all right good afternoon welcome to glendale city council workshop session of march 22 2022. with that meeting is called to order attendance roll call is not necessary all members are present and accounted for so we're going to go right into it ms bower would you introduce item number one please trans transportation development impact fee update good afternoon mayor members of the council here to provide our staff report on item number one will be led by our director of engineering don bessler thank you mr phelps mayor council members we are here today to give you a progress report on a project that we've started last fall and i'll go through the previous council history but again there's no decisions to be made today we don't need consensus simply giving you an update a progress report on where we're at i'm accompanied by ben griffin ben is the senior fiscal and economic analyst excuse me for tishler bice tishler bice is the firm that we've used to do our city-wide infrastructure improvement plans our development impact fee calculations for many years they're also very familiar with the state of arizona as well as they're renowned really across the country so they've been with us a long time they understand the importance and the nuances of the direction that council likes to set for the community and they're very knowledgeable about our systems they did the last update as well that we did started in 2018 you adopted it in 2019 just to remind you at a high level development impact reports and infrastructure improvement plans are for a 10-year horizon but by state legislation they must be updated at least every five years we've brought you we came to you last fall i believe it was september 14th asking for authorization to enter into an agreement with tishler bice so that we could do an update on the transportation portion of our development impact fee program if you recall back in 2018 at the time that we were looking at development impact v updates city-wide our entire western area that we now know new frontier was really just starting to emerge as a real center for economic growth and vitality and so we didn't have a really good feel for what the street system would look like at that time in that process of adopting the 2018 2019 update the council agreed to what we call the asterisk there was an asterisk for the area west of 115th avenue and the purpose was to help us gain time and understanding of what really was going to happen out there economically as you know there's been a number of annexations over the last three years there's been agreements that we've been working on with other jurisdictions including the county to trade street alignments and so forth and so on and our transportation staff now has a very good understanding along with our economic development staff what really has happened out there and what we can expect over the next five years for sure and that's why we asked for and you authorize this update again today is just a progress report you're not expected to vote on anything we're not setting up a vote simply just give you a check in i i should have said too that in the last three years there's been 16 million square feet mostly industrial that has been either constructed or is under constructing construction currently and in addition there's about 42 million square feet that either has been entitled or is in some level of advanced planning stages so a lot we know today we had no way of understanding three years ago um the date that i was referring to was september 14th the last time you saw this that was giving us authorization to enter an agreement with tishler bice to do this update and with that i'm going to let ben walk you through where we are and then i'll wrap up at the end all right mayor council members uh thanks for giving me the opportunity to walk you through this so for those of you who don't do impact fees every day i'll do a impact fee 101 uh just to refresh your memory from uh last time um we're gonna go through the land use assumptions uh we'll go through the infrastructure improvements plan which is the actual projects uh we'll look at a fee comparison and then i'll turn it back over to don to discuss the timeline uh so for development fees there are three things that we have to prove need uh proportionality and benefit so need you're going to continue to grow so you need additional uh you know infrastructure so those growth projections that's how we show that the need uh next up proportionality uh we wanna make sure that we vary the fees by the actual demand on your transportation network so we know that some uses generate more vehicle trips than others so we're going to vary the fee based on those demand factors and then benefit we want to make sure that you know it's a twofold thing where if a fee payer gives you money you have to build something so that's the first part of benefit they receive infrastructure for their money the second part is a geographic benefit we want to make sure that the fee payer lives geographically close to that improvement so that's why we have two separate zones an east and a west zone for your transportation impact fees um again need proportionality benefit those are you know the three most important things in an impact fee study in arizona you are required to adopt three separate documents uh the land use assumptions document that's essentially your existing and projected uh growth the infrastructure improvement plan that's going to be a list of projects um your levels of service that's basically what we build the fee from and then the last component is the development fee report which is the actual fees that is actually adopted after the land use assumptions and the iip so there are two development or two rounds of adoptions you'll hear me say level of service essentially what we're doing is making sure that future development doesn't pay for a higher level of service than existing development receives so you know in this example it's going to be you know lane miles per vehicle mile of travel you know if we were doing parks it would be you know acres per person um you know if it was police it might be you know vehicles per person uh but because we're focusing on transportation this time it's going to be lane miles um that we're using for this level of service um and then the last one's not applicable with this round of updates so i alluded to the the two rounds um in arizona you adopt your land use assumptions in your iip first once that is done then you start a separate adoption process for the actual development fees you will see the proposed fees today we think it's best as we're going through the land use assumptions in the iap adoption process that you know the actual development fees that you will be adopting you know in the future um because we don't want to get into a situation where you adopt the land use assumptions in the iip and then you say whoa those fees are too high or uh you know something like that where you know we have to start the adoption process all over again so we want to be as transparent as possible and that way you see everything from the beginning so we'll talk about eligible costs so if it's a facility or improvement required to serve new development you can include that in your development fees maintenance and repairs i like to say you know if it's rehab repair replacement if it starts with re it's it's ineligible um because you can't replace what is already there today with uh your impact fees it's just for additional capacity um which i touched on just then excess capacity in existing facilities so if you have oversized something you can have future development buy into that excess capacity and then you know if if you want to increase the level of service you can do that but you have to identify a separate funding mechanism so that might be you know grant funding or you know cares act something like that where you take this outside funding source to increase the level of service that way you can charge future development for you know fixing deficiency you always want to make sure that you're not charging them either more than existing development receives or to repair replace rehab anything so any questions on what is eligible or ineligible okay all right so there are three fee methodologies they they look at points in time so past is the cost recovery where you've oversized something and you want to have futures buy into that excess capacity present would be the incremental expansion methodology which is going to be important for our discussion today where you look at your existing level of service and you figure out what it costs to replicate that existing level of service and you base your fee on that and then a you know if we look to the future a plan based approach where you say okay we're here we need to be here how do we get there again we're using the incremental expansion methodology in both service areas so that's going to be the most important one for this discussion and then the the need for credits so there are three times we would look at credits so there's a site-specific credit um so for transportation that would be if a developer constructed um you know a street improvement that we were including in this study you wouldn't then charge them for their impact fees related to transportation they would need to get a credit for you know including something that's already in the iap debt service if you had debt service on you know an existing road or a planned road we would need to include some sort of credit so we're not charging the fee payer once through the impact fee and once through that debt service payment and then for any dedicated revenues um so property tax sales tax gas tax anything that is dedicated to a specific improvement uh so um you know i think uh you know pinal county has their their rta tax um which goes to very specific street improvements if you had a dedicated sales tax or something like that that was going to very specific improvements that we then included in this iip we would need to include a credit for that again we want to make sure we're not charging once through the impact fee and then another time through a separate revenue source so any questions about methodology before we move on to the land use assumptions all right so we'll start in east glendale so this is going to be everything east of 115th so for these development projections we actually used mag projections so maricopa association of governments every year they update their projections and so we are using those for the east so we're actually looking at the growth rates for 2020 through 2035. mayor i would like to ask a question about the mag projections okay do you want him to finish this first or it's up to you let him finish this part of it and then ask him this this might answer your question maybe so based on mag's projections uh they're saying you know about 4 400 additional homes in east glendale over the next 10 years and then for non-residential development they're projecting it's about 15 000 additional jobs which translates into about 6 million additional square feet of non-residential floor area and you're only doing the east side right now you'll get yeah the next flight will be the west okay thank you mayor um i dispute the use of mag projections and i let me take a few minutes to explain why the east glendale diff is everything east of 115th avenue so i sat down last night and i started to list projects that i know are about to be developed or aren't in the process of being developed in just my district alone and i'm not i will pass out the list to council now but i came up with an estimated 3977 multi-family units that will be built in the yucca district in the next few years if not already under construction now the census bureau as of 2019 uses a figure of 2.61 persons per household i got that directly from the census bureau site last night so if you take 3977 multifamily family units multiplied by 2.61 you come up with 10 379.97 for additional population in the yucca district alone and that's not within the next 10 years that's within the next few years when you go to multi-family i estimate that there will be an additional 1028 single family units in the yucca district alone at 0.61 persons that's an additional 2683.0 persons so i come up with a an estimated population growth in the yucca district in the next couple of years of 1363.05 which is above the mag projection so my question to you is why would you use the mag projection and not go directly to the city's planning department to at least verify my figures and that and that's only for my district that's not for the other districts i happen to know that in vice mayor aldama's district there's at least two major apartment complexes that are are planned will yield nearly 600 units so i feel that the figures that you are using to represent east glendale are too low can can i have a comment please of course mayor councilmember excuse me mayor council member let me start and then i'd like ben to jump in a couple things thank you great question so a few things one when you added up those numbers and came to i believe you said a little over 10 000. 13 063.05 i'm guessing when you said for the yucca district you met both the west area west of 150 now just east that's east of 15th avenue i didn't include allen ranch's sun hero pass nothing gotcha thank you for that clarification uh secondly um if something has already pulled building permits and is under construction they would not have been it they would not have been calculated so i'm not sure if what number of that 13 000 had already is in some level of construction if they were why would you not count because they would be subject to whatever the existing development impact fee is they would have already been subjected to that they're not built yet they're under construction why would they be subject to them i don't understand okay let's go through the chair sorry mayor uh and then mr phelps well i i i'm sorry i was just chatting to myself um mayor memphis council so any permit that's under construction has already paid the div fee it's paid in advance okay but there are those there are still projects that are planned approved and not yet started that are on this list i just don't think the mag numbers are are to the benefit of the city of glendale mayor again council member i thank you again for the question we'll go back and verify that we did include the planning department as well as the economic development department and all of these calculations it's it's science but it's a lot of art as well so we'll go back and look at that you you pose a good question if we see something that doesn't seem right we'll go back and double check the numbers again that's one of the reasons why we're doing a check-in when when you do that and again we don't have to vote on anything now but but i understand her question but find out when they got those numbers too because that could make a huge difference if these are one-year-old numbers that's a big difference from today thank you mayor we'll be happy to verify that so the next time you see that we will have ad answered that question for you good mayor good evening thank you i have a question or two um just to refresh my memory um and confirm that councilmember clark's right 115th avenue is the dividing line between east and west for diff and therefore revenue diff revenue collected west of 115th has to stay west of 115th right so therefore even if we were expanding say our library in that area to accommodate population and this is the closest library to them in glendale which would include allen ranches and zan harrow and the other um the other residential that we've approved out there even though this is the closest library to them it would be the one we would have to expand can we not use diff money library def money for that can we not even charge library death money if we can't so only these street fees are varied by um service area so all of the other so uh police fire uh library those are all assessed city-wide whereas streets are east or west parks as well thank you so for libraries yeah you could collect money west of 115th that that doesn't matter you can use it throughout the city but for streets if you collect it west of 115th it has to stay there east it has to stay there okay uh thank you thank you mayor learned something today good and it's not even you look like you have a question me no all right what else yeah thank you mayor we're going to roll okay um i i do want to go back to the math question so because we're using an incremental methodology which just says hey this is our existing level of service if you grow twice as fast as we project it doesn't change the fee amount it just means you collect more and you build more if you don't issue another permit still wouldn't change the fee so it's making sure that we get the existing level of service which all the the base year estimates have been run through the planning department so you know it may be that we you know increase how many housing units we're projecting in the east that won't change the fee it'll just change the fee revenue generated but very good question uh i i understand that it just it doesn't change the fee structure but i do believe in using accurate information accurate data and and i feel that when we rely upon mag to provide us with data it isn't necessarily accurate as it pertains to glendale thank you all right so any more questions about the east before we move on to the west all right so in the west we are not using mag data for that development services provided housing unit projections which they think will happen within the next 10 years for the non-residential component economic development actually provided the floor area projections for that so you know based on approved residential development for the west we're looking at about 1 500 additional housing units and for non-residential we're looking at about 16.2 million square feet of non-residential floor area with about 16 million of that being industrial development any questions in the west before you move on to the iip right right so we'll start with east glendale um so we're looking at street improvements we're going to use an incremental methodology and so based on the existing level of service and projections over the next 10 years we're projecting demand for about 11.6 lane miles and the associated cost with that is about 30.3 million dollars we get that cost based on these potential projects you know i want to point out that we're we have included projects but you you may get to a point where you say you know what we weren't expecting this development uh now we need you know to widen this road um really what we're doing with this list of projects is getting just a a proxy number to say on average it cost us you know x dollars per lane mile and so we're using you know these potential projects as that proxy but it doesn't lock you into building these um and it doesn't you know prevent you from building something that's not on this list again we're just trying to get an average cost per lane mile so when we say you need 11.6 lane miles we can associate a cost with that or an average cost mayor good thank you um i'm looking at this list and i can't tell if any of these pertain to developing a connection between the airport and westgate do any of them i mean someday we want some kind of connection other than glendale avenue between the airport and west gate that spans new river probably south of the airport is that on this list at all and has it been thought about at all thank you mayor council member clark so it's not specifically identified but our transportation staff clearly knows that that's something council has talked about strategically at different times i think probably the big takeaway for to your question today is this list is representational it's not exclusive okay so if the council decides that's important then we would try to work that into this program in some fashion well i would ask my fellow council members to hopefully consider a connection between the airport and westgate as important to the future growth of the airport so i would hope that they would concur that it is something that should be on this list councilmember clark you're referring to the lower river crossing that i've been advocating for for nine years i i would encourage everyone to make certain that you speak loud and clear i was watching as councilmember clark was speaking our monitor and when she said westgate two different times one time it came out with wes k and then the other one it came out something totally different so for the people that watches at home that are reading this they're not gonna have a clue what we're saying so please speak clearly into your microphones you had a question i did have a question uh thank you mayor on the the third project on the or you know proposed project on the list is uh maryland avenue to glen harbor boulevard that wouldn't that that that says new road that wouldn't be what they're referring to mayor council member i would ask our transportation staff to specifically answer that question i i don't know the exact answer and he's on his way up marion council new river road between maryland and glenn harper boulevard is the project in question that is going to be on the part of the east side of the airport development but it is not meant to cross the river if that explains thank you all right so we'll move on to the actual fee calculation so what you see on the left side um that growth cost that's the total cost of those projects from the previous slide so about 126 million dollars your existing diff balance in the east is about 18.4 million dollars so we need to subtract that out because it's unspent uh diff money so that leaves an adjusted cost of about 108 million dollars if we divide that by the projected lane miles from the previous slide that's 41.38 lane miles we get a cost of about 2.6 million per lane mile so we're applying that 2.6 million to your existing level of service which is just over one lane mile per 10 000 bmt and when you apply that 2.6 million you get a cost of 262. 