I would, but you know what I would do? I wouldn't just stop. I would pull in front of the car that was stopped and get off onto the shoulder. This car literally stopped in the middle of Highway 7. Oh jeez. >> Talk about the I learned that I was caught behind. It was literally his blinkers on just idle the entire way down seven. >> Oh my god. Oh my god. >> And actually, I got lucky. There's a truck couldn't couldn't make it up the hill at St. Bonnie. >> Yeah, that's what somebody was saying. Yeah. that on 92 because of that hill. You were saying that, right? >> Yeah. That's uh >> you have to get a really good running start. >> And it could be 90 cars. I'm likewheel drive. Why are you out right now? Like why? Where could you possibly need to be? >> I drove the I drove our truck in four-wheel high. I was smart enough not to take my little tiny Mazda, you know, with my with my high performance summer tires on it. Yes. Right. >> Right. When I lived in Dallas for 13 years, it would snow and I would literally be the only one in Morgan. Like, what is wrong with you? They're like, "What are you doing here?" Like, there's a half an inch of snow on the ground. >> All right. So, we're going to start um now for the fire department budget. Um is anybody going to be here for that? Is Eric going to be here? >> No. So that's just an item where we look at there's a there's an overage. So it's >> that's fine. All right. So we're going to start um I'm going to call the meeting to order. This is the uh February 18th uh city u Minotrista City Council work session and it is uh 5:06. We're we are starting late but just for the record it is um snowing out and the roads are horrific. They're very bad. So, uh, today this evening, um, I'm Lisa Whan, um, the mayor. Also council members present are Kathleen Refukin, Peter Vicky, Claudia Lacy, and Brian Gn. And then we also have Jasper Krugal and Brian Grim and, uh, um, Paula Bowman. Right, I got all the names right. All right, so with that, we have three things on our agenda for the work session. Uh, we have a lift assist billing ordinance, and then we have a water bill adjustment request and, uh, discussion on a policy. And then we have the St. B St. Bonnie Fire Department budget reconciliation request. So, we're going to start with the lift assist and I'm going to hand that over to >> Yeah, >> thank you, Madam Mayor, members of council. Um, this is an item that uh kind of came up through our uh fire uh advisory committee meeting at Mound. And we we talk a lot about lift assists and how much um they actually cost the the fire department to do. In Minitrista, we don't have many. Um, but cities like Spring Park have quite a few if they have a senior facility. Um, and one of the things that was shared at at a meeting was this ordinance from Maple Plane. Now, a little bit about this ordinance. It it maybe isn't the right if if we want to pursue something isn't really the right thing for us. It's more centered on on senior living facilities or senior assisted living facilities. Um but the city we we can we can if we choose to we can form that ordinance however we want. So it could be for residential. I know that um we've talked a little bit about maybe there's a certain amount of of lift assist that you don't charge for for residential um you know property. If we do get assisted living facilities here at some point we can always adjust the ordinance or actually build it in um with the current ordinance if we just say well if it's an assisted living facility you get charged. um if it's a residence uh for example, you could say the first three or first five um in any annual year are free and then after that we charge a certain amount. So really what I wanted to do is just provide that ordinance from a community in our area that has something on the books for these lift assists um and then engage with city council about uh discussion if we want to pursue something like this. >> Okay. >> Is um is mound or St. Bonnie considering things like that because it seems like that's where our expense is right now with know the joint with them covering us. >> The I think they're looking at it. I think Spring Park's looking at it. Um >> and Spring Park and Mound are the ones that have the most lift assists in our area >> and they're both looking at the same thing. I don't know where they're at in the process or if they've decided to to pursue it or not, but um you know the billing piece is is you know probably the most challenging part because uh we have to wait to get a report from mound. >> Close that >> oh >> door. I think Gary's out there talking too. But um we have to wait, you know, we'd have to get a report monthly report from each um agency. So, uh, and then we'd send out a bill ourselves and then they would likely submit that to insurance and then there's a process for that and it might take a month or 45 days or longer to have them respond. Um, so it logistically, you know, it's another thing if we would actually start billing, but right now there's not enough really in Minitrista that we that would trigger um anything. We don't have any assisted living facilities here right now currently. And I got a report from from Mound and St. Bonnie, um the most that we've had as far as you know frequent flyer, lift assist and miniaturista in a given year. So um >> but not all the same. >> No, all all Yes. All the same residents. Yeah. Yeah. And it's and I talked to um Chief Peterson and our our chief squires here about it. And it's usually elderly folks that are kind of staying at home maybe a little too long and then that is the driver while they find um care somewhere else. So, >> okay. Okay. >> From the discussions at Mountfire and this all stems from Mountfire, not St. Bonnie discussions. It's a big issue um not just with the senior living facility with the as Chasper said, the