stand and join me in the Pledge of Allegiance I pledge Alle I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible for all all right let's jump into the agenda here item two approval of the minutes of the regular city council meeting on February 11th 201 25 I'd entertain a motion to approve those minutes move second have a motion a second all those in favor say I I any opposed motion carries a minutes are approved item three adoption of the agenda are there any changes or Corrections amendments to our agenda if not I'd entertain a motion to adopt the agenda we'll move I have a motion a second all those in favor say I I any opposed we have an agenda item four consent agenda i' entertain a motion to adopt and approve the consent agenda we move the motion is second all those in favor say I I I any opposed consent agenda is approved item five visitors and presentations we have nothing scheduled item 6A under public hearings public dog beach operations at matasa Park Mr Copy whenever you're ready all right mayor members of the council I will start by giving a brief history of the dog beach operations at mosa Park and then uh uh member of our Parks Commission is available uh following the presentation if you'd like uh him to come up and speak that would be Brian bile um so I will start with again just a brief history just to get us uh to where we're at today um so back in 2007 uh City Council made some changes to the um to allow offleash dog exercise areas um some ordinances had to be changed in order to uh get the uses to comply uh primarily with mosa Park allowing those uh that use to be adjacent to the water in in a in the uh Beach uh it also included Lakewood Hills Park and vanney Lake Park uh for the open open area ex uh dog exercise areas um it's pretty quiet until 2016 and then some public concerns regarding dog beach are heard uh 2007 2016 uh the lake level went quite down so um uh different uses of the lake than traditionally had been seen so um pretty quiet during that time frame um in 20 17 the parks advisory commission uh was requested a review and they came back with a recommend to closure um recommendation uh council did however keep the dog beach open with some Provisions so uh they included the uh having a current dog license remaining leased with a 30 foot maximum um it signs in things to better Define the area they put some buoys up and then uh just kind of they put some doway stations users must clean after clean up after themselves and then regulations posted so there were signs posted at the beach that listed all of the things that users needed to comply with um they also asked that it be reviewed after um the improvements are in place so it was in place primarily during the 2017 season in the 2018 Council uh reviewed it and um again kept the dog beach open um there was a few years where um uh kind of status quo in 2021 um again public concerns were heard regarding the dog beach um uh Council asked Park's advisory commission to review the operations um they uh made regular visits uh approached 100 visits down at the dog beach different times of the day um reviewed different things and recommending keeping the dog beach open with some additional Provisions uh again making progress towards um helping users to comply again some improved signage um the boards that were down there were felt to be very complex uh very wordy um took you a few minutes as a th readed so we Parks Commission had uh recommended putting some easy to read signs keep your dog leashed pick up after yourself things like that um also permanent fencing was installed so prior to that just kind of some temporary orange construction fence was used um to separate the seven Street s swim area with the dog beach so permanent chain link fence was um installed uh as that barrier um um kept locked uh other than for Park staff so that um people weren't leaving the gates open it extended up the hill a distance to uh use the uh Hill that goes up to the Lake Avenue Trail and Lake Avenue as as a natural barrier uh we also installed uh gates at the top of the stairs to both the dog beach and swim do areas to prevent um that uh dogs from having the ability to either go down the stairs from the Lake Avenue trail to the swim area or dogs from the uh swim Dog Swim area to go into the beach area uh we also uh found uh improved buoys there are much larger diameter buoys that spin real easy that dogs uh that our research showed that dogs do not like uh they won't swim under buoys and they had uh too big and the spacing was too close for them then go over them um continue the existing uh 30ft dog beach uh Rule and then uh continue to maintain the the bag stations and then it was also requested just kind of as a a housekeeping measure to add no fishing on the swim dock there was some issues there that we had heard at that same time uh so these are just kind of a quick map of the Improvement so we extended those uh improve booies put that chain link fence up in the gates um then in 24 we were asked again to or Parks advisory commission was again asked to review the operations how those improvements had worked through the uh 23 season and then through the 24 season as well uh we did some one of the questions that uh kept surfacing was what is the water quality at the dog beach um so at least over the last four years uh we've been uh uh regularly testing and and saving those tests uh for the both Memorial Beach as well as the dog beach s Street swim area this is 2024's testing um as you can see it's uh based on the standards of Minnesota Department of Health uh the dog beach was well below um limits I will note that um uh again not due to dogs or U primarily water fowl um and the kind of the shallower area where the Memorial Beach is that some of those numbers did exceed uh recommended um closure operations so we had one closure as well as one advisory swim advisory in the uh Memorial Beach um we also were asked to review uh police calls uh so in addition to regular police patrol down at the dog beach they stopped down there and and uh again uh over the years had gotten a number of calls um so they official calls that were lock uh between June 1st and September 12th uh there was 10 calls total uh one lost dog um that the police uh that was brought to the police department one barking complaint and then there were eight dogs at large meaning that they were dogs off leash so uh primarily due to the uh 30 foot uh rule at the dog beach that is um posted uh Parks uh commission again reviewed all of those things did again did a number of each member did a number of visits and at as fit into their schedules they visited during weekends evenings daytime tried to get all hours of the day and all days of the week covered um so a few things um that came to note was uh as the uh police began to get calls on the leash uh rules and the dogs being off leash uh come to find out the city's code conflicts with that 30 foot rule even though that was um a recommendation by Council the ordinate still uh requir or actually allows in designated areas uh pets to be off leash in those designated areas so it's conflicting so they weren't able to issue citations in those cases cuz the ordinance uh rules over that um so after reviewing that uh uh Park submission um and and interviewing uh users of the beach and interviewing interactions at the beach actually recommend that the uh ordinance be changed to uh the no lease requirement at the uh dog beach versus a 30 foot uh uh rule that is posted um also uh just to better Define the area add signage um entering exit the dog Beach area that was a request of the police to um once we get everything into compliance that they're able to better um uh administer the city's ordinances so it's clearly defining that area um Parks Mission considered fencing the southide but I didn't see a ton of violations on that um side of things however it could be done if um Council were to wish um they also recommended that potentially extending the buoys so we have a 100 ft of the uh improved buoys uh seem to work very well from our observation staff and and uh the Parks Commission um but it's kind of a safety measure with fluctuating water levels uh we could add another 50 ft to the uh end of the existing buoys to help Define that better and then uh the commission also um a new uh U position that um is recommended is the lake shore seasonal C SOS that would be focused on the uh the city's Lake Shore Long Lake Avenue basically from um all along the Lake Shore that um the city owns so we have a number of different um Parks the marina uh the beach uh mosa launch area so just kind of enforcing all of the rules along the lak shore so uh the commission does support that if Council moves forward with um those positions so again the improvements uh pretty basic that the uh Parks Commission is just extending those buoys out again another uh 50 ft uh just to get out a little bit past the uh uh the dock I will note on this air photo this is a current air photo we did uh just due to the lake levels we used every section of dock that we could to uh maintain that swim dock uh it is the yde dock that's typically south of the dog Beach area just not to confuse anybody in the audience that's uh wondering where this is at but um this was just kind of something that we had to put together in 2024 to uh keep that swim dock available um so tonight uh staff would recommend um as the letter states to hold a public hearing again Council request that no action be presented tonight and then uh direct staff to bring you recommendation recommendation for consideration of the Council on March 11th uh with that be happy to answer any questions or Mr bile is available uh as a represent on the Parks Commission why don't we hear from the Parks Commission Mr bile if you're ready and available I'd like to say good evening mayor council members good evening thanks for this opportunity um one thing I'd like to do is introduce our mention our Park commission members we spent a lot of time we spent lot of time not just this issue but visiting parks and just overall trying to make the park system as good as we can but members of our Park commission are Victoria Bean Mark surmac Anastasia Davis Anastasia Davis Jenny Davis um Bill gansin Mike Shepard um Bill's on vacation Mike is working and um Anastasia is ill but we do have Victoria Mark and jinnie so if they wouldn't mind standing so people know kind of who they are know as our represent additional Representatives so um kind of going over the notes and Paul covered an awful lot and he did a good job with the history um when I'm going back to I wasn't a Parks Commission member going back to 2016 we maybe had one member who was a a member of the commission at that time that I'm not sure so I think most of our current commission members have been on board since 20120 approximately so as I'm going through the history I'm going back to 2022 um and I went through all minutes and try to compile this I think we had roughly two residents that requested closing a beach or re relocating the beach and so after that um conversation um The Parks Commission adviser commission had numerous conversations and we decided we're going to um visit the actual dog beach and we so we did this independently it wasn't as a group we did this independently and we total up about 70 visits took made notes and that information has well been documented um it went back to 20123 I think at that point the council kind of reviewed it and voted to keep the dog beach open 2024 kind of we needed to readdress the issue um city manager Crawford suggested that we make some additional site visits which we did and again we had some numerous conversations um at our committee meetings commission meetings so that time we had um for 2024 we did about 30 visits so over the last two years we've done about 100 independent documented visits so just going over our observations um compiling the notes we've we've really seen few problems um at the dog beach there are dogs off the leash usually if they're off the leash they're in the water and understanding that policy may change um we didn't really experience a lot of barking not saying there was no barking but it was we felt it was minimal and usually wasn't for a very extended period of time um we didn't experience see experience any aggressive dog behavior and actually went back this goes back maybe to 2022 um I had a conversation or actually worked kind of directly indirectly with the city manager the police chief at that time gathered some information as far as dog problems and I think there was one dog biting incident but it not happened on the beach it happened on the trail so I'm not aware of any dog biting incidences um the beach area overall is very clean not saying that there isn't occasionally a bag left when I inspected it this year or last year I did notice a bag or two that were left I'm thinking it was more accidental I think overall the dog owners are very careful and respectful of the beach um so we did not really see many dogs cross the buoy because of that's a spin barrier it makes it difficult for a dog to actually cross the buoy I'm not saying they never cross it but very very limited and I think the buoy spinning buoy has really assisted very well in keeping dogs in that contained Beach area um so basically then next point would be the Parks Commission voted 70 in favor of keeping the dog beach open in 2022 we voted 70 recommending to the council to keep the dog beach open in 2024 Paul did a nice job as far as recommending changes I think one that would help us is the removing the leash requirement because there was really too many police calls that were made pertaining to dogs off leash and it wasn't in didn't match up with our code and we really it's not the best use of our police officers time is to have them go over down to that beach and request that you know you leash up your dog when it isn't even wasn't even part of our Municipal Code I think the signage will help the CSO community service officers will help in that Beach area but they're going to help in that whole area they'll help from Memorial Beach probably Ramsey Beach Memorial Beach matosa Park they're going to help that whole area especially during a busy times that's the decision Council will make you know when they do it is on weekends when it's real busy um but I think that could be Ben official and we're talking about I think this Deion was made at least the recommendation possibly would be to extend those spin buoys out further it's a little difficult sometimes with the fluctuation in the lake level and the cleanliness of the lake I think Paul did cover that um not sure but I think possibly a lot of that ecoli issue is related more towards waterfall than animals or people so I'm guessing that the beach would be the beach closed one day this was I was told by someone that had some environmental background so I'm not I don't have the scientific data on that so my closing statement I like guess um the majority of the residents that we talked to and met with like the dog beach and they want to keep it open it provides a social connection for not only the dog owners but there's also individuals that dislike to watch and as we're getting into the society people the social component is important that's one reason our parks are so valuable so third last point is I think the benefits far outweigh any problems or concerns and we have to remember nothing is 100% perfect so thank [Applause] you before we begin the public hearing this is probably a good time to remind everyone whether you support what someone says uh or not please don't applaud it's only going to delay things and we've got a lot of people to get through so I want to get and hear from everybody that we can um but please don't applaud you'll get the Gabel and it's just going to delay things before we do begin the public hearing I do want to publicly recognize the park commission uh for all of your hard work on this um this goes back to when I was on the park commission eight years ago um so I know what you guys did the folks you talked to and grappling with this these issues and for those folks that don't know um the park commission like all of our other citizen advisory commissions are just Volunteers in the community residents our neighbors that are volunte during their time um don't necessarily have an agenda just want to try and make good decisions doesn't mean we always agree with each other but um I do thank you for all of your efforts and with that I will open the public hearing I do want to lay a couple of ground rules as I've already said please uh don't applaud um people can speak whether you agree or not um just let them speak and get their comments out I'm going to start with residents first um I'm looking around there's a lot of people we want to get through so we're going to we're going to try and be at that uh 2-minute Mark um is you're a lot of time to speak um I'm going to going to enforce that um and I'm going to ask you to