say it's kind of like the you know you start out what's the good word space sty yeah it's drawn draw a crowd people I thought it was just Andrew at the business center at the hotel hopefully warmer than the last time saw I doubt last time he was in was oh yeah but just so you know I'm in Pier today and we've got a big snowstorm moving in for tomorrow I'm sad that we don't have quite the festive background this time Eric no I can't top the last one I sought out a less uh dis disruptive background for those you didn't see background last time it was Valentine's Day exploded in the office Center the hotel glitter and sparkles and hearts and I think you guys are going to need to have your mics on for me to hear you because I can just barely hear you yeah I remember that from last time oh there we go yeah I turned my mic on although you're talking loud enough that he can probably hear you yeah I I do have an outdoor voice I walked over here tonight with no coat on it's beautiful and I was like oh should I put on a sweater no it's almost 60 outside last week in Missouri it was freezing cold and then the next two days were it was 70° as soon as you left no when we were there it was really cold out there we had some well issues but and it was 70° nice I'm glad you got some nice weather like what is that my face it's Su well you checking the parking lot temperature today 54 de in the shade wow yep how far was our Frost up this year most places sevenet six to S oh was it it got so cold that's same with the the ice is going to take forever to go out on the Lakes not because it was cold for long but because it was when it was cold it was very very cold think we start a lot of yeah I I have uh I have friends who uh serrup and they're all very excited okay that is exciting but more exciting is this work session which I will now call to order um let's see calling the March 3rd 2025 work session to order um up first we have the city manager report Mr mer uh good evening mayor and Council can you hear me okay Eric yep perfect uh so uh quite a few updates I'd like to share so we're getting ready to prepare uh the Street Maintenance project uh one of the things and talking to the city engineer Aon Schmidt um we noticed that a road that was planned for a Mill and overlay section of Carver Bluffs Parkway is kind of deteriorated over the winter to the point where uh in ain's opinion we probably need to do a Reclamation project which as many of you know is a more of an expensive proposition and so in sorting through that uh our plan as a as of this point is to change that to a Reclamation uh but then uh provide some alternate bidding uh opportunities because the Reclamation is going to probably cost in the range of $90,000 more than what uh the fund can support at this point and so uh the goal would be to come back with that project uh with a Reclamation if we have enough funds to do based on bidding amounts the some side streets if you were call the sack areas and we would do it all uh if it's not the case then when we do our annual update to the pavement management plan we'd reformulate the dollars that are needed so we stay on schedule uh so that's the preferred option the other option would be to try to find $90,000 or and at this point it's just an Engineers estimate it can end up being $120,000 more and so that was my concern of like putting forward the complete project knowing that it's just an engineers's estimate and so uh worst cases this gives you some more options to choose from when you can actually get the bids but aon's here if you have any specific questions related to the street but just a slight change in approach and if we end up changing that approach then we'll have to communicate that to the residents that are impacted I have a question not about that street but last time we discussed the street maintenance plan I had brought up Ramsey Ramsey Avenue and I think uh I wasn't the only one to mention that Ain has anyone been out there just to take a look at that to see if it's going to make it another year yeah Eric I actually drove the streets last week again and I did check out the Ramsey Avenue piece and it's definitely deteriorated it's a reclamation project no doubt I think that one's planned for 2027 at this rate so right and that was a concern will it make it to the scheduled Reclamation yeah I I guess it's we don't know for certain but I guess it's not falling apart to the point where I would say yeah we definitely can't make it two years at this time anyway Eric okay if you looked at it and that's the engineering judgment that's fine I just I'm glad you did uh moving on at your next work session if you remember uh we had planned or the council had planned to do kind of a restoration to Natural sitting in Riverside Park uh but that Grant got delayed with the Miriam Junction trail project and so Aon Smith has been working with is it Great River Greening um so there's an opportunity to again apply for funds that would coincide with when Scott County is out of uh Riverside Park so uh eron's going to be bringing that uh application and kind of site plan back to the council for some line of sight at your next work session uh fortunate enough and excited to announce that Andrew Simmons is going to be the city's new director of public services and Engineering uh he's from the city of Rogers he'll be starting two weeks from uh today and then today we welcome Jordan woli uh as the new utility superintendent so uh did some onboarding and orientation with him um and so he started today and looking forward to having him join the team and then just a little line of sight that council did fund a mechanic position so uh we're going to start uh advertising for that that'll be one of the first projects that Andrew takes on with a lot of support from Paul in uh advertising and interviewing for that uh mechanics position uh just wanted to share that ABDO was in last week to do our annual audit so uh big thanks to the team especially Lynn Seth uh Christine and Ashley uh for their work on uh helping with the audit uh a heads up that Aon Smith will be doing a preview a development preview on The Enclave development uh so that' be the lensen property and then the Hammers property to the west of the lens and properties uh also at the March 17th meeting uh Erin's going to be presenting uh the dog park rule she worked with uh doc Dr Carissa uh from Healing Hands veterinarian clinic um so that'll just be a draft and something for the council to review um scheduling a kind of a tour of public services and then the fire station um renovation project should be complete by then so prior to your meeting on the 21st um an opportunity to take a look at that space and then for those of you who haven't been out uh at the main shop to look at that ground garage space and then providing another opportunity for the council to talk about uh the space study tonight there's going to be a lot of uh information to take in so we wanted to give you an opportunity to kind of take that in and then uh talk about it uh again for uh communication um process types of direction that the council might have uh strategic plan and goal setting Retreat this planned for Wednesday April 9th uh we did have some success the last time of having department heads provide kind of the environmental scan of their Department what current needs are what future needs are at a meeting prior so we're going to use that uh Monday April 7th work session to go through that so that when you get to the Wednesday April 9th meeting we don't have to take so much time in reviewing every detail you have maybe a couple ideas prepped for that and then uh as you might remember Civic plus is our website uh service provider and so uh they provided some uh data to Brenda good she's been working with um so I just wanted to share that one of the things that's provided within our contract is kind of a refresh so Brenda Good's going to be leading that effort just from like a a visual aspect of kind of reworking how it works and maybe some of the menu functions so if there's anything that you have specific related to the website that you want to share with Brenda as a maybe a a perspective uh I'm sure she'd be happy to take that feedback so that's my report for this evening any questions for Brent all right uh moving on any Council requests this evening I don't have any [Laughter] okay go ahead I don't know why that strikes me so funny sorry go ahead Eric so I just want to uh pin down uh we've got the league of Minnesota cities um uh session coming up this June uh and that's something I know we have a limited number of people that can attend that uh I've expressed interest in attending that but I need to coordinate my calendar to be sure that I I can do that have we pinned down who is going and who can go to that um let's see I think that that's something that we still have to discuss Eric I am going going um and I think you had demonstrated some interest in going correct okay um let's put a pin in that if that's okay all right um let's see other Council requests Courtney you had said that uh you wanted to talk about coordinating with Eric and I for March 6th at the hill yeah that's something I want to do with you do that off yeah um just in transparency we're going to down the hill and I want to talk about um car pooling and such so um okay up next is the Public Services space study Mr Mayor uh thank you mayor and Council so uh provid a little bit of information Beyond just the