[music] [music] [music] [music] All right. No. Yeah, we're about to start. All right, everyone. It's time to begin. It's time to begin. Welcome. It is uh Wednesday, January 28th, 2026. Welcome to the 10:30 a.m. uh Urban and Economic Development Committee meeting. My name is Anthony Archie, uh, counselor for district 2. Welcome to those of you here in the space and joining us online. Um, for everyone, item number three and four have been pulled. Um, but don't worry, uh, three and four. >> No, you're right. Four and five. >> Item So, item three is still on. >> Item three is still on everyone. How about seven? I'm just >> Oh my gosh, so much hard work for number seven. Okay, item number one, we're calling the meeting to order. Item number two, Pat Connley, reappointment to the Municipal Employee Retirement Board. Term expires December 31st, 2028. Pat had attended 33 of 38 meetings and held from council district 4. >> Welcome Pat to the table. >> Thank you. Uh will you share a little bit for those of us who uh don't have the pleasure of knowing you as well a little bit about who you are? Why would you love to continue serving on on the um on the board? >> Um I'm Pat Connley, a Tulsa native went to TU and OU Bishop Kelly St. Mary's. I contend the best [clears throat] education the state could provide. Some people would debate that. um worked for the city for 37 years as a city planner and then budget division manager and a grants administrator the last year. I retired 12 years ago and u I've served on the trash board subsequently and the merk board. I think this is my third term for the merc board and I really enjoy it and it's pleasure to help manage that those funds. >> Excellent. Any uh anyone want to make any comments? Yes, councelor Bengal. >> Thank you for continuing to serve. Obviously, we don't know each other, so it's nice to meet you. >> Nice to meet you. >> Not enough fishing. >> Uh, Rob and >> Okay. >> I ride my bike a lot. >> Okay. >> So, um, >> so obviously retirement is treating you well. >> Yeah. We My wife and I travel. I can only really play golf twice a week because >> it >> Well, no. Just a Well, if I play more than that, I just keep the hoop. [laughter] >> Well, you get to play more than I do. So, >> well, yeah. So, >> luxury to have >> I really like to ride my bike on little parks. Speaking of little parts, uh we need a new trail for some of the bikes going through for all the bikes going through the gathering place. It's very dangerous and also you all need to regulate because it's your responsibility at Metro by River Parks Authority. >> That's the personel [laughter] >> tell us what the motorized vehicles vehicles on on river parks trails. They go way too fast >> for the retirees. dangerous situation. I don't know if anybody's told you all that, but it's it's bad. I ride down there all the time and it's getting dangerous. >> We'll It's getting dangerous. Uh well, we'll talk with Jeff. We'll get and we'll loop Jeff in. I appreciate uh this wind up institutional knowledge. I just thought >> you also did a great job serving on the board as well. So, um >> just keep him at the table a little bit longer. [laughter] >> We'll be voting on you uh on February 11th. So, not the 4th. So, don't come here on the 4th. come here on the 11th. We'll be voting. You're more than uh uh more than happy to hear you speak at that vote if you want to continue to share and but thank you so much Pat for your time. >> Thank you. And I I always try to mention thank you all for your service. It's I know it's a real takes a lot of time and it's thankless a lot of the time. >> Oh, it's fun. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much. Thank you, sir. >> Great pay. >> Thank you. >> Item number three. >> Good to see you again. [clears throat] Ordinance approving. Are we ready? I'm sorry. Ordinance approving the fourth. All right. So, I practiced this about 10 times today. I thought maybe I should memorize it, but then it was too much. Okay, everyone pay attention. Item number three, [laughter] ordinance approving the fourth amendment to the declaration of trust of the Tulsa Metropolitan uh utility authority accepting the beneficial interest in the Tulsa Municipal Utility Authority as provided in the declaration of trust of said public trust as amended by the amendment to the trust indenture. The second amendment to the declaration of the trust. the third amendment to the declaration of trust and the fourth amendment to the declaration of trust with the emergency clause. Uh who who was with us to talk about uh >> the declaration >> the declaration of Eric >> I guess director Lee is with us. >> So um as you know there's the Tulsa Metropolitan Utility Authority and the Tulsa Utility Board. Tulsa Utility Board was created by charter. Tulsa Metropolitan Utility Authority was created um so that could comply with title 60 trust in the state of Oklahoma. Um the mayor can designate somebody to serve on the Tulsa utility board and the way that the ordinances are does not allow for the mayor to designate someone to serve on team UA. What happens a lot is it's happened previously with Mayor Binham and it's happened with this mayor is that someone can come into a meeting and vote on a TUB agenda item but not vote on TMUA. And so it makes it very difficult to sometimes make forum if they can't serve both roles. And so uh Jeremy Ward, council for TMUA, drafted this amendment and had legal look at it as well. This will allow the mayor to designate someone to not only serve on TV but also teama so that we can be more efficient with our meetings and and meet quorum when we need to. >> Councilor Dector right >> just to clarify so one person serving two roles within those entities. >> Yeah. So currently Mike Miller is the designate for the mayor to serve on TUV but he can't serve on TMUA because the charter does or the um ordinances don't allow him to do that. So with this change then he would be allowed to vote at TMUA as well. >> Could we not just have a secondary designate from the mayor? >> So it's not one person. >> Well, mayor can't designate anyone right now to serve on TMU. >> And I think that's what the change is. Are you are you asking? >> I'm asking is there a reason it needs to be the same person? Can we have two designates, one on each side? Well, the problem is we have that [clears throat] that meeting on the same morning and so now we take up two people's time to come and listen to the because what happens is the teama meeting goes first. We have that meeting and then the TUB agenda is the exact same and so we would then have two people sitting in the meeting as opposed to one. the agendas of the exact >> I'm sorry uh councelor Gilbert and then councelor Paul Harper. >> So to what councelor Dr. Wright is saying everyone that's on tua is on >> call utility board. Okay. So, it's just >> Jack. >> Yeah. Why are there two meetings, same agenda, doing the same thing? >> So, this happens as well with Tulsa airport authority and Tate. We have these overlapping charter um authorities that overlap with our title 60 trusts and they have you know essentially the same purview. So by in the trust indenture it says that the membership of TUV as provided in the charter is de facto. They're the members of TMUA but it doesn't replicate the language that allows for the mayor to make a designate a design to the TMUA. >> So how has this been handled in previous administrations? Does the mayor sit on that seat? >> He he or she can. Um so I was the mayor's design, >> right? to Mayor Binham and I voted on TUB items. I waited until the TUA agenda was addressed. Precisely the same agenda was kind of addressed in summary at the end of the meeting and I voted on that which I think Mike does as well. It's a a redundancy and it's a little bit um odd, but I think this will just add clarity that the uh the mayor's designate can also vote substantively on TMUA agenda items. >> But it's the same setup, same citizens that sit on >> Yes. TM TMUA serve on the same move over to >> Yeah, we can get into the whole history of during the charter amendments in 1989. Why why this TUB was kind of the historical it was the uh um it was kept in place because it was seen as kind of the link between the city commission at the time and now the city council. >> So maybe we just do a charter amendment to clean all this. Can Can we do that? >> Yes. >> Yes. Okay. Well, although you ask the citizens have to understand what we're asking them. >> Why would you keep duplicate? >> Yeah. This sounds like a charter. >> Well, it's charter amendment season, so we're all in luck here. >> And we just need to make sure the voters understand why we're >> cleaning up the language. I just wanted to make sure that it's just not the mayor's designate moving from one meeting to another, but it's the same group >> of appointees going from one to the other. Okay. >> They're simultaneously sitting in two seats except for the designate who can't be appointed to the TUD. Correct. >> Unless we make this change and or update the charter. >> Yeah. >> To duplicate in they hear the same agenda. >> Yeah. >> It's a waste of time. It's just like it's a total waste of time. >> So >> here's what I'll say is that after the t so the first agenda is costly authority and it usually can take about an hour and a half to two hours >> and then they just read the agenda right after that. So it's less than five minutes >> to take action. >> Yes. >> But just get rid of it. >> Correct. Let's just structurally fix it. >> Government at its best. >> I think we're 30 years into this. >> That's what I was trying to figure out. Why are we doing the same thing twice? >> Cuz they weren't so sure like council government was going to work out whenship. Correct. >> 1989 is when we moved to >> We're good. >> I think we're good. >> Proof of concept has been >> That's the hearing for moving on. >> All right. [laughter] Anyone? All right. Anyone else? Thank you. Uh director. >> All right. Item number six. >> We should all go around the table and say what we were doing in 1989. >> Graduating from high school. [laughter] Not for public. >> All right. Item number six, city council initiation of amendments to the neighborhood info overlay text and expansion of neighborhood info overlay zoning map boundaries for portions of uh city council district 1 and three. This is brought to us by councelor Hall Harper and councelor Dutton. Uh Susan Miller is with us. >> Good morning. >> Break it down today's meeting. Um Susan Miller with the planning office. Um this is an item as he mentioned a counselor um Paul Harper and Dutton sponsored and we've talked a lot about um bringing forward an extension of the neighborhood infill overlay. So just to give you a little refresher about what that is. Um the purpose of the overlay I'll talk about where it is too is promoting alternative ail housing in established neighborhoods allowing a variety of housing but also keep making sure that it's compatible in scale and character um and promoting housing types that help accommodate households of all different sizes and income levels. So that's the purpose of the neighborhood info overlay today. um it exists and this is the boundary um that it currently exists in. It's really neighborhoods surrounding downtown. This is this is really I put this the red neighborhoods are are the neighborhoods that were taken out during the process. This sorry this best map I could get at the last minute when I was putting this together, but those the red ones are not included. >> Um and so the current neighborhood info overlay was effective in 2021. Um and this is for instance this is a house. I wanted to see it. I think it's a is it 14th in Harvard? It's a duplex. So, I think there's another door around the side. So, that's just a good example of how you can have a duplex and it doesn't really look like a duplex or it's a >> still looks like a single >> Yeah, looks like a single family house. Um, there is a just kind of hit hit this off at the pass a little. There's a second or we call it NIO2, a neighborhood in full overlay, a second one that's in Dawson, very uh crafted for Dawson. So that that wouldn't change. That remains as it is. Um that is the square mile of Dawson. So that's really not to be not part of this. Um so the idea is um to expand the infill area, neighborhood infill overlay area significantly. Um and we drew we drew the boundary really looking at all the neighborhoods that we thought were appropriate, which is really a lot. We've had a lot of interest in North Tulsa, both in district one and district three. Um, and we've had, and I don't have those numbers. I don't know if we're still tracking them exactly to see the um the activity we've had in the existing neighborhood in full overlay. Um, it's it's a little hard because it's just a permit. It's just you don't have to go through any special process. So, I'm not sure if we're still doing that or not, but I know we've had quite a bit of activity in the existing neighborhood. >> When you say interest, you mean from developers or residents? >> Um, I'd say both. Uh yeah, both. So the we have the extended boundary which I'll talk about in a second, but we also have really lessons learned from the text of the neighborhood info overlay. So um for instance, in the existing neighborhood info overlay surrounding downtown, you can only utilize those provisions to do different housing types and have reduced lot sizes for properties that are residentially