262.38 cents per vmt which is the basis of the actual fee calculation on the right side where you see the proposed fees you see that each land use has a different average weekday bmt count so for a single family home that's you know 16.11 vehicle miles traveled on an average weekday so they would pay more than a multi-family unit which is about 11.5 what we're doing is just multiplying that cost per vmt by the vmt generated by that unit so in the east a single family home would pay 4235 under the proposed fees um the existing fees are three thousand six hundred and thirty five dollars mayor council member tom mcshop was it hey thank you mayor um i just had a thought um i'm curious i know i mean i know that there's at least in glendale there's no establishment and you're talking about streets but it's but the title is transportation um and i don't know um well we don't have any transit routes glendale doesn't out there in the new frontier we may be within a mile of an existing transit route in another city where we would be required to provide paratransit is that has that even been evaluated and would any of this funding be available for that because that those are federally mandated issues and if you're within a mile of an existing route then you're you're required so and we are going to have a single-family and multi-family residences out there and and so i'm just not sure whether and then is this money eligible for something like that because paratransit's quite expensive that's a great question so in arizona the enabling legislation defines the necessary public services that are allowed for inclusion in your infrastructure improvements plan and for street improvements it has to be a street improvement located within the right-of-way so generally your uh your transit improvements are going to be ineligible for impact fee funding it's actual capital investment only okay thank you good i have a a curious question thank you mayor on 83rd avenue on your list glendale avenue to northern avenue at northbound and southbound lane for lane miles of two miles so that presumes glendale avenue the northern is a mile long in each direction but yet for 99th avenue where you have glendale to northern and you have the same thing at a northbound and southbound lane the lane miles are 1.32 does that mean that there's six tenths of a mile between glendale avenue and northern at 99th why wouldn't it be the same two mile figure i could you explain that to me mayor council member um i'm going to let prob do that mayor in council 83rd avenue between glendale and northern um currently there's one lane in each direction uh existing and so the proposal is to add one new lane both northbound and southbound so that's why if i could interrupt i i understand that but you're using a mile as the distance measure between glendale avenue and northern at 83rd but you're not using a mile as the distance marker be at 99th avenue between glendale and northern that's my question why the difference marion council 99th avenue has proposed developments that are going to build some of the new lanes and so what we are identifying is what would be missing once it was done got it thank you thank you right any other questions in the east before we move on to the west all right so in the west we're also looking at the incremental expansion of street improvements so just maintain that existing level of service based on projected growth over the next 10 years that would require about 6.7 additional lane miles of street improvements at a cost of about 22.6 million dollars in the west we have a lot of potential projects uh so what you're seeing on slide 15 these would be you know potential intersection improvements uh so there are plenty of those and then on the next slide these are the actual uh arterial or collector improvements uh and so you see in the bottom right hand corner that the sum of all of these potential projects is 152.6 million dollars for about 45 additional lane miles again we're just trying to get these to come up with a weighted cost per lane mile all right hold up there for a minute go ahead thank you mayor um some of these i recognize as where for example north south east west intersection maybe the city may be responsible for the east west street and the county may be responsible for the northwest street and so if a new signal is required at some point because we've collected these fees then we're singularly responsible or is that a shared cost with the county uh mayor councilmember tomlichoff this list as it again while it's representational the amount of work that went into it by the transportation staff was very detailed so they looked at where they thought we had responsibility and not assigned it to a shared responsibility and you as you're aware there's this there's this document we're developing to trade off streets and right away with the county this is representational of what the city would be responsible for okay all right thank you so i guess my question though mayor if i could is then if there if there is a shared responsibility and we've collected fees can we use the fees for our share of the responsibility or okay they are it is eligible okay thank you yes and i'd like to point out that in the top right corner of that column it says growth cost um what you're not seeing is the hidden row that has the the total cost uh so we wanted to make sure that we're just focusing on growth related costs with this um and so you know if i go back a slide you know a lot of these intersection improvements are you know the growth costs anywhere from 25 to 75 percent uh so you're not seeing the full cost with this but again we want to make sure that in the development fees we're only including the growth related costs all right so just like we did in the east mayor thank you mayor on your west glendale street improvement cost factors which are mostly adding new signals do you have a total estimated total for that page as you do for the others and my second question is is on the west glendale street improvements cost factors we come up with a total of of a little in excess of 152 million dollars how how much are we anticipating in getting in diff fees that will cover that 152 million have staff done any work on that to know how much will actually be covered by diff fees uh mayor councilmember clark uh so we're projecting about 22.6 million dollars in uh impactful revenue over the next 10 years in the west uh so that's it correct there are a lot of transportation needs but growth can only you know handle their fair share so there will be you know a lot of non-impact fee eligible expenditures if you plan to build out the entire list of projects thank you okay mr phelps and just mayor members of council remember that the adoption of the diff fee is not authorization for the city to go out and to build these roads this was used to help us do the calculation uh to be representative of what we think the cost would be so you know i know we're looking individual projects here but this is not an approval for these projects it's a it's a basis for which we do our calculation to establish the fee any road project that we would move forward in subsequent budget years will come with an identified funding source which would include uh diff fees and other grant fees and other general fund and then we would highlight you know what portion of each project is being funded through diff so just want to make sure again this is designed to help us come up with a defensible calculation for our diffie not to necessarily represent a decision on the on the projects themselves mayor if i could ask a follow-up question good okay uh ben you just told us that we anticipate about 22 million in diff fees in the next 10 years knowing that even with proposed projects that may or may not happen we're just using this for a basis of wrapping our arms around some kind of calculation i understand that but seeing that all of these projects are in excess of a hundred million dollars doesn't that justify making the diff fee for streets larger than we're asking for question great question um i mean we could make the fee higher we don't want to you know prevent development from happening and we could set up a fee where you cover all of these projects but it's going to increase the level of service to a point where existing development will have to fund a portion of it so again we're getting to the issue of you know do we balance you know a reasonable fee with fewer projects or do we have a you know a higher fee but then the city is definitely on the hook for you know x million dollars worth of projects to increase that level of service in the west mayor couldn't we compromise and find something that doesn't disincentivize development but captures more of this i mean otherwise you're putting on the city on the hook in the future for what looks to be somewhere in the neighborhood of a hundred million dollars worth of eventual street improvements in the future um that's part of this process um where we you know have the work session we you know get feedback from council you know we can always look at adding additional projects um you know look at potential outside revenue sources uh to fund that difference um but yes you know there there is a possibility to adjust you know how many projects are included mayor i mean i feel like we're subsidizing many of these projects by not capturing more diff revenue towards streets and i don't know if that's fair to taxpayers thank you thank you mayor um just to move council member clark's train of thought a little farther down the road here if i'm understanding this chart and what you said says that in the western area next 10 years we're predicting perhaps 152 plus million dollars worth of street improvements but we only anticipate collecting 22 million dollars that's a delta of 130 million dollars where does that 130 million come from it's a great question turn that over to staff well mayor mayor councilmember turner i think again this list is representational as you go through this you have the ability to update this as frequently as you feel you need to and i think that's what your transportation staff has tried to do is to say at maximum build out and let's not forget the rate of growth out there has been something that nobody's really experienced anywhere in the country i know tishler bice would agree with that so they've just looked at what would a 10-year snapshot look like if everything stayed equal these are a lot of projects it doesn't mean that every one of these projects either a needs to be built and certainly would be built it's simply them looking at that entire grid and and different maybe than what you traditionally think of when you do an impactful update is this is the new frontier for a reason it's it's starting out kind of different um we're taking over two lane roads and and that sort of infrastructure that's out there so i think that you may be wrestling with this question for two or three more updates to be honest with you i think you'll have to see it see it and feel it as you do it um otherwise if you try to have a crystal ball and predict exactly what things will look like in 10 years and draw a hard line you run the risk of over estimating the amount of infrastructure that you would need and how you intend to charge to collect that and calculate again that the the grid the street grid out there isn't just used by new growth it's used by existing residents it's used by pass-through traffic pass-through traffic it's used by luke air force base as a pass-through so it's the it's the balance of trying to find all of that and i think as we get into a couple of more slides i think this issue that mr griffin brought up it becomes evident where do we sit in the valley with our impact fees for transportation mayor if i could continue um so you said it was a i think you said it was a good question but you didn't didn't provide an answer to it so if we have a shortfall and of course yes we may not do all of these streets in 10 years if the growth doesn't require it but then we'll have we won't have 22 million dollars in diff come in or if the growth comes in faster we'll have more diff money but we may have more roads that need to be done as well so this is a projection that's that is at some equilibrium though it's not balanced okay if one grows faster the other grows faster as you mentioned earlier but that still leaves us a delta a shortfall of 130 million dollars and i'm very concerned about that i've been for seven years i've been saying we have to be careful that the growth out there in our western area doesn't end up being a burden to the already existing part of glendale and i'm a little bit scared right now that we're hearing 130 million dollars is going to have to come up out of the rest of glendale and that means something else doesn't happen mayor council member i apologize if i didn't give enough muscle to that framework that i described i again i think you know what we're experiencing in the new frontier is is going to be something that we wrestle with for some time i don't think it would be correct to say i don't think it would be fair it's probably the better word i want to use to think that there's a shortfall again this is a representational list our traffic engineers our transportation planners will wrestle with this and this issue of level of service for a long time and you'll probably see updates to your traffic your transportation fee probably every two to three years for that reason because just the growth patterns out there are different it's also there's not a lot of residential which generates a lot of vehicle trips on a per unit basis so i i appreciate the question i don't think i can give you a good answer other than what i've given you which is i don't think i would characterize it as a shortfall but i understand how some people might feel that that's part of what's going on here i just don't i don't think that would be how we would intend to represent it to you may or may not be argumentative but perhaps there's a better word for it that you could share with us somebody let me see if i can maybe i mean i know we've had discussion about you know should we put the brakes on development and make sure that we don't burden the citizens and let's say essentially the east side of glendale with the growth remember that for example i just want to give you an example three years ago we were collecting about 3.7 million dollars a year in um in permit fees we're on pace to collect 45 million dollars in permit fees and very little that is coming from east glendale the vast majority so you have to kind of look at that as one of the numbers then when you look at things like construction sales tax our our revenues that we're collecting currently in our budget from when i got here in 2016 are almost 100 million dollars more and a big chunk of that is construction sales tax i think you would to be fair to growth you'd have to say there's a portion of that that's also should be used to kind of justify whether this was a good financial decision for the city then you also have and we every time we do a a project on an annexation we do a an economic study through applied economics and then they also provide the council with not only then sales tax generated diffies generated construction sales tax they look at job impact and the revenue spending in the jobs they look at things like property tax et cetera so i think if you if you tried to capture every part of new growth with a diff fee you would essentially get zero diffie so the only way you you have to find a balance of having a diffie that's that's competitive and we're going to go to some slides here in a second ben's going to walk you through where our proposed diff fees stack up with everybody else in the region this is a kind of a common issue that a diffie is not designed to cover a hundred percent of new development because there's other uh factors that i think that help you get to that point councilman turner about making sure that we don't burden our our established taxpayers with the the cost of new growth okay councilmember tom trump thank you mayor um so i have a couple questions um number one would and this is a for information only so when you come back would you be able to maybe separate these proposed street improvements uh and cost factors into some sort of a prioritized or because i know some of this stuff is way more of an immediate need and things that we're probably absolutely going to have to do because some of the roads were taking over out there county roads are basically just you know they don't have dirt they're they're just they're just county roads that um and they're old and they're i mean they're right now they're they're in need of and and even though we're gonna have fewer um residential back and forth to dry cleaners and you know coffee and all of that we're going to have heavy trucks out there that so and i don't know what the math works out to be like how