people that are staying their homes past when they should be and they call them frequent flyers. I think it's good for us to be proactive and have something on the books for it. Um I don't think it would be an issue to have one for residents if they call more than five times in a year that they start paying for them. I mean, you know, everyone could get hurt. I've had to call for a lift assist. I couldn't walk down my steps cuz my back. So, I mean, I get it. But if it's a continual issue where you shouldn't be living at home, I think we should be billing and then they can run it through their insurance or whatever the case may be. And then having one on the books just for if we do ever have assisted living facility seems like a good move. >> Then it's already there. >> Then it's there and we're not targeting them after the fact. Yes, >> I thought I read in the material that um the excuse me um that uh these facilities are supposed to be able to >> they're supposed to >> but they still call it like >> yeah they don't have the staffing. >> Okay. >> And then the police respond and the police call fire because they know fire has all the people and the um equipment to do the lifts >> because sometimes one person might not be able to lift them or whatever. Yeah, >> I think it's a good idea. I experienced that with my parents where they all in their community and got to know the EMT people and it was again >> it really was I really liked them but um but it did factor into finally getting them to be able you know to agree to move to assisted living where you know they were much safer. >> So I think it's probably a good idea to limit to have like >> one to five or something. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, I called the uh the facility in Spring Park Presbyterian Homes and I asked them, you know, I know they have three levels of care there, >> right? >> And the woman that I spoke to said, you know, everybody thinks um if someone from the fully independent living falls, we can just go get someone from the >> assisted and we cannot. >> Oh. >> Um, it's not a staff thing. they can't do it. They have to call 911 or they have to call the fire department. Um so that was one thing I thought was interesting. And then another thing um within mound um one of their frequent uh families that needs assistance lived on the third floor of the Grand View Apartments. The owner of the building doesn't live in Minnesota. He doesn't care so much about the building. And for months the elevator was out of service. Um I think that should be something where we find the owner of a building because the firefighters >> you don't have that here. >> Well I but if you have an apartment building and they've got to walk up three floors carry someone down three floors repeatedly con that's that's an issue. I don't know where we address that or >> but lift lift assist is basically um they don't necessarily get an ambulance to take them up. They're just picking them up. >> Like they fell out of bed. They couldn't get off the toilet. They couldn't felt they couldn't get out of their shower. They're not hurt. They don't need to go anywhere. They just need help getting back into their chair or bed or whatever. >> Are still running up? >> Oh, sure. >> Yeah. Right. Right. >> Um and then my my >> second or my third point would be um are most of these people, you know, like Peter was saying, sometimes they're staying a little bit too long in a situation they shouldn't be in. Is that because of financial reasons and then how billing them? Who's are they? >> Well, it would go through insurance or >> do we think they have insurance? >> Well, it's I don't know that um that the Medicare pays for lift assist. That's that's the thing. Um I'm pretty sure they don't. And so um >> so is the ordinance a moot point? I I don't know. Yeah, but nonetheless, it, you know, if they're living at home because they can't afford assisted living, I get that, but then they also don't have the expense of assisted living. So maybe after five calls, they're going to say, "Okay, um, I'm going to have to call a relative or or I'm I'm going to have to pay." >> I thought what I read on the packet, it it showed for the first through the fifth call, there was a charge, >> but we can change that. >> Yeah, we can change that, >> too. Yeah, >> that was Maple Plains and and that was also for the facility. So, Maple Plains only addresses um for the senior um assisted living facilities, but our our ordinance could say for residential properties, it's zero cost 1 to five a year. For for um assisted living, maybe they get >> I don't know how you would do it, but maybe then they would char be charged. >> Um >> yeah, >> you could follow this ordinance. So, I mean, if for assist, you could have two different sections if I may. Um, one section for residential properties and one for um assisted living facilities, >> even though we don't have any. And you could follow you could have different fee schedules for each one. So, you could follow what kind of Maple Plane has here. >> Would would there be any question I guess so here's a couple questions. Um, how does this work if our ordinance is different than let's say what Mound eventually does? And, you know, does it matter? Will they be able to figure out who get who gets build? >> Well, we have to figure that out. We're the ones that would be doing the billing. Okay. So, it would be us sending an invoice to whoever it is. We'd get the report from mound. Okay. >> Um so, the ordinances wouldn't have to match up. >> Okay. And then, um the other question I would have is uh would it seem unfair that if you live in a residential home versus if you live in an an assisted living facility that you get charged? I mean, >> yeah. They were living with without any assistance like you were talking about. >> They said