Let's start. 5:15. Can we please call the workshop to order? April 1st. Council member Nordby here. Council member Woods here. Council member McKenzie here. Uh, so excuse me. Council member Schwear is absent and Mayor Mongi here. Thank you very much. All right. Can I get a motion to adopt the agenda, please? So move. So move. Council member Mackenzie. Second. Second. Council member Woods. All those in favor say, "I." I. I. Thank you very much. All right. We are on to topics. All right. Thank you, Mayor. We have two topics up tonight. Um, first one is discussion of proposed ordinance amendment 117 of the North St. Paul city code which is consumption and display of permits. It was a conversation we had at the last council meeting. We have uh attorney Jack Burksbank to uh discuss. Thank you, Jack. Good afternoon, Mr. Mayor, members of council. Um can you can you hear me through here all I assume? What can you hear me through the microphone? I don't know. I can't hear any. Uh, as long as I'm on the Oh, that's better. There we go. Just want to make sure I'm on the recording. Um, so before you um we had a little bit of discussion uh on this matter uh at the last council meeting uh although I believe Mr. Mayor, you weren't present. Uh so, uh we had um discussion with a potential local business owner, uh who was um here in the audience then, not here now. Um talking about consumption and display permits. Uh, as we mentioned at the previous meeting, a consumption and display permit is a type of liquor license that does not allow a business to sell or serve alcohol, but does allow people to bring their own um, you know, to the location and selfs serve. Uh the council at the time had uh couple of concerns uh that we have addressed with an updated uh or attempted to address uh with an updated draft of the ordinance uh that I believe should be before you and um of course my laptop has decided to freeze. Uh but uh uh handling a couple of um concerns. Number one uh that the council had asked for was uh making sure that there was going to be some kind of a uh you know sober professional who would be in charge of um serving the alcohol. Now on the way that the law works this cannot be an employee of the venue. Um so it has to be sort of an outside person. Um but uh the draft in front of you would require um some kind of an additional professional um with some kind of training. and we say, you know, um MLBA or tips training or equivalent. Uh and then it's kind of on them. Uh we also require uh that the venue um keep proof of who that person is and their um certification for 3 years. Uh the reason for that is there is a 2-year statute of limitations on um liquor liability claims. Uh, and so that will make sure that if there were to be a claim, the venue should have kind of all of the information of the party and the insurance and everyone involved. Um, and so hopefully that information would uh be easily accessible. Um, there we go. Uh, also restricted the available locations for these to locations that would otherwise be eligible for a liquor license. So that would be basically business district. Uh it would make sure that it you know it wouldn't be available too close to the school or in residential areas. Um believe those are uh kind of the the main changes um from before. I know you know there's still um potential for change. This is still just a draft. Uh uh one thing I would note current draft uh so having talked with uh some insurance folks as well as the potential business owner uh it is possible to get what's called event insurance. So basically the venue would be carrying its own general liability insurance. It would not be carrying um you know sort of drram shop or liquor liability insurance because that's not really what's going right. Graham shop is for if you serve someone who is drunk and the venue will not be serving anyone. It is possible for an event such as a wedding reception or a you know award dinner or something to acquire their own insurance. It's like a one-day event insurance. Uh this draft would require event insurance if you have an event of 25 or more people. Um that number of 25 people is just what I thought was reasonable on the day uh and is fully up to council. Um you could require it for an event of two people. You could require it for you know an event of 50 or more. Um you know that sort of uh at what level were we going to kick in a requirement that you have insurance. And of course the venue can always require you know more insurance than we do. uh nothing in there would prevent the venue from playing it safer. This is just what are the minimum requirements? How involved does the city want to be in this as opposed to having the business managing things? Um keeping in mind of course that these permits will be available beyond just the proposed wedding venue. Um although that is the impetus for the change. Um, so that's kind of the uh kind of the the changes. Uh, I guess I'll run through a couple of um policy decisions as well that were discussed at the past meeting that Mr. Mayor was not at. Um, eligibility. Uh, so under state statute, it's quite a broad eligibility. It's anyone who hasn't been convicted of a liquor license violation, uh, or a restaurant, bar, B&B, hotel, some list of businesses. Uh, presumably the idea being that if you lost your liquor license as a restaurant, you couldn't get a new liquor license because you violated it, but you could potentially get one of these permits to allow people to bring their own even if you weren't serving them. Um so the question is does the city want to allow the maximum statutory eligibility or restrict that further which the city does have the ability to do. Uh the second item uh is the fees. There is a statutory cap uh on $300 for the fee that would include um you know some background checks uh and the sort of the administrative process of granting the permit. Uh there's also a $250 permit fee for the state. So it will be a total of $550 uh which is similar to a um club special liquor license about twice what it get costs for a 32 license uh and about 10% of the next cheapest liquor license. So it seemed at the time that the council was interested in at least starting at the maximum given the amount of background checks that the city would be performing. Um but again that is a decision that is left to the council. Uh and then finally um the draft in front of you uh would that would be a council procedure just like a liquor license. um there would be an opportunity for anyone to be heard and then the council would make the final decision on whether to grant the permit. Uh that again unlike with a full liquor license that is not a statutory requirement. Um so if the council didn't want to be involved, you could decide um that that would be an administrative permit that would be handled sort of exclusively by staff. um or if the council would prefer to be kept more involved in the process, we could leave it as a council decision. That's kind of laying out where we're at, what some of the changes have been since the last meeting. Uh and so at this point, I would turn it to the council if there's any discussion or any questions. Uh at this point, thank you, Jack. Thank you so much. I really appreciate all the work you put on to this. Um I have two two questions, I guess. the insurance requirement that you are mandating. Do you believe that is similar or the same and complies with these state shop laws? I I know you said it's not the business. Yes. Yes. I I believe it would be similar scope of coverage for you know you so you get invent event insurance