many how many car trips do you have to take to equal heavy truck traffic i know that they're much more um damaging to roadways than just regular passenger vehicles so i think we need to take that into consideration even though there's going to be fewer trips but i'd like to know you know rather than just saying well we're not going to have to do all this i'd really like to understand it better is like which which which of these is a pipe dream and which are these these things things that we're really going to have to address so we have a better idea of what our actual costs are going to be that's number one number two is mayor if i could continue um are we is there statutory limits to what we can charge for for these fees and do they have to be based i mean whatever we adopt is equal in east and west or we're just talking about adopting fees for west i don't really understand statutorily how the fees even work so i'd like to for me i'd like to better understand how that works and then lastly even if we only have to do half of this we're still talking about a you know about a 70 million dollar and then you're probably going to have a reduced down number of div fees so i mean i think it's something that we should certainly i know we've talked about it before about that we'd want to make sure and manage you know growth is great and one of the best things about growth is it generates construction sales tax and fees and other things jobs all of that but i mean we have to be smart about it too so um i really like to understand better the the list of proposed projects and i'd really like to understand better what are our limits what can we and can't we do and how much can we charge so we can maybe more cover the costs um and there was one other thing i was going to ask about and i don't remember now what it was um i'm sorry i forgot my my last point that i wanted to make so that's it for now thank you okay thank you mayor i don't want to give the wrong impression that suddenly i'm against the new frontier or the growth that has happened in glendale i love what is happening in the new frontier um but i just want to understand and i and i understand this is a conceptual list some of these projects may make some of these may not and the numbers will vary but i would like to be assured that the construction fees or whatever additional revenues we're earning in addition to the diff fees will be applied to the streets problem out there so that in essence we are not charging existing taxpayers for that growth so i guess that's what i'm looking for is an assurance that that with all the fees that are being collected in that area we can apply those to the streets issue as well thank you mayor okay i remember what i forgot um essentially kind of piggybacking on councilmember clark is when we come back for this discussion maybe i would like to at least have a discussion about should we be doing some sort of set-aside i mean collecting all the construction sales tax and all these fees is great but if they go into the general fund budget and we spend the money on other things it still doesn't it doesn't address this issue that we're gonna at some point be like uh oh we we have a problem out here so should we at least have a discussion and i would like to have a discussion about maybe some percentage of what we're collecting out there and construction sales tax and other things out there in the new frontier that we're talking about setting some of that aside for future transportation needs so that while we have the money we bank it um for for a you know a rainy day all right and i'd just like to remind everybody that even though we're pretty much out of it now we've spent the last six seven years climbing out of a hole that was pretty deep so i understand by not wanting to burden our current taxpayers with new development but just saying that new development is what's gotten us out of the hole that we've been in so you know there's got to be some some balance there that we should all be looking at the the set aside i i don't know as though i completely understand exactly what you mean at this point but we do have contingencies we may have to grow that a little bit but certainly discussion in the future and and my concern is that we not be digging a deeper hole for the next council and for our residents that will be here in 10 years and and all of that it's just we may feel like we're digging our way out of a hole but we may not be looking at the at the whole picture and i'm concerned that we haven't been looking at this part of the picture and maybe we aren't really digging out of a hole thank you yeah well i am looking at the whole picture so mayor just you know there was a lot there we took notes and we'll make sure as we come back to you which is numerous times uh we'll cover that at the end that we try to address these things some of them were policy decisions that you'll have to wrestle with with your city manager others are more detailed things so and i just say the last thing before we move on the slide it's a slide 15 it shows a whole list of projects to get maybe the question of prioritization and we could take it further but if you look at those those are all signalization projects so as you all know having served on councils for a long time signals don't just pop up they have to be warranted so depending on the nature of the growth within the frontier that will generate where signalization is likely to be needed and occur and and it's the same thing for the streets if if the development occurs on one specific corridor out there then you're going to see that project start to rise to the top so great questions great conversation um i but i think it'd be fair to say that it is going to be a fluid issue for for us in a very welcome way with all of this prosperity that came with it you'll have a lot of good decisions you'll have to wrestle with so we'll move forward but we did take good notes all right all right so uh you know as we've been talking about this we have about 152.6 million dollars worth of potential projects or growth related costs just like we did in the east we need to subtract out the existing diff balance of just under a million dollars so we're saying you know 150 you know 1.7 million dollars worth of projects 45 lane miles so we're looking at a cost about 3.4 million per lane mile again we apply that to the existing level of service which is uh also just over one lane mile per 10 000 bmt uh so a single family home under the proposed fees would pay five thousand thirty seven dollars all right and so we'll move on to the fee comparisons on slide 18 this is the single family fee comparison so you can see the existing fee is the entire fee is about six thousand hundred forty dollars um you know you see that asterisk also on there um that's just to say that depending on if you're in east or west you may or may not pay the the street component the same um you know that it is noted at the bottom that this is you know a case-by-case basis and it's you know it's based on that the street in luffy uh so you know we're rolling those into one you know current fee but you do see the proposed fees for glendale west that the total uh impact fees would be seven thousand five hundred forty two dollars in the east it would be six thousand seven hundred forty dollars you also see where you fall in comparison to other valley cities then on the next slide we have multifamily so your multi-family pays about 4 500 per unit today in the east the proposed fee is about forty seven hundred dollars and it's um just under fifty three hundred dollars in the west for the non-residential comparisons you will see you know sort of a proxy development so this is assuming it's industrial warehouse development that is 500 000 square feet which is rather small for what you're seeing in the west now you know since you're seeing multi-million uh square foot facilities but just to give a comparison currently just under 500 000 to develop industrial uses in glendale the proposed fees go to about 510 000 in the east and about 579 000 in the west uh so you're staying you know pretty much towards the middle of the industrial fees um in the valley for commercial the system is 100 000 square feet so you're currently at 657 800 the proposed fees would take the east to about 727 000 and the west to 831 thousand good mayor um are are these negotiable for example if it's a uh industrial use that's going to generate sales tax it's a fulfillment center or something of that late nature are we allowed to negotiate these fees down on something because some of these are going to generate sales tax and a lot of them are not so do we have any flexibility with how we assess these fees mayor councilmember great question uh so in arizona the legislation does say that if you you are allowed to waive or reduce a fee but you have to make the impact fee fund whole so if you said hey you know what we're gonna we're not gonna charge you the full 700 000 we're going to charge you 500 000. then the city with another source of revenue would need to backfill that 200 000 that you waived i'm looking at the fee comparison for industrial and i've noticed on nearly every chart that you provided peoria which is our closest neighbor have higher fees on nearly everything than glendale does why would there be such disparity between peoria and glendale we're competing for the same types of projects and yet they're getting projects as well and their fees are higher so i know we don't want to make our fees too high because we don't want to disincentivize but golly gee when you see that competing neighbors are charging more i i think we're using fire sale prices can you talk a little bit more about why glendales are so low in comparison for example to peoria uh councilmember clark uh so you know if you look at some of the others you know commercial for example um you're much closer to peoria generally what you're going to see is you know the cities sort of on the edge are generally going to have higher fees because of you know the the increased infrastructure needs um you know we have adjusted the costs per lane mile so we are using you know a higher cost than we did last time with peoria you know we did not do their study so i can't speak to what's included in theirs it is sometimes hard to compare cities it's never an apples apples comparison um you know i can say that you know we have buckeye on there with a very low streak fee but that's because buckeye handles their signals and their arterial improvements outside of the impact fee program they're only looking at you know improving a couple exits off of i-10 so it really depends on what's included in the iip to really what what happens to the fee so i'm not sure why peoria their fee is higher but you know we are using updated costs in in glendale's study uh vice mayor mayor i'm not sure that answers my question but i understand that that you're trying it's just that when you look at two cities sitting side by side and their fees uh i'm just looking at industrial in west peoria it's 762 500 east peoria it's 647 thousand five hundred and then you look at glendale we're under six 000. we're 5 79 for west and east is 509. i understand incentivizing uh industrial office and commercial to come out to our new frontier but at what point are we just giving things away i mean i love the new frontier i want the new frontier to succeed beyond anyone's wildest imaginings but i also want us to be fair and and i'm not sure that using fire sale prices is is is a fair way to go it might slow down that west growth a little bit but they'll still come thank you mayor thank you mayor um to weigh in on that same sentiment uh i i i mean this proposal is a 19 increase so we are raising our fees significantly based on again that's an average taking the two proposed average versus what the old is and so i mean i'm not a pro increase in fees or taxes or anything like that i don't think any of us are but we are increasing it significantly a 90 percent raise is pretty significant and i think it's based on an analysis that the staff's gone through and has determined that that is where we need to be to help cover these costs that doesn't prevent us from two years down the road looking at it again and saying it's not quite cutting it i'm not comfortable raising it much more than that just because we want to be as high as the city next to us i i i think i'd be comfortable with with these proposals thank you thank you mayor uh did you use these proposed fees or the current fees in your analysis of the cost analysis that you presented us with that it would generate the 22 million and so what which fees did you use to do that analysis the proposed fees the proposed fees okay well i think that answers that question then we probably should be charging more if we're gonna at least if everything on that list is needs to be done and um i mean i hate to think about what that number would is like based on our current fees um i just think it's something to seriously consider at least that we're that the the math was done using the fees that have been proposed and it quite possibly leaves us with a shortfall so we need to figure out how we're going to address that at some point so thank you mayor just to address one comment staff nor would our consultant ever discount any of these categories based on our desire for that category so residential over office or commercial or whatever it strictly is just the growth projections the cost projections and apply those for vehicle miles traveled and that's how you do the math on it so we haven't discounted anything as well one of the things that the city manager asked us to do and what these tables represent shows a cpi adjustment as an increase over the five year period because you have to update it by statute at least every five years that's unusual that doesn't always happen in fact i'm not aware that it ever has happened but it certainly speaks to this issue of making sure that we're attempting to make sure that the costs that we're charging are reflective of the cost for the improvement and i i'm gonna actually agree with councilmember melner i'm not comfortable raising fees on anything but if staff's done the research and this is what they're advising us to potentially someday soon approving i can i can certainly go along with that knowing that this council has the opportunity every year to make changes and if we see five years from now that this isn't quite getting us where we need to go we can always bump it up i would be terrified to raise it up so high today anticipating that in 10 years we're going to have all these things when in fact if we have a major downfall with our economy that we're only expiring x we're creating problems more so than we need to so i i would be i'm not going to say comfortable going along with staff's recommendation but i think it's the probably the most intelligent thing that we could do at this point knowing that we have the opportunity in the future to bump this up every year if we need to or or lower if we if we are able to amer thank you mayor actually it was mr phelps oh i'm sorry go ahead mr phelps thank you uh mayor members of council uh just a couple things and one uh got a uh was just notified uh peoria currently does not have any industrial projects underway um so that what i think would be closer to look at then is who do we compete on industrial if you look at the surprise number and you look at goodyear uh we're significantly higher than uh than surprise and in competitive about the same area with goodyear so i think that's a the peoria they just haven't got industrial projects going on they do have commercial uh but they're really more around the residential so you'd want to compare those i think the thing just as a reminder i know you're looking at the 152 million dollars for the west i want to draw your attention back to the east number it's 126 million in the east side and so that is just if you if you envision everything ever needing to be built out and and signals put almost you know almost every kind of key areas that's how we got to the 126 million but if we tried to use diff fees to pay for the 126 million we would probably put an absolute stop on any new rental building for example or multi-family in the east side so i think it's the number is big but it's a it's it's not a 10-year number it could be a 20 or a 30-year number that you're looking at to get to there but as as the mayor said i think this is something that you continually look at you adjust your fees we have been behind on raising our fees and we are proposing that you build an escalator into there to keep it competitive but i i wanted to address the peoria because they aren't they currently do not have any industrial projects underway is it is it not true glenn goodyear is probably the closest with business development to the city of glendale in the west valley we compete most with goodyear and and surprise and then a little bit avondale's got some projects but those along the loop 303 would be our two uh that we're most in competition okay you're next and then you're next thank you mayor um i think i heard you say and i think i heard the city manager say that there's going to be a cost of living adjustment to these fees every year because inflation is is just rampant right now which means that when you develop these fees you were using older numbers for materials and and we know that in the past year inflation has kicked up things by seven eight ten percent so i would hope that you would come back to us for at least a review on a yearly basis and show us how you have incorporated a new cip into this and and it was my understanding he said you didn't want any decisions on anything right now but i get the feeling that after today um you're going to move ahead and by this fall we will have adopted these fees as as you are presenting them to us unless you plan on coming back to another workshop and having adjusted any of these figures thank you mayor mayor actually mr obama's next thank you mayor um just a question so i'm not sure that we want to be the highest in in the valley the question is assuming that the economy continues the way it is and we are the highest that could be beneficial to us but what if the economy starts to tank down and starts to tank really fast then do are we encouraging developers to leave the city so it doesn't seem to me that that would be beneficial does that make sense i totally understand yeah we all do so uh mayor vice mayor i know that ben would agree with this statement that as you do impact fees broadly and generically you always have to find what you feel comfortable with as a local legislative body where you fit in the marketplace where your competition lies where's that line between economic prosperity and losing out on opportunities for your community so it's always a bit of that and what i've liked about helping you with the impact fee studies that you've done in glendale since i've been here as the council through this dialogue always tries to land on a place that's of solid footing because the reason that the state ratcheted up the regulatory rules around impact fees is because some communities weren't on sound footing they didn't have good data behind the decisions they made or they didn't have a way to defend the waiving of fees or the crediting of fees and you guys have always been very solid at least in my time here on that and and i think it's a good thing and so yes so mayor if i could just jump in i think this is an important thing to get our arms