try and avoid repeating yourselves if someone that spoke before you is already said that it's perfectly okay to say I agree with so and so on that issue or I'm here in favor of closing the dog beach or I'm here in support of keeping it open um so we'll do residents first I do have a list if I don't call your your name whether you're a resident or non-resident that doesn't mean you can't speak um if you didn't sign up on this list that's okay uh we'll make sure we get to you so residents first then I'm going to do uh non-resident property owners in the city of White Bear Lake those folks will go second and then um I'm confident we'll have time to allow this but we'll have to play it a year then we'll hear from non-residents third um and we'll see where we're at at that point uh what hour it gets to be in terms of what the time limitations will be for non-residents but for now um we'll get things going with residents when you do come up to the podium please speak directly into the microphone and begin by stating your name and address and then uh give us your comments so with that we're going to start marching through the list here and of course the first name on my list I can't read or pronounce but we'll say the resident from 2291 9th Street uh if you could please come up state your name and address again for the record that would be great thank you I'm Kim Keen good old German name um and I live at 2291 9th Street in Whitebear Lake I am a 26- year resident and I am pleased to be in front of you all again uh 26- year resident I've had three dogs during that time two of those dogs have used the dog park both when it was and was not an official dog beach my current dog hates the water so will not go down I walk along Lake Avenue from West Park to the what used to be Jiffy Lube I don't know what it is now but anyway I walk along there almost every day uh I have had a kayak and a johnboat down by the shore uh during that time I've never had an issue over there was about a 9-year overlap if you will uh when the boats and things were down by the the dog beach I never had any issues accessing my kayak nor the John Boat um there are poop bags which are greatly appreciated at the top of the stairs I have never experienced any random poop and I've actually seen some people pick up other dogs poop uh sometimes we do those kinds of things right especially if you're a parent on top of all of that um I think that the council and the Parks Commission is responding incredibly well in monitoring our investment in the dog beach uh and making changes as we go along uh rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water and I appreciate that um I was drawn to White Bear Lake because I think it is a dog Community I think it is a dog community and I know that they're a part of the community because the first item on the consent consent agenda was to close Main Street for a dog parade and we have a number of patios in downtown White Bear Lake that allow dogs to come as well and so what I would actually like for you to do is keep supporting the dog beach and make changes and deal with individual people who violate the the rules and regs rather than punishing everybody for the Discretions of a few I appreciate you listening thank you thank you very much and for those keeping track that was right about at 2 minutes so we can we can stay at that that'd be great all right the next name on my list is Dave Anderson 5799 Otter Lake Road uh hi I'm Dave Anderson from uh 5799 Otter Lake Road um I'm here in favor to keep the the dog beach open uh I prepared a few notes here um first I want to commend the park commission they've done a great job down there with the with the rocks and access fencing the floats I mean well done I've been using the dog beach for about 4 years and without exaggeration I've been there 150 times um during the my visits and my wife and my kids um we've never had a dog fight never had a parking dog never had a confrontation with another user um never had a confrontation with a homeowner and never trust on private property um I think I'm pretty well represented as far as the demographic that uses the beach um we're in a community that's a workingclass people we all respect other people's properties so I think we're fortunate to have the demographic we do and have the resource of White Bear Lake to to utilize um the dog beach it's a high use Park that offers a recreational opportunity for all age groups and physical capabilities with with the exception of the stone steps I kind of question the the accessibility there for some elderly people or people with limited capability that's something the commission may want to take a look at uh the park benches are often used by residents who sit above and watch um the owners in their pets so that's not only us that are in the water but um other residents of the community as well um it's a clean Beach and has virtually no impact on the lake or the protected Shoreline so from the standpoint of longevity and care of the lake you know there's no no downside there whatso ever um it's got minimal to no maintenance on the the park bu budget or the taxpayers um of the community very low Capital cost with the exception of the fence and the and the buoys um I think there's some additional things we could do but I'll bring that up right at the end I think everybody here um in this room has seen people sitting in the sand with their pets waiting out to their knees or waste and playing with their dogs um that's uh that's really what Recreation is all about in this day and age I honestly don't understand why you'd want to vote against a wholesome outside activity which serves every age group and provides an environment that is safe and not dependent upon technology police protection requires a costly ticket of admission I see children with their parents grandparents upper and middle-aged couples and individuals using the park the dog beach is extremely well used and cared for the Council should visit every Park in this community they are virtually empty unless there's an organized in event in contrast the dog beach is highly used during the day evening and weekends by a wide range of taxpayers of this community um closing the the dog beach um I think benefits a few at at the cost of you know unfair cost to the public the council may you know want to consider a couple minor upgrades such as extended fencing adding garbage cans and improve the parking you know let the community enjoy the dog park um I debated on bringing this this point up and well Mr Anderson you're at about 3 minutes and 20 seconds so I'm going to have have to ask you wrap it up okay I'm done yeah I appreciate it thank you all right thank you again uh next name on the list is Rachel Bonin good evening Mr mayor council members my name is Rachel bonnan I live at 4871 Lake Avenue uh there's tremendous support for the dog beach here uh which is excellent feedback I think for all of you um dogs are very important to us and as our dog amenities uh as this tremendous support shows 40 ft on the lake between 7th and 6th Street is just not the location for such a populated and popular dog beach this postage stamp of land virtually in the front yards of citizens cannot support this amenity we the neighbors of the dog beach complain about nuisance barking trespassing parking congestion property damage and water quality concerns we have researched Parking Solutions functional solutions that work in other dog parks we've identified and suggested alternative locations and cooperated with City officials and safety personnel to attempt to problem solve all of these issues to no avail we have submitted proof of the offenses time and time again and we are denied that they are true we have no recourse for any of these issues we submitted a petition requesting that the beach move or the the city excuse me move the dog beach it is not a petition of 750 names it is a petition of those of us who are most affected those who have signed this consist of neighbors living within close proximity who have regular Beach interactions among them are swim dooc users Renters of boats and slips and sail Moorings and nearly 50% of us are current dog owners not dog haters you've received details letters from many of us most of us and others will speak here tonight if there's time this petition is testimony to the problematic nature of the dog beach at its current location and our exhausted attempts to try to solve it I'd like us not to be confused about the issue I care about my fellow citizens the location of the dog beach is the problem please move it before something awful happens to someone or someone's pet I know we have insurance for that but that's really not going to hold a lot of water and make us feel better if it's your son or your daughter or your beloved pet thank you for your time thank you all right the next name on the list is 4885 Lake Avenue greetings to all you Council people and the mayor um my name is Ann lingal and I live at 4885 Lake Avenue my husband Scott couldn't be here tonight but I speak for both of us and we back everything that Rachel just said um and I have a couple things to add uh our our quality of life has decreased since that dog beach has been there um we go we love to spend time down at the lake um enjoying the lake and with our family down there and we have had numerous times where we're sitting on the dock and it's cons it's barking barking barking and I know people have said oh they've stopped down there and they've looked and there hasn't barking sometimes it's continuously sometimes it's consecutively a lot of times it's frequently if you get somebody who comes down there with a dog that's excited and and the owner holds a toy up and they get the dog all excited well that's what dogs do they bark and they bark and bark and bark until the owner throws the toy in the water and it's been my experience and my family's experience that a lot of dog owners are so used to their dogs barking that they don't realize that it's a problem that it's other people are having to hear it and I mean we'll have our house closed up the air conditioning on we can still hear the dogs barking in the house and when this happens all day long on weekend or even half a day it's too much I I talked to a a relative today and said well I was going to this meeting tonight and she said oh man she remember when last summer we were sitting down on your Dock and I asked you if those dogs down there ever stop barking and I said sometimes but a lot of times they don't and I am have another concern about you're talking about the buoys and the fencing that's put up down at the at the at the dog beach well that's all fine and dandy but what happens when the lake level shrinks as it seems to do in a cycl matter and what if we end up with two or 300 feet of beach again how are you going to put that much fencing and buoy down buoys down to the water in the past we've had dogs break loose from down there come ripping down the beach come up and into Gatherings we've had down on our yard down there take food off a toddler table sitting there eating hot dogs take we've had big groups down there and a big dog comes down there and wipes out the whole buffet table of food that we've had for 20 guests and this is not an exaggeration it happens and it's scary and and I'd like to know you know how do you control that other than you know do do we do we throw rocks at them do we call the police by the time they get there the damage is done and as far as the community officers down at the um down at the dog beach or down at the matasa park I've sat on my Dock and watch Community officers down there making nice with the dog owners while there were dogs then and they're barking and off leash when we had leash laws when when that leash rule went into effect I'd say maybe two out of 10 were ever on a leash down there so you know that's kind of a mood Point M lingle I'm sorry we're coming up on about the same time as the last time I cut time I cut the other gentleman off but okay I just want to be fair to both sides all right thank you very much I appreciate it all right we've got Jeff Johnson is next on the list all right thank you for the opportunity for all of us to share tonight my name is Jeff Johnson at 4910 Morhead Avenue I have lived in the White Lake area for 36 years we're just a couple blocks from the dog park and we have Labs most of our life and boy they love to go swimming in the lake and and but from what I've observed over the years is the mosa dog park is a multi-use space with multi with multiple stakeholders and this space is used for families of white bear to swim picnic and fish and includes those who have paid to rent space to keep their watercraft on the lake during the summer uh there's enough rental space to accommodate 100 or excuse me 74 uh watercraft which which was already mentioned you know the canoes The Kayaks and the sailboats and the boat skids and our family has also um rented a kayak there for over 25 years and what we have ex have experienced is that this is a multi-use space it this multo space is is where the dogs run around and defecate and urinate and repeatedly there is dog feces around the kayak canoe racks even if the dog feces is picked up there's still a residue that remains it makes it unsanitary to walk around Barefoot and there are dogs that also defecate and urinate in the water and I did go to the dog park years ago I haven't been going for quite a time and my dog was one of them that urinated and defecated into the lake um I have looked online and you know most dog parks in Minnesota have acres of land for the dogs to run and play and the matosa dog space can be measured in square feet and to put this into perspective one acre is 43,560 square ft uh the area that's designated just for the dogs to defecate urinate is 1,400 ft and that's 31 times smaller than say a typical dog Park where I've observed and some of the doc Parks Minnesota are multi Acres the conclusion I have come to is that this is not a fight against doc Parks I love dogs and and I I love having my dog having fun but but it is the location of the mosa dog park is simply not suited to safely and respectfully accommodate all the stakeholders in this small space thank you thank you right is Brian Bonnet good evening good evening Council Brian bonnan 4871 Lake Avenue I was going to pass I have sent multiple photos to the Council of dogs in my immediate hand length eating off trying to eat off my plate at my property I just want to make sure that's on record more and more residents and non-residents are wanting to use this beach again I I think that's great but we're we we have a list of like nearly 750 people that that sounds much more like a regional Beach and now we're advising to go more off leash and we have rising and falling lake levels how am I supposed to expect I'm not going to have more dogs off leash in my property please close this location and just move it please close it and and just move it there's a make demand for something this location is just too small thank you thank you all right I have Matt Wilson next good evening thank you for the chance to share with you my name is Matt Wilson I live at 4877 Johnson Avenue about a block uh from the lake it's a privilege for me to walk a block with my paddle board walk down uh to the beach get out to my sailboat be sailing within just a few minutes um I'm very grateful that's why I moved to White Bear Lake 5 years ago um basically I I basically agree with the sentiment of there's just not enough space for all of the things all the activities that go on in matasa um I when the Y do is in its normal location which is the sailboat dock very regularly um I would need to uh I would see um dogs and dog owners and their kids swimming around the wi do I would have to call out to them as I'm coming in to to um pick up passengers at the Y do and have to get them out of the way for their own safety um I've also used the Seventh Street dock the swim dock a lot and uh just last summer after the barriers were put up um I was accosted by a barking dog off leash in the swim area um I understand that the dog beach is very popular I just would say there's not enough space for it there um I'm concerned about extending the spin buoys further because that starts to impede The Boat Boat traffic especially uh when the lake is low um it it really starts to encroach into the Sabo area um I would like to recommend that the the dog park be be moved to another location um I would also like to recommend that the council consider adding more racks because there are quite a few neighbors um my neighbor direct next door who are retired and they have were told that when they tried to sign up for the kayak rentals the wait list is so long that we it's not even worth putting your name on so it would be really wonderful I would very much uh prefer that the matasa landing be mostly about the voting so thank you thank you uh I believe it's Connie McCall 4901 Stewart or Conor my apologies