for a wedding reception. If one of the guests at the wedding reception gets too drunk and then injures someone, um the weddings insurance would be the coverage that would uh sort of provide for that. So it it would be a pretty similar to a drram shop insurance for a bar except that it would be held by the person throwing the event and not the venue. Awesome. Thank you. Um that answers all my question. I guess the only statement I would have for the council is I believe the insurance should be acquired for any event regardless of number of people. Um uh if they're if they're having an event, I believe they should have to have insurance, right? Uh the chances of one of five getting over served and injuring someone to me is just as good as one in 25. So that would be the only change I would recommend to um the uh Jack's wonderful presentation. I agree to that as it's common in most facilities that you have to have your own insurance for that. Yeah. But other than that, I I really thank you for all the hard work. Yeah, makes sense. Thank you. Any other questions? Anybody? If not, appreciate it. Then you're going to be bringing that come up to the council going to be put in as a as an item. Yes. So, that will be an item then at the next city council meeting. So, we'll um we'll get that uh draft we'll get the the change made on the insurance. Perfect. Uh and then we'll get that posted to the website and uh brought back for a vote at the next council meeting. Now, will the business owner be in in attendance for that then or would it not? Uh potentially it's not required. Um you know, certainly it will be publicly posted. Um I guess we can I'll send her an email to let her know that it will be happening then. Um there's not necessarily a a requirement that she be involved. Yeah, that's for this whole city. So, Yep. Yeah. Thank you. And um since you weren't there last meeting as well, she did clarify that she will not be um available to open in the next couple of weeks anyway. So, it's not like we're delaying the business. Yeah, I saw that video. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you, Jack. Thanks Jack. All right. Next topic is uh code compliance overview. we have. Welcome. Appreciate you coming up and going over this with us. This is been something we've been wanting to do. So, thank you so much for taking time. Yeah, welcome. Can everybody hear me? Great. Um, I have with me uh firefighter code compliance officer McKenzie Foster and we'll just uh review uh some code compliance uh topics and uh at any point you have questions, throw them out, and obviously at the end we can uh take some questions. Um, but I put together uh just a a brief uh PowerPoint and what we're going to review tonight are uh co-compliance officer responsibilities. Uh the process complaint driven and proactive inspections. Uh we'll review our 2024 code compliance numbers. Uh we'll go over the notification to the property owner. Uh time to correct violations. uh what a summary abatement order is and uh legal options uh when progress has not been achieved. So who's enforcing code compliance? Obviously within the fire department uh during the daytime Monday through Friday we have the three uh full-time firefighters but uh mainly McKenzie as the firefighter code compliance officer. She is dealing with the code compliance owner occupied single family homes. Um, also on her plate we won't get into tonight, but the zoning inspections which include driveway inspections, fences and inspections, um, those things of of that sort of of nature as well. And then obviously fire and EMS response. uh are two fire inspectors that deal with uh rental licensing. They will deal with those properties that have code compliance issues uh directly, although McKenzie and those inspectors do work very closely on those issues um passing them back and forth and and discussing those. Uh, but it just helps keep the inspectors in the know of what's going on at that rental property. Uh, they also deal with the fire certificate of compliance, which is our commercial fire inspections. So, they will also deal with code compliance issues there. Um, for instance, if there's garbage and debris in the property, illegal dumping, things of that nature, uh, going on. Um, and they also obviously deal with the inspections at schools, group homes, and uh, sprinkler plan review and fire and EMS response as well. So, how do we get notified of a complaint? There's multiple um ways to get notified throughout the city. Uh, one of the main ways uh is called resident resource which is a um a way through our the city's website and and open gov uh report a problem code compliance concern link from the website to open gov for reporting and the complaint is directly sent to staff. Obviously people can call in to city hall through the mainline. Uh we do have a code compliance uh phone number as well as a code compliance tip line or directly to McKenzie Foster and others as as uh required. Um or email directly uh to staff as well. Uh proactive inspections. Obviously staff look at and note code compliance concerns when they're out in the community doing inspections or even responding to calls. I most recently we've been on a lot of calls lately it seems like where we've been in the neighborhood and have seen uh quite a few of these and often um I'll come back go right into open gov and and dump them in there right away and then all of a sudden then McKenzie's got four or five additional inspections to look at even though she probably saw them as well. But we're always on the look for uh concerns out there. And really all city staff, not just us in in fire are encouraged to report uh code compliance issues uh to us. Most will report to us in person. Um but they can either email or complete the form in open gov to jumpstart the process which is the preferred method for us. uh some numbers from 2024. Um so code violations entered in open gov by staff 228 and they're broken down as you can see 93 of them tall grass and weeds vehicle parking 48. Um, and and really we'll we'll get into a a few of these, but I I know some questions have been asked like what are the problem areas that we have dealing with and what help do we need with and vehicle parking definitely is up there with one of the problems that we have in the city. And it it uh obviously with winter parking restrictions which obviously help out for plowing, it creates a problem for us in code compliance because the properties in the majority of the properties in North St. Paul don't have large enough parking areas to provide parking for you know three, four, five vehicles plus trailers and and other things. So those are some of the areas that um we struggle with in dealing. But uh back to the numbers uh 26 garbage, trash, debris, 24 property maintenance, 17 snow removal, 14 other that could be signs, trees depositing materials on streets. Uh four unauthorized burns. And this is not including the fire department response that uh somebody calls 911 for. and uh two home occupation. And also understanding minimally all of these require at least two inspections. So going out looking at the property, making sure that there is an issue. Yeah. If you want to talk about that a little bit. Oh yeah, sure. Uh yeah. Uh when I get the concern, I will go out and take a look at the property and uh just see what problems I see. Usually when I get a concern about something, I can usually find a couple more things um that while we're there, might as well get it cleaned up. Uh then I will head back to the station and uh while I'm out, I usually try to get some