around so this is very much in the utility world when you're protecting rate payers you you don't set a you don't set your utility rate based on what your next door neighbor is providing that service for you you look at your expenses you look at your costs you look at your plan capital and then you derive a utility rate now that doesn't keep a city from going lower than that cost if you want us to plan it in theory with general fund but you can't arbitrarily raise it higher just because the market is higher it's designed to have a fairness issue so then back to councilmember clark you were saying well we're going to be going out to the you know to the required public process on this what we would have to do really what we've done in the plan that uh that tischler bias has put together is they base their assumptions and so you know based on what we think growth's going to be that then dictates how much your lane miles are going to be then we come up with our average cost per lane mile these aren't random numbers and and we really we shouldn't be looking at those numbers as compared to what gilbert pays we have we can't just randomly set our diff fee we have to do it just build our model and the model has to be defensible which is why we use a consultant like tishler bice because they do this a lot so we can if you if you're concerned that we our assumptions are too little then we can go back and we can reprogram in and come back i guess at a later time and delay uh adjusting our our fees but it's not we can't just pick a number out on this chart and say well let's be closer to uh to peoria i think we need to be justifiable to the community and just as a reminder we have a lot of projects that you know that will be paying diff fees we feel we have to really move forward relatively quickly because our our streets and lua fee is somewhat unique uh to say the least uh in the area we have exposure for that and so i think the quicker we can get to a fee that the council is comfortable with uh is advantageous for on a number of fronts mayor thank you then i would contend that there's no utility to putting in charts that compare glendale to any other city if we if we're stand alone and envisioning this as what's best for glendale then why do we need to see what other cities are charging it makes no sense to me anyhow i wasn't necessarily advocating that we go higher or meet peoria's fees but i was pointing out that as our closest neighbor they have fees that we're higher but that doesn't matter because we don't compare ourselves to other cities so my whole point was irrelevant to begin with thank you mayor mayor thank you mayor peoria doesn't have industrial projects according to mr phelps but they do have a whole lot of single-family and multi-family happening in peoria also so i mean we're comparing all of these to we're not just talking about industrial fees we're talking about in general um how the fees are assessed so um and i don't know you know how do you account for inflation here which is you know i mean and and the world that we're living in right now is a real world issue and by the time we establish these fees we we i mean we could be losing ground between now and when when we roll these fees out so because our costs are going up the cost of all the all the builders and i would i would contend that the west area there's a lot of reasons for what's happening out there primarily it's the location and the economy those are the two real driving factors out there and that's not going to change so you know with access to rail um and i mean the the development the economic boom has happened out there and it's just basically going north i mean that's you know it's freeway frontage it's freeway access it's rail access there's a lot of reasons why this industrial um and and arizona generally speaking is a very friendly state um glendale is a business friendly city so there's a lot of other things that play here that i don't think at least in my opinion we need to be completely worried i mean we definitely want to be competitive um but we also obviously you know we are aware that if we're not careful in how we plan we're going to end up with a pr maybe we're not going to end up with the problem maybe nobody here is going to have to deal with this but it doesn't mean that we still shouldn't be planning and making the best decisions that we can now so that in 10 years we don't have a problem nobody that made some of the decisions that got the city where it was in 2010 11 12 13 14 thought that things were going to go the way they did i mean we just can't predict what's going to happen but i i don't know um i mean can you put an inflation adjustment build it into your rate and say we're going to readjust these rates annually based on inflation to make sure that we're keeping up with our costs to deliver these things i don't know if that's even something we can do so mayor and council member how we've baked in an escalator is we took the cost of all of those projects that you saw in those previous lists and we took the 2022 costs that we are seeing today so we've updated them already for this last year of pretty significant inflation and then we added year two three four and five a two and a half percent increase compounding over each of those years and then we stopped because we knew you'd be we didn't continue an escalator out because we knew you would be looking at this thing by by requiring legislative requirement at least by then so that's why this number is 152 at you know if had we not done that i think it'd been probably closer to 130 something so we've done it in that way that way that is a way you can do it i don't know that you can adopt an ordinance that allows it to automatically change by cpi annually i'm not sure about that yeah with that said i i like the idea of planning it but i like the idea of coming back to council every year more so for approval absolutely so i think both of those can be accomplished at the same time i guess my way of looking at it is i'd rather this happens sooner than later uh a few months may not sound like much but a few months ends up being millions of dollars and mayor as as the as we're about ready to get to the last slide it is about a hundred or 277 day process by legislation to adopt this if it is a less five percent or less a modification i believe you can do that in a much shorter amount of time without having to go through the entire study every time you want to do that so i think that plays into the conversation that you want to have look at this annually as part of either your budget process or or some other process to see where you're at balance that with whatever your economic forecasts are looking like and really have a good picture you want to do your last flight we'd love to thank you mayor council members thank you for all of the questions and the comments so today again it was simply an update to give you a progress uh a report on where we are our and the reason we really wanted to do that is to get this exact kind of feedback but also we intend to go out and do stakeholder outreach with the multi-family association the homebuilders association any number of economic development interests that are valley-wide because they're paying very close attention to the fact i got an email sunday night from one of them saying we want to be reached out to so they're going to have their opinions about it but what we didn't want to have happen is that we're out there meeting with them talking about this and you haven't really seen it for months except for the last time we came to you so we wanted to make sure we did a check in with you we bring forward whatever issues and concerns you have as i said we've made good notes we can make modifications or at least come back to you with more information before you have to as as ben said it's a two-step process you go through a public notification process and an adoption process for the land use assumptions and the infrastructure improvement plan to circle back with our sister department of transportation to really have them look at that list of projects and see what that means over a five to ten year cycle and see where that really leaves us and uh so all we wanted to do is that is that update for you mayor so somewhere in between here um one of these dates you're going to put in another cut come back to council i don't see it on the list but that is something that's going to happen so uh mayor councilmember tomlichoff without having the calendar in front of me my belief is is that april 29th is either a workshop or a regular session and we will have an item with you that we can go back through this the land use assumptions and the iep maybe not in the depth that we did today but whatever depth you need to talk about here's where we're at with the proposed land use assumptions in iip mayor if i could um i'd like to i'd like to if possible have you at least where you've had some stakeholder outreach too so we can get an idea of what the feedback is when you come back to us thank you mayor thank you um i think councilmember malnar was exactly right when he said that none of us up here would look forward to increasing freeze or raising taxes we don't but i don't think any of us up here want to set a future council up for having to do that just to be able to meet the needs of the city that they inherit we have to be thinking ahead on this and council members clark's right that you know in reality it doesn't matter what other cities are charging we have to justify what we're charging and if we need to charge more we need to think about that and she mentioned earlier about you know subsidizing growth out in the front western frontier or the new frontier and it's like we've always been told we're not subsidizing it out there but i'm beginning to get the feeling today that you know it it's beginning to appear as if we are and if we're not setting aside revenues that are coming in now to meet the future needs of that area then i don't know how we're how we're not so um i would much rather charge the people who were the enterprises coming in that are going to create the demand for this improvement i'd rather charge them the fees and start doing it as soon as possible as much as we can than to lay it off on our residents down the road that would be very short-sighted of us and i'm glad to see that several of the council members are seem to be thinking the same way thank you is that it yeah okay thank you miss bower would you introduce item to council item of special interest transit asset advertising mayor members of council here to provide staff report on this item is kevin link he's our transit administrator [Applause] good afternoon mayor wise and honorable council members my name is shahid abbas director of transportation and today with me is mr kevin link transit administrator i will need you to pull the microphone closer or your there you go is it better no i think so thank you thank you mr apples uh good afternoon mayor and council so i'm here today to provide uh some information on the rfi that you guys approved us putting out last august when when we came to last time so just a quick recap so we came in front of you on in last august asking for consensus to issue an rfi out to the industry within the local area to get their feedback on what glendale advertising program could look like we sent it out to 11 advertising firms we asked for them back in november due to a couple of firms asking for extension we extended it to december 10th and we received two responses back so today i want to go over a little bit about what we heard back from the industry from the two responses i we're looking for to determine whether or not the city should move forward with the transit advertising program and then if that is the direction which way how do we want to do it so as we discussed back in august there are four different types of media categories of advertising within the transit industry static is the most most common those are the ones you'll see along the bus stops the kiosk and at the shelters themselves there they provide the greatest amount of exposure and are mainly found on arterials this form of advertising was recommended from the rfi that we from the information we received back from the rfi and they said that they would recommend using general marketing location based advertising based on the demographics and the land use along each particular corridor that is chosen so just refresh everybody's memory these are a couple of examples of what i'm talking about as far as static on the left is a kiosk and mesa on the right is a kiosk in chandler a couple more mesa on the left and the city of chandler is on the right different variations and different styles of kiosks then two more one in peoria on the left and a bench a bus advertising bench in phoenix on the right so the second category is advertising on buses this is very popular due to the exposure that the buses receive along their regional routes and and the revenue that it generates the recommendation we got from the rfi said that in the rfi we asked about the feasibility of advertising on our paratransit fleet our dollar ride fleet and our gust fleet uh it was recommended at the time uh to ver for go advertising on our smaller buses on the divide fleet and if the city chooses to move forward with it to advertise on our gus buses only because of the the larger gust buses of which we currently only have two in our fleet but that was the recommendation we received from the rfi uh just a couple examples of a full wrap both of these are phoenix buses full wrap on the left for partial wrap on the right and then this is our newest gus bus with the new logo and color scheme obviously if we decide to move forward advertising on this we'll cover up the brand and the color scheme so it's something to consider and there's also another thing to consider is wear and tear on the paint as we unwrap it we wrap it we unwrap it so it's just another consideration you want to consider before we move forward with advertising on the buses next category is digital and led advertising the feedback we've received is that there is a potential market for this type of advertising but it's very expensive so it's not very popular at bus stops primarily due like i said to the infrastructure an example is that it costs about 264 thousand dollars to run a half mile of fiber based on about a hundred foot per mile or a hundred hundred dollars per foot so most of our intersections have fiber but not all so if we were to put some types of digital advertising at a location that doesn't have fiber or at a corner that doesn't have fiber we would have to run the fiber and that can get very expensive audio the feedback we've received is that there's not a strong market for audio advertising either at shelters or on buses mainly because it's just not a long enough um the passengers don't have a long enough exposure to them yet either place either on the bus or at the bus stop and they just don't think it's the best utilization of advertising dollars just because it's hard and it's harder to sell advertising for those types of for that type of advertising at those locations some more feedback we received the highest potential our revenue potential lies on the larger bus buses there's a limited market for ticker tape advertising i don't know if you've seen them on buses that would be a ticker tape across the front or at but or at shelters also there's no minimum size requirements for a kiosk it's all based on what the city wants and what they think they can sell and then they rotate the ads out at the locations based on the contracts they have with the retail establishment some more feedback we've received obviously it's desirable for the kiosk to be seen by motorists as well as pedestrians both sides they look at traffic counts they look at pedestrian counts they look at the land uses around you know each corridor that that they're considering selling advertising at and then as a general rule uh advertising agencies prefer not to do the maintenance at the stops that has advertising they'd rather the city take care of that although some will do it if that was you know our option or what we wanted to do so so the if the direction is to move forward we've got a couple of options we can either we can prepare and release our own rfp and issue a contract our own contract based on the responses we get back or we can piggyback off an existing contract in the valley there's three three cities you see them on your screen that are available to us phoenix is not available they do not have cooperative language in their contract so these would be the three that we could piggyback with and then of course whichever one we decide we would be subject to the terms and conditions of that contract i presented this slide back in august and i just wanted to show again what we you know how the other cities program is run you can see here between the four cities i currently advertise and they're all static except for phoenix phoenix does have bus advertising obviously but the other three cities are all static so this is what they generally receive in revenue per year at first glance it appears that mesa's deal is not very city friendly but there's a reason for that so within the first two years of their contract the vendor the advertising agency bought and put out 50 shelters and 50 benches within the first two years in mesa so then over the course of the 10 years they have to amortize those costs and that reduces mesa's revenue but at the end of the 10 years mesa will own those assets and they'll become city property so that's why their numbers are a little bit lower um there's the two bids or the two proposals now proposals the two uh we got back they didn't really mention revenue the amount of revenue glendale could expect there are some reasons for that there are some factors number of shelters we want to advertise at where at what kind of what what is glendale going to allow to advertise so they they really wouldn't give me a number okay glendale you could expect to receive 50 000 here because it's all based on a bunch of factors naturally whoever we bring on board will come in they'll do an analysis they'll tell us the corridors they think has the best potential and will go from there just for a reference like chandler so years one through five they were guaranteed in their contract fifty dollars per kiosk or twenty three percent of gross sales whichever is a higher mesa um twenty five thousand minimum per year with eight percent and years one through seven and then fifteen percent of years eight through ten so that's that's generally what we would probably be looking at so staff's recommendation is to go ahead and implement the stat or the bus advertising program the bus stop advertising program rather with these with these components implement the static forego advertising on buses for now table the digital advertising just due to the infrastructure costs piggyback on an existing regional contract between those three cities and then adopt the city of phoenix advertising standards which all four cities currently use i put this map in there to show you that this is a map of the fixed route service in glendale these are the quarters so in our discussions with a couple of agencies that we we spoke with over the course of this project the three corridors that came up were bell road obviously do the land use and the traffic volume 59th avenue same reasons and then glendale avenue especially out towards the westgate area