zoned. um you can apply that to commercial or industrial or any office properties. Um in Dawson, we actually did allow that. Um we've had people in the neighborhood infill overlay we're talking about here that have reszoned from commercial to residential to take advantage of the neighborhood. We don't want people to have to do that um because you know there's a lot of smaller commercial properties that are appropriate for housing as well. So that's one. Expand allowable building types on non-conforming lots. Um there's just some weird non-conforming provisions we found that kind of get kind of get in the way. Um adjust lot and building regulations to be consistent with desired outcomes, which means just uh we've adjusted, we've looked at the lot sizes, looked at the if you're familiar with the um uh TTown home catalog, the pre-approved plan program. There were some recommendations about some further reductions in lot sizes. So some of those will be seen here. Also, um, for some reason in the original NIO, we didn't include detached houses in the with the ability to have reduced lot sizes. So, that we think that should they should also be able to have those. And then also increasing the number of ADUs allowed on a lot in the NIO. Um, this is another re sort of recommendation from the Ttown Home catalog. I think they even recommended up to three accessory dwelling units per lot. Um, we've decided that we think collectively with counselors that that we could try two accessory dwelling units per lot in the neighborhood infill overlay. You still have to meet all the standards for lot size and setbacks and all of that. So, you can't just cram them in regardless. So, there's still standards that would apply. So, that's the general flavor of the text amendments that we would process um uh concurrent with this. The boundary was super hard to see. Um, it's really goes, I'll see what I can do to verbally describe this. Um, all the way up to the U northern part of the city limits. On the east, I'm sorry, the west boundary is Osage Drive. So, we do go into right up to the limit of um the county at least. Um, kind of circles around. It goes as far south as it absuts the existing neighborhood over infill overlay there. Um and then of course of I244 is the southern boundary. It goes all the way out to Memorial. I think that jobs over I think that's Pine. Um it's up to Apache. That's Highway 75 there at the kind of the northern part. So that's generally um the boundary really tried to take in neighborhoods. Um you can tell I mean a lot of district 3 is not included obviously because you don't need the airport or district one mohawk car. None of that's necessary. Um and then we broke it down and I know this is still large scale but broke it down into four parts of that oh thank you of that big area. Um one thing I'll say too um within this boundary back to the big one within there are 25,000 properties in the boundary. So that's a lot and within 300 feet of the boundary there's an additional 2,000. So, not that it applies there, but those are those are the notices we're going to need to to send out. So, that was our struggle at first is that's a that's expensive. Plus, we're going to have to post signs. We get to sort of be creative in how we do that. The code allows us to since it's council initiated. Um, but we still need to, you know, provide that type of notice. So, we do have um some small area plan implementation money or plan implementation money and this does help us achieve goals in our plans. So, we're going to utilize that money for notification and and all of that stuff. So, happy to be able to use that money for something like this. Um, I think our next steps, which I didn't put here, but I think our next steps, I know that um we're working with councelor Hall Harper and Dutton to find um dates to start public meetings. Um probably starting in I don't know about late February, but at least March. Um really in February, there's a lot of prepping to do even for the notice. were thinking as we prepare for a planning commission meeting, maybe sending out a joint notice. Hey, here are the however many meetings that you have an opportunity to go to, you know, on one side of the sheet on the other side and then here's the planning commission public hearing on the others. So, we can try to be efficient in our notice, take advantage of that since we're sending it out to so many people. So, that is what I have. >> Thank you, council. I have councelor Bellis and then councelor Dector Wright. Um, hey. So, I had um I know we've like communicated a tiny bit about this, but I wanted to follow up more. Um, I'm like really excited that this is happening because I know it's really critical to addressing housing and feasibility for people to, you know, do this kind of housing. Um, and I know this primarily is focused in um, you know, understandably in like districts one and three and you've been talking about district 2 as well. Um, and I also know the history of why certain areas of district 4 didn't have this happen previously, but I know there's still a lot of room for the NIO to expand in district 4 and that district 4 has like the second most vacant lots in the city after district one. Could you explain a little bit more about kind of like the phased approach or the capacity issue? Does it have to do with mailing the >> No, no. I mean, um, >> you want to jump on board is what you're saying. >> Yeah. [laughter] Well, it's just it's like we, you know, we need more housing. Absolutely. Like I'm just curious like what yeah why phased approach versus trying to just do more at once. >> So I would say less the mailing more the just interaction with people. Yeah. >> And trying to communicate to the the amount of people that we have already 25,000 properties that we're going to need to find a way to communicate with. So that's my >> that's >> that's my concern even going into this year. I know I've talked to some of you about some of our initiatives and >> you have a lot of initiatives. the the people ones are the ones that take time. You know, we can find a way to get notices done and all of that, but we just need to make sure we're meeting enough and communicating enough with all the interested parties, the homeowners, the property owners, and all of that. So, that's that's our >> I wonder this is a query maybe to you and to my council colleagues as we get into budget cycles of things. It's like, okay, we need to address our housing crisis. There's especially I'm just naming like for instance in district four, you know, we're or kind of an urban Midtown core where it makes sense to add in a certain like density wherever we can as appropriate blah blah blah blah. Um but I understand there's those capacity issues and of course there's the most opportunity when it comes to vacant lots in district one by far. Um that said, uh so I I get the phased issue, but it sounds like to me, right, this is a capacity issue is what I'm also hearing is like, hey, we would do more at once that would help us move faster on making things more feasible for housing to happen, but there's only so many of you to do some of like just [clears throat] realistically to do a lot of that leazing. Is so is this like a staffing? >> Well, I mean, is more money? >> Well, or or I'm wondering is there another city department that helps facilitate that? I'm just thinking through that community outreach part. I know how I trust me, we all know how challenging it is when there's a controversial zoning topic or people have concerns >> and it's a bit of an every time, as you all [clears throat] know, we go into any type of zoning issue, it's an unknown. You may have 10,000 20,000 people that are interested and want to call and talk to people all day long or you may have none. >> So somewhere in between is, you know, so so we just need to be able to provide that. It's just very it's a very much unknown. You know, I would say >> I would even feel better just to make sure we're still able to keep up with all of that communication with people. For one, it's for one, it's really helpful when like council Harper and Dutton are taking the lead on scheduling the meetings and you know, then we'll we'll lead the conversation and show up and we'll do all that. That that helps um kind of figure out that we we will um take the initiative to talk to home builders and people in the industry about it. Um, but you know, maybe it would be okay even just to stagger it a little, not really to have to wait until this is totally over to start a second phase. You know, I I just kind of get past the big people part and kind of see what that >> is for this area. It's hard to know. I don't know that like, you know, one or two people. It's just really, it's just such an unknown. We just want to make sure the people that we have geared up to answer calls and >> Yeah. talk to people that it's going to be. I don't even know if it is, but >> yeah, you never know until it's happening. >> Yeah, we don't know until we're in the middle of it. >> Okay. No, that makes sense. I just I'm trying to keep tabs on because again, it's like how do we do some of this stuff as expediently as we can because we know it's important and we know it makes a difference while also acknowledging that yeah, these things are time and staff etc. can you know consuming. Um >> okay, >> so let me just throw something. So, um, like a tentative schedule that we put together for this, um, thinking this is maybe a little ambitious, but I'm still hopeful. Maybe if we can get through some meetings, um, some public meetings, we could possibly even when do I have it? Oh, no. This is fine. April. Uh, as long as we get through planning commission. So, we can even initiate a second phase in April. >> Okay. That's not Yeah, that's >> which will be here before we know it. >> Yeah, that's true. gets us past the the big public meeting part and the a lot of the calls and a lot of the conversations and all of that and this and the second phase >> theoretically would be, you know, would just be the map. So, it wouldn't be all the text amendments that we needed to talk about. >> I see what your >> Okay. Okay, that makes sense. So, it's not like that weight. Okay, that's really helpful. >> Thank you. >> Wonderful. Councelor Dector Wright. >> Thank you. Um, so we had the downtown neighborhood infill overlay in 2021, followed by the Dawson in 2022, and now this, thank you to you and councelor um, Dutton for expanding what we know is needed. I guess my bigger question is, are we going to continue to patchwork our way through this or can we maybe the residential habitability working group or somebody kind of do a more comprehensive look at like ADUs by right in all residential areas? [clears throat] >> Good question. I didn't I'm glad you >> I didn't even talk to you about this, but yeah, very good question. >> No, I know some things. >> So, we [laughter] >> Well, we're working on that and so we are we have we have what we call residential zoning codeworking group or something whatever we call us. So, we have a small group of us that have really been digging in deep. So, we have the NIO2 which takes >> things further than the this other group we're working on. We're looking at citywide changes. Um, we've been working that on that in the background. We're going we hope to kind of get it worked out, present it to planning commission, maybe ask planning commission to initiate those changes in March. Now, that's that's a little ambitious. Maybe this isn't that is more so and there's a lot to it. >> Sure. >> Um, so, you know, in the end of the day, some of it may not all get through. Everyone might not be comfortable with everything, but we're trying to really look as deep as we can to try to accommodate um some of the housing needs and some of the desires of what we've heard from people when they develop property broader than just the neighborhood in full overlay. >> Right. So, >> including >> so if if this this process you're talking about goes to planning commission, it still comes to us. So, even if they are not unanimous or whatever, we still get a chance to kind of have a different lens that we put on it. Um I I think it's great that you all are taking initiative to extend now for the third time a plan that in other cities has existed for a very long time. I guess my bigger question to you all is do we want to continue to do a patchwork approach which is very incremental and I think in HOAs with covenants there's already like that's not up for discussion right they're not going to have infill but in other parts of town >> um where it's largely RS3 there could with a little um you could have a mother-in-law unit or a boomerang child unit or I mean, that's that's part of our other zoning card. >> I [clears throat] mean, overlays aren't meant to cover the entirety of the city. They're meant to capture, >> you know, a a goal in certain cards if we >> Yeah. I guess I'm just saying is overlay a patchwork of overlay is the way we're going to continue to do this work, >> right? If because this takes it even to another level than the proposed residential changes that we're working on. So this may not be a right fit for everywhere in the city and it's kind of the purpose of it. So I'm I'm excited for you all and I think as soon as we present it to planning commission and kind of get to that process, I want to start meeting with all [snorts] of you about it as well. >> Um but I think some of you will be