it is [Laughter] definitely um council members m m thank you for taking giving me the opportunity to speak um my name is Conor Mcall at 4901 Stewart Avenue um my wife and I moved here in 2021 we're drawn by the wable wable welcoming downtown community um we discovered the dog beach after we moved um our anxious dog doesn't get to go there except when it's empty which we find is pretty frequent actually um especially in the mornings and evenings um this is about my dog's happiness the dog beach Fosters neighborhood connections um boost local businesses like our favorite coffee shops and ice cream parlers and has been part of the community for 20 years it is not perfect um it is definitely true um users in the cities should continue to work to improve the use but I visited that part of Lake Avenue most days it's busy and vibrant um and the always been bustle and experience isn't just from the dog beach um there's a mix of families chatting children playing boats entering and leaving the lake um dogs bikers Runners on the path um closing the dog beach would remove a cherish amenity and likely would um we would continue to have noise and traffic which is part of living by this bustling environment um I sent you the collection of 700 signatures and 200 com comments in support of the dog beach I hope you take a chance to read through them um and I hope you keep the dog beach open thank you thank you all right next up is Peter neelon thank you I don't know if you heard that we're having some trouble hearing so everyone please speak my name is Peter neon I live at 2165 12th Street the dog park we've been lived there for 30 plus years now we built the house there and the dog beach has been such a big thing for our family my wife she right now she's doing the dog on the leash it's a 30 foot leash she'll do it on that but she also said that if the beach was closed she'd probably be breaking the law because the dog wants to swim and a lot of people have dogs that way there's barking but I've had dogs barking that aren't on the beach they're at houses along Lake Drive there or Lake Avenue uh when I've been at the dog beach I have not seen any problems with the dogs we're very happy to have that and it's a very necessary item for the neighborhood for the whole Community I want to thank the council for listening to this and for the parks department for their response and their checking all the doing all the tests of the water quality and all that and the noise and res complaints people have thank you thank you 2281 4th Street Amy Bartholomew good evening can you hear me thank you so much for taking the time to be here tonight to listen to the the interest of the community um I live at 2281 4th Street my name is Amy Bartholomew um it's several blocks from the dog park but my husband and I have a sailboat that we've had on a moing ball at matasa for about 10 years um like one of the other people who spoke we actually either swim out to our sailboat or we take our paddle board out to our sailboat um and so to get there as you saw from some of the um illustrations earlier like we have to go directly through the dog beach in order to get to to our morning ball um in all the times we probably go out maybe once a week in the summertime so um over the last 10 years never once have I ever encountered a dog that was unruly I've never encountered a dog that was aggressive I've never seen poop in the lake um I realize that that might be a concern for people um but I it's not something I've experienced I appreciate the fact that the Parks Board has gone out and done studies and they haven't seen those things they haven't experience those things so again as someone who is is doing this once a week in the summer time I think that I have a you know a good sense of it um one of the things that I think is great about White Bear lake is that it's a really dog friendly community so it's not just those of us who live here but those of us who come here and spend money here so people might come and go to the dog park with their dog but they can also go to shops with their dog they can go to the art preserve they can go to frat alon's hardware store they can go to sassa health food store um they can go to the liquor store they can go to the bank like all of those places welcome dogs and then there's also a a bunch of um restaurants bars and restaurants that offer dogs so you have um Washington Square who has a great dogf friendly patio you have tall um Admiral D's you can bring your dog to marketfest in the summertime and you can stop at um Ford deces with your dog and watch music so I guess I I would just ask the community or ask the city Council to think about like what message that sends to the people who might be coming here and spending money in our shops in our restaurants what message does it send if we say we're closing the dog park and your dogs aren't welcome here anymore um that's all thank you very much for your time thank you okay next up Mary nski 4830 Johnson have hi city council Mr Mayor thanks for listening to me and listening to all these people with wonderful comments um I moved into my house in 2009 uh the dog beach was there when I moved in as was Lake Avenue as was the boatland as was all the other parks that are near our home in our wonderful Community um when the dog beach when he um the city engineer talked about how the lake level went down and there was a problem with the dog beach because there was no separation and I was in agreement that yeah there has to be you know there's it's a dog beach we have to have a little bit of Separation if we're going to have people swimming and dogs and I just have to commend the Park Board who has volunteered thousands of hours of time um in the past 10 years or so and the city council who've done a fantastic job listening to everybody on all sides of the issue um because I know it's it's a hard issue however um after the improvements are made we've spent all this money on it now I I rarely see a problem down there I have seen some problems it's not 100% but I rarely see problems down there and we've spent time and money on this park that people really enjoy and I can't help but think this isn't about the dog beach um we live in a community that has to share and I live a block away from this dog beach I live a block away from the boat landing I am much more bothered by the boat landing and the people parking their trailers in front of my driveway many times and leaving their garbage in my yard or their dogs from their boats pooping in my yard so if I can hear that a block away I can hear the dog I can hear the boat landing I cannot hear the dog beach so I'm wondering why we aren't talking about the boat landing so we've got a boat landing there that causes a lot of problems I've seen people in their boats almost hit kids who were swimming at the beach I've seen a lot of problems with the boat landing so why aren't we talking about the boat landing I bought my house knowing I was going to have to share my community I used to live in a very quiet area I wanted to live in a community that shared their community and I'm just so happy to live in this community and I can't believe that we are going to listen to a handful of people that are lucky enough to live across the street from this park which was has been there since 2007 so many of the people who live there bought their house knowing there was a dog beach there it's almost like moving in to a farm with dairy cows and and building your house there and then saying well this is really bothering me these cows are mooing and they're pooping but I mean well but you bought a house there I bought my house knowing the the boat landing was there and I'm not calling the city complaining all the time about people parking and their dogs pooping in my yard or they're them leaving trash in my yard I'm not doing that because I know I live in a community and I have to share it and if we I think it sets a bad precedence to think that if people who live across the street from all our parks in Whitebear Lake can dictate how those parks are used there's going to be problems when you buy your house there the the value of your house reflects the price when you bought it across the street from a park or across the street from a boat landing or across the street so I I just think that we you know people are enjoying this place we have to share our community I think that's what our community is about thank you for listening to me thank you ma'am all right next up Sandy Flint 1729 Florence Street hi hi I'm um Sandy flint and I live at 1729 Florence Street I've uh been in the community for about 30 years years and we've used the dog park we have several dogs um and they've just really enjoyed it there um there has been a little issue sometimes when you mix leashed dogs with Unleashed dogs so it does make sense to have one one policy at the park um but other than that we've just had uh enjoyed a lot of time with our dogs at the park and I just want to thank you for sharing or for listening to us thank you right Kelly whan is next good evening and thank you for the opportunity to speak with you tonight I've been following this issue by watching the City Council meetings um online and following the notes um so so happy to be here to communicate with you in person I'm here in support of the dog park I live at 21991 Street um so a bit away from the dog park I have two dogs currently and we often visit the dog park and we have great experiences there I would agree that we need to kind of come up with a either leash solution or an offleash solution because that does present some issues amongst the dogs I'm concerned that we continue to spend taxpayer dollars on an issue that has been settled multiple times for several people that feel that they do not want the dog park in their front yard and I think that behooves the you know city council and especially folks that are representing our area to consider their constituents when they're making decisions related to the dog park I'd also like to add that there were conversations um in both the notes that were shared from the the commission as well as from the city engineer related to both of report of a dog bite in 2022 as well as a lost dog in 2024 and I believe if you take more time to research those they're actually related to experiences I personally had neither of which were related at all to the dog park or were located near the dog park so I would suggest that the city council take time to review the notes on those police calls to confirm that they are not related to the dog park again I support this my family supports this I know there are a number of people who cannot be here tonight to support this and I'm also trying to speak for them as well because I know that they couldn't be here because of other obligations I also know that there are many uh residents and users of the dog park that are not aware that this conversation is happening right now because they may not be as clued in as some of us are to the city council they may not be following the local newspaper so I'm speaking on behalf of them as well thank you thank you all right Janine Rowan boach clerk 2505 sky blue Court hello hi there Janine rumo Clark my address 2505 Sky BL Court I've been here for five years and have a dog that she has a pretty extensive vocabulary and one of her favorite things is she's learned to identify the lake as big water and uh in the spring first time that I say we're going to big water she gets very excited so um she has enjoyed the park as of I with her I walk about five miles a day in town and I just wanted to say that I have had multiple experiences with dogs off leash far away from the dog park um one time was a fairly aggressive dog fortunately we didn't get bitten but this is not an issue that's only taking place in the rare occasions that it has taken place apparently in that General vicinity I experience it in multiple neighborhoods so this is this is just something that happens and shouldn't happen but not unique there the other thing I would just say is that um again to put in perspective I think there are multiple areas of the city at different times that get rather noisy and um again these are community events and they get loud and that's just part of enjoying um excitement and and community events and um again my time at the beach I've never experienced any problem um so I'm I would put those in perspective as being rare in the in the context of many many people and many many dogs enjoying the beach which I'm in support of thank you very much a resident at 2335 7th Street thank you for your time mayor city manager council members support staff I live at 2335 7th um my name is Keith smelzer we moved to this home or this area 56 years ago at a time when there was uh no dog beach there was no steps down to the lake and uh I I've prepared a couple of comments I'm going to read them so I don't miss anything uh 56 years ago we moved into our home in this neighborhood and at that time homes along Lake Avenue from 7th South to 6th along the shoreline uh where there's currently a swimming beach a dog park and Boat Storage both on Shore and on City uh buoys were being used as private property with private docks and no trespassing a few years after that we moved in a group of neighbors decided they would like to uh make this a public space and they ended up building some steps down to the down to the lake well that riled up a few people and subsequently a lawsuit was filed and it turned out rightly so that that property along between 7th and 6th from the middle of sth down to toward the landing was declared private was declared uh public and still is um this stretch of Shoreline beginning at the center of 7th where the steps are now located was open to the public for Access uh accessing tethered boats public use of the beach and especially for swimmers of all ages often with their parents the Seventh Street stairs the dock the beach area not only accommodate swimmers but for years we have observed families with canoes kayaks paddle boards small paddle paddle boats carrying or Wheeling them down to access the lake at the End of the Street families from all around the area not just this immediate Neighborhood use the swimming area it's cozy it's a small area where parents can can be close to their young swimmers as they enjoy the water our three children pretty much live at the at the 7th Street beach and as do both of our young grandchildren I have to say that our grandchildren have since moved out of the area so I'm talking in terms of uh my usage up within the last two years but 50 some years earlier uh not only do we observe families who drive to the neighborhood so their youngsters can swim and play at the 7 Street dock it's nice to see grandmas and grandpas moms pushing their strollers carrying beach toys as they walk by our way on a day to the beach during the summer our two grandchildren and I uh my wife wrote this during the summer my grandchildren and I are a common sight as they carry their fishing poles down to the lake early in the morning never fail they always come home with a few few sunnies occasional no crappie clean them and we fry them for their lunch for the afternoon the kids and I return to the swimming Dock and swim they swim for the rest of the afternoon into the evening as a personal comment I'm at that dock not as an observer but as a four or five hour time frame so when someone says I've observe this I don't know how long they've observed it I can say to you I observed things for a significant amount of time sir I'm I'm going to let you finish cuz In fairness I honestly don't know which way you're falling on this issue um so it's fair for both sides but you're at four minutes but I'm going to give you a little more time to finish up two minutes wow all right now you don't ask you don't get the two minutes you got please our experiences with the seven Street swimming dock area over the 56 years we've been have been positive and it's one of the reasons we continue to live here truthfully we are accustomed to living with heavy use of the surrounding area for manit Days parade for man for Market Fest parking by the way parking does come down almost to the lake uh July 4th fireworks and in the in the what is new in this uh with is the significant re use of the dog park and although some dog owners pick up after their dogs it's not uncommon for some not to um I'm not blaming the dogs but that's their kind of their uh natural thing given the fact that really the issue in my mind is this is an extremely small area with multiple use things it's too small for a dog park it's obviously very popular and highly used but I think the city needs to consider relocating the dog pork to a larger area that's controlled I know there are a number of dog parks within the within the state that are highly popular and regulated some for large dogs some for small dogs uh at any rate my interest and others in the neighbor uh is to have the city consider moving the