[1:53] Madam Chair: Welcome everyone I call the April 17th 2024 Apple Valley Planning Commission meeting to order the first item of business tonight is the approval of the agenda any changes from staff [2:11] Tim Benetti (Staff): Madam chair uh members of commission we have no changes for you at this time [2:14] Madam Chair: thank you any changes from the Commissioners [2:17] Commissioner Schindler: move approval of the agenda [2:19] Commissioner Scanland: second [2:20] Madam Chair: moved by commissioner Schindler and seconded by commissioner scanland any discussion if not all those in favor signify by saying I I oppose nay motion carries the next item of business is the approval of the consent agenda the consent agenda items are considered routine and will be enacted with a single motion without discussion unless a commissioner or citizen requests to have any item separately considered it will then be moved to the land use action items for consideration 3A approv minutes of April 3rd 2024 regular meeting [3:06] Commissioner Schindler: move approval [3:07] Commissioner Scanland: second [3:08] Madam Chair: moved by commissioner Schindler seconded by commissioner scanland any discussion if not all those in favor signify by saying I I oppose nay motion carries that brings us on to number four public hearings tonight and we do have one so I will start by opening up the public hearing we will now open the public hearing for agenda item 4 A the Affidavit of publication for the notice of public hearing is available for inspection in the planning department everyone wishing to speak at this public hearing should be sure to have filled out the attendance roster in the back includes your name in your address so that accurate records can be maintained we will begin the procedure with a brief presentation by City staff followed by a presentation by the petitioner of the hearing upon the conclusion of the presentation City staff will be asked to comment on the proposals conformance with pertinent regulations and policies after that comments will be taken from the general public and here to present our open or our public hearing is Alex sh [4:10] Alex Sharp (Staff): thank you chair as noted this is a public hearing for three separate actions at 12450 dren Trail the actions being requested as part of this project are amendments to the plan development 1080 to specifically allow one family detached dwellings and correct some typographic layers and set some final setback items second item would be a subdivide out lot a by Prem preliminary plat into seven single family lots and then third is this is a multif family development a site planed building permit authorization for seven single family homes in conjunction with a multif family development the site is located at the northeast corner of Pilot Knob McAndrews Road as noted it is uh 12 I'm sorry 12450 Dron Trail Outlaw a is specifically the smaller of the two Lots at 1.14 Acres as part of the overall Applewood Point project the apple wood Point project is the larger 98 unit uh Cooperative in this area the area being subdivided only includes This Outlaw a and Outlaw a was created previously I'll go into a little bit more detail on that later the site is zoned PD 1080 there are two zones within PD 1080 the first being for Cooperative Zone one and the second being uh for the single family homes in the subdivision at the time that it was originally written Town Homes but again I'll provide some greater detail on that as I move through we happen to have some really good Drone footage of the pro of the project right now because we've been presenting it for our home and garden show and state of the city so this this is the project as it's been constructed to date it is according to the developer fully sold out uh residents are currently moving in and several are already living within the premises the site that is being subdivided is kind of the uh graded area here that you're seeing to the southwest of the Applewood Point project the storm water on site is all private on October 8th 2020 this is the site plan that was approved with the original Applewood Point project as you can see Outlaw a did intend for those seven single family homes on the plans it they were always labeled a town home and I'll get to a little bit more detail of that when we're going through the table but these seven units are not a new thing being added in later I want to emphasize that they were intended uh as part of the original project this is simply the actions coming forward to formally subdivide the properties off and then to create uh some additional performance standards or uh zoning requirements around those lots this is the preliminary plat the Planning Commission is reviewing I'm going to zoom in a little bit closer because this is a little bit zoomed out there will be seven single family homes uh varied lot sizes with the smallest one being 5,920 Square ft average home size uh is already around that 2,000 to 3,000 fet with two levels so there is a lot of lot coverage with these which is one of the reasons why you'll see in the draft ordinance that the lot coverage is being studied right now however all of it was taken into account in the original uh storm water study they just need to provide us some with some additional details again I'll give just a little bit more background on that in a future slide one of the major changes uh that is emphasized on this sheet that I'm going to point out is the front setback was uh altered in a minor way from 20 to 25 ft this was done to provide for a little bit more on-site parking a full car length in the garage we are currently evaluating this though we don't believe that there are going to be issues with the grading plan upon speaking with the developer but that could uh go back to the original where the