actual report that was completed by uh orell Architects we had a a group of uh staff and Consultants that worked on putting that together but a a little bit of History um and I would offer this might be helpful in that uh we've done a variety of space studies this is the first time I believe that public services or commonly referred to as Public Works is kind of the main story so in 2014 we did a master plan space study but at the time you know City Hall was really the front runner of like you know planning for that space and I would offer that public services was a little bit of an afterthought in that and uh we also did a study related to Public Services Public Works and the fire station in 2021 um not so much the case as an afterthought there but there is a c there is a very specific set of criteria that the council asked for at the time and that was related to um finding uh or providing space that the city currently owned we at the time the council didn't want to look at land acquisition so the box was somewhat limited based on uh the parameters that was provided uh but there's also kind of a competing interest uh looking at that renovation project for the fire station some of the maintenance items so this um and I think Paul Schultz can attest to is um I would offer is the most comprehensive space study uh that we've done for public works and services and so and I would also offer that this is literally the very first step and so um although there's a ton of information I respect our team respects that this is a very big um issue for the city council to Grapple with really the community to Grapple with and so sometimes that can feel um hurried and maybe the process doesn't feel right and so I just want to remind you that this is the first step and so take it all in you're not we're not hoping to pressure you into like choosing a direction tonight um but one of the things that I've noticed being involved in public projects is if we can't all get to on the same page and that by organization and community on what the need is the process becomes disjointed throughout and so uh with Andrew this is Andrew Cooper he's the president at bortell Architects I think he's provided uh the fundamentals of what that need is based on uh feedback that he got from Paul Schultz and the rest of the Public Services team some of our other staff but again you know I've used the the analogy of kind of baking a cake here this part of the ingredients involved the city council and so this doesn't necessarily need to be the finished project if you if you see things or gaps in information or data that you want us to look at again we can do that uh this is where we're at at this point and so we're looking forward to engaging with you in this first step of that conversation so with that Andrew take it away thanks Brent uh good evening mayor and Council um I am Andrew Cooper auor Architects I am the President that's kind of cool thanks for saying that um I I don't I say it every once in a while and it sounds kind of cool and it is um so what we're going to do today is we're just kind of get to go over um the deliverable a very brief high level summary of the process and we started this about a month or two ago and it's it is really high level the uh cake baking analogy is perfect we've right now we know we have flour sugar and eggs we don't know what the flavor cake is we don't know anything else so really it's just kind of the nuts and bolts um we started the process uh meeting with uh Brent and Paul and and staff to really kind of discover what are uh the imperatives what are what does this study really need to cover uh and through that discussion we came up with four critical imperatives uh this project needs to be future forward uh so we looked at various intervals of uh programming and we settled on a 20- year interval is kind of uh the First Step Beyond what is the actual current need and then 30 and 50 years really thinking that when you do uh come to the table to implement this project you want to make sure that you're looking at something that is uh going to be uh future um safe not proof there's no such thing as future proof but it it is looking towards the the future and uh what could develop within your community uh looking at Best Practices uh what is typical within the Public Services industry for uh space standards for vehicles um operational workf flow uh staff and administrative space staff amenities really applying uh the best practice for uh the industry and the building typology uh to your building program and staff Centric design uh so really fine-tuning what the program is and what the initial Concepts look like with Paul not Brent it is the people who use the facility day in day out that are really helping us understand how they work and what the building means to them um Brent provides guidance but he's not the one officing and work out working out of there so really looking at who is working in and out of the building daily and then the fourth goal is budget establishment so there's there's numbers within this report it's just to help you understand what the scale of some of of these spaces size really mean and for you to understand with Paul also what is the priority uh for the project to really kind of look at yes okay I understand what that budget means what that project dollar amount means this is what we think is viable for our community and then you would establish a budget for whatever something looks like in the future so we're going to do uh through the course of the report is we're going to break down parts of what we did within the for imperatives wrong button so future forward first we're looking at um a space program a a total block of space at that current demand so what does your current staff uh vehicle Fleet need uh what does it look like at a 20 30 and 50e interval um and looking at uh from various uh aspects of the project like you know vehicle maintenance vehicle storage and admin space uh real simple breakdown of what those space needs are you can see here uh at the current space need we're looking at um a building of around 53,000 Square ft and as you project out um to 20 30 50 year projections um adding a substantial amount of space and at those projections and the way we came up with those projections is using uh Community growth metrics um we're looking at roughly you know somewhere between a 30 and 40 five% growth per uh per year and so when you factor that out over staff and vehicles we're looking at how your community grows with an infrastructure that needs maintenance that public services is in charge of so uh as your community adds households adds Lane miles adds utilities that need Service uh that equates to a truck that equates to a person to operate that truck and those things needs space uh trucks are a very big piece of the building program so when you add more trucks you add more space um can I ask you a really quick question when it says current need what do we have for square footage right now that is in the gray box at the very end and that is roughly 16,000 Square ft okay and you're on roughly about 3 acres and that is um the existing facility that's comboed with fire as well as um the downtown in Lions Park okay so when we say current need on this is this if we were to have the space that we deem to be adequate for our current Fleet we would we would be at 52 be at about 53,000 Square F feet correct okay you and we'll go into why that number is that size within the best practices um looking at um how do you best uh Park Vehicles how are they uh readily available to be deployed out in the community to Service uh how what are the best practices in terms of Staff spaces and whatnot so the reasoning for the 50 uh 3,000 square ft um the first best practice looking at is um large vehicle parking so understanding uh that a vehicle when it's parked indoors uh takes up a certain amount of space and for specifically the large vehicles there's uh plows front end plows there's side plows there's uh brine tanks and if all those things need to come off the truck in order to be parked in a facility it's not readily Deployable so now you have staff time to mount those things just to be able to go out and work in the community and then have to tear that down again to park the vehicle so the best practice is to plan space uh for that vehicle to have all that stuff stay on throughout the course of its uh uh parking duration and what that means is it's a considerably larger spot uh versus what was Illustrated in the previous study and we're also looking at uh vehicle and Industry Trends uh these large pieces of equipment they are not getting smaller our personal vehicles are getting smaller but the L the large service Vehicles they get on average probably 18 inches longer per every model release and that's for a various number of reasons uh Alternative Energy different uh uh modes of operations and services that each vehicle is doing the vehicles keep getting bigger so we're looking at a reasonable increase in size uh for that vehicle uh space that could roughly fit a tandem vehicle so a double axle very heavy uh vehicle this I'm going to jump in here for a second I asked Paul um one of the things that when I saw that 53,000 number it took me while to get my hands around and one of the things that's hided in plain sight and if Paul could kind of touch on it is our vehicles are are stacked and if you go kind of go down there um you'll realize if you look at it in a different way