has provided a lot of information and this has been changing all the way through um and and still today we Jenny and I kind of laugh and chuckle a little bit is like we have no idea how an onall firefighter actually gets to utilize the ESS time um it's it's it's clear they get to earn it by the statute but how do they actually get to utilize it because the call goes out um they either respond or they don't so um so things one at at one point in time after legislation had passed um this uh statute um it was unclear whether elected officials would get it and then there became a little bit more clar clarity later on so you're absolutely right there there there's going to be an evolution onto this and I and I believe uh because you're absolutely correct Minneapolis uh St Paul Bloomington and duth have had ordinances um you know on the same type of ESS time for for a number of years and um I I believe duth um I I believe their ordinance I think excludes um some of the categories that are now different underneath the state statute so there's going to be some changes that are going to occur for for them um and even their number of hours is different um than the 48 I believe it's 40 on their on their piece to it so this is going to be an evolution it's going to be something that's going to change I think overall um I I I I I guess I see where the intent of this was and again I go back to you know that article last night you know to think of onethird of the workforce um doesn't have the timeing um you know that they get paid for I mean is kind of to me is is um unbelievable um but yes I think we've we've done a pretty good a job of of trying to incorporate the state statute into our existing um policy U making sure that um you know all of the expanded usage is is clear and and um and how to utilize it but obviously the proof comes in when when employees start utilizing it and for managers to understand it and and yeah we'll be we'll be talking to the attorney quite a bit I I think looks great you're clear with what's happening I've done this for 10 years um but I will say the only thing that I am not 100% clear on I would just ask for a little bit of clarity and this comes from me and my what I do on a daily basis too how does this coincide with FMLA because all of this is a little bit with FMLA as well so just keep that in the back of your head no I think that's a that's a very good suggestion yeah and again there's kind of clarity that we're a little bit uncertain right so yeah yeah any any wisdom you can pass our away will I need it just as well we all work together so um but yeah there's there's something that goes along with it but just keep that in mind as you move forward with working on leaves with your employees as well sure hey Dan have you calculated the financial liability to the to the city for this and have we accounted for it in the budget um that's a that's a very don't think it's a ton of money it's a it's a very good question so so if one looks at it from the standpoint that we're giving 96 hour I'm going to just look at it from a full-time standpoint that we're giving 96 hours of sick today we haven't changed that at all right um it's basically the usage and so how do we how do we determine does this increase the usage of sick and then one can look at it and say if sick increases um for the most part um with the exception I would say of our Police Department um we don't backfill so it's kind of like a I call it a gray cost the cost is going to be there the same we haven't increased any of our costs what I would say is we've lost some sort of productivity okay um for that no if the usage and that's something that we need to you know that we need to report periodically back to the city council um to see how this has changed things if all of a sudden this comes to the certain point where the usage has changed so dramatically and that we are are um seeing a lot of overtime again the police is probably the one area that we would see the most and or we get to the point where all of a sudden we have uh department heads saying I need additional FTE because I'm losing so many hours um from from staff and their utilization I don't believe that that's going to occur um yeah there definitely can be some circumstances in which um that um you know that we May um lose an employee for an extended period of time underneath the expanded usage but then again I look at it as I really would like to have had that employee for for for the expanded uses out um in dealing with um those issues but those are things that we'll end up reporting back to city council um you know kind of showing a history of uh past um sick usage versus how that looks moving into the future does our current sick policy allow for carer over year on year um yes it does okay yeah up to how many hours um I believe it's a thousand for most employees and 1,200 for department heads okay so it's an excess of what so how do we handle that upon termination or exit is that something that gets paid out or is that something that you don't get capitalize on um there I'm going back to the financial liability no no no it's no no oh no very very good um I believe you have to have 10 years of employment in the city and then it's it's capped but under this under this new law if they can carry over their 80 hours and they're termed or choose to go elsewhere is the city liable for paying out the 80 hours uh no they would have loaded no yeah underneath the PO see if we would if we would have chosen um the option of front loing 48 hours then we would have had to pay them that 48 um hours we haven't chose to do that about the dollars I'm good ABS absolutely and that's you know I I don't want to say that that was part of the reason that as we were working through this that that crossed my mind but it did as the finance director of course so but yeah thank you anything else I think that's it thank you very much all right and this item will be on the consent agenda um again and if you have any other questions we certainly can can address them at that point in time but I thank you very much thank you appreciate it thank you sir all right next up is uh Community Center discussion um I know we have three new members on the council that uh haven't been involved with the community center as much so I just want to give you a kind of a brief history and where we're at right now so North St Paul Community Center was built in the early 1990s for a cost of 2.4 million the location was selected because we own the land across the street from the Public Works building and uh since the city owned the property they decided to put the community center there it was opened in 1992 uh the building was imagined to be kind of a central hub for the community offering meeting spaces and fitness areas for