excited about it. Hopefully all of you. But um >> we're trying our part. Is your recommendation then to go for counselors to go neighborhood by neighborhood or district by district and do these over like bring these overlays forward right now? >> Um this is the best way to go about it. >> If you have areas in your district that you think would be appropriate for the level of this overlay, then we should definitely talk about it. >> Okay. >> Yeah, I think that's probably the start. I know councelor Archie did and so >> and we've been having conversations um >> about Red [snorts] Fork >> uh and there are folks that are interested in in developing but you know if you're a builder to be profitable you you want that density also you I'm asking myself the question how do we breathe new life into a historic part of of town how do we bring more resources there and you know the the rooftops bringing the retail sort of that chicken and the egg sort sort of deal. And then I think there's some parts of town like the [laughter] >> Well, it's okay. Uh some parts of town feel uh that pride, you know, the west side of Tulsa has that has that westside pride. So maybe they would resist a, you know, blanket a blanket regulation. Um, even though it might be great, but my intention is after you all are finished with uh with uh this infill overlay, we take the lessons and go to record work and see what the feedback would be. Maybe it's different. Uh maybe the the details of it are different, but uh we definitely want to uh contribute to housing. So, so what um when so I think you know you and councelor Bellis we when we are ready to get started on that maybe March or whenever we start those conversations about the boundary what we would like to do that we did with district one and three is kind of put down a boundary showing where we think the neighborhoods could accommodate it where we've heard interest from property owners in the neighborhood and start from there. definitely rather um try to look more broadly um than neighborhood by neighborhood that's it's a lot of process involved in this so the the more broadly we can do it but in a way that makes sense right okay >> so we'll we'll start that conversation in a few months >> anyone anyone else I'm going to ask this very quickly because I know we're running short on time or we we want to continue on what's the thought process about the infrastructure that will be needed to sort of accommodate the building that we hope will happen as a result of this uh development for the >> so the beauty of infill is that infrastructure already exists >> right >> so um >> so I mean most of the time not always because we we do find pockets of um the city that are still on sewer um and like as I think it's district 9 maybe 61st in I'm not sure that >> we got 41st in Lewis >> oh 51st in Lewis. >> Okay. I mean, both sides of the street. >> Yeah. Places you would not um expect in South >> 67th in Harvard. >> So, so sometimes that 67th and Harvard, >> but that would be on the developer. >> Yeah. And I don't I don't know that >> it's already developed. >> Yeah. I don't Well, I don't I don't know about all of these areas in this huge area we're looking at now, but where we've done the infill overlay so far, definitely infrastructure is there. All right. Well, thank you Susan for >> May not be the best. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Thank you, Susan, for [clears throat] being with us. >> Thank you. >> All right. Um, item number seven, ordinance amending uh the TTRO title 51 Building Code, Chapter 1, International Building Code 2018 Edition, adopted section 101, amendments to the IBC 2018 edition by updating subsection 305.2.4. four and deleting subsection 305.2.5 to align with state law which allows licensed family care child care homes with large family care uh homes to comply with the international residential code and operate without an automatic sprinkler. This carries the emergency clause. Council Bellis, this is a >> this has been a journey. This has been a journey. >> This has been a wild journey. Um I'll just give a quick kind of rundown. Um it includes Yeah. There's intrigue and mystery. No. Um no this I and you know so much kudos to you know councelor Hall Harper has [clears throat] originally been like working with and heavily advocating alongside home child care workers when it came to ensuring that they could you be licensed and through the city. Um and has more than once also been like okay we did it. um we we've cleaned up all these policies. They're good to go and be in compliance with state and city policies and be licensed. Um and so at the over a year and a half ago, two years ago, we all thought something came through this table that was like, okay, we have cleared this up in our zoning code. They are good to go and operate. And then it was brought to our attention that through um our um you know fire code and residential building code that there was an issue um that required them to put in commercial commercial grade sprinkler systems into these oftentimes old small residential properties and that even our like city water lines wouldn't have enough pressure to do that. So there were like several layers of we would have to update like water and sewer pipes for them to be able to do that. they would have to spend thousands of dollars installing these into their homes. Um, and we initially, myself and counselors um Hall Harper and Dectarite um were working with EA council staff Marissa had just come in um with Marissa to try to find people who would do that. We were going to try to create a revolving like loan fund or something to help these child care providers. These are usually small like you know small business owners providing child care to seven to 12 people out of their homes. Um some of them live in those homes, some of them don't. Anyway, we were like, we will find out how much it costs to put in a sprinkler system and then we will create some kind of revolving loan fund or something so that they can get this going and come into compliance. We reached out to so many companies to give us a quote, almost no one would answer. We finally got one to answer and they heard what we were asking for and then ghosted us and never responded again. Um and so finally someone came through who was being appointed to a city um committee who also serves on a state entity that's related to fire suppression expertise and we all just kind of I cornered him right after he left a meeting here over a year ago and was like hey no one will get back to us about how much it costs to install these commercial sprinkler systems into homes and he goes that's because no one does that and no one wants to. [laughter] Um, at which point at which point then for us as a city and our fire department too, we're between a rock and a hard place. The code says this, we want to be in compliance, but no one even does that. Um, and that this fire suppression expert did assure us there are other proxy safety things that can be done to keep those homes and properties just as safe when it comes to, you know, fire, etc. And, you know, there's not a track record of this being even an issue in these homes. Um, at that point though, we knew we had to change state policy. And so last legislative session, um, Representatives, uh, Shriber and, um, Stewart, who else is a firefighter, so that was great. We're, um, you know, Representative Shriber's been focused on child care access as well. They brought a bill forward to make this adjustment. So, it got changed on the state level so that now we can change it on the city level. That's the whole that's the whole journey. And then after this, we'll be able to have these childcare workers get licensed. And you know, right now with so many childcare centers closing because of the cut subsidies, etc., we need all of these operators to be open and successful in the neighborhoods they're in. So, um I will let um legal Caroline Garrett over here explain a little bit more about the actual nitty-gritty part of this, but as a last quick note, um we're following International Builder Code, which is only actually followed by like two nations. The word international, that's my biggest takeaway from all of this, is really kind of loosely. Yeah, it's really it's just the US and like Saudi Arabia. It's kind of wild. Anyway, take it away. >> Sure. Well, >> I I'm happy to explain a bit about just the numbers are a little confusing, but it all it starts with the fact that you have the IRC, the residential code and IBC, and already the IBC allowed for five or fewer. So, a childcare home with five or fewer could already comply with the residential code. So you kind of had lower requirements for five or fewer years ago or kind of what the existing of our amendments to the IBC here locally by Tulsa, we had kind of done something different where we've broken out instead of splitting five or fewer and six and up, we split it along the definitions DHS uses, which which makes sense. So DHS has seven or fewer is kind of a smaller child care home. 8 to 12 is the large child care home. And so our ordinance said the way we amended the IBC because we have we adopt the IBC um because that's what the state does. In our amendments, we said seven or fewer can follow the residential code. 8 to 12 can but with a sprinkler. So that's our current ordinances. Now, when this um HB1 1847, which is what councelor Bellis referred to on the state level, um passed last session, went into effect November 1st, it said kind of preempted municipalities, municipalities can can't put any extra requirements beyond the IRC. and you know in talking and looking at um even just the legislative discussions talking to Representative Shriber and ultimately getting kind of guidance from the state fire marshal it was clear that the intent of this bill the meaning of this bill is we can't require um either size to have sprinklers so this ordinance is meant to get us just lined up with the state requirement um I think our opinion from legal is the state bill is already in effect theft and that went into effect November 1st. This is getting us so we don't have something on the books that is confusing and technically viol you know in not state. >> So and this is where the numbers are a little weird but like I said already the IBC says five and below you're in residential code. So the way we're fixing ours is we're just taking care of 6 to 12. So now we're saying 6 to 12 also goes to IRC and clarifying no sprinklers. So that's kind of what this ordinance does and that's why it's just 6 to 12 is because five and below is already taken care of. Um if you have any questions, let me know. >> That sounds pretty simple. It sounds pretty simple to me. >> That's good. Five and below are are um we're already taking care of six and above, >> right? And I I think in the backup materials I wrote up um what did I call it? Background. And it can be helpful to just I sometimes I have to like kind of reread it too just to follow the numbers and the the history of it a bit. But that's there for your guidance and if if you need that. Um but I can answer questions as well. But this is we I also pulled a quote from the email we got from the state fire marshall's office just really emphasizing this is what all the cities in Tulsa or in Oklahoma have to do >> anyone questions or the job >> tremendous >> yeah hopefully >> tremendous >> I will flag to my colleagues as well that there I think we're going to see other things you know now that this had kind of helped me learn so much about right building code and fire code and all these layers and these things don't just affect these like home child care businesses they affect other parts of you know um like you know things related to housing and so much else and so I think there's a lot of opportunities and I'm sure and I I think we've even heard recommendations um related to other opportunities that other cities or states have taken to make adjustments to these codes um to just like support businesses housing etc um and so this is definitely a good crash course in the complexities of all of that and I'm sure we'll see some of it come across our table again now that we know that this is this kind of code reform can be really critical in supporting safety, supporting housing, supporting businesses, etc. This has just been a really interesting area to deep dive into that's both complex but I think we'll be back at our table again now that we've learned more about it. >> And I'll add to I think the legislaturator is considering adopting the I can't remember I think it may be the 2022 the new set of IRC and IBC. So to the extent this is interesting to you or different parts of it that's that's on document this session >> and that's going to impact sprinklering of all manner of buildings especially historic >> like the historic apartments and things. Yeah, there's layers like that and especially with the fire code probably part have to do with stairwell access or so much else or um you know how many stories of a building or conversion need to do what I'm just naming we all may end up hearing um whe when people go to do different types of development or otherwise issues they come across related to this code or I know sometimes we hear about this especially on the fire code end of things and it's worth flagging or seeing when something needs to actually be a state level fix. This is just one of those moments of, oh wow, we found out this requirement is like 100% unfeasible. We were going to have to change the state policy. And I just wish we'd known that sooner. And now that we've seen that happen, I think we just need to start to try to identify those collectively as early on as possible so that we know when it needs to go to the state level. >> Can we ask for like a legislative tracker on that bill so we can follow it? And then we probably should get with NAOP and HBA [snorts] to kind of see like how bad are these moments? Yeah. >> For the session, >> I think the draft that the UBCC approved is available. So, you can see what the OUPCC is taking to the state >> as it relates to housing. Not to speak for the housing forward folks, but I think they were involved in the committee level >> at the OUPCC that we've learned a lot about has a has a committee level and they've um become involved in that as it relates to housing in those IRC and IBC recommendations. >> So they can probably give us an update too there on where that is. >> Yeah. Can [snorts] we also find out if current projects on the docket are grandfathered in under the 2018 international building code or if right like I have a big project in my district? >> That's true. Like how >> many phases did come in under the new international code or they get grandfathered in? >> Is that based on the permit? >> I don't know. I'd like to know >> question. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> the public record. >> Anyone else voting for a friend? >> Anyone else have comments? >> All right. >> Got a lot of friends. >> All right. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you everybody. >> Wonderful. >> Repres and everyone else. >> All right. You guys [snorts] ready? Uh item number eight, we are going to be discussing uh okay discussion with representatives from the Tulsa regional chamber and visit Tulsa regarding the hotel guest tax including the local economic impact of tourism investment pier city comparisons and opportunities created by potential future funding. >> Other than discussion no action will be taken for their binders. Oh, for your because your paper >> there are packets. >> No, only for you paper driven folks. >> Oh, yeah. The rest of us will write on it. >> Have to download it. >> Rene McKenna is >> No, that's okay. I just was wondering why some people got paper and others didn't. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> No, no worries. >> Renee, do you want to take it away? [laughter] >> Thank you. So good morning counselors and thank you for allowing me to be here on behalf of Tulsa Regional Tourism. So I thought what we do is kind of start with who we are. Um it's beneficial just to do this quick level set of who we are and what we do. So we are an accredited destination marketing organization. We're operated as one of four primary in initiatives for the Tulsa Regional Chamber. Our mission is to tell Tulsa's story and bring people to the city we love uh for increased economic vitality throughout with tourism spending. So you can see visit Tulsa, Tulsa CBB which is convention and visitors bureau, Tulsa Sports Commission and Tulsa film, music, arts and culture. So tourism by the numbers I wanted to show here what our visitor totals are. And I will just say year-over-year we've uh increased our numbers. So we've had phenomenal success in the space and we welcome 10 million visitors every year. Our total visitor spending is 1.43 billion. It equals 3.9 million spent per day by visitors. So while they're here I always say it's other people's money OPMs. Uh but that is a reflection of that. The economic impact 16,53 total jobs are supported by the visitor activity. And you can see the direct spending. Direct spending is uh when they're staying in a hotel and that's direct spending. The indirect spending is as they go out into the community and then of course you have the induced spending and that's uh vendors that support the indirect spending. So that kind of gives you the whole life cycle of what that is. So, one in every 16 jobs in Tulsa is reflective in this space. And feel free to stop me as you see any questions here, but it's a profound effect on our workforce over the same time period with these jobs and and what we have. So, where is the money spent? This is where the three main sectors are food and beverage. So, you can see the number here of 442 million. uh the retail, the recreation uh and shows the sporting events and all of the different events that happen. Um again over the same time period um this spending uh is all only spending by visitors. So none of this is our community. These are visitors that have left their money here in our community. And so here is the share of that total spending from the visitor impact. And I just want to point out because you'll see all dates where it reflects um in 23. These are done every other year. So you have 23 and 24. So the 25 numbers aren't out yet, but these numbers are reflective based on on that number above. So these are how tourism really and truly benefits Tulson's. So, our hotel guest supports our convention and visitors facility fund, which is the BOK center, the Arvest Convention Center, and I know you all just did a tour of that last week, and the Tulsa Performing Arts Center. So, those are the convention and visitors fund, which is Tulsa Regional Tourism, that's our team, and then the economic development fund, which is the Tulsa Authority to economic development in Tulsa's future. So we always like to say with the visitor is really the front door to economic development because once you visit then you might bring your business here or you're going to come back again and again with your convention or your friends and family. So that really gives you the journey map of of what that is and where it impacts. So these are some event highlights that we've had. Um, and it's important to note like just a little bit of a a look back, but the big damn party, we had this incredible asset with Zinc Lake and we're able to introduce that uh really to the world um with that event and showing how we can utilize, you know, this incredible space that we have and this incredible asset uh which will lead to more and more events. And then most recently u you can see what we are introducing with uh being the capital of Route 66 and uh very excited about this with councelor Bingle kind of leading the charge for us is um being able to showcase our centennial and bringing the world literally uh to Tulsa as the capital of Route 66 and having uh breaking all records with the the Capitol crews and bringing um our auto enth enthusiast us and other visitors to have the excuse to come see us in May. These are some of our big wins. Um, World of Wrestling, uh, you can see those dates in 25, what that brought to us. Big 12 wrestling championships. And we're excited. When you think about the Big 12 is now coast to coast. So, the fact that we've been able to keep this in Tulsa and have it year-over-year is a really important thing for our community. and Senate's just down the road. They um have their international seminar. And so these are some of our big ones that happen right here in downtown Oklahoma FFA State Convention Expo. This is a really important convention to have. Over 8,800 room nights, 11,000 attendees, 8.1 million in economic impact. And this moved to Tulsa from OKC in 2022 and is contracted through 26. the Arabian US Nationals and Half Arabian Championship Show. This is a really incredible horse show that every community wants and they're always fighting to get it and we've been able to keep it here in Tulsa. And then the Tulsa Shootout Chili Bowl. I can't say enough about this event to fill our hotels in January and what that has brought. And I can tell you other cities are increasingly trying to get this out of Tulsa and they remain committed to Tulsa for us. that this is a really great they just celebrated their 40th running of the Chili Bowl >> and it's such an incredible event. So Tulsa, how do we compare? Um and you can see how hotel guest tax revenues and dollars per hotel room. This is our hotel guest tax um which is currently at 5% our dollars per room. You can see the number there. And if you compare, these aren't really apples to apples. And I'll tell you why. I mean, many of these cities are they have different percentages. They have different ways of doing it. So, it really isn't one sizefits-all. But, as you can see right down the road with Oklahoma City, um their hotel gas tax brings in 36.7 million. And you can see the dollars per room. You can see Albuquerque. Uh these are really comparable cities in uh where we compete with Witchah. They're at 10.2 million and Memphis at 14.6 million. And that doesn't even compare when you look at Dallas and Kansas City because those numbers are in the hundreds of thousand I mean hundreds of millions there. But this gives you that inventory from Co-Star and the tax revenue figures from the budgets there. So the question is now how do we grow? So our current hotel guest tax rate is at 5%. Which is has been at that number for approximately 40 years. Um annual hotel guest tax revenue 9.9 million and the dollars per room the 816 number there. Now when you compare that with hotel tax rate of 9.25 25. You have the hotel uh guest tax revenue uh number there at 18315 and then the dollar per room jumps uh to 1509 as the proposed number. So why an increase? Why is this important? And I think it's all fair to say we could sit at the same number that we are and we would not grow. Um the visitor spend is a really great way to generate um and you can see the one 161 million in state and local taxes. This is applied only to guests staying in a hotel. I think that's really really important to note. It's applied to Tulsson's only during a short-term stay. So a stay longer than 30 days is covered by permanent residency exemption. So this does not impact Tulson's unless they are staying for a concert or staying downtown or doing something that they choose to do as a station. Hotel guest tax equals other people's money and it's a way to help our community. The impact of an increase, it increases marketing reach, taking Tulsa from a national to a global destination. I will say we don't see ourselves as regional. we see ourselves truly on the national stage. You think about having the Today's Show. You think about YouTube coming here and accepting award. You think about Iron Man and the big events that we've hosted, whether they've come in and brought international visitors, but Route 66 and our opportunity right now to capture these dollars is really, really important. We're maintaining a current momentum of events, tournaments, and conferences, but to establish Tulsa's international presence and ability to host events from worldwide organizations. And I'll just say we want our corporations to keep their conventions here and bring other people here instead of going to other cities and leaving their money there. So more visitors equals more money in the local economy. Increased improved quality of life for all Tulsans. And I'm stuck. >> Okay. >> So I wanted just to open it up to any questions um and anything that we can do to really [cough] educate and help everyone understand. And we have some of our hotelers here as well. Uh, councelor Decker Ray, >> thank you. Thanks, Renee. Uh, I appreciate the slide deck and um the presentation. I just wanted to clarify. I think I know the answer, but it would be good just to get it out here. Short-term rentals less than 30 days are subject to this lodging tax. >> Okay. So, like when we have a PGA moment >> and it's all the hotels and all the Airbnbs, VBRRO's, whatever, they are also going to will see that impact. Absolutely. >> Okay. And then for like um visiting nurses that might come for a 3-w week assignment and they're staying in Airbnb even though they're like as long as it's not past their contracts not past 30 days on that housing. >> Yes. >> It will be subject to this. >> That is okay. >> And I think the number on it and I'll verify but it's about 4% something like that that could be impacted. 