I have 7 o'clock. We will call the town board meeting for February 3rd, 2025 to order. First item to approve is the agenda. Patrick. Yes. Uh Mr. Chair, before we get started, I would just uh tell everybody here attending that if you are in need of hearing assistance, we do have a couple of pieces of equipment on the back that you could utilize. Um, I would make a recommendation on under old business tableling uh the stop sign request as well as the speed limit request in lie of uh a little bit more information from legal. I will leave that up to the board as to whether or not you'd like to address that this evening or not. Well, I believe we're going to have neighbors here already that weren't given advanced notice that we're going to table it. So, I'd like to keep it on. Okay. Uh obviously, we probably continue this, but I'd still like to get their folks uh on the record and so they they didn't make a trip or nothing. So, and I would have no changes. Mr. Chair, does the board have anything? I have none. Hearing none. I need a motion to approve the agenda. Move to approve the agenda. Second. All in favor say I. I. All opposed. Item three is uh approval of payment of the bills. Steve, you sign off. I signed off the uh payments and move to approve payment of the bills. Second. All in favor say I. I. I. All right. Item four is approval of prior meeting minutes. This is from January 22nd, 2025. Uh Mr. Chair, I'd like to add that there was a discussion about my being able to vote on BBT issues and it was clarified by our county or township attorney and I can vote. So, we need to make that correction. All right. Do you have anything, Steve? No. You want to approve the minutes with that correction? Yes. I'll make the motion to approve the minutes with that direction. I'll second that. All right. Motion made a second. All in favor? I I All right. We have four consent agenda items. Uh if the board has no issues with them, I would look just for a motion to approve. Looking for a motion to approve A, B, C, and D under number five. I'll second that motion. All right. All in favor say I. I. All opposed. All right. We're going to review item six. This is old business public commission or public safety commission. This is Peterson Road and Mayhagen Lane. Uh Patrick, you just want to give us a quick overview of this? Sure. We had um a couple of residents visit us at the safety commission last month, right Jim? Um requesting uh installation of a three-way stop at Peterson Road in Mahagen as well as adjusting speed limit 25 miles per hour through there. The uh commission sided with what was presented to them that evening as a recommendation to the board. um in further discussions here with our township attorney specific to the speed limit request. I believe we have limitations on what our authority is there. Can you explain that, Mr. Attorney? Yes, I can. Uh the authority for the township to adopt the 25 mile speed limit is under Minnesota statute 169.011 subdivision 64 and 169.14 subdivision 27. And here is the problem. Under subdivision 64, the street in question has to be residential street with no other commercial no other commercial uses. But more importantly, the length of the street can't be more than 1/2 mile in total length. And if I understand correctly, Peterson is road is longer than 1 half mile. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's almost a mile. In which case the board lacks the authority to establish a 25 mile speed limit. That's on Peterson. What about Mayhagen? Mayhagen is less than half less than a half mile long. Yes, you could do that on Mayhagen. All right. Well, I guess uh Patrick, you received a call from the chair. Yes. Of the public safety commission and his reasoning, they want to see it back to them. Yeah. And mostly it's uh just to formalize uh further evaluation by approaching neighbors and looking a little bit more into statutory requirements about speed limits uh as well as three-way stops. And one other one other final point, Mr. Chair, if it does come back, if you're going to intend to adopt it, it'll have to be done as an ordinance, not a motion or a resolution. That was the further. Yeah. All right, Steve, questions, comments? No, I mean I if they want it back to get more more information, particularly the legal side and and ordinance doesn't just happen overnight. No, it's a 60-day or 60 to 90day process. Yep. Um I mean this is not no offense, it's not really pressing that it has to be done in the next two weeks. So I I think it should be tabled and brought back to the I public safety. I agree. All right. All right. I know there's some neighbors here from this area. If you want to come up to the podium, at least give your name and address. We'll get your record uh or your statement for the record if you want to speak now. Otherwise, we're going to see this in a couple months. So, it's it's up to you if you want to talk to about it now or not. And can I ask one more request? Are we just talking about the speed limit or the stop sign also? I think we can combine them both. So, if you got one point for one and not for the other, say what your I think it's a general comment. Okay, good. Uh Steve Pascet, 5441 Peterson Road. My wife and I have lived there for 35 years or so. So I think I'm a senior on the road. So it used to be dirt. It was that way. Beth was on the planning commission. Welcome to the team. So and so here we are. We meet again. Uh I think that generally has the traffic increased on our road. Yes. Has it been respectful? Absolutely. I think it I feel that it's a little bit targeted towards our two neighbors down the road. American Pro Siding and a North Oaks Lawn Service. Uh they have vehicles with trailers generally that go through the neighborhood. Nothing but respectful. We've always gone on a firstname basis. Meet them. Introduce yourself. Ask them respectfully if you have an issue with it. Nothing but great. Super neighbors. That's all I got to say. I I don't More laws and stop signs and speed limits. What uh Peterson Roads never had a speed limit sign on it as it was always dirt. So, you know, it's assumed 30 miles an hour is the acceptable speed limit on dirt. So now I I guess I just don't see it. I've yet to see any of the neighbors walking their dogs and kids and strollers. I've never seen anyone jump for safety. It's not just doesn't happen. So that's it what I got for you. All right. Thank you. Anyone else? My name is Linda Price. I live at 5425 Peterson Road. Um my concern is the statements of the increased traffic, foot traffic, generally dog walkers, um babies in strollers, that sort of thing. Well, the development um is 50 plus. So obviously there shouldn't be a bunch of kids in that development unless it's grandkids visiting and that means they're not living there like at my house. Um we have total tripled our foot traffic on Peterson Road since that development opened. And it's no surprise to anybody that none of us on Peterson Road even wanted that development. More or less that street to even come through. But life happens and it happened. And so the traffic they're getting on Mahagan is the same traffic we're getting. And a lot of that traffic is coming from Pine Hill Farms across the street of H2 because I watch it. I watch the dog walkers come by, go back out, people with strollers, and they're walking past Peterson or down Peterson, past our homes, and now they have even more place to go because it's all paved and they can walk around the townhouse and that's the route. So they're not getting any more traffic than we are. and we're getting it going in and then back out. So, I don't think it's actually the traffic in the town homes that you guys have that the the kids or the strollers. Maybe you're out having a friendly, you know, night walk. Great. We all like that. Or you're walking your dogs and you're going back home. But a lot of this traffic is coming from across H2. They come down, they go back out, and then they use that uh path around the that pond area down there on the other side of H2. So, I don't see I think it's a waste of money obviously to me to put stop signs in and I think it is targeting the neighbors at the end the two businesses and those guys have been very respectful and they do go slow and everybody knows I drive the school bus and I come come home every day for lunch for an hour or two. Never drive 30. If you get in your car and you come down Peterson and you take a left to head to Centerville on Mahaggan, it takes you to their mailboxes or to where the court is to get up to 30 m hour. So, I don't think people are driving even the the residential street limits of 30 m hour. And I know the landscape company and those guys don't cuz we've all asked them. And anybody that's been around that neighborhood for a long time knows that I was the famous green guy out there with a sign that said slow the f down on the sign. And I think everybody around there is respectful. So I don't see why we would need stop signs. Obviously if you're a a good driver, you should be slowing down to make a right or left turn to begin with. And there is a stop sign coming in from Centerville to Peterson Road. Um, I would say dead end the dang thing like it was supposed to stay. We didn't ever want it open. Peterson Road residents didn't even want it opened. You guys opened it up. So, welcome to the neighborhood. I mean, that's what it is. It's your traffic. It's our traffic. It's the neighbors on the other side of H2 coming down. That's all I have to say. Thank you. Anyone else? Rick Ringle, North Oaks Lawn Service, 5566 Peterson Road. Um, I guess I don't really understand what a lot of this is about. 25 miles an hour down that road. You don't drive that. We We never go over 20 miles an hour. So, change it to 25. I couldn't care less because that's never going to happen. I just don't understand what the drama is. So, we drive through that neighborhood only when we go north to Rap Farm one day in the morning on Tuesday. Every other time we go south because we work in North Oaks. So, I don't understand what all the hubbhub is about the traffic through the neighborhood. Now, if I drive there personally in my truck or one of my employees does, who's going to mandate that? So, you're going to say this car can go in and this car can't and this car can't. Well, then you can't come on Peterson Road then because you don't live on Peterson Road. I mean, the whole thing seems a little ridiculous to me to be honest with you. I don't understand what the difference is. So, I have a conditional use permit. I've been there for now 12 years. There's never been an issue. We go less than 20 miles an hour. So, if you don't like it, I'm sorry. I don't know what to tell you. It's a township road. It's plowed by the township. has curbs, gutters, black top. You can't tell me whether I can drive on there. I can't. So, if the three neighbors get together and we're going to put a blockade up because you can't drive past here, that's ridiculous. So, that's all I have to say. Thanks, Rick. Anyone else? All right. Hearing none, I have to admit, full disclosure, I live on that road, so I understand the the the history of it. I've been there over 20 years now. Uh when that road was first gone from gravel to pavement uh with a conscious decision not to put a sidewalk in there, keep a narrow road and a sidewalk. It was taking too much space. So we made the road a little bit wider so it would give room for walkers, dog walkers, bikes. Um still never really had a lot of traffic. We still very rarely I mean in the summer we get more foot traffic but living on that road I don't I don't see um putting a speed limit sign is going to help. If you want a residential road and somebody goes by you at 15 miles an hour that seems fast especially when you have kids. 15 miles an hour seems fast. So 30 is not going to slow down somebody who tends to speed. If you have speeders in your neighborhood it's your neighbors. This is not a cutthrough spot. This is where somebody's trying to avoid one stop sign on Centerville and H2. They're not jumping one stop sign to hit two more. So that argument, I guess, doesn't follow. I understand why public safety would like to see it back because for this reason, some of the neighbors weren't informed of what was being propositioned here. So I I am in favor of this going back. And if if there are still any more comments or somebody who couldn't make this meeting, at least all the neighbors that are affected are are con uh connected to this and they'll be informed of when the next meeting for the public safety commission will be. Sure. And also, I mean, as Chad pointed out, we might not even have the authority to with the speed limit. Yep. So, and I mean, there's other signage you can put slow down for kids, not a throughway. There's there's certain things we can do, but it it maybe should be looked at a little closer. And like I said, I'm not sure how this slip through the cracks, but when these uh little areas come up for discussion, I'd like to make sure that all the neighbors that are affected are at least contact. That's what the commission does. We just in motion for that this time. All right. So, hearing that and hearing no other comments, uh thank you folks for getting it on the record. I'm