that doesn't mean that we can't advertise along any of these other corridors or that we won't it's just with the current land use and the traffic volume those were the three recommended at least from the beginning that's what they would look at of course when we get somebody on board like i said they'll do an analysis and tell us what the traffic counts are what the land uses proposed or what they where the land use lends itself to let me ask you a question yes sir camelback road is shared with phoenix who who is that it's a good question mayor um mayor council so the bus stops on the north side of camo back along glendale so we're responsible for all the bus stops on the north side of camelback on the westbound side so if we put a kiosk on the westbound side it would be glendale okay well i know it's very heavy traffic because i was there yes sir but we couldn't put one on the south side because phoenix owns those bus stops so um but it would be ours it would be glendale's responsibility and we would we would uh reap the benefits of the revenue yeah i think you definitely need to look at camelback oh i'm sure they will yes sir that that's one of the roads i think of very quickly that does have heavy bus traffic on it um excuse me this is a photoshop run rendering of what it could look like this is one of our current stops 67 southbound just south of myrtle and then another one at glendale eastbound just east of 67th avenue so we took this information to see toxism transportation oversight commission commission last month in february they concurred with our recommendation to move forward as presented they with the caveat that staff monitor the program and ensure that it stays within the scope and that the revenues are what the revenues will be listed in the contract so um they were very positive about it as long as we keep a handle on the on the program and and keep an eye on it and make sure it's administered the way it's written in the contract mayor yeah go ahead i think you're going to say what i was thinking good i don't know i'm not that good i do have a two questions what are the you list the number of bus stops in four cities and you don't list the number of bus stops in glendale what is the number in glendale mayor councilman or clark you're talking about the total number yes sir we have 595 bus stops in glendale 189 shelters at those stops so i am guessing that you know if we move forward within the first year or two we would probably be looking somewhere between 50 and 100 bus stops or shelter or advertising at locations depending on the analysis and the labor workforce and everything that's had an effect on everything but that's what i would assume the first year or two 50 to 100 and then we would see how it goes and how the sales go from there okay second question mayor if i could continue um you list chandler with number of bus stops to 60 mesa 100 peoria 38 phoenix 1100 and we're going to discount phoenix because there's no cooperative piggy backing so i'm not sure phoenix is rubble into the relevant to the discussion but do these numbers represent the total number of bus stops in chandler mesa and peoria or just the bus stops that have been used for static display mayor councilmember clark it's the latter these are just the number of stops that these cities advertise at it's not the total number of stops in each city thank you yes ma'am okay she didn't talk about what i was thinking she would say mesa did something that i found interesting we have areas that every one of them here has talked about where we need more bus stops and and i do like i do like that format where mesa worked out a deal where they built them they maintain them they advertise on them and then after eight years they own them i i would like us to look at that type of model we have a lot of places where we truly need bus stop we have bus stops but we don't have bus enclosures or bus shelters mayor council um yes i i agree um in glendale we have most of all the corners of all the arterials covered as far as shelters go on all four legs so in everybody in the advertising world those are where they make their money selling at the arterial to arterial that doesn't mean that you can't advertise on a mid block stop you know it doesn't mean that you can't advertise at the quarter mile stop and certainly we have some of those stops that could use to be covered i agree with you that's something that we would look at and we can go down that road where we have them put out additional shelters depending on if they think they can sell advertising we could also look at you know upgrading our shelters maybe we switch out some of our shelters with the newer version from the advertising agency we can certainly look at that yeah well if we're not putting money out and we're still getting money back and getting product and the comfort uh in service for our customers i think that's what we should be doing yes sir uh along those same lines i just wanted to get clarification uh say we just go with a a flat contract that provides revenue to the city uh and i think we had a discussion but i want to have you remind us where does that revenue go is it strictly going to go back into our stop bus stop uh mayor councilmember malnar it's it's a little tricky if if we were to advertise on our buses the revenue has to stay in transit because those are federally bought assets the shelters that we have out a number of them were bought with federal money years ago they have long since been paid off so they're basically city assets so the revenue that we generate off the sales at bus stops and it shall it could go either way i mean they could go back in the general fund all four cities use their revenue to go back into their transit program to offset some costs that's something that you know we could there's a couple things we could do with that revenue if i may mirror my recommendation is that we because we've talked about improving our bus stops that this money all goes back into improving our bus stops that's what i would like to see if we're going to go this route mayor councilmember melnar thank you mayor thank you mayor um i'm curious why um what was the reason given for the recommendation to not move forward with advertising on buses and i'm asking this because valley metro is moving forward with advertising on buses and phoenix also advertises on buses and those buses come in and out of glendale and by the average person are not identifiable as who the bus belongs to so i mean we have buses with advertising on them already circulating in glendale so what was the reason given for not doing that mayor councilmember thomas job two-fold um currently there's no advertising in the region on circulators so the circulators are basically within a neighborhood they don't go out of that neighborhood they don't have as much exposure as the valley metro routes that run from one end of the valley to the other north south east west as far as the the dollar ride vehicles again no no example of that anywhere in the reason nobody advertises on their dollar ride fleet a lot of it is due to the smaller buses the space is just not large enough to sell advertising on the smaller 22 foot cutaways as opposed to the 35 and 60 foot buses that valley metro uses it's certainly something we can do there you know there's no law against that we could look at doing that they just recommended that because they they because there's no example of it anywhere in the region on the smaller fleet on the dial ride they didn't know if they would be able to sell it or not but it's on the gus fleet you know the two big buses especially it's just not as much exposure as the valley metro routes across multiple jurisdictions and there's just more eyes on those buses than there would be in a neighborhood circulator mayor if i could one of the things i've seen not here but in other places um especially like in places where like that you have a circulator like an um a ski ski where you can you know go to multiple different places to with your skis you just get in the bus and you can ski for a few hours here then you get on the bus and go ski for it so i don't ski anymore but they have they did advertising on the back and they were basically like our what we use for dial-a-ride that style of bus that holds i don't know maybe 20 or 30 people it's not a gigantic bus but i don't see anybody using the back of the bus literally when you're behind the bus that you know you can it's a good opportunity for advertising and i don't know if we've investigated that i understand probably and i know i saw you show the picture of the gus that the city's already spent money to wrap it that would be you know i mean i guess we don't want to cover up what the city already spent money on to wrap it but there's other opportunities for other types of advertising on the on those smaller buses where you um you know you can just use the back of the bus when you're behind a bus driving you've got a long time to be able to look at their advertising so um i don't know i just don't know whether that conversation's ever happened and maybe people don't know whether who the bus belongs to there's you know and we're moving it's getting more and more expensive to provide transit um and i mean i think we should take advantage of every opportunity to try to offset some of the costs because it's incredibly i mean it's important to our residents and i'm absolutely supportive of doing it but it's becoming more and more expensive to provide those services for people mayor councilman truman chop yes ma'am and i appreciate the comments um that's certainly something if we move forward and we bring an agency on board we can certainly have those discussions to see if they think that's viable and and would be worth our time and in our effort and our money absolutely and then one question mayor do they offer for example on our on our own fleet our our circulator augusta bus and and dial-a-ride do are you able to offer like a discounted advertising rate for glendale businesses are we allowed to do that mayor councilman trumpchop so the way it works in the other cities is um like for example at shelters so at any one time in the region there's probably 20 percent of the shelters are vacant advertising vacancy so and most i know mesa does and i know chandler does i think peoria does too they have written in their contract where they are they have they get to advertise at 10 of the available locations for city events um whether it be you know whatever a city event that's going on downtown or out of westgate and that's something we can certainly write into our contract and we wouldn't even have to write it in if we piggyback because it's already there but the 20 when they're vacant they have the understanding that they can they can advertise what they want those locations if there's not if it's not available or if it is available and nobody else is advertising there so that's certainly within the parameters of of all the contracts okay thank you yeah a quick question i'm going to go over here uh do we have any agreement with the other cities that have buses that come through glendale where we're getting some of that advertising once they're in glendale mayor council that that's correct so um the city of phoenix provides all of our fixed route service and every year i bring the we bring the amendment forward in june and it is built in there that based on the amount of revenue miles in glendale we get a cut of what they make so prior pre-pandemic we were making about we were getting back about 43 000 a year from the at advertising revenue on the phoenix buses we don't get cash it just offsets my cost for the contract for the service so it's just a reduction in my cost for service i don't we don't get a check but we do get we do get a percentage of that revenue that that is generated from those buses in glendale yes sir okay we had a question down here yes thank you um i do support the mayor's comments with regard to mesa and the opportunity to add more bus stops i think that's a great idea because i've been complaining for years that there are stops that have nothing i also like and support councilmember malnar's suggestion about dedicating whatever revenues are collected toward the development of or adding new bus stops or improving bus stops that we already have i think that's a great idea i support councilmember tomachoff's idea of perhaps utilizing the back of the bus that's an untapped little gold mine there that that we should be considering i would like you to come back and tell us definitively the number of shelters that could be used immediately uh you said there were 595 total stops and 189 shelters but then you referred to intersections exclusively so i would like to know what are we talking about in terms of numbers of actual use of bus stops thank you mayor mayor thank you looking at the graph the comparisons on slide 16 and you mentioned that some of the cities do their own maintenance and others don't so chandler for instance doesn't do their maintenance but mesa peoria and phoenix do that annual revenue number at the bottom for those cities net that's net that's after they've backed out the cost of maintenance yes sir after they paid the cost for the maintaining of their stops thank you i have a similar question not to the maintenance but um vandalism so that's that happens quite a bit is it costs or data to that vice mayor obama council that is always an ongoing issue regardless of which firm we would go with or which contract the the advertising agency is always responsible for the vandalism on their property on their kiosk so they would maintain that if a glass is broken they repair it it's not a city's cost it may reduce our revenue a little bit but that would have to be worked out in the contract but as far as vandalism to the kiosk the agency would be responsible for maintaining those fixing them if they're lit they would need to maintain the lighting in them whether it was solar or hardwired so they would do all that we have the option depending on which contract we go with we could ask that ad agency to maintain all 595 stops like i mentioned earlier most agencies don't want to do that they'll maintain their furniture and their their assets but they would prefer the city to be responsible for trash and power washing so but as far as vandalism on the kiosk and stuff yes sir they would take care of that okay any other questions by the council want to finish up um vice mayor that that concludes my presentation so [Music] looking for feedback consensus to move forward um if the consensus has moved forward and everybody is okay with piggybacking we'll do a deep dive into all three contracts and see what we think is the better deal or like i said we can put our own rfp together and and go out on the street um we're recommending piggyback just in the interest of time get this thing up and running a little bit quicker so that's the consensus then obviously it will require a lincoln agreement and we will come back to council to approve the lincoln agreement once we're ready to go all right do we have consensus on uh staff's recommendation yes yep you have consensus you're good thank you vice mayor yes sir miss bowers we introduce item number three please presentation on the city's grants policy thank you vice mayor members of the council here provide staff report on item number three uh will be lizet camacho our director of budget and finance good afternoon vice mayor members of the council in today's presentation we will provide information on the grants application and administration process of the city of glendale we'll go over proposed policy revisions and we'll open it up for console feedback and questions to my right is miss kristen cray she's our grants program administrator and i'll turn over the presentation to her now thank you ms camacho today we're going to talk about the financial administrative policy number six which is the grant application administration policy this policy is strictly an administrative policy the last revision occurred in 2014. it establishes the requirements for applying accepting for our competitive federal grants our state grants county grants tribal private foundation and corporation grants it also identifies the roles and responsibilities of the grants office located in finance and budget and the grants project managers it does not apply to our community development block grants or our hud grants which are considered to be formula grants and it doesn't apply to any direct corporate gifts or donations made to the city or individual departments and again this is an administrative policy and the last revision did occur in 2014. we have a very specific process for how we apply for grants in the city because we want to advance city council's goals and objectives when we are applying for grounds that's very critical and we also want to support projects and programs that are obviously consistent with the mission and priorities of our city so grant applications are reviewed and approved by the grants program manager and that's me in this case prior to submission of the actual application to the funding agencies that way we ensure that grants are aligned with our strategies and our financial sound for the long term grant awards are currently all approved by you the city council as the administrative requirement in 2010 2014 was deemed to be a city council resolution but grants in general are not required by the city charter or the city code to be approved by resolution so we are going to propose some administrative changes which will allow for grants to be processed in a different different manner in the following years first i wanted to talk a little bit about partnerships for this year um fiscal year we've we've done some new things that we haven't done in the past one is we applied for aps community grants and we were able to secure 8 000 in funding which may seem small but in reality these are things that we probably wouldn't otherwise fund and these grants do tend to be on the smaller side we received a support for community services to initiate the the christmas project program that um adopt a family program and in addition to that environmental resource resources received financing for environmental resource kits to be distributed throughout neighborhoods and through special events we also continue to seek tribal grants when applicable but one of the things that i've really encouraged is our local nonprofit organizations to take advantage of these partnerships wherein we as a city sponsor their application this year uh sleep in heavenly peace who provides beds for those that don't have beds in our community was awarded ten thousand dollars and our community service group partnered with them to make that happen the other thing we're doing this year is um thanks to the planning department historic preservation grants came back some of you that were around many years ago may remember these the last time we actually even applied for one was 2008 there hasn't been funding from the state since then so in order for agencies to apply they must have a sponsor in a sense the city becomes the applicant for these grants so we're currently in the process of moving forward with that historic preservation grant and again the first one since 2008. so those are some of the new things we're doing some of you council members may remember this i know a number of you have featured this in your individual programming as well from the heart which is our citizen driven program the an actual citizen