dog park it's not so much that the dog park isn't popular I believe the evolution of the dog park has grown like Topsy and it's probably a consideration that if it had been studied earlier would make sense to say dog parks and swimming beaches uh swim Beach and dog beach should not be adjoined thank you very good thank you all right ad Jason Sher at 2338 7th Street hello thank you for the opportunity to speak uh my name is Jason sheret I live at 2338 7th Street uh just a couple doors off of Lake Avenue uh I grew up with a handful of Golden Retrievers so I'm a dog lover I understand what it's like to have a space where you can take your dogs off leash run around enjoy the water enjoy the space um I also have two young kids now um I have Ian age six Natalie age four um unfortunately we have had some aggressive interactions with dogs at the at the dog beach um as a result of being off leash so dogs coming through the fenced areas around the buoys up and over the hill um coming into the beach area and I've had to have a few instances where I've had to grab a dog hold it down who's come towards my children and then I've had to go talk with the owners I've usually not been one to call the police because I don't enjoy using the city's resources for that so go deal with the owner myself if I actually called the police I could drown the police in calls but I don't do that um I think in my opinion having a space for the dogs be offleash and to play is a huge asset to the city so I understand how important that is to the people here and the community my proposal is I like a lot of the other people here it's too small of a space being a join to the swimming beach next to the the boat launch next to the canoe area is just too many things in one space and the dogs being off leash just further compounds the issue so at a minimum I think the dogs need to be on the leash at the best I think relocation is the best option thank you thank you Lori Hughes hello Lori Hughes 4984 Stewart Avenue Mr mayor council thank you very much for being here tonight to hear us all um I'll be quick this a public park it's for everyone it's not just for the boaters it's not just for the people who like to jet ski it's not just for the people who like to walk on Lake Avenue it's not just for the people who like to bike or swim or bird watch or whatever it is a public park and it's available for everyone that's what public means it's a amenity that we share in our community and I hope that we keep it that way thank you thank you Mike amonson uh hi Mike almanson uh 1880 Ivy Lane and for those of you not familiar with Ivy Lane that's way down in Ward five down on the south end of town um I've noticed a lot of the addresses tonight have been really close to the dog park um and I wanted to bring in that kind of other voice um I've had my dog now three years and we take almost weekly trips up to the lake because the walk by the lake is just special it's a little different than walking around in the neighborhood and having the dog park be a part of Lake Avenue is a huge resource um I have other neighbors that you know we talk as we walk our dogs around and they say the same thing you know we love every once in a while being able to go up to Lake Avenue and knowing there is the uh dedicated spot right there as you're you know walking Lake Avenue um to be able to say this is where I can put my dog in whereas if this was closed um like one of the previous uh commenters said that you know maybe we just go on Ramsay Beach and walk the dog into the lake because it's a hot summer day or West Beach or the boat launch or suddenly have dogs in the water in all the areas and having this one Beach uh dedicated for the dogs is is great and um sorry let me just check my notes um you know as we've seen there's the marina is always overflowing the boat launch is always overflowing I think we're just seeing the same thing here the dog beach is very popular because being on a lake in Minnesota Summers is important to everybody so I hope we keep the option um keep it open and let everybody keep using the dog beach thank you thank you Dave Peterson Council mayor thank you for having me my name is Dave Peterson I live at 4152 Whitebear Avenue I'm in I'm in favor of the dog beach um having a senior dog uh walking him around on the hot Pavement in the summer is difficult he's got Mobility problems being able to go to the dog beach is huge for him I can take him down there he can float he can swim it's low impact on them it's great I love going down there I've met so many people just observing so many people dogs just people in the community enjoying you know this public space it's fantastic we do put a pontoon boat in there now I have seen issues with dogs off leash those the ones I've seen are people coming coming or going from the boat launch itself lighting their dogs off their boat getting their dogs back onto their boat I've seen dogs go ripping around all over I haven't had or or seen issues with with dogs around the beach itself yes you know there's there's been poop and stuff like that that happens it gets picked up the beach has been very clean um I enjoy waiting out there myself you know with my dogs when it's hot um you know I I think it's a great amenity to have in this city uh it does bring people together I've met multiple elderly people that walk down uh from the senior apartments and whatnot sit there and just watch and they enjoy doing that brought my my dog up there it's therapeutic to them you know stuff like this is you don't have this everywhere white bear is a fantastic Community how many beaches do we have or I'm sorry how many dog beaches do we have that are actually on a lake that's not Mucky just just nasty you know this you can actually enjoy um it's nice to be able to walk you know if we are down there you can walk into downtown go to the coffee shop go to the square you know go wherever there's a lot of places a lot of things to do um so basically I mean I I I'm definitely for this I I get people's frustration with parking but last time I checked the streets around the lake are you can park on them I mean I haven't seen any no parking signs so I mean if we're going to start complaining about that living on wiper Avenue people talking about poop everywhere we have a sidewalk I'm constantly picking up dog poop that's not mine you know I you know I don't know what to do you know it's it is what it is you just pick it up so I mean all in all I think it's a great thing to have um been using it since its Inception um it's great to have so hopefully we can keep it around I'd appreciate it thank you thank you for your time 5980 Portland AV Heidi brigley 5980 Portland Avenue um I've been a resident of White Bear Lake area for 44 years and although I'm not using the dog beach with my latest dog because he's a reactive big dog and I wouldn't do that I used it for like 12 years on a regular basis and I walked I I'd drive over and walk Lake Avenue and during the summer when it was hot I loved being able to take him down there and and also like the last person said when he got older it was great to just let him go down there and I used the Long Leash but I will say I never agreed with that because half the people were you doing it and half weren't so I would say either one or the other and I think making dogs beond leash people won't follow it because a lot of people like to take their dog down there and throw the ball out and let them swim for it so um I guess that's all I wanted to say I'm I just wanted to come and support the people cuz there's so many people that love that dog beach and and I agree that I met so many nice people down there and I didn't see that many problems you know occasionally but not as much as I was down there I used to walk that be that length every day and there is barking but when I'd go to the beach people come and go they don't like stay there all day long with their dog usually so it's kind of a change over but thank you for listening to all of us thank you all right I may have missed a couple of the residents that signed in here so uh I'm going to be done reading names of residents I'm going to call any residents that want to speak that whose name I didn't read off any residents that would like to say something to this please first come first serve sir you raise your hand come on up I have my name on the list yeah there's a lot of names I might have fumbled it you you can blame me the podium is yours okay my name is Jean Peterson I live at uh 23437 Street lived there in the street for 48 years and again thank you for taking the time to listen to all so over and over again I guess um but I I come on a little different Tack and uh I'd like to make the case for a third option or another option and that is the area between uh Speech landing and the Mano Island Bridge and I know the Planning Commission has looked at it and knows way more about than I do and I actually called a strong dog beach Advocate to run my ideas by her and she said that uh the Planning Commission has rejected it and she gave reasons and I doubt it's necessarily your reasons but the reason she said was it was mck uh interfere with the boats the Mano island people wouldn't like it they like the cliff the current dog beach as a separation of the dogs and the people but I'm I'm a researcher by trade in my profession and uh so I decided to do a little research on my own which consisted of you know measuring the distances of the beaches walking out in the water I've used the dog beach and uh and what I came up with is well first of all it's a 60% wider area these are pretty approximate measurements cuz I stepped them off but what I got was H 104 yards for the new area compared to 65 yards for the old area and what really surprised me because I've walked on the other side of the docks at spe landing on the west side and it was Mucky and so I was totally expecting I was surprised myself I was expecting to be Mucky but I walked out about 100 ft it was hard Sandy Beach and depth very similar to the dog beach now and it didn't it started getting a thin coat of weeds at you know between 50 and 75 ft but that they would disappear in no in no time once with us it was still hard sand but what maybe the best thing about this it had a you've probably all seen it but it has this grassy gentle slope the whole distance across there unlike the dog beach where you're going down a steep stairs you're funneled through a 3-foot rock wall which congests people I mean way better for elderly people um I take care of frequently Grand dogs and uh their uh King Charles cavaliers and they're afraid to go down the steps and at my age I'm kind of afraid to carry them down the steps so I understand you can walk from the the uh bolt Landing but when water's High you'd be walking through water for part ways which elderly people don't like so I think it's better for both elderly people and small dogs to uh the other area uh another well as far as far as the the cliff being a barrier there's no walking path past there so you don't have to worry about having that barrier it's next to a park like setting which I think people would like it has parking potential I know this would be expensive but if you expanded that lot but even if you didn't do that it's still plenty easily ACC accessible from the street parking but I just think it solves a lot of problems and I know you guys know way more about than I do so there's probably things objections I'm not thinking of but as far as my research went I you know I'm thinking why aren't we even why aren't we looking at this and you know it's a win-win rather than this constant win lose that we're in now but anyway I appreciate your listening thank you thank you um did I miss someone at 4881 cook AV a resident that wanted to speak 4881 Mary um that was me um but pretty much everything has been said okay ex one so um my name is Mary Griffith and I live at oh never done this before I'm U Mary Griffith and I live at 4881 cook Avenue um we frequently walk by there um and I like his idea I think it's a really interesting idea he has but I do want to say when some people were talking about that the dogs were in their front yard but that we have to remember that's not their front yard and I don't I do know when I have walked there I don't know if it's seven Street or something there's like a white I think it might be house Heidi there's a dog that's on a leash and Barks A lot so not all the Barking comes from the dog swimming Beach area I do have to say that so and I've never seen a problem and I walk there by there frequently so that's just my part so thank you thank you any of the residents hello my name is ubia and I live on 4166 parkd drive and I'm here to State my case to not close the dog beach all dog owners that I have seen are very responsible last summer me and my dog spent a lot of time there and I think that it brings together our community and gives the dogs a lot of exercise and that is why I think we should not close the dog beach clap on that one if [Music] you thank you we good hi I'm uh Melissa gorgus I live on 22 51 Thomas Lane um I uh have lived in White Bear my whole life I'm proud to announce I just became uh a new homeowner here too so officially putting down routes um I have a long history of using that beach from childhood onwards and currently um the main point I wanted to bring up in addition to everything that's been discussed is it seems like the counterarguments to keeping the beach is relocation um I think we need to consider what that reality would actually look like what is the time and effort that would have to go into something like that um and also consider how much effort and time we've and money we've put into where it's at right now and is it worth scrapping all of that um and additionally what's the finance of relocation no matter where it is um and as the previous gentleman just brought up to I think it is important to consider if we move it where is it going to be is it going to still be in a proximity to downtown cuz that seems to be important to most people is it going to be similar um distance to that Lakeshore Drive area um what is the actual location going to bring for that type of recreation um just wanted to pose some of those questions cuz although relocation May appease some people it might not be the the most logical thing to do um and in general I'm just in favor of keeping it so thank you thank you any other residents yeah good evening my name is Devon Swanson and I live at 22417 Street and for those of you that aren't familiar with exactly where that's at it is between 61 and the lake we are one block in across street is cook we're right on the corner and as somebody else expressed earlier made the comparison of building a house next to a farm and complain about the farm I had an experience with our assistant city manager four years ago where I brought a safety concern to his attention and asked for Solutions and he told me that what did I expect I moved to a destination neighborhood and this was a safety concern that impacts my young daughter and so while I don't know what it's like to live on Lake Avenue I know what it's like to take advantage of Lake Avenue and all the things that it offers including the dog park which we love and so I'm in favor of keeping the dog park but those complaints that people have about living across the street from the dog park we have those too we have dock barking dogs we have people that walk through our yard we discussed trying to put a fence up to create some more separation but we can't because of the easement like we have those issues as well and because we're so close to downtown we can't park on our street during Market Fest and it's okay it's the price we pay for living where we do and so I'd like the city council to consider keeping the dog park for the rest of us who really enjoy it and also deal with some of the nuances of living in downtown white bear thank you for your time thank you all right any other residents yes please uh John Maguire 4639 Lake um former business owner for 25 years downtown I just want to stress uh there wasn't a breakfast lunch or dinner we didn't have one to six dogs on our patio um some came in wet telling me that there was a visit to the lake somewhere uh I think it's important for this dog beach for the downtown area area um to attract people with or without pets um that's it thank you thank you other city of White Bear Lake residents that want to speak to this issue okay we're going to move on to any Property Owners not necessarily residents but property owners in White Bear is his owners all right well we we managed to make it through in a timely fashion so let's move on to non-residents I have a couple on my list that I'll start with and then we can go with folks that are not on the list so first nonresident on the list is Steve rener 5328 28 are you found chip orip very good it said wbl I wasn't sure uh so I'm Steve rener at 5328 be Lane um which is somewhat between bald eagle Lake