that they're parked uh Paul can you can you kind of share kind of our practice and the rotations yeah so I oh so um if we go up there right now and I know it was brought up before that when we have our open house it looks really cleaned up and it looks like we have space reality is that's not what it's like um if you were to go up there today there's at least 10 plows that are parked outside where when the snowstorm comes for an example we're hooking them up at 2 o'clock in the morning um outside pickups are parked outside so um routinely right now we switch seasonally back and forth from the old pu building to snowplow stuff up at the fire station public works but it is it is a challenge for everybody especially in the middle of the night in climate weather and I think this is a great because I've I've never heard of anybody doing a study where they put the truck already assembled together and gave it a parking spot um well can you share also like an example of how their vehicles are parked into in so you might have to take out a vehicle or two to get at something so right now some are parked end to end and some are parked side by side um some of the smaller ones the Bobcat say for an example and the tool cat we have to park them side by side where the wheels are touching um because you're able to get out the front so that's allows you but it gives us more space end to end and making them Millennial would take up too much space so we're cramming it that tight and then all the pickup trucks and service trucks that we have get parked outside so that's selfishly for me that was an important factor cuz I didn't see 50 or whatever the difference is between our 15 and 50 outside but when I thought about it like that and Andrew brought that up I'm like oh okay so we're we're putting more stuff into that 15,000 square feet than most communities and best practices would tell you for ease of motion of that vehicle and operation and so that was just kind of an aha moment that I had Paul outside about how many square feet are we taking up do you know out in the so were you I I can't really give you a a great example of that because we're part parking stuff up at the by Fleet Farm at the Water Tower 2 we've got equipment that are parked up there um we were parking down at what's now Creekside Park are going to be you notice we clean that out and then what's up at the fire station and we are really sharing that some of that space up at fire station with fire department okay do you have any idea like how much outside space up at the Public Works building well I know our bays are 80 by 80 and I would say they're double that what you're using outside yeah okay yeah thanks po so you want me to do some math hold on nobody wants you to do math nobody want 33% I've seen your map before Oh you guys are terrible thank Paul touched on it a little bit too with um the way they are currently parking these parking spaces also allow for safety in and around um heavy pieces of equipment metal uh plow wings you don't want to have to try to shimmy around and smack your head on them so they're they are allowing u a safe amount of circulation in between each vehicle for staff to be get be able to get in and out of around those Vehicles as well you know if I if I could too that's a great point right now about having a safe distance to walk around vehicles and check them out because right now if you go up there and we pack everything like sardines up there A lot of times you try and get out of a pickup truck that we've parked and you're opening it enough just to get out of the truck without dinging the door onto the next truck that's next to it and that is a reality for us that's how much we try and pack it in plus we're parking outside because just not enough room so that's a good point about having a walkable workable space and then just for comparison the previous study was looking at roughly uh just under a 700 um square foot parking space uh and fewer of them uh medium vehicles large pickups and similar vehicles uh all the same reasoning for the spacing um they take up less per vehicle because they're smaller vehicles but there's still still a certain amount of space you need to have in and around those Vehicles there's still attachments there's still things that go on them a lot of uh these types of vehicles might have trailers that are always attached uh for deployment with maybe mowers or um you know Park maintenance equipment uh always on the trailer so you need to be able to accommodate how those things are parked and how they move in and out of a facility uh there they are um larger uh spaces than were previously programmed where the programming was about 180 Square ft so about the same size or smaller than a uh public parking space say at Fleet Farm where that vehicle say a large pickup is easily going to to fit within a 12x 24 parking space and still when doors are open take up that entire area so really the sizing in terms of best practices is all about uh equipment safety and operator safety to be able to maneuver in and around those spaces also through uh this current study evaluating uh the city's Fleet there's a we counted a considerable number of those vehicles uh versus the previous study and that's not saying the previous study was completely wrong to go back to what Brent was saying it it was just a direction in how they were counting and how they were utilizing space that uh this current study wasn't didn't have that constraint so it's able to look at it holistically from a best practice perspective um talked about being able to walk around a vehicle and inspect uh equipment uh service and maintenance is is uh very important you're spending a lot of money on these pieces of equipment so to be able to maintain them uh is is critical uh you're hiring looking at hiring a mechanic and uh maintenance Bays both for large and small vehicles are very important um when you're looking at maintenance bays and the best practice for programming you're really looking at two to two and a half Bays per technition so that if something is broken and has to sit and wait for parts or wait for spec specific service that there's still an area available for that technician to be able to do work and not just sit there and wait for parts uh so that uh that maintenance area is not just one space for one person it's two to two and a half spaces per person so the workflow can be maintained and that as stuff comes in and out it can be uh repaired and put back into Service as quickly as possible uh the simplest uh preventative maintenance thing you can do is wash equipment but that is a high humidity activity and when you introduce that much humidity into a general space It causes building degradation uh causes cleanliness issues so having a separated dedicated wash bay it can be attached to the main building but we want a way to to control that humidity so planning that to be its own separate space uh and how Vehicles circulate in and out of that is also a best practice so that you are easily cleaning those Vehicles you're parking them clean you're extending the life of that equipment and it's a very simple thing to do uh in the previous study there were no spaces along those lines there was a wash bay but it was just integrated to the main facility which we wouldn't recommend from a uh Building Maintenance perspective I think oh I'm sorry go ahead you're maybe gonna expand on it um I take it we don't have a wash bay right now correct so right now we do have a spot set up with a pressure washer in it in a bay but it's not a wash bay um so typically what happens right now is we wait and hope it's a good sunny day after a winter event and they wash them outside even during this cold winter and of course we create a nice parking lot Outback um I know the new Public Services director when he was given his little tour right away he asked me where's where's your wash bay um here this is all we got so I know that was important to him about vehicles are ones that are going to keep in shape for you so yeah when this space isn't being used for washing can is it can it be used for other things so can you do maintenance work on vehicles in there or I would say it would be a something have to move it out might have to move it out overnight or or the next day during the day but it would still be a spot correct I yeah you there are communities that do use their wash bay for for parking of specific equipment but it's really depends on the season so that it is still available for that washing without having to get out of your vehicle that you're currently pulling in and move something out of the way the goal within a best practice space needs program at a stage like this is looking at you're only going to handle equipment the one time you need to to get in and deploy it out into service and then return it for parking rather than I have to start this vehicle move it 15 ft get into the next one and move it out of the way so I can uh exit for deployment so there are some synergies there and some redundancies that you can find in a later design stage to when you're evaluating priorities with staff right now we're looking at it holistically as what is the ultimate best practice and the ultimate size that would be required okay so the wash bay itself then would be in general purposes just used for wash bay general purposes just use for washing okay thanks and Andrew when we're talking about wash bait this is a location with a few extra floor drains where