pictures of it. It's easier for everybody just to number one, for us to have proof that there's an issue and number two, so they know exactly what I'm talking about. I like to make it as simple as possible and um go back to the station uh get it uh loaded up in open gov and then get my notice kind of set up and what codes I'm using for what specific problems uh make sure pictures are good to go. Send it out and uh kind of keep an eye on it as it goes by depending on the issue. Um, I mean with the fire department, we drive a lot of the main roads quite a bit. Um, and if it's right off the main road, sometimes on the way back from a medical call or something, I'll be like, "Oh, yeah. I'm just going to take a little detour and take a look at what's going on and uh keep an eye an eye on the progress that's being made with whatever the issue might be. and uh once I get uh once they get to their deadline on the notice, which I think we talked about the deadlines a little bit later, um go back, check it out, see where we're at, or if they contact me and say, "Hey, you know, we need some more time." Or, "Hey, I got this cleaned up. I got the notice. Um everything's fixed." But I go and make sure that everything is up to city standards. And um close things out in open gov and keep my notes as chill as possible. So, Ultimately, those ones that follow up and comply, those are the good ones. Um those that don't could require multiple inspections. I guess that was my main point. So even though um there may be, you know, numbers of those, there can be multiple inspections involved. Go ahead to the next one, Jenny. Uh resident resource submissions. So additionally beyond the previous page of 228 these are the ones that are submitted submitted through open gov by residents. Uh so there were 121 of those in 2024 and uh it allows the complainant to enter what the problem is in detail in the notes section and it allows them to click on a problem that's submitted. Uh so in 24 there were 19 of those that were garbage, 17 that were other could have been the sidewalk obstruction, broken window, construction trailers, uh junken yard, car parts, illegal dumping to excessive trash. And then there were 83 that did not click on the problem. They just typed in the concern and then she would get that notification and go out and look for it. So, this is a little bit different because we actually have a resident that's submitting it through open gov and it allows us or it allows McKenzie to update open gov and it will notify them of any updates that she's submitted. So, when she's done an inspections, what she's seen, what she's doing, what progress is or isn't being made. and it's a way for her and the complainant to communicate on that issue on ongoing. Uh the residents that submit this way, they do have the option to um submit without giving me any idea who they are type of thing. Uh so a lot of them are that and I just kind of go through the steps anyway. Um but uh they on open gov I have the option to let them see what I'm adding notewise or to keep it just so city uh just so like the city can see type of thing internal staff yeah internal thank you and um with a lot of the detail type stuff I try to keep private uh the people that complain all they really want to know is is the problem solved or is the problem going to be solved. So, I do try to keep them as updated as possible on things and appropriately. How does the property owner get notified of the violation? So, during the initial inspection, the code compliance officer obviously will take photos and attempts to make contact with the property owner and talk to them directly. That's obviously preferred, but majority of people uh during the daytime may not be home or around. Uh but we will attempt to do that. Um and that's also a good time that during that conversation that um we can provide them with resources if they are available to what's going on. So whether it's through Ramsey County uh recycling and waste has a lot of uh available resources for residents to use. Um we have our upcoming city cleanup. So over the next month or more every property maintenance issue that we have going on or that comes in uh we will be directing them to the um cleanup as we have done in the pa past or utilizing the city's appliance pickup. uh program uh that's available. So trying to find resources for the property owner to um help them out. Uh ultimately uh a letter document and citing the ordinance is sent in the mail in in all instances even when um you talk to them in person just so that it it formalizes everything. uh for snow removal and tall grass notifications. A lot of the time due to the high number of violations and the need to get a notice out quickly, um we do have uh a notice that can be completed on site and given to the property owner or left on the door. Uh if you want to talk a little bit about that. Uh yeah, a lot of parts in the city uh have uh well, it's supposed to be snowing today. Let's talk about snow. A lot of places in the city have the sidewalks that need to be cleared of snow. And I know kind of our problem areas that I will right after a snowfall go see where we're at with the sidewalks. And uh once that um 12hour mark hits, uh I print off a good amount of those notices, keep them in the squad with me, and just start going door todoor. uh if I am able to catch a homeowner at home or on the property, then I'll, you know, give them the notice and explain what the issue is and what we can do to fix it. Uh if they are not home, then I will just tape it on the door for them. Time to correct violations. Um so the time frame given to correct violations, these are just examples. Uh but obviously we have an immediate um correction time frame meaning it needs to be done as soon as possible. Uh we could have somebody dumping in the right of way. Could be illegal dumping in the street or right of way. Um sometimes that could be in the fall we have residents that will take their entire yard and blow all the leaves into the street and hope that the city picks them up. and that's not necessarily something you can do. Uh snow removal, like M McKenzie said, must be cleared 12 hours after the snow has stopped and uh illegal recreational fires. Uh the three to five day uh garbage issues, uh tall grass and weeds, five to 10 days, yard maintenance, parking in the yard, trailer parking, uh 10 to 15 days, property maintenance items, exterior of the home, 15 to 30 days, could be a tree removal. Um and all of these are based upon severity. and a request to have more time can be uh granted on a a request when warranted as well. So, um the biggest thing is the severity of it and uh we need to get it cleaned up for neighbors and people around uh the problem. Um, but we also try to work with the property owners and and uh work with them as the time frame that they may need to get it corrected. Sometimes, especially with trees, can be a money issue and uh a severe problem for most residents to be able to to deal with. Uh, summary abatement order. So, how does the summary abatement process work? A summary abatement order can be used in extreme situation when no progress has been made and the city has the resources to handle the abatement. Uh some of those examples could be a vacant property where garbage and debris need to be picked up andor uh needs to be mowed. Uh snow removal on neglected sidewalks. Those are some of the the most common areas that we've used. uh summary abatements in the past. Uh the code compliance officer mainly McKenzie works directly with public works department on this to complete