original was at was at 20 foot from the sidewalk so that 5 foot isn't truly a full sidewalk or a full 5T it's two to three varying per lot this is a lot of information on one slide so I'll try to piece it apart uh I think starting at levels of kind of importance the first is adding town homes and one family detached dwellings the one family detached dwelling is an important consideration within the plan development ordinance because that is what the developer is proposing they've always proposed to detach town home however upon review of our code Town Homes must have one shared wall and so this difference in definition between our code and uh perhaps a developer Norm of detach town home uh we don't have that definition we'd rather utilize our current definition than create a new one that way it's more consistent uh this is the way that it reads in all of our single family zones so it's identical to that some of the other items that I noted about there were some items that were reversed uh within the code where it was clear uh the ordinance didn't intend for Zone one to have larger uh smaller setbacks in zone two uh there are things like minimum lot sizes overall density which has not been amended or changed from the original plan but we are cleaning it up and formalizing it now to that overall 12 units per acre and then setting some setbacks probably the most important on this one again will become that impervious surface coverage other zones uh particularly planned developments do have varied impious surface coverages based upon what their storm water systems were designed to accommodate that is how this one will be set up I believe uh as a estimate will be somewhere in that to 50% range this is a little bit closer of uh closer in site plan just to give a little bit more Conta this was primarily for the overall Applewood Point project but I did want to uh includeed in the presentation because this was what was submitted even for building permits and so uh the reason I'm including this is to try to emphasize that at all points in the submission process the seven single family homes were an anticipated feature the utility plan uh one of the odd things I would say about this development is that the utilities are in and stubbed already for lots that haven't formally been created that's of the nature of this development and they needed to get the site prepped and worked and that private Drive In in order for Apple point to be functional so typically the Planning Commission takes a look at utility Plan and there's some review but in this case they're there they've been set their elevations are set so that does uh H have to be an item of consideration if we start making any changes like that 20 foot to 25 foot setback we are carefully considering that as we're working with the developer uh Much is True with the grading plan typically we are seeing a grading plan at the time of preliminary plat to make sure the plats can work and utilities function in this case the grades are relatively set there are essentially four different landscape plans for this all of which are largely similar perimeter plantings and uh two trees are proposed the developer is proposing to meet the two and a half uh means construction value percentage required for code for multif family developments we do not typically require that for a single family development but this is that plan development hybrid so that is one of the aspects that uh is included in this plan when I'm I'm not going to go through all of them I'll kind of move kind of quickly uh we are encouraging the developer to work with our natural resources coordinator to shift some of the species uh perhaps some less Maple perhaps a little bit more diversity uh these are really standard comments that we get uh the Planning Commission I'm sure has heard that many times before but uh we'll we don't have set requirements for that we're just doing a encouragement to encourage some biodiversity uh within the sites So based upon their uh uh different h Homes designs is how they have designed the landscape plans these are included in your report and I can certainly go back to them if you do end up having any questions but they're predominantly similar so I don't want to linger on them too long these are the elevations of the homes proposed they are proposing to use some higher-end materials uh such as the uh cement board sightings uh they're wanting to put Dormers and arches in the roofs if you read the applic narrative they highlight some of these as accent points that are intended to mimic the Applewood Point project um both have sloped roofs or the the apple wood Point project has a sloped roof these have a sloped roof but they uh both include Dormers windows in those Dormers and other architectural features that they're trying to maintain a similar cohesive development the homes will be maintained uh via a Association so they will have shared snow grass trash removal um that it was a consideration of staff and want to make sure the Planning Commission the public is aware of that as well one of the things that we didn't add as a permitted use are sheds because the exterior maintenance will be performed by a third party company there are interior layouts available these are greater detail for the Planning Commission and the public to view within the packet as well this isn't something typically that the Planning Commission or staff reviews uh but they are all intended to be available for walkouts um and they've got some models like this one that have even a three-car garage again on each one of these you're starting to see some of those common themes of the peak roofs and Dormers coming through and with that I would open it up for questions or comments I believe the the applicant is present and I believe a representative from Robert Thomas Holmes