looking for a motion to continue this until or to send this back to uh legal and the safety commission, which will be the first Thursday of March. I'll make that motion to uh send it back to the safety commission for legal and further discussion. I'll second that. All right. Motion made a second. All in favor? I. Thanks, folks. All right. Moving on. Uh item B. This is um Michael Dunham, uh Burchal Drive, request for variance. Uh who's going to take this? Thank you, Mr. Chair. My name is CJ Sykes. I'm here on behalf of Evan Mson Township Planner. You've seen this variance request once already, as has the planning commission, so I will keep it brief. If there's anything that you'd like expansion on, please let me know. The applicant is requesting two after the-act variances. One is for the driveway to be set back at 0 ft and the other is for an imperous surface coverage of 33.1% of the lot. The applicant's contractor installed the driveway prior to receiving a permit from the township and the building department notified the property owner in August of last year um that the permits were never issued. The planning commission reviewed this request at their November meeting. A motion was made to recommend approval and a motion was made to recommend denial. Therefore, it was forwarded to the town board with no recommendation. Then the town board reviewed it at the December meeting. This request was tabled to give the planning commission opportunity to rediscuss and look into the request further. At the January planning commission meeting, the commission reviewed the request again and recommended approval with the with the conditions listed in the staff report. We have a resolution of approval and denial with findings for you tonight. So, we can go over that a little bit later so you know what your findings will be. That recommendation from the planning commission was a 423 vote. Four yays, three nays. In table 71 of the township zoning ordinance, it regulates the lot size and setbacks. The minimum sideyard setback in the residential one zone is 10 ft. While the minimum amount of green space or imperous surface or pvious surface, excuse me, is 70% of the lot, meaning it's limited to 30% imperous surface area. This would be a 10-ft variance. The township also requires the 30% of a lot to be pvious. This would be a variance of 3.13%. This impervious surface area was pre-nonforming as well. So, prior to the addition of the driveway, it was still over the limit, but it was a legal non-conforming before the ordinance was established that way. In previous meetings, it was discussed what lots are nearby that might look similar with the small setbacks. In your staff report on pages four and five, there's there are two tables. The first shows driveway setbacks and impervious surface coverage on other Birch Null Drive properties. So, as you can see, many of them are less than 3 ft from the side yard setback or the side property line and many are over the 30% impervious surface coverage. the ones with asterisks. Note that in the Shorland Overlay district, it's actually a limit of 25%, which many of them are over that limit as well. At the moment, there has have been no new staff comments since you last saw the request. And I'll briefly go over the variance criteria, which will all need to be met or discussed to approve a variance. The property owner must propose to use the property in a reasonable manner not permitted by official control. The plight of the land owner is due to circumstances unique to the property. It's called a hardship. The variance does not alter the essential character of the locality. Economic considerations alone do not constitute practical difficulty and practical difficulties are not do include direct sunlight solar for solar systems. That's not applicable in this case. On pages five and six, you have a list of the findings to approve a variance. I won't read all 11 unless you would like me to, but the following conditions of approval were recommended by the planning commission at their last meeting. The applicant's request shall adhere to the survey that's dated October 1st, 2024 and received by the township on October 29th, 2024. The applicant shall remove approximately 660 square ft of impervious surfaces currently located in between the garage and the south side of the lot line. I have a map I can show to better display what that looks like. The area in pink here screen is the existing patio that's within the setback. The blue is all of the existing patio and the red is the extension within the setback. This patio to the rear, if removed, would bring the property into compliance with the impervious surface requirement. It would bring it down to about 28% which is under the required 30%. The maximum 30%. The third condition is that the applicant shall pay all fees and escros associated with the request. Again, I have resolutions of approving and denying the variance with findings when you are ready. Are there any questions? Well, Steve, you were at the money commission. Yes, I I there I was there. there was a lot of discussion as it related to this. Um being it was the second time around. Uh there still was the same questioning. Um so uh we did not have a large number the first time around. That's why it was brought back so that everybody had a fair chance to have some discussion. Um and it was a four to three. Three people felt that exactly that we should stick to the ordinance that it was an after the-act situation. The other three felt that with changes um that he was recommending they would do would allow us to just pass on the ordinance requirements. So that worked out. Do you have any other questions? Uh, no. I just to be clear, um, Chad, these out of non-conforming neighbors aren't really relevant to making a decision whether to grant a variance. Correct. They're not. Yeah. Unless they were unless they were the variances were approved at the same night, same time. Other than that, no, they are not at all relevant because that uh was a discussion item and I want I I said they really did not apply. Now you're correct on that. Okay, Beth, do you have any questions to staff? Um, no, actually, but I have seen the property and I actually voted against it in November because I was still on planning commission. But when I one of the things I can tell you about the neighborhood is when I was over there, the contours are really interesting. There's a lot of undulation as you if you'd have it. So when you looked at this property, um taking away the the you know improving it in the back doesn't really help cuz the front if as you drive by you would look at it and say if you're going to do any work this is where the improvement should happen is where you know it's out of compliance. I mean to have it at zero. I couldn't see it because when you'd look at it, that's the first thing you'd think of. And I'm curious down the road. Let's say when people are gone and they've moved on, I think that would be something we'd ask them to fix later on. So it seems kind of foolhardy to not correct the problem now and wait for, you know, I think if we grant the variance, you're not going to be able to go back and have someone uncorrect or undo it. I just think it, you know, like families aren't always going to live there and I think it was a family situation and please understand this isn't personal I'm kind of looking at it from the aspect further down the road I think this could be an issue for a new owner. So I would I would be inclined to stay with my denial. Well, I believe the applicants are here. If you would like to approach the podium and get your name and address if you got any comments or help state your case on this. Sure. Thank you. I'm Mike Don. I live at 4025 Virginal Drive, the property in question. And yeah, I appreciate your comments. I appreciate your concerns. Uh basically what happened here and this this came up at the planning commission in excruciating detail was that we had hired a contractor. We asked them to put this in. We assumed everything was good and the prop and the the contractor went ahead and put in put in the uh the driveway. So we did all of this in good faith. And when the uh uh when when we looked at the whole thing, there were a few different things that came up that I think will directly address some of the concerns. Um the first one is our proposed our proposed correction to this would both decrease the amount of encroachment on the setback by removing a much larger piece of concrete and replacing it with a permeable uh patio. Are you talking about the red dotted line there? I'm sorry. You talking about the red triangle line there at your on your driveway? No. So the red the red triangle is the part in question and if we were to remove the back patio which is the blue and purple okay would would first first of all that would reduce significantly reduce the amount of of permeable surface within the setback area. So it's a net improvement on the overall conformance of the lot. As far as the uh impermeable it would completely eliminate the need for that variance. So, I feel like we're we're offering something that would actually be a net gain to the township in terms of the ecology and and improving all that. Secondly, one of the issues we put this in in the first place is because we back our trailer back there all the time and as a result, the grass has died and we're having erosion. And so the second point I'd make is that by having that in there prevents the grass dying and having more erosion and having our lot go into the street. So it improves things from from that perspective. So as far as the specifics of of the variances again we're rem reducing the setback uh encroachment and we're reducing the uh the u impermeable issue. We're addressing erosion. The third thing is the safety. Uh we have a bridge that connects the two houses and my folks and I go across that bridge every day. I plowed that bridge today with my snowthrower and my dad walked across it as he was walking his dog. We used the bridge every single day, multiple times per day. And for them to be able to step off onto a concrete surface as opposed to stepping off onto lawn means they're a whole lot less likely to trip. And so certainly safety is another issue that we have for having this in place. And in fact, we would be allowed a concrete pad for the end of the bridge regardless. So that actually would help strengthen the argument for leaving that concrete in place. Uh furthermore, the you know, we've taken a survey of all of our neighbors and they love it and they think it looks much better than it did in the past. and whether or not aesthetics matters to the board, it certainly matters to my neighbors and they would they would like to see the driveway as is. Uh, as I mentioned prior and as as was brought up, this this lot was built back in the 60s when we didn't the town didn't have any of these ordinances in place. this was county and similarly the uh uh the patio was added before the ordinances were in place and so so the net of it is the house was built within 10 ft of the lot line as it was the only way for us to get back to store our boat behind the uh behind the fence to have the snowmobile trailer behind the fence which we have to do during the winter because of a different town ordinance. this is our only access there is to to go right through that spot and to have it paved makes it a whole lot easier to do. Um in addition to that because this lot was laid out back in the 60s there's no easement for the township in place and so what we have in place is an encroach encroachment agreement between uh between my myself and my parents who are here tonight uh stating that they're okay with it. Uh so that will address that and that's something that we can certainly file with the county again just as the variance would make it permanent. The encroachment agreement uh filed with the county would also make it permanent which takes away that issue. Um furthermore the actual layout of the land there's there's a swale right there. So that's an area that's you know never going to be built in anyway. And so simply by having the driveway come up to that point doesn't impact the other house in addition. And so I think I'm to point seven now. Uh point eight is that we you know my parents house is in trust. So it's going to be coming to the family and so any issu future issues we're not talking about a few years down the road. We're talking about generations down the road. So again, we'll probably all be, you know, long gone. Just as I've lived on this street for 53 years of my life, my folks have lived on that street the same. Um, this is this is our home. This is this is what we're trying to do. Again, this is this is simply trying to make the best of a situation where unfortunately the contractor aired and we're trying to make it right by offering to go in and address a legal non-conformance from years ago to get you less pavement inside the setback, less per impermeable surface within the setback. So, we feel like we're we're putting our best foot forward on this one, and that's truly what what we had in mind with all of this. Chad, do you want to address the uh the filing of this? What did you call it? A encroachment filing. Encroachment