committee evaluates the grant applications we the city provide in-kind support via me and we try to address very specific needs in the glendale community the past two years during covid we focused highly on housing issues food issues health issues since 1998 the city has distributed over 3.4 million dollars to our local nonprofit agencies and you can see the numbers listed there and the number of agencies in addition to this if you ever wanted any of the further information we post all of this on the city's website in budget and finance through the grants section so let's talk a little bit about the actual awards you'll see the blue is for um 2019 orange 2020 and gray 2021. uh let's talk a little bit about those spikes we see from 2019 uh in 2020 we received cares act funding during covid so therefore the numbers have significantly higher um and in 2021 as you all know and you've just discussed in length is the american recovery plan act the arpa this chart points out that on the left-hand side the 50k or greater that's the actual amount of funding awarded at 50k or greater so those were grants that were fifty thousand dollars or more on the right hand side is the less than fifty thousand dollars which you'll see the total amounts for the less than fifty thousand dollar grants are significantly lower these are grants that come in the form of twenty thousand or ten thousand or five thousand and this data does exclude um the from the heart and tribal plus our cap our community development block grants and our hud excludes all the formula grants here we we see with the with the amounts that same thing 19 blue 20 orange and 20 21 gray this is the average number of grants so the um what we're seeing is that we're receiving a very minimal dollar in 50k and under grants but we're receiving many we're doing many applications so we're in 50 of our applications are actually for grants that are awarded at 50 000 or less which is cumbersome to our our staff time what we're looking for is to be able to reduce the actual staff need to go through the processes for council resolution for anything that's 50 000 or under which the bulk of the money if we switch back to this slide still is approved via resolution the actual numbers are significantly lower for the 50 000 and under awards so the current policy requires that all the grant awards be approved by resolution city council so it creates delays in the delivery of the actual services to the community can't spend the dollars as quickly the proposed amendment allows grants awards that are less than 50 000 to be accepted administratively by the city manager designee this was the prior process before 2014 very similar process this existing administrative change was also reviewed in conjunction with the city attorney's office and supported that office so anything over 50 000 will still require that resolution and the majority of the money is coming through fifty thousand or more grants um there are some grantors who absolutely require government body resolution whether it be for a five thousand dollar grant or not so anything that requires it will certainly still be required by resolution and then the grants office will provide the city council a quarterly report of the grant awards that were under fifty 000 that were accepted administratively if this change is approved mayor what is the uh the length of delay explain talk talk a little bit about the delay thank you councilman vice mayor obama um when when we apply for a grant we'll just use a calendar so let's apply for a grant in january before we even apply for that grant the deadline's january 30th we have to put that application in that city staff will get with the grants project manager and say we want to apply for this these are the criteria this is how much it's going to be okay so that takes about maybe a week or two max they put together their application depending on the kind of application it is it can take anywhere from a week to eight weeks depending on what what needs to be supporting that application is there budget documents that need to support it do we have to have input from citizens or community then we actually apply when we apply we usually don't find out average of 12 weeks sometimes up to 16 18 weeks before actual award like if we applied for a grant today we may not even know until fall whether or not we've got it okay so we have that lag time if we do get awarded then the next step is to accept the award so we accept the award with the contingent because our policy says it needs to be resolved by city council that we will not spend that award until we've actually got our resolution in place so we get the award then this the staff will place that award on a city council meeting agenda for resolution which can take anywhere up to that two-week period remember our your agendas are made in you know in a scheduled scheduled advance way then go to council for the resolution and then wait for the signed resolution so an easy example would be the library the library goes through the state to apply for support grants they're called lsat grants they'll get a four thousand dollar grant they'll be able to accept the award then they'll still be waiting maybe six weeks until we actually have the signed resolution up to eight weeks in order to process it mayor um so there's not much more of a delay thank you for the process the steps i didn't know the steps um we're talking two two to four week delay uh we're talking close to a month to two months sometimes up to three months depending on what the council calendar is mayor members of the council i also want to add that there's a step that kristen didn't go over before a resolution gets on the council agenda the resolution itself is drafted by the attorney's office and also the grant information is also reviewed by the attorney's office so that could take up to two weeks for that review and then the process of getting it on the agenda depending on what when that review is completed the timing of the um the agenda for on the voting meeting could impact the delay on the acceptance of the grant award mayor and thank you for that step um but i think every grant will need to have a review correct through the attorney's office every single one you got that mayor and council this is kind of news to me okay um didn't know that we were an obstacle um it can it it can be though based on the workload depending on the number of days or hours it takes to get to our office but we generally work with the department to not only educate the department or they can write them and draft them themselves and then we'll review them or we'll assist them in actually drafting them as well thank you mary if i may continue thank you for that i'm not trying to pinpoint where where the lag is i'm trying to figure out the length of time of the delay because there's a proposal here that'll eliminate a delay but i don't see much of a delay the way we're doing it now if it's helpful to staff and we get dollars out to our community i'm all on board i'm just trying to find out the length of time of delay seems like it's only two to one to two meetings only but it's like maybe shaking your head maybe i'm incorrect and please correct me if i'm wrong it really depends on what the agenda work looks like for you as the council where it gets prioritized into that workload okay so but obviously with you know a grant like the ara right or the arpa excuse me that was prioritized immediately right so but with a grant that's maybe for you know ten thousand dollars for the police department to buy um specialized equipment that may end up you know going out for four weeks yep mayor and just my last comment is i i never want to delay dollars for any organization that needs it that's applied for that has gotten the award i i just want to make sure that we're not taking anything out of the hands of this council this body that's insignificant and to me it sounds like it's insignificant but i want to hear more so thank you yeah the question i have um can you think since you've been with the city doing this has there ever been one occasion where this council has turned a grant down mayor no absolutely not sure that hasn't been the issue my first thought is then what's the problem i mean somebody's giving us money take it uh so that was the one question my question is there any these grants that we're doing are there any of these pass-throughs for other organizations like midwestern someone like that uh mayor yes occasionally they are the tribal grants would be one of those examples okay so those obviously need to come through council in my opinion no matter what the cost if it's ten dollars if it's a pastor to another organization i think this council should discuss that and and but the other ones i have no issue whatsoever if it's from someone to the city of glendale one of our departments i i don't even have a problem with with the threshold if it was higher i don't have a problem with that the pastors i think the council should should have and discuss because there might be an occasion where the council might say you know we don't like this pass-through but i could never remember one occasion where we've ever turned one down mayor that is correct and also this policy excludes the pass-through grants it excludes tribal grounds tribal grants will always need to come to the council for a resolution that's required by the grantors okay councilmember thomas off and then mr melner is next thank you mayor everybody well i i mean i feel like coming to council serves an another purpose is that it's basically um for public record so i i mean for that reason i think it's important that i mean residents are able to see and it's they're on the consent agenda i mean i don't remember a time where we've actually had a big you know production presentation about any kind of grants they're just listed on consent and can and i didn't know that the number of items on the consent maybe ms bauer can answer that but are we limited to the number of items on the consent agenda i think once it's in the queue i mean it can be 10 it can be 15. we've seen a lot of items on the consent agenda mayor councilmember tomlin chop that's correct there's no limit so if there's a hundred or five it doesn't make a difference it's consent so thank you so mayor if i could so cueing it into the agenda doesn't seem like it should be that big of a problem because it's a consent item and i would hesitate to take that out of the of something that we're being transparent about and and letting the public know by it being on an agenda that's one way to let people know um you know the business that the city is conducting it's those that's a good news thing that the city is getting we have tons of grants for police and fire especially i notice on the consent agenda um so i i would hesitate to take that off the out away from the council not necessarily even because it needs our approval it's just that it's transparent and it's a way to let the public know um what what we're doing thank you mr melner thank you mayor um just one quick question why are these grants required from if an a private entity wants to apply for a grant why is it required to go through the city council member malnar if a private entity wants to go for a grant generally it's not required we don't usually partner there's certain funding such as the tribal funding based on proposition 202 the tribes are required to provide 12 percent of their funding back to their communities the tribal nations all have the same same policy regarding this required the pass-through of the city for accountability of the 12 the city then through ms bauer's office reports any monies that were out of that 12 percent that came through the city uh that those are strictly the ones that we see are the title for pass through are those the only ones that come to through this council the pass-through for the tribal are the only ones that have came through the council in recent years the newest one is the historic preservation one that i was talking about that is a requirement of the actual state the state parks and recreation fund supports historic preservation a non-profit can apply directly to historic preservation funding in this case its first united methodist church they are not a non-profit so they have to have the support and the sponsorship of the city government okay if i'm a mayor uh just on that same line of thinking then sounds like there's minimal number that have to come to the council and they have to come to council because the agency giving the grant requires it to go to council is that accurate to say um currently all come to council so let's use the number of 50 the round number so that's all coming to you if we took out only those tribal grants and those that are required by the grant or to go to council that would be less than half because the federal government let me just stop you there i i thought you just said the only ones that have to come to council are those oh i'm sorry you said private entities as your original question so i was referring to that our majority of our grants are not from private entities okay they're from federal and state so and i was speaking if i'm a mayor uh a private uh say a 501 c 3 that wants to apply for a grant and the grant tour does not require them to go through the city council that is correct that we're not talking about those this is not those kind of individuals no sir no council member and then i'm still a little confused is if there's certain ones that require them to come to council then who are we going to with this change who would not come to council give me some examples of entities or that would not have to come to this council if we we go along with this mayor councilmember malnar who would your question just to make sure that i'm clear is who would not have to come to capitol with a resolution that currently is required to come to council that is currently required um city departments i'll go back to the library example they receive minimal grants through the library state association five thousand dollars six thousand dollars and they receive them quarterly they're currently required with the change to this policy they wouldn't be required to bring those for resolution okay um that would apply miss rios mayor members of the council if i may maybe just to clarify a little bit so what we're talking about here is the low dollar amount grants under 50 000 um and what we're just trying to do is streamline this process uh we have lots of ways we can still be transparent about it we can create well we said we would create a report for you we can also post that on the website you know so that everyone knows all of the grants that we're getting and all of those grants as miss cray said that are required either by the grantor or by this body uh such as the tohono odom grants or the tribal grants they will still come to council plus all the ones fifty thousand dollars and over we're just talking about a lot of work when we mentioned the city attorney's office reviewing our office reviewing a lot of work for small dollar grants they're not there are a lot of them but they're all small dollars and that's a lot of work to get them on an agenda even though we can do it it's it's a lot of work for something as the mayor mentioned that is most likely always going to be accepted with this body we've never had one that was not accepted so in the interest of saving just the time and the effort that it takes to get those on an agenda without reducing transparency we're just trying to streamline that process maybe that helps explain a little thank you one thing that you had said that that i was going to bring up if it's posted on our website then i think that actually addresses what councilmember tomachoff was saying as long as as long as it's public people can can go under grants accepted by the city of glendale and then list everything that we've done i wouldn't have any problem with that you know just to finish then thank you very much for that explanation and i wanted to understand that better before i said what i'm going to say now which is i totally support this now that i understand it i don't see the need for us to have to spend the staff time to put these on the agenda just so that it can become more public if we have another way of making it very public and that's what i would support i'm always supportive of reducing red tape and that this sounds like red tape that we can get rid of but i think it is important that we still make sure that the public understands who who are getting this grants that the city's getting this grant and the council also has the opportunity to see these smaller grants who's getting them where are they coming from i think as long as those things are in place i would be totally in support of removing those particular smaller grants from the requirement to come to council approval thank you thank you mayor yeah i thank you for that so it's not just the council meeting that we're talking about it's the entire process and thank you for sharing that with me and so what the mayor said and council member malinor absolutely i am now okay i just didn't understand but it's not just the step at the council it's every single step and i'm okay long as the citizens know about and where they can go so i'm good thank you thank you mayor well i don't agree i think it's a solution and look looking for a problem i think the process is long and complicated and council comes in at the tail end and expends very little time and the total overall process you're talking about applying for a grant in january and it may not even come before council until the third quarter or later i do agree with council member tom and chav great put it on the website three percent of the people in glendale look at the website if we're being honest they're more likely to see [Music] a council session especially now that we have the segments of did you miss city council meeting and we have the ability to post them on our own sites more people are seeing what's happening at a council meeting than perhaps ever before and we are very visual rather than than the written word of anything else so i i thought the process was fine before i'm not in favor of changing it um and i say we continue just as we've been doing thank you very much mr turner thank you mayor um if i understood the presentation correctly prior to 2014 only those 50 000 or more had to come to council for a resolution and then in 2014 the policy was changed and now all of them are coming to us is that part correct mayor members of the council yes that is correct did something happen in 2013 that precipitated the change in that policy mayor members of the council the city manager at that time made a change in the administrative policy to require all grants to go to city council for approval via resolution okay so that's how it happened do we have any understanding of why it happened mayor and council i was here in 2013 and the genesis for the change was that a grant was accepted but that actually had a matching requirement for ftes and or another matching requirement and since that time it was that all grants would go through council because there was a surprise to the council during the budget process that there was a matching that had to be made and the council was not aware of it that it was the genesis of that but understand that was a larger amount but nonetheless that that that was the event that precipitated the change in 2013. it comes with us mayor sorry mayor members of the council we can