they they were very they were happy to speak with us or with me and say >> in this in this fully independent living just like you're living away from >> right >> seems independent living should >> you have a higher standard of care. >> You could do like three or more so everyone gets two calls no matter where you live and then after that then it's an issue. >> Yeah. I like three strikes. >> You just have one ordinance not differentiating between the two. >> The only question I have is so when you say not differentiating so but let's say it's an assisted living and they have 50 people living there. Is it three calls or is it 150 calls? >> 150 >> because is it per person or per per you know per person then? So you'd have to be able to segregate that. I mean, same. >> We could we could we could differentiate between the two and define what residential means and we could have that be part of if you live in an independent living community but you don't have the ability to have lift assist that would fall under the residential too. So you could you could form it in that manner. >> Um we just you know >> we don't have an assisted living facility yet but like they're pretty regulated and there's clear boundaries in in each of the areas. So yeah, >> we could look at it that way. And um honestly, the fire department would know better than anybody as far as what where they're working at. And you know, they work with Presbyterian Homes very closely. They they've had a lot of meetings with them one-on-one to try to figure out this lift assist thing >> um with them just get called. >> There's another one in mound um isn't what is it called? B um or >> like on the corner there? >> No, it's on the um >> Harrison Bay. >> Harrison Bay. >> Thank you. That's also a um it's three stages. >> And yeah, it is. >> So, if I may, if we if we want to, you know, we're kind of just spitballing some ideas right now. If we want to look at an ordinance in the future, I kind of need a little guidance as far as framework and then we can develop something and bring it forward for probably another work session to see if it's what we like. There's no real urgency here. Um but it's just kind of an ongoing project that we could work on. Seems like there's maybe some appetite to move forward with something. Sure. Might as well now versus later. I mean, it's >> and we can always change the framework however we want, but I kind of just need a couple ideas on what you like and what would like what you'd like to see in the future organiz or um not nonassisted living. >> What do you call them? >> Independent living. >> Independent living. So, residential and independent living would be one to three or one to four. What? >> I 1 to three. um no charge after that. Um in a calendar year after that it's 250 um and then for assisted living um it would be 0 to3 then would be 250. I'm I'm just throwing something out and then after that maybe or maybe use um >> maple maple break >> for just use maple plains for the assisted living facilities. So for the back to the residential, so just for the tiers, we have 1 to three and then four to six or what are you thinking for the next tier? Um >> four to eight. Four to >> four to eight and then would you charge >> like 250 per call then? You can kind of follow the right. It would shift down 250. Y >> and then over over eight it would be 500. >> Yeah. >> If you have eight calls in a year. So then then the next tier would just be greater than eight. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Would be 500 per >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Okay. And then um assisted will follow uh the maple plane or >> right 1 to 5 250 6 to 8. Yeah. Do you know is Spring Park following the Maple Plane one? Is that their >> I know they were going to look at it. Um I don't know. I don't know if they passed anything yet, but I think we might be the first city that's kind of looking at it. It was I think given to us at the November meeting or the LA the last meeting of the year last year, October. >> Okay. All right. And maybe in the meantime, um, Navy Spring Park and our mound will come up with a draft of theirs that we could take a look at. >> Yeah, I'll throw something something together here. Um, >> see, we're in February, maybe April. I can get a draft, something like that. Unless you want it sooner. We could do it in March, but we have >> not It's not urgent. I mean, >> okay. >> You want to implement it Jan one anyway. So, >> sure. >> The fall calendar year. Okay. And then we have um the water bill adjustment. >> Yes. Um Madame Mayor, members of city council, uh we discussed this uh at the February 2nd meeting. I think we only had three individuals here at that meeting and um uh Mr. Christians came and kind of talked about the the request which then spurred uh an idea to evaluate a potential policy from a staff perspective. Um, right now we don't we don't have any discretion to adjust water bills or any utility bills. Um, what the policy does is is kind of gives a little framework for a bill adjustment. Um, we'd prefer to keep any bill adjustments out of our hands and more into the hands of city council just because then there's a framework. Um, so and this is the the the situation that this was developed um in in Lassour is a little bit different than the one here. um it was more related to a trailer park and a water service line than um like a water uh softener I think was the situation here. Um so it's just you know an example of a policy and maybe some framework that we could use if we choose to. So there's a couple things on the on the table, a couple questions I think we need to have answered. One um is related to Mr. Christian's uh bill reduction request. And number two is uh if we want to look at adopting a policy that's similar to the one that's in the packet, um we'd