agreement. I guess I'm not familiar with that. I think what you're what the applicants are referring to is the fact that they privately have agreed to allow the encroachment to occur, but a private agreement to allow an occur encroachment in no way supersedes the town ordinance. But is that something that would be filed with the county if Yeah, it's an encroachment. It's like an easement. It's basically an ement is what it is. Yeah, an ement would be filed with the county to be effective, but it's not in perpetuity. I to be perfectly frank, I didn't worry about that because it doesn't really affect zoning issues at all. It could be in perpetuity. I don't know. Haven't read it. It's it's in the packet. Uh just a uh did Mike uh Johnson, the building inspector, obviously when you go too much hard service, we worry about runoff. We worry about where it's going. Is it it affecting a neighbor? Is it going to the street? Uh, does Mike Johnson look at this and and was he comfortable that this was not going to affect your runoff off the property? Yeah, because we've we've got the swale between the two properties. So, everything is running off to running off that swale and down to the street. Yeah. And I, you know, I hate to say it, but when when you apply for a variance, all the neighbors could love it, we could deny it. All the neighbors could hate it, we could approve it. So, so I'm I'm glad that you've talked to the neighbors and everybody's on board with this, but that usually is a just a a fluff. We have to we have to try to follow our ordinances and sometimes the character of the neighborhood does come into play and when you get older communities like the township is, we've got brand new developments and old converted cabin. So, we try to take that into account when we look at these. I I guess I I struggle. I've been in construction my whole life and it bothers me that a contractor would do this, but it stuff happens. Um, now obviously I think we know where Supervisor Artner is sitting on this. Steve, well, my my real concern is, and it's an after the-act situation, and as I said to you when you were here before the board the last time, is that you do have a remedy, might not win, but you have a remedy to go after, and that you got a contractor that did not follow the rules and and he he put in a driveway, which was not permitted with a pro by our ordinance, and it's after the fact, and I I'm not comfortable with it because for the same reason you just said, we have ordinances. Why have them if we're not going to follow them? Plain and simple. Mr. Chair, if I may, I just took a quick read through the encroachment agreement. It's not an easement. It's a license. There's a there's a big difference legally. A license can be revoked at any point in time. Well, I get back to Beth's point then then it could be corrected then if the license was pulled, but is that's something we want to kick down the road or not? Well, uh, thanks Mike. Is there anyone else that wants us to speak to this? Uh, neighbors or anyone? Oh, we had we had some neighbors last time. I think you recall Doug, my next door neighbor Doug came and certainly we, you know, if we extend this, I can bring more and more neighbors. I do have my parents right here. They're happy to share their thoughts in a moment. I would also comment that some of the folks on the planning commission uh had had some comments as well. And the the comment there was that within, you know, give give the concrete a year to age and nobody would even know that there was an issue with it because it's been because it looks like the rest of the neighborhood. And certainly when we look at other properties on our street, and I understand that this may not matter, but it's worth pointing out that as you know, as the findings were were brought up, there are plenty of lots just on our street that either are over the lot line or at the lot line, some of which have been done within the last 10 years. when we go one street over to Portland Avenue. Similarly, there's another there's another property that but most of those were actually retaining walls. I actually I drove the neighborhood today and most of that what had to do with the fact that you had you've got some unusual contours in your neighborhood and you you know you don't actually yours is relatively flat but it was retaining walls and I can see where that was an issue because there was such a difference but honestly I you know I get where you're coming from. Um, but I can The other thing I'll I'll say to you is, um, both my husband's parents and my parents are both gone. I've dealt with three houses and you don't end up keeping those houses. And, and I don't really want to hurt your feelings at all, but I just see this as an issue for somebody who isn't going to have the same kind of relationship with their neighbor next door, you know? So, then it's kind of a an odd issue. And that would be one of the things I'd consider. Sure. You know, I would also point just to finish my point on Portland. They did they did theirs within the last 10 years and it was a gravel that they paved over that is very similar situation ours that it's a relatively flat. It's right the third house in from the end of the block. And usually when you have especially culde-sacs, you can't help but encroach into sideyard setbacks when when the driveways come down to a point. But when you have a lot that's fairly sizable, and granted they could have placed the house a little better back then, but it it's hard to justify any of these variances when you've got such a nice big lot and then you're you can only put so many potatoes in one sack. The board really appreciates you, you know, pulling up this art surface to make it impervious and that does help tremendously on the the the variance request. Uh but that sideyard it's just it's it's tough for us to to jump over it. I don't I don't like to say the word precedence but people use these things against us all the time. Even though it shouldn't hold any bearing they will next month somebody's going to come back and you did that. I want that. Sure. At the same time, if you look at the shape and the amount of encroachment into the setback, what we're swapping out is something that runs right up along the property line, the whole length of it versus something that's tapering away. Again, this is actually making it more conforming as far as the setback goes. And obviously, I've, you know, over explained the permeability. Sure. So I I see it as a net improvement for the township that you know basically what what I'm offering up is to make the situation better than what it was in the past. Yeah. And foresight that but that still could have been done with pavers or some other remedy versus having it solid concrete which is now in hindsight. But all right. Uh any other comments or questions for us? Want to say anything? All right. If no one else, uh, come on up. I'm the next door neighbor. We need your name and address. Harold Dutam and 4015 Burchchnull Drive. Um, there are several problems that have occurred with this and number one, there's more space in the back of of the property than you would realize because of the way that it's contoured and there's a I don't know what you call it, but a a an area that's raised so it looks like and there are trees and things in it so it looks like it's the end of the property but it really isn't. And then the other thing is um not to be negative but when this was happening um a fellow came that was the inspector and they were working on the driveway and there was a problem with his communication with the person who did the driveway and I happened to be out on my driveway listening to him yell and berate the people who were working on the driveway, which I thought was terribly unprofessional, but also um didn't stop them from finishing their work. But it was after the fact and it was a problem with with the uh communication between that person and the people who were doing the driveway. So as I see it, there are are quite a few things that are problematic. And you did mention, and rightly so, that um there's no reason to believe that this property would not be sold to someone else. However, it is in our trust and and we have grandchildren who are just dying to get their hands on it. and and they're dying. They very much would like to live right there in our house. So that's that's another another thing and that's adding many years to the situation and and their children too. and we have younger grandchildren from uh our other son who lives in Monomida who would love to move in to our situation. So we know that there are a lot of people in the family who would would take this on as a project. So well we we appreciate that. We like to see long-term township residents. Yeah. But but we have to get back to the fact that this whole process was done out of sequence, out of ordinance, and now we're just trying to do the best we can with the situation. Yeah. And part of that problem was the person from the township that came in not knowing that this was happening and hadn't come to inspect it. Well, was there a permit issued? No. No. That's the problem. You didn't have the problem. There was no permits. There was no permit everli there and I fact after the fact. Okay. The permit had been applied. He had applied for for the permit that came and dug up my driveway. And then as I said at the committee meeting we he he asked me about it. He said it's not approved yet. And I said well what's the issue? And he said well you've got the setback. I said we've got an easement with my folks. And I said okay. So I again we did this in good faith. I thought that that was what we needed and I was I left it to the contractor work. I spoken with him. He had obviously applied for the permit. But normally you don't begin work until you get the permit. I mean it's just you know that's just I hate to say but that's kind of common knowledge that you can't start without if I may. You know, you're you're making a fundamental mistake here is you can't grant an easement that's in violate that allows a use in violation of the ordinance. You can't privately negate an ordinance and that's what you tried. I understand what you tried to do. It was done in good faith and I appreciate all that, but I'm just telling you that you can't do it the way you did it. The issue here is we we did this in we didn't know that the contractor didn't have the permit when he showed up with cement. Okay. Well, we understand all that and it sounds like there were a lot of missteps here. I I'm not going to speak to who said she said. That's not our job right here. Our job is to correct a situation. So, you know, we can all look back and go should have, should have, could have, would have. It's a little late for that. So, we we need to get this thing moved on and get it it get it settled. Do you have any other comments, ma'am? No, not right now. Okay. Is there anyone else? All right. Hearing none. Um Steve, you uh obviously you have kind of the pulse of the planning commission. Uh and getting back to variances, it used to be hardships. It used to be um you know my property is not as nice as yours so I should get a break. That's not the case anymore. Variances are now considered reasonable use of the property and and that's how you have to approach in a variance. And this is more than reasonable. You're you're taking advantage of a pretty good sized lot and you're encroaching on a sideyard setback that's not part of our ordinance. But and like I said, we appreciate you trying to pull up that that hard surface to make the the 30% work. Uh it's just we step on this and then we're going to get stepped on. So personally, I I have to agree with the other board members. Uh you really should have this contractor come out and correct his mistake. Yes. And and for that reason, um I move to deny the variance request. I'll second. All right. Motion's been made and second. Uh do you want to go with that one resolution for denying? I do for the reasons quoted in the resolution denying it that the impervious surface has been exceeded and it doesn't alter the car the reasonable use of the property as is. All right. Motion's made in second. All in favor say I. I. I. All opposed. All right. Sorry, folks. All right. We're going to move on. We have a public hearing for Silver Fox area street improvement. I am going to need a motion to wave the reading. I'll move to wave the reading that it was properly published. Few more seats up here, folks. Just open up if you'd like. I'll second. All right. Motion made a second. All in favor say I. I. I. I. All right. I need a motion to open up the public hearing. I'll move to open up the public hearing. I'll second. All in favor say I. I. I opposed. All right, Larry, are you going to go over this? Yes. Sounds like we have a we have a large crowd just waiting on every breath. Yes. Um I'm trying to share the PowerPoint CJ did it just fine. Larry, I know I am on the Oh, technology is great when it works. I think I got it. All right, there we go. Oops. Hold on a second. I don't know why it's not sharing the Okay. present. There we go. Sorry about that. Thank you. So, this uh this item is for the Silverf Fox Area Street improvements project. Um I'm going to go over