residents and surrounding Community um other than the original purchase price the city didn't keep um Good Records as far as the maintenance cost or labor costs uh equipment purchases um in a separate fund account so it's difficult to recreate the financial statements on this what they did was they just kind of did internal transfers from Mostly the electric Department into the general fund and then it was just taken care of um so in ' 92 when the facility opened we had uh two full-time employees down there we had a director and kind of an admin assistant position in 2003 um well in the early 2000s the city started to hone in on the financials due to the exorbitant costs of running it um different programs were tried see if they could Branch out and get some more people involved in the community center um agreement with the Ramsey County Library was signed on May 21st 2003 um and ever since 2003 um up until it went to a private place to run a business the rates were increased each year trying to get more income for the building 2004 facility Renovations started um locker rooms gym new equipment addition to the Library um declining particip participation um was already starting to happen a report from October of that year shows UH 60 PE 68 people entered the facility uh through the month um also in 2005 uh snack and coffee shop was added into the effort to attract more traffic into the building um 2007 guidelines issued for noise and cleaniness standards so what happened was people would rent the meeting rooms and they would get excess noise from the workout area and the gymnasium so there were some issues with um having the meetings in there um 2008 uh there were internal memos forecasting savings for by closing the facility but even an estimated cost of closing it was 20 to $40,000 just to keep the lights on keep the minimum amount of heat in there in the winter time 2009 the membership count was down to 399 um a focus group was studied and uh conducted a SWAT analysis of the building um pointed out strengths being the library kind of the atmosphere uh facility and opportunities with the library the kind of the weaknesses were marketing operation hours offerings um facility and kind of unkempt meeting rooms the membership data from 200 n um just kind of shows that it was not highly used by residents of North St Paul um just the yearly resident for family membership was at 4% um yearly resident for individual memberships was at 16% or 71 people um and even the senior yearly resident individual membership was at 4% as well in 2011 staff reductions um were made in in an effort to save funding um collaboration with the city of Maple would happened they had some programs that we worked jointly with them on having in and using some of the meeting rooms uh Financial issues addressed by cutting services um and operational expenses the city was looking for options to remove the cost burden from the city's taxpayers the 2011 change in Staffing and the Park and Recreation collaboration um have made Community Center operations less dependent on the general fund subsidy but expenses continue to far out away Revenue when all subsidies to the community center are taken into account into account so of that first graph that's about little over $39,000 that it cost and that doesn't include utility cost which was another $142,000 for that year um so so as you can see the uh about 73% um of the total costs or expenditures were $452,000 while income was only at $123,000 in 20111 revenue from the community center would not cover utilities and janitorial charges much less cover the expenditures of running the operation the community center in 2011 operated at a $329,000 deficit that 2011 deficit was subsidized by um taxpayers um supporting the general funds and uh City Electric funds in 2012 membership count was down to 380 people less than 5% were residents of North St Paul despite efforts of memberships um remain stagnant we tried different things over the years like I said we kind of went joint with Maplewood for a while we uh they brought in uh kind of an Interactive exercise equipment the X arcade for a while trying to um boost membership but spent 60,000 on that approximately to uh try to get more people in there unfortunately it it didn't uh make a big difference Community Center Services identified as non-essential and not core Services uh the city must provide so less than again 5% of residents regularly used the community center surve identified the preferred they preferred the library over the fitness area and meeting rooms as more essential competition from other Fitness facilities um had caused a declined in membership in 2013 the city programming ended um the facility was leased to District 622 um that just lasted a year in 2014 the lease was ended and that's when the hockey School came in and began to lease the building and that rolled into um Coco volleyball in 2018 for use of the building um even up till now we kind of just did a quick review for utilities of the building so in 2021 um strictly electric and gas this doesn't include water or sanitary um that cost was $62,000 um 2022 had a little over 81,00 000 kind of depends on the winter you get those cold spells and you get the higher gas costs um electric stays pretty constant um 2023 so far this year through November we're at close to $54,000 uh in 2020 um we got proposals for to purchase the building Shi skizo one of them coko was the other the city wanted to keep the building and the property uh for their own use so they declined the uh purchases in 2022 we hired old Architects um to retain it for conducting a facility review um we had roof repairs of $35,000 which was kind of a Band-Aid to get us through to this year um unfortunately we weren't able to get that roof fixed yet this year um Council approved resolution in support of keeping the community center and seeking funding public comment get gathered hosted at the city hall on uh July 28th of 22 residents spoke in favor of having senior and youth activities there residents Express concerned about not being able to afford tax increases for the project um in that meeting we had maybe 30 to 35 people that showed up for it about a third of them were children in 2023 we did an Outreach and got lobbyist looking for some bonding money um estimated cost that we kind of came together was about 2.3 to 4.5 million approximately for what we would need to get the building back up on its feet again not 23 and 40 that's a misprint sorry I choked really hard when I read that yep uh so the idea was to have the community center just kind of be a community Hub uh safety area for youth uh place for veterans and seniors kind of a Multicultural Center if you will demonstrate Hub showcasing City commitment to sustainability uh the city was