likely make some adjustments to it based on city council feedback. So, um we do have Gary here. I think, you know, I think we were going to have Mark here, um who's our in-house plumber, but he's out plowing snow now. So, um to answer any questions, you know, about what what may have may have happened. So, and we obviously have uh Mr. Christians here, too. >> So, um I'm going to say something. We need to have a if if we decide we are going to give um credits, then we need to have a a policy in place. Um because otherwise it's willy-nilly. Now, having said that, I don't think that we should have a policy that gives credit for faulty fixtures. I mean, when you think about it, I mean, again, and I you can disagree with me, that's fine. But when you think about it, when I talk about fixtures, I mean, it could be a a running toilet, it could be um a it could be a a water softener, it could be um a leaky faucet, it could be um irrigation u malfunction. I mean, there's so many things that that could be um if you will labeled fixtures. And then we have to consider um if you do this then how many more requests are you going to get and how are you going to prove that it was the city's fault or it was let's say negligence on the homeowner's part or just a a bad luck. I mean so it's it's a really really difficult situation. I understand that. But um it it's also a slippery slope. And then once you do it, as you know, Bob, as you know, sitting on the council, once you do it for one person, the next person comes forward and says the same thing. And then all of a sudden, now we're giving multiple thousands and thousands of dollars a year to credit to to people. I I I we need to be very very careful how we move forward on this. So for sure we need to have a policy in place if we're going to do anything. One of the things I would suggest if if we do a policy I can clearly state that if it's um um an a accident such as so I'll give you an example. My nephew and his family went on vacation in the winter. The day they left, after they left, a water line froze and broke and they they had like a 100,000 gallons flood their basement. Their basement was totally and they were gone for like 10 days. Something like that is beyond the homeowner's how do you say ability, if you will. >> You could then consider something like that. But when you have somebody, we recently, we don't have city water, so I can't tell you how many gallons it was, but we recently were gone and somebody a relative came to check on our house and used our toilet and flushed the toilet and the toilet ran for two weeks >> and I So for us, I mean, I don't know how many gallons it was, but it was a lot of gallons and I was more concerned about our septic system than our water, but you know, so how do you how do you justify saying, "Okay, well certainly is that I mean," and then the question is, "What if you got an astronomical bill from the gas company because you had a faulty furnace? Would you go to the gas company and would they give you a credit?" I mean, these are legitimate questions. Um, I think I think those are just legitimate questions. Um, so I think a policy is needed if we're going to make any kind of consideration. So, I'll give you two minutes, Bob, or less. >> Well, first of all, I'm very happy to hear that this doesn't happen very often. Uh, this is >> But it will happen more frequently. >> It has happened more frequently. >> It will happen more frequently. >> Well, I'm very happy to hear it hasn't happened in the past because, you know, previous city council. >> Yeah. Uh, unfortunately, I I I say this, but because of what happened in the over 100,000 gallons of water that ran through there, and of course, I went crazy right away. What happened? That's why I called the plumber out right away. And unfortunately, it doesn't happen to a lot of different people. Okay. Uh, there's a whole lot of people that have asked me, is >> that doesn't matter, Bob. I want to know. It doesn't matter what people have said to you. I want to know what your plumber said and then we can discuss it. >> Yeah. Okay. So, I I'm sorry it happened. I mean, I wouldn't be here. I'm really sorry it happened. And I would think that we would do something that you can participate in something to do some >> Okay. >> part of some responsibility. >> I I understand Bob. I really do. But we have to be careful because as you know we a slippery slope and everybody will we're going to have a lot more people in here asking for a reduction in their water bills especially since we have to raise our water rates. So um so here's my understanding and please correct me if I'm wrong. You had a a significant water bill in quarter three and you had and the plumber came in and fixed it and now you got another significant water bill in quarter four. But it's after the fact. And the other thing too, >> but you got another significant water bill in quarter 4. Is that correct? >> Well, it's all it all pertains to one incident, the initial one, because he fixed it and but it ran for the water bill is adjusted. In other words, it was due yesterday. I brought my checkbook. I want to pay the bill. I brought my checkbook, but I wanted to get a I thought you could do something to help me with it. It's not the money. It's more the principal. I I understand, but we also understand and we've talked to plumbers that it couldn't possibly be the city's fault that your water softener failed or >> that went into it that kept it open. Um and and our water softener did something very unusual too not too long ago and we had water all over our basement floor and again I didn't go you know we took care of it ourselves because >> I wouldn't see it the responsibility of somebody with a pipe broke but thousands of gallons of water come in being in >> Bob I'm not going to argue with I'm not going to argue