is also present be able to answer any specific questions about the units [14:35] Madam Chair: thank you Alex anybody have any questions for Alex [14:39] Commissioner Scanland: yes commissioner scanland Madam chair um Alex um basically what we're doing here is really similar to what's down in Cobblestone with the single family homes um uh maintained they're an association-based um single family homes where they're not a like you say traditional attached town home situation and then you said these are going to be Association maintained correct that is what the applicant has stated in their letter yes right okay um one question we were showing the um various measurements what what kind of distance are you looking at between structures I was asking what is the distance between the the structures the homes [15:31] Alex Sharp (Staff): chair CTS commissioner scanland I think this will uh show it a little bit better so these have the standard 5- foot D drainage utility ements that we see on any single family lot so we didn't actually uh decrease these even though these lots are smaller to answer the question more directly there's a 5 foot setback required from each side uh typically we have that just on garage side within single family homes however in this development I am going or I'm proposing a straight 5 foot that was what was intended before 10t essentially between units [16:04] Commissioner Scanland: okay thank you [16:05] Madam Chair: anyone else no um can we bring up the um applicant is there somewhere that questions chair before I go is there any site that You'like up or anything uh no not at this moment I have a couple questions [16:29] Dave Young (Applicant): good evening chair members of the commission my name is Dave Young I'm with the United properties I also have Mr gybo here with Robert Thomas Holmes happy to answer any questions you might have I want to First just thank Mr Sharp and the rest of the staff for a thorough report that was produced I won't I won't go into any uh you know repeat of what they did um other than just making the the couple of points that that he pointed out with the architectural features that we incorporated Robert Thomas incorporated in to to kind of highlight uh what existing structure that's already there and um and just it's noteworthy that appwood point did sell out all 98 homes prior to completion and we have a 54 home weight list for that community so definitely in high demand so we and City all should be very proud of that [17:13] Madam Chair: it looks very lovely also that's very very nice over there thank you so I have a couple of questions maybe just a personal question but I just kind of want to know what do you consider to detach Town h house so I've always too always known a town home has a mutual wall in between what do you consider a town home or not a town home [17:41] Dave Young (Applicant): maybe a question for Mr grabo he's in the single family home business I think I've met you a couple of times [17:48] Paul Grahel (Robert Thomas Homes): yeah Paul grael president of Robert Thomas homes um sorry if I'm close to the good detached Town Homes really came from in Lakeville um there's certain requirements as far as garage size and Lakeville puts kind of a a little box around a common property and we then called them them detach town homes where it's the full snow mow Irrigation in this case and and Dave and I had spoken about this earlier that our intent is to not have a main irrigation line like you'd see on a lot of common ones we'll actually have each individual home will have their own controller that'll be on the outside in a locked in in a locked control box so the association essentially will go into each box do each setting because we really want it to look you know exactly alike for as far as yards go so you don't have one person that oh I don't want to run my irrigation they they won't have the chance to so thank you for that explanation [18:41] Madam Chair: um I don't know which one wants to answer this but I guess I went over there today so I can see where people are probably a little confused as to where the homes are going to be placed is it going to be up on that hill where the it was kind of like a half moon is it the is it up on the hill part is that where the homes will go I I can help I'm going the wrong direction of course yes yeah so right between those Evergreens on the back there is that kind of where they're going to be going okay so what kind of a customer just curious because you know you see the apartments or in the back and everything and then you have these individual homes what kind of customer do you generally see who tend to live in there [19:15] Paul Grahel (Robert Thomas Homes): so primarily on our Villa product we see empty nesters with the occasional um young professional that doesn't want you know maybe wants a house this size but doesn't want the you know the snow and Mo and trash is also included and that that's pretty rare I'm assuming on this one we'll see really the empty nester demographic who just don't want to downsize that much but want to what so yeah that's the interesting thing is Cobblestone the one that we we had done in there um we did our turnover meeting and people said you know we came here intending to downsize but then we realized we almost bought the same size home so they're really not giving up any space but it just it lives so much more comfortably than a two-story home and some of the elevations it gets a little confusing like on that Hamilton where it almost looks like a two-story home so the streetcape and and just the massing of the homes it it they all look a little different different well they're beautiful homes see why people and I love the porches [20:23] Madam Chair: so yeah uh commissioner scandin [20:25] Commissioner Scanland: Madam chair