you can manually wash a vehicle versus a car wash correct yeah there there are communities that have full automated washing um nothing that pulls your vehicle through it's still the operator is driving through uh overhead arches there are some automatic features that we would heavily Advocate uh washing the underbody it get where all the salt and the dirt actually accumulates getting that with a power washer unless Paul wants to crawl underneath and shoot a power washing wand underneath yeah so um yeah there are some automated things but it's not a car wash that you go to at case's or holiday or whatever thank you uh staff Centric design uh allowing staff to influence how we were looking at things um and so really what we're looking at in terms of the staff Centric design is how are they going to use the facility day in day out so this diagram on the Le hand side is um kind of a best practice staff Day in the Life type of scenario where uh staff will come in to an admin space and they will go out to their vehicle which is in the parking area they will load with salt or sand or brine or whatever uh and then deploy uh out to the community do their service return so they're accessing that site uh maybe it's midday maybe it's end of day and they're going to fuel they're going to wash that vehicle and then they're going to park it return to the administrative area and then go out to their personal vehicle and leave so really looking at that operational flow starts to dictate how you come in and off the a public way onto your site how do you separate uh public traffic from operational traffic really uh with a focus on Safety and Security so focusing on staff arrival how do staff uh get daily orders in the at the beginning of their day uh how do they exit the building what do they need to load is it salt is it bulk materials um where are they doing their work out in the community and when will they come back uh and what that means for types of space out in the admin area uh fueling washing uh maintenance all those are you know know that operational flow really kind of dictates how much pavement you're going to put around your building because Vehicles need a lot of access they don't turn super tight these are big vehicles so you need to know how that operational flow uh works so that you're forecasting the right amount of payment and the right amount of Site Area for the facility I have one more quick question um for the wash is that intended to be well or city water depends on the location okay so we could possibly do a well there instead of I ideally you're going to be on City Utilities a vehicle wash um at eight gallons per minute with a power washer and probably about a 30 minute wash and you're talking about 15 20 Vehicles that's a considerable amount of water to that's a lot of strain to put on a well plus you're going to be a fire suppressed facility so when you're on a on a well there's a lot of gymnastics with U surge tanks and well pressure to fire suppress your facility so ideally you'd be on city services it's our priority to be connected to City Utilities I'm just looking with the amount of water that might be coming through there excuse me would it be something to look at a well for just for the washing station or is that not and then have have the rest of the building hooked up to City there's just in connecting with like er on some other things there's a lot of you can look at that uh we've just encountered a lot of issues related to um managing well impacts like um of our existing Wells and then private Wells there's the Department of Health requires a lot of um I don't know admin related to that so DNR permitting and such it's it's not you know a clean process so I guess mic sorry yeah we have wells we have wells in our Parks right now for irrigation for irrigation yeah but this is I mean what is our what are our uh drinking fountains there are they hooked up to city water or is that well yeah City Water City Water the only Reon bring this up if there's some advantage to having because you're not going to be drinking it's not p with water if you or it doesn't have to be if it's coming from the well if you're just washing a vehicle with it so I don't know Paul do you is what's the fire station up there now is the publicity it's all on City okay all right plus it'll be hard water too so I don't know if you do any softening but ideally you'd wash a vehicle with soft water but that would be it would be hard water too so but it's a good point it's definitely something we're going to look at yeah you one of the like the kind of parallel steps Andrew and Aaron have been talking about infrastructure and utilities related to water and so if that's something when we get kind of deeper into the process you want explored and have a cost benefit analysis done we can certainly do that okay it's just something to think about I'm not sold on it just okay thank you sure uh this page is just a an example of what Paul is currently working with at uh the existing uh main facility uh it's roughly 9500 ft is what is available to him both on the main level uh in the operational Bays uh within the office admin space that's shared with fire and then on the on their upper level uh there's also a breakdown of what is downtown and at Lions Park and we provide this diagram at scale to understand what kind of a full on the full building would look like so this is what you're seeing in the diagram here is a 50-year buildout um and you can see how the various programming steps are adding slices of space and so you could for whatever uh reasons budgetary or site you know say we're going to build 50 year of this and zero year of that and but really what at any stage that we're at Now concept and preliminary design future design phases you want to master plan whatever site is available so you know how to expand and you know what that would look like at a 50-year interval and just for uh uh just a line of sight this isn't a proposed layout of like the parking that would come at a later date it just represents what it could look like in a space like that can you flip back one slide I just want to catch that square footage on the bottom really quick the JCP okay that's that was 95 all right thank you MH yeah uh this is we do a vehicle layout as a kind of Representative kind of test just to understand like the geometry of of the Box uh when you're talking about a a building area that's somewhere between 50 and 70,000 depending on which building program you're looking at you want to make sure that the building program is can actually be laid out that way and that there's an actual uh Dimension that is worthwhile because we do want to test what this would look like on an actual site um so this is a generic site um looking at that operational flow that we talked about uh looking at what that Ultimate Building would look like uh what is staff and public parking look like uh what does u a site screening perspective and green space look like what is operational yard so um unpaved area that might be used for brush uh processing or uh bulk mat material dumping and sorting before it gets put into storage bins uh where the salt might be and how that relates to that uh fuel Wash Park load operational flow uh and then what we need for storm water um storm water is a um big issue on especially when you're looking at Green Field development it's you're you're replacing what that Green Field could really do and the last thing you want to do is actually ask an architect to design the storm water uh that's what Aaron is for um so that's why I show as much blue as possible at these initial uh design scenarios because it's sometimes uh forgotten later that oh yeah this is a big storm we need to try to contain but there's also operations on a public services site uh like salt uh like loose sand storage like fueling that requires certain uh filter ation and uh storage uh of storm water runoff because they they could be contaminated and you want to try to plan enough areas on your site to be able to handle that uh operational demand this next series of diagrams is just um a way to look at how you would achieve that master plan in some of those building steps so this white box here is the current demand and then you see what it looks like when you build on to the 20 and then 30 and then ultimately that 50-year building plan you can see how the site um evolves a little bit and how some operational areas don't move like the fuel Island and the staff parking and some of the storm water features those don't move but you might see the operational yard space in the class 5 Paving move and expand out to get further away from the building to accommodate uh the building growing we also wanted to make sure that we weren't uh short changing that future demand so we're looking at a plan here that probably fits within the 16 17 Acres but an additional you know four to five acres out because we don't know what uh the future holds for Carver in 50 years so maybe there is the opportunity to have more Cold Storage so unconditioned uh pole barn type of storage to uh have more Road rotational space as you get 50 years down the road maybe uh there's a service demand that changes the vehicle Outlet so what do you have for space to be able to accommodate that so you don't have when you're going to buy land for this project potentially you don't have to try to find land in a city that is already developed to the point where it's too difficult to find another uh