with you >> I'm not going to argue with you this isn't about that I wanted to find out what happened we know what happened it happened in in quarter three and then supposedly got fixed, but I understand that you had another water bill in quarter 4 that was also significant. So, it's really really hard for us to take this information and say, "Well, it was the water softener and it was the city's fault and >> it was a water softener." >> Okay, we'll we'll we'll give you that much. >> Okay. All right. Thank you. >> Sit down. We're not >> I have my checkbook, but I would like to pay the bill because it was due yesterday. Jasper said it would be okay if I'm a little bit late. Remember, I have a checkbook with me. I'd like to get it resolved and you will move on. >> Okay. Then I would say pay it. And if there's a credit that we decide on, we can do that later. But if you want to pay it today, that's great. You can do that. >> Well, it's due. That's why. >> Okay. >> Gary, do you have any um >> I have the part and the Mark walked me through it. So >> Okay. >> Oh, good. So, you did talk to Mark. He's he's water software qualified for the last 35 years. >> Okay. >> So, he keeps his license. That's his sideline business. He knows he knows a lot about software. So, I'm sorry I should print more off. But this is the internal diagrams of everything that is in Bob's >> pump his water soft. >> And I'll I'll add Mark did talk to your talk to Bob's. Yeah. On the phone. >> So, this is the main unit right here that was causing a problem. And what Mark said was, and he sees it a lot in well water, that these seals get eaten up. You can see there's a lot of them in here. >> Yeah. Because of the iron and and maganesees, >> even in city water, because in ours too, there's water. There's there's iron and there's manganesees and all that. Not so much anymore, but there used to be. But what happens is these start to break up and these are what get jammed in there. And when it gets in here, this thing lifts and these get stuck >> inside here as it holds it. Adjust it. He's seen it. He's seen it hundreds of times. >> So that's that's the cost. It's nothing in our water. It's the >> You need to sit down now. Bob, you need to sit down now. We will be done here soon and then you can talk to staff. >> So it's the breakdown of the of mainly the seals that are going. So Mark said it's it's very common. I mean that's a very common thing to replace. And he said, "If you do not replace this whole inner seal in here, this whole thing comes off. If you don't replace this piston, which can wear out and groove, you can see this one's been grooved here already. They eat up the they they'll eat up as much as of the seals, too. So >> where is that? Like if I'm looking at my water softener where >> So yeah, I'm thinking we should >> we just replaced ours. >> So this would be inlets coming in at the bottom. This would go down to your to the tank. Okay. >> And then up top here would sit the actual clock. >> Okay. >> So, this is the inside. So, in between what would sit on top of the tank and your clock up there. >> Okay. >> And then how often should you be um >> looking at that and replace >> I mean you look and I looked it up. I mean every run cleaner through your through your softener to clean it. >> Okay. >> And but Mark said I mean you know I mean it could go 10 years, it can go five years, it go a year. You know, that kind of depends on, you know, is it was it a flaw in the design? You know, when they built, was it, you know, was the quality not there? Did the plumber put in a cheaper part? He said there's a lot of things that weigh into that. But, I mean, it all kind of depends. It's a, you know, roll the dice, how long they last? It's like any going to last, you know, type deal. So, but yeah, that's what happens when that gets stuck >> and that's what holds the water open. So, when that gets stuck open, water just continuously cycles through. >> Okay. >> So, Gary, I have a question. So because Minatrista has so much u minerals in our water, this could happen to every single person on city water in Minotarista. >> No, with the with the treatment plant, we've eliminated a lot of it. I mean, there's not hardly we take through the process of ariation, the iron is reduced. Um manganese is taken out at the plant. >> Um you're always going to have the white residual that you see, the calcium buildup. You're always going to have that no matter what. Um, but as far as particles go, I mean, there's very little in our water anymore. It used to be worse. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. If you looked at the when we took old water meters out, replace them, the inside was just lined with gunk. >> Yeah. >> You know, but now with when we put the plant online, you know, did the major flushing at that time. We switched out meters. We, you know, we've done, we do flushing twice a year. We're not seeing a problem like that. So, >> and when did that go online? that went online in 2017. >> March March of 17. >> Yep. Full service. So, >> both the north and the south. >> So, then Mark said the other common problem that >> he sees with that that he gets calls on is bridging of the salt. >> So, in the tank where the salt is, >> oh yeah, >> it's the water comes in from the bottom to kind of, you know, what the salt does is help regenerate your um the mineral in the U brine tank or the it's the brine tank. that brine goes into the um filter media and that's what takes and cleans it out and it discharges it. So what it does is if you have salt it can bridge in there so the salt doesn't drop down and keep going. And when you get that well now it's not cleaning. So softener says hey it's not clean. It goes through another cycle and it keeps going keeps going. That's another common problem. I had that happen in Waconia. I mean that ran for an entire weekend I was up north. So I mean I've had the high water bill. So I think I was only a weekend when I came home. I could hear it running. Oh >> you know. So >> right. You can usually hear it running. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, but that's the 5600. I mean, he said and that's the most common head out there. That is the most common head. So, >> well, I I don't disagree that we need to have some kind of policy. So, um and I don't dis and I don't think um as Jasper said, we want to put it on the shoulders of of um staff to make those decisions. So, we could come back with a policy, but I I'm very very reluctant to say that it's going to cover fixtures unless there's unless it a fix a pipe broke or something during the winter months and you're gone. I mean, something like that might be, you know, you could consider, but a running toilet or a running faucet, it can you can man, you can really rack up the gallons. >> Well, even even a toilet running, even a running toilet will use a lot of water in a month. >> It will. Yeah. >> It's unbelievable. That's why, you know, we're out of die pass. We used to have them here and we should probably get some more appeal just to to do that. I mean, just a simple $10 flapper can save you hundreds of dollars. So, >> and you know, and I can I think Brian will agree with me. I think we've had people come in. Our biggest complaint, you know, is when the sprinklers run. So, I mean, they're going to have to deal with that if you're going to put a policy in to make sure that, hey, my sprinkler ran too long. Well, that's not our problem, you know. So, I mean, there's we've had that happen several times that people have complained about that. So I remember that. >> Yeah. I have a old building and I just had all the inner workings of the toilet replaced in the back of it in the tank and again it it stuck because this thing that goes up and down that makes the water. Okay. It it got um it got the white calcium on it. >> It stuck. My bill was normally $91. This is a charity, mind you. um two weeks I wasn't there. It was $795 and that was >> wow >> on me, >> you know. And so it can be devastating. So I know it's a devastating the only thing I would suggest is that the policy could say that we would allow the the homeowner maybe two months or whatever for payment. I don't know if that's something we want to consider a little bit of relief. I'm just I'm just asking for certain things. >> Well, we'll be switching to a monthly building so that we >> will help >> alert people faster, but as I understand in this situation, the city alerted you that didn't because you saw the high >> well there was there was the initial third quarter billing and then I think as you know Mr. Christian said there was some plumbing work done that sounds like it didn't quite fix it or something or >> take care of it and then there was another bill in the fourth quarter that was also high because it the software was still running is the way I understand it or how whatever the case was where there was the water going through the meter. >> So >> I I think it transcended Q3 and Q4. >> So it started in Q3 and then and then he got the bill and and then it continued in Q4. Gary, >> has it been fixed now, Bob? >> I'm sorry. What? >> Has it been fixed now? >> Yeah, it was fixed now when I got the this deal here. >> How did it get fixed? >> Uh, I had the plumber, Mark, and Gary knows who he is. He's talked to him. Come out. But what he says when I watched him fix it. First, I had to check everything because I said it was a huge problem. And then in the area where it goes into the softener there, there was particles that were in there that separated it, the valve or whatever you want to call it, and which made it run 247. And I I don't get down there that often, but when I did, I I went down immediately when I got the bill. I I had the bumper come out immediately when I got the bill. >> And then he replaced that valve or did you Okay. >> It had to be replaced because the particles it was it was bad. It was bad, >> Gary. Um, are you in agreement with the plumber, Bob's plumber? >> Do you all particles? >> Yeah, I'm sure there's particles in there, but it's not from our water. I'm I'm 99.9% positive there's not particles flowing our water. So, >> where would they? >> Especially inside, you know, this mechanism the way it is. So, >> well, where would they come from? >> The disintegration of the of the rubber in here, >> rubber gasket, >> you know, I mean, it'll get eaten up, he said, by chlorine and that stuff will eat these up, too. So chlorine is very cor I mean it's a you know it's a corrosive chemical. So I mean that's >> he did tell you the particles. He did show you the particles. I mean I seen them partic >> well there were particles. They whatever they came from there were particles. So what if we do or it's not a fixture but in this case if it's a unit the pump on the softener broke down you would get like a 50% reduction on well when we go monthly on the one month if it continues over a month then >> you don't know how much water the water softener has used versus your regular usage you know that's it gets really complicated >> they the resident would have to provide a bill from the plumber showing what was replaced, showing what the issue was. >> I'm just asking for >> I I >> we are >> But it was your fixture that malfunctioned and now you're saying it should be our responsibility and that that's what I'm having an issue with, Bob, because it wasn't our water that created the problem. It was your water softener and I have a real problem because what >> but that's what our experts >> but our pl our plumber is telling us that and so we're there's a conflicting um issue here. I mean your plumber says one thing because of course they want to blame