this is May this question or comment is maybe kind of late in the game you're pretty far down the the design route but um especially in the demographic that you were just talking about for this is to with this type of product is to shift the garage back and have the porch forward so you can have that inner communication yeah going between all the town homes versus the porches getting isolated and the garages forward from the so the front of the property so on where these were designed was really starting in Cobblestone and then we uh moved over to Spirit of Brent farm and we really looked at all the arc guide lines for there and they're pretty much on they're pretty much equal the porch is held back a little bit but uh it's it's not like the garage is out you know 10 ft it's very very close to level with the porch yeah like you know like for Cobblestone the garage is set back like a foot I think 12 12 in yes yeah and it just that difference you to have the porch forward so that you can actually be sitting on a porch and communicating or having your neighbors there yeah and it encourages that conversation conversation and just that uh um interaction with your neighbors knowing people and I think with a seven a seven lot development it'll be a pretty tight-knit little Community too along with uh The Cooperative so and that also might take care of some of the driveway length problems too by bringing the driveway back versus having it Forward [22:00] Paul Grahel (Robert Thomas Homes): C Stone we did where there's a private drive we did some that had that side load garage um they won't fit on on on these Lots so the side load they're they're pretty deep and uh we're just intending on doing the front load [22:15] Commissioner Scanland: okay you have a couple plans with a front porch extends beyond the garage [22:18] Paul Grahel (Robert Thomas Homes): we yeah I'd have to look I'd have to honestly look at them again if we want to I don't know which direction I think we have a copy of all the elevations I thought I thought there was a plan that um commissioner may be referring to where those front porch yeah does does extend it kind yeah you can see it on the one where it extends out but some of them are Dro back and there there's something to be said too about a they they definitely live you know it's a good front yard feature but to have a little bit of privacy too if you do want to sit on your porch people walking by in the sidewalk I think again it'll really well right yeah they're very handsomely made [23:09] Madam Chair: anybody else have questions for them [23:13] Paul Grahel (Robert Thomas Homes): okay and our our clading is a LP smart side so it it is a wood product [23:16] Madam Chair: okay commissioner sandal [23:20] Commissioner Sandal: Madam chair um I think this is also kind of more of a personal question but like I'm just curious what's the what's the argument for doing the detach Town Homes ra opposed to traditional town homes so we've done some traditional Town Homes I think we found with this product people maybe aren't ready for that step into a town home and that they do prefer not to share a wall I guess I understand that part of it um with the with where it's located it feels almost I I don't know it feels to me like a like an attached one would make more sense just right across from I'm just curious I don't and I don't know if you want to speak that [23:49] Paul Grahel (Robert Thomas Homes): yeah um [23:51] Dave Young (Applicant): that was always our intent is to have a diverse option of housing sure available [24:00] Commissioner Sandal: okay thank you [24:02] Madam Chair: any others I guess not thank you thank you thank you Alex anything more before I my paperwork okay so if there's anybody here tonight that would like to ask questions please come up to the podium to speak and address all comments and questions to the chair state your name and your address anybody interested [24:34] Sue Swanson (Citizen): I'm always the chatty one are you yeah Sue Swanson 12450 Dron Trail perfect number 228 okay thank you um looking at these are those dmer windows is there living space behind those or are they just part of the design [25:15] Paul Grahel (Robert Thomas Homes): being told no that that is not a living space but it is just a facade of Windows [25:24] Sue Swanson (Citizen): okay and on that one um form that the gentleman showed it showed number of stories for are they going to be like two stories I know it's a walk out main level but where did the other two stories come from [25:34] Alex Sharp (Staff): chair if I may sure the number of stories four is for Zone one only that is for your building Applewood Point [25:42] Sue Swanson (Citizen): ah good so that's thank you thank you Alex and a question this isn't really probably for your group but how do we go to the city of Apple Val and ask them to redo that that um no turn on MC Andrews they've got it so that you can only get in if you're coming if you're coming down McAndrews from the West you turn on to Pilot now and then you turn in no problem and if you're coming from the east on MC Andrews just pass Valleywood you can turn in no problem but there's no eras except onto MC Andrews and you can't turn left you can only turn right which puts us out driving around in the houses over there in order to be able to go back East there's no way you can go east and there's no way you can get into the property if you're coming south on pilot n other than to go to the light and make a U turn [26:55] Madam Chair: I'm going to address this question to our city engineer Brandon could you maybe answer that for her or can [27:03] City Engineer Brandon: Madam chair members of the of the commission this this both McAndrews and Pilot Knob are roadways controlled by Dakota County Dakota County has access spacing guidelines