five to 10 acres of of land to house those operations that's a good seg like the the appetite for land right now as you'll find out when a in cherer update both at this work session and the next you know there have been a number at as the council knows we've been looking at land maybe for the last year there have been a number of sites that have kind of disappeared from contention because they're being used for something else and so um it might help we're trying to as a at a staff level trying to think of these on Parallel tracks where the actual like conversation with the community and the organ organization on space and what that looks like might run a little slower but if we can do an analysis and find the right piece of land at the right price and the location that fits those future needs um it creates an opportunity for a bunch of different options where if maybe we wait a little longer um price and location might be constrained based on land availability um so uh something that we want to engage in future conversations with the Council on but we still owe you uh an analysis and a matrix on uh land opportunity so that'll be coming at some point later this year so budget establishment I'm going to go over this quickly there's a lot of numbers here and I don't want to get confused anybody or get bogged down in what they actually are um but we did apply uh numbers that we see on projects um at the conceptual level and they're they are escalated because we we don't know what's going to happen in the future and we're conservative uh in some of these uh costs because we don't know what the building is actually designed out of we're just dealing with blocks of space but we are utilizing costs per square foot that we see on like projects uh with within the metro area so this top portion kind of breaks down uh the total costs based on what is a construction hard cost what are soft costs the cost to execute the work you know paying a general contractor paying the design team uh procuring furniture and whatnot uh those are all things that go into a project but they're not the actual construction of the shell or the construction of the site uh and then there's um the cost to uh execute the work at a given timeline so we oh did I do that my apologies um so the um so on the upper right hand corner there's um the cost of construction and then there's Market escalation and we are looking at somewhere between a four and six I forecasted 5% actually for all these um particular options and then we forecasted that both to a 2027 and a 2032 timeline just to kind of give you an idea of what it looks like with that fiveyear time delay yeah because what one of those mistakes that I think we've made in the past or I made in the past is we get this space study and it gives us that price but there's no way we're constructing this in 2025 so your number is almost immediately old and outdated um you know and so hopefully that provides you a line of sight for like something maybe that's a little bit more fast-tracked uh versus maybe a project that's done in 203 to where there's maybe some benchmarks that you want to hit before you make an [Music] investment and you wouldn't be the only one who wa we make that mistake too yeah here's the 2024 project estimate oh and we're completing the project in 2025 here so we're already late so all all of these uh numbers do do escalate to 2025 and those and Beyond and then that lower section you know I I talked about you know program priority is each of the general area components of that current need total 53,000 square ft there's a breakdown of admin vehicle storage vehicle maintenance workshops and Cold Storage that just the building so as you start to work with staff and they put a higher priority say on admin space than vehicle maintenance and a higher priority on workshops than vehicle storage you can start to see well I want to build the 50-year office the 20-year vehicle storage the 30-year maintenance and you can start to make that those dollar signs add up to come up with a project that staff thinks is feasible and that way it's again staff Centric design they're the ones determining what is uh they really think they need to help you as a council understand what they think the budget is and then you can tell them where the budget actually is Andrew you said for the project scope costs at Future intervals those are completion year estimates those would be midpoint of construction typically is the way I forecast the 5% yeah so kind of effectively we're already 2025 is kind of not feasible really because we don't have a 2025 construction number would be infeasible no but uh the 2027 numbers would be midpoint of construction so if and and we're talking about a project size and scope that is probably a somewhere between a six and nine month design time Y in totality so if you wanted to be midpoint of construction it's probably about 16 months of construction you cycle that back you're you're probably have to be in design by 2026 in order to read that 2027 and it's noted in the memo but these costs don't include offsite infrastructure or land cost because that'd be dependent upon what site you're looking at and so that'll be part of your Matrix that we'll provide to you so you can make decisions based on you could have a property that's more expensive and land but easier to service from a utilities perspective and vice versa um we we have those scenarios um so we'll get that information to you but that so these numbers don't represent the total they just represent kind of the building and then where you locate it and utilities to service it are in addition to this number or that number thank you we are forecasting um that is ortell architects's forecasting site construction numbers and that will all have to be verified through an actual site design um I try to be as conservative as possible on because site work is underground and you don't know what you're going to find once you put a shovel on the ground so the rest of these pages are just I really like spreadsheets so I produce a lot of them um so but they're just kind of proof of concept in terms of how we're looking at the different types of space and how uh the cost of vehicle storage uh it's a big number when you put it together but it's the lowest cost per square foot so is just kind of proof of that concept to illustrate what that is uh there is um a construction type and quality that's kind of forecast I I mentioned the conservative nature of the numbers we're looking at kind of the the better of the good better best uh scale of construction type and quality right now um there there are there there's plenty of opportunity to move along that scale Within These numbers there's also plenty of opportunity Within These numbers to scale how much uh space is actually necessary at the initial um project so you can really fine-tune what that looks like from a budget perspective but just know that um if you said I want something that's going to be really nice but not the best in in the metro area that's kind of what we're focusing at focusing at and Andrew the examples that gave at the end of your presentation are those also better on that good better best or good better best right scale good better best well this this is really little for me to see but I I wrote it so I I kind of have it memorized so what you'll what you'll see here is almost all of these projects on here depending on the timeline are going to be kind of towards the better there's a couple that might be on the best end and where you start to get to the oh thank you Brent you start to get to the best end is where you're looking at uh sustain building sustainability goals that have higher uh Demand on mechanical and electrical type functions and you have to do a lot more with the architectural envelope more roof insulation high performance windows and you'll start to see that say in like um there's a New Alm project there which is actually the National Guard that's funded by the the state and the Guard Bureau they have a lot of requirements for how their building is supposed to perform so you start to see that cost per square foot get a little higher up uh and that's almost entirely within those Building Systems where the actual architectural shell is very appropo to the rest of their projects I think what I really like about this particular sheet is you can see in the Years completed how some of these things were impacted and we can all remember back to some of these economic conditions um and you can see wow that was really cheap what happened well that was 14 years ago you know things have happened um you know uh I cite the Ramsey project here as being a building that's kind of right at your 20 year projection level um we designed Ramsey entirely during the pandemic we started we the only meeting we ever had in person until constru until construction was halfway done was the kickoff meeting and then 3 days later the shutdown came so we did everything all the Design Within the pandemic uh and then once it was ready for bid we hit an economic condition that is never going to be seen again hopefully because we don't have to go through another pandemic to get there but um costs were super low and so it's a it's an indicator of what could happen but not likely to happen so you start to see SE numbers escalating from there so yes all of these are going to be in your kind of better range okay thank you and you one of the you know like I would say like the probably the