I just want to bring up and focusing on this point how many you know I'm looking down the the the row here and I see Windows computer after Windows computer how many Apple Computers do we have in this city which page is it I think I page nine oh I I don't think there are any there's iPads uh so the iPads would be the Apple product and then our Communications person I believe has an Apple computer but what is the well my my question is if you look at the Third charge up from the bottom it's for $2,815 and the memo is that that is for parallels license renewal for one year parallels is uh that's an Apple software product the oneyear renewal on parallels is $799 9 5 why are we being buil $2,181 on a $74 software update for computers that we don't have do you see where that is I see it parallels license renewal and if you simply just Google parallels it's a well-known software product we use it at my office and I and I know that it's $74 99 cents to renew every year because I had to renew it last that's let's you run Windows you can run so you can run a windows program on an Apple computer yeah so you got have both so it's a very popular very important piece of software but I never seen an Apple computer here and it doesn't run on iPads we're talking desktops and laptops we'd have to figure out how many apples we have and how many licenses we're paying well well I'll tell you what we're paying for we're paying for a lot when you when you divide $74.99 into 2181 that's 29 software licenses that were pay there and I guess if we're if we need parallels on 29 computers why aren't we just buying window computers oh looks like we have um council member um lanman so the parallels Remote application it is a one-year renewal like you stated um it possibly could be for one of our um Consultants that we use um we could look more into that and get back to you okay only because it's $74.99 to renew so our are I mean we're not talking about one we're talking about 29 29 the overall system and why wouldn't the consultant pay for their own so so it's by invoice 38551 uh we'll look into it and and get an answer back for you I don't know off the top of my head other than what we've got off of the yeah no one's disputing that we need it it's just a matter of the number of of well I don't know that we do need it if we're not utilizing Apple Computers here in the city why are we buying an emulator to run Windows software when every one of you is running Windows software yeah I'll look it I I can't answer that question right now and I'll also look into the uh what's included in pull the retainer contract I'll send that thank you and then my only other question is if you could go to the next page there is a charge from ECM Publishers for $102.9 cents for a late fee were we was that on us or is that a mistake on this what would that late be for and I the only reason I'm asking is if you go down a few more lines there's another $102.9 charge and it and the memo is October 3rd sherber sherber and Associates so so the ECM publisher is uh the Crow Valley News Crow River news Crow River news rather uh and I was different Valle before uh so Crow River news uh charges us fees anytime that we we are publishing to announce a public hearing or other required announcements uh so if was it a why is there why is it why is it marked as a delinquent fee oh no I think that's the note the public hearing we had to do for the hen county Delinquent fees oh oh that would make sense okay all right well that that makes sense maybe we could put like a re yeah I can see how it's word the way it's worded could be that challenge our accountant has because I've been pressing him to in the descriptions to to try and make it clear and not only for you but also for for Auditors uh is that he's limited to the number of characters that he use yeah I'm pretty sure that's what it is because if you look at like the other one October 24th public hearing delinquent Republic a then it gets cut off that's probably the one we had to do for recycling so that's probably one we had to do and that that makes sense I mean when I saw delinquent fees yeah and then $12.90 charge so okay yep that's it good awesome st's going to bring back the other two for so we'll get back uh we'll find the contractor for the CIT retainer and we'll look up invoice 38551 to unpack what parallel perfect parallels license renewal means when we have our own it person and also the charges associated with those retainers what are we paying the retainers for when we have our own on-site it manager would we expect some of those retainers or other charges from the consultant to be reduced absolutely yeah we're still going to need CIT to do some things for us it's just a it's a a capabilities we we're not going to have enough people to do all of the stuff uh but now we'll have somebody ideally with know how so that we're choosing what and how and when like when you talk about parallel license uh you're speaking a different language I have no idea what that means uh and I I need to rely on somebody who knows and hopefully we'll have one of those experts here soon and I'm also curious if maybe there's a markup in all of that license Administration if we're doing it through a vendor are we just paying what the software provider is charging us or is there some administrative cost that maybe we'll be saving in future yeah we're we're definitely I mean Nisha and I just looked at that uh in terms of some recent opportunities and and we decided that we would rather not have then pay the premium fee uh but in the past we just didn't have the capacity to do the scrutiny and we're going to increase our capacity and hopefully get better analysis good sounds good John you have yeah well I was gonna second that some of the stuff Mark said um so um but I also noticed that Jessica Christians and