some some basics and then we'll get into some of the costs and uh some of the public comments we received throughout the process. So, the little map at the corner here shows the project area. It's uh the Silver Fox side, Jenny Lane, um Richard Street, um Christine, um that area as well as the Taylor Avenue, 8th Street, Jefferson Court area. These were originally constructed between 1980 and 1996. Um the last overlay was performed uh in 2003 and 2004. Um, and then it's it's all residential property. It's a total project length of 2.5 mi. And we have pavement ratings of uh between 2.2 and 3.2. Um, those ratings were updated from the the um 2020 uh 2021 evaluation. Um there's Batuminous uh street Buminous Street. There's u batuminous curb in areas that's failing or eroded. There's some some areas of this uh neighborhood have a concrete curb and gutter. Um the street widths vary. You can see 10 to 30 ft. And there's a variety of uh pavement depths as well. So I'm going to walk through this. I know the board has seen this in the past, but um it's a pavement degradation curve. So when when you build a street and if you did nothing to the street um it would follow this curve. it would just degrade over time due to to weather and loading. Um the township rates their streets at a scale of 0 to five. And we look at we evaluate um doing improvements at different intervals of the curve to try to extend the life of the street. And so this graphic on the right kind of shows a a traditional versus optimal life cycle of a street. And so that that red line is is similar to the the um curve to the left where if you do nothing to the street over the course of perhaps 30 years, it would degrade um to a um failure. Um and so then you'd have to do a costly street improvement to bring it up to um 100% and then it would degrade again following that red curve. What we've been trying to do and endeavoring to do with our street improvement program is to try to get um 50 to 60 years of life out of that initial investment. That that initial investment is the most costly investment of uh of the work. So we're trying to follow the blue curve. And so we do strategic seal coats and crack sealing along the way. And then about 20 to 25 years down the line, you do a mill and overlay, bring that condition back up, not quite to 100% but close, you do some crack sealing mill and overlay and then it would degrade and you could do another u mill and overlay in that life cycle. And that's kind of where we're at here with this neighborhood. We're we're in this zone here where we've done a a mill and overlay in the past and we're trying to get another cycle of improvements to extend that life of that initial investment. And really, if if the long term, if the U board follows this curve, the blue curve for our street improvements, um it'll save roughly 30% of cost over time. So that's what we're endeavoring to to undertake with our street improvement program. And now not all streets are created equally and they weren't built correctly to begin with at at times, but we're we're trying to get there with uh with our street program. So when we get when we uh when we begin to study the the neighborhood, we we look at a lot of data. We take uh your input, the the neighbors input, but we do a number of these steps. We um do soil borings and pavement cing to to understand the thickness and the the condition of that pavement. Um wetland delineations. We over do an overview of our our storm water in the neighborhood. It evaluate the utilities. Um we take um property feedback in the form of questionnaires and then our some of our our neighborhood meetings to generate feedback and then we begin to study those improvements and we uh uh perform cost calculations on the improvements and and options and um look at funding. How do we fund the project? Look at assessments and then schedule. Um in this neighborhood um we have several um properties in here 16 properties that do not have sewer and water in the neighborhood. They're uh on the Silver Fox Road area and the Jenny Lane north of Richard's Richard Drive. And so we also studied in this case um what it would take to at a high level um to improve make improvements to extend sewer and water and uh do street improvements um for the uh do a different type of street improvement um for for that area. Okay. So ultimately as we reviewed things and and did our our study, we recommend a mil mill and overlay for the entirety of the project. Um we also have some pavement that is um thinner than we normally see. We do a we do an overlay over that. It has um a condition that is is still suitable for an overlay. Um spot curb replacement for the areas that have curb and gutter. Um and then in areas that don't have concrete curb and gutter, we would just repave back the batuminous curve that has fail failed. Um if the town board elects to move forward with a utility improvement for Silver Fox Road and Jenny Lane, we'd pull that out of this project and we'd continue with the milling over. We'd recommend continue with the Milan overway for the rest of the pro the project area, but then we'd have some other other steps and evaluation to move forward with a uh a utility improvement project for those other streets. And we we kind of shared with the neighborhood at the neighborhood meeting if if there's belief within the neighborhood that they believe that sewer and water would be needed for those properties within the next 10 years, then maybe it would make sense to pull that area out of this project for the Milan overlay. um with if we if we chose to do that, we and we we computed costs for adding concrete curb and gutter for Jenny Lane and uh Silver Fox Road storm water improvements in addition to the the water main and sanitary sewer. Um we had, as I mentioned, a couple neighborhood meetings. The first was on November 13th where we were still doing in our um um data gathering mode. So, we didn't have a lot to share with the neighborhood. We just wanted to get um people talk start to talk about the neighborhood and the improvements and get um conversation going and and getting um feedback from people. And we did receive a lot of questionnaires. A lot of the um comments were similar to what we see on on number of other projects, but drainage issues, um traffic, um some question the project need, um Portland Avenue concerns, and then interest in reviewing an option for sewer and water. I got a number of slides here on public comments because we we did at at the neighborhood meeting um last week, we had a good um volume of people there, a lot of good discussion and so we talked about uh the improvements and options. Um some of the things that we heard and and residents will be able to share that with the board as well, but um some were having difficulty determining the timing optimal timing for sewer and water extension. Um there's a a sense that we don't know if our our septic system was in would be in that 10-year time frame or beyond or wells. Um there was discussion and properties pre property owner preference to uh remove Jackson Court from the project or sorry Jefferson Court. Thank you. Um obviously with all these projects concern over costs and assessments. um uh concern also for assessing two units for some properties and then we talked a few uh a little bit on specific drainage issues. Um we did receive a petition from Jefferson Court to be removed from the project and just for the board's reference Jefferson Court is a culde-sac off of A Street um in just south of Taylor Avenue and south of 8th Street. Um, the condition of Jefferson Court is on the better end of the pro uh of of the streets in the neighborhood. Um, as I mentioned, we they they ranged in in rating from 2.2 to 3.2, but that's still in the target window that we'd look at doing um a mill overlay. Um, and they site u better condition of the pavement and I agree. Um, lower traffic volumes. I agree. Um, but we're also when we're we're assembling projects, and we talked about it at the neighborhood meeting, um, we don't just want to do one street at a time and and leaprog over other streets. We're trying to assem assemble a a good project that we can get good competitive bids. and we don't want to have to drive over a street that that we uh recently um repaved or done a million overlay to get to a street that was uh skipped over. So that's just our perspective and it's the board decision to move how they move forward with this uh project costs um with um I'm I got several scenarios here for the board to consider. um assessments are distributed to property owners and we're recommending a $5,000 assessment for each residential unit and every property would be assessed that same amount. Um um it not dependent on their frontage unless you have multiple um units and we'll talk about that in a minute. Um assessments for this type of project are assessed and spread out over 10 years with interest. Again, the assessments are are the same amount for each property. Corner lots per the assessment policy are assessed a half a half a unit for each improved site. So, this is the um map of the mill and overlay for the entirety of the project, including Jenny Lane and Silver Fox Road. And these tables kind of show the the costs. Uh 3.6 million for total project cost for this project, 2.5 miles. Um there's 194 units in this in this neighborhood and we have um the funding would be would come from assessments the um 970,000 from assessments for 5,000 times 194 units. Um Township funds tax levy. Um water utility fund would pick up any costs related to any any water man repairs, hydrant hydrant um repairs, valve repairs. Um sanitary fund would pick up any improvements to the sanitary sewer manholes in the street. And then the uh storm sewer storm utility fund would would do some drainage improvements. We do have some some drainage items we would take care of as a part of this project while we're in the area. There are several properties that have uh multiple units. They include uh um 2714 Silverf Fox Road, 2499 Taylor Avenue, 2455 Taylor Avenue, and two of the three property owners have approached the township um saying that the multiple units uh should be reconsidered and that we should consider one unit. um they're each individual and they're each different. Um in this case, the property or the home sits uh straddles in the middle of this large lot. Um so it's it um in their words would be impractical to subdivide in the future. It's similar case here in 2499. They have a a garage that's uh um you know between the house and the garage. it it takes up that frontage. And then the third case is uh also on on Taylor Avenue. Um they have frontage along a um a short or roadway that only serves them and the properties across the way. And so they have frontage on that short street. So all unique cases, but something I think you're going to hear tonight and and to be evaluated by the board. Ultimately, the multiple unit question does not have to be answered tonight. that could be or um looked at further and and brought back as a part of the assessment hearing if the project moves forward. All right, here's another scenario for you. If uh if the the properties with the sewer and water are moved, we'd have a different area and a different project um a little bit different uh costs. So, this kind of describes that area for a smaller mill and overlay if we excluded Silver Fox Road and Jenny Lane. Um, so it's about $3.5 million for the project. Again, we'd recommend $5,000 per unit for assessment. And you could see kind of the funding sources change or tweak a little bit. Um the third alternative is the the cost for doing um Jenny Lane with uh adding utility improvements, sewer and water and uh upgrading their streets as a part of that cuz when you're when you're installing deep utilities, you're going to tear up the street completely and you'd have to completely redo it as a reconstruction. And so we'd look at a $12,000 um assessment for street improvements and between the the water and sewer um just calculating off of costs and these are high level costs um 49,000 for assessment for utilities. Um again the street costs are spread out over 10 years and the utility costs would would be extended over 15 years. Again, the half a unit per each improved side would um would be uh a part of this uh for the street improvements. So, this is the project area now for a separate project. And again, we recommend pulling this out as a future project that we can evaluate a little further. Um $2.5 million for the sewer and water in this area. Um, again, 16 units for the sewer and water, but they would also have some some properties already served with sewer and water, and they would just be assessed for the streets. Um, this is a a slide that kind of just shows our communication um that that website that's on the screen there. If the project moves forward, it's it's been our clearing house for all information, but it'll also be our clearing or our our place where we will put information moving forward if the project moves forward. Um, so any any documents are also on that site. Um, other communications include the the neighborhood meetings and if the project moves forward, we'd have another neighborhood meeting once the plans are developed and we can