preferred path from like a longevity standpoint is like a concrete tip up building uh but you can see other applications where it' be like a pre-engineered metal building um and so there's a spectrum of choices um we wouldn't recommend at this point you say this is the type of building that you want we'd like to like let this kind of the space stuff kind of percolate a little bit so um just to kind of maybe bring this full circle so we're hoping tonight for some critical discussion and conversation with the team and amongst the council but our at least our preliminary plan and again take Direction on this as well is to kind of take this report and create a nice uh handout that we can integrate into the newsletter for the April newsletter and the main newsletter inviting uh the community to participate in a listening session where they provide feedback on what they see so that you can use that as ingredients so that when we get to I would say like uh June July where we're getting into the 10-year financial plan you can use that feedback and provide a path on integration of that invest M within the 10-year plan or wherever you choose and then kind of follow those steps but those are the first couple steps um and again that's a path that doesn't mean it needs to be the path uh but just trying to give you a an idea of kind of how these next steps could go because it's such a obviously a massive project that would last for decades and so just wanted to give you maybe a starting point to have a conversation on it so there also is some just to kind of steal it away from Andrew a bit there's some information regarding um their firm um and one of the I think the most one of the most important steps is that this is kind of this this is the design phase but then there's the what's the next I would call this the uh programming and pre-design and then there'll be then there's a concept design where you you're going to actually lay out the admin area you're actually going to lay out the maintenance area we'll come back and actually lay out the vehicle area a little bit more detail just to kind of proof concept some massing you start to understand building Heights then you go to schematic design where you start to bring engineers in and you understand how the thing is actually going to get built um I wouldn't I wouldn't engage schematic design at all until you had a site purchased and ready you can do Concept in advance of that um within within range but um I wouldn't recommend doing anything beyond concept without a site in hand and so that example proved to be I think fortuitous with the the city hall project so uh we had multiple studies but we got to the point where we took this kind of concept or pre-design and then did listing sessions had a committee and eventually the council developed in conjunction with the community input guiding principles for the project and so you know you you could say well we want to have this type of construction and we want to build to a A 20year or a 30-year design whatever that is and those ingredients could been then be used by the design team and staff to kind of um enhance that process so that we don't come back with something that you and the community don't want to see so this is kind of the the first step in that process but I would offer for editorial opinion that that was a pretty successful process for City Hall that's where they said you know they really wanted to focus on the building being downtown they really focused on having uh a lower level community space rather than having city offices on the lower level there are um some notes for the his you know his historic and kind of not mimicking it but having it be compatible with the rest of the downtown I can actually I can send that out to the council just as an example of something but our uh Good Fortune thank you our hope would be to maybe develop something similar uh when the community and the council's ready to do take that [Music] step I have a question for Andrew on this slide um for the um site acreage you're recommending quite a bit of Acres compared to some of these other cities and the size of their buildings is there something different we're doing no I don't I think the only thing that I don't think you're doing anything that's happening I think you're Community is just growing at a larger rate than some of the other communities that we've looked at in in the past um you know Ramsay as a kind of in the in the ring in in the similar ring but kind of going up along that uh Highway 10 circulation corter up towards St Cloud is kind of aopo to an analogous um they were really hemmed by neighboring um cities though and so they weren't they didn't have the same kind of growth metrics that you guys are looking at I think that's where we're forecasting a quite a bit more land um to help you future proof but I think it's somewhere within the range of that you know 14 to 20 that is probably ideal but they has to be part of a what's the 14 to 20 number Acres Acres Acres yeah a lot a lot of that's going to be dictated by by land that's available um so someone might be operating on a current site or it maybe it's the relationship between a current site and what's available so they want to be within you know something that's adjoining and that's the biggest area they have Andrew you showare the example of Orono I think they had a interesting land or actually like i' like to hear more about an example like Rosemount where it's a way bigger facility size but the same Acres but maybe Oro is a little bigger facility but only seven acres so um at Rosemont uh it's a 20 Acre Site it's also combined with police so it is a joint it is a joint facility um and we built from property line to property line so there's not a single square foot of that 20 acre site that didn't get touched um and at Orono um super constrained when you buy a piece of leftover property from mot along a major Corridor um so and somewhere between uh 35 and 40 ft of grade fall from one side to the other uh so it's it is also completely maximized and there will not be growth at on orono's site so that's kind of the that's kind of the key to look at is like those were communities that that um now Rosemont will grow but they built a 30e building um and they're still operating out of several other facilities that they're going to use to balance that with some cold storage and whatnot so thanks that helps and I would also offer and I think Paul could probably add to this but we're kind of a real life example of that when the existing facility was built you know the 3 acres that it's on probably seemed enormous now we essentially landlocked and so just looking at how this community is going to grow I think that's probably one of the guiding principles the council i' want to consider is do you want to you know how much land do you want to get as long as you can get it at a price that you think is reasonable and fits the budget um but you know we're talking about a 20 year or 30-y year need obviously the community is going to provide services for longer than that and so can you provide can you provide get enough AC Bridge or you won't be landlocked in 30 years that's a delicate balance rate cuz budget always is a major indicator of that but uh I would offer that some of the parcels that we're looking at provided maybe the city a better opportunity because maybe they're uh they're not in our traditional growth areas and so that's one of the things that uh we want to present to you at a later date all right um before we open this up to comments and have our kitchen table conversations that we're so far familiar with here um during work sessions I so last week um Andrew presented this to City staff and Brent um Let me listen in to kind of this dry run of this presentation and cie made a point that just really resonated with me that I wanted to share with you guys I think as we look at this not only is this like our community's growth and however many more plow trucks and front end loaders and skid skiers and bobcats and I think I just said the same thing three times right I know because I've driven one um but I like so Cali made this point of um you know he's like we're programmed to get a ladder truck in a number of years and we're out of room on their side of the fire department so I think this the Assumption has always been that the fire department is going to grow into that building and effectively and respectively we're going to kick Public Services out so like that was a little bit of a light bulb moment for me is that we are also out of room for the fire department but they will move to that north side of the building so um just sharing that and because it was so insightful for me so questions comments thoughts I have a couple questions for staff go ahead okay um Paul do they I'm just going to throw it like Chan Chas Mia since they're larger than us do they still use satellite buildings for some of their equipment storage or they all in one um they still do use some of their wona for an example um they were using another their old facility for a while I don't know if they currently still are but they had been for a while um and I think Andrew mentioned that that was go ahead yeah I'll I'll answer uh so WC conia is in the process of finding another piece of property to rebuild their Public Works building that we did for them a decade and change ago because it's under it was under sized the day they moved in and Craig aldred can help testify to that um