you know that right okay all right 5 16 let's call the workshop to order please roll call that come from every Square here council member one here council member Cole here council member North via's absence and mayor monkey here motion to adapt the agenda to move so move Council membership second Council number one all those in favor say aye aye aye first topic tobacco ordinance good evening mayor and council members hello thank you um do you want to introduce am I introducing us last time um we reviewed the tobacco ordinances and we were short a couple council members so um Katie has come back to bring some options to add to the ordinance or change so we can move forward with it and bring it to the November 17th meeting to adopt the award so in the ordinance that we talked about last time there's some federal and state updates um that would bring your local licensing ordinance into compliance with those again they set the minimum and then there's three other pieces in that ordinance that we kind of are above and beyond but our Public Health best practices number one was restricting the sale of flavored tobacco products the second was capping your number of tobacco licenses that you wanna in your community and the third was practice 25 of the states right now is covered in a flavor restriction um are those municipalities are covered there was a map in your Council packet um a handful of your neighboring communities this on flavoring um as you know the state follows local municipalities there is was a bill in the legislature last session and there will be another one um going forward this legislative session but a lot of people say you have great power here at the local level don't wait for the state or the federal government to take care of it do it at the local level so the flavors um and that and that can look a handful of variety of ways um the next one is capping so how many licenses do you want to have in your community um some people have done some communities have done this through based on population based on just a number um some Bloomington and Little Canada have put it at zero so through attrition you'll just slide through and you won't renew any tobacco licenses um so the current ones would stay put but then as they leave or move you just wouldn't renew them and then the last one is proximity to youth orientated facilities I we heard also through the Cannabis presentation right after me but that that is not allowed to be sold within 500 feet of schools I think or daycares Parks Etc so it's kind of along those same lines of like where do we want our tobacco shops or where do we want tobacco for sale in North St Paul we wanted to cross the street from the high school probably not but we're not going to put anyone out of business but we're as we go forward where do we want these these products available so those are kind of the three pieces that are above and beyond state and federal law for discussion and for uh conversations conversation thank you so this is just like the last one I was the one that wasn't there uh Jason wasn't either all right samples so yeah it all look like yep and some of the different uh products look like and heard of some of the other ones seems to be a lot more marketing aspect feeling it can be in names of flavors a little bit about that the brochure you are a handout you gave us is quick trip and uh holiday of course that other one that's right across the parking lots next to holiday so that'd fall within the same circumference then right is that all we have for we had seven folders these are just the two examples what a quick trip Nicki's there's four two holidays yeah a quick trip Nikki which is next door um that's regular Tobacco For by polar nutrition five Target doesn't sell it was worth that many so it's seven per um is that what we're looking at all right okay whatever thank you what was that number Rain Man over here myself I had that number down it's been called tobacco Mickey's four Lounge Division Street Theater Lounge interesting sales Division Street quick trips holiday to holiday stations I didn't realize bars because fuel fuel so they the bars um can still sell tobacco products um we saw them kind of decrease after cleaning and very Arc because they were selling it as a convenience um but now that bars are so free we've kind of just seen them but they hold still hold the license all right so obviously you guys discussed they didn't really they actually they thought we were gonna wait for you yeah we put 25 gave me that it was our coverage I just wrote down 25 of the population 25.87 minnesotans are covered by flavored tobacco policies okay so um hello sorry traffic sucked you voted in favor of everything we were doing you're welcome I agree with everything he said um so I don't I have this is what it looked like in your packet um so about 20 a little over 25 of minnesotans are covered by a flavored tobacco policy some of them look their policies look a little different as they have evolved through adoption and you know 10 years ago the first policies were were kind of Cutting Edge and now we know what best practices are we know what works and they're not so Cutting Edge anymore and they're pretty comprehensive so um yes the variety of them is in the Metro um but there is greater Minnesota as well included in that okay our neighbors Maplewood surrounded what are they Maplewood um we had actually students address try to bring it up um North St Paul North High School students met with Maplewood mayor and she was not interested in doing anything let's give us three sides of them so that's their they're our closest and Maplewood is surrounded by Roseville which has it St Paul um I'm just looking at my list here um a handful of other communities so yeah well Canada does not have flavor restrictions but they have capping so they've set their cap at zero they didn't want to their Little Canada words originally concerned about enforcement um because the contract of the sheriff's department to do all their enforcement checks and to be honest enforcement of this has not been a problem at all we did a survey in Rams accounting this summer of communities that have flavor restrictions and don't and of those that have flavor restrictions almost all of them were following and they would just point to the city sorry we can't sell this there was some confusion with some um synthetic nicotine products about if they could be sold or not but again that's