and tamarak nature center um so I have two black labs and IO a lot of I'm in favor of the dog park uh just so I share a little bit with my life with my two dogs who will chase a tennis ball for hours and um that's what they do that's what a lot of dogs do um we have access to a number of other areas where we take our dogs but uh as we know in the Twin Cities I City Slicker I guess 99% of the place in the Twin Cities requires a dog to be on a leash they can't be a dog off a leash I can't walk around a u a neighborhood I can't go to my my school field when no one's there and Chase have them chase the ball I can't go to Tam Nature Center um we can walk in some Woods that we got come summertime those are infested with ticks that both I and the dog get uh so come a hot summer day my only option or one of my options is the the water park the dog park there it is a gift absolute gift for my dogs uh the dogs will chase that tennis ball for an hour um and there it's also their it's basically their uh social club they're there having a lot of fun with a lot of other dogs and that's my life so I'm in favor of the dog park thank you thank [Music] you oh boy 708 someone from Township David David from Township those are the only Clues I have David M from Township how about that David M okay all right we'll move on uh oh sorry take your time come on up yeah if you could since I didn't get much of your name and none of your address please state your name and address for the record my name is Dave McMullen uh my mother grew up in bald eagle so we've got the history here uh we lived in the white beer area virtually all my life I think originally they moved here when I was about 5 years old so I certainly got the history here lived on Lake Avenue lived down in moname lived on the lake so I've got a lot of time and effort in here uh been ice skating from one end to the other and enjoyed the lake and now as an adult and I've had golden retrievers for a number of years it's great to give them a chance to get out and be in the water but I also have to be uh an honest uh citizen supporting the needs of the area so I make sure I pick up after my dog and and keep her away from doing things she shouldn't do or whatever but this is her opportunity to get out and do something it seems to me like a lake like white bear that's got at least I think it's in the area of 12 miles of Shoreline that to not be able to take a couple hundred yards or 100 feet and make it a dog beach and I think there's only what three dog beaches on on the entire White Bear Lake I think there's one in the Monami and so forth there so maybe a total of three out of 12 plus miles going around the lake I I don't think it's asking too much to keep that all the people I see go down there we pick up after the dogs uh you know we try to keep it clean I talk to people that don't keep their dogss on leav and remind them that they're supposed to but I'm not going to start a fight over it either so U I think it's just just good that we share and share alike everybody's got lots around the lake and you can enjoy it but you know to take a few hundred feet in the lake this big and not give an opportunity to have a spot to take your dog it's a little ridiculous you know I think we can certainly afford to give that much to a few dogs once in a while and they don't do it 365 days a year primarily the summer spring fall seasons and that's about it so thank you for your time thank you thanks all right would anyone else like to speak to this issue please come on up hello my name is Caitlyn Isaac I'm at 1983 Stillwater Street in wiper Township we just moved here my husband and I with our two dogs um although we're new to the community um I'm sorry although we're new residents to the community we've been here for over 30 years both of us growing up in Mame and wiper Lake um wiper lake has been so important to us we've had dogs all of our lives and we've visited beaches that maybe we weren't supposed to be out with our dogs cuz we didn't know about the designated dog beaches this has been such a gift for us to meet Community I recognize so many people here I couldn't tell you their names but I do know their dogs names sorry um that just gives it such a sense of of community and how important this is to us we need somewhere to go and we need somewhere that is designated for us we don't belong at the other public beaches with kids and picnics and everything else I mean my dog is off leash he's a great listener and but also I I think we need somewhere specific to go um also a personal touch is one of our dogs is a three-legged dog he doesn't walk well we can go maybe a quarter of a mile otherwise he rides in a wagon but he's a stunner swimmer and we really need the water so I appreciate the opportunity to speak and to be heard and I also want to recognize the recognize the parkboard for their beautification and Improvement on the functionality in the recent years it's so pretty so thank you appreciate it thank you anyone else please hi there I've never done this before so I'm kind of nervous um my name is Betsy langosi I live in Delwood um I'm at 19 Meadow Lane in Delwood uh but before that I was in White Bear and I fell in love with white bear I lived in California I came here for 2 weeks and I said I never want to leave and I didn't I bought a house um by the Cup and Cone and I basically never left um I am just here in support of the dog beach I think it is absolutely a magical place um everybody's brought up great points just one extra point I haven't heard brought up is um in the Land of 10,000 lakes it's really important that our dogs are not anxious around water and this gives us the opportunity to make sure that we just have a stronger presence around water with our beloved pets which keeps them safe us safe and our neighbors safe um so I'm just I'm disappointed in some of the the not in my backyard isms I'm hearing um I I love the sentiments around this community that we share it and I um I hope that you vote to keep it open really thank you so much for taking the time to hear us all tonight bye thank you okay anybody else going once going twice all right I'm going to close the public hearing um thank you everyone who gave testimony either for or against um as the last gal said she was a little nervous coming up here it's not easy to get up and talk in front of all these people so I do appreciate uh those that did speak I also want to say thank you to the many many many people who called and emailed myself and others on the council on both sides um who weighed in on this issue um before we get into kind of my thoughts and then I kick it to the council for their thoughts um I do want to recognize how proud I am of um many community members just weighing in on this and engaging in a pretty good civil discourse on this um participation in any form of government or on issues is kind of waning and at least in White Bear Lake when it comes to a dog beach people get engaged so that's been impressive to see the the good arguments on both sides all right I'm going to kick things off with my comments um I will note again there's no action being taken the the point of tonight was to get public feedback and then the council will give some direction to staff depending on which way things are going to bring a resolution at the uh first meeting in March um but I suspect March 11th um but I suspect others on the council at least want to share some thoughts even if they're undecided at this point so I will kick things off and share my uh opinions the question before the council right now is not whether the dog beach is popular it clearly is um it's not whether there are a lot of people that derive enjoyment from this amenity and it is an amen amenity I know folks like bringing their dogs there but like any amenity we prioritize things and and decide um what we want what we want to deal with what issues we want to uh work through um so no one's questioning that there are lots and lots of dog lovers out there that that enjoy this this amenity and who could blame them it's it's it's Unique I there's nothing else like it in the Metro there's reasons for that there's a reason why every other dog beach is a dog park let alone near water is fully fenced in um and it's not whether many um or even most of the dog users are responsible and respectful to the neighborhood U maybe they are maybe most people do follow the rules and maybe it is an extreme minority but those folks that are these are very real issues that we have to address the question I see before the council is whether a large concentration of dogs is appropriate for this residential area in a heavily used park with very limited space and lots of other uses the canoe racks the skids boat traffic picnickers um those folks so the question becomes how do we go about answering that question is this appropriate for this space and I'll speak only for myself council members on the council might disagree but here's how I approach this I think it would be inappropriate to take a snapshot in time right now in 2005 and say the dog Park's really popular all these people love it we got to keep it open we have to look at the history leading up to this so Mr Copy did a good job kind of laying the bullet points but to me the thinking of Prior councils Prior Park commissions is really really important so I want to walk through that because it helps me understand and phrase frame up this issue so in August of 2007 the council approved matasa Park between the boat ramp and 7th Street as a designated area for dogs to be off leash quote when under the active supervision of the person owning harboring or keeping the dog obedient to that person's command so the expectation some 18 years ago was always contemplated that if we're going to have this dog beach the number one priority is that they are under the constant control and command of their owner I think in 2007 the council recognized that unruly dogs are bad without even taking the position of whether there have been unruly dogs here we can all agree that that is something that we need to keep a close eye on so in the early years of this it sounds like the the usage of the dog park was pretty low and therefore we didn't have many issues and then you fast forward a few years and we have an increase in the usage of the dog park and with that came an increase in in complaints and that's when the issues began to arise and that was somewhere around 2016 so after repeated concerns over the continued use of that portion of matasa Park as a designated dog area on February 28th 2017 the council took up the issue and I went back this afternoon and rewatched that meeting I say rewatched because I watched it in person in uh 2017 from the chair third row back as a member of the the park commission and I spoke at that that council meeting on behalf of the park commission who at that time voted unanimously in the other direction saying we've identified all these issues and these issues are insurmountable and we'd like to close the dog beach so that the the the park commission has flipped Everyone's entitled to their opinion but that was my perspective eight years ago um when I like the park commission members that that put all the time in I too and others on the park commission went and spent a lot of time observing my observations I think were a little different than what folks have observed maybe things have changed maybe not but we eight years ago went back and and went through that exercise and I think what's important is and what was important to me was to go back and look at I think there were a couple people on the dis today that were still on the council back then and and look at what their analysis was and how they approached um working through these issues as a side note because it's important to mention at that same time in 2017 something else very important was happening the lake levels finally after many many years had returned to normal levels and I dug up an article uh from the whitee Press where the headline was wiper lake levels hit average elevation for the first time in 11 years and that was May 24th 2017 so how do we translate that that headline lake levels of return the translation is once that was what was once dry lake bed where these dogs recreated and was much further away from the homes was now water the lake level came up excuse me the lake level came up and the water was closer to the Shoreline right now um and that resulted in all of this dog activity being closer than it once was and historically was it was also that same year that the Seventh Street swim do was reinduced re reintroduced after many many years of being absent because of low lake levels it was also at the same time that boat activity had begun to return so in 2017 that was a very important time and the park commission at that time and the council grappled with it that we have some issues and we need to identify how do we work through this so it was in 2017 that the council ultimately adopted the agenda that Mr Copy alluded to where I think the council cautiously my word not what was said at the council but the council cautiously approved continuing the dog area but imposed several conditions and it was there that the leash 30ft leash requirement was imposed it was there that the council said we want to have clearly defined dog area signage and most notably and I think this has either been misconstrued or just not talked about in 2017 the Council made it very clear that this would be an experiment for one year the council in 2017 those that were on can correct me if I'm wrong we're on in 2017 had a lot of concern about this and that's why they called it an experiment and said we're going to implement these these conditions and see how it goes and revisit it um I think one of the one of the uh council members said we'll we'll see if it works and if not we'll reevaluate it and I will say that several members on the council in 2017 including the mayor at that time made it abundantly clear that they wanted to hear from residents regarding bad conduct and complaints anyone's free it's on the city's website go back and look at it I say that because I want to spel what not many but a few have said that this is an issue of one or two or maybe three people that's not what my email inbox reflects that's what my what not what my call sheet reflects it's a lot more than a few people um it's many many people living in the area that oppose the dog beach for a lot of good and valid reasons and their repeated complaints to the city is a reaction and being done directly in response to what the 2017 Council and mayor sat up here and told residents to do throughout the duration of this experiment so in 2017 we have this experiment we fast forward a couple years 2020 what happened then Co what happened during Co you saw a spike an absolute spike in dog ownership rates because everybody was home and suddenly had the time uh to take care of a dog you also saw a spike in all all things outdoor activities you couldn't buy a boat and if you could find one it was a fortune Lake activity was was booming so we saw a huge surge of dogs and other activity at that Park um good problem to have it's nice um that people are using our Parks but that's that really has never has never gone away so these problems persisted and in 2023 the council again took up this issue and that was under my leadership once I had become mayor in 2022 and I wanted to revisit the issue because I was still getting complaints not from one or two but from many um I also observe things firsthand uh uh I have spent a lot of time uh in recent years and certainly this summer just observing with no preconceived notions um not trying to find good or bad conduct just observing uh and I I I can't uh agree with what many have said when they said I've never seen any bad conduct I've never really had an issue I mean I've spent a decent amount of time I haven't spent days on end but in the you know handful of hours I spent there uh I've saw dogs defecating in the water on multiple occasions dogs not on leash dogs running a muck so it's not a question of are there issues we can debate what the level and frequency is but there are there are issues that we need to deal with so in 2023 the council took up this issue again and ultimately decided again to keep this as a designated area for dogs but attempted again to improve the conditions in hopes of alleviating some of these ongoing concerns and they imple we implemented putting a fence in the improved buoys that Mr Copy talked about uh improved signage the pet waste stations as an anecdotal note early on when we put that pet was station up we couldn't seem to keep the inventory of bags in stock because it only takes one person to just take all the bags and it's those are the things that a city has to deal with when you're with the best of intentions trying to trying to provide these uh amenities so we implemented these these uh several things um that I'll be honest I was I was skeptical back in 2023 