get feedback on the design. um questionnaires. We talked about newsletters. If the project moves forward, there'll be a a lengthy newsletter that um gives specifics about the construction as well as the um contact information, schedule, um frequently asked questions, a lot of information in that. And if the project moves forward, we'd also have um updates to construction that would be on this uh township website or people can sign up for an email update. And if there's concerns or questions along the way, there's an inspector on site that would assist a property owner if they have an indiv individual concern, an access um concern, a graduation part that we talked about at the neighborhood meeting or um or if there's a certain deliveries or construction work that they're doing on their home, we'd want to know about that and we can coordinate and with that communication. Um, so this is a project schedule. We are at the public hearing on February 3rd. If we move forward, we would look to create plans at the at the tail end of March. We'd have another um neighborhood meeting, an open house format where you could come in within a window and see how the the plans are shaping up and how they affect your property. Um, we then go out to bid and it's be competitively bid um with work starting in May or June. And then again the assessment hearing um where the final assessment amount would be determined would be in the fall. So tonight we're asking the board u to open the public hearing, take take public testimony and then um look at ordering the improvements or um determining what um you know which project option you're looking at doing um and giving us direction in that way and then authorizing plans and specifications. Um this is a public hearing uh that needs uh four fifths votes in in other words all three of you to uh approve this project to move forward. All right, Beth. Questions for staff before we open up for the public? No, I'm good to go. No, I've heard this before. I just got a couple. Um there's 16 septic systems. Mhm. Uh any idea how they've been rated or or or do we even know? We don't even know. Um we know that um from the first neighborhood meeting that someone has just redone their septic system not too long ago. Um but I think we we got a we got some good conversation about people um maybe taking a look and and and hiring someone to take a look at their system to see where it's at. because obviously we're under an enormous pressure. Every drop of water that comes in leaves this township. We we've got regulations and MS work permits. And so I I worry that we're uh missing a chance to get rid of some of these septic systems. Especially now I'm finding out other um counties you can't even sell your house unless you upgrade your system. Period. They won't let you do it. So there's going to be a eventually, I don't know about Ramsey County, but if that comes down the line, some folks are going to have to replace them when they fail to sell. So are we going to be going back again because we didn't do it to start with? Well, that's why, Mr. Chair, I I think it's a separate project. It needs more research, right? I obviously don't know what the countyy's going to do. Yeah. Yeah. And I I guess the way I I put it with the neighborhood is if if people on the neighborhood feel like an improvement is eminent within the next 10 years, then um we should perhaps hold on that area. Um you know, in the next life cycle, we're going to be improving that entire neighborhood with a um a larger project in 15 um Silver Fox and Jenny. because obviously it's been 20 years since they had a mill and overlay. So it's silver fox and Johnny 2.3 and 2.4, right? So time is not on our side either. Okay. And then um um and we got here. I'm not a big fan of of removing one street because the ratings a little higher than the rest, especially when they're all done milling overlays at about the same time. I don't feel it's uh it's cost effective. We're going to end up going back and try to spot a street which is going to cost a lot more at that time. So I me personally I I think we need to keep the whole project complete so we're not jumping around. But for Jenny and Silver Fox, correct? Yeah. I I think maybe that just needs a little bit more uh investigation, especially the the the case on how the septic systems are doing. I I just don't know. The counties are bouncing all over right now who's doing what to them, and who knows what's coming down the line either. So, uh other than that, um I don't think I had any other questions of you. I know we do have um funding now that our gracious legislation has gotten us that helps the whole township as a whole. And we're still in a discussion uh mode with the board that if we can use some of those funds directly for some of these projects. Normally what we would do is we would go with the engineers cost estimates. we would go with that assessment and then we would apply uh some of those funds so we don't have to bond for the rest of it and that gives everybody in the township a tax break. Well, in some responses when these are $5,000 assessments, we've had $15,000 assessments. My road, Peterson Road, which we just talked about, was a $40,000 assessment. So, assessments can be all over the board. uh 5,000. I hate to I know it's five still 5,000, but that's fairly reasonable for getting a million road in the township, but we still are working on uh seeing how we're going to diversify those funds to help each individual on these assessments and still help the whole township. So, everybody in the township is getting a break on this. So, because we all use township roads, we all live here. We all use the road. But with that, if there's no other questions of the board with staff, uh, I need a motion to open it up for public comment. I'll move to open the hearing up for public comment. I'll second. Motion's made in second. All in favor say I. I. If you have a comment, you have to come up. I need your name and address. Um, I know there's a bunch of people here. If we're going to all talk about the same identical thing, try to condense it as best you can. My name is Paul Thieves. I live at 2714 Silver Fox Road and my concern with this project is the fact that my particular property has been labeled for two units, meaning, you know, instead of a $5,000 assessment, we would have to pay $10,000. And that's based on the fact that uh someone has said that it's a wide enough lot that it could be divided into two lots. Well, you know, and I've uh brought some papers if you'd like to take a look at them. They um indicate that the house I believe this is the one Larry was talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. The house is situated directly on on the property. So So in order to get two lots out of that, we'd have to, you know, destroy the house, tear it down completely, divide it into two lots, and then you can get your two houses on and give you your two unit classification. How old your house, sir? Uh we bought the house. It was brand new in 1987. Uh we added the garage and an addition on to that in 2008. Uh we just got a new roof on, put new uh air conditioning and furnace in last year or two years ago. You know, we've done a lot of upgrades to the place and we're not planning on going anywhere for well, as long as we can stay in there, we're going to stay in there. So again, my concern is to uh and especially if you take a look at the septic system issues of, you know, $60,000 and if I'm being build for two of them, all of a sudden they've got $120,000 assessment. And in order to make use of that, we'd have to tear down the house and then sell the other lot. So, my concern obviously is to reduce my unit to one unit. There's plenty of other properties that, you know, have uh the same square footage, although it's laid out a little differently, but um they're still being rated as one. So, my request is to reduce ours to a a one unit. It was sold as that back in ' 87 with through the township and through Ramsey County. It's classified as a single family unit. And I don't agree with the designation. This this board has made uh concessions on other properties similar to this, but we will be looking at the the target uh properties that Larry's brought up for us. Okay. And we we'll take it into consideration. We understand. Thank you. Yeah. Good evening. I'm Zach Keller. My wife Diane and I live at 5694 Jenny Lane. And um there are a few of us from uh Jenny Lane and uh Silver Fox Road here. And um the issue that we've got with the sewer and water is is the cost that is being proposed. Um, a lot of us, as Larry mentioned, there there's been uh actually two properties that have put in uh updated drain fields. Um, and the rest of us, you know, 30 plus years, no issues. Um, we we had a contractor out um on Friday that uh we set up to walk the neighborhood. Um Larry's advice was, you know, go see what what it would take if you think the price for city and sewer is too high. You know, it'd be good to understand what the alternative would be. The range for a a mound system um uh would be in between 25 and $50,000. The the big range is because of the topography of the big hill on Jenny Lane on one side. Um, and so the city estimate is is really is really what's got us worked up. Um, it's uh $49,000 as Larry said plus uh $12,000 for the roads and now we're at 62. The the contractor that we had out said hookups would be anywhere from 10 to 20,000. So now we're up to 70 to 80ome thousand dollar for city sewer and water if township sewer and water. Yeah. Township. Township. All right. And so uh if you take the 15-year loan at 6% that's another $36,000. I mean, you're you're talking about a financial hardship for many of us in this neighborhood. That a $100,000 on a loan to go to township uh sewer and water is is is just um is way too unaffordable for us. And the second point I'd like to make and in talking to these contractors, they they they told us that the that one contractor in particular, the typical assessment uh for this kind of work is in the 25 to $35,000 range and and we're up at 62 and and that that's typical based on data in the surrounding area. And the second uh point about that I'd like to make is that when you look at the the value of the home, it's hard to make a case that there's a $62,000 benefit for our homes. Um you know that average in value I'll say around $450, you know. So it it just I I think it does need more time. The predicament we're in is if you if you force us to wait 10 or 12 years, then what do we do? If we replace our system, you know, um well, and the problem is too, as your systems fail along there, they're going to keep continually getting upgraded and it's going to be harder for you guys to stomach us to come in and put Stewart water in. That's why this board has to make a conscious decision of how long do we wait. Yeah. What my request to the board would be to um revisit the estimate and the assessment for the properties and and be in line with the surrounding communities in the in the 25 to $35,000 range, not 62. And that that would make it um more of a wash with a amount or you know an alternative system that we put in on our own. Uh, I think it might incentivize more people to do it. Um, and that that's just the general feel I have after talking to many of the neighbors on on Friday, but I'm sure there are others that that uh may want to add to this and may agree or disagree, but well, and again, that is that's the board's privy, but we are seriously looking at that, especially like I said, we have this funding now which is strictly for these kinds of projects, and it it's always been the goal and I've been around the township for a while, but it's always been our goal to get everybody on sewer and water to get these septic systems off the table because eventually, especially if you the reason you have to go to mountains now is because you don't have drain field areas anymore. That's why they gotten so expensive because you got to basically have sometimes even a backup position where you can put another one. That's why they're getting more expensive. So, we are we are going to look at that here in the next month and that will help us decide and because I I think right now I get the feeling from the board that those two roads we may have to keep off this project until we do some more research on it. Well, or or if you could consider just um somehow dropping the estimate down to something more affordable for us and get it done this summer because otherwise you're we're on the clock yet, right? But we also have to be careful playing favorites to residents. I mean, if if we're going to try to fudge numbers to make it more economical for you because you have a different situation. I don't want us to being accused of playing favoritism either. I'm not talking about fudging. I'm talking about Well, numbers are numbers. It's kind of hard to fudge them. I can answer an assessment with other surrounding areas. I I I also talked to a a state certified inspector about this and I've got input from three contractors and two inspectors on this and I I think it is it's just unaffordably high you guys. I mean I so with all due respect I would ask you to reconsider. Okay. But I think Larry can speak to this because he's