just education and but they were mostly following I think seven is a lot of population um I also think that in conversation with the budget we were exercising the fact and I brought it up so I'd be happy to stability and accountability for that at uh talking about a dispensary in this as well so if we're going to exercise flavors and getting rid of those in 2025 when that becomes something you there are flavors of that so that's something to be considered and if we're looking at that being a tax savings to our community by bringing in a dispensary then we're going to redo the ordinance or they're not it's not welcomed oh your flavor Canada this is what you're saying yeah okay so I think that would be the cannabis policy which is different yeah yeah separate policies um I think this was something that we talked a little bit about and it was in your presence um the amount of targeting um of Youth is um so when I'm even looking at this map um 500 and a thousand feet um you know it's I think it's going to be I'll just say it'll have to be a striking a balance but I do think that seven retail for 12 500 that way and then the Cannabis rule of thumb is twelve thousand how far right yeah how far do we want to go and that who at the cost of who well in the the other important factors we have to keep in mind are what current businesses are in place established and have been here for a while we don't want to put them out of business is so that's was it who's got Capital zero well Canada Bloomington okay so what we talked about last meeting was we can put a cap on right which doesn't mean we shut anybody down but as they go away right we don't replace them the city doesn't Grant additional licensing okay that was that's the that was the cap conversation that's the attrition conference conversation and then the carrier well they tie together if you cut Kappa three and we've got seven you gotta work their way down so you work the way you work your way down only when they choose to cities not pushing anybody it's when they choose to no longer do business profitable enough yeah we're done with it thanks get that right you got it thank you so you're looking for guidance in one two three four areas is that what I'm understanding to move forward to council with I think we said three but so if you okay so number one okay what do you got so I have adopt basically make our statute the same as to tie in with fed and state correct or yes for the two that weren't here are lost still says we can sell the 18 year olds right so oh um so we need to get ourselves aligned with um the state the the state and federal laws so I'm of clearly in support of that of of that what moving that one check once forward are you looking for a consensus Penny yes okay I agree that yeah that to me was kind of a no-brainer so I wanted to move the easy one up now it's up to you guys appreciate it now we're down to three so then I still have flavor I have cap um capping and I have proximity to school those are the three that I still have left okay got it all right my job's done what's the next easiest on your body on your list I don't know whatever I mean we've we've kind of danced around a bunch of them do we want to just focus on a topic I think we should pick you pick go ahead mayor UK let's pick um a cap cap I would like to use [Music] we'll get to it wow let's talk about camping seven is awfully high do we have did you share statistics and I apologize if you did last time and I didn't retain it is there a per capita's average out there somewhere um you know you pulled out seven per 12 364 residents I think a big part of it like she said too was poor neighborhood a lot more than other neighborhood right so they really focus on low income yes absolutely and so they aren't a lot more Yep so that's what I'm trying to throw out do we have too many do we I mean per capita do we have too many do we not have enough where where's our Baseline where we start I oh I have this document um and the chief they have it in their email okay okay sure I think you guys are kind of in the middle compared to Maplewood and New Brighton are really high okay they are very very high okay that was that was I don't think I need I didn't need an exact number unless others do I was just looking for where are we on the on the Spectrum my concern is putting putting people out of business I believe we have the two that are with polar lounge and the um the legion which is the Division Street correct um the one right next to Legion that's the gas station gas station oh that's okay okay it comes and goes it's open and it closes it opens and it closes right we're open right now it's been good so far so we're not so just for what I'm hearing we just stay at seven we just say we can't We're Not Gonna allowing anybody new to come in and get a new tobacco license if we if we cap it out no one knew would be able to come in and get a new license I'm too short yeah but if someone chose to go out at a cap of seven another Tobacco Company could another tobacco seller could come in correct because we would be yeah then we would then we would figure out the how many we want to have as a sweet spot right yeah so right now we can't add any more but if we subtract do we right now there's nothing holding us from adding anymore so we don't have a cap exactly right now they could come and okay anybody could open it up um in the 2040 plan and I'm specifically thinking of the target QuikTrip area um what is that slated for long-term goals and would a cap would a cap hurt development there I'm thinking like if a loves or a Bucky or uh wanted to get in that area to compete with the quick trip um for for to be in line with our 2040 goals um am I remembering correctly that that slightly slated for more of that type of business looking at business going into where the um per capita thank you what you were saying like if there's another gas station Supermarket that went on the other side of the corner then they would be well I think it's a I don't believe any of the big names would even consider going into that area if uh tobacco license is off the table um the the the previous history like the holidays and stuff now my information is a little bit old probably about seven years dated if they had a list of check boxes and tobacco being one of them if that wasn't available they would not look at that area so a cap does potentially um narrow down the pool of the people that might look at