certainly add that to the policy we would not do that we we would require anything that has a matching requirement that we have that match in the budget before we could accept that grant that's part of the policy already and so that's why you'll see some i think there may be some coming up in this budget process where we're requesting before we apply for the we're making sure that those dollars are the council's aware of that matching requirement and that uh that it's in the budget so that is already part of the of the policy so that would not happen again would you like to finish yes i would thank you um good to know um perhaps should have been included in our material if there's any other obligation created on the city by accepting a grant beyond what the grant is specifically applied for if it has any kind of a budgetary or operational thing i think the council should know about it if we are going to go back to the 50 000 threshold i do think that we should get a regular report some schedule i don't know monthly or quarterly that shows what we the grants that have been accepted not unlike the report that we get because a lot of times you know i like having them on the agenda i think it's valuable information it's some some of them are just plain heartwarming and and it also you know makes i think as a council member makes me more aware of of what actually is happening in various city departments whether it's parks or library or over in police and fire so i like having them there but mayor members of the council i think the suggestion was that we would do a monthly report we can put place that report also on the on the website we can put it on social media if we want the city and and miss cray and the staff and budget and finance and i think citywide we're actually very proud of our record of getting those grants so yes we do want to share that information we we have a sense of pride of those dollars that we're able to obtain so there's no um no doubt we'll be transparent about all of that and mayors if i could no way a criticism of our grants department or budget and finance or anyone else not not being critical i'm just saying that it's good to have it's good information for me to see it's also good information for me to have the background as to why a policy was changed at some point and and i'm particularly excited that maybe now you know the heritage fund grants for instance are you know becoming you know are coming out again i think that's a great thing and i'd like to make sure that those get publicized you know when they do come through thank you mr ms craig uh how many people in your department that do grants mayor um i am my department one okay so with that can you give me an idea on average of how many grants were accepted by the city of glendale from the work that you do um all of the grants that are submitted for application are reviewed and screened by me and approved prior to application so 50 for last year we received excluding dollars oh dollars um if you look at the slide that's up in front of you um on average for last year minus the arpa fundings we were at about 30 million last year okay so i think that you're probably earning your keep would be my guess with that said if it gives you more time by doing this to actually try to get more grants i to me that's that's the best value that we're ever going to get in anything that we do i i fully support this idea with those conditions that it's on our website and we have a special category telling people grants accepted by the city of glendale and we and we brag about it for somebody to give you money is something that people i think should know about i think we should we should boast that uh good job for you i'm going to go down here to council member tom and chop next thank you mayor um and i do appreciate the work that you do with the grant side still though kind of with council member clark i don't really understand how bringing it to council is an obstacle really and i mean the we what the part that at least for me that is lost in this process is uh if the transparency has been discussed away but the staff report i like to read what the grant you know i read about the grant so um i mean i'm one of those people that reads everything so um but without you know i mean the and that maybe maybe that's what the time savings is for you is for having to write the staff report i don't know what because putting it under consent agenda doesn't seem all that burdensome and time consuming so um but i like reading the grants i read all of them i read the consent agenda i read everything on the agenda so i just um you know maybe we can get an intern in there to help her or something if it's too much work but i like having them come through the council i really um and i really feel like we should just continue on with what we're doing because the staff report also tells the public i mean the public can see the staff reports too what the you know what the grant specifically is for if it just says grant to police department for i know we get a lot of stuff from the state for um uh you know drunk driving and things like that you know lots of different things um and we get federal grants too but knowing what the what the source of the grand and the reason for the grant and all of that stuff in my mind will be lost by changing this process israel's is there any reason why we couldn't still get a staff report by changing this mayor members of the council we can include that information in in the report what the grant is going to be used for um and all of those things again we're just talking about multiple reviews by people that is kind of time consuming again and also these are small dollar grants so they're not the big highway um i'm sorry the the big police grants and those there tend to be smaller dollars and so there's not as much things for the grant to be used for because it's a smaller dollar amount okay thank you mr phelps well i've been uh on the conversation i want to remind the benefit what this policy is to benefit there is certainly benefit to staff we're going to reduce down our time that's a positive it's a benefit to the recipient that is looking for that money and when our citizens talk about bureaucracy when it takes maybe a five thousand dollar grant six to ten weeks to get in the hands of to buy the equipment that the public safety maybe it's a public safety grant or a library grant we're just trying to streamline that down i have administrative authority to do contracts for 50 000 and under we're just saying we think that there's a more efficient way to do this with your staff we can create the reports like whenever i do my administrative stuff i we provide the transparency to the council all we're trying to say is the amount of time to process a very small amount it is time intensive but that's not even the real reason for this policy we're trying to find a way to get these the money in the hands of the recipient that's that's the primary uh goal and objective here and i think we get the side benefit of reduced half time all right do we have consensus for this right yes mayor yes okay we do have consensus thank you mayor thank you hey food's getting cold three o'clock uh item number no pressure council item of special interest short-term rentals mayor members of the council here to provide staff report for both items number four and number five is deputy city manager rick st john good afternoon mayor members of the council we're here to talk today about short-term rentals and some ordinances that were recently adopted by the city of scottsdale in the city of town of fountain hills uh this is in response to a council item of special interest from councilmember tommel chaff so i'm just going to run through a few slides for you and talk about what those ordinances say so we are seeking consensus today on adopting two separate ordinances really so think of it in terms of two separate ordinances one which would regulate short-term rentals and the second ordinance would govern the nuisance that short-term rentals and large parties at those rentals can sometimes cause for a community so speaking first about the ordinance regarding short-term rentals arizona vice statute does allow cities towns counties to adopt an ordinance mandating certain things regarding short-term rentals it's not mandated within the state law so the state law doesn't say for example the short-term rental has to register with a city town or county they don't have to provide a point of contact they don't have to provide an emergency contact state law just says that a city can adopt an ordinance that does mandate those things and so what we're recommending as staff because we don't know the number of short-term rentals that we have in our city so going on google and doing an airbnb or vrbo search can give you some idea but we don't know the number of short-term rentals that we have within our city this ordinance would give us an ability to know that information and more importantly from a public safety perspective we have that emergency point of contact should something happen at a short-term rental that's not being occupied so say there's an electrical fire or some other issue we would currently have to do quite a bit of research to try to find an emergency contact if that information was readily available to our police staff it would it would just streamline the process of getting the fix in place if you will so the ordinance would as i stated mandate that short-term rentals provide a contact information so that is the owner of the short-term rental but a lot of times owners don't reside in state and so we would want a local emergency contact that could be responsive to urgent needs typically public safety needs and then we would mandate that they'd be in compliance with all state federal and local laws which you don't really have to do but it's just good to stay within the ordinance and there are some prohibited uses that we're allowed to spell out within that ordinance and i've listed some of those on the powerpoint slide so housing sex offenders are operating as a sober living home are things that you're not allowed to do in a short-term rental and state law allows us to regulate that so with that i'm going to pause and seek council consensus on adopting an ordinance that would simply follow state law and allow us the opportunity to mandate contact and emergency contact information and stipulate some uses or prohibited uses rather mayor good do we have a short-term rental problem in glendale or just being proactive mayor vice mayor we i've had a lot of conversations the last time that we had an issue with a short-term rental was a couple of years ago was a significant issue that impacted both code enforcement and the police department but since then i'm not aware or nor is the chief of police or code official aware of any other issues that we've had with short-term rentals so i would say this is more proactive proactive and then with the super bowl coming yes could expect some more okay thank you mr st john can you tell me the difference between a short-term rental long-term rental as far as how this life is treating people different in other words if i own a rental home normal and somebody's renting it this code that you're that you're proposing is different than if i rent it out for weekends mayor that's correct so the state law does describe does define what a short channel is i don't remember the exact time period i believe it's rentals for less than 90 days okay with that said that makes the owner of the house responsible the way this is proposed is that correct in other words that's what you're going to call if there's an issue mayor members of council if there's an issue at the home we would contact either the owner or the emergency contact whoever's local so basically that was a yes you're going to contact the owner uh where if it's a long-term rental you don't contact the owner you go to the door and you contact the people that are there mayor members of the council there are times when we contact the owner of a rental property so for example if there are multiple code violations that are continued and persistent we would contact the owner of the property in those instances yeah this is your item thank you mayor yeah i mean we haven't had any real issues in glendale that i'm aware of yet um but the issue is that and it has it does happen is where you have these houses rented for uh large parties um you know basically that's the whole purpose of the rental is to have you know a a large party in the house with a lot of people that presents a lot of problems for the neighborhood so especially with super bowl coming um i mean this this this is this is all allowable under the state statute i don't i don't see any reason why we wouldn't want to in fact i had a conversation with a couple people that are that live in my district that are short-term rental owners and they want to see this kind of thing because they want to remove the bad actors from the rental business so these kinds of rules help actually the good short-term rental owners who you know manage their property and rent the people who are on vacation and and for the right reasons and remove the people who are basically even advertising these as party houses where you can you know rent a house and have 150 people there at an uh you know for a party let's not we don't want to have that happen in in if we can prevent it anyway and at least we have we know who to contact and i think you're going to get to some of that other stuff what i'm talking about in the next section here but i you know this ordinance i think phoenix has one in place similar to this already and scottsdale does too and they haven't run in any problems with with the state uh objecting to them to them implementing these so i think we i feel like we should move forward with it what else do you have i have a second if there and i think i saw consensus for this piece if i'm wrong please clarify but i'll move on to nuisance parties and the lawful gatherings so nuisance parties and a lot unlawful gatherings is a separate section of the code for both scottsdale and fountain hills and it's really kind of the teeth behind how we can enforce against problematic short-term rentals so glendale city code doesn't have an ordinance regulating nuisance parties or unlawful gatherings we rely on other sections of the code so the noise ordinance parking violations uh title four for model minor consumption the state law that that allows for us to to do what we just talked about and got consensus for also allows us to adopt and enforce nuisance codes on short-term rentals as long as we're treating them just like any other residents within the community and we would certainly do that oops so nuisance parties uh unlawful for a person to permit a nuisance party or unlawful gathering there's there's two sections that i want to talk about here and i think i went the wrong direction so there's two structures of fees and fines the first is a fee that's assessed essentially for the police department for the services that were necessary to mitigate a large unlawful gathering or nuisance party and so a first offense at a particular residence there's a 500 fine and then any second offense within 180 days is a 1250 fine third or any other offenses within that same 180 day period actually it's the 180 days extended from the second offense uh it's a 2 500 fine both scottsdale and fountain hills have both adopted that structure both the responsible person so the renter and the owner of the residence can be held responsible and can be fined or can be assessed this fee the fee is deemed a joint and severable debt i had to look that up it's a legal term i'll ask mr bailey to correct me if i get something wrong in the legal description but what it means is both the renter and the owner of the home are equally responsible but separately liable so just because the renter pays their fine or fee doesn't mean the owner doesn't still have to pay their fine or fee they both have to pay they're both equally responsible but separately liable to pay their separate fines hopefully i got that close to right okay uh let me ask you a question so uh you said the first offense or i didn't you didn't say it but it's on your first offense 500 that could be fined to the people that are renting and then also the owner mayor if i can uh on the next slide i'm gonna kind of elaborate on how the owner is assessed a fee or a fine so the owner has to be reasonably aware that there's a problem at the residence so what the ordinances in scottsdale and fountain hills allow for is a one-time didn't know that was going to happen kind of statement from the owner but once they've been noticed that they've had a problem at their short-term rental any other problems they have at that short term level they're held responsible for equal to the person or renter that actually threw the party but for the for the sake of discussion if it was the same renter so it's now the second offense from the same renter but the it's the we didn't notice the owner until the first defense had already occurred it'd be the second offense for the renter first offense for the owner because they weren't reasonably aware the first time so that we didn't assess any fear fine we just noticed them and then if it happens again that owner would be equally responsible so that is the fee structure that's that's set up by the city and the town city still town of found hills there's also a fine structure that goes through the court systems and i i also wanted to point out that this fee is appealable to a hearing officer so it doesn't go through a normal court process it's just a fee that's assessed by the city to the responsible party for first offense and any subsequent offenses the owner could also be assessed but they can appeal that so the owner can argue that they weren't reasonably aware even after they've been noticed on a first offense and they would take that appeal to a hearing officer so it'll never go to court mayor the the hearing officer may be someone that works for the court maybe someone that works for the attorney's office but no it's not a court proceeding it's a it's a civil hearing if you will okay all right the fine structure is separate from that so this is an actual violation of the code where a citation is issued and it goes through the court process both the city of scottsdale and the town of fountain hills have the same structure it's a first defense 750 fine second or any other offenses in a year is a 1500 fine and again the owner of the property once they've been noticed can start receiving those citations as well and have to go through the same court process that the person who threw the party would have to go through well i'm not seeing questions anyone else uh and i want to come back and ask this again to make sure i heard it right we have had no problems that you were over in the last two years we had an occasion more than two years ago mayor i believe it was three years ago yes three years ago okay and one of the things that i will uh say in response is again we don't know the number of short-term rentals that we have in our city so it is possible that officers are responding to noise complaints at short-term rentals and just don't know that they are short-term rentals there is software that you can procure its relatively inexpensive procure software that will run searches through the public databases and tell you where your short-term rentals are within your city we could then notice those