done work around the whole Twin City area and obviously some assessments are fairly reasonable. But those are also communities that get a lot of funding from uh League of Minnesota Cities. Uh what's the other one, Patrick? Um uh so not uh it's not League of Minnesota cities. It's local government aid. But they do they get government aid and that those funds are usually restricted or not restricted but go into these road improvements. Well, they can they can do a better job on keeping the assessments down. We don't have that privy. We have this one time chunk of money that we're trying to weed that into it. Yeah. And these numbers haven't been finalized. Tonight we're just going to go out for plans and specs, but the assessment values we've got some leeway. We can't go any higher. We but we can cut them. Okay. So, everything's on the table for us. Okay. All right. That's all I have. All right. Thank you. Good evening, Nick Carver, 5489 Franklin Avenue. Um, just to talk about Franklin Avenue and the two culde-sacs over there. That was more than a a Millan overlay 2003. Let's get that straight. And I don't think there's anybody I talked to on Franklin Avenue or either either Caldis that are in favor of going ahead with this project. And with this other deal with the septic units and all that, I think you're going to have to find some middle ground somewhere to say, we're just going to scrap this idea for 5 years, seven years, whatever it is to get to the point where it's feasible for everybody because we we doubled our assessment the first time because we were told by TKDA that the road would last twice as long. Well, it does. It should. That's what curbon gutter does when it's concrete rather than a slough curb. But anyhow, that's kind of my opinion at this point in time. Right. Thank you. Hello, my name is Leanne Jansen. I live at 2657 Christine Court. I've been a resident there for 29 years. Um, really nice neighborhood. Um, we all raised our children there growing up. Went to the school district. Um, yeah, I'm a single gal. I don't care if it's $5,500, 5,000. Originally, I've been to all these meetings. You know, at the beginning, we heard maybe anywhere from eight to$13,000 who are going to dig up the roads. Um, the demographics in my neighborhood, um, like I said, we've all stayed there. Um, our kids are grown up. um realistically maybe the age is around 58 to 74. So you know retirement age I you know that's why I've been to these meetings are spending my money and like I said I'm a single gal getting close to retirement working hard. um you know the whole thing about the 6% interest rate added on if that's going to be you're still not sure about the assessments but yeah I think you need to look at the demographics too it's a really nice neighborhood that I live in I'm really proud of it you know we really take care of our property I think you start throwing more of these dollars out to people I mean I'm fortunate that I'm not over in Silver Fox so I mean but still $5,000 to me same thing I think we're all in this boat together I was not happy when I seen the letter coming out. I wanted to come to these meetings and learn more because again it's my money. I work hard. I've lived there 29 years and again I mean I'm proud to be in the neighborhood. It's a good neighborhood. Um not a lot of crime whatever. But I think most of us are concerned. You mean the room is full tonight. Standing room. So I think it's a really big thing. I understand that you know some of these roads are in rough shape. I understand that. Um, and I'm happy we're not doing a total tear down. We're doing a uh remilling paving and you kind of the curbs and the gutters and the sidewalks and the lights. I mean, whoa. I mean, that was my thing when I sent the um, you know, uh, questionnaire back. I don't want to do all this stuff, you know. Um, so I appreciate it, you know, bringing it down to 5,000 in the ballpark, but I still think it's a lot of money and I think you need to look at the demographics and the age here. Um, some of us are single, you know, some of us are retired. Um, please take that into consideration. All right. Thank you, Leanne. Um, my name is Kyle Steinkey, 5433 Jefferson Court, and I was the one that kind of started the the petition to have Jefferson Court removed. Um, I'm not sure how everyone else feels if they want to go ahead with the project or not. But when I got the letter as well, I was concerned. Just been there over a year. Um, but the letter to spend more money of an assessment and noting exactly how much it was. I looked around at the the streets, our street seemed like it didn't need it. Um, I'm not a professional, but there's no big potholes or anything like that. I have I'm married, have two kids, a three and a four-year-old, and we ride bikes and rollerblade on on the street no problem. So, I call it rollerblade ready and not hitting potholes and stuff. But anyways, we did a petition and we had um 100% of uh Jefferson Court agreed that they didn't want to go ahead with the project if if possible or want more information on it. Um, and at the time when doing that, the grade that we were getting was just at the maximum or above the the level of what the targeted goal for for the project was. So, it really didn't need the project according to the the first data that we got. I know with the new data that from last meeting it has come down from the uh degradation level but it's a culdeac minimal traffic. Um but the big the big concern obviously is the the assessment. Um and then also with I've only been there a year but this last year property taxes gone up. I think for us it's I think it's over 30% in our house alone. So, and I was looking at the history of our house. It's consistently been 20ome% going up every year. So, I know this isn't part of property taxes at special assessment, but it's just an extra amount on top of the the burden already. So anyways, I I did drive around on the whole project to see and like I said, I'm not an expert, but I live in the area and I, you know, I'm not for our Jefferson Court being um having the Miller overlay because I think we could easily get I think the last time it was done is 2014 based on the data or 2014 or 2018 something was done and um it doesn't seem like it has degragated since that um improvement. But I've only talked to the residents on Jefferson Court. I haven't talked to anyone else and I don't know how they feel. But I did drive around. There's other culde-sacs similar that are very similar to Jefferson Court as well. And I don't know what those residents are in favor or not for it, but I'd assume they wouldn't be. But um anyways, thanks for listening. All right. Thanks, Kyle. Anyone else? Don't be shy. It's your big chance to get on camera. Just what I want. Uh Mike Mason, 5705 Jenny Lane. And um I'm not going to rehash everything Zach said. I was part of the group that met met with the contractors. I just have a couple of questions. One is for Larry. Um, at the meeting the other night when you were going over the numbers, I thought you had said that all the excess funding had been applied and that the 61,000 was our share that was left. Is that accurate? Did I understand that correctly? Um, I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to, but Well, I mean, we, you know, Ed just said that there's extra funding available that can be applied to it, but I thought at the meeting you said that, you know, there's funding from other sources that are coming in and that that's been applied to this project already and the 61,000 is basically what's left that we get to pay. Is that Yes. oversimplification or it it's we we evaluate and again these are higher higher level costs. We like to think that we're aiming high right now and um we get bids it be lower but um we we applied these funds like we we have for other similar projects um in this case as a first time improvement those utility costs are assessed 100%. So, um, that's how we applied it and it'd be up to the board if they wanted to use other funds. And that's where those other funds will come in, Mike. So, what I mean, what kind of numbers were we talking? Because, you know, um, the contractor that came out, we we're talking about my septic system, and he guesstimated it was going to be about $35,000 if I had to replace my septic system. Um, you know, simple math tells me I'm looking at 35,000 down the line or I'm looking at 80,000. Now, that's kind of a no-brainer from from my standpoint. I would say most of the people on Jenny Lane are, if they're not already retired, they're getting close. And and I got to tell you, $71,000 was never a topic when I talked with my financial planner. It just wasn't. and and I'm not interested in working in all honesty to give the money back to you guys so that you know it it just I wish it was just coming to us Mike that way and and and you know I I I understand that the the house values would go up if we get city sewer and water but they're not going up $70,000. I mean, this money is just, pardon the pun, but getting flushed down the toilet because we're never going to see any we're not going to see that return on investment on this. Larry, are all these septics issues, they all have wells also? Yes. Yes. Okay. So, and and again, that kind of comes into play, too, because eventually all of a sudden when your well fails, there's another 10 or 15. So, those those numbers don't look as bad if you had to do both of them when you compare to what the assessment is to get both of them. Well, that's if they fail. That's true. I mean, we're talking a certainty here right now, you know, and and the the contractor told me, he says, and I live on the hill, so I'm on the I'm on the west side of Jenny on the north end, and he said that it's probably going to be $15,000 to get from this the stubs that you guys put in up to our house. Could be more, could be less, but Okay, so 71 and 15. Now I'm at $86,000 to have the privilege of, you know, water and toilet that I already have. Gotcha. You know, it just the numbers just don't make sense to me. And and I'm not going to speak for anybody else, but in our discussions with the contractor, I think a lot of people are on the same same wavelength that we are that we either have to get closer to that $35,000 or I'm willing to roll the dice, you know? I mean, I had my septic system pumped out in August. Guy says, "Looks good." He says, "I don't see any issues with it at all." You have an actual drain field? Yes. Okay. So, you know, that's my two cents for what it's worth on top of $81,000. I'll throw my two cents in just for But the the board has been looking at this over the last 20 years. We really do want to see these septic systems go away. We're getting a lot of pressure from even just the White Bear Lake lawsuit is is every out every drop of water, whether it's coming in or going out, they want to know where it's going. So, we are going to really look at this very hard to to help you guys to see if we can figure out how to make this work for you. Well, I I will agree, but that's why we're going to probably pull it off off this main uh group of roads only because it it's it's going to take a little bit of a and that's what I was going to say. At least if there can be some more study and and discussion to to try and figure out how to make it work for both sides because right now it only works for one side. We understand that. Thank you. We're all wiper residents here. I don't I don't but there's only 16 of us that are really concerned with what's going on right now. Thanks, Mike. I'm Kevin Halbach. I live on 2654 Suzanne Circle. There were just two comments made. First, we are all residents of the township and it is the goal to get it taken care of, to get the sewer, get the water, eliminate the cycle of postponing. I would encourage the township board in any way possible and the engineers to look at alternative funds to make the cost challenge the risk challenge for these residents who didn't choose perhaps not to put in sewer water. I don't know if they did or didn't if they had that choice at some point. But if at this point it's mute, let's get rid of the septic systems. Let's look at alternatives to keep the costs comparable and spend the time to engineer that. Now, I I like the notion of pulling it out just to to get some numbers with it engineered and to make these folks more whole financially and those residents because I will tell you when we chose to buy, we're not in that neighborhood exactly. We're down the street. We looked at one with a septic system and water and we looked at one that was hooked to the sewer and we said we're going with the hookups. We understood the risk. Then point is the priority is to let's get rid of the septic systems if we can. We'll do we'll do our best. All right. Anyone else? Steve Echart, 5430 Jefferson Court. And I want to make the point that I saw the original estimate. I counted the houses and about $200,000 and $3.6 million and I was looking at an $18,000 bill for my property. And so I signed Kyle's petition. I thank you very much for finding other funding sources to cover over half of that bill. So, I appreciate the fact that it's gone to $5,000. That's much more acceptable and I am at this point willing to accept