4% of the the >> if people that are local that would be staying. We'll get that number for you. >> Oh, I guess I'm just the idea of what a short-term stay looks like has changed >> and I think we've talked about that. Um >> though they're declining and hotels are coming more back. But yeah, >> what's declining? >> Airbnbs. Like that market's kind of >> in Tulsa shrinking back. >> Like it's like stabilized. >> Okay. So people like all rushed in and then now people are like oh >> there's only so much or also now people want more st you know I think as prices have leveled out this is just just a name and industry thing people end up wanting the stability of what they can expect from a hotel >> whereas and all the things yeah >> I guess I'm just trying to make the point it is >> hotels at every level in the traditional concept of what a hotel is but it's also these shorts >> as long as there more than six rooms Jack or Five. >> Five rooms. >> Okay. >> Council Bellis, did you have u additional? Please go ahead. >> This is just one of those if you like you and you sorry if you shared a number like this that I invested. you have a hey for every dollar that like for instance because you I think part of the argument here is >> we we're investing in tourism people especially when you have these different critical needs and you already made the case of hey it generates this much sales tax but do you have one of those hey for every dollar invested in tourism the ROI for our community is this many dollars back in I just think one of like a really quick like that because I think it could be hard for people or the public to go you know you say oh it generates all these millions in local and state tax. But that's like, okay, but what does that do for us? And it if we can be really specific like, hey, for every dollar of like this pot of money that we >> put into tourism, this is what comes back into like really specifically local in that just like dollar amount, I think, can be a really helpful data point to share with people to just really help make it >> relevant or show, you know, then that's all, you know, for every$1 here, it's this many more back and that's going into people's streets, sidewalks, all those other public safety, all those other things. we can provide that. It's typically about a more or less $1,000 per household is what it ends up being. Um so we can bring those numbers back to you. And then also, you know, it ranges from for every dollar it could be up to $10. But that's your direct spend and then you have your indirect and and the additional spend. >> Yeah. I think numbers like that are just so helpful to paint the picture because I think it can be people think tourism and they don't always connect how that you know that they're like oh that's for other people >> right >> but it's like no here's what it really does do for our locality in a direct way or how yeah how does it get back to into the like the most vulnerable people's pockets or things like that >> absolutely >> I have a question uh and this may be more for the on the hotel side um I'm [clears throat] trying to form a question about um the prices of our hotels does some somebody might say, well, why do you need to raise the tax? Hotelers can just maybe raise their prices and you have, you know, additional revenue there. Or maybe if we pass the tax, it allows hotelers to keep their prices affordable and competitive. I guess my question is how will how do hotelers sort of think about their pricing structure after this tax is implemented? Um, you know, is that a Yeah. >> Are you all you all want to speak? >> Andrew, hold on. Will you come and >> hold on a second? We're getting some conflicting advice down here. >> Yes, Sarah. >> Well, the So, your posted item is a presentation from the regional chamber and visit Tulsa regarding the hotel guest tax. So, you can >> that's your >> that would be for another agenda item. Could it be okay? >> Just so >> it just depends. >> Unless you're from Visit Tulsa. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> So, you should check mother. >> That's all right. Well, >> can I keep the chair? >> No. [laughter] >> If you'll give us a better one. >> Okay. So, that's the curiosity that you know that I have, but I we'll speak uh uh another time about it. >> Uh councelor Leaken >> for future. >> Say saveless. I I think to one of councelor Bellis's points um we do need those those numbers relating to when when a visitor comes what do they leave behind >> and then how does that affect our economy going forward you know what is the multiplier effect um vi visitors come and stay we're here to stay and we benefit from um restaurants that are able to stay open because visitors did come into our city we ourselves as Tulsson's probably can't keep those restaurants open because visitors are here. They're helping. >> Same thing with hotels >> and attractions. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um and hopefully there's some some sales tax that comes into our general fund that helps us with general operations of the city of Tulsa. >> Yes. >> Um I know it's it's not going to be a well, it could be a substantial number. I don't know what that number is, though. So, whatever economist you have who can help us with those numbers, it's great. Um, I continue to hear questions about allocations of the hotel tax. So, are we going to stick with the same allocations or are we going to change? So, I'd love to have >> um some analysis on where the next So, if we get one extra dollar, >> what's the how are we going to generate the highest return for that next dollar that we generate? Um, is it better to go into the convention and tourism facilities fund because those two those many facilities >> are are really the the catalyst for bringing people into our community >> or is it better to go into visit Tulsa because you're able to generally cause the Arabian horse show or chili bowl or whatever um and smaller things as well to come into Tulsa that are going to not utilize those facilities but benefit the the city overall. So I don't know how that analysis is done but those are the two big levers that we have to pull right now and ultimately at the end of the day um if there's a time to look at changing the allocation we need to look at that now so that we can say if if we tweak it here or if we tweak it there then the impact will be more significant. We heard a couple of weeks ago that what $184 million comes um annually from um just the two facilities that we toured Arvest and be okay if my numbers are correct. >> Um that's pretty significant. How much comes from visit Tulsa with about the same percentage allocation investment. >> Um so you may know those numbers right now but if you don't I'd love for a followup. I just went back to this slide too to kind of see when you talk about the guest tax revenue and the jump that you see immediately from just raising that gas tax. Um, but in addition to that, there's that with it's it's a reinvestment back into the city and it's also to help our small businesses and our attractions and our retail and you know everything along those lines. So then those are generated tax dollars that come in in addition to that. Oh yeah, >> as the indirect spending. >> Yeah, but >> the percentage kind of break I think you're asking about the percentage breakdown. >> Well, on the percentage breakdown if if we're to >> raise Well, we need to we we need to put it through a model. So, we're going to have $ 8.4 more million dollars that $8.415 more million dollars that come in on this deal. Um, >> where's it going? >> Well, >> yeah. Where where is it going to go? where it's going to generate the most return for us. >> Yeah. And if there's some flat versus scale more Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. If if one is significantly better than the other, then why wouldn't we put more toward that versus >> where it is now? >> Yeah. >> And and there's there's an analysis, it's probably not a very difficult one to determine how we get the best return on those dollars, >> right? So, if we if all we do is go from 9.9 million to 10 million, then how are we going to spend that extra where are we going to allocate that extra $100,000 so that it benefits us most? >> Rene, would you be the one to do that analysis or Sarah would be the one? >> I I think >> we'll use we'll use tourism economics and and have >> you those numbers back for you. I mean, we these are high level. We can dig deeper, but we can also show additional cities here on how we compare. But >> I don't, for me, I don't really care what additional cities are doing. I just care >> how we're going to >> Yeah. $ 8.4 million. How is it where's the best place to put it? And how is it going to benefit us in the >> Okay. I kind of care what case I'm naming like >> it's one counselor who doesn't outside of outside of Oklahoma. I don't care because we have such a unique municipal funding structure, but I do think and I know you've done a lot of comparisons with OKC before just to know what our competition does and their ROI on that, >> you know, when it comes to attracting tourism. >> Yeah, looking at ROIs. I don't >> that might help us give a guide for what's impactful about that breakdown. >> Is their breakdown the same as what's being No, it's not. >> No, their breakdown is different, >> right? Their allocations. >> Yeah, that's what I Okay, >> because they do some maps stuff. I know their map stuff when it comes to asset maintenance and things like that looks a lot different, but >> yeah, >> that's why I said truly is apples to oranges because they all each city is unique how they do it, but we can pull together. >> I think at least for the percentage that goes to tourism, it would just be helpful to have that comparison because I know we're competing against them as a market when it comes to attracting acts and talent and >> you know conventions etc. So that might be good. >> Councelor Harper Paul Harper. >> Yeah. So I agree that there should be an analysis done [snorts] but the clarification at the end of the day how you would propose those funds to be spent is just a recommendation >> right >> we decide where those funds are actually going to rest >> 100%. >> Yeah and I wasn't >> I'm just being clear on that I know you know that I'm just saying >> and I wasn't suggesting they they make the allocation or even suggest it. I was just saying. >> Yeah. >> Well, my question my question is or my comment is that we need to decide is that a committee, is that a working group when we get to that space to decide >> these these are the funds that we potentially will be bringing in additionally and then what process are we going to engage in as a council to determine the best use for those funds. So, is [snorts] that a working group? Is that the budget committee? work in progress. >> Well, we've kind of modeled our discussions just just out here. So, the initial discussions that we um laid out were the foundational discussions. So, getting the tour and the BOK needs um understanding from chambers perspective and then as you move into developing your ordinance and what you want to take to a town hall um I envision those discussions just being here at the table. [snorts] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And we can use the one o'clock, too. We need you to anything else. Councelor Hall Harper. >> No, I just wanted to >> I've got councelor Dector Wright and then councelor Ballas. >> Thank you. As we're having these discussions and talking about impacts, I do want to just voice at this table that um there's nonprofit providers in the city that use hotels and short-term rentals for their activities. And so I don't know as we're doing research and comparisons if there's other cities that have carveouts or exemptions or reductions in what they pay on this lodging tax. But >> are they already >> trying to remember what's the lodging? >> Don't make me revise the lodging tax again. >> Say what? >> I just never want to reise this being an exemption. >> There are not >> I don't remember that being >> it's not. There are a lot of exemptions for those providers and we've kind of talked about the best way to address exemptions and honestly that trying to >> like contracts, >> right? Trying to legislate that can be difficult because you're trying to legislate programs that that go into a kind of eternity. And so, um, maybe the better way to do that is to programmatically do it. So, if the city does have a program like you did, emergency temporary housing, um the best way is probably to factor in the increase rate in that contractual relationship and and account for it that way when you're working with those service providers. So, we can definitely still explore those, but it's just can you write an exemption that is easy to implement um in the future and that easy implementation you'll see struggle just based on on programs. So, but we can write it we can write it down for one, but >> yeah, I don't know what the answer is >> of how to address it. I'm just voicing that there are concerns with providers of those services and hotels which until >> we get all the housing that we need. Hotels will continue and short-term rentals will continue to be used as temporary emergency housing or ongoing housing. I mean, we we all have constituents who stay in a hotel for 30 days and then check out and move into a different room [clears throat] for another 30 days for months on end. >> Sure. whether it's funded through government programs or just nonprofit fundraising and donors offsetting the cost. >> Councelor Bellis. >> Yeah, I did want to name to folks as we're considering the breakdown and I'm not saying I'm proposing this for this. I just want to give an example of this. The hotel be like don't bring this up again. But um you know in um St. Louis some of their lodging tax goes to lodging like there I'm just naming I don't think that that's like we're trying to shake things up in that way at this time. I do want to name that there are different ways that people approach how like lodging tax gets used and like some of other cities take it very differently. I do want to acknowledge and I appreciate councelor Le for saying I'm not like interested in other cities in that there are really unique factors here and it's not you know we're comparing apples oranges etc. Um but I just did want to just name to everybody that there are other things cities do pretty creatively with lodging tax. I don't think that that's something that like it's a lot to dig into at this time but I do you think some of that's worth exploring at some point? >> Yeah. Or or maybe we are trying to shake it up. Um well I think we talked with Sarah I think if I'm recalling correctly and it it is apples and oranges like Veil Colorado they have a lot of tourism and so part of their tax goes to you know how do we