uh to achieve the completion and um if the city corrects the nuisance the charges uh will include the cost of the correction inspection travel time equipment etc. The rate is approximately $240 an hour uh per hour plus expenses for abatement. Um reality is uh in 24 we only had one uh abatement completed that was a property uh cleanup. Uh we did have multiple snow removal abatements in 2023. I don't think we've had any yet this year. Snow removal. Um plenty snow notices but no have some snow on no no no abatements. Uh legal options. Uh so what do we do when progress has not been achieved? Um again multiple inspections may need to be conducted. um over the years working directly close with Campbell Canudson Saurin always directing us to try to get achieve achieve our completion by working with them um instead of trying to go to the um le leg legal process and that's that's definitely what we do. So um the the difficulty may be is when no progress has been made. But uh legal intervention is is needed when there has been no progress or we have people that outright refuse to make those requ um corrections. And we've had that whether it's been simple as parking on the grass and refusing to remove it from the grass multiple multiple times and ultimately we just have to go to a citation because they're refusing they're outright uh refusing to work with us on it. I'll go to the next one if you can. All right. Uh again, when progress has not been achieved, we have the option of the citation, which we would use the police department. We then need a sergeant or an officer to help write the citation through their um through their computer and their progress to be able to do that. years past, long time ago, we be we would be able to write out a citation um by hand. Um and previous to that, when the city had their own administrative citations, we use that as well. But currently um in order to write a citation, we need an officer to help do that uh through the city attorney on the police side with Ericson Bell and Beckman Quinn, PA. And the time frame for that in in the court system can be anywhere from two to six months. And the violation will still be active during that time frame. And the judge will determine the outcome based upon our comments to them. Um but sometimes it could be as simple as the removal of the violation, a fine, a probation timeline or etc. We're just at the mercy of what um is determined by the court. Excuse me. A summary judgement order through Campbell Kukson. So, this is really a more lack of a better term. It's basically the city of North St. Paul versus the property owner. Um and the time frame again for that can be two to six months or longer. Um both of these take several months and can get uh into the court system does not necessarily mean always 100% compliance in the end. Uh but ultimately it's an avenue that we are forced to go to because we have no other options. Um obviously there's additional costs associated with them as well. one extreme case that I'll share. Um I it's it's been um almost two years now. I can't believe it. Um but in the spring of 2023, we did have a code compliance issue uh with the authority from a judge to through the summary judgement order allowed us to go onto the property to clean it up. Uh we had the help of public works staff along with all of our staff and we filled multiple dumpsters over two days to get this cleaned up and all the costs were assessed to the property for reimbursement. This process through the court system took approximately 18 months and primarily that was due to uh COVID at the time because we started in August of 2021 and there were delays because of that. But again, we try not to get to this extreme issue. Um, but there can be extreme properties out there that require it. Um, and that's why you may hear from uh residents complaining about a property that could be bad for an extended period of time. But this is also why the reason why we take pictures when we go out because anytime we see progress, we consider it progress. So if it's really bad and we can tell that something has been moved, changed or improved upon, that's progress, and we just keep working with them to get it completed. Um, and some just don't have the resources to be able to complete things quickly or on time. I guess I went through that quicker than I thought. Uh, questions for us. I have one. Yeah. Homeowner decides to take a tree down by themselves. They get the lift, they drop the tree, they leave it lay. Why? How much time are they allowed to move that tree and that debris? Because that's a nuisance. And when you lay all that branches and all that together, you're going to create a mice hole. Yeah, definitely. The It's you I'll I'll go and then you got something to say, too. I'll definitely say um brush um whether it's from a tree that's coming down because you cut it or an accumulation of a brush pile over time, it definitely is is a violation that would need to be addressed. Yeah. Uh absolutely. Uh we've got a couple codes for that and it off top of my head right now. But um uh time limit um I try to be understanding these people, most these people uh they've got jobs outside of them um outside of you know being able to have time to cut down a tree and everything and uh the amount of energy obviously it takes to do that. Um weather obviously is a big factor here in the state of Minnesota. You never know if you're going to get uh 70 and sunny or uh rain and snow. Um especially today and I try to be accommodating to their ability to do things of course also but also uh progress needs to be made on it. Um so time frame wise uh uh depending on the time limit I mean uh a week and uh if they need more time to do it type of thing then hopefully they will contact me and give me a heads up like hey I'm working on it my work schedule got really busy give me what whatever excuse they want to give me and we can work with it as long as I'm seeing progress I'm happy. Well, another thing I'm thinking is do we have a list of like private homeowners that would like to go and take wood off somebody's property if they'd allow them to go take it that I got this tree down. I don't have the equipment to move it. You come on my property, take it and get rid of it as you want. At least that'll help stop start cleaning some of that stuff up. Yeah, we don't have anything like that. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I think that's a pretty great idea. You know, get a list of guys that burn wood all the time and if they they instead of having to buy it sometimes, they can go to homeowners properties and and uh hey, I'll I'll take your wood if you're willing to let me come on your property and get rid of it. You know, it's one way of uh speeding up a little process. So, if I could jump in on that. So, we used to do that once upon a time um down at the old shop and we would cut up wood and we'd put it out on the by the curb. Couple of issues that we can see with that. For one, moving around ashwood. Um depends on what the wood is. Yeah. Yeah. But then also, we had people coming onto our property using chainsaws and uh it's it's making a big mess. They're leaving the wood behind and you have potentials of getting hurt. It's it's it's becomes a liability. Yeah. But it's a great idea because it's too bad somebody can't use it. But right there just all the other issues that come with it. Okay. Well, thank you very much for the presentation. Appreciate you doing it. I'm not going to I'm just thanking them first. So question wise I have is when it um when it comes to this, you know, no mo