aborted or was awarded um bonding money to refurbish the community center of 4.5 million uh W architect created a detailed facility plan outlining building repairs and grouping them by priority to better manage the project costs uh the focus focus groups interviewed early in 2023 interviews were conducted with a variety a wide variety of local groups responses were mixed with many groups speaking out about the possibilities and other focusing on the tax burden of the project other issues raised were um including security Staffing costs uh location and parking people mentioned uh potential uses for the building but many were not in favor of having to pay for the spaces um Andor did not have the budget available for adding expenses kind of historical NES notes over the past two decades much of the Deferred maintenance on the building was pushed out due to cost where they were trying to save money but now that put us in the position that we're in now where the building needs extensive upkeep um the facility kind of had a history of security issues during its Administration um the city experienced several police calls for unruly Youth and vagrance that's probably not much different than any Community Center um now with the grand granting the grant money the city will need to make decisions on the facility in light of the grant funding made available to the city from the state of Minnesota and potentially the federal government there is potentially a $800,000 grant that we may receive from the federal on top of that 4.5 from the state um so some of the things that we're going to have to kind of focus on and figure out now is fully understand the terms of the Grant and how they impact the city's commitment to the programming and management of the facility for instance um one thing we did find out that once you take the money and start investing into the building you are committed to that building for 20 years after that point um fully understanding maintenance costs to rehabilitate the building as well as to ensure its proper maintenance in the future fully understand staff needs from the city to manage program and maintain uh the facility um fully understand the tax levy impact of the reimagined facility fully understand the impact on Ramsey County life library and the penalties for breaking a current contract um fully understand the impact of the city's existing infrastructure placed in the building um and cost to maintain it which we have a back up the it room down in that building besides here as well uh we also have a shared generator that's over there that feeds the Public Works building as well as the community center um fully understanding the impact on the city's existing infrastructure placed in the building and cost to maintain it because fully understand the building's opportunities and challenges moving forward flexible space limited parking uh fully understand residents desires and willingness to support the project um understanding the everchanging market forces and impacts of several new apartment complexes in the area with their own fitness centers meeting rooms and recreational spaces as well as changing services and needs of the community um fully understand the impact of accepting or declining the grant money um and lastly um our options which are refurbish the facility and operated as a city-owned community center refurbish the facility and lease it to programs Services meetings meeting the grant criteria refurbish the facility to maintain the library and City infrastructure only uh demolish the facility with plans to relocate the city infrastructure and pay lease penalties to Ramsey County or just flat out sell the facility uh and that's kind of just a general overview we're still learning more now with information coming out from the state as we're filing paperwork um just want to give you a brief history of that um so you know where we're at welcome to any questions that you may have I can answer thank you Brian appreciate that update any question what is the time timeline to accept or decline the grant um I believe it's into next year uh I don't have an exact date in front of me sorry is the date not specific quite yet is that or do you just not know it off top here they haven't released some of the information yet so we're finding it out as it trickles in okay thank [Music] you and in recent months have you had any inquiries for the community center either some organizations or what have you since kakuro has departed yes several um I know that we've had uh one gentleman in town has a youth group that he has um has expressed interest um we've had a another different volleyball group than C that has looked at interest of it um and there's been a couple others too so we have had you know we have a theater group local theater group that was showed interest in it as well so it's kind of difficult because you kind of put it out there saying are you interested in the space and they're saying well what does your space have to offer what can you give us so it's kind of getting Chicken or the Egg and you know this is what we have can you use it or the good thing with this bonding money if we need to do the interior clearly we would do some reconstruction inside as well have you spoken to the library recently in regards to usage in the community center they have expressed that they would like a little more space if they could um and I don't know if that would mean there's a meeting room kind of West of where they are if you could open that up for that area potentially um they just said more um and I know that they sometimes they'll go in uh that Corridor there and have kids there when they're reading stories and stuff to them so they've expressed interest so because with this is a discussion when I moved to North St Paul the community center did not exist as in residen it was closed residents it wasn't open to Residents so as we're evaluating what we should do moving forward as the city um I I haven't seen it yet I'd like to go in and take a look at it is it worthwhile as we're considering our options to have a community open house is the facility even can we do that I I don't know I'm just with open discussion certainly is a possibility sure that's one thing that you know we kind of got pushed back on our heels a little bit for not maintaining it over these years and keep putting that kind of money into it you know they were trying to save money just because we didn't have um the interest in it like we had hoped um but then moving forward you know the ongoing cost this money will help you know refurbish the building but once that's done um you can't use that money for labor for hiring people inside there or the ongoing maintenance of things so um that would have to be taken into consideration you know do we need