buck had a final tuition reimbursement and if it's a final tuition reimbursement do we congratulate her for finish finishing her program she hasn't graduated yet like a couple weeks left she's almost y she's almost okay well what is it what is it she's finished her master's degree of public administration MPA from haml okay so I I don't want to be the only the good cop here but so I Echo what he said but I also want to congratulate somebody for finishing their master's degree it's a big deal big deal yeah my company paid for mine and I was appreciative of that um and so I think it's a worthy note to say good job JCB for finishing your master's degree yeah we I will make sure she listens to the meeting sounds good maybe I think it's a great testimony too to the commitment that the council's made to help develop our people uh you know I've heard a lot of folks and and she's the second person to have completed her master's degree through the tuition assistance program or their master's degree through the tuition assistance program not finishes yeah so Dwight yes who so she was Dwight and JCB will be the first two yeah like another party I might be uh super Irish but it's not you said it's not done yet so everybody knock on what show some confidence I do have all the confidence in the world but I don't want to get them cosmically jinxed for it we'll celebrate JCB this meeting and then Dwight at a there you go sounds good all right um then with that I think we have those couple follow followup items but other than that um does anyone want to make a motion to approve consent agenda item 6B I so move michol second bottom up any discussion all those in favor say I I on to unfinished business uh we have two items uh first one is 7A the comp and class update uh and I think it's kind of the third part of comparable cities discussion that's correct mayor uh and so with this um we've been working to try and make sure that we get a good market analysis uh with our comparables for all of our positions we discovered initially that there were 10 positions that we had insufficient Market data uh we came back and talked with you we added uh those uh other cities in order to get better analysis and still we have six positions that don't have at least three Market matches and so rather than adding to the whole bucket of comparable cities uh we' just like to get some approval in order to as appropriate with those listed do a mix to get at least three uh market rate comparables for every position yeah and so in the in the staff report there are six positions and I forget I think it was one two I think in the uh in the PDF file it's listed as item 8A but it's actually 7A I got 7A on mine 7A mine's pull I just pulled the whatever doesn't matter online it's 8A on the website when you pull it it's 88 for everybody watching at home all all a lot of them because a lot of our people watching from home does your say uh compensation and classification update yeah it does in and that's agenda item 8 the next page it says compensation oh yes you're right it's on there twice and I think the second one is corrected yes okay it's the same information though good catch though um maybe it was a previous version of the agenda where it was eight or something like that and it just got rather have it in there twice than uh not at all when we need it so not a big deal um so for that list though uh and what Jay was saying the additional cities for the specific positions that aren't in the other 12 cities that we've identified does anyone have any feedback on those cities I do I I I guess I don't understand how we can compare ourselves to some of these other cities like Yetta and Orono um I I I just don't think that we can use those as comps and I guess I'm also wondering and and it concerns me that maybe some of these position names are kind of made up because I I don't know what a PW helper is okay and and I and I guess I'm wondering if ABDO should be considering job descriptions in addition to just job titles so so we have been doing job descriptions in fact we are meeting on them today uh that's the next phase and in order to fit them on the market and Public Works helper that is weird yeah that's that's the maintenance worker title so that's it's actually the job description other cities not not have a position like that so I I think maybe we're getting too focused on the job title instead of looking at the actual job description so they do look at the job descriptions and they have the job descriptions to try and find a like a similar so to address the first question you said about Orono and Y Zetta uh those have been historical uh comparables for the city of corkran before I came and when we first introduced the compensation classification study Council directed that we would continue to go forward with those comparables uh the other comparables the other six were added because we were having challenges uh addressing some of the job descriptions or some of the positions um it's important to note that also where they're getting their data from is collaborative with League of Minnesota cities and and so uh in order to try most be most efficient and effective with Gathering our data we're not going out there and contacting all the cities and saying what do you have who do you uh it's actually a database that LE of Minnesota cities provides access to and ABDO is gleaning that and so it's a it's a huge algorithm that they're looking at that's baning the data part of it is isn't just a job description it's what are the duties what's the level of responsibility what's the education that's required or the experience that's required for that position I think there's I forget how many categories like seven categories that they're they're hitting all that in different areas um and so all of that's going into the calculus of determining