certain areas of our city right wrong or indifferent um so just something to be aware of I guess like when we talk about buffers in that area the city it's really close to the high to the high school and that's where I got that buffered particularly well and I was even thinking not as well I suppose yeah that would be the spot but also it could have potential impact when the 36 120 interchange goes down if it's a big a big name gas station wanted to go in there not having the cap of a tobacco could potentially but it's off the market we could get a business like CVS right oh and I'm not saying it's a bad thing I just think it needs to be something more aware of totally yes because the field McKnight field is considered one of those zones you can't do it so it'll be pretty much right across the street from any development there that McKnight field would be can I ask youth oriented was that was there an age range that was focused on or does that include daycares and things that was a part of the cannabis bill but uh youth orientated facility mayor um any facility with residents customers visitors or inhabitants which of which 25 or more are regularly under the age of 21 or that primarily sells rents or offers services or other pro products that are consumed or used primarily by persons under the age of 21. includes includes but is not limited to schools playgrounds recreation centers and perks we've got other schools thrown in there we've got that school right off a second that we're down that corner there's a school in that one we got a school across the street to here so I mean we've got quite a few schools start a lot of parks too we can look at look at the per capita but then what then what we'll take care in the corner of 11 saying breakfast there's certain distance I know that uh our city manager gave us one a thousand five hundred are there certain ones that uh different places use is or uh it's in between I think you're right on track between 500 to a thousand um I think I also we have to acknowledge that we're um in a community that's pretty developed already um compared to someplace else and so acknowledging where we're at and saying okay this is what we have I mean we're not gonna we don't want to put anyone out of business but we also how do going forward what do we want this to look like at that point isn't that just capping it it's because all the businesses are surrounding it are near educational so when you have holiday that's okay we have a list of where parks are the same thing right corner so if we moved off of caps and onto proximity yep so we decide what we're going to do on caps nope okay I think there's because that's I mean we'll be cool people out of business nobody goes out of business it just means that there's sorry they're not going out of business yes they would they would no longer have their license um so they would still have their license it would just add as usual until they decided they're not going to sell it anymore they can't say and we're going to give up our license and somebody else is going to get it it's just going to be ah okay never mind [Laughter] well today's put we just don't add any more in we have to figure out when they go what's the number if we go on that path any consensus on cap or no cap depending on what the outcome of that is then we can move to a number or in our number so I am I am I would be in favor or consensus of a cap I as well I am not hold the armed for a cap and as a reminder this is not a vote this is just an offensive and then we're only trying to give staff directions exactly yep so so the second part is I think pick a number I mean I mean because we don't know when well the city would know when a license is done um you know right do you need we need a number for a cap yeah okay you didn't you didn't look the easy gift I say something because that's what we currently have we're in the middle for eign well I mean because of my earlier statement allowing for growth I would cap it out one more than we currently have cabinet eight yeah I'm fine with five to seven yes I don't I'm somewhere in that vicinity correct but you need an example seven so that's like seven seven is seven um a license is transferable with the sale of the business correct and it automatically transfers you guys could decide that as well as well I can give you in Bloomington they they really struggled with this they have it transferable to one family member and only one time but then the city has to determine what is a family member so then it got messy um that's something we need as a direction on tonight we have to five items now on my list oh my gosh well dude you know let's just say like okay you're gonna cap it at seven do you want it to be transferable all right well give me a reason why you would transfer it oh yeah you're saying you're buying the store but by the way you can't have cigarette you can't have tobacco anymore because now it's only with me so then that person loses got to be some Revenue companies or if it's not transferable I leave the gas station in John's name and I sue to run it as a general manager for the next 10 years because I can't transfer out of his name because I can't get the license okay um and that's what used to happen when there was a cap on the liquor license in some of the areas it is people found a way to get around that uh and that's where my mind is going is sure you know no more liquor licenses but John has one so no John stays it even though he doesn't want the business I run it for him and I'm paying him I wasn't processing that properly and then opposite of that is what hake license away from Bad actors and they find someone to transfer to and it's the same bad actor that continues to take the community down cousin or a friend or whatever for me just in reference of time and hoping everything I'm in favor of my word this um not oh what's I want the city to be able to have for that exact reason I want the city to be able to have a say it doesn't mean that they can't sell the business in a license they just need to apply for places before the sale I think that works because you would still have your cap at seven it's not like you have a cap at zero right so yeah we can decide if it's going to be improperly options kind of the same thing we do as liquor licenses because somebody's coming in we want to know what they're looking to do before we Grant the liquor license that was kind of the direction that I