the city and our plumber is saying that's not possible. I'm I'm thinking 35 years of expert knowledge and experience with water softeners. That tells me a lot. And so I'm saying, wait a second. Your fixture was the problem, not our water. And now you want us >> I don't want big deal. I just want >> Now you want us to give you a credit because you had a faulty fixture. And that's what I'm having a problem with. What if somebody comes and what if you know Miss Claudia says, "Hey, I have a faulty toilet." >> All right. So, >> so council, that's just my opinion. My opinion. >> I'm sorry, but I would agree with her. I mean, we didn't help out people that had the um their sprinklers running and I remember that that that you know, they spent a lot of money on on water and you know the uh department came out and helped them you know solve that problem, >> right? which I think is a great function of of government. But I yeah I I just think we just can't do this because it we won't be able to decide each one fairly and >> right. Anybody else? Brian, >> I concur for the same reasons that um Peter um expressed. Okay, Claudia, I have to trust our Bob is an expert, but I have to trust our city saying we have water that's rich in minerals and you have to I I think this would open up a huge Pandora's box because I don't know I I I know almost everyone I know has had a situation like this happen at least once in their life and it's terrible. >> Yeah. and it feels terrible and I would love to, but I'm here to be a good steward over the city's funds. I I I'm I'm I'd love to pay for half, but I just I No one has proven to me that it's our fault. >> If it's our fault, yes, we should pay the whole thing, but I don't think it's our fault. >> Okay. Anything else? >> So, the plumber So, I have a problem with >> Yes, you do. No, you have a problem with your water softener, Bob. >> Well, that's so >> Yeah. Well, >> that is >> Yeah. And again, being on the city council, you know, as Claudia said, we have to be good stewards of of city funds. We have to be consistent in our in our findings. We have to be con cognizant of of future possibilities. So, for all of those reasons, I don't think we can I think you're going to have to pay the bill. And if you don't like it, you'll have to take it to court. I don't recommend that >> because you won't win. >> There's a check for the entire bill there. I'm very, very sorry of the decision that is being made along with a number of other people because whatever you were going to give me credit was being donated to the food shelf. >> Well, >> it wasn't the money, it's the principal. >> Okay. >> The food shelf would be very disappointed. >> Okay. Thank you, Bob. All right. Um, so just to the other aspect on here, um, no to doing policy. >> Well, I don't know how you do a policy. >> Yeah. >> Like I I just don't know how we do it. >> Yeah. It it is, if I may, it is challenging, right? Because you could somebody could, you know, use a lot of water for irrigation, but say that their water softener failed, right? Like there's every one of them would come to city council like this. So there'd just be you'd have to kind of be the the judge and the jury on it and determine if you you know believe the person that's applying. Um the one thing with the policy the way the lassur one was written is that you get basically one and done. So one time adjustment >> but we have 2300 accounts. So think about it if 2300 >> accounts everyone quarter three this year says oh no but >> no exactly. So >> including myself. >> Yeah. It's it'd be it'd be challenging. Um, it's not that we we couldn't do it and we likely wouldn't get that many requests because it takes a lot of time and a lot of effort to do it. So, it's um >> I think I think Kathleen has a point and so if >> unfortunately 100,000 gallons of water that was wasted and I'm assuming now that it's a dead issue and as I used to say at the bat that he's saying >> right correct correct correct okay sorry Bob. All right. So, no policy. We'll just deal with them one-on-one um as they come. >> Okay. All right. Thank you. Uh with that, we'll move on to the St. Bonnie Fire Department budget reconciliation request. We've done this before. >> Um >> I'm sorry, Lisa. Forgive me. >> Oh, Madam Mayor. Okay. So, we don't want to adopt a policy like Lassour. I think that was really clear like we're not touching your water bill unless I like that policy. You don't like that? >> Why not? Is it difficult to do that? >> That seems real clear. >> Um well, it's not much different than if they just come to the city council meeting and and and you can address it one-on-one. You'd still have to do it. What the policy really does is it limit the this policy in Lassour. The whole point of it was to limit people from coming back to the city, multiple years, and requesting multiple years of um not at the same time, but multiple years of of bill forgiveness. Um because we were running into >> breathing that policy would make me go, "Oh, okay. It's a waste of my time. I'm not going to bug the city." >> That's you really. >> Well, I mean, okay, who I mean, does it cost us to implement that to have that letter? I love that. I would read that once and go, "Well, they're not going to pay for this. I'm done. Not going to go. >> You know, I think what Kathleen's point is, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that if you have this policy, then people might think they can come in. >> Good point. >> So maybe not having a policy and they still would have to come in and you know, >> I defer to your wisdom. Thank you. >> Okay, >> all right. There you go. >> That was >> Yeah, now thank you for hearing me. >> All right. Are we then we're agreed because that was painful. All right. >> All right. All right. Next. Um then the St. Bonnie. >> Yeah. >> Are we ready to move on? Let's