and different things like that is and part of it is, you know, you're just out there doing what the city and the council are asking. you're not out making up stuff at night that's going to be your violations for the day. So, we want to make sure that uh as as us as a group and as a city that we're having realistic expectations. We're understanding the codes. Is there things that are codes that you know are antiquated? I know that and the driveway were the two that when it came to it that but we do have limited parking of course and you know having the streets clear. So my big thing is, you know, can we do, you know, right now you have the no with about the mowing and things like that. Is there something we could do as a city? Cuz I know there I can't remember if it was talked the last time, Cassidy or not when they were somebody discussed that you have to like go to the to city hall and register to be, you know, have a garden of some or whatever it is plants. So is that something that uh garden? Yeah. somebody wants to really have and instead of looking out and say, you know, I don't want to mow in January or excuse me, January. We could have mowed January. I want to mow in May. So, I'm just going to say I'm letting it go to the bees. You know, that's that's not what we need to have around here. We need to be able to have if it really truly is and it takes a lot of care to do something like that. So, my question is, you know, how does that approach how does that nom affect you and different things like that? because I don't think we have anything that we talk about as far as how the city handles that. Yeah, correctly. We the city of North St. Paul, we do not have anything specifically for Nomo May. And just because a resident may feel like they want to adopt that and do that, I can understand their feelings on why they want to do that, but it's still not allowed in our city. So that then falls on correct McKenzie to deal with talk a little bit about those native and without a special circumstances it shouldn't be allowed because it's sometimes it's just a way to get out of mowing. Absolutely. And I I've even had a couple uh residents tell me, "Oh, I was doing the no mo. Why can't I do that?" And I explained the city of North St. Paul, we've got the code uh 6 in has to be under six inches for the grass. And uh there are some times in the summer that you can definitely get by with no M without having any sort of issue, but there's times that you can't and that's when I explained that that's still needs to get done. Um they're usually pretty compliant at that point and get it mowed and everything's good to go. uh native gardens. Um I I don't have an exact answer for that, but I mean we drive around and we can point to a garden. Oh, that's very clearly a taken care of well garden and that's just weeds that they're letting overgrowth. Um uh the idea for the native gardens is um a lot of people will grow them for you know pollinators and um and stuff like that. If you just have a bunch of overgrowth of uh that's clearly not u landscaped type of thing, not well taken care of, you can definitely see the difference. Sure. Um, and if it's taken care of, uh, uh, well-maintained and, um, is that something where we need to have them, you know, come in and have something where, you know, as far as this is what I'm, you know, doing because it makes that make it hard for you. And another thing I would like to see is for any of the boulevards in the city not be able to do that because the boulevards people can't get in out of the cars and it's one of you go to St. Paul especially too when you you know you're going into a jungle when you're trying to get out of the car and the boulevards are city property really. Well they own the city owns 5t behind that curb line also. So I mean technically that five feet they can't grow they shouldn't grow their gardens within that five feet. That's visibility for commerce and cars. Uh if I can just jump in really quickly, Mr. Mayor. Uh just a couple of points to make. Number one, you mentioned sort of um you know, registration for native landscaping. Uh that's actually an area we've been preempted by state legislature. Uh so there's a state statute that says we have to allow uh the specific term that they use is managed natural landscape. um which they define as a planned, intentional, and maintained planting of native or non-native grasses, flowers, ferns, trees, etc. Then um so it's essentially up to judgment on what counts as planned, intentional, and maintained. It does specifically say uh managed natural landscapes does not include turf grass lawns left unattended for the purpose of returning to a natural state. So somewhat in the eye of the beholder, some gray area there between just letting it grow and you know an intentional perennial garden. Um but that's kind of in general we have to allow it secondarily to that. You mentioned the boulevards. Um so again the city has um usually some easement rights there. So that's actually the city you know city as sort of controlling property owner. Um this was recently a big fight in the city of St. Paul which I know because I live there. um where they will allow certain types of plants without any kind of permit and then you can get an obstruction permit to allow like a raised bed or something, right? The conditions for all of that is that they have a um you know a defined like a clear view area um which is I think 30 feet back from a stop sign or something like 30 ft back from a an intersection or something like that. Um that's on my street. Yeah. So looking at a photo of some obstructed views from grasses there. Um generally how that's handled is there's it's not necessarily have to have grass within that area. It's just cannot have vegetation higher than however high you want to set it. You know a foot or something two feet um foot or 18 inches. Two feet. however, however, how you want to put it, uh, within some, you know, sort of defining a triangle around um, you know, sort of at the corner of an intersection. And so it would be, you know, 20 or 30 feet back from the intersection on both sides and then the line between those points. That's usually how it gets handled there is um, you know, instead of trying to regulate plants, we we want to be directly regulating visibility. That's what it is. That's what we want. Mhm. It's so hard when it comes down to perceptions. One man's trash is another man's treasure. How many times have we heard that? And it makes it real tough on you. She's never been yelled at. I guarantee you that. Thank you today. So, I don't know. Awesome. Oh, that's good. It's a good day. Um, two questions uh for you if you don't mind. Um, is the 12-hour snow removal standard for the around area and is that too fast? And what I think of is I'm very proud of I keep the fire hydrant by my house clear, but I work a five a 12-h hour shift. So if the snow stops at 1:00 a.m., I'm not getting it to till 6:00 p.m. when I get home to clear it. Um so are are we creating I is that realistically too fast for our residents um that that 12-h hour and is it consistent with um surrounding areas? And then B, um, one of the things, it might be somewhat unseen, but I believe one of the biggest code violations that, uh, there are is the lipo batteries and the all the batteries that we are not supposed to put in our trash in the trash. Has the fire department ever thought of having a battery receptacle at the fire station for those re recycle? Yeah, both good questions. uh the snow uh with the snow removal 12 hours is when I start handing out the notices