so and they did use their existing facility to help balance that existing facility is no longer available to them okay is it kind of typical though that cities will still use some of these satellites absolutely okay AB absolutely so I mentioned Rosemont is still using their they're going to use their existing building for uh a period of time until somebody else takes it over um and then they'll expand their storage building to help balance that out so there's some initial cost savings but there's still some long-term investment that they're looking at making to help improve the the site that they just completed and that's and that is typical um for communities to look at right we're going to build a really big chunk but there are still some things we want to phase down down the line and how do you balance that that need usually utilizing existing facilities that are available to you okay and it wouldn't be at least Paul and I haven't talked about it but it's not my intent that as soon as like a new building is done that everything is moved immediately that there'll there's you know it's like they you they always say you can never have enough storage and So like um it would be our intent no as the fire department grows there might be some more pressure on that um but it would I'm not envisioning this as like there's going to be like a day where everything's handed off it'd be like a slow transition based on what this final project sure I'm talking about having you know we use the Pu building down there I still call it the public utility the Pu building and then Lions Park and you know there's some storage up in the water tower I mean is that just kind of typical that you still just use some of those spaces like the one of the things like that's been disc like we don't store anything with gasoline and the water tower that's against the Department of Health standards so thank you um um y but the like the like right now the building inspector or building officials Park their vehicles in the Lions Park Garage um so I would imagine you know a lot of this will based on like what the end product is but uh I imagine those spaces continuing it you know for City use in one shape or form okay and then I was looking to this and I can't believe the Chanhassen building is was 2010 that that was built um that that I thought when I'm looking at this I if you guys haven't been in that building I I don't know Paul what you think of the construction of that building but I Chen Hassen or chassen yeah and that is built basically like this correct with the they drive in they drive out yep so they can pull right in with a truck and trailer um they do have some huge meeting spaces for for public or for the for the staff I mean so yes that that concept the drive-in drive all so that might be if you feel like a field trip head up to the Chanhassen Public Works building and take a look because really that's what I thought of when I saw this it's been a long time since I've been in that building so maybe it looked appeared bigger back then than it might now but um and I know the city of Victoria is also you can drive in and drive out okay um but that is pretty small already so when was that one built was that sure I I would say probably within the last eight to 10 years okay yeah okay um and then when we're looking at the amount of office space and admin area can you maybe comment on what you think that number of Staff will be I mean we we know that we'll have different you know offices for superintendents and and some of our our heads of department and possibly are we looking to have actual like admin staff at that building but what are we looking at for office space that we think we really might need up there I'm not against having office office space up there we're going to need it we have it now but I don't I don't want to overbuild it for a building that the office space part where we might not have staff that is full-time up there as office staff yeah that' be I don't have like the exact number we have a we integrated our 10year staffing plan so they have that uh but those are those fine touches that you can make where you could have you know basically kind of a roll up workspace where someone has a laptop and they can plug in so uh I would editorial comment I would certainly offer we don't need a like a cubicle for every technician um but we we have Christine up there three days a week I'm imagining that's probably going to be Amplified shortly because we have more full-time staff down there at administrative R so I would say we' have you know offices for the two superintendents the director and some you know a conference room that type of thing but again those are those are you know those light touches that you could make in those guiding principles but the I would say the heart and soul of this building is uh vehicle and Equipment storage the service Bays the wash bay that kind of stuff it's not intended to be a second admin building because frankly you know I would offer that you know 80 85 90% of their day is not spent inside so um and that's certainly something that the council can reinforce when we get to that point okay and you know Laur you brought up that the acreage on this uh that we're reviewing seems a little bit larger than some of the other ones do we I'm trying to think as I drive through chasar Chan do they have uh where the fire department has other buildings that they're stationed at or is it EMS services that they have on some of their public property CH just closed a fire department Chan did one of their smaller ones okay so is our intent then to keep the fire department in one place correct okay for the lifetime of our city at this point for what we can see that's the in our crystal ball and the mayor kind of mentioned it is it say uh fortunately uh I believe we're in a position where instead of having to build two kind of like your a big Public Safety facility and a big public works or services facility you're in a position where you can have one of those kind of two acor apartments uh assume the balance and I don't see any reason by that existing fire station if they had the whole Space couldn't last 50 plus years frankly um it's in a great location it's and Paul alluded to it it's set up like a fire station you don't see Public Works buildings built with doors on both sides like it like they are because you lose all that kind of parking space um so and then one of the other things that's probably not as visible to the community is uh with the development of Creekside Park kind of the the city's kind of storage area so that was that 5 to 10 acres out there at the old wastewater treatment plant is kind of gone and so having kind of that messy area if you will is a need uh that's uh not shown on this plan but it's you know having 3 to five acres for snow storage and you know um trees from a storm or uh Street uh Street sweepings um is an area that uh we need to add to the site and so having a little bit of a larger site for those um kind of dirty parts of the the business uh is desirable okay and then one more question uh for the fire department in that space if we were to need to add on at all did we have room back there to add on to that existing building if we needed additional fire department room if we went back the towards the pit the goal would be to have them take the north side of the building right I'm talking where as we keep looking if as we keep looking into the future if for some reason we needed more fire trucks or needed I'll give you an architect's perspective yes there is there's there's the salt building and open area uh to to the west and there's three total Acres there so there is there is Site Area to expand what that expansion would look like and how it best operate you'd need to investigate that with the fire department but there is room there there is there so that that can stay our main hub for y we'll just stay forever okay okay that's all my questions Kayla um I think that this is really good I like that you have the trends in there for the vehicles as time goes forward because that was one of my big concerns is that if we're planning for vehicles we have today what happens when the vehicles change um my concern is mostly things that are going to come later on down the road when we're looking at more fine tuning I agree with what christe's saying about some current concerns about having you know a cubicle for every person things like that but that's later discussions so um just a couple little things yes I like thank you for the presentation um and as far as like the building materials and the Aesthetics um on page 22 or talks about construction type for me like that is way down the road we you know wait until we have a better idea of the site um and then this is just something that I think would be helpful and I'm piggybacking off Christ um questions on how many staff um on one of the slides it talks about the projected staff um it would be helpful to know like how many of those are you know out in the community how many are in the office yeah I mean right now we have projected for future growth and today too to be clear so we only have a 10year line of sight to that so the and I would say like the superintendent you're in the office maybe the first hour and last hour of the day the director would probably be in the office all day with the support staff so you're talking about two people um so the the if there's the admin piece will not be a big piece to this project