took when I thought through this verbal upon Council decisions hi it's fair because that doesn't hamstring them they find somebody good or not taking away some of their business okay proximity feet wise that's why afterwards for the five and thousand and remember these are new licenses our movement correct you're not putting a new out of business with us we have any far away from anything just pretty much what everybody is right now they wouldn't be there if it was applying new and if the cap goes in place the only way this would be in effect is if someone voluntarily got rid of their license and someone new wanted a new location right well if they do that now we have to figure out what the yardage is the feat between is a thousand or 500. makes me feel anything babbling or moving I said or are they you know be helpful if I had a little bit more information before here and then we also highlighting right as I use oriented facility because my understanding is this is new so um if we have a general idea where they are then because we were talking about the daycare facility on 11th and then there's that 24 hour and then the world would this affect in-home daycare facilities is 25 of the I go back to the definition is 25 of the population under 21 yes um yes it probably would proximity license would have granted I'm just reading the definition to um and our fire department yeah but I mean some things considered because it's our license there's a cap on it you don't know where that license taker is unless we pull the data that's provided by the state so ideally a cap sounds nice but you're gonna contact state to figure out where these in-home daycare facilities are Excel buffer yes yeah I'm sorry yeah buffer but this only goes into effect the buffer if it's new it's new so right now we're got seven we're not we didn't do any more than seven somebody has to relinquish theirs or move so it becomes this stage after we're done to see where it is right and that's just something that for the city we're gonna have to keep in mind before granting it yep um I mean beyond the policy often I would think staff is going it would be where it comes to us virtual holiday has two parts and if you call Veterans apart across the street in this other school so to me it's that much difference between 500 and a thousand so many different schools and parks and everything else if you're screwed to again to break it down and keep things moving break it down into the question um you know what's what's the what's the opinion towards putting a buffer zone or a proximity up to be the first one and then depending on where we align I guess would be um is there a is there a feat everybody want a buffer thoughts I like it if it can be post-dated if someone bought a house yesterday with the intent of putting a a daycare and did all their rules and research I don't want to necessarily pull the rug out from under them on something that they might have worked a long time for so if we could post they didn't say this goes into effect a year from now or something like that so anyone looking to start a new business who would have enough time to do the right research um I like that and plus we're keeping it at seven so it's not like people are gonna make a rush to open up the tobacco place because we can't because we're keeping it at seven well I was thinking more the more the daycare but on the other way they're not rushing to get one too because we're not adding more licenses yeah so we're keeping that the way it is but yes if somebody started something and you know had just happened to be across from from where the from where they're selling it it's an interesting way to look at it so if I interpret you correctly you're looking at someone who wants to open up a daycare that's within the buffer right as opposed to the flip-flop yeah you know someone could have bought a house that's 400 feet away from their their you know going through all the Motions you know it usually but isn't that buffer even come into play because there's nothing new so the buffer really doesn't put the data would be new but that's just for the not just sort of a um shops themselves Me by understanding was I could not open up a in-home daycare within that buffer once we if we had a new license no it's under the license suction and it says no license will be granted to any persons or retail establishments that is within a thousand feet of a youth oriented facility I actually don't but that's the license of it's nothing to do with somebody popping up next to there I don't think that okay I was misunderstanding that that you couldn't get a new daycare license within the buffer as well I think that's a good clarification it is good okay good yeah yep after our full day work and a commute you're doing really good then I liked about time to think yeah yeah as long as it doesn't affect the daycare it's all about the Tobacco Light okay don't put tobacco then I'm then I think we'd be fine I'm fine what's up oh for everybody thousand five hundred the second 500. okay 750. there you go I like your splitting 751 lady The Price is Right enough you guys got the consensus so I'm I'm not a sport no we don't oh yeah no I'm not for a buffer okay oh okay I I like the idea buffer I don't really have a preference um as long as as long as that buffer doesn't affect the daycare side of it if it's 500 or a thousand um 750 to split the difference but yeah we can just insert it all we have to do is change it I just so it has to be again I don't I don't have I I mean I don't have a strong opinion either way that's why I split the difference between the two yeah I'm 50 right now yeah I I don't have a strong opinion as far as the size of the buffer okay 750. well insert it yep okay never flavor and I'm making check marks on my sheet yep so what this would do is re would restrict or end the sale of flavored tobacco products um you have seven licenses move tobacco stores yeah two tobacco stores the tobacco store definition is 90 of the revenue has to come from tobacco products Dynamite so some communities have oh like okay going forward everyone is included Menthol Menthol is absolutely included Wintergreen mint there's historic um targeting as we talked about last time with those products they should be included so that's what we're talking about with we say flavors um some communities have put the all of those flavored products in the tobacco shop with the intention that young people