but you know what there are a lot of people that that um like the dog beach and want to continue to use it and there was some hope that the fence might improve things so the same nearly Deca decade old issues continued the excessive barking the dog waste the uncontrol dogs off leash um and this at the same time that again the bolt launch and canoe racks and skids and more buoys we're seeing you know record participation people are using the park um so I feel like where we're at right now something's got to give we've got a very popular Park is it picnickers is it pedestrians is it boers is it canoers is it Sailors is it dogs dog owners um so against this historical background I go back to uh what my original question was is this large concentration of dogs appropri rate for this residential area in a heavily used park with limited space and with many other uses including boat traffic and swimmers and here's the answer that I've come come to in 2007 yes I think it's appropriate in 2017 probably not it's probably no longer appropriate but we're probably not at critical mass just yet in 2023 yes I think I think it we' reached a point in 2023 that it was time to close the dog park and I I said as much while recognizing that it was a a valued amenity today in 2025 um I absolutely think the the space is no longer appropriate for a dog park and as someone who has tracked this from 2017 both complaints as a park commission member and then in 2023 and then now in 2025 I will say um more and more vocal people that never spoke up have had candid conversations and emails exchanges with me um that have expressed some very real concerns so the numbers that have opposed this have really really gone up over the last few months really starting last fall when the council met with the park commission and really grappled with this so I do support closing the dog beach and it's not because dog beaches are bad quite the contrary they're obviously a great asset and it's not because I want to deny you folks the enjoyment that that came out here and testified in support of it I support closing the dog beach because what began in 20 07 as a nice idea with the intent that it would be uh see modest Neighborhood use appropriate to that small space has now simply outgrown itself it has become a metrowide destination and this very limited area that would be busy even if we didn't have a dog beach simply cannot sustain the current amount of activities uh activity that it receives so it is with regret um because I wish we could accommodate everyone's wishes everyone's will but we just simply don't have the space so like I said in 2017 like I said in 2023 and what I'll say today um I recognize that this is a tough issue that we have to Grapple with um and it's going to disappoint a lot of people but I give a great deal of deference to um the homeowners that have to deal with it 24/7 not just a couple hours on a Saturday um not just a few hours during the week um and I put a lot of difference in in what they have to say and that's ultimately where I've come down so I I would I would hope that the council um would make the difficult decision uh in the interest of alleviate alleviating some of these very real concerns and ultimately close the dog beach so those are my thoughts and with that I will I will I will turn it over to the council to discuss what they would like to do and what they would like to direct direct staff to do for our March 11 meeting Council everybody reserving comment for a couple weeks well oh you don't have to talk go ahead I think thank you Mr Mayor I I I think we should talk a little I think it's in it's a way of showing where we're listening for one thing and so appreciate all the comments um pro and con you you I tend to agree with some of your comments I mean that's it's a balanced question um a great amenity that is really popular I mean we can stipulate that people love the dog beach we heard a lot of stories tonight got a lot of emails on that people love this amenity um you know it's Unique in the state it's Unique in the state for a reason because it's super hard to do it's super hard to do what a beach finding Lakeshore property that's available public and then being able to manage dogs coming and going people coming and going you know we don't have a parking lot that's think one of the biggest problems we don't have a parking lot buffer between a neighborhood and and an amenity I think what you said at the end is a difference to homeowners I think that's what what kind of I keep coming back to um the experience of a user saying I've been there a lot I've never see a problem that's a valid thing to say but it's but it's equally valid for for people in the neighborhood to say there are problems and they're not lying they're not making it up um so that's the balance how do you balance a really popular public amenity with the property rights in the neighborhood the people that live there and have to put up with it every day um and it just doesn't seem to be going away like I said I I have voted I think in that history that you talked about Mr I've voted to close it I think the first statment came up I voted to keep it open the last time with the new fencing you know spend a little money I think if you go back listen to my speech I said I'll do it one more time I'll give it one more time I'll vote Yes uh and let's see if this works and here we are again so I'm leaning no I'm I I'd like to hear what other people have to say and I guess my last question is you know uh Jee has sent a great email and spoke tonight about an alternative location have we exhausted alternative locations in the city of Wier Lake if we think this is a great amenity and I I just wonder if we've really given that the effort because we've always sort of just said well let's just keep it open so maybe we haven't exhausted that effort to find another place if we do in fact vote to close this location would that spur more activity on seriously looking at another location not you start looking at another location you're going to start spending money and we've this group recently has had trouble spending money and I'm okay with that but we you know we said no to Electric charging vehicle stations and because it was too much money among other reasons we recently not in a vote I don't think but have been kind of cautious about extending docks and getting public docks over uh uh over by talles and over by our our Marina cuz again expensive you know thousands of dollars and we kind of said we talked ourselves out of that expenditure at least at this moment so if we're going to come in and say all right is this amenity something we're going to spend thousands of dollars on uh I don't know if this group can do it or not I I don't know where I'd come down on that maybe I would because of the popularity of this amenity so I guess that's one of my questions and maybe we don't answer that tonight maybe we answer that next week or or in two weeks when we come back I guess it's not quite too maybe longer than that but have we exha at other locations I know we've talked about some of these other spots I don't know that the moving down a little bit I guess South uh towards the bridge is a great idea I think all the same problems might still be there I don't know that you you've talked I think you've answered this question in the past about the the the lake shore the the the beach or the murkiness of it um and they say well we just add a parking lot well that that sounds really hard I don't even know the details I'm not sure we even own the land to do a parking lot you know how that that's not as easy as you think it's super expensive and uh so that's that's really hard but you know north north of uh you know south of the Ramsey County Beach or some land that we own have we exhausted that piece have we have we exhausted Lakewood Hills you know other locations so maybe that's a conversation we can have again because we we've tried that I know we've tried that if my my memory is nothing ever nothing else Works we've kind of gone down this path I know you guys have done it from the city I think the park board has done it too um but maybe we got to revisit that if we in fact if we in fact close this one maybe that really makes it more an effort so that's where I'm at tonight would anyone else like to weigh in well I'll just follow up on council member Walsh Walsh's comments I'm not opposed to dog beaches so I love the idea idea idea of doing that and as as much as I've been like council member Walsh pretty stingy about wanting to spend money on anything that's not police fire roads all that stuff I would I I mean we're not talking about hundreds of thousand of doll here it's it's certainly an important enough amenity I I would be willing to spend some money if we can find the appropriate location I will say moving on the other side of the boat launch does nothing in my opinion it's the same barking the same dog poop issues the same unruly owners it's it's not about which side of the dog of the boat launch it's on it's where we put a dog beach in proximity to lots of other alternative uses and homes um and if we can find that place great I'm all for it if we can find a place that isn't a Mucky lake bed cuz I understand dog owners when they say we don't want to that's why we like this area well maybe we can find that place where it is nice and Sandy or we can create that you know let's have those studies for for what it what alternatives are and what it would cost I have the appetite to do that I just don't want it in that very very choked off confined area um because I think we it just doesn't work anymore so um for what that's worth for if the council ultimately does shut it down um I think we should make a conscious effort to look for Alternatives is everyone else reserving comment for a couple weeks council member West so I've lived in Whitebear Lake for 32 years I live on the corner of Whitebear Avenue in County Road F if you know that area at all you know it's loud you know it's busy and it has only gotten worse since I have lived there um I built my house there which means that I had no neighbors to the north I had one neighbor to the South and I had a huge green area which is now like 12 houses so it's when I think about this issue and the growing like lots of people I think about kind of the people that were talking about the community and the sharing and the importance of that I just think we need to be better at getting along and being okay with things that are happening with other people because we are part of a community and the other thing is like as as a homeowner on a busy street I have to pay attention to well maybe either I have to put up with the noise or I have to do something different with my property or like I made sure that my kids weren't going out the front lawn on the front lawn because I wanted to make sure that they were safe and not in traffic but we put a big fence in our backyard to make sure that um we had some private space and so I'm just like I'm curious about what the neighbors are doing to keep their personal space safe what I'm hearing is well like this is that problem and that problem and we should be able to kind of do what we want and that's a really it's just a really hard place for me to be because like I said my own personal experience is yep lots of things are different and it's a community growth issue I knew it I figured it was going to happen it did and you know what I'm okay with it that's kind of where I'm standing right now okay council member edberg thank you Mr Mayor so there are a number of things that I have thought about and that I weigh there are some things that I've taken off my list both through the communications uh to this point and there's a couple things that I'm still unclear about in my own mind I am not seeing this as a public safety issue I've asked for the data on dog bite reports on unruly and malicious um violent dogs um I'm not seeing data that supports a contention that this is a primary issue at this location I'm also not swayed by the pooping in the lake issue if you really want to think about it I would like you to I know you may not want to think about it um we'll start with Walley bass crappy Sunfish carp and all thing other things that defecate in the lake and if that turns you off well that's one issue I think a bigger issue is bird flu and the app the presence of dogs that prevent and reduce the uh use of this space for uh Ducks geese other birds that are carrying what is potentially a very very serious human disease we have demonstrated already transmission from avens birds to mammals and to humans so this is um to me uh the health issues of dog poop on the beach is not a public health issue are the we've been testing for eoli we've been testing for the major uh diseases that we should be thinking about this location doesn't have those issues other places have them it tends to be linked to um to birds so I'm not seeing a public safety issue engaged there have been some letters from individuals who have said that the park is diminishing the value of their property that their property home values have declined I'm not sure that the data exists to support that either evidenced In This Very Chambers two and a half months ago at our public uh truth and Taxation hearings the um of all the places in the city places where property values are going up is primarily in Lakeshore areas and it's being driven by other things it's not the the Beach if somebody wanted to make the case that my property values are going up but they're not going up as fast as other places in our B greater neighborhood if you got the data I'll listen I'm convincible but I don't think that that CA that that case can be made that wasn't stated here was stated in some of the other letters and Communications that we received I am not particularly swayed by the issues related to it's good for the downtown businesses we walk our dogs we take them downtown fine that's okay I I recognize that that's a benefit it doesn't affect my thinking about the value of the park based on the Vitality of downtown what does come to me are a couple of questions um I am still trying to understand why the EXP why and this is we don't have quantitative data it's all it's it's anecdotal and personal but I'm looking at the tremendous disparity of experience that I'm hearing we've had two petitions frankly the my petition is bigger than your petition argument doesn't hold much water with me either it's like it's popular but that's not a deciding factor the um the idea that um there are undo unreasonable impositions that are being being made to Residents is one that I'm trying to balance and I'm having a difficult time figuring out so why is one set of folks saying one thing and why is an entirely other including 100 visits from our own Park commission coming back to us with different observations now they're it probably could just be human beings or being human beings okay that that's it's possible um but the stories are so so different that causing me to scratch my head and I don't know what to do with that the place the the thing that I'm thinking about and the thing that I am pondering between now and whenever we take action is is the city imposing an undue unreasonable imposition on nearby neighborhoods and owners I would note that in that the neighbors in that area are not of one mind there are those who signed one petition saying hey this is a pain in the the backsides close it okay I get that there are another not inconsequential set of numbers who said hey we live in the neighborhood the things that we experience are just part of being in the neighborhood and we're okay with that so it's not like it's a uni a uniform rejection by one set of neighbors against another it's it's it's all over the place and maybe that too is just human beings being human beings we come from different places with different priorities different CHS of tolerances whatever and uh so we wrestle with that I thought about and I'm still open to hearing more about so what is unique about about this location I was talking to one folk one person down my word and said you know what I have a park in my backyard there's a basketball court it's used constantly it's it's frequently usedom all day is that an undo imposition on that neighborhood because the park is used for its intended purpose I I don't know I think about that I think about neighbors some of whom are into outdoor automobile refinishing and and Auto Work power tools buzzing cutting blah blah blah okay is that my cup of tea yeah maybe not but you know it's their property and they're doing something that's important to them and that's part of Live and Let Live I think about other folks who have wood workking in their garages hearing the saws the drills all that kind of stuff okay fine Live and Let Live I think about parking and traffic and that's all over the sea now I don't live in the First Ward second ward so I don't know the specifics of what it's like to have