go to >> Okay. They spent less with me. This is good. All right. Yes. >> Yeah. Madame Mayor, members of city council, um we get this request whenever uh the reserve fund is above 10% of uh or greater than the oper 10% above the great uh operating cost. Sorry. Um so this year the they finalized the 2025 revenues and expenses and they came in $44,367 um that would got added to the reserve fund that met the threshold of being 10% or greater than 10% over. And what they ask is if we want to either have it go into the reserve fund or if we want to have it be um re have a reduction of our our bill. And just a little history, generally we've always just put it in the reserve fund. Um, >> what is the reserve fund at right now percentage-wise of the let's say 2026 budget? >> Um, well, the reserve fund is at 102,000. >> Okay. >> Um, which is the budget I'm trying Brian has to do some quick math in his head of what 80% of whatever we pay this year is. Um, it's probably 20%. What is the I'm trying to think. I'm not sure. >> Okay. >> But it's it's a significant amount. The deal with St. Bonnie though too is they generally they pay cash for their equipment. So that's >> that was my next question. Right. >> And they just um they're not necessarily related to this, but that our council did approve the two duty officer vehicles. >> Okay. >> So, and they'll that'll kind of eat up the full 102 probably. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, >> well, they they also have a capital fund that they use that money for for for those types of purchases. The reserve is for they can move it into capital if they want. Um but it's just there for Okay. >> reserve. >> So, of the four So, it's a $44,000 um amount that could go into the reserve fund or if we request it, we would get 80% of that. Actually, 72% of it. No, we would get the 44,000 is our portion of what's left over. Yeah. So, if you look at the the letter, you can kind of it's kind of there's a lot of numbers in there. >> In the past, it's only been like a couple thousand smaller amount. >> And so, we it's been pretty small. >> So, we've just said fine, just keep it. But if if they have a capital >> if they have a capital budget and then this reserve fund is for something else, I guess we'd have to find out what the reserve fund is for. >> In the past, he's used it for um they like their um >> their furnace. >> Thank you. The furnace in the garage. They needed to do that. They did the concrete outside of this the building because it was all eaten up. So, um, in the last few years, he's used it very judiciously to cover stuff that wasn't budgeted that needs to be done. >> Um, do they have any plans for 2026 for using the reserve fund? >> Cuz if it's at 102 right now and then this other 44,000 goes into it, you know, we're talking nearly 150,000. >> I don't I'm just wondering. I'm just >> I don't believe so. Um, they will be getting a new chief at some point though, >> right? >> So, I don't know. >> So, I almost have the question if they Yeah. Yeah, I mean if they've got good plans for it, it's great to help reduce like next year's budget or keep next year's budget at a good level. But if they're starting to like just build it up, it's no different than like our general fund policy, you know, that 40, you know, I've got, you know, if we start to get too high, it's like do you spend down a little the fund balance to, you know, to offset needing to, you know, in a case charge our taxpayer, you know, our residents as much in taxes, you know, so the same type of thing you charging >> the partners in the fire or us, I guess, and townships. Well, here. Yeah. I mean, I'm fine using it to pay off our bill. >> Well, and then we do have that request for the new laptops for the police department, which u >> And that was budgeted, too. That was budgeted. Okay. >> That was budgeted. But I I I would be because it's a fair amount. Um I would be more comfortable having them use it towards our our um contract. I mean, am I makes sense >> again? I mean, last year we rolled it over and then um Watertown Township and um Lake Township took theirs towards their contracted amount. So, I mean, and I we rolled ours in and I think it was a couple thousand or something, four or 5,000 or >> No, it was it was it was five figures last year, too, I think. >> Was it? >> Well, then I think we should >> maybe timed maybe. >> Yeah, I'm thinking 44,000. That that'll cover a lot. I mean, >> especially since we want to hire another police officer and that wasn't budgeted for I I think we should Yeah. put it towards our contract this year. >> Well, the police officers budgeted this year. >> Yeah, it was more last year. >> It was last year. It wasn't. Yeah, >> I thought we had one budgeted. I thought we're higher. Well, anyhow, >> we have we we have 16 authorized police officers. Last year we were at 15. We authorized 16 without >> You're correct. We threw it in at the end and adjusted things. Yes. >> Yes. Yeah. So, but but in 2026 it's fully budgeted for >> Okay. Okay. Um All right. So, we'll we'll just use it towards our contract. Is everybody okay with that? >> Okay. Good. Thank you. Um anything else that >> Okay. >> So, we can uh be adjourned and then at 6:30 we will be back here. Hopefully not have a big crowd. I I I can't see across the parking lot. I know. I know. Earlier, Jasper asked if Sarah should be here for a regular meeting. I said, "It'd be really good if she's here in person." 4:00 I called and I said, "Tell her she can she can she can participate remotely." So, um anyhow, all right. With that, is there a motion to adjourn? >> So moved. >> Thank you, Miss Ruffkin. Is there a second? Thank you, Claudia. All those in favor signify with I. >> I. I. All those opposed. Motion passes by vote and we will be back for a regular meeting at 6:30. It's not winding down.