and families aren't going in there and so it's less access and appeal like we talked about last week other communities have just said no flavor products and all of those options are available in Ramsey County so everyone did something a little different but that's what they're selling it now they sell it now okay so that's not changed oh no no no no if they're selling flavor product right now they would have a year to remove those Products off the shelves that's the only one difference that we're doing what we were talking about I just want to be clear so this one now we're changing what they can do for business the other ones is new yep and all that okay so so in Roseville when they voted um they gave them I think a year and a half almost to say in the next year and a half you have plenty of time to notify your wholesaler Etc to remove these products and therefore they kept their tobacco shops at four so their their current four are selling flavored products so therefore we would cap our tobacco shop you could or say that only flavor products are available at tobacco stores only no flavored tobacco to be honest the easiest way to enforce it is to just declare across the board but officer Mal was here with me um so you threw a statistic out there that unless scratching my head on who enforces the 90 rule the state they audit they should and complaints have been issued and they have a shutdown plan interesting okay can you say as a city no flavored products through attrition like when the license transfers to a new owner the new owner would not be granted saber products but we're grandfather again ones that currently have it you could that's looking really end game yeah for me without a lot of at least talking to the people that currently sell it I think that would be as much as I could vote for without knowing how much they believe it's going to affect them of the seven that sell it I'm not saying I'd vote one or other but I would want to have a conversation with them before I'd vote more than just having it be attrition when the license transfers has anybody reached out from any of the stores has this been be notified as far as the newsletters that we're talking about this subject or right I don't really know the changes I know we don't know the changes but we know we're talking about it once we know so then they would understand otherwise people can't come in and talk about it they don't know what we're talking about that's what I'm saying so there is a requirement of a 30-day notice before any public hearing or vote and so putting this into November allows for all of that 30 30 day plus notice absolutely that's all I'll make sure it's just the first you know right now I don't want you to get in trouble no right now you're here that's great no no no we don't understand exactly I don't want to be shutting people out of this conversation if they don't know what's happening I think that if you want a flavor of tobacco you're gonna go to Maplewood Oakdale White Bear Lake if any of those places have it if you're taking the business from our city and moving into other cities to give flavored tobacco so I'm not in favor of messing with anybody who's it would be if it impacts our youth and we're being targeted like very explicitly so very clear you look at the Minnesota student survey this year you'll see a huge decline in like traditional cigarettes but a huge uptick of vape pens and all of that that is something there's really really using quite often I'm I'm looking at it from that one do you believe there's going to be a state mandate soon um where is this taken out of all the city hand cities hands in the states that takes the flavor products away from the entire state that that's my assumption is coming um and that's kind of why I'm I'm of the camp that we slightly wait for the state to do it my my guess is 25 or 26. that that is coming from the state that I mean and that's my uneducated guess just from reading and talking to people really it makes it even more they wanted more so that's another thing too it becomes this whole for me up until this piece of it we haven't impacted a business in town correct um I don't necessarily know if I have enough information to determine okay so while I'm not in favor of flavor I'll stay I'll state that I don't think I have enough information to make that decision that would impact somebody else so I guess I would make one of two recommendations um we table that piece of it go forward with everything we have have a larger conversation later or to your point I'm also of the belief that within the next couple years the state will probably come out and do something so up up until now we have an impact anyways livelihood correct so and until I have the opportunity to have somebody come in and say how much revenue would they be losing well how does this impact recognizing the whole targeting thing because again not not in favor of flavor but let's I I don't know if I can make that decision for for somebody to set a business so I asked if there's a spot where people can hold off on it then friends Portuguese so when it comes to council it'll have everything that we discussed and the flavor piece will not be addressed that that was a question I'm sorry I sound like a statement pull it out yep I have uh one thing that was not addressed on the checklist that I would like to just bring up and we don't have to do it now but after reading the uh copy that was the attorneys provided input I was looking at um any changes in which we discussed uh what violations and fines so we increased it from 300 to 500 on the first sense 500 to a thousand the third offense I think is and license are completely revoked if that's in there um there's also um I think from my perspective um if I were looking at a 500 and then a thousand and then having no license at all that's a large Jump In terms seems almost committed or non-punitive yeah it just seems uh whereas I think some places are doing 30-day suspension what is the economic and we're going to revoke those license on the third time or are we looking at is seven days Revenue or we should be doing that are you thinking of adding a small time to the second one or adding a a smaller time to the third and adding a fourth there isn't any I thought on the second one I just didn't know which way you were feeling so yeah I think that um to completely revoke the license is um based off of that trajectory is is um stretch and um I