the $5,000. So, I I would like to scratch my name off the position and say thank you for the work you've put into this. Well, we appreciate that, Keith. We don't get a lot of that lately. Hi, I'm Patrice Pazini Steedman. I live at 2499 Taylor Avenue and I'm one of the homes that is designated as two units. My husband and I have lived in our home for 40 years. It was built in 1967. In 1997, we pulled a permit to have a garage built and it was approved. Um, and I'm like the other gentleman that we would have to take our garage down and remove our driveway to have that property split into two to have another home built. So, like him, I ask you to respectfully review and assess our home as one unit, one payment of $5,000 instead of $10,000. Larry, you have that one on the list? Yeah, that's the middle middle property right on the map here. Um, I'm on the public safety committee and have been for 37 years, so I'm familiar with the board and how the township operates. They have always been very fair to all of the residents in the community. So, I'm confident that they're going to do as best as they can for all of us in the room. Thank you. Thank you, Patrice. Rick Thompson, 5412 Franklin Avenue. Um, I kind of want to echo some other things that have kind of been said about the $5,000. This is on top of our current property taxes that are already going up, I believe. I could be wrong. I thought the levy for the township went up about 10% this year, if I'm right on that. Now, we're going to throw in an extra $5,000 that we have to outlay, whether it's through 10 years or one year, uh, depending how we do it. I look at the current roads around that area. You were correct. Yes, there are some parts of this that seem to be definitely worse than other areas. I walk my dog through the neighborhood and there are some, but there's a lot that are decent. I've actually considered my road to be one of the better ones in the area on Franklin Avenue and it's like I'm not, you know, I've called the county for potholes on this road on Portland or different ones like that and the mess that was uh Buffalo Street for the longest time there. I just don't think we're anywhere near that point of saying, "Hey, yeah, we need to quickly do this and hurry up and get this, you know, thing done because it's been 20, I think you said 22 years since the last time the Milan overlay happened." Is that correct? Correct. Something like that. Yeah. I mean, it just seems like this can go a little bit longer. Um the roads, like say for to me, seem at least for a fair amount of this project seem to be in decent enough condition uh to push this on a little bit farther. Thank you. Well, I will say one thing, Rick. Um this is why we hold TKDA to higher standards. We're not engineers all either. Um I'm an ice fisherman. I can go on 12 in of ice feels safe. Tomorrow it's not so safe. So we don't know what's under these roads. That's why they do boring samples. That's why they do sediment testing. That's why these are the professionals and we rely heavily on their advisor. But like say at the same time with the amount of increases we've seen the last couple years in taxes, not only from saying, "Hey, you know, the township or county or whatever is going up 5 10% or more." It's like, oh, we're just doing 5 10%. Well, except for Yeah, that's also including the fact that, you know, our property values have gone up. So, my taxes, you know, when I got here 10 years ago, you know, three or $4,000 now I'm getting into the six, seven, you know, range. And it's we're all we're just going to keep on going. We're all feeling that pain. We need this, we need this, we need this. And sometimes it's like, well, do we need it now or is this something that can wait? But but I with that, I encourage everybody in here to come to our budget meetings. you'll understand how the township operates. And a lot of these increases that we get are unfunded mandates. They're coming down from above and we don't really have a choice either. They're bounced on us and we have to figure out how to spread them out. And I understand there is some of that, but at the same time, you know, there are a lot of government services and a lot of government places that could definitely look at where they can make some cuts. at the same time while we please write letters to representatives because I think unfunded mandates need a good look. Miss Mr. Chair, if I if I might, I I brought this uh pavement curve back up again. And so I a former board member kind of put put things in a a good way comparing it to a car. Um, and I think I maybe mentioned it at some of the neighborhood meetings, but um, when we're trying to extend that life out of that initial investment, um, just like a car, you need to do, um, oil changes to kind of extend things to so your engine doesn't burn out. And that's what these, uh, seal coats and crack sealing are all about. But then it comes to a point where you might need to do a break job or a engine overhaul. And that's what kind of what these mill and overlays are intended for. They're kind of a le they're not the full improvement. They're just trying to extend that initial life of the of the pavement. And so that's where we're at. We're we need to catch these streets within a window here. Otherwise, it's going to get too far down the degradation curve and we'll have to do a more expensive improvement later. And so I mean we could we could delay some of these streets, but you're taking a chance that you might have higher costs when we come back to evaluate it then. And we we've encounter counting that encountering that a bit with Anderson Lane. Um they're too far gone for a million overlay and we have to do a bigger improvement. So, um, I just that's the only thing I'd like to say about, you know, you know, the the 5,000 is is a lot of money for sure, but if we delay things, we're we're looking at higher costs later. Well, and plus too, you know, we started this road improvement process what, five years ago now because we've been kicking this down the road. The township has been listening to the residents and saying, "Fine, we'll put it off. We'll put it off." But we're at a point where we can't do it anymore. We need and eventually uh originally 15 years ago, we were assessing 100%. That's why these road assessments were so expensive. But now with the price of everything going up, everything's so we we can't do it. Now we've gotten to what's the assessment uh percentage on this one. We try to stay around what 25 or 30. I think it's in that range. Yeah. Well, that's a big change from 100. that that would have been a this would have been a $20,000 assessment. So, we're doing our best to try to keep these numbers down and that's why we're distributing it across the whole township to keep everybody's cost down. And Mr. Chair, if you if you can think of a better way, I'm all yours. Make one comment. Statutoily, the town can't assess less than 20% of the actual construction cost. They're not allowed to. The 20% is the absolute minimum and I think we're the township. That's your statue. That's your state legislature that did that. Yes, ma'am. Thanks, Cheryl Smith. I live at 5713 Jenny Lane. The one thing that I'd like to add is we didn't have a choice. Jenny Lane actually didn't even exist. There wasn't a road when those houses were built. I think Silver Fox was a dirt road. So it's not like we said no we didn't want you know township water su sewer we didn't have an option so for those homes if you look basically at Richard court whoever developed that they actually paid to put sewer and water in so they could pay and have a lot more lots and homes built there. So, we did not have a choice. And when I look, I was one of the neighbors on Friday who went with a contractor. 30,000. That's what he basically estimated, a replacement of a septic. I've had mine maintained. I have had well work done. I have paid to have everything maintained. And you come and when you start talking about $80,000, that's more than what I paid for my house. I have,00 square foot house. I will never see an improvement in that increase in the price. And so again, if those costs come down, that's fine. But at this point in time, I don't want to go get a job. I mean, because that's significant. I mean, that is thousands. I mean, that's more than grocery money. Thanks. Thanks for the history lesson, too, there. Right. Anyone else? Hi, Greg Rudd. 5686 Jenny Lane. We've lived in White Bear Lake and in White Bear Township since 1978. Our first house starter home near Birch Lake, water, sewer. And we decided after six or seven years that we wanted to build our dream home. We had a daughter at that time that was excuse me six years old and we wanted to stay in the White Bear school district. She had lots of friends and she was very outgoing. And so we decided and we looked around and we looked around and we accidentally and this is uh the truth. We were driving down Portland because my wife uh is from uh western Minnesota, grew up with horses, and there was apparently a horse farm or something on the west side of Portland Avenue and we got lost. We did a turnaround on the dirt road, which became Silver Fox on the corner of Jenny. Um I don't remember it was the middle of winter if it was because there was snow and ice on the ground if it was paved or not. there was a a a model home by a gentleman I was playing hockey with in a men's league. So we sat down and talked with him and he showed us the lots and we actually in the middle of the winter stood at 5686 middle of the block and looked around our backyard facing east which I could never replace if I sold and moved anywhere. So now when we're talking you know 80 some thousand dollars for water and sewer. I'm not against water and sewer. Um, and I understand uh pressures from the EPA and others because our backyard is the Shunaman Marsh, you know, monitored by the Isaac Walton Lake and it's beautiful. And of course, there's not as much water in there now as there was when we moved. So, the water table is significantly lowered. We've never had a issue with our well or uh septic. It's pumped every three years. Uh ballast is like it was brand new. Uh pipes are white. uh there's nothing leeching into the tank or into the uh drain field. We actually have already a mound system in our backyard and you can kind of tell in the northeast corner where it kind of it rises up a little bit but then they just level leveled it out. Um and it's worked perfectly. It's worked perfectly because when they built the house with uh three bedrooms and they count the number of faucets and how many people they think we're going to live there. Three of us lived there for 10 years and since 1998 when our daughter moved away, got a job after she graduated from college, there's only been my wife and I. U if the well fails, a pump, if you don't have to drill a new well, is $4,4500. I'm six years into retirement. That's changing my entire trajectory. We have the original debt which now needs to be a tear down which we were going to do hopefully this spring. Those plans have to be changed when we start looking at uh the proposed costs uh of the not only the road but the uh city water and sewer. Um I am not opposed and I know everybody here is in a different socio or economic uh situation status. Some want are just entering retirement. Some have just retired. Uh some are going to want to retire in in four or five years from now. And that changes our entire trajectory of retirement. Um so I'm not opposed to a $5,000 road improvement. Um when you actually analyze that, and I maybe shouldn't be saying this, that's a bargain. We replaced the driveway at a little over well twothirds of that and our we have our driveway isn't very long. So if you take a look at 100 ft and the machinery that has to lay that road and the contractor's expenses and the pay as employees and then the materials costs um I think that's truly truly a bargain. Thank you. Thanks Rick. I don't know if it was brought up. Um, what happens with these projects when we go out for plans and specs, which that's what we're going to move for tonight, one way or the other. Um, we go off for bids. Uh, sometimes we have good bidding climates, sometimes we don't. Now, some of these projects, whatever the numbers come up at, the engineer does their best to to keep it reasonable but not exorbitant. But we hope the plans or the the bidding will come in at that range. If they don't, we could scrap the whole thing because if we don't have the funding or if the pro the project is too expensive, we may not do it at all. Then again, if we get good bidding where the the contractors get hungry in a certain climate, then we're able to move those numbers a little bit. So, this is there's still some wiggle room here, but we need that base point. That 5,000 is that base point. All these numbers are susceptible to move. Again, we can't go up. We can go down. I guess I would use the word maximum point. Oh, okay. Yeah. I mean, we can go we can go down. We can't Right. We cannot go up. Yep. So, like the gentleman said, 5,000 is probably one of the lowest assessments we've had here for a while. Most of them are 10 $15,000. Eight to 10. All right. Anyone else? Just a quick Yeah, you got to come up to the