and that's just I think of the notices as a reminder. Um nobody's getting tickets. Nobody's getting any fines or anything like that. Not yet at least. This is just a reminder. This is the city code. Just letting you know this needs to be done. And then with that uh they've got a couple days to do it. Most people go grab their shovel right away and are clearing the sidewalk before I get in the truck. And usually it's that easy. Um I'm not super duper sure on the surrounding communities time limit on snow removal. That is definitely something that I will check into. Yeah, we can we can look into that. But I would say um I would imagine we're fairly consistent with what we're doing. But I can totally understand what you're saying, council member. Um, and definitely um we're going to uh give plenty of time for people to clear it off um before we get to an extreme point. But uh and the way I look at it is I want to be respectful of your time and your energy where I it at 300 p.m. is it worth it to put stuff on people's doors when most were getting done at 5:00 p.m. Right. And and a lot of times say if it it did stop some you know snowing earlier this morning. I mean we wouldn't be out any time on the same day to do the notices. It's usually more than a day later. And sometimes even if it snows on the weekend, we're well after um when the snow has stopped um by the time we're giving out notices. um with and along with the snow removal um I do tend to focus on I've got a couple commercial properties that are have some problems with that and I do focus on the commercial properties and um kind of the main sidewalks and the main streets and uh definitely leading to schools. So um those are the ones that I kind of focus on first and get the notices out first. I had to walk, you know, through snow uphill both ways to school like everybody else. And uh just trying to keep uh the city looking good with the snow and keeping everybody's boots dry. Um and then uh the uh other question with the batteries, I'm not really sure if that's something we've talked much about. I'd have to look into that because I know internally we used to collect uh u batteries and recycle them and I know um there are limited places uh to do that. I would be all for um finding a a resource to be able to get rid of that. So, I've I've written that down and something we can look into because I agree a lot of these are getting tossed into the garbage nowadays. Then anytime we can recycle, it's going to be a better option. Can I jump in there a little bit? So, we do that clearly at the public works building all the car truck batteries that we have and uh for when they first remade it made it a requirement that you need to recycle them. Um it was any vendor was supposed to take them. Well, then they had issues because their trucks were starting on fire cuz people didn't properly cover the leads on those. Um which I one of those before and and that becomes the issue if you have a public drop off place. Um if you're not watching all that and being on top of that, then you can have that same issue. And when you say the batteries that need to be recycled, um, even the recyclers themselves, like the regular household batteries, the AAA DS, they're saying you can toss those. It's the rechargeable ones for the most part or those little button batteries that those ones are supposed to be brought in, but you could have the issues with potential fires. And so, we've tried to look into that ourselves before. Otherwise, you can take them all every all your D's, A's and B's, you can take them all out to Battery Plus, recycle them there. They'll take everything. Yep. Easy peasy. And then I I guess my final thought would be for my fellow council members and mayor, it um with the discussion we just had, do you feel that it would be warranted to ask these fine folk to review these St. Paul ordinance and give us their recommendation on if that would be something we would want to adopt? um is a similar standpoint. I I guess as far or for as far the the the wildlife to curb the ones Jack the boulevard management. Yeah. Well, I think we should look into it. Well, I would say we would pick something more comparable to our city, not city of St. Paul. White Bear or something. Little Canada. Y I agree with that. Some other suburbs because Yeah. St. Paul is St. Paul is is Yep. All right. We will we will look into some see what is out there in other communities as it relates to this because definitely over the years we've seen an increase in what we'll call native vegetation being added to um people's yards and where they're putting it and it being a concern. Ultimately, um it seems like um when they add native vegetation, you know, it's just like anything else, but you have to maintain it from the beginning. And as soon as it you've lost that maintenance, it it goes away very quickly. Increases. Mice, VO, everything. I mean, it's just a breeding ground for all these little critters. How about sheds that have roofs caving in on top of them? Well, I mean that would definitely be um a property maintenance issue that that we could address to tell you the truth and you know should be addressed on that with you send it to us we'll take a look at it. Um, but that's definitely something that we can look at and ultimately on something like that since it's it's not necessarily uh a structure as it relates to a house, a home or detached garage. Um, we would allow them to make necessary corrections on the shed. Um, anything else we would definitely get uh our our our inspectors involved and our building official involved. How many sheds are allowed to be on a property? Put me on the spot. Uh shed on a property. Shed would be an accessory building and I it's not a lean to either. It's a shed shed. So it's built off the side of a garage. I believe they have I think they have two for sure. And I think they might have a smaller third one. I believe it's two. I will have to look into that. Um I think it's two. Does anybody else know? No. Okay. Uh I think it's two, but I will double check that. On another note, you had indicated that um city uh staff had entered or has reported not entered, excuse me, has reported uh code violations as well. Are those entered into open gov? So that's how we're tracking it or do they just email you? We get notifications many different ways. So a lot of times um McKenzie's in communication with the community development staff. So, if they get a phone call in to community development, a lot of times they'll either talk to McKenzie in person who will then enter it or if she's not around, they can enter it directly into Open Gov or they can email her the information. Um, if we have a voice message, a lot of times they'll just forward it to her as well um for handling. Those are some of the different ways. How else are you seeing them? All the ways. Um, yeah, somebody will call on to the city and they will either forward the message to me or forward that person to me. Um, I get emails quite a bit on um different things. I've got public works that'll go out and be like, they'll shoot me a text saying, "Oh, I drove by this tree. This tree is dead. You need to take care of it." Or get them to take care of it. Um, so those are all being tracked though, right? So we're those either city staff's doing it or if it gets emailed to you or it's a voicemail, it's all getting tracked through open gov. Correct. Okay, perfect. The only thing we Well, I I say we have two different categories. the resident resource that we know are coming directly from the residents as they're being entered