traffic on Lake Avenue but the folks in my community in my ward that talk to me about traffic speed Etc we've got it there too how do we deal with that and how do we live with lots of cars even if they're traveling the speed limit how do we deal with the sound the noise the interruptions that come with traffic parking Etc so we've got um and there's a whole bunch of other sound and noise issues whether it's lawnmowers or cars going by with loud radios or loud stereo systems booming we've got all of that and it's all over the city it's not just on Lake Avenue across from the dog park how do we think about that and what becomes undue that's what I need to wrestle with I'm open to looking at a third Al a that third alternative a different location I'm not inclined to close the beach and then go looking I want to have that in place as part of the resolution before I would vote to close the year Beach but that's just me and others can take a different position and I'm I honor that but I would be inclined to join in the idea of what else might be possible does it create just as many issues but in a different location okay that's a distinct perhaps not unlikely alter or consequence as well so those are the things that I'm thinking about else have any comments on this this time cember angrand first off what kind of basketballs are you dribbling I'm not the one that's doing the dribbling sir all right first all I'm going to I I would vote for to keep it open um and I'm not going to go through every's what I've already said however if we do vote to close the dog beach I also want to proposal to close the seventh street beach also because of screaming kids and I'm guessing they peed in the water a lot more times than the dogs so if we close the dog beach I want to proposal to close 7 Street beach also they can go down to West Park or Ramsey Beach and swim okay anyone else have any thoughts follow up comments and questions um BR bir I like your discussion about you know woodworking people working on cars and I'm not necessarily offer a Counterpoint but you said you'd like to understand further so I have a thought on that Here's my thought and why I see this is different if you have a automotive Enthusiast that likes to work on cars in his garage or a woodworker who likes to work on building you know things out of wood and running saws we have ordinances regarding noise and sound for that discret one person or his family doing something we wouldn't for example allow that person to uh violate the residential zoning code and say I'm going to start an auto body shop in his garage or woodworking in fact we don't allow people to run those businesses precisely because the volume of the noise the volume of the activity isn't appropriate for that area so that's how I think about this as you draw analogies to other things that bother other residents um I see this is different and and the city does have some responsibility because dog parks are pretty unique dog parks next to water are really unique and dog parks that now tonight we're entertaining removing the leash requirement is is literally unheard of um and maybe that would work in a rural area but we're talking about a residential area so we're inviting a higher number of participant so it's not just one person and that's how I see the distinction with your analogy of you know what's what's different between between this and other people I also look at U one of the people that testified said something about U if you live next to a school or something you're going to hear hear noise or someone said something that effect I said this in 2023 and I'll say it again because I think it's relevant there's a concept in the legal World Tor law called coming to the nuisance meaning if you move next to a dog beach you don't really get to complain because you knew what you're were getting yourself into um and I don't mean to make this a question about who got there first but that is not historically uh used for dogs that was never our primary focus the dog portion of using matasa to allow dogs to recreate is is pretty darn new um 18 years or so so for many many decades before that um the people that lived there before it was a dog beach didn't sent to that the city said we're going to let people recreate their dogs there and now we're still dealing with it and rightfully so people can complain so that's a big distinction that I see um and I get it people claim that they've moved here in part because there a dog beach okay there's two sides to that but the people that are making these complaints didn't didn't consent to this didn't sign up for they knew they were they knew they were living at or near a public park and if they were complaining about uh uh the sail rigging clanging in the middle of the night I'd say go pound sand you you move next to the lake but we're not talking about that we're talking about dogs barking dogs defecating dogs that we have a bunch of dog lovers here I get it but there's a whole lot of people that aren't dog lovers or are afraid of dogs there was a gentleman that testified that he said he had to hold a kid down or a dog down because it was running in his yard so then I asked the question how many instances of that is enough to say you know what we get that it's a beloved Park but we just can't take that risk or that's too high a price to pay how many dogs have to be how many hot dogs have to be eaten off of someone's plate or hamburgers um someone laughed when when someone testified and said a dog literally took something off my plate or jumped on my lap and the the insinuation I got from the the crowd laughing was that somehow that's cute or it's not a big deal that's someone's private property and they have the right to freely enjoy their private property without being bothered um by dogs and and the people that are testifying here today I'm going to assume are are good dog owners that aren't these people I'm not talking to you and and if I had a silver bullet to say how how can I just let you people come to the dog park um and not the Bad actors I'm all ears let's let's do it but those few bad actors can spoil the bunch and we have these very real issues so that's why yeah I thought about this in 2017 I thought about it same in 2023 and I think about it today it's an unsolvable issue we we'll always talk in circles and say it's popular we'll always talk in circles and say so many people enjoy it and it's such a great amenity and asset to the community because it is but there is very real baggage that comes with it and after eight years of going back and forth um and after spending lots and lots of time addressing this we're never going to be able to solve the barking and the Bad actors through fencing through signage through waste bags and I've just come to the conclusion that um it's time we just part ways in move on um this I I feel for the dog owners it it it's seen as a takeaway because it is um but what was a good idea 18 years ago has just become a victim of its own success and now it's just too populated that it's just it can't be sustained so any other thoughts or council member edberg if you want to respond I don't know if that helped you think it through a little bit but maybe I left you with some mayor you always cause me to think and that's just fine that's the job that you're supposed to do and my job to listen so I'll just Ponder I appreciate that any other thoughts comments council member West I my only um I I appreciate all of the thoughtfulness um I just I'm I'm wondering at what point is it the responsibility of the homeowners to do something else with their property to help with some of that like I put up a fence in my backyard I hang out in my backyard so that people who are coming by with their dogs aren't interfering or aren't like you know if I were in my front yard and there was a dog coming by then they're not getting you know involved with my dogs like it it's just something that I do because I realize that it is a possibility that's my question is like where is that responsibility so I just want to I just want to stay with that for a second so it's incumbent upon the homeowner a homeowner whether they own a dog or not whether they love dogs or hate dogs to say well I need to build a a fence perhaps a moat to stop dogs from coming in my yard that should be the burden of the the resident because they happen to live in a house that some years later the city decided to allow a high rate of dogs just that just doesn't make any sense and but and then also on that note it is important to remember that um and Mr Copy can correct me if I'm wrong I don't think you can just put a six foot privacy fence up along the shoreline going to the lake bed I mean there's just there's no solution to that which is why from a public policy standpoint when cities put dog parks in the city fences the dog park in they don't say here's a field all the homeowners around put fences around your properties so that I mean I understand your point but no the burden should never be on the homeowner to guard against public amenities of the city um I don't follow that line of logic and I think the burden would be on the city to make those accommodations or if they can't properly protect the homeowners around from any interference then the amenity shouldn't exist which is where we're at in my opinion council member Hughes uh Mr Mayor um you can't put a fence down along the Waterfront within I want to say it's 10 yard of the water um inside the wed so they couldn't put a fence down there anyway like we couldn't put the fence you know that's why the that's why the fence that's down there goes out but we were given permission from that from the um Conservation District so they can't put a they can't put a privacy fence in between in between Lots they'd have to I don't even know whether or not the conservation would give permission but they don't I thought that you had a fence around your yard is that not I have a yes okay so right I live across and I live at Cross Lake Avenue and I do um we're talking about homeowners that actually own own the Waterfront down along the shoreline um right right adjacent to the park so there's the wi dock in that picture there's the wi dock yeah so and yeah and that's and that's part of what we're talking about is it's not it's not my yard that's affected you know it's not it's these guys are out in their own yards with no fences down there with the picnic literally because you you know there's no house down there um and um you know you can't you can't stop the you can't you can't stop them from coming over and I would say that's the problem with the you know as you march along in the marina as well is that without without actual fencing along all sides of the dog area then you do continue to have dogs on the Y dock um which does make it hard for the people that we make pay to utilize that dock um and then they you know they're on the skids where the Rob boats are and where those dingies are and and then down on the launch so without off fence there's no um and we can't put fences down there either other than the one we've got I don't know how many more we could get with permission but that's the along that along that Waterfront area the Watershed doesn't allow it well In fairness I mean I understand your point with that but even if you could we've heard multiple people say that that there is barking maybe it's not all day every day but it's enough that it it interferes with the enjoyment so what's next well you if you're going to put a privacy fence up why don't you spend I don't know 40 50 60 70 grand to do all the windows in your house with triple pain to soundproof it I mean the burden just isn't on the homeowners in my opinion that's a slippery slope of saying well it's it's your problem um that's that's not where the burden that's not where the burden lies to me even if you could which at least with the fence you're very limited any other thoughts okay do we have a uh a direction what we would like staff to to come back with if anything um the status quo right now is the Park is open the conditions from last year apply if we do nothing which we're free to do uh the the part dog Peach stays open so well okay Mr Mayor then then for the sake of discussion on March 11th the the vehicle should probably be a motion an amend a resolution to close the beach because that would be the affirmative action if it's a no vote then that's a status quo if it's a yes vote we got to we got to do other things but otherwise we don't need to bring it on the agenda if if if like you say status quo is that the beach is open so I think the right thing to do is to bring that resolution debate it and then make a decision mayor Mr Crawford thank you mayor council member Walsh um another option uh in addition to what you've stated is the recommendations of the park commission um so it's either do nothing re potentially Implement recommendations from the park commission which technically is what's in front of you or was part of the discussion or a resolution closing so there could be you know another option then could we staff could bring both I think we could bring two resolutions then we should have them both ready we could uh we could pick which one to work on First and so I think uh unless anyone has any strong objections I think let's come back at the March 11th meeting with the resolution that says we uh will adopt will continue the operation of the dog beach and adopt the recommendations of Staff as we've done in 2023 and another resolution that says uh we're going to close the the dog beach and if it's not the will of the council to close the dog beach uh it just simply will fail for lack of a motion or a second and it won't even be voted on but we'll have to we have two items before us Mr Mayor can we just get I know we' done this before but do we have any should we do it I don't think we should do tonight or maybe wait for March 11th but some staff work on alternative locations and I don't want them to work I don't I don't want to add things to the list of things for staff to do I think we've already gone down a lot of these roads maybe we need to we need to go through them again if it's not too much you know research I don't want anybody to go out into soil samples on beaches you know but uh but if we could just have that conversation again for the public and for me frankly can we just talk through some of these ideas I think we've talked them down but maybe we got to do it one more time or if that's not too much work yeah I mean I'll defer the city staff I think we've done a lot of work on that so to the extent we can pull it together in a memo and U you know talk through what's what's feasible even if it's we've explored it and there's just no good other no other good options let's take another let's take another look at that um M Crawford you look like you have something to say thank you uh mayor uh we have looked at uh moving it south in mosa I'm not sure that we have really exhausted all of the research along the lake um and that probably it would be up to the city council and the mayor and the direction that you wanted to give but perhaps that would require some intense public engagement um if we were going to kind of open a new park in another location that uh would take well beyond 2 weeks but that is Direction you know that that we could get but I I think the only one that we really have looked at um or the park commission has looked at um in this area on the lake at least is Mosa Park we've looked at Lakewood Hills we've looked at some other kind of storm water area ponds that just really won't work um but we have not looked at other public other city-owned locations along the lake aside of outside of mosa you know I would just suggest that if it's if it's the will of the council that there's a desire to close the do be but you're not willing to do it unless there's an alternative that's a good reason to do that I would I would propose that what's before the council is after all the back and forth and debates and public hearing we need we need to make a decision this goes along with what you had said M Mr edberg do we have an issue that necessitates needing to close down this this dog part that's a discreet issue yes or no and then separate from that is do we still have a desire to have a dog park somewhere and if so if the answer is yes then let's explore it but to me I I don't see I don't see those two is linked there is either a public policy reason to raise the concerns and complaints after 8 years to the level to say we're going to stop it and that's that's the final decision or not but the simply saying well they a problem they're enough of a problem to move it but not really to shut it down that I don't like that middle ground approach and people can can push back and say they disagree but I don't see those two as linked I have the appetite to find Alternatives I think we should but that has no bearing on whether or not these issues rise to a level to say this park in its