podium. Well, I just want to make sure if people at home are listening, they'll be able to hear you. Yeah. Just the the timing of of this uh evaluation, you know, because we're we're all in kind of a jam here. If if we could determine that there's no funding for it, it can't be done. It's too expensive. It it would be good to I think to get the road at least taken care of and then then we set our sights on our own drain field, you know, water and sewer. We understand that. Otherwise, if if this goes on for a few years, um we we live at the bottom of the hill and that and so we get the road wash down there and it goes into the marsh and I mean that road is in bad shape, that hill. So, I I personally don't want to wait, you know, another 10 or 12 years. No, no, it was the whole plan of this when we started this whole 10-year process. We're not going to wait one way or the other. We're going to make this work. All right. Thank you. All right. If that's it, I'm going to call for a motion to close the public portion, which means we're pretty much done now. It's just going to be a discussion through the board or if they have any more questions of staff. So, this is your last chance. Anything else? All right. I need a motion to close for the public portion. I'll move to close the public portion of the hearing. I'll second. All in favor say I. I. All opposed. All right. Does staff have any other questions of Larry that you don't feel was covered through the discussion? Because we have a couple of options here to consider. Mhm. Um I it sounds like just consensus. We're we're going to pull the the silver fox Jenny. I I think that I'll make that motion to carve out that piece for further uh review and discussion because I I'm not comfortable with where it sits today is the costs. Um we hear very high costs and I I think we need to do a little more research on that. Beth, I'll second that. All right. Motion's made in second. All in favor say I. I. All opposed. All right. Then Larry, you want to review the very first option? Well, actually be what was it? Second one eliminating silver fox. Yes. So to be clear, you're ordering improvements for this area that I'm as on the screen excluding Jenny Lane and uh Silver Fox, Jenny Lane north of Richard Drive. All right. And then is the board comfortable with keeping um I believe it was Jefferson Court? Um, I am for the same reason we've said in the past. There's there's some that are better, some that aren't. But I know two years ago about we had we looked at pulling a cul-de-sac area out and then there were it continued to get worse and it was hard to get a competitive bid and it cost the homeowners a more money. I mean, it cost us all more money. We'll second the motion. Right. So, we're going to go with the option two then. Correct. Do I get that right? Option two is to keep as is outside of Yeah. Excluding Silver Fox and Jenny. Excluding Silver Fox and Jenny. Okay. Have we got that where Mr. Chair, either yourself or Mr. Popppler explain process going forward and how many more stops along the way we have before this project actually proceeds? Now, I'll make sure we're on the right page here with these. There we go. We have several more steps that we we do need to get through before this is finally blessed. Yes. Uh I can maybe talk to that. So, the project moves forward. We begin plans and specs for a million overlay for the rest of the neighborhood absent Silver Fox in that portion of Janie Lane. Um, we would bring those plans and specs to the public at an open house. So, have a a two-hour window where you can come view the plans and talk about specifics with your property. And then we would make final adjustments to the plans at that point and we get it prepared for bidding. And when those when we get bids back, um they would go to the board and the board would review those bids to determine whether to move forward with awarding a contract to do the project. And if that does happen, the we get good bids, they're moving forward, then we would um prepare a letter, a newsletter that would have um information about the project, the schedule, the contact information, the inspector that's going to be working on the project. So, you can contact them if you have an individual concern. And then we'd encourage you to check the website for updates as the project construction starts or sign up for that email update. And then in the fall, um, as the costs are finalized and the project is mostly done, we would have a a hearing you'd be noticed on where that final assessment amount would be determined. and uh and you you have that opportunity again to come to the to come to a meeting and voice your concerns with the assessment amount assessment amount. And Chad, would you like to uh uh go over the process for disputing the assessment? Oh, sure. Now, understand at some point in time, the board will first adopt a pending assessment, which is just an estimated cost spread over everyone is being assessed. Then once the project is done, there'll be a final assessment. That'll be the actual amount being charged and at that time you have the right to challenge the amount of the final assessment. There's a court there's a there's a uh court proceedings that's involved and we'll I'll go in more detail then but the bottom but I want to make it clear that you do have the right to challenge the amount of the assessment and basically the challenge is based on the benefit received if if you're being under state law and and both the legislature and the constitution if the assessment exceeds the amount of benefit you receive that assess that amount can't be charged. The assessment cannot exceed the actual benefit received and that's defined by how much the value of your property increases. But again, that's is we'll talk about that more in more detail when the actual final assessment hearing occurs. Just going to give you a preview of where you stand. And in the meantime, the this board is still um continuing our funding options because we do have some wiggle room. One other question question on the status of the three PE parcels that have been questioned as far as one unit or two unit for their benefit. When would we discuss that? How we're going to handle that? That would be at the final assessment hearing. So they know nothing until the final assessment. If we said there's going to be two charges or one. Well, actually, let me actually I take that back. The pending assessment would be actually with the time of the pending assessment is adopted. You would make that determination. But keep in mind as was put out as was stated earlier that only sets the ceiling. It can come down. So at the final assessment, if the board decides that there's really only one unit that can be assessed, then the when the final assessment is adopted, then that could be reduced to one unit at that point and we're that's assuming that's assuming but I'm excuse me that's assuming that the board at the time the pending assessment was adopted decided there were two units. So it's still an open issue, okay, is what I'm saying. It's open until the final assessment and we're going to have a number of meetings on this. So, it's it's not cast in stone. We're we're going to beat it up. We'll we'll figure it out. That was my point. I I just want to make sure we're all on the same page and you'll know where we're at. Yeah. Because it can be a worrisome summer not knowing if I'm going to get hit with one or two units. For sure. No, we understand. Yeah. You can't equal them at all. Uh all right. Um, Steve, you want me to make a motion? I'm I'm good. I'm ready to make a motion that based on the town engineer review and recommendations, adopt the resolution ordering the improvements and the resolution ordering preparations of plans and specifications for um this project excluding the Silver Fox Road and Jenny Lane area that we discussed. That's my motion. All right. I'll second that. And thank you for making that motion, Steve. No problem. All right. Motion made a second. All in favor say I. I. All opposed. All right. This board really appreciates all you guys showing up. I we we take this seriously and you guys are all we're all residents together. We want to make sure that I I we can't make everybody happy, but we do our best. But thanks again. All right. We're going to move on here. We have no other added agenda items. Excuse me. Could I can I just ask a question about I tell you what, we we uh we do have what's considered open time right now. If you can just wait one second about the microphones because they they don't seem to be on. They're on mostly for cable cast. So I said at the beginning if you have no because you can't you know Oh yeah. I don't I don't know why the acoustics just aren't that great in here. Jeez, I heard everybody really Well, they were on. Oh, sorry. Ass. The as I tried not to be. Oh, good. All right. I'm going to give one last call for open time. Okay. Thank you. Hearing none. I have a question. Or the mic. Need your name and address. 2464 Taylor. Um, so everyone could you someone wants to talk could you keep your conversations down twoyear anniversary this year. Hey folks. Hey folks. If if you're done the meeting going and we've got a gentleman that wants to speak in open time here. I hope it's not a silly question. No, there are no silly questions. Sad. Folks, can you guys go out in the hallway? There's still business being discussed. Thank you. Thank you. Project theoretically raises my property value $5,000 that I have to pay for to get that increase. Am I now being taxed? That's a really on that as well. So, we've been asked that question many times. It's just a continuous what what the board does. We get a blanket appraisal for the whole area and that's what dictates whether that 5,000 is an advantage or what do you what's the term the benefit a benefit to your property. Now whether the county takes that into effect, we don't know. It's understand the bet. It feels like a catch 22 because I understand you can say it raised my property value $5,000. So now I've got to get taxed on that or my property value did raise $5,000. The uh therefore then I should be paying the assessment because it did raise my property value. Well, the Ramsey County, you can ask that question. the Ramsey County assessor that comes by every periodically and they were in my neighborhood in by outer lake school this last summer and they and I said well don't don't raise my taxes based on the $550,000 home across the street when all the rest of them are in the less than the 400,000 and he goes oh no no no we look at all more than just your cul-ac if that answers your question we look at the area of similar properties now they didn't talk about the roads They talked about the properties, but talk to Ramsey County. That's that's gives you the answer. They'll be as vague as I am. Yeah, I tried. Actually, assessing values is more of an art than a science. But yes, basically that's what it is. Just remember, you can always challenge your Ramsey County assessment. They they'll tell you that. Well, I will. All right. Thanks, Roger. Thank you, Roger. Rod. Oh, sorry, Rod. I just have a real quick one. Uh Pat Kosan, I live at 5025 Otterl Lake Road. Um I had talked to Patrick last week in regards to and Evan in regards to B ordinance. Whitebird Township's B ordinance is very restrictive and just wondered if there's something you can take a look at changing that. Our lot size is not is too small for raising bees. We just went through that, didn't we, last year? Not the bee ordinance. It was like a chicken Oh. So, well, it's just compared to Yeah. compared to all other cities, it's it's way over the top. Mr. Chair, if I may, Evan, Evan talked to me about it. And the problem is there's nothing in our ordinance that actually deals with bees directly. We have to deal Yeah. No, you're you raise a good point. We have we and Evan and I have talked about it. We have to CJ, you know, we have to sit down and discuss that, formulate a plan for the board so the board can look at it. But I know what you're talking about. Okay. It uh I can I can make a comment on that. Also, it came before the park board several years ago at the same time we were looking at chickens and since there was no real urgency to address bees, it was well, let's wait and see. So, it it doesn't surprise me that it's can be reviewed, but that's where it was. It was at the park board. So yeah, planning commissions actually talked about the B ordinance and I think the person that came in, we actually told him, well, just keep quiet about it, you know. Well, let's not talk that way. I'm just No, you raised a good point and it's being looked at. There you go. All right. I think the I think the immediate remedy was the cup, but and going through changing the ordinance is an extended or extensive process. because there was a hybrid on Hugo Road, but unfortunately it's the best way to do it. Yeah, I got you. We still have open time. Anybody else? Anybody else? We're going to move on. All right. I need a motion to see agenda mater supplement. So moved. Second. All in favor say I. I. All opposed. I need a motion to adjurnn at 9:07. Thanks, folks. Go ahead. I'll make that motion to adjurnn. I'll second that. All in favor? I. Thank you.