in. And then all the other code compliance ones um that I separated out, the 228 are definitely um entered in uh by staff. The only specific thing related to those um I don't necessarily break them down to know if how they came in if it was a phone call and email or um city staff or if it's something we found proactively on our own. But definitely um yeah a lot of different ways and we've been using obviously open gov for a few years and we continue to evolve and change with it to make it user friendly. I know McKenzie has changed it over time to help her with snow and and lawn maintenance because those are the high priority or the high issue high frequency I should say that she deals with. So just tweaking um open gov with McKenzie and staff and community development to help uh better us and then to be able to pull those reports and see what's going on and and what's happening out there. So I guess I have a couple of questions. one um my assumption is that at any given time there's multiple code violations that you're dealing with McKenzie and given that is you know how do you prioritize you know not not to call out anybody or anything but I mean how do you do you prioritize based on public safety or you know what is the biggest risk to public safety or you know things like that. Yeah, I I safety is definitely a big concern. Um whether it be somebody dumping a bunch of trash in the street and that's going to affect other drivers and potentially cause an accident. Um you know, that's kind of a big one, but uh obviously slippery uh snowy sidewalks is also very important. Okay. Safety is a really big thing, but also um just uh just trying to keep everything kind of moving with it, you know. Yep. Fair enough. I I know you mentioned like the schools and things like that. I mean obviously access to schools and access to you know public areas and things like that are probably you know my biggest push for her and staff is when we have garbage and debris and a lot of times we'll have whether it's a rental property or not. Um a lot of people will just pile out garbage and debris at the front of the yard and just expect somebody to pick it up or the garbage company to pick it up. and sometimes it can be out there for a few days I if it's in an area that we're not normally driving by. Um so we do rely on our residents to let us know what's going on, but definitely when we see something or we're made aware of garbage and debris, we want to take care get that taken care of right away. Um and if it isn't, that's something that we would move into, you know, an abatement process with for sure. So that's really a priority. Okay. For me, I guess my second thing is um what can we do as a council and I guess as a community to assist you? You know, you mentioned reaching out to you and making sure that you're aware of any potential code violations. Obviously, you know, you want to be um you don't want to over report and things like that, too. But um what can we do as a community? What can we do as you know city council to assist you to make you your life easier in this case? I'll let you go in a second here, but resources have been um a major impact for us in dealing with a residents on on certain areas. Um and it's all dependent on on the issue. So, if we're dealing with a property because they have broken windows, uh, you know, chipping and peeling paint, siding, those types of issues, they have a different resource that they need to, um, be able to to complete their their project. Unfortunately, there's not a lot out there. You know, I wish we had some to some type of fund that would be able to help out residents in those situations. Um, but when we get to uh a cleanup of sorts, garbage and debris, those types of things, or even tree removal, it's it's just having an answer for them. Um so we've are trying to do uh a better job of providing resources um out there in newsletters to provide let our residents know so that they can be a little more proactive pro proactive and dealing with the issue. Um, one of the things we talked about earlier today and was talking with McKenzie and we it it's the code has changed or evolved over the years as it relates to parking, especially to uh trailers on a property. And that's parking on a driveway and in the yard as it relates to vehicles and trailers is really the most difficult thing I think she probably has has to deal with because ultimately um when they run out of space and they have too too much stuff they they it you're kind of like this. You're going back and forth and that that is really a difficulty. And I don't necessarily I've been doing this plenty of years and I don't necessarily have have the answer for that. You know, um people want their toys, uh but they don't necessarily have the p space on their property to be able to store them properly. Um trailers used to be allowed to be uh in in your backyard on the grass depending on the size. Code changed a few years ago. now require them to be on a approved driveway service, right? Um and so, however, we still have people with small trailers and boats and those types of things that are in their backyard that now we're having to address those issues, but we don't necessarily always get compliance out of it because we don't have they don't have a place to move them. Mhm. A lot of times, I'll be honest, we're notifying people of these issues, but I'm not going to give somebody a citation for having a utility trailer in their backyard. Um, but we also have to deal with a a neighbor that may be complaining of those types of things and and work things back and forth. So, those are the situations that um can be difficult. Yeah. So right now the uh parking code uh states all vehicles personal, recreation or commercial shall be stored or parked on a driveway surface. Uh driveway surface um is ultimately uh asphalt concrete or concrete brick. Uh city no longer recognizes class 5 as a driveway surface. And I think that's thrown a lot of people off. Mhm. Um I've had actually two people today just tell me, "Oh, I'll just throw some class 5 down and it'll be good." And it's it's not good. Um did you have a question? No, I I am looking at obviously at you as a surprise. And I say that because concrete asphalt, all of that is very expensive. And if you don't have the dollars for that to fund that, I think we should definitely reconsider looking at that because class 5, I mean, I I have a I think that's I think we should revisit it because it's a very expensive, especially these days now, concrete and asphalt are very expensive for residents and we don't live in a high-end neighborhood that people can afford that kind of stuff. So, I I would like to revisit that at some point if we can. Yeah. And that's absolutely part of it. uh people don't have money to expand their driveways appropriately to become in compliance. Um not only paying for the work to be done, they also have to pay for the permit. Hopefully they're doing it correctly, right? Um and pay for somebody to do it and the materials. It all adds up and not everybody has that am that that type of money. Um, could could I would make could we uh instead of the class five, I think the reg grind product that they put as a road base would be a better material because you won't get that mud as you would from the class 5 come draining off onto your your soils and your basins and that down there. that reg grind is a lot better and more dense where it's mixed with concrete, asphalt, and whatever's in there. You know, I think that would be a better base. I would agree with that. Um, as it relates to, you