what what equates to a comparable you know I I I still don't think that we can compare ourselves to Lakefront cities that have 30 and4 million homes on private beaches I think there was some some more specific reasons that we we had like a Orno and a wi that a a like it was to try to balance out how we compare to some of these different cities in different aspects to try to have a a range of comparable points um so like if you're just comparing everything one to one with a Yetta I agree that it's gonna come out probably not useful for us um but there I don't remember what the specific data points were with Oro and Rogers but there were something I remember we discussed that made sense to have that on that initial list and and a initial list those ones are locked in it would it would cost us a lot of money uh to go back and redo all those if we decided that we didn't want it to be that because that that's feedback that we provided back April or May and and that was based on feedback or how um uh George gach has looked at other comparable cities for the last hour years he was doing market analysis for us and how to position cities or position uh job descriptions so so the ask on this one is it would impact the whole pool it would impact particular individual jobs so that we can find three comparables um and if there there's another suggested City that's not listed Albertville Big Lake Carver mamei Mound North St Paul Oak Grove and St Francis and and I believe they they think they're going to be able to get the data they need from that pool uh because they've started to do it but I told them that we couldn't pull it until we had Council approval gotcha I did a little bit of Googling on some num uh population and budget numbers on some of those cities and generally seem to make sense um there some comparables since I went to St Francis High School I can assure you that wetta and St Francis will balance each other go you're saying opposite ends of the spectrum I'm not saying anything I'm just saying different um so the ask mayor and Council would be uh to authorize us to move forward with this strategy or uh to provide some feedback on how you'd like us to change the strategy I would like it if we had a position up for conversation about compensation if we includ if we said like well our our uh I'm GNA just say PW helper such a bad name our PW helper gets paid uh a million dollars but the PW helper in Yetta and Orono gets paid $2 million so we need to up the ante here I wish there was some context within the recommendation like if a city on lake minona with an endless budget has a person that does this you know has a a just a budget that you know they don't they willy-nilly just uh hand out cash like it's oak leaves in the fall um we know who we're comparing against yeah I think it's important to note that the positions that we have left didn't fall into the cities that you're concerned about that's good uh which is part of the reason why we're broadening the scope also it's important to note as we've done analysis on almost all the other well on all the positions except for these last six uh we are actually across the city approximately 3% above the median so because of the market rate adjustments that city council has been doing over time uh there are some that are significantly out of whack that throw off our analysis that are going to have to be brought back into the Glide path but for the most part um the feedback that we're getting is is the positions are doing well comparatively right there's going to be some adjustment or cost of living adjustment and uh some some particular positions might see some some significant change all positions should expect some change if even if it's just Cola but it's it's not going to be the huge sweeping all of a sudden to address your concern we're paying Lake minetonka prices uh that's not expected uh that's what I said when when we first started this that I didn't didn't think that that's where to be and that's what the data is saying right now but for these six positions we don't have three data points in order to bracket them like council member bottom always said we have a highend and then a low end in some cases and we want more data points in order to figure out where we fit we can't do a we can't do a market analysis on just two data points we need a minimum of three to triangulate ideally more makes sense will you end up with more than three it's possible for some positions but we don't want to settle for less than three okay I'm good with this this latest list I they seem to generally fall in line with things that would be comparable do we need to make a motion no just need guidance okay all good with the the latest list yes yep ion give it good thank you all righty to is there if I can ask one more question is there a timeline on that when are we trying to get that done yes we're trying to get it done to provide you feedback of the December meeting okay thank you and it's it's been a lot of work like I said we even just met today to fine-tune the job descriptions we had almost all the job descriptions left we had worked on two of them today and there's a few more outliers that we need to get done but a lot a good progress sounds good okay on to 7B which is the revised 2025 draft 2025 budget review so mayor and Council uh I'm happy to say uh per the guidance we um have successfully been able to uh stay at a flat rate um and if you looked at analysis on uh which page is it no I don't want on the screen just a moment in your packet uh it would be page number four in the packet which shows the estimated property taxes uh off our estimate um most of our properties are actually going to experience a decrease in taxes H now part of that's because valuations have changed I can put that page up yeah uh which which page in the PDF I'm bring