current form and that current location needs to cease existing as a dog beach anyone disagree or is there decision would be decision to close this location predicated on having an immediate and readily available alternative council member edbert yeah I'm one um I'm not ready to close a beach without knowing whether we have an alternative that's actionable and the time frame and and budget to implement that option so I'm not that's not usable to me but takes three votes to to make a decision um the going back to the procedural question for our next meeting there are multiple options in front of us I think the the core one is should it be should dog beach be closed that's and we should have a motion in a second and if there is we debate vote up or down make make that decision first I'm not really keen on taking up the commission's recommendations at this point I'd rather focus my energies and thoughts on what's the right approach and then we can have take those others I'm um yeah there's there's several I counted at least four and there might be my brain says there's even five different approaches and I'm not sure we can wisely sequence all of those so my inclination is to say let's take it one by one and uh it may take more than one meeting to get issues two three four and five if if we have to go there if the vote is to close well then that we can do that on the 13th or on the 11th rather so that that I'm just saying I'm not seeing the wisdom of multiple resolutions being prepared in advance because I don't know that we know where that conversation's going uh no it's a fair point and our our next meeting is an artificial timeline set by us we had this early enough so that we know there'd be probably going to be some ice on for a little little while longer and ab Buick uh in the like um so we have some time to maneuver if if if Council wants more I mean to me the the the pressing timeline is when the dog beach will actually be when when it's ice out and the dogs will actually use the shoreline and that's that's not it's not in a couple weeks so I don't really care if if we need more time together alternative locations um Mr Copy when realistically it's just hypothetically it's the will of the council to say we don't want to continue the operations and we need to make that decision before someone has the opportunity to think they can recreate their dogs there what what timeline would you say what date would that be um mayor members of the council if I could predict when ice out is I would be able to give you an answer um uh typically when um ice goes out our Park staff um get down there get the buoys in um as soon as practicable um so soon as we can we get down there we start putting the uh Marina together docks buoys that kind of thing um not sure what I out will be this year obviously last year was very early one of the I think the earliest in at least recent history so um it's supposed to be 50° next week could be March could be May um typically April time frame is kind of that magic time frame um one thing I will caution to is that to locate Alternatives there's a lot of factors that we need to look at from uh that we can't do with ice on the lake um so really have to look at that once the ice is out uh look at vegetation look at bottom look at um regulatory issues um you know a lot of what was thrown around was do we need to make Shoreline improvements to make this work you know a Sandy Bottom uh obviously regulatory hurdles that we would have to um get through to to even look at that so um not something that we can do in short term um uh and like uh city manager Crawford said you know that public engagement if we truly move locations out of mosa Park okay well we heard from one council member that they're they're not willing to act on just what the recommendations of the commission are they're other folks we can we can pump this down the road a little bit does anybody feel the need to bring something to close I don't know Mr Mayor we've had trouble on this council with sort of legislative on the Fly I don't think that's that hard I don't think it's I mean I I've got a couple ideas in my head if a motion to close it doesn't pass there are alternative motions that I have in my had that I can simply voice I can prepare them in advance doesn't require staff work doesn't require we we can think about these ideas I think on the Fly and if we don't want to do it on March 11th you know we can we can we can delay uh we have that power to do that say let's let's think about this for another couple weeks come back at the next meeting we do have some time um so I don't know that we have to decide tonight like what all the Motions are and uh we can we can do some legislating and some talking uh on the 11th like we planned okay well that's fine with me um but on that note I want to say to everyone in the audience and the park board who spent a lot of time on this and I said this last fall um we're going to at least while I'm sitting in this chair we're going to bring this up one more time and if it's the will of the council that matasa is going to have a dog beach and that's just how it is I've got no appetite to continue to revisit this over and over again continued complaints are fair continued improvements are fair more fencing is fair um but we can't we can't do this every single year there there is a need for finality um in whatever direction that is I conversely if we it I don't want to you know be considering reopening it the following year we just it's it's been 18 years that we've had this we've got these problems I think it's right for closing and we should close it now but if that ultimately doesn't Prevail on the council um then that's the the standing amenity at matasa that's that's my position on that because I do recognize the strain it has put on not only the park commission but I haven't thanked staff yet for their continued work with this and they've done a great job but we we just can't constantly fight this battle it'll it'll continue or it won't um and that'll be that so on that note um doesn't matter you know what we do in two weeks um the the conversation is going to continue and I think one way or another this this Council one more time is going to make a decision on a vote to close or not in the coming weeks or couple of months prior to the season and I'm not pre-ordained that that means it's going to close um but historically with the memo that we have in front of us and a recommendation from the park board we would have a resolution to that effect and vote up or down and that to me would be the mechanism by which we do that because you can amend that to say whatever you want and we could do that so all right um yeah well I just want to make sure we're done no no more final thoughts on that council member Walsh yeah on the March 11th meeting will you be taking public testimony no thank you for bringing that up this was the opportunity that doesn't mean people's email boxes aren't open or phone numbers can't be called but this was the opportunity to speak publicly um I'll speak only for myself I appreciate the public testimony and that's important from folks um I don't always respond especially on an issue like this because there were just so many emails but I read all my emails so if you feel like I didn't get a chance to testify tonight you can send us an email again I'm speaking only for myself but I will read it the message will get get get get through um and I've received many many emails from residents only to me all of those got disseminated to the broader Council so that we can make an informed decision that includes those that are vehemently in support of keeping the dog beach this is this is just full disclosure put all the feedback out um but this is the last public hearing opportunity we have had it um and it's it was good so thank you all right we are going to take uh a 5 minute break here for the good of the order as we till we move on to the next item agenda thank you all for coming I don't know what I want to make down and they do F but they bringing I e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e and uh we've got item 6B Public Finance policy Mr lindall or miss shimik all right somebody I'm blaming Miss Crawford who told me to say Mr Lind yeah that's what I okay whoever's ready to speak on this please proceed well since you asked oh sorry mayor members of council uh the item before us well that's much louder than I'm used to the item before us is um a continuation of the housing policy discussion that we've been having um and that is to adopt a public financing policy in addition to establishing a public financing policy this would be revising um an older tax increment financing policy that was adopted in 2015 and a business subsidy policy that was adopted in 2009 uh adopting such a policy is an important tool um it allows us as staff to bring forth requests in a standard way to the council when there are um requests for public assistance and it gives the council a standard form with which to evaluate those requests this particular policy lays out the purposes and Authority for granting business assistance the city's objectives the principles guiding the city's use of public financial assistance and other admin admin ministrative work adoption of this policy provides a framework for evaluating requests but not but does not create an obligation for con for Council to provide such assistance and it allows for a case-by casee evaluation staff believes the adoption of this policy is in alignment with our 2040 comprehensive plan the city's housing policy and program priorities and the 2040 2024 strategic plan and with that I will stand for any questions um our recommend staff's recommendation is that Council conducts the public hearing on the matter and considers adopting the resolution establishing establishing the Public Finance policy and amending the existing policies thank you m shck at this time we open up mayor uh members of the council I would just add a couple uh couple of quick points um first you may remember um Tracy went by this kind of quickly but you may remember we looked we had a detailed presentation from Ellers on public financing Tools in general um back in April and then back I believe at your work session in November uh is when we presented you the draft of this policy and we went through kind of each section and discussed it and um had conversation about that and so really what is before you tonight is the the the original policy that the the council had time to to look at at that work session and um it's sub it's the same um as as that night um and um really what was staff's intention tonight was really just to bring you what we've already you know gone over in a work session um and and look for um to move this forward um and I would just also you know underline what Tracy me mentioned is what's before you is a framework for reviewing And discussing and considering applications and and really that's it and um the council can adopt this policy and amended at any time so again with that we' take questions I'll quick follow to that if memory serves me this was there's a whole lot of maze in here so this is effectively adopting a a toolbox with no obligation to use anyone particular tool but we're saying these are the ones that we want to put at our disposal that a fair analogy uh mayor is the council yes okay um at this time I'll open it up to a public hearing to anyone who would like to speak on this issue the public hearing is now open anybody going once going twice the public hearing is now closed all right we'll bring it back to the council Council questions for staff or what would we' like to do council member edber thank you Mr Mayor uh two items just to the Council in a few moments after we adjourn the council meeting we're going to take up this exact same policy as the HRA so uh whatever if there's any unique contributions I suppose you can save them or we can all hash it out here and shorten the HRA meeting so just the the heads up there um staff so um I appreciated the conversations that we've had and the the draft policies that you brought to us um I think they almost unanimously made sense to me I there might be some tweakings around the edges but um are there is there anything in these policies that is remarkably different from the drafts that you that you presented for to us prior I most of the language rying clear enough that it's like I've read this before I know we've talked about it but I'm it's several pages long and so I'm looking the fine print answer is there anything new that or you know substantially refined from what we first discussed uh mayor members of council it is largely the same based on the um direction we took from Council from the work session there was a section that stried uh that struck consideration of providing Public Assistance towards retail uses okay I remember that conversation thank you council member Walsh uh well thank you Mr a motion would be in order to approve the is there a resolution in front of us I'm not really correct resolution front of us I'll move that and I have a comment on it I have a motion to have a second motion a second further discussion jogging my memory the the impetus for this or the business reason to do this and you correct me if I'm wrong again I'll characterize you say I'm right or wrong but this is a communication document this is a document that communicates to the public and to developers and people that may want to do things in our city uh you know what things might be available and the one of the goals was to limit or lower staff time on phone calls trying to explain you know what things may or may not be in a toolbox not again not not obliging us to do anything but I see this as a communication document and if I'm just trying to remember this because it was November I guess seems like a long time ago am I is it my memory right mayor members of council yes your memory serves you correct it just gives a tool with which to communicate with developers and other interested parties um it establishes a uniform way of considering these requests and it gives us a tool uh that we don't currently really have as staff and will there be some staff Time Savings here I mean do you think that's really like last time on the phone or was there a benefit here you think I I yes I think when those conversations come up we have a clear answer you know does it fit into this does it not if it fit fits into this we'll bring it forward to council for their consideration if it doesn't we don't feel like it's worth bringing to council thank you council member edberg I'd like to follow on that on member Walsh's uh comment so miss shimik if if it so it's a toolbox it's a screening uh device if an applicant wants to if if you say you know that really doesn't fit or we don't think it fits but the applicant wants to push that one level up the chain is that permitted or what's how does what's staff's role in interpreting Visa V A take it leave it this is your best offer whatever how how how should we think about this screen in that context mayor members of council um you may or may not recall but as a part of adoption adopting the fee schedule um for 2025 it included escrow for the considerations for Public Finance because there's an analysis required that we would Outsource to work with our fin public financial advisers and so in addition if somebody was really pushing the issue and wanted to bring it for before Council um for lack of a better saying they would have to put their money where their mouth is and that's another part um of this tool is that it's not just just anybody who's casting a wide net it's people who are seriously interested and have what they believe to be a viable project and a viable request thank you City attorney Mr Anderson had a comment that he wanted to make yeah thanks mayor and councel um I agree with everything so far that's been said I would just add to that in order to even be able to Grant business subsidies the city and the H have to have to adopt a set of criteria minimum requirements that you know somebody would or an entity would need to meet before they can even get their foot in the door so this checks that box as well you can't develop that criteria on a case-by Case basis under the statute you have to have that um policy in place um beforehand so um in addition to everything else that's an important reason why we're why we're here tonight no thank you that's very helpful okay any further discussion on this all right seeing none all those in favor of approving the resolution and the public financing policy say I I any opposed motion carries the resolution passes all right item seven unfinished business nothing scheduled item eight new business nothing scheduled item nine discussion nothing scheduled item 10 Communications from the city manager Miss Crawford I will spare you tonight all right thank you so no questions for M Crawford I'd entertain a motion to adjourn all those in favor say I I we're adjourned for