if that's a concern for the council that'll you know there'll be enough for them to function but they've um again the heart and soul of this is the vehicle storage and the servicing of those vehicles um the admin space will be what they need but we're not we don't have an intention of making it larger than it needs to be or giving everybody their own cubicle or having multiple conference rooms and then the important question where's the break room the break room would be in the admin space and and also what's included in admin is also locker and restroom space so um when we get further down the road I'll advocate for those areas to be as big as you can afford to build them because Plumbing is expensive to demo and remodel so if bathrooms and locker rooms you you design that to as far as you think you can deal with and then office space you can always expand as necessary but bathrooms are hard to remodel and you can be efficient with those spaces like we do know I mean you can make your break room a training room and a meeting room you know kind of all in all in one so there's opportunities to do that yeah it yes that's okay thanks um thank you for this this is insightful um I appreciate that it's future forward I really like the part of it being staff Centric design and in the memo we talked about who participated in it and it is the folks who will be using this and the folks who will be working out of this kind of a facility um so I do have a couple comments before we move on that's all right yep I yes I almost forgot about you but I will not forget about you just fin sorry Eric okay um you know years and years and years ago I drove around with Brian skoke and took a look at the facilities with the intention of just kind of seeing where we are from a space crunch perspective and there is racking is there still racking at Lions Park where we are storing stuff vertically instead of on the floor and trying to develop more space um you know I think if you know what public services looks like because you go to the fire department and public services open housee I almost think that we are doing kind of the community at disservice because that's not what it looks like tonight I would imagine um and I almost think and I've said to Brent a little offhandedly but maybe we should but for the public services and Fire Department open house in 2025 maybe we give a really realistic look of what it looks like in there except for it's probably a little bit too dangerous to have the public in there because there's probably too much stuff to to trip on and to navigate around so um those are just my thoughts I think that this is a really um good overview and I appreciate how like userfriendly um these calculations seem to be in terms of not having to put together a plow truck when it's snow and to beat the band and seven degrees outside so um Eric my apologies but you get to have the last word go ahead oh awesome great so you know I see tonight's discussion um really about kind of focused on the land right size and scaling all the reasons that we need that space and I was thinking about you know met Council just released some statistics on this future size of Carper uh and that's even picked up some media attention so what we're doing now especially in a project like this uh we really need to think about the size Carver is going to be um and just by the Numbers we're going to be as big as brainer or monacello is now um I think you know when we look at that 22 Acres I know that seems like a lot but we'll really regret it we don't have the space in the future so um as I look at this the the easiest part of this is ensuring that we have space to grow um and identifying you know where that's going to be um but uh thank you for the presentation um I uh you know whatever we do whatever the scope of this project is um you know it needs to exceed uh the life of the loan that we have on it uh so if was a 20-year loan we need to be looking out 30 years so we're not uh going back and redesigning but uh this is a great start Just One Last Word thanks sir just a question for the council you know especially with Andrew here are there any you know our next steps would it be to communicate this to the residents or the community at large are you comfortable with this going out are there gaps in this or you're like oh I disagree with this or I need these numbers looked at again because we we don't want to put you in a position not that you're agreeing with the path but we want to agree what the menu is and the choices are so if you're not comfortable with the menu continueing that food theme um let us know and we can come back and make some changes or have a continue the conversation on another work session uh but we want to ensure that you feel good about at least the data that it's accurate and it depicts the need now what you do with that and the decision tree from that is up to the community and the council but is the to report what you want for the next steps okay there's 40 seconds left of our time here so um I would I would love it if we included in here or at some point when we're especially when we're talking to the public some pictures of what the facility looks like full I think that's going to help um people get their their line of on this U my other thing is that I really would like Paul if you could get rough idea really of what the outside space that you're utilizing right now um so that we can have that information too to say this is this is the square footage we're using outside that should be inside I think those numbers will be helpful so and just to clarify you're not just looking at the Public Services building today you're looking at what we keep up at the tower two outside we have those numbers I think what you store outside that's not included in that 9500 that's just the building what should you use outside of the building at the Public Works building can do okay well then you'd have to do that using best practices so you don't Jam all the equipment in like park it like we would like you park like yeah like you're like we should be probably I think it's just it'll help when we look at the square footage of this new building saying here's what we are doing right now and these are and they're outside when they should be inside so it's a nice comparison just thinking out loud though isn't that the number same number as existing what we have didn't we do the the existing number that 15,750 is all interior space the 3 plus acres is roughly just the area that is the combined facility right now plus the yard out to the back so okay the it'll be close to that 53,000 because frankly the Paul and Lynn did an audit of all our equipment and vehicles and so to get everything in there that's how you get to the 53 so whatever we park outside under like normal conditions would be the 53 minus the 16,000 is what we have outside right okay well and if that number is so we can do that calculation ly can do that calculation okay those are my only two requests and then just my question and I don't know if I'm looking at this the wrong way but on page five of the space study it says building program totals and it says existing it says 12234 so the the paper copy has been revised a packet copy is the latest edition so we found some so that should be 15750 right there's miscellaneous like you got that super early so before we did a proof to so because I wanted you to have something on paper what's in the packet is accurate okay thank you and my eyes really appreciated seeing this and just being able to so we can if the counil wants I can send you an updated paper copy I I would like one okay I don't I don't need one I just want to make sure that my math wasn't off really um anybody else with feedback on that last question from Brent which I am struggling with oh this is kind of what we're comfortable with sharing publicly although we're sharing it publicly right now well you're not NE you're re reviewing it when we send it out and engage in um Community conversation in a way you're kind of saying these numbers are valid as as far as like data goes and so if you're not comfortable with the data because if we have a resident come up and say well these numbers are all wrong and we agree with them that creates this process that's not as trustworthy as I think we'd like it to be I am not hearing anybody say we are not comfortable with that no Eric thoughts I'm fine okay and I'll you know um we'll give you some good line of site on drafts before it goes into the newsletter of what's going to be communicated to Residents so that if there are little tweeks because this is a very I think personal process much more so because it's a you know probably the biggest public investment that the city's made or considering making so uh we'll make sure that the communication feels right to you before it goes out awesome sounds very good eron I think we're gonna hold you until meeting um just want to make sure that we gave enough time for that anything else on public services development uh or public services department space study no okay I would ENT entertain a motion to adjourn I'll make a motion to adjourn motion by council member Mack I'll second second by council member Sarah any further discussion all those in favor say I I'll do a roll call vote oh yes you will thank you Brenda council member Pasco I council member mck I council member s i council member pman I Mayor Johnson I thank you we are adjourned thank you so much appreciate it e