would be a little bit more comfortable at looking um what the uh economic impact for seven days versus okay and then adding a permit like on the fourth or adding a yeah I think on the notes it said some places are revoking on the fourth one yeah that makes sense of that out there for I like that when you cut my haircuts numbers so if you I have the language in front of me so um it was originally at 200 for the first violation and then it got bumped up to 300 because that mirrors state law and then the chief had asked for the 500 to go in there got it so um and then for the first violation so do you want to go back to the 300 leave it at 500 for the first violation um okay that's fine so then for the second violation it would it was at 400 state law says now says 600. and then Chief asked for a thousand dollars for the second offense at the same location within 36 months period plus a thousand dollars plus a three-day suspension of the license and then the third violation went from 500 to a thousand with a 10-day suspension I sometimes need to like literally both of them are a thousand seconds and third yep okay but it's just a longer violation and the state law does require of uh oh the state law does require a revocation thank you within um within 36 months a 30-day suspension which offense is that the third third okay and that's kind of what we are 1030 days second is a thousand seven days three three days okay so yep and then the Third would be a thousand dollars and a 10-day suspension of license it would be helpful for me in the next say that out and like a visual format like I would be able to follow it and then just we can easily leave some pictures and knowing whether subsequent violations reset the clock or not would also be after 36 months it gets reset from the first one yes everything's within a 36 months is over the window so if they had two and twelve months person would fall off the second one to live until it's 36 months came up so if I get my third violation 35 months after the first one my license suspended for 10 days I served my 10-day suspension a month goes by and I do it again am I getting another third your first one yes because your first would fall okay okay so lay that up yep please all right appreciate you information okay Dan can do it I know he can and I'm only aware of one business that we've ever had any struggles with in the city and it's been talked to it twice I don't know if that was in 36 months or not but but it's not it's like the majority of the businesses are fine yep it's always that's one percent yeah for everybody to go to the next meeting I want to review all this then with charts yeah I can do the charts so that's all I think I've got a whiteboard right here I'd be all over all right well thank you so much thank you thank you for your great help thank you all right Dan and uh I didn't say at the beginning but uh we still have an audio issue so we have uh uh we're sitting at the tables with uh with the Cisco uh polycom phone so just to let you know just in case uh people are still having audio issues we're still working on it so hopefully it's good hi sir how are you good we got a little less than 20 minutes so I can't do all the talking because we'd be here way too long so I framed this as the big picture and here's the here's the reason why I've framed this as the big picture um is that um it's not just good enough to just look at what our current year budget is it's not just good enough to look at what our financial statement is um it's just a quick hypothetical um call my wife up and say hey how much money do I have in the savings account she says uh you got uh ten thousand dollars and I say are we in good financial position she says yes we are and I said hey guess what uh we need a new furnace in the air conditioner and I think we probably got about a year year and a half and we're gonna have to replace but oh geez there's ten thousand dollars and then I say hey you know the roof is going and there's probably another 16 17 000 for the roof um so where was that in my competitors where where have I got that laid out someplace that that's the capital planning component to it and then the other component that we need to look at is that we need to look at okay what are what's my annual income um what are my annual expenditures and that's the budget and then we make assumptions based upon that and try to escalate that and so today we're just going to kind of look at um we're not going to be able to get through everything um today but we're going to look at a financial plan overview assumptions in the financial plans reviews of the strategies and developing the financial plans unknowns in future considerations and then some discussion of questions and we really do need to get to the discussion and questions because it's going to have an impact of how we want to end up handling the CIP because of CIP like I said from the very beginning is a huge driver in your financial plan in your outlook and what you want to do for your priorities your goals for the city and and once you make those decisions we lay that into with where we're at with budget with you know looking at what are our current funding is available and then project out you know what we're going to need for additional funding that's where you're going to end up seeing where we had to you know are suggesting a recommendation which you've adopted at this point in time in the preliminary budget is to increase a two percent for streets and a one percent split between um parks and Facilities um and so it's just kind of a it's a symbolic equation if you're going to see on the financial plans that there's a December 31st 2022 cash and fund balances and yes if I take that financial statement out I've said it and and hopefully for all the years that I'm here I can present after the editors are done and say hey we're in good financial position but to maintain our good financial position means that we need to do planning and we need to estimate our future revenues and operating expenses based upon assumptions assumptions may be wrong I'm not going to defend each and every one of them they're going to change and it's a it's a living document if we all perform one year versus the next plan gets adjusted maybe we won't have to have rate increases in a year and so forth and then you need to the big key part to it is you need to have the capital outlay expenditures as identified in the CIP is what