maintain the workforce that that actually you know serves the folks that come. Um I think everything should be on the table. That's what I think. And so we just have to I think talking about it in public in private is good. Um but thank you for raising that councelor Bellis. Anyone else? Well, thank you Renee for joining us. >> Thank you for having me and thanks for your support. >> Excellent. >> Thank you. >> All right. Um we are moving along to item number nine. discussion and update with the city council small budget committee and the director of finance or her design on the city's December 2025 midyear uh fiscal 2026 budget report brought to you by councelor Lake Vector Wright Bangal and Gilbert >> and oh I'm sorry Jared Moore >> Jared Moore I'm her designator today. >> Okay. Excellent. >> Serving that as >> Sorry about that. >> So, this is the uh city council budget update for uh the first six months of the fiscal year. Um this is what's provided to the uh small council group and I believe quarterly to the larger group and it's traditionally the major funds of the city not entirely encompassing of everything but the the primary ones. I'll uh go through the report. Happy to answer any questions along the way. Just interrupt me and this is for you. So, whatever questions I can answer as we go. Uh starting with revenue, we're focusing primarily on the general fund. Uh through December, December was 17 million sales tax, about 700,000 over our monthly estimate. Year to date, we're 2.8 million over for sales tax in the general fund. Uh we received January since then. It was also up. That's good. Use tax. Um that's kind of a notable here. It was interesting all last year. Uh used tax was kind of saving the day. Sales tax was under the whole time. It seems to have flipped so far for the first six months. This year, uh used tax has been down every month so far. uh but in December there was a correction from the tax commission that there had been a miscalculation for the previous uh four months I believe five months and so we were given an additional 2.5 million roughly uh in December that was to account for uh July through November. So that kind of swept out the deficit we've been running all year. Uh bringing it down to it's only about 800 below estimate for the year. So it's much closer to being on track. Hotel Motel you had just previously discussed was 80,000 over estimate for the month. Uh year to date it is 135,000 over the estimate. Moving on to expenditures. um actuals and encumbrances. Incumbrances being any kind of obligation of funds, purchase orders, contracts, requisitions, and such. Uh we're 225.2 million for the year on a uh total approved budget of 429.6 million. Um of that 225, the biggest chunk is actual spent dollars and of that it's mostly payroll. But uh the of the 225 about 93% of that is actual expenditures and a little under 7% is incumbrances. We're kind of at that tipping point when we get to like page four. Um every month we'll look every department will look inflated against estimate but that's because they're generally carrying large contracts or incumbrances throughout the year. Sorry you skip. I'll try to stay on course. Uh there was one mayoral transfer that occurred in the month of December. Uh that was moving um the 100,000 from a other services account to a personal services account within the uh TAMA department budget. Uh this was just to you're familiar we're going through the separation of with our relationship with the county on that and so the there will be a position um primarily to handle administrative work. I believe it's posted right now but this is to put the dollars in the uh correct accounting buckets so that those can be charged appropriately. Um throughout the year, adjustments are made to close prior year POS or contracts. When that happens, a uh transfer out of funds occurs. It releases those appropriations, puts it back into cash balance within the fund. To date, uh 2.9 million in completed purchase orders or contracts have been closed and returned to cash balance. Uh that's for the first six months of the year for context context. Last year, uh, we did 2.9 for pretty much the entire year. So, but I guess I'll immediately undercut that. Every month going forward, you'll see kind of a trickle. Um, you notice for December, we only close a little over $1,000. We do a big push in October. Uh, everybody gets through September to pay any final invoices on prior year POS and after that, we do a large review and close out everything that is uh, no longer necessary. So dollars can still be used efficiently and not just like hang out there on old POS not being used. The general fund cash position change, that's something we were watching this year. Um to date through December, uh revenues have been a little over 28.7 million. Expenditures for the year are 211 million. So just on an annual basis, this is not including any prior year fund balance accumulation. This is just the net overunder of FY26. Uh we've spent 2.2 million more than we've brought in in revenue for the year. Uh that is kind of anything that has a cash flow, it probably will sort itself out better as we go throughout the rest of the year. At this time last year, we were at about a negative 3.1 million, but uh keep in mind we did do a budget where we were planning on 15 million negative. So, uh your barometer right now is we're at 2.2, but we still had six more months to go. >> And is it safe to say there there are just some timing issues here? If you did this 5 days later or 5 days earlier, the numbers would obviously be different. >> Yes. You're changing constantly. >> Can I Can I ask you to You just said we planned a negative $5 million budget. >> 15 I mean 15 million 12, I think. Sorry, I'm quoting all >> I just want to be super clear. We do not run deficit budgets and I think the way we talk about this has confused the public and maybe even our own auditor. So, we do not spend money we don't have and we know that we have year-end fund balances that we can project. Sometimes we're over, sometimes we're under. Right now we're ahead of what we have projected but I I concerned when we say things like we plan to have a $15 million negative budget. That's not what we planned. >> We plan to have a balanced budget >> legally do that. We just plan to use 15 million of our unallocated fund balance. Correct. Which is within which are real dollars budget act which is legally >> which is which is totally >> and the unallocated fund balance is there because >> we pulled our expenses down. >> Yeah. And then we perform better on projected revenues. >> Kevin is writing all this down. >> It's a savings. >> Got it. Okay. Um >> I'm sorry. >> It's more like internally we need to have it because there is a disconnect in how we're talking about our budget that is confusing the public at best. >> Sure. >> Well, some putting that false narrative out there, too. >> Correct. >> Council Gilbert, do you want to continue with your I'll call on you. >> Yeah. So, um I just have a couple questions on the um Tulsa Area Emergency Management Agency. Uh the $100,000 transfer. So, is that you said that there's a um we're we're seeking someone to head that department. Is that right? Or a personnel. >> I won't speak technically on that. Um I think the mayor of Laurel may come but this was specifically for kind of just a administrative that's a kind of low-level um AT28 type position that's to handle paperwork kind of just administrative task in general. It is not the uh the director position. >> Right. So, so we're looking for a director, which I'm sure I mean that I think that that falls under Commissioner Roberts, but then that that 100,000 uh transfer, is that for one personnel or does it include equipment, office supplies? um this specifically and be sensitive not to lean into equating that we're filling a $100,000 position. Just the ordinance that the council approves every year authorizes up to 100,000, right? >> And so this is the residual funds that will not be going forward to pay the emergency a management agency. So, we just moved the full hundred thousand over. If any independent employment or any other expenses are necessary to help fill efforts going for the rest of this fiscal year, the money will be there to pay bills >> specifically for that. >> Specifically for that, >> that one that one purpose. >> Yeah. So maybe we can put on for a future item to have that discussion of the maybe it's for a one o'clock budget meeting that we get more uh detail of what that offices and what um who all is going to be I mean how many people are we looking at uh hiring to be in that position or in that department? I mean, is it going to be a brand new department to where we're going to have three or four people? >> Um, >> so a budgetary and organizational structure of city of Tulsa emergency management office. >> Okay. >> Commissioner Roberts is developing that right now. It's it will be part of the 27 budget sub or proposal. So, okay. >> They're still in the early stages of >> Right. I mean, >> answering the questions. something that we need to look into as I mean as you said at the beginning separating from the county but what are we doing duplicating services so um also the use tax um so that just wasn't a hiccup for Tulsa but it was a hiccup by the tax commission for the for statewide appreciate >> it just spike yes it was statewide >> yeah just not in Tulsa ma'am I have um councelor Bellis, Dr. Wright, and then I think I'll jump in with a question as well, but councelor Bellis. >> Oh, no. My mine's mine's quick to the people on the small budget committee. I was just going to see if there's any other insights or things that you think the rest of us should know from like the conversations you've all had or looking at whether it's budget forecasts or other things. I just know that you all have like some pretty in-depth like conversations um and have a lot more like insight from like kind of digging deep into some of So, I just wanted to check if there's other stuff you always wanted to highlight to the rest of us. >> Personally, I do you have how much how many more slides are you going to go over? You going to go over the full deck? >> I can stop now. I'm here to answer questions. >> Um, >> the front page is primarily everything that falls in the pages that follow. >> Just just to answer your question a little bit, I don't I don't know if we need to go over the economical thing, but I I would like you to just go through a couple a few more slides. >> Yeah. because I think it adds context for maybe us. We we presumably have read all of this, but for the people who are watching and the people who are here, it it really is new information and we agreed that we would have this public meeting about this information, which is critical to understanding where we sit from a budgetary standpoint. So, I think you'll get a little bit more context and and it will help remind me what I need to add to the conversation too as we go through it. >> Can I add on to since you asked the whole committee? >> First of all, I just do want to acknowledge that the four of us get to spend an hour or more usually really digging in deep and so I hope that we can do more of this so that the five that aren't in those meetings get to have more. And I appreciate you kind of saying like what are the breadcrumbs or >> um >> yeah like tell us what to really be looking at. >> Yeah. So one of the the things we committed to on this budget is when we get to a point where revenue and the expenses are under revenue, we would be able to take care of our nonsworn personnel. Right? So there's that that we're monitoring as we go. Um we're not there yet by the resolution language. So if you were wondering or if you're getting questions, I've gotten questions from some folks about it. The other thing is just this ongoing kind of convers I'm sorry you're talking about bonuses that >> yeah we had like a trigger >> stipen yeah just just to% stipen >> yeah so we're already in two quarters of this fiscal and we're you know we're constantly looking at that >> um so that might be a question you have I don't know but um the other thing is just how we continue I will say in the last small budget meeting I said as we prepare to come into our budget um discuss discussions and our kickoff which is uh the retreat are they going to be telling us that they need to make cuts because the rhetoric has been we're spending more than we have been taking in which I think is not act in actuality on paper what's happening and so I've felt disoriented over the last year between what's being said out in the public realm and what we get to see every month um and maybe we could add a tracker since to your point Jared we made this commitment of $12 million. As we're getting these reports, could there be a little like here's where we are on that? Because right now, as we talked in the small budget, we're at about a $10 million projection if we stay on track with these revenues. Obviously, things could change monthtomonth, but maybe we could have a tracker so we can see as we come into May and June where we are on the unexpended unappropriated fund balances from what we thought we were going to have until we make some shift as a matter of course of not doing that. I've heard that we shouldn't be doing that, but we are doing that. So, if there's a different way to do it >> or I've come, >> then we should shift to that in our budget process. Well, that's the other >> that's maybe what I'm hearing because I do think there is a need >> to spend more time on just understanding >> the budgeting part of unbalances and the structure. Is that something that could be like a 4:00 council education item? I'm just pinging over or or that could be a full committee item. I don't >> budget should be a one budget meeting. Okay. Yeah. I wasn't trying to like put out I would just know that sometimes we do our council [clears throat] learning at the 4:00 but yeah or 1:00 seems like obviously this a special budget one but I would just love to get a little bit more about because I know we've discussed at times how unassigned fund balances like the structure of them um why it's better to do more like one-time costs than ongoing ones but how we use them obviously it's incumbent on us from the balanced budget like fiscal responsibility end to like utilize them of course though at the same time you don't want to like so I would just love to get more information for everyone on >> well and to your point if we get to a point where we don't need to use any of them. What is the plan for those dollars? Do they go into the rainy day? Like >> what what's >> Yeah, there's there's several layers I know about >> the other thing I will say that we did talk about that I want to flag for you is that the kudos to the fire department. They're holding their overtime plan in place. Laurel's been working with them. So I know that's been a big topic of discussion and why we get to year end sometimes and have to do these outlays. So I think we've had some learnings over the last maybe three years about how to better manage those things. And so kudos to Chief Baker and his team and and Laurel for making that happen. I don't know. >> Can I ask a clarify what you just said about the fire department over time though? >> Yeah, >> this is just a clarifying question related to does some of that depend on and this is relates to like the unassigned fund balances and projections and things like that like >> where if like for instance a certain amount of FEMA reimbursement comes through then we don't need to use you know like it might cost us less in overtime. Like I'm just naming an unknown factor where it's like, hey, if there's a certain kind of disaster that requires a lot of overtime, we don't always know if we're going to be reimbursed federally for that within at least even that calendar year and then we have to use unassigned fund bound. I'm just naming that. >> I think there's some of that. I think also we have been providing mutual aid to other states when there's like a call and so we kind of tightened some of that up. I did see on this most recent storm that it did not the impacts were not to the threshold that we would get reimbursements but to your point that doesn't mean that >> but we don't always happen or not so it's like not working >> but that's so do we budget with like a buffer for that or do we just do a wait and see with the fund balance knowing that I'm just try that's like a question >> I would say we don't necessarily preemptively budget for it but we do preemptively um record and track all of that like coming up to this winter storm we had in place of tracking mechanisms and communications to all departments that any expenditures that were related to the storm, you know, code them this way and that way >> if it had turned out differently and been very expensive and then when we get to May, April or so and we're discussing fire overtime as an example, >> if it was exceeding works right now, >> we would have a good >> a good explanation to say this this wasn't really necessarily >> like excessive overtime. There was a specific cause and reason for it, >> right? Okay. Budgeting ahead of time for that. >> We'll have to we know for like natural disasters or things like that. That's why we have >> Do you want to continue on with these slides a little bit just very quickly? >> Sure. >> And then we'll get and then there's some additional questions. >> Tell me if I'm going too fast or slow. >> Uh next page is just what we've kind of already discussed is the schedule of sales tax. Uh the left hand side is uh this year budget compared to actuals. Uh we are up 2.8 A for sales tax. The middle three columns is just a comparison to last year. Um this year to last year, we're actually up 4.9 million in sales tax. That's all encouraging. The next page is the exact same thing, but it's the uh use tax schedule for the general fund. Um to date we're upside down against estimate 800,000 and uh 25,000 uh compared to this time last year on the correction this month. That's why we had that loan month in November that's showing that we beat estimate that is the correction for the previous months ahead of that. The next page is a brief table of all of the major city funds and the revenue general fund as a whole. Uh we had actuals of 37.5 million against an estimate of 34.6 million. So we're 2.8 a million ahead in the fund. It was primarily sales tax and interest earnings uh driving that. um uh A and B there sales and use we've discussed several times now. Uh the franchise taxes um we actually beat estimate by about 64,000 for the month. That was encouraging for the year. We are 278,000 below estimate. Uh we're going to we will continue to watch that. Uh E911 fund. Um there was the uh state statute change about a year ago. So we're able to uh we've had a 12 months to predict future behavior with. So our estimates have gotten a lot tighter. We're about 10,000 over estimate. It's a very small fund about 43,000 over for the year. Uh the hotel motel we've discussed those are the three funds that received the allocations. Uh together they're 80 about 80,000 over for the month. 35 for the year. >> The bottom of the page is uh the TAR fund authority for recovery of energy solid waste. Um we are 107,000 over for the monthly estimate 866,000 for the uh year. Uh we're just now getting into the time and this will be true for the tariff fund and TMUA fund and the storm water fund. Next pages where uh financial planning staff within each of those areas will be reviewing the uh upcoming rate needs to get resource recovery and however well or poorly revenues are doing this year will impact uh rate expectations for the next years but they're just in the first stages of performing that analysis. Storm water fund is same story. Uh 361,000 over estimate for the month, 1.9 million for the year. Water fund, I'm glad that I get to do this in December because that's the first month I think of the year that it's overperformed in revenue. Uh so far, as you can see, year to date, we're 3.9 million to the negative. And um a lot of people have looked at this and we all feel pretty confident in it, but it is simply a matter of less consumption, less water usage. It's been it was cool. It was wet for a lot of the year and so just nobody's all the the available water is a lot less than it was the year before. >> Sewer fund is >> January's numbers are going to look really good >> based upon my water usage. They still do. >> I know. It's like I'm not going to turn it off >> because it's going to get cold tomorrow. >> Just keep it. >> Yeah. No, I'm too afraid to find out. >> Yeah. >> Sewer fund is a similar story. Uh but it actually was doing similar but reverse. It was doing well for the year. This December month, we're actually down 400,000 for the month. Um it is the month that knocked us upside down for the year. So we're negative 327 for the year. That could have very easily changed in December and it'll be right side up again. And then the next four funds are all just capital improvement funds that are u [snorts] anchored to the sales tax. So if sales tax performed well in the general fund, it would have performed the same and improve our Tulsa and the public safety tax, transportation tax and economic vision fund. So all of those are performing well to the tune of about 2.9% over the annual estimate. We can skip six and seven graphs the same. Uh page eight is we're getting back into the territory. Touched on that up front a little bit in the front page, but uh you see that in the middle there's an estimate percentage column and an actuals percentage column. And I kind of alluded to this that for the first six months of the year, a lot of departments will look like their actuals are way of uh exceeding what we would estimate for them to be. But a lot of it's we do take into account priority POS, but it it's not entirely predictable, but a lot of it is just due to departments incumber most of their large contracts in the first couple months of the year. And so their total amount of expenses and encumbrances combined will generally exceed just kind of a linear estimate of monthly spend down. But January going forward flips back. You'll see now they're all very close compared to the previous months. >> Is that what's happening maybe on this chart with the managed entities culture and recreation office? So, uh, managed entities, culture and recreation, that is a budgetary department for all of our, uh, management agreements, uh, with culture and wreck. It's zoo, gil crease, um, mohawk, yeah, golf, all of those. Uh, the money's in covered in January, in July, and then just paid out monthly after that. So, it it jumps straight to actuals will be 92 93% like just right off the bat. But uh they all have contractual amounts so it's never going to exceed what was budgeted there. Um I would say the same for economic development but a lot of that actually um is uh quality events are budgeted there and so those only get uh spent as they come up. So it's still kind of early in the year. As those come the actuals and estimate will more closely align. Um other than that pretty much every department any uh actuals exceeding estimate can primarily be explained through large contracts um going the other direction and you'll see animal services and uh public works are both uh below the estimate and a lot of that is just they're both carrying kind of on a percentage basis high vacancies. I checked their rates as of January 1st and I think they were both in the range of uh 15% of their uh open seats for vacant right now. >> Personel, >> thank you so much Jared. >> Yeah, >> I have councelor Leaken and councelor Bellis. >> So on on this chart, this is one councelor Bellis that we talked about quite significantly. It it doesn't really help us to talk about it in the first three or four months because, you know, there aren't very many things that are unexpected, but it has been helpful to us as we get further into the budget year. And so, if finance is seeing or somebody else in the room is seeing some areas of concern, we can start to manage those areas of concern to the extent we can as a council and definitely the mayor's office to a much greater extent. Um but with respect to fire three years ago or maybe two years ago there was a situation where the expenses were encumbered. I mean they had already they had already spent the personnel time. We ended up having to cover those in a different fiscal year. And so we we want to keep our well we want to keep ourselves as a city from getting to that standpoint. and then the mayor's office ultimately is responsible for keeping that from happening um before it becomes a budgetary concern. So I think we're doing a much better job managing uh from the information that's on this sheet uh because we've really paid a lot more attention to it over the last three or four years in particular. Um, I really like this presentation because there's lots of black lettering on this in this presentation, not red lettering. >> Um, um, which is which is great. It really does paint a very good picture of where we are. Um, in comparison to the pri prior year and in comparison to the budget. >> So, um, we're in a very good position. We have available funding. I think you would have seen our cash position be very different this year if we would not have had the success with sales tax and general fund collections overall as has been part of this presentation. >> Is that accurate on the cash position element? >> Yeah. Council, do you want to follow up with that? Yeah, I was just going to check because I remember we did this two years ago and now I'm blanking on if we did this last year where we went looked across departments. You mentioned, you know, I was just thinking about those places where it has that inherent variance which you mentioned um when there's like open positions. Did we do this last year or was it two years ago where we went across and looked at all of the different kind of like positions that have been open for x amount of time or been high turnover and did like kind of a budgetary assessment. We did some we've done the last few years some high level vacancy rates. So like last year I think there were 180 vacancies. >> And so what Erica did I think last year she took there were four or five just hard to fill positions she called them. >> Um and they ranged across departments and she identified those to really understand the vacancies um and why a position is vacant. that's paid. >> You would you would need to essentially do a department by department and likely involve those departments to understand why a position is vacant. So, is it vacant and listed? Is it vacant because it's being reclassified? >> We've done a bunch looking at animal services, for example. >> Animal services, you did a deeper dive. There's a little paw print. >> Why is this vacant? That was that was probably three years ago. >> Okay. I'm [snorts] just for maybe places where we see a lot of variance there. We may want to I'm just to my council colleagues we may want to revisit by specific departments which again there are like for instance with animal services that one has to do with like those jobs are high compassion fatigue and a lot of other things I know it really can >> well and last year we talked about labor and trades was having a hard time and I remember councelor Bush said can we do like third party contracting through you know placement agencies I don't know what the outcome of that inquiry was >> yeah there's just some staff and things like I don't know again I know there's different reasons for various variances especially even if it's just based on what quarter we're in and what else is coming up or contract contracts, but for ones where it is kind of like the staffing, I I'm just thinking about how we can look at that getting into the budget season. >> Just I'll just put a pin in that spot. >> All right. Anyone else? >> Councelor Gilbert. >> So, just to make it clear, we are not in dire straits, right? I mean, we I mean, all of our projections, especially our sales tax revenue is is up. It's not down. >> Yeah. Not dire straits at all. I mean, we're well solvent. I mean, >> it's you're talking press release >> the the cynical part of the city. I mean, that's what that's the area I represent. So, I'd like to see >> Well, what I'm trying to get at is that there was, as everyone has noted um >> in this conversation is that we are running a deficit and we are not running a deficit. We we have deficit spending. >> We have money coming in. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Um over projections. >> So, we are not >> we're not we're not in a in a situation where we have to um like stop travel or have a hiring freeze or anything like that. We are we are in a good financial position within the city. Thank you. Okay. I mean, if it was my personal um budget, I mean, I would I mean, we we are saving money um in in situations and uh we have more money coming in than what we have going out. >> We still do have six months sales tax, >> but at this point, we are >> at this very moment, I would see no reason why we'd need to be firing, freezing, or furlowing, >> right? And that's the kind of the question we were asking as we head into this um you know budget season with the kickoff of the retreat. I think just also we need to continue to work with comms in our office and at the city level to really talk about unappropriated unexpended fund balances in a different way. >> The rhetoric out there is that we like dipped into savings because we didn't know we overspent. And none of that is true. Unequivocally that is not true. Yeah, >> but that has been you can Google right now and that's what you're going to see. So, we've got to do a better job of how we talk about these things. And if people are confused and don't understand, then we need to explain it. But we can't have this kind of the sky is falling, let's make massive, you know, cuts at every level. But, you know, the rhetoric's like we're doing 5% cuts. Well, really what it was is people were asked if you had to cut 5% what would it be? And then there was a go through and look at what was put on the table and pick the things that made sense and a lot of it was not picked and some departments didn't have any cuts made. So I just think we need to be very careful in times like this how we talk about dollars. people to councelor Gilbert's point in their own household budgets or business budgets are feeling a pinch are having to make hard decisions and we will too but I think we need to be very cautious about >> right >> and measured about how we talk about these things >> and this information is online it absolutely is downloaded very understandable >> we also have a sales tax overview committee that comes to us monthly and reports out as well how we're doing on the capital side so >> and that's made up of volunteers >> absolutely And if you have not reviewed that report, it's hundreds of pages long >> and it's also online >> for everyone. >> For a while there, you can learn a lot about elephants. >> Council Lincoln, do you have additional >> do you know where we stand in the budget process now? Are have what have departments submitted? Have they been asked to make cuts? Is it flat? Is it where are we in the overall process? >> We my office groups them up into three groups. Uh two of them have submitted. Uh the 29th I think is the last group that will submit. Um >> it's still very early. There's a there are mayoral instructions for giving guidance to the departments. But right now we're just in the phase that departments are telling us what they need to to do their jobs. >> Just presenting their >> Okay. So we get to also learn what those needs are. >> Instruction. >> I would ask the administration. Yes. at some point obviously. >> So, so right now it's just tell us what you need. It's not tell us what you need minus 5% or tell us what you need with these. >> No instructions like that. >> Okay. >> All right. That's good. >> Yeah, that is good. >> All right. Anyone else jump in? >> Thank you, Jared. >> Thank you for being with us. >> Um, we have one more to go. Item number 10, uh, city council discussion regarding possible selection of charter amendments. Sarah, are you with us today? >> Yes. So, I don't have anything specifically to present, but just going over our schedule for charter amendments. Um, this one is a little bit different on on the process. So, you have committee discussions scheduled for the next couple of months. And then on I think it's April 1st is when you're supposed to vote on your slate of amendments. So, that's where all of the ideas are out there. Hopefully, a little bit developed at that time. Um and that purpose of that slate vote is so um legal can help prepare um the actual items um that would be put before voters. Um so we just put this item on today to to remind of the committee discussion. Um it's up to you all if you're ready to put anything forward for discussion or not, but if you need help developing any items, Jack and I are available um to help develop those. And so I would just give it to you all if if you have concepts that you want to put out there. Um if not if we can before we leave the discussion kind of decide when is our next committee discussion. Um so your next meeting after this is February 11th. We can put an item on or we can wait until the meeting after that. Um but February and March are our times to really move forward on these. >> All right. Does anyone want to >> uh jump in? I I would recommend that we bring it back up on the 11th. >> Okay. >> Just so that we we have that continuence of uh >> Well, what are we bringing up the concepts or just >> No, just check in. >> Just check in. >> Yeah. You know, ideally in February or March, the concepts um start being brought to the table. But I can put just this general item on on February 11th. Um >> if somebody wants something specifically posted, we can do that, too, >> but Councelor Bellis, >> I think. >> I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Councilor Director Wright, did you have >> Oh, I was I was just going to say I think there's um I know I'm working on a couple of concepts and so that conversation is already being had with City Legal. I just want to clarify what Sarah shared. In April is when we have that slate that we vote [snorts] on to then officially compel City Legal to draft something to go then onto a ballot. So, we're still kind of in the like, is this feasible? Well, do we what I'm learning is there's probably already some authority that we have in the charter. We just haven't exercised as a matter of course, but it doesn't mean that we can't. And so that doesn't that's just use the authority you already have, even though in practice you haven't. And so that's been illuminating, but there's probably some new language that will be proposed. So are you saying on February 11th is where we say these are the things that we're working on or just kind of >> just a reminder? >> Yeah. But if somebody has something by February 11th that they're ready to begin discussions at the table, >> they certainly can do that on February. >> I think the only question I have is almost every year there's just kind of a request to clean up and I'm wondering the conversation we just had today about is that something we can look into? >> Yeah, I was going to say that was my thing was like can we put that I want to >> like clean up language. >> Yeah. What was brought up earlier about that redundancy? I would like to I just wanted to flag that as something to pursue >> because I felt like a consensus already. Well maybe >> maybe Jack can >> look into it legally. >> Yeah, Jack needs to look into like the >> I'm just adding that to I'm tossing that one out publicly on the list of just like that was a redundant. >> But every every time I feel like there is something like that where we just go oh because state statute something we have to do it. >> So the item you're talking about is the TMU TUB item just for those who haven't been watching the whole two hours. >> Sorry. [laughter] and then >> the reference to earlier. Yes. Um but you know that was just I just since we discussed that earlier I just publicly was very happy to go hey can we legally look into that? >> The other item that I know was on the mayor council retreat action plan um and it concerned um public safety longevity issues. Um I know that um the police department has is working through some things there. I think some of you may um be engaged in that. that is that is an item that was put out to look at um on the mayor council retreat action plan last year. Um and so I can check in on the timing of when that will be ready for like a fuller discussion. >> Um but those are the that's the only kind of I wouldn't say it's a cleanup. It is a a policy shift. But um that is one I know that's been administratively requested. >> Okay. So the 11th may be a reminder. [snorts] There will be a time between the 11th and April. Oh yeah. Of just public discussion in this forum to talk about people's suggestions. >> We actually have public hearings at the 5:00. >> Okay. >> Two, right? Two public hearings. There are >> public hearings are March 25th and April 1st. >> All right. >> So that's why I think it'd be best to bring it back on the 11th just as a reminder. But if we w if there if there is a counselor that already has something that is being worked on and is ready to be brought to the table for discussion, then we can also put that on as an agenda item. >> So, >> and especially that that cleanup item that was discussed earlier. >> Would that be on time? >> Maybe that's a check question. Well, we always encourage >> earlier the better just because >> if we get toward the end of our [clears throat] time frame >> have a dozen ideas to flesh out [snorts] becomes a little crunched. So just encourage early discussions if if possible. >> Councelor Hall Harper. >> So when are citizens able to come? They normally come and and can present at our council meeting on suggestions or recommendations. >> Those are on the schedule for March 25th and April 1st. So that's it's not too late. >> You can certainly schedule earlier ones if you'd like. >> It would seem >> right. >> Yeah. Because >> maybe put one in February. >> Yeah. >> You can add to the schedule closer to when we have to actually vote. >> Yeah. You can if you want citizens to put ideas out, then you can do an earlier one. If you want them to also be able to react to ideas that you've put out, that's where maybe that March 25th and April 1 >> come into limited to just two, right? >> No, you can adjust the schedule and add to the schedule. >> So, do we just ask the chair to do that or how do we >> procedurally do that? >> Just post any other we just add an item. >> So, add some public hearings for input. >> Yeah. >> Ideas. >> Ideas. >> Maybe early March >> from the citizens. >> Early February. >> February. >> February. Late February >> at least. Want me to put one on February 11th? >> Yeah. At 5:00. >> Okay. >> February. Two weeks in a row. >> Two in a row. >> Yeah. >> You want one on the 11th and 25th? >> The 11th and the 25th. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> And then they can react obviously in committee. We'll be having those discussions in February, March, and then we'll have the two already established ones for feedback from the public reacting to us. But sometimes they come with ideas. >> Absolutely. We didn't But we can adjust. >> Can we have uh our media team put together some flyers? Something that we can share on our Facebook to let our >> for the public hearings >> come in your input on charter amendments. >> Yeah. >> Maybe just explaining what they are. >> I think they maybe started that already, but yes, >> they did for public input from citizens. >> I think they started the graphics work for it. So, but we can ask for that one specifically. >> Yeah. Well, your graphics in general remind citizens that we have a charter. Here's where it is. Here's how you can read it. >> We do have a charter page on our website if anybody wants to follow along. >> Yeah. Under the projects tab. >> Yeah. >> All right. Anyone else? >> All right. >> So, there will not be a 2:30 and you've done so well. Okay. So, thank you all for coming and item number 11. We are journed.