it up right just a second 218 219 yeah I think 218 okay thank you thanks so uh I I met with the county assessor um on Thursday and uh he's expecting it to be very similar for 2025 that's what we talked about uh and um we're going to continue we're expecting to continue you see growth I think Natalie said that as of Monday we're last Monday we're at 300 permits uh year today yeah I believe roughly 300 yeah yeah so uh which which eclipsed our numbers for 2023 uh so continued growth expecting that continued growth but for those who are already here Market values are expected to stay relatively steady not significant change uh and so as far as we're concerned uh we'll have increase tax capacity uh but not a lot of dramatic increase in you know inflation remains stady steady um so um for 2025 taxable we're actually going to see a decrease for a lot of homes in terms of the city component of the tax bill only the county could manage the same so in 2025 the bulk of the tax capacity increases would be from things that were permitted in 2022 is that correct yeah I think so so so it depends on when so I learned this on Thursday okay so they they closed the books uh I believe 1 of December so anything that's coming in by the 1 of December can hit the roles for the next tax year and then we actually realize it roughly 24 months after that because of us so it depends when the house was completed and they received their certificate of occupancy on when we can expect to see them hit the tax roles okay so it's it's hard to say when so roughly go end of by end of 22 we be seeing it on for the 2025 okay so why is there a two-year delay we askes so talking with the assessor part part of it's the just the process you know so you have to assess the property value so if I completed the house next week um if the assessor coming to assess what the actual value is compared to when last time they came out there was nothing there there's a flash to bang on that uh you know for for us there's there's a lot of homes and a lot of I understand that but they start paying their taxes the following year correct so the assessed value doesn't actually continue to hit immediately you P you pay tax on the value of the land for the first year and then the value of the house gets added at some point and then you get a jump correct yes so so you're not immediately paying taxes on everything that happened there when you'll start paying taxes on has to do with when you get your certificate of occupancy and when it's registered with the county both of those things and it it averages between 18 and 24 months is is the The Flash tobang for when we actually will get that I'm laughing because the flash tobang is um it would be interesting to have sort of like a trend of how many permits led to how much tax capacity increase so if this year would have correlated 2021 was 2022 significantly different than 2021 in terms of permits and completions little more complicated because it's also just valuation increases and decreases and decreases and really for like 21 through 204 it was largely some pretty significant increases and then I feel like it started to kind of stabilize this past this past year that they mailed out 425 from what I've seen personally what I've heard just oh people chattering about it um I did see a chart that might helpful when he came to brief me and that's showing how many new homes what new bills hit the tax roles for that year that seems like it to be the driver for us and and and so so I can get that analysis for the last couple years from the assessor's office uh now what it doesn't talk about is the valuation of the homes so we can talk about how many homes but the value of the homes is going to fluctuate based on market and then St theres will start paying significant tax in 202 six is that correct I wouldn't speculate I I'll see if I could find out but uh you know technically one October I think is when they started moving in with their c yeah yeah certificate of occupancy W October 2024 so it might not start until 2027 it would depend on what that window is and then that might be extra complicated for them because then they have that additional types of units that aren't occupied yet Contin increase them over a couple yeah I I would guess they kind of do it incrementally because not all of the facilities it could start at the beginning of 2026 but but the lion sheare of it I would suspect until Beyond and beyond Infinity but like another big chunk might come on in 28 or something depending on when they're fully occupied right that site and then if they do a future f and continue on that um yeah but great job uh to staff to getting us to that flat rate you know that's where we uh wanted to be and there was a lot of work that went into getting us from where we were on that preliminary number um I think that we did a good job with it so thank you very much thank you uh any feedback on the process I know the process that we used was way different than you've done it in the past um the desire was to have good open dialogue available for the public so they understand how the sausage is made for each of our departments uh do you feel like that was a good use of your time as we prepare for a 2026 budget I do I liked it um especially because just trying to do even if it was a few work sessions or meetings trying to do the whole thing would just get overwhelming there were so many different points that maybe I found three or four things and Mark would find three or four things and John would find you know but there maybe is only a couple that overlap and then it's just hard to get all of that whereas if we're doing Department by Department over the course of a few meetings it's easier to kind of break it down and I think a lot easier for people to follow so I like a lot easier to ch one point of the time yeah so