two three employees somebody around there um to run the place make sure it's staying safe uh answering questions um just a lot more things to consider right I definitely um Echo that because you know to get it to where it is and to have a future you know that's a little bit brighter than the than the past we had I mean it failed as a community center in 2012 and open it up as that we hopefully we learn from you know we would understand where where the needs are of the of the community and understand where to go forward as far as is it something that brings value to our community and we're willing to pay for in the long run indeed I think um one advantage that we have is um the funding from the state and potentially the federal um government as well our taxpayers are pay that and so um it's just an opportunity for us to kind of recoup or harvest that into investing into larger things like a community center um so I think that certainly has been um a great opportunity for us and a great advant AG um otherwise this could go to another project somewhere Elison somewhere Minnesota mhm you know the costs aren't cheap to run a community center we have reached out to other cities as well um there aren't too many community centers that make money so I mean we just need to know that going in um and just the ongoing cost that um people at least shared with the limited amount of me that we've had that uh they don't want to have increased taxes to support and I've talked to other May uh Mayors City of Oak um of U excuse me Maplewood you know there's there's the Y now they still own the building but they you know they had to lease it out it just didn't work the way they were you know as far as how it would work for the community um city of Shoreview I talked to the city of Shoreview and um theirs is they don't have a they don't have a downtown they have nothing so that's kind of their I'm not better words what they use as a loss but it's their Town Square it's everything that they have as far as that so my predecessor in the electric Department um I was a superintendent back then so the director kind of did more of the budgeting stuff but uh he would tell me year after year that they were putting a good 250 plus thousand into the community center each year just to keep it a float of what the costs were for it and to get it when you look at it to get it back to the way it was is the money we're getting from the from the state can we afford to have it the once it's fixed is is the biggest issue going forward because it be nice to get the building back but can we actually continue to run it without a tax burden for everybody as well with Staffing and maintenance and everything else yeah yeah I certainly think that's um important to consider um when we were doing those interviews I think the interviews with like or W was doing the interviews with different um partners and um there was a lot of interest and potentially maybe even leasing it out to maybe having you know different groups kind of run their own thing so it may not land on three or may reduce the number of of potential employees that are needed if we do some of that Contracting with certain services or programs or youth program programs what have you I am excited to get more information right now the only information we got that I think is it's 20 years that it has to be so what does that look like as far as how it can be as far as it has to be a full community center does it can you rent it out to other groups and once we get that more information it's going to be quite uh just to see what's entailed I'm curious and one other thing with the funds we found out that you can't have an internal employee or employee of the city um be kind of like General to the project and try to stay on top of things they won't reimburse labor hours for that but if you want to sign or have a third party do that for instance W then they would be they would pay that part of it so just little odds and ends things that they take care of and don't take care of I think it would be helpful for us to look at um more community centers similarly I think you've already done some research it sounds like um and we've ALS o gone to the Conway Center in St Paul um that was kind of in a pretty bad situation as well and um they have the S foundation in there and so um what they were able to do is um with the foundation and public private Partnerships they were able to not only um maintain and build out but they were able to build out and expand their Community Center and so I think they have a a whole building that was paid for by Delta Dental yeah so so that's certainly a model for us to also consider I would think that there would need to be several different revenue streams to be practical that's great because when we did go visit Conway they were on 22 Acres so we talked about that and we I brought up the Google map of ours and that was a big concern because it was just landlocked in that little small area yeah as far as not you know if it was sitting on Casey park where you had everything behind it it's a different story but this is I refer to was poorly cited because it was kind of just wedged in a piece of property we had so we're very limited right that's where kind of concern I have with that yeah I could see something yeah like you said Casey lak or MC Knight being a little bit more appropriate for for what an expansion could be but yeah certainly um that public private partnership piece is is something for us to explore as well as grants yep looking forward to getting more information thank you for this update it's very helpful you bet I was here part of it I remember part of it I don't so Y and that is all I have anybody else before we good okay no let me go up to what I'm supposed to do up here just real quick I'm I'm happy to also share with um you all what um what I said at the legislature when we were asking for it so I can certainly share that too um either I guess now or um okay time you still have your notes I don't know if I have mine yes what what month was that okay do you remember which month that was uh 324 of 23 I found I just found my notes and that's that's what they're dated so I'm winging that somewhere in that vicinity okay I can't find it right now sorry I can share it and maybe add it to the packet or something like that sure thank you that'd be great mm okay well if something pops up let me know I'm going to just go to other business if there's any and if if you find something let me know other business do I have to go specifically for Workshop or just say other business other business NOP okay so moved thank you so moved to adjourns by Mr Co council member s all those in favor say I hi I thank you all we'll see you at 6:30 you want my notes Brian I can for I can forward them to you