for where accesses belong primarily for safety Pilot Knob is a four to six lane roadway at higher speed the reason for the right in is we would have extreme accidents making lefts and there's some sight line issues with not being able to see when the original preliminary plat of this site came in that was this was one of the more exhaustive discussions that was had regarding the approval the access is set up it can be a little inconvenient from certain directions but it is entirely designed for the safety of Access One of the discussions about um if you need to go east from the site um making a a U-turn is legal at a controlled traffic signal intersection and that was something the county has allowed so that it it both of these are County Roads the city doesn't have jurisdiction over the access on the county roads um we worked with Dakota County for this plan for for safety I just have a feeling that knowing how people are getting out there they're going out on meand which is the only way you can get out they're turning right because you can't turn left and the cement divider does not go all the way to the light and people are doing urns right where that cement divider there's no sign that says no you turn but people are going out turning right they want to go East so they're doing a uturn around the cement barrier assuming there's no traffic coming the one where you turn from Pilot Knob that's fine cuz you are at a stop play so you can get around but the other one and with another seven homes in there plus the 98 of us and that's the only way we can get off the property driving so we would need to take that concern to Dakota County that is what you're saying yes ma'am okay the the the the center median was put in place at the location for a reason we still needed to main ACC maintain access from Dover which is the road to the east that needed to re remain a full and the the concrete Center median was stopped short of the traffic signal um was a decision by Dakota County because they're reviewing that intersection in some upcoming studies and some turn lane needs so it was an interterm condition that they didn't want to um and it and it forced some additional right away and some other needs to to add that in and it just didn't fit at the moment so they wanted to look at the your future growth before that went in we can we can make a note to to our enforcement to keep an eye on the illegal u-turns those are things that do come up that we can well even in [30:08] Sue Swanson (Citizen): my family I'm perfectly willing to come out and make a uturn at the end of the medi so I can go east my husband is a meltdown if I suggest that so even within homes there some he you can't do that um sobody says it's a against the law to make a U-turn there which we did not look up but but so even in our family I'm fine without driving around the homes of all these good folk over here and he's not of course he never goes east on the can thank you very much [30:46] Madam Chair: but it sounds like Brandon is saying is to contact Dakota County for your concern maybe send an email to them but otherwise you will note to keep an eye on illegal turns of some sort [31:02] City Engineer Brandon: we'll we'll review the signage with the county as well and and see if there's some additional signage at the right it says at the U-turn movements prior to the signal to see if there's something [31:14] Sue Swanson (Citizen): okay I'll take a look at and work with their Traffic Engineers as good question so thank you [31:21] Madam Chair: is there anyone else that would like to speak and ask any questions any concerns okay there are no further comments I will close this public hearing it is the POC policy of the Planning Commission not to act on an item on the same night as its public hearing the Planning Commission will weigh all comments and information received tonight in his deliberations at Future meetings this item will continue to appear on future Planning Commission agendas until a recommendation on the petition can be forwarded to city council thank you thank you you're welcome okay that brings us to number five land use action use which looks like there are none tonight so uh number six other business and I will bring that to Tim benetti [32:16] Tim Benetti (Staff): thank you madam chair members of the commission uh just real quick before uh we'd like to uh announce that we or our council at the last meeting on April 11th uh did select a new member to replace your uh uh commissioner deckman uh his name is Douglas holas I hope I'm saying that name right h l uh Doug had some great qualifications and uh we had we also got some great candidates for that position so uh but Doug was uh uh voted in last at the last meeting uh he still needs to make his official swearing in with the city clerk and as soon as that happens we'll take care of the uh uh internally we'll do the orientation with Mr Hoss and hopefully we will see him at the next meeting great great news anything else any meetings coming up just a quick meeting update for May 1st and May 15 are your next scheduled meetings for your commission and also we have Thursday April 25th and May 9th for city council April 25th Council we plan to have the Le Schwab site plan and building permit authorization and the condition use permit on that meeting that night um if uh anything else we will give you an update as necessary and if I recall correctly April 25th is also volunteer appreciation [33:38] Madam Chair: thank you people to attend if they want to attend that's correct supposed to let rsvpn know beforeand okay with that can I get a motion [33:51] Commissioner Scanland: so move [33:53] Madam Chair: motion made by commissioner scanland second by commissioner Schindler all those in favor signify by saying I this meeting has adjourned thank you