know, having a permitting process for it, I think would uh help guide that process. It might be a little cheaper than class 5. It would need still need to be done because ultimately a person cannot put gravel or class 5 or whatever down throughout their entire front yard, right? No, I realize that area, but we want them to go through the process and do it do it properly um through the permitting process system. Yeah. Yeah. But I I would agree with that. Ultimately, it it doesn't matter what the product is. Um whatever is there depending on um you know the weather. If there's a heavy rain and it's washing out, then that's an issue that again we have to follow up, right? If it's coming out into the uh the street and in and the drains and deal with that. But um those those are some of the wise obviously that it is it you know um but it it's definitely uh one of the bigger issues that we we deal with and like well I don't think we're when you look over at uh Margaret over across the street and between the buildings we're not in compliant in our public parking lots right now. So kind of hard to turn around and tell somebody else something different. Very much so. I have one last thing. Hypothetically speaking, this is for city staff. If any resident wants to um make a ordinance claim or uh concern where on the website do you go? Yeah. So at the very forance Yeah. If you go to the city website and Hold on. Am I Am I up? There we go. If you go to the city website and citizen concerned, I believe at the top it'll it'll there should be a tab that says report uh code compliance issue. Okay. Yeah, it that should bring you to open gov and fill out some information go from there. Excellent. I say that just so anyone watching or references this again. There's also a phone line for code compliance too that they can leave a message. So overall as a council, would we want to look into that with the this type of different circumstant besides the gravel besides the um cement and the and the um black top? Certainly can. I know make sense to the council. Yeah, I think so. I think we look into it, but I would still prefer to be black top or concrete, but scenarios make people can't afford everything. So, at least if they would dress it up around their pad with the reg grind or whatever they're going to use, as long as it's nice and grass and green along the edge, it's taken care of. That's all we're looking for, too. Property looks good. Is that acceptable? I think you have to have a permit to do it 100%. That way, we can be able to say, "No, you can't put it right there. You need to be able to have it, you know, a little farther behind and pull a permit where we're following all the requirements as you install a driveway so that the percentage of driveway is correct to your lot. I agree. And we did have a gentleman show up here, I think it was last year, the year before, and he's had a little pad alongside his garage with, you know, with gravel and for years. and all of a sudden somebody came and complained about his trailer on that and he came in and said, you know, it's taken care of and it's neat. How come this is an issue now? So, it' be good to address this be able to help out. How about pavers? We could have even suggest pavers, too. Would it be a good deal? Pavers are allowed. Yep. So, PA, concrete, and black top are good right now. Anything else? because you're our you're the feet the boots on the the street and we want to make sure we give you what you need and understand you know if there's think something that you go I can't believe this is even an ordinance or is there something that really you know that you would like to bring up because this is the time and plus real quick we learn now that good neighbors need for reminders they'll take care of it but I get quite a few emails you know this has not been taken care of what are you doing as we can see two to takes months. So if if you're not playing nice, nothing's going to happen quick. And we do get multiples. We get emails where it becomes it's just time. So thank you. Um my last item on here was more just kind of a language error or editing editing error maybe, I guess. But um in the definitions uh 154 uh 0003 the definition of a carport is an automobile shelter enclosed on not more than two sides. A carport is not a garage right remember that last part. So garage definition detached accessory building or portion of the principal building including a carport. No. Okay, we'll get stole a carport is that's attached to the garage. That is not a legal deal, is it? Well, they're saying two different things in saying the definitions are carport is not a garage. Of course, it's a carport or can be a carport. Something to look into. Well, can we write that? Yeah, it makes sense what you're saying because on one side you can look at and the other side's opposite. Now, you cannot have a separate shed to protect your car on your property either, though, right? Uh, are you talking a shed versus a carport? Yeah. Um, you don't like a uh aluminum shed from Menard's Home Depot, wherever, you know, now is that the legal piece on your property? So those could be allowed again through the permitting process and they have to be vetted and approved by the building official. They'll need details that they're going to withstand certain requirements to be able to do that. Okay. Um the difficulty for us is um you know if if something's there and uh we don't necessarily go through the inspection process on that through the building official and we're not made aware. I mean, we can track through the property and and look and see, but uh a lot of those um could be just added and and not properly inspected and then we could, you know, advise building official if needed as well to take a look at at those. Okay. Yeah. I would like to request that about every six months if you wouldn't mind coming in and sharing and keeping us up to date what's working, what's not working. I think that would be great because if if you see things that are changing and one like you mentioned the ordinance there and different things I does the council agree I I agree. Yeah. I you know Yeah. I just think it's just nice to keep up. We get there's as you can see there's a lot of people concerned 94 emails about the lawn this much for the for that. So I think it's something where it's very visible and we want to be able to keep an eye on say people I don't know people can come in and uh voice their opinion or if they have a statement to make uh whether they come to see you folks or some council people I you know yeah we welcome you know we have um members of the community that will come in directly and talk to us about properties next to them or something that's going on if they have questions. So anytime they're have any concerns, they're more than welcome to come into city hall and ask for us. Okay, Brian, I'd like to add that this would be a great topic for social media just to hit on where people can report what as we're changing seasons, that kind of stuff. Been in discussion with Ava on Yeah, you mentioned that to me the week. That'd be so we'll try to get some more out there. just keep it on there because I know you mentioned um Brian about maybe having like a questions of the month or something like that. We were able to do that. So yeah. All right. Well, it's our time is up. If there's nothing else, council. All right. Well, thank you. Appreciate everything. Thank you. Yep. And I ask for an adjournment. So move. Council member Schwar seconds. All those in favor say I. I. Give us five minutes. And uh we'll be back at 6:35.