people based on the consensus given for the first half of this discussion would notice those owners gather the required information and educate them on any other uh related ordinances this council may choose to adopt okay let's come back to another question so somebody rents a home short term they have a party people show up the party uninvited crash the party nuisance get drunk get into a fight please show up the people violating the law getting drunk and causing a fight get arrested or whatever the person at the site that rented the home could be cited and potentially the homeowner could be cited mayor everything is correct up to the homeowner if the homeowner has been noticed in the past that there's been problems at that residence they could also be cited yes and like i said could be currently would be could be okay mayor i would i would contend that if if i had a short-term rental and i had a few friends over and a bunch of people showed up uninvited and got drunk and started a fight i would call the police myself so um i i mean this is i think more of a preemptive thing um but with super bowl coming i mean this is going to be a very real possibility that it's happening in our neighborhoods and i think what we can do now that can prevent some at least give us the information that we need on our police department needs to know where are the short-term rentals and try to get them registered and get contacts in place before this becomes a problem in our city thank you mayor go ahead is this is something we do temporarily through the super bowl and because we don't have a problem we don't do it after that is that something that would be helpful to police mayor council or vice mayor we could adopt the fee structure outside of an ordinance i believe i think you would just have to go through the public notice process on a fee structure but for the fine structure it would have to be an adopted ordinance and i'm not aware of any ordinances that are temporary so it would at after say super bowl or final four or whenever this council chose we would have to come back and do a strikethrough amendment mayor mr bailey anything like that can occur happen vice mayor if we did a temporary ordinance just for those um mega events why would we do can i can i get an answer over here council you could attempt to legislate a window within which for that to occur however there's always a challenge with regards to enforcement which includes notice so there's that element that can occur but to the extent that you pass it and then post event you repeal it you could do that as well noting that you have a 30-day uh referendum period and that would exist prior to enforcement of that thank you mr bailey i i think the danger in trying to do something like that is setting the stage for making it sound like the super bowl's a bad thing or final four's bad thing i think that's the very last thing that we ever want to do is send a message hey we we like the money but we don't want the problem that comes with it i i'm not going to come out and say that i i want the super bowl here i want the final mayor go ahead may i thank you um this literally this has no effect on anybody but somebody who's who's a bad maybe not properly managing their short-term rental it's not going to affect 99.9 of the short-term rental owners and and the short-term rental owners i'm the realtor i have friends that have short-term rentals the people who properly manage your search and rentals want this kind of thing to happen because it it will remove the bad actors from the market and so this literally i mean if somebody accidentally rents it to somebody and they have a party um they're nothing's going to happen to the property owner at the for the first time so i just don't see any reason and there's nothing in here that says anything about that you know this we don't want the super bowl or we think the super bowl is a bad thing the the the truth of the matter is short-term rentals are a wonderful thing i mean i use them all the time myself i love them and most other places have this already i know even in hawaii you're they're required to have somebody local that handles a short-term rental it's a good thing for short-term rental people to be doing too in the event you have a flood you have other issues with the property they should have somebody who's here and responsible for the property for their own good so i don't i don't really honestly don't see any downside and i i beg to differ with the idea that this is saying that there's the super bowl's bad that we don't want the super bowl i just think it's something in in this new uh world of short-term rentals is that it's a preventative thing it protects our neighborhoods really our neighbors and it gives our law enforcement um something to put in their back to use if they need to yeah and to be clear my quote wasn't super bowl's bad my quote was if we come up with legislation that only for a short window for the super bowl that's what i was the point i was trying to make what i don't want to do is have people have the idea that we don't want the super bowl good thank you i i support uh council member thomas comments on this issue i think the idea of identifying who is in the business of offering short-term rentals is a plus for the city it provides data that we're sorely lacking and also attracts with our business and sales tax license division there may be people that are slipping through the cracks that perhaps are not paying the necessary rental tax on property so i i think that overall this is something that is long overdue with or without the super bowl is totally irrelevant to the discussion i think it's just something whose time has come and the city needs to do thank you and i again i i think my my thoughts are being misread i have no problem with knowing who owns a particular place if there's an emergency i have the problem with people being held responsible when they didn't do anything wrong and and and just the fact that we want it there in case we need it right now our laws correct me if i'm wrong sir but if somebody's breaking the law we have laws that they can go find the people or arrest them somebody's drunk disorderly they're too loud they're making we can already do all that this mayor correct that that's my point that that's my total point i don't think making the owner of the of the residents responsible or liable i think is wrong that's my personal opinion i like the other parts of this i don't like that part and so with that part if it comes to a vote i'll be a no vote if it comes to just we want people to register and and say who's the who's the owner in case there's an emergency i'm all for that i have no problem with that at all yes um i am in total support of this ordinance um i've had occasion to be involved with issues in other cities uh where this has been an issue um and the citizens who live around these homes that are like airbnb or other short-term rentals have have had these ordinances installed because there was an issue and i believe holding the i believe a homeowner is responsible uh if they allow for wild parties to go on at their home they are responsible i don't think we should say oh they're not responsible because they're not doing it they allowed it they need to put in their contracts that it's not allowed and if they don't do that they need to be held accountable so i'm in total support of this ordinance okay what else you got is there a consensus to move forward with that then consensus on the first item the second and the second yes okay well thank you okay city manager report and one more item item five we do oh the important one okay request to amend glendale city code chapter 25 regarding codes for feeding pigeons and holiday decorations so mayor members of council the first part of this discussion and the slide isn't showing so there it is we discussed the banning and feeding of pigeons on private property in a workshop on january 11th council gave consensus to go back and look at how we can make the nuisance of the feeding of pigeons unlawful but not necessarily specifically banning the feeding of pigeons on on private property so what we did is we went through and looked at our current code and where this might fit and under 2524 miscellaneous general you can see that we've included at the tail end of it including but not limited to the fading of pigeons rodent infestation and peacock crowling so or crowing this is a section of the code that we have used in the past and recently for someone that's been feeding pigeons on private property and creating nuisance we are waiting to see if that's going to go through the court system the language as it exists today isn't very specific so we're curious of how a hearing officer is going to see that if we were to make this amendment it would make it very clear that the feeding of pigeons on private property that create this health and safety nuisance would be unlawful and with that i'm happy to answer any questions and i am seeking consensus on this amendment mayor thank you how does this affect someone who feeds wild birds and the pigeons join the feast mayor councilmember clark they would what we'd have to do is demonstrate that their activities are creating a health and safety or blighting issue within a community so that the feeding of the birds isn't what's unlawful creating the blight issue and the health and safety issue is what's unlawful thank you i'm here good thank you um i know we've talked about pigeons and i know a long time ago i think we talked about rodents but i haven't seen the peacock crowing come up are are peacocks allowed out other than in in lots smaller than an sr17 members of the council councilmember turner i'm not i don't believe they are yeah so those are your suburban suburban rural or whatever designations and larger so if you're going to you know because i've got a neighborhood like that next door to my neighborhood and occasionally i can hear them but i that's what they expect living in that zoning district so i don't know that it would be fair to expect somebody who can legally own a peacock to keep their peacock from growing because their neighbors should understand that if they're living in that zoning district excuse me did i miss something no we were talking about the peacock stronghold you have to shush them okay i'll get close enough to hear you though so i i can support this but not the peacock growing part uh and i i had noticed the same thing i i my neighbor across the street had a pair of peacocks uh the the mills certainly are much louder than the females uh and uh it was very normal for me to wake up and during the date where it sounded like either a cat or a baby but we have agriculture area i mean you know it's it's allowed horses and everything are allowed there so i i think that that's going to almost have to come out i think it's already addressed i believe but i don't know if not maybe it needs to go into a different a different part another question somebody who just simply has pigeons that that don't feed them they absolutely do not feed them but they have decided to roost on their home and i think every one of us here know homes like that where i don't believe the owners actually feed them but they have just taken up home and pigeons are homing that's what they do they usually go back where they where they were born or raised uh until you eradicate them get rid of them you're you're not going to stop that even when the people don't feed them so then what the way this is is read sounds like that person's responsible even if they're not feeding them mayor there has there has to be some activity that the homeowner or resident is engaged in that's causing the blight concern in order for us to cite if pigeons just decided they're going to hang out at city hall for example and they have nobody's feeding them here but we do have a lot of pigeons around city hall the manager of city hall wouldn't be responsible for that unless there was some allowable activity that was bringing them in and the same would apply to a residence thank you mayor along that same line of thinking um the reason this was brought up was because of a resident who had was feeding and it did cause quite a flock of if you call them flocks uh a pigeons to gather in that neighborhood and they stayed and they they bothered the neighbors a lot it caused a lot of issues and the neighbor consented to stop feeding the pigeons but the pigeons didn't all go away and they still are a little bit of a problem even as of today and it's been over a month since they stopped feeding but they are i think over time will gradually go away so i would uh agree that they could flock to a certain spot but i think what brings them to that spot is the feeding to begin with once the feeding stops that they will eventually dissipate they've got a place to roof that's where they're going anyway so i would be in favor of moving this forward samara here this consensus to move it forward but removing the peacock language but before you go there uh i probably as everyone else got an email from a person that wants this problem resolved she said that maybe the city should look seriously at removing our man feeding the pigeons in the park just wanted to make sure everybody understood that i don't know as though i completely disagree with her i don't know if we take the pigeons off the guy or move the statue somewhere else but at any rate is there a consensus yes i don't i don't have a consensus yet there is a consensus okay okay mayor next item that we have is holiday decorations as you know sometime late last spring early june perhaps we adopted an ordinance regulating holiday decorations you can place holiday decorations 30 days prior and 30 days after the celebrated holiday we did come up this last holiday season with some issues surrounding that we had several complaints filed by a single constituent because people were placing their holiday decorations just before thanksgiving thanksgiving last year was the 25th so it was 31 days or yeah 30 30 days has no 30 days prior to christmas but because they were putting the decorations up say the week preceding thanksgiving so that those decorations were up when their families came over for thanksgiving we got several complaints and so what we're recommending is that we back up the allowable time period for when you can place decorations and we're recommending 60 days prior to the given holiday a lot of families were finding like to begin decorating for christmas almost immediately after halloween and so this would capture the time period there's also circumstances where people do pretty elaborate decorating schemes for for christmas and they they begin erecting those decorations pretty early and so this would allow for them to do that i think the the major blight issue that we're trying to control here is people that leave them up for too long after so people that are proactively setting up their home aren't really the issue it's those that leave them up for a prolonged period of time after the holiday so we are seeking this amendment to the code and seeking consensus from council to make this amendment good thank you mayor i you brought up a good point that some of the homes that do the real elaborate displays probably need even more than 60 days so do we have a uh you know some mechanism where they can say it i have to start in september or whatever so that they don't get cited because i think we like the people who do the elaborate displays and we don't want to discourage that so some mechanism or can they you know how would somebody go about that saying i start october 1st and that's how much time i need to be done by their halloween lights and then thanksgiving so mayor members of the council i'm not um councilmember tom chuff i'm not aware of any specific complaints about houses like that but if one of those complaints were to come up we would work with the code official in the attorney's office to make sure that we were treating them fairly and understanding what they were attempting to do which i agree is is not a blight issue it's a benefit to the community okay so we would make an exception essentially essentially okay thank you anyone else yeah and the reason i i i have such a problem with a lot of code issues is just that if if come up with a law or code that says it has to be this and then we're making exceptions i i don't agree with that that's where i have my problem that's why typically i'm a no vote on a lot of these i i don't think we should be making exceptions i think we need to come up with something that's fair to everybody that that's where i'm at mayor i would say that um i wouldn't want any exception made for anybody who leaves or lights up beyond 30 days after the holiday and i think no exceptions but if somebody needs more time than that and i i know um some i i'm related through marriage by it i don't know if you remember back there's two brothers that lived on palm lane that were on the news every year and they did elaborate displays they let people come in their house and they started like in summer to put all that together so they didn't have an hoa or anything but i mean people i think we need more of that stuff you know so i as long as we're not gonna cite people for saying they're you know they're put they're really working trying to put that up i don't think they actually put the lights out until the very last minute but do you want him to amend it to 90 days no i don't i think that's fine i don't i feel sorry for the person who was reporting the people 31 days before that's kind of sad honestly so i'm fine with this any other comments thank you city manager report two two quick items um first uh just let the council know is we're moving forward on the downtown uh reinvestment project which is of course the redoing of city hall and we uh did an rfp for design services we received six applicants we're currently going to the process to score those and we hope to have somebody um on uh you know on contract here later this spring but that moved forward nicely the other thing is we're wrapping up our second month of live at murphy park and we had a great weekend of activity what i will say is i think the last two months have been really insightful for our team i think we've learned a lot we're learning more every every time we do one of these this past weekend we had almost 900 people total that came down we've had good response on what we're learning about some of the cover bands that maybe focus on one act is real popular uh comedy is uh was real successful we did comedy here so we're learning as we go along and we're we're continuing to believe that if we can build consistency into the schedule that we can really create a really a good vibe downtown on the weekends and so that does conclude my rep my remarks thank you michael no report council item special interest council member has the opportunity to indicate topics they'd like to have discussed by this council at a future workshop council member clerk nothing at this time mayor councilmember hugh nothing man councilmember melner uh nothing today mayor councilmember thomas i think today mayor councilmember turner not today mayor vice mayor none at this time you guys are awesome i have nothing myself motion to go into executive session some move i have a motion from councilmember turner second council member clark to go into executive session any discussion hearing none all in favor about i i any opposed vote name apparently guys have it do you have it council meeting is recessed bye