we're using today um and so I am going to so I don't do all the talking I'm going to turn it over to Mary Kay because she's much quicker than I am either that will be here until midnight um pixel and Mary Kay has done a heck of a lot of work with me on developing these Financial plans so I kind of want to give her some opportunity to speak um and uh so Mary Kate um do you want to pull up the water he is going to actually take you through the financial plans that were added he's going to take you through one of them and kind of identify everything in life yeah so just as an example I thought we look at look at a lot of the a little bit of everything basically so it'd be a good example to go through so then you can just look through the rest when you have more time um so once we have that up we sure page yes foreign yes okay and so what's this financial plan does is it kind of gives a history of what has happened over the last few years and then from 2022 we figure out where we think we're going to end up in 2033 over the next 10 years so basically we start with the expenses which are about in the middle of the plan and so we are assuming that the expenses will increase four percent between 20 25 and 2033 and that four percent applies to the Personnel supplies and contractual services now four percent is a pretty standard increase across all of the different funds um and then you will see the capital line and here is where the variation is from year to year so for instance in 2023 you can see the budget for this year is 213 000. and it jumps around and if you look at 2028 it's all the way to 4.8 million which includes the water tower that year and so that line is really why we're doing this is because we're going to have these huge swings and expenses and we need to figure out where we're sitting Cash Wise and fun balance wise and to see how we could afford it um and then there's also debt in this fund and so there's interest payments and the Waterfront has also traditionally transferred out about 205 000 to the general fund for maintenance and so those are all the expenses that are going into the water fund over the next 10 years any questions on that part of it I know I went pretty quick so then the question is how can the city afford these huge expenses particularly the capital and so it's been funded by three different ways and so if you look on top you can see we're increasing the rates by 4.5 to 4.75 percent in this fund over the next 10 years and then so that's the first way that we're paying for these um and then if you look down towards the bottom there's the cash flow section and in the Years 2025 2027 2029 there's a line for bonds issued and those years we would actually recommend issuing debt and those are for the major Street reconstruction projects all the other capitals will be paid for with the cash on hand and then the third way we would pay for the capital in this fund is if you look at the 2022 column and there's the cash at the end of the year which is 7.5 million and if we go back up to the expense line for the year you can see the total expenses for the year is 1.4 million so basically there's over four years of cash sitting in this fund and so what this plan does is it also uses up the available cash and so if you look at the cash at the end of the year you can see it dropped significantly in 2027 and 2028 so basically that is paying for the new water tower if that gets approved approval and so I know that was really quick but that's kind of what we're trying to do here is looking at the expenses what departments are requesting in the CIP and to figure out like how the city could afford it over the next 10 years and at the very bottom or if we go back to the cash end of year you can see at 2022 once again we had 7.5 million and by the end of 2033 or down to 2.6 million so you know the question is how much cash should be in this fund because that's a huge drop and so the very bottom section is where we look at what we think the cash needs are for the fund and so it includes the target minimum marketing Capital the working capital for the debt payments and then the reserve for Capital purchases so the target minimum working capital we're basically taking four months of expenses for operating so that includes the Personnel supplies contractual Services the transfers and the debts so that's four months of expenses and then the debt payment is the principal payment due for the following year to make sure that we have that cash available and then the target for the capital purchases especially on this fund with a huge water tower you know the idea is to build it up and down as needed over time so if you look at that line you can see it is pretty high for a while over 5 million because that water tower in the plan but then towards the end because at this point we're not aware of any other huge expenses we can kind of bring that down which brings the cash that we need on hand though and I know that was a lot and I went fast but there is also or something bad happens I mean you look at it there's not a lot gaster it would still cover over a year of expenses um but yeah it is a question about what the council is comfortable with and how much cash the console does one on hand four months is pretty typical yeah we built on a you know on a monthly basis so we're no more than usually two months behind you know so that's where four months is good components I think the city in 2017 had a utility study that was done on the weight of waste and Water and Wastewater um and they were probably about a six months I believe four is plenty as long as you're pulling in your debt payments which first which again know where you could get into trouble as if there's it happens to be a big huge Capital need component to it um so I mean again it's kind of a comfort level but from an industry standard even after the 10 years we're still in a very good financial position we had a very good visit always a risk at any time you're you're looking at that but a point that I want to bring back that uh up is that we're sitting at 7.5 million dollars there's another good indication that today we are in very good Financial what we've done with the plan is that we're not just raising our rates just to raise rates we're raising rates and low and buying down our cash balances to be able to cover our needs and again it's a city council to make that determination that what's in that Capital Improvement plan is truly a need for the city but um hurricane has done an excellent job and laid it out very very well and all of the financial statements are laid out in the same manner some don't have as much information because funded low Revenue there's expenditures and so forth they're all laid out the same consistent manners um be consistent with the assumption yeah so I I you know to me um looking at where we're at in the budget process I think the city very good job of listening to the the needs especially with the streets and the facilities in in the Parks and and have put some Levy towards that and hopefully we'll continue to do that into the future um and then these plans um can work the next component to it is the Capital One so is there any other questions with this one just for time limits since we're we're closing in it it it's really um seriously and I mean this with all honesty um Mary Kay is one heck of a great addition for this city makes my life thank you Mary makes my life so much yeah I've got a sure and a clarifying question sure the new water tower the new water tower Tower Park is that being funded off of what we have now and we're spending down for it are we going to have to included moving forward or and do do some Bond or do something to pay for the water tower combination of rate increases and cash lowering where cash balances from that seven point right now the plan would not be to issue debt for it and again if you remember our debt for our as stuff is pretty high and so we're trying to avoid that we can't avoid it completely that's where we've just have those three years right now that's that's in there so we can start to build that cash up there from that two percent because Street's really going to be the biggest driver um in the streets when every time you do a street project you're hitting water Wastewater surface water um those ones in addition so um we've developed I think a very a very solid plan again there's going to be a future discussion you know on the PCI and you know the road index you know and the cost could end up being high like it's a combination this is my only question is just taking a look at Topline revenues um the city is looking to increase revenues about 58 over 10 years so that's if you have quick math you have 100 water bill you're in 10 years your water bill is going to be 158 dollars so that's why I asked the question where the where the funding for the law is and again if you go out if you go out and bond something again you know that you know at that million dollars over 20 years you've just paid 1.6 million dollars so where do you get that additional 600 000 that would be you know raising um the rates up to to achieve it that's where you want to be more in a cash basis component to it and kind of the interesting thing in that 2017 study for the water in the Wastewater ad for like 2015 16 17 18 8.5 percent increases across the board moving out five and a half six and a half in all the way out so what we've got here isn't something that's totally brand new of a concept um it's just kind of when your expenditures just your operating expenditures are continuously going up um you know I I think it was uh included in our waste water um the Wastewater one um we just we just got or one of the things I think met Council so it was going up like 13 um well that's one of the biggest components that that of our expenditures but um for sake of because we only have a few minutes it's really to find out from city council how we want to go about going through the CIP um in the budgets themselves um each one of the department has kind of addressed what they had in their CIP there wasn't in great detail um obviously we can go through absolutely every detail in there we could spend 8 10 12 hours going through that um with that we've got one more meeting in October we have one meeting in November and we're moving into to approval of the budget if we want to go into great detail and have departments here department heads here to answer questions regarding that it may be wise to hire a special or have a special meeting um just devoted to the CIP in addition to that we still have Enterprise funds internal service and special special Revenue funds and fees so I I honestly believe my recommendation is I believe CIP is is of huge importance and I believe that we should do it justice and have a special and devote towards that and have our department heads here to answer any questions especially when we have two things going in one night you don't get enough time so um Jenny will will look at scheduling something up for that um it's 6 28. hey can you believe that I made some we finished something up under the toilet paper it's pretty hard to believe Lauren did you did you hear that we wrapped it up that quick bye Dave thank you very much for your time if you have any questions don't hesitate to send emails um and then we can address about the next city council meeting um but really have tried to give you that big picture again um you have the most important component you have to make these tough decisions um and then I want to leave you with just one final piece uh there was a organization that had asked um for some information and then if you wanted they would send you the results and they asked some questions they're going they asked questions of uh of what the 2024 uh cost of living percentage was for cities um and then also with the property tax um increased and and if you sent in your information and you wanted they would give you the results of their survey so here's the results of the survey I guess at the end of the day when I really look at it us sitting at 8.5 isn't out of line um I I know it's a tough it's tough but what I'm saying is that we're not the only ones who are faced with um you know needs um but I just thought I would share that information with you um so you could have absolutely right and there were there were some Rogers there's a 24 24.4 33.6 foreign usually when you see that huge increase like that it's usually because they've got some big bonding issues and that's what we're trying to avoid with the time people keep our debt at least level to where we're at um and move forward from there that's very important stuff thank you thank